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Description

When you’re a creator  – whether a movie producer like me or a famous pop singer/songwriter like Belinda Carlisle from the Go-Go’s – the pressure to constantly make award-winning content starts to weigh you down. If you make a #1 song or a box office hit…it only gets worse. How can we actually regain control of our lives and creativity? How do we reteach ourselves where our value really comes from? Belinda Carlisle and I tawk.

Let’s Tawk contains mature themes and may not be appropriate for all listeners.

Keep up with Jaime on Twitter at @JaimePrimak and on Instagram at @jaimepsullivan. Watch her Facebook Live series – Cawfee Tawk – here. And stay up to date with us on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram at @LemonadaMedia.

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Transcript

SPEAKERS

Jaxson, Belinda Carlisle, Jaime Primak Sullivan

Jaime Primak Sullivan 

Hello, everybody and welcome to this week’s episode of Let’s Tawk. I am as always your host, Jamie Premack. Sullivan, I’m joined by.

Jaxson 

Me, Jaxson.

Jaime Primak Sullivan 

Why do you say me first?

Jaxson 

I’m joined by..

Jaime Primak Sullivan 

Jaxson. And we are so excited to have you guys here with us. I hope you’ve been enjoying the podcast. I know we have been having a great time we feel very lucky to be able to do this. On this week’s episode, we are going to talk to the legend, the pioneer of the all-female rock band, the GoGo’s Belinda Carlisle herself. We are so excited to have her here. I Jackson, are you familiar with Belinda?

Jaxson 

I’m familiar with her hits. I would not have the same level of discography comprehension that you do. But I know the hits.

Jaime Primak Sullivan 

Why do you like have to work SAT words into like every sentence? Who says discography?

Jaxson 

Look, I’m gonna Wikipedia guy. Okay? And it says discography on Wikipedia. And so that is where I got that word from.

Jaime Primak Sullivan 

Lord of Mercy. Anyway, yeah, so I certainly being a product of the 80s, Belinda, and the Go-Go’s were the soundtrack to my youth. And then her solo stuff in the 90s was everything to me and still is. My kids know her music because of me. But for me, she and I are kindred spirits. In a lot of ways. We deal with a lot of the same traumas; we have a lot of the same internal battles. And she seems to have really come out the other side. So I’m so genuinely excited to be able to talk to her and say all of the things that I’ve wanted to say but really listen, like, talk to me, he and she’s my Obi Wan. No. Is that it?

Jaxson 

Are you Luke Skywalker? Because Obi Wan personally trains Luke Skywalker? Like are you saying no, maybe she’s my Yoda. Well, Yoda also changed Luke Skywalker in the second one.

Jaime Primak Sullivan 

All right, Jaxson help me out here.

Jaxson 

Yeah, I mean, you’re definitely like..

Jaime Primak Sullivan 

All right, she’s my person who’s come before me. She’s the person who, you know, has the knowledge.

Jaxson 

I don’t know why you jumped to the Star Wars when you haven’t seen it.

Jaime Primak Sullivan 

Because I always expect you to sweep in and absolutely fill in the blanks.

Jaxson 

And fix your metaphor.

Jaime Primak Sullivan 

That’s my Star Wars metaphors. No. But in all seriousness, Let’s Tawk is really a stream of consciousness. For me. It’s a page out of my journal. It’s a longer form, audio first Coffee Tawk. But every once in a while, I get to have conversations with other people that are meaningful to me that I think are the conversations I needed. There’s a new Lemonada show I think you’ll like it’s called V INTERESTING. It’s hosted by TikTok star V Spehar. or they host the popular account under the desk news which features news digests in about 60 seconds. But sometimes V needs more than a minute to bring you the news, which is why this new twice weekly show is so great. On Tuesdays, we will highlight stories you may have missed in the news cycles. On Fridays, they’ll go deep into complex issues that matter to us all. Even if they aren’t dominating the headlines. The show is out now search for V INTERESTING with V Spehar wherever you get your podcasts and be sure to follow so you never miss an episode.

Jaime Primak Sullivan 

Please welcome, the icon, the pioneer, Belinda Carlisle. Hi, thank you so much for agreeing to talk to me. I’m so grateful. So I learned something actually, that I had a misnomer about you. I’m actually from freehold where a lot of […] live in New Jersey. And when my older sisters went to high school with the […] in Freehold, I always thought that you were a […] but actually what I learned is that your stepfather?

Belinda Carlisle 

Yes, it is. Yeah, I mean, I’m actually Belinda Carlisle. That was yeah, my real father’s is Harold Carlisle, who was passed away and then Walter […] is my stepdad. He passed away about a year and a half ago. But yeah, so I’m kind of a […]

Jaime Primak Sullivan 

Yeah, sure and by the way, like, nobody’s lobbying to be like honorary […], you know, it’s not like it was, I don’t know, some like Tom Cruise like, well, I’m kind of a Cruise. Right? Like, whatever. But your name is actually Belinda Joe, which by the way, is like the cutest name. I get why it wasn’t very like rock and roll, but that’s a great name.

Belinda Carlisle 

Well, my mom actually it was funny because she named me after a Jane Wyman movie called Johnny Belinda about a girl who is deaf and dumb, I’m not an […] laugh, but that was what I was named after. Is that movie. So and she reminded me of that the other day, actually, but Belinda Joe, it’s a great name. Very great name.

Jaime Primak Sullivan 

It’s a great name. Again, I get why it’s not super rock and roll. You know? Because it has almost like a Southern undertone. Well,

Belinda Carlisle 

Well, my real father was southern.

Jaime Primak Sullivan 

Oh, really. I’m from New Jersey, but I live in the south. I live in Birmingham, Alabama. So my children are southern. But I didn’t give them very southern names. Jaxson’s southern. This is true. So I feel like coming up, you know, there are so many things that we talk about now. There’s so many resources to have conversation. And it’s cool to communicate, right? But when you are coming up, we didn’t have that, you and I share abandonment trauma, daddy issues, right? All the glamorous things that are so gorgeous Belinda. And people in the 80s didn’t talk about abandonment trauma, they didn’t. So my goal with this episode of Let’s Talk is to help you get comfortable enough to get a little uncomfortable. And certainly not to talk about the things you and I have already agreed we don’t need to discuss. But I would like to talk to you about sort of when you were starting the Go-Go’s and you are making your dreams come true. And it’s all starting to happen for you. Where do you take that family alienation and that abandonment, trauma and the frustration with maybe not getting along with everybody and maybe not agreeing with everybody’s choices, and now you’re becoming successful? And there’s sort of this pressure on you without the resources that people have today? Where is Belinda? In the late 70s, early 80s, like mentally, where is she?

Belinda Carlisle 

Well, I didn’t really think so much about you know, my dysfunctional family and the way that I grew up with a father that abandoned me, all my father figures I had, you know, an issue with one dropped dead, one came on to me, one abandoned me and then my real father, he, you know, he was an abusive alcoholic, you know, so my brother and I were physically abused, but you know, I mean, it made me really, really tough. It had the opposite effect on my brother, you know, but it made me really, really tough. And I didn’t really, ever really realize maybe the effect that all that had on me until I remember when you know, the Go-Go, while I was like I was born a contrarian. So my father, you know, I was always told I was this or that and not very nice things.

Jaime Primak Sullivan 

Can you really quickly, can you explain for our listeners what a contrarian is?

Belinda Carlisle 

If you say the sky is blue, I’ll say no, it’s not, it’s pink. Okay. I mean, I was born that way. I mean, and that kind of that that has served me very, very well. I have to watch it because I still am that way. And there are times when it doesn’t serve me very well. But I, you know, I didn’t think about you know, I never really, I was never ever consider myself a victim. You know, I because I was tough. I kind of just plowed through things and I think what the earliest I really realized the effect of my daddy issues was probably when Beauty and the Beat went to number one. And I was like, Well, wait a minute, where did that come from? I don’t deserve that. You know, I didn’t feel that I was worthy of that kind of success. But also at the same time, you know, and that fit into what I was the sort of what I had been told when I was growing up by my father. And I realized a lot of it came from my father, and a lot of my bad choices and men came from my father, you know, looking for male approval, and that in my line of my choices were about that, my ability of not being able to really understand love came from that, you know, my addiction to chaos came from that. So I you know, but it was something that only sort of, I realized that it was a big issue for me. Probably in my mid-20s. And that’s when the drugs came in.

Jaime Primak Sullivan 

So same exact situation for me, only I had the opposite. I had a wonderful father and a more problematic mother. But my father tragically died when I was 17 years old, of lung cancer. And I didn’t realize that what I was dealing with was abandonment trauma. I just thought it was grief. Right? Because that’s what they tell you. I didn’t really have tools then or any dialogue to understand. I know you found Buddhism. And I found Catholicism. When I was dealing with the trauma, and I didn’t understand what it was. I also made a lot of bad choices with men and women, and drugs. I turned all of that chaos inward. I thrived in chaos. I started a lot of trouble. I sabotage relationships, friendships. I got very tough as you did, I put up a suit of armor so and I was prepared to hurt anyone before they could hurt me. Well, I made every bad choice you can make with men until I met my husband. And then I said He’s everything I would not choose, which is why I should choose him. And you’ve been married how long to your husband?

Belinda Carlisle 

Well, almost 38 years. So I mean, you know, I say I just thought he’s a saint. And he has a it’s very you know, but I am too. So he’s was very, very involved. And, you know, I mean, I think I’m a more complicated person than a lot of people. But he understood that and he was in there for the long haul, I do remember, I mean, you know, so you talk about sabotage, I sabotage my happiness and wished it had been the most happiest time in my life. When the album went to number one, I sabotage myself with threads because I didn’t think that I was deserving of that. So, you know, my life, you know, I’ve sabotaged a lot of great things and I’ve and knowingly, at the time, I was doing it. So I mean, he’s very, very understanding of, of, I guess he I’m a little bit more complex than him. He’s a bit more evolved than I am. And he was in there for the long haul and thank God, you know, I mean, that the drug thing was a really I mean, I don’t know if I was had continued I don’t know whether he would have stuck around because it was pretty, pretty grueling for everybody around me towards the end. So, but yeah, he’s there. I mean, our relationships better than ever, we’re best friends. The pandemic really brought us closer together. I know a lot of people broke up, you know, but we had a blast, I made it we made it wasn’t really fun being locked down in Thailand, we were stuck there for a year and a half. But we made the most of it. And we laughed every day, you know, so, but he, I realized that I needed to get help for my daddy issues after I got sober. Because those issues of abandonment, and, you know, father stuff can really, can really mess with everything, you know, and you don’t really realize it, you think, and my real father, he abandoned me. And then he tried to extort money out of me when about 15 years ago. And I was like, I, you know, it wasn’t a big surprise, but it was a big disappointment. So, you know, I was like, okay, well, you know, he did his best my mom did there. But they all did their best. And, you know, it wasn’t very good, but they did their best. But my therapist said that’s, you know, you can say that, but we you have to do more work with that. And I’ve done a lot of work with it. And I think I can honestly say that. Yeah, as far as my father issues go, I think they’re pretty much dormant to be honest.

Jaime Primak Sullivan 

Well, I aspire to that. And first and foremost, I want to say a couple of things. One, I am so very sorry. That all of that happened to you. And that, though that that is the thread that starts what we you and I have in common, two, I would like to say congratulations on your sobriety. It is a beautiful gift to give yourself and to your son, and to your husband. And the people that love you. I mean, you owe absolutely nothing to your fans. I understand that I get it. People always say my fans, my fans. But when it comes to your mental health, and your physical health, you owe it to yourself and to the people who will be with you at the end of the road. Fans truthfully, are self-serving, the fandom is self-serving. Yes, they support us, us meaning the bigger picture not like me, I you know, I’m an honorary Go-Go, but I’m not like a Go-Go,. But there is a lot of outside pressure to keep the train moving. For everybody that makes money off of it, for everybody that wants, you know, needs it for their own ego to keep going, you know, and there is a cycle of if I’m not creating, do I still have value? You know, as somebody who like writes and produces in Hollywood, people would say, don’t ask what you know, a singer or an actor, you know what they’re working on? Or if you’ve seen anything, and I always thought well, that that’s ridiculous. Why wouldn’t you ask a creative, you know, and I understand now, because it is a burden of pressure to someone who is an artist to constantly be asked, how are you serving us? What are you creating you have you been in anything that I would have seen, it’s like an anchor that constantly weighs you down. So many thoughts going through my head like I can’t imagine dealing with all of what you were dealing with and having to go on stage as much as I love the song selfishly and always be upbeat. You know, like, men get to sing like, you know, like Rage Against the Machine and like, like Fuck The Police and like all of this, like sort of very angry music and women are expected to go out and sing like happy, like upbeat music that’s gonna save the world. And so I just can’t imagine in my darkest times, going out and having to, like, was there ever a time where you thought, if I have to sing We Got The Beat right now. Like if I have to go out there and fucking get everybody on their feet and clap their hands. Like one more time. I’m gonna go postal. Like you could tell me you could be honest. It doesn’t mean you don’t love the song.

Belinda Carlisle 

Well, I mean, no, yeah, I mean, singing, We Got The Beat or Heaven. I just think of people’s love for those songs that I find kind of like, okay, again, again. But when I see people’s reactions, you know, that makes the boredom. I don’t even call it boredom. It’s redundant sometimes, you know, but you know, but I mean, we were saying as far as like, the pressure towards the end of life before my sobriety, I was in release, sort of I had always been defined by what I do, once. I mean, there was a book that I picked up called The Art of happiness by the Dalai Lama. And I really recommend that for anybody who might be at a crossroads in their life when they’re sort of confused. And I was just turning 40. And I was just dropped by my record company. I didn’t know what I was going to do. And then I just, I made a realization with this book that I was, I’m not defined by what I do. And so I started like, that’s when the really interesting part of my life began. And, you know, I mean, it’s funny because I was planning on really, not as soon as retiring, some are retiring. But I mean, the universe won’t let because I have I’m busier now than I’ve ever been. So I just kind of go with it. And, you know, sometimes they’ll say, oh, God, we haven’t seen you for a while. What are you doing now? It’s like, well, I still do sing. You know, I used to be really, I used to be kind of annoyed by it. But because it’s like, well, yeah, I mean, I you know, I am, I still do, I still sing. And I’m really blessed that I could sing as much or as little as I want to sing. So that’s kind of what I am. What the way I answer it, but yeah, I mean, I know what you mean about it. I mean, I used to get really annoyed by what I did. Before I figured out that I am not defined by what I do.

Jaime Primak Sullivan 

Well, again, it sounds like I am, I feel like I am one beat life beat behind you because I am, I have gotten to a place where the joy in what I do is gone. It feels not the podcast but my day to day job, the light, my porch light that was on as a creator is the bulb is out. And I hear stories, even the thing you just said like I was dropped by my label. I want to just explain to listeners what that means and what that feels like. Because we take for granted and entertainment that we people know what that means. It’s a little inside baseball, right? A label is essentially the company that fronts money for you to make your albums, they invest in you as an artist, just like a studio, in my line of work, invests money in developing scripts based on my ideas, they hire writers, they produce the movie, they give us the budgets, they pay the actors, and they recoup everything through release of albums, they recoup everything through release of movies, and you have the expectation is that you will continue to promote and you become a donkey of sorts, a hamster wheel answering the same questions and all of the things and by the way, guys, if you listened to the first episode of Let’s Tawk where I talked about impostor syndrome, and all of the things you heard me say and the invasion of privacy in the second episode, the audacity to we have become desensitized as a society because of the disparity of wealth in this country, we look at someone like Jamie Primak Sullivan or Belinda Carlisle, we go oh, cry me a fucking river, because you guys are successful. And you guys have had success. And oh, were you dropped by your label? Or oh, did you have to do too many interviews?

Jaime Primak Sullivan 

And what I’m saying is, it will go back to the director that I spoke about in episode two who said of the Fast and Furious director, this job is not worth my mental health. And it goes back to that, we are brave enough now to say, X, Y and Z so when we get honest about the fact that we get on a hamster wheel for what we do, that hamster wheel comes with so much expectation. The numbers are on you, the sales are on you. The videos are on you. The body is on you. The face is on you, keeping the band together is on you, keeping the actors happy is on you. It’s still wifing properly is on you. Parenting is on you. There is so much on you and all people see is but you’re Belinda Carlisle, you’ve got the beat, your lips are sealed. What’s the problem? What do you mean? What hamster wheel and everybody else is going, we invested we put up the money. This is everything you wanted, keep going, keep going, keep going. But I want to go back to I’m sorry, I digress about being dropped from your label because this is really important for people to understand why Belinda coming to the conclusion at 40 and me not yet but me close at 45 that we are not defined by what we do is that to these industry, in our industry to these companies, we are a business. They don’t love us. Executives come and go, the same people that signed Belinda at the label, the same people who bought my movies are not even there anymore. We are a business to them. And so they love us when we’re up and they offload us when we’re down. And that is the nature of our business. And I understand that that is our mind understands that, but your heart is attached to your mental health, your emotional well-being so when you run on a hamster wheel for a label, when you give so much of yourself because I want you guys to understand, there is no mental health investment from the people fronting the money. They are the business. We are the ones giving emotional capital. We are the ones away from our children. We are the ones away from our marriage. We are the ones whose families are jealous of us or who are have issue with us. We’re trying you know, the pressures on us not on them. They write us off once, the movie didn’t work. The album didn’t work. And then you get the call. Yeah. And they say, we’re going to part ways. When you’re dropped from your label, where are you as Belinda in that time? Where are you mentally, emotionally? Like, do you feel like it’s over for you at that point?

Belinda Carlisle 

Well, I was really lucky, because I wasn’t based in America where it’s a lot harsher as far as ageism and sexism than it is in the UK. So I was let down gently by my record company, but still, I was kind of panicking. Because I was like, What do I do now. And I flew to LA immediately to me with new managers. And, you know, I was kind of just all over the place, I wasn’t really sure. I wasn’t really sure what to do. So I don’t know I was, at that time, I had been doing a lot of soul searching and realized that I remember I did an interview with this is really important actually, I did an interview with The Daily Mail in the UK. And the journalist saw right through me, she saw a woman that was really struggling with her identity. And I, you know, as harsh as the article was, she was 100% right. And I knew I had to do some work. And at that time, I was searching the different types of Buddhism, because Buddhism are always really resonated with me. So I started chanting and the chanting, really, sort of a burned, as I say, a lot of karma. But it also I really do believe it was it’s like a mirror into yourself. And I realized that was secondary, my album, whatever I was going to do, you know, creatively was secondary to a lot of the personal stuff that was going on. So I mean, of course, I mean, I was all kind of all over the place. I was, you know, I didn’t know what I was going to do. You know, I thought I didn’t think life was over. But I was scared. I thought, well, I’ve always liked interior design, maybe I can do that. You know, maybe there’s something else I can do. But now in retrospect, everything happened perfectly the way it was going to happen. Because if it hadn’t been for me being dropped, I wouldn’t have probably gotten sober. I probably you know, and in my life after when I was dropped, that’s when my life got really interesting. All the stuff beforehand I was on that hamster wheel. You know, the pressure of selling records you know, having to live that way since I was basically 18, at 40 I was kind of exhausted by it and I needed that time to really look inward and you know being dropped allowed me time so I wouldn’t have had it otherwise. So it all happened perfectly.

Jaime Primak Sullivan 

Was your son born already?

Belinda Carlisle 

Yeah, yeah, we were living in London, it was on 1998 when this one was dropped. Because I was 40 years old. It was like the day after my 40th birthday. And pop music is very, very young. You know, it’s you know, the Go-Go’s were separate. I’m talking about my solo stuff, because, that’s what I do most of the time anyway. So the Go-Go stuff was always there. I always kind of did shows and stuff but that was a kind of secondary to my solo stuff. So but yeah, my son was born living in London, I was a total mess. But um, you know, I always, like I said earlier in the interview, I’ve always been really tough. You know, and, and all that data damage really toughened me up. And I was just like, okay, you know, if this doesn’t work, what does work? And you know, I’ve always, I always knew that I was gonna get through it. I didn’t know how, but I knew I would. And like I said before, I mean, now it’s at 63 I’m as busy as I was, you know, way back, you know, in the late 80s. So, and I would never have expected that. So life is very strange. And you know, you just have to really trust that things are going to work out. And that’s what I’ve always been told. And that’s been my experience.

Jaime Primak Sullivan 

And so you’re 63 Now, which is amazing, because you look stunning. I don’t even know what that means, though. Because what is the expectation that 63 though? But what is the expectation that we’re supposed to look like, old ladies with like warts on our nose or something like, you look great for 63, okay, but what is 63? You know, people say Jamie look great for 45. Well, what is 45 supposed to look like? I don’t know. But your son? Can I ask one personal question? Were you always sort of the one and done, Mom? Did you always know you only wanted one? Or was that more like you couldn’t have more? Or was that just what works for your schedule?

Belinda Carlisle 

Well, you know, I’m the oldest of seven. And I have been taking care of babies since you know, I don’t know what else. So I think one was one was fine for me. And that was enough. And I’m very, very happy with that. There was like a few minutes when I thought maybe we should have another one. And I actually went to a doctor in London to see what it would take. But I’m so glad because it would have been, that was when I was really sort of struggling with things so it wouldn’t have worked out. So one is an app and I remember Jimmy Ivan, here’s a big music mogul. He said one is one, 2 is 2, 3 is 12. Right? And I always remember that. So I thought well, you know, maybe two but no, no. But isn’t that funny? I’ll always remember that out that ever stuck with me when he told me that when I was like 22 years old. 1 is 1, 2 is 2, 3 is 12.

Jaime Primak Sullivan 

That’s what it feels like herding cats. And your son is so handsome. I mean, what a good looking boy. Well, man, he’s the man he’s in his 20s. He just turned 30? And by the way, I was just curious because I think I had a lot of children because my mother was an only child and I think it affected her. Some people thrive in that space. Some people feel incredibly clingy and lonely, which was more of my mother’s route. And I just wanted my kids. I always knew I was one of four and I just wanted a lot of siblings in the house, I wanted a lot of and, and like I said, Now I feel like I have 12. So I’m with you on that. Do you think that your son and tell me, is his name, James? Does James, do you think he really gets, like, I know that my kids kind of get what I do and who I am more because of the way their friends react, so that my kids are always like, oh, yeah, cool. I don’t know. Do you feel like James? Certainly. It’s 30 I’m sure but growing up, do you feel like he really got who you were to the world?

Belinda Carlisle 

Oh, he totally got it from an early age. You know, I used to bring him with me on Go-Go’s tours. And he loved the tour bus. And, you know, he just thought it was all you know, he loves it. I think he Yeah, I think he understood pretty young, you know, and because I was always toting him around and bringing in places so yeah, he loved it. And he still loves it, of course. But he always appreciated you know, my husband. His side of the family is big entertainment families. Grandfather ran a big studios in the UK at […] Pictures. Oh, his mother was a big radio host Pamela Mason, who was like the first feminist. His father’s James Mason the great and British actor.

Jaime Primak Sullivan 

And James worked with Kubrick, he worked with Hitchcock. I mean, in my world, James is a very big deal.

Belinda Carlisle 

Yeah, so he’s always grown up with that sort of entertainment vibe around. He loves it. And you know, he just entered i.e. interviews people for his internet show that he does and so he has a little bit of it in his lead to.

Jaime Primak Sullivan 

So that’s like, you know, you seem I don’t know, we only know what we know, from social media. But James, your son seems to be extremely well rounded, and genuinely happy. And I wish that for him always.

Belinda Carlisle 

Oh, sweet. That’s important. Yeah, that’s really that’s, that’s the most important thing. You know, I mean, it’s, yeah, he is really happy. And he’s very, very grounded. You know, I can’t imagine what it must be like to be a young person in this world now, you know, with social media and all the pressures and everything. But, you know, he’s right in there. And he’s tough. I mean, you know, he’s always been very politically active. And he’s always been an LGBT activist. And since he was 14, when he came out, so he’s his own person, for sure.

Jaime Primak Sullivan 

Well, his mother is a gay icon. I mean, there is not like, I mean, you can’t, you know, I don’t think one thing correlates to the other. I know, you said James came out at 14, right? I mean, but, you know, there’s like a list of women, that the gays just love. You know, it’s like you and Madonna and Dolly and Britney.

Jaxson 

And Laura Dern.

Jaime Primak Sullivan 

That’s not a thing.

Jaxson 

That is absolutely a thing.

Jaime Primak Sullivan 

Okay. I was gonna say Gaga. So about singing, because it is your, because, you know, like me with my ideas might be so my sort of vocal cords or my brain, right? My big ideas. I would imagine there came a time for you were singing lost its, it became a business and it loses its joy. Has it come back for you? It has the joy to sing come back?

Belinda Carlisle 

Oh, yeah. I mean, I, you know, like I said, we’re going to talk much about drugs. But when I got sober, I threw myself in it was that was, God, 2005. I threw myself into my project that I really couldn’t quite get together because I was all over the place. And it was a French job. I had been living in France. I lived in France for 24 years. And I threw myself into that project. And it was the first time in my whole career that I was able to work from the heart. And I had no attachment to any outcome. I was with the record company that let me as creative as I wanted to be. And it happened to be a really a lot of critical acclaim and it was very successful in Europe. But that’s what I wasn’t, I didn’t even really care about that it was being able to work in way that it was fun again, I felt with my, and a lot of people like my album before that a woman and a man, it was my last album I did before I got sober. But I listened. I can’t even listen to that. Because to me, I can hear in my voice that I could have just phoned it in. You know, and it wasn’t fun. It was a lot of pressure. I wasn’t into it. My heart wasn’t into it, because I was just not in a good place. But with this French album, it was like, Wow, I love it again. And I never want to work any other way. I can’t, you know, people have complained, well, why just do an album in English, or my album after that was in Sanskrit, because I chant every day, or why don’t you do an album, why do you have to do an album and Sanskrit? Why can’t you do it in English? And it’s because I don’t want to do it in English right now, I might want to do it. I just want to make me happy. First of all, if it makes everybody else happy, that’s great. But I have to make myself happy first. So, you know, I did a French, you know, a lot of people were annoyed about the Sanskrit an album. And everybody was really annoyed. And I thought, Okay, I think I’m ready to do an album and an English now, which is what I’m doing, I have two projects going. So and because I want to, and not because anybody else wants me to, it’s because I want to. And that’s the only way I can work or else that’s not inspired. It’s like, why bother?

Jaime Primak Sullivan 

You’re absolutely right. And listen, we all want success in some level, because that is a validation that our creativity works, but not to the point where we hate our own creativity. And I okay, so a couple of sort of rapid fire fun questions. I think that like; I’ll kick myself if I don’t ever ask you. You’re walking down the aisle of a supermarket in Los Angeles. And heaven is a place on earth comes on.   Do you sing along with yourself?

Belinda Carlisle 

No, I don’t, because that happens all the time. But I smile. And sometimes as I’m walking in Trader Joe’s or as I’m walking into the […]. So it’s like, hey, you know, and actually here I live in Mexico City. So I walked into the salon here and they have no idea who, actually the Go-Go’s are pretty big here. I walk in and heaven comes on. It’s like I had to say, that’s me. And I never did that. But I just, I wouldn’t have to tell them that because that was like, wow, I was really shocked. It was playing in Mexico. And they were like, oh, you know, so. But yeah, I get excited. I’m not jaded about that kind of thing.

Jaime Primak Sullivan 

That’s great. Okay, so someone comes up to you, and they ask you if you are who? Like do you ever get like the wrong person, but like over and over?

Belinda Carlisle  

Actually the funniest I get Priscilla Presley all the time, oh, my God. But the funniest thing is I was at LAX and I just landed, I was like at the airport and this guy TMZ right. comes up to me and says, What do you think about the casting of the new Elvis movie? And I said, why this movie? And then come on Priscilla and I said, I’m not Priscilla Presley. But thank you very much, you know, so, but I get that actually, when I’m traveling a lot like yeah, not in America, but I’ll get it in Europe quite a bit. I get an Asia all the time I got in Japan and when they came up and asked if I would, if I was Priscilla Presley, and it was funny because I went to Priscilla’s house. When I was pregnant, I was invited to have dinner at her house when she was with her boyfriend, Marco Garibaldi. And there was a lot of similarities. I have to say. I was like, wow, you know? […]

Jaime Primak Sullivan 

Well, there are worse people that could be.

Belinda Carlisle 

A lot of worse people.

Jaime Primak Sullivan 

I get a lot Soleil Moon Frye. A lot of people think I’m Punky Brewster. Or they say are you one of the jersey house? Are you a housewife? And I just go, no, I’m Belinda Carlisle. And then they get very confused. Okay, so you go to karaoke. And you have to sing one of your own songs, either a solo song or go go song, which do you choose?

Belinda Carlisle 

Oh, Circle of the Sound. I’ve done that before. I did it in India, actually, when no one knew. When I was at a karaoke bar in India and it came on so I thought I’d go up there and sing it. And they had no idea so it was fine.

Jaime Primak Sullivan 

That is amazing. I would choose you didn’t ask but I’m going to tell you. I would probably choose your version of band of gold. I love it. I love it very much.

Belinda Carlisle 

Oh, that’s so great, I love that, that’s feel obscured.

Jaime Primak Sullivan 

I love it. And I want to tell you that one of the first short stories I ever wrote as a writer was inspired by vacation, which but it was, great lyrics. So shout out to the woman who wrote that song. But it actually was not the lyric so much as the video. It’s a great video. But it for me it was it tapped into like, a feeling as a writer. Where you go like, two weeks without you. I can’t, you know, I can’t forget, like, it’s that feeling of like, save me. Help me escape. Because that’s what vacation the song is about. It’s about escaping. heartache, right? I’m assuming this for me. It is for me. And you know I the song for me I think the reason you said Band of Gold. Your version of Band of Gold is obscure. And I think why it’s so resonates so well with me and why it’s so important to me and why I put it on repeat when I’m playing hooky from work and laying out by my pool is because it’s feels to me very you. Now, by the way, you could tell me Oh, Jaime, I was not well, when I recorded that, I did it under duress, I didn’t want to.

Belinda Carlisle 

No, I wanted to, it evokes, I mean, it was one of the songs that I grew up with. And I, you know, I would lay in front of my speaker every summer from eight in the morning to like five o’clock at night when my father came home from work, listening to pop music. And that was one of the songs that I always loved. And I always wanted to do it. And in fact, I had Freda Payne, who did the original of sings backgrounds on that, and she was so gorgeous, and so sweet. And I’m so honored that she did. But it’s so sweet. So nice that you said that. It is obscure.

Jaime Primak Sullivan 

It is, but it’s so wonderful. So if you’re listening to this podcast, do yourself a favor when it’s over go and search Belinda’s song cover of Band of Gold, it is just one of those songs that you hear and you go, I’m so glad I know this exists now because it is, look music is, it’s transformative. And it’s all the very sort of sophisticated things that people say, but sometimes, it’s just fucking good. It’s just fun. It doesn’t have to be transformative. And it doesn’t have to be like super impactful. And there doesn’t have to be a whole story behind it. It’s great if there is. And sometimes an artist just goes, No, I love the song. And I wanted to cover it and I got to do it. And it’s great. I’m so grateful. And I can’t tell you what it’s meant to me and there will always be a place for you at my table, there will always be a place for you in my theatres, and with my stories. And if there’s ever anything that you need from me or want from me ever a coffee, or a connection or a something, I’m here and know that I’m here and I mean that and send my love to your husband and to your beautiful son and know that you know, I will continue to toast to you every month when I sing your song.

Belinda Carlisle 

That’s so touching. Thank you so much.

Jaime Primak Sullivan  

This was wonderful. And I’m so grateful. And thank you.

Belinda Carlisle 

Thank you, it was so great to talk to you.

Jaime Primak Sullivan 

Okay, so that was surreal. And very important for where I am in my next chapter journey because it validated so many of not only the fears, said to me, okay, the fears you’re having, or the hamster wheel you’re running. Those are not figments of your imagination. These are all very real things that you’re feeling but also there is a path to happily ever after. You just have to change the direction you’re running. And isn’t that so fucking powerful?

Jaxson 

Yes. That there is a light at the end of the tunnel. You just have to take the right turn.

Jaime Primak Sullivan 

Right. And I think the anxiety comes when you’re running or moving in the wrong direction. It’s your internal monologue, your internal GPS going, rerouting, turn […]. And I’m so grateful that I have somebody else to say, no, you’re right. Turn around. Let your body’s natural GPS reroute you. Because I think I need a little rerouting. I think we all do.

Jaxson 

I think so. Every once in a while, at least.

Jaime Primak Sullivan 

Except for Jaxson, who’s never ever felt imposter syndrome. And it’s a product of achieving nothing. I will never forget that you said that. It was profoundly said.

Jaxson 

I mean, I know. I’m glad it’s in the episode.

Jaime Primak Sullivan 

It’s great. It’s gonna go down in Let’s Tawk history is one of the most profoundly sad things I’ve ever heard.

Jaxson 

We’ll come back next season, and I’ll have it

Jaime Primak Sullivan 

So thank you, everybody for listening to this week’s episode of Let’s Tawk. If you liked it, please subscribe. Please rate it the five stars let us know. And share this episode with friends, loved Ones, Go-Go fans, Belinda Carlisle fans and anybody who just believes Heaven is a place on earth. I love you guys so much. Have a great, great day.

Jaime Primak Sullivan 

Let’s Tawk is a Lemonada Media Original. Our producer is Xorje Olivares. Executive Producers are Stephanie Wittels Wachs, Jessica Cordova Kramer and Jamie Primak Sullivan. Mix and scoring is by Veronica Rodriguez. Music is by Dan Molad. Please help others find the show by rating and reviewing wherever you listen. Catch my series Cawfee Tawk on the Jaime Primak Sullivan Facebook page. I’m also on Twitter at @JaimePrimak, and on Instagram at @JaimePSullivan. And follow at @LemonadaMedia across all social platforms. If you want more Let’s Tawk, visit Lemonada Premium only on Apple podcasts.