Showing Up Every Day of the Year (with Shannon Watts)
The five people killed in Colorado Springs this month join 18,000 other Americans who died of gun homicides this year. Stephanie Wittels Wachs sits in for Andy to process the news with Shannon Watts, the founder of Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense in America. Shannon shares her experience hearing about the shooting as the mother of a nonbinary young adult living in Colorado, and takes stock of what her organization has accomplished since forming in the wake of Sandy Hook. Amid the heartache, this conversation is full of optimism and a sense of joy that grassroots activism is squashing the NRA’s influence and turning the tide on gun safety in America.
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Follow Shannon Watts on Twitter @shannonrwatts.
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Check out these resources from today’s episode:
- Learn about Moms Demand Action: https://momsdemandaction.org/
- Learn about Demand a Seat, a program that trains volunteers and gun violence survivors to run for office and work on campaigns to elect gun sense candidates: https://www.everytown.org/demand-a-seat/
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Andy Slavitt, Stephanie Wittels Wachs, Shannon Watts
Stephanie Wittels Wachs 00:18
You’re listening to IN THE BUBBLE. I’m Stephanie Wittels Wachs, in for Andy Slavitt today, I hope you had a safe Thanksgiving holiday. Right now it is the Wednesday before Thanksgiving, we recorded an interview with Shannon Watts yesterday. She’s the founder of Moms Demand Action, and has been working tirelessly for 10 years to end gun violence. She joined me following the terrible mass shooting at an LGBTQ plus venue in Colorado Springs. 5 people were killed and 18 were injured in that shooting. Shannon and I talked about how each one of us can make a difference and help and the senseless tragedies. Then I woke up this morning ready to collect my thoughts for this introduction. Only to turn on the news and find out there has been yet another mass shooting, this time at a Walmart in Virginia. What we know at this time is that an employee entered the break room and shot dead six of his coworkers. This is just weeks after 3 football players from the University of Virginia were killed on a bus after returning from a field trip to see a play. I know that while I take time to be grateful and give thanks for my family in these coming days. My thoughts will inevitably return to these terrible events one after another, like Buffalo and Uvalde just months ago, and think of all the families who no doubt had a terribly difficult Thanksgiving week without their loved ones. But here at Lemonada Media, our mission is to make life suck less. So we are going to talk about guns and gun safety today with someone who has built her life and activism around this issue. Shannon Watts is the founder of Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense in America. formed the day after the Sandy Hook tragedy. Her organization now has a chapter in every single state and as part of every town for gun safety. Let’s welcome Shannon.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs 02:25
Shannon, thank you for joining me today on this Tuesday before a robust holiday weekend. We’re taping this on Tuesday before the holiday it’s just days after the shooting in Colorado. And I imagine it must be heart wrenching to go through the specific mourning process again and again. And again. I’d love for you to tell us what it feels like in those moments after you hear about another one of these stories in the news?
Shannon Watts 03:06
Well, it feels like because I’m on West Coast time that I so often wake up to these horrific tragedies that have happened overnight. But in this case, it was particularly upsetting. I was in bed I opened my phone; I realized I had a text that was pretty early in the morning, my time to have a text and I thought it was from my kid in Colorado, a trans kid and non-binary kid who is 26 and in a band and their message said, I’ve had the gig of a lifetime last night I played so well people in the audience were crying. And I just you know, my heart was full and I was so excited for them. And then I go to Twitter, which is always the second thing I do. And you know, I see that there’s been this horrific mass shooting at an LGBTQ club in Colorado where my kid lives. And that just made it all the more upsetting, you know, to me to think, you know, this is something that could impact my kid now, all gun violence can, that’s why we all have to get off the sidelines, but they’re just those moments in this work where I see a kid who looks like one of my kids or I just identify with the shooting tragedy so closely that it’s hard to shake.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs 04:29
I feel the same way. I mean, having elementary school children, you know, seeing Uvalde was particularly triggering to see and to witness and to think that could be my kid right. That’s the cycle that keeps happening over and over again. Colorado has experienced several mass shootings before this, including at Columbine High School in 1999. This shooting has raised questions about why the state’s red flag laws were not used in 2021 to seize The alleged shooters weapons after he made bomb threats against his mother. Can you remind us what red flag laws are and how they work?
Shannon Watts 05:08
Yes. So we started working on red flag laws right after the UCSB shooting in California. And if you remember that shooting, it was a young man whose parents had called the police and said our kid is dangerous and armed. The police said, there’s nothing we can do, we’re not allowed to take his guns. And we know what happened, which was this person went on to shoot and kill people on a campus particularly targeted women in a sorority, someone who refer to themselves as an insult someone who was very, very dangerous, clearly and should have been disarmed. And the data shows us that these laws are effective, right when you let family or police petition a judge to get a temporary restraining order that simply allows law enforcement to determine the risk level. And whether this person should have any access to guns. Because so often, almost all the time in shooting tragedies, mass shootings in particular, there are red flags. So we passed a Red Flag Law in Colorado in 2019, about 20 states now, thanks to our volunteers, work, have these laws. And, look, these are a tool in the toolbox. If you don’t take the tool out and use it. It’s just a tool that’s sitting in there completely useless. And Colorado has some of the lowest use rates of its Red Flag Law of any states that have passed them. And that is, in part because there are these gun extremists, sheriffs, sheriffs are in an elected position in most places. The NRA has done a really good job over the last few decades of electing sheriffs who are beholden to them by spending campaign dollars. And these sheriffs have in conservative areas Colorado really refused to enforce these laws. In fact, Colorado Springs is in El Paso County, which is a so called Second Amendment sanctuary, which means they have voted to not follow state or federal gun laws. So it isn’t surprising that they are not enforcing these laws. But you know, it’s egregious, it is malpractice, to allow someone who was clearly dangerous, who was armed, and who participated in these horrific threats to allow that person to have easy and unfettered access to guns. I mean, this is the logical outcome of that situation, and it could have been prevented.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs 07:48
Do you see that connection in other states where elected representatives and officials are not taking that tool out of the toolbox? And you see a more significant number of shootings? Is that unique to Colorado?
Shannon Watts 08:03
You know, when you look at the data, Colorado has among the lowest use rate, I would say it was a more purple state than the other states that have passed these laws. Indiana’s probably another exception to that rule. Indiana was one of the first laws although they don’t have a very modern Red Flag Law. When these laws started being passed these red flag laws, the NRA decided they would oppose them because they keep getting pulled to the right by extremists who believe any law whatsoever is an infringement on the Second Amendment. So Indiana actually passed its Red Flag Law. It was among the first states to do so. But we’ve seen fewer and fewer red states pass these laws as the NRA has opposed them. But we’re seeing more and more blue and purple states pass them. When Colorado passed its law originally, I think you could say it was more solidly purple. Given the recent election, it’s a pretty blue state now. And we’re very hopeful that states that have passed these laws will take advantage of federal funding that just became available through the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act. That’s the first federal gun legislation to pass in over 25 years in this country. And part of that legislation, allots money to states that have passed red flag laws to implement them, and to incentivize them, this goes back to that idea of a tool in the toolbox. You have to use it. And so that is the hope of this funding, that the states that have these laws, we’ll use that funding to make sure people know they can use them, to make sure police know how to use them, to make sure that there’s pressure to use them, and also to even encourage more states to pass them.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs 09:43
I’d love to talk about the Bipartisan, Safer Communities Act. It was signed into law this summer. I was there you were there. I saw you there. It was a very exciting day. Can you remind us of what else is in the law and how it will make us safer?
Shannon Watts 10:00
Yes, it is, again a first step on a much longer journey, right? It is not everything we need, but it is an important step forward. And it does several things. First of all, it unlocks money for community violence intervention programs. These programs are so incredibly important in interrupting gun violence, particularly in city centers, retaliatory gun violence. Basically, it gives people the funding they need to create relationships in their communities to stop gun violence before it even starts. The other thing it did was to incentivize red flag laws. And another part of the bill that’s really important is that it narrows the loophole that allows domestic abusers to have easy access to guns right before it was simply your spouse or your living partner who were prohibited purchasers when they were convicted of domestic abuse. Now, that includes dating partners, and we know about half of all women in this country are shot by dating partners, because they’re waiting longer to get married. So that legislation was a very, very important first step. But there’s certainly much more we can do.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs 11:12
Let’s take a quick break and come back to talk about the midterms and why Shannon thinks the NRA is losing steam. It’s very clear that there’s more we can do. The tragic event this past weekend was the sixth mass shooting in November. And while we are excited about a first step, many people in this country are rightfully feeling that the next mass shooting could happen anywhere, anytime. So what do you say to the people who are listening and they are feeling that sense of frustration and fear?
Shannon Watts 12:05
First of all, I understand that I mean, we have a 25 times higher gun homicide rate than any pure nation. And that is because we have easy access to guns, there’s about 400 million guns in this country and too few gun laws. The extremist wants to believe more guns and fewer laws make us safer. If that were the case, we’d be the safest country in the world. But I would also say that we don’t have to accept gun violence, we don’t have to accept mass shooting as normal. And as acceptable. Freedom is actually being able to go to the grocery store and to school and out with friends and to sporting events, you know, to live our lives fully without fear. But that kind of change will demand that everyone use their voice and their vote on this issue that they get off the sidelines that they get involved. I get asked all the time, like, aren’t you hopeless because you work on such a tough issue. And I don’t feel hopeless because I see us winning all the time. I mean, we have past hundreds and hundreds of good gun laws. We have stopped the NRA agenda 90% of the time, every year in state houses for the last seven years. We have now sent secure storage notifications home with 8 million school kids, to their families to tell them to keep their guns locked, unloaded and separate from ammunition. All of these things are lifesaving. But it is like trips on a rock. Right? It didn’t happen overnight. It won’t happen overnight. We still have a lot more work to do. But that work is happening. We are winning.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs 13:37
Do you feel like the NRA is becoming less powerful?
Shannon Watts 13:40
Oh, they’re absolutely the least powerful they’ve ever been. They are hemorrhaging political power and money. A report just came out recently showing that they have less money than they’ve ever had in their history. They certainly had no sway over the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act it passed despite their protestations the thing I will say about that about the NRA being incredibly weak, which is our goal, right? That’s what we set out to do. And we did it. What we did not predict was that this right wing, these insurrectionists would take hold of the NRA agenda and really use guns as an organizing principle, right? It is what gets extremists in the door. It’s what excites the base and raises money. It’s frankly what even gets them interested in other extremist issues. Everything from you know, anti CRT to anti-trans to anti-abortion. It is really guns that has become the organizing principle for extremists in this country. And so that is a sticky wicket that we also have to undo. But a lot of that can be undone through politics, you know the political cycle and getting involved in every single election, showing up at all levels of government from school boards to City Council’s to state houses. Making sure that we keep electing Dunstan’s champions, like we need to do in Georgia on December 6. But also, I would say, it’s really interesting that we are seeing our own volunteers and survivors want to move from not just shaping policy, but to actually making it. And just this election cycle. We’ve already elected over 130 of our own volunteers to office.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs 15:22
It’s incredible. I was going to ask you about that. So thank you for bringing that up. I’d love to dive into the election results, because I think that is a place where we can yield some power here. So let’s talk about the recent midterm elections. With Dems controlling the Senate, what gun safety legislation, are you pushing senators to pass?
Shannon Watts 15:44
Well, look, I’ll never say never, it will certainly be more difficult to pass significant legislation in Congress over the next two years, given that Republicans control the House. That said, I don’t think I would have told you that we would have passed the bipartisan, Safer Communities Act this year. 10 years ago, a quarter of all Democrats in Congress had an A rating from the NRA today, none do. And in fact, 15 Republicans signed on to the bipartisan, Safer Communities Act. So look, it is always possible to make progress. But we’re going to be very much focused on state and local governments, they can really lead the way in passing innovative laws and defeating dangerous bills. There’s a lot to be done to implement the bipartisan, Safer Communities Act. So we’ll be certainly focused on not at a federal level. But I’m really excited about the fact that we flipped state legislatures or chambers in places like Minnesota, and Michigan and Pennsylvania. These are places where we have tried to pass stronger gun laws for a decade. And we know we will be able to do that now in Minnesota, and Michigan. And it’s really was ultimately a great election cycle for our issue. Not everywhere. We didn’t win everywhere. But we won in a lot of places we didn’t expect to win.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs 16:59
What do you attribute to that, that turning of the tide that you seem to be feeling right now? What is it as you said, it’s slow progress is incremental, you told me that this summer, when we chatted, why are we getting so many candidates elected? Why are these houses starting to shift a bit in our favor?
Shannon Watts 17:15
Well, we know that gun safety was a very important issue to voters this year. We keep seeing more and more exit data come out that shows that it was in the top three. In some places. It was even number one, that voters were tired of the mass shootings and the daily gun violence in their communities. And they wanted to put a stop to the extremism they’re seeing among so many lawmakers. I think Lauren Bovard is a good example. Right? She’s an out and proud gun extremist who really was rebuked by the voters in her district, and she’s very vulnerable the next election cycle. But also we’ve built this grassroots army that can go toe to toe with the gun lobby, we have 10 million supporters now. We are twice as large as the NRA. I can’t tell you how many lawmakers took me aside to tell me that our volunteers are literally powering their campaigns, through getting out the vote efforts through being campaign managers by showing up everywhere and supporting them and having conversations. That was what we set out to do. I went to 15 states in the two months before the election, Georgia and Oregon twice. People from you know, Tina Kotek, to Gretchen Whitmer. And all the way down the ballot wanted me there with them, and are volunteers to campaign on the issue of gun safety. I can tell you that was not the case. 10 years ago, when Democrats had absolutely no interest in having me show up with them in my red shirt, completely different situation, a seismic shift in American politics.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs 18:53
I was going to ask you; what do you think it’s going to take to break the gun lobbies influence? And it seems like that’s what you’re speaking to, that people getting active and showing up and voting and using their power that we do have to make change is making change. It’s helping.
Shannon Watts 19:11
Back to the conversation about incremental ism. You know, I think it’s seen as a dirty word. And I totally get it I was a young person wants to like the fact that there can’t be overnight. Systemic wide change is frustrating. And it’s intolerable. But it’s also the way the system is set up. You know, we could have given up in the months after the Sandy Hook school shooting tragedy when Congress failed to act, there was a bipartisan piece of legislation that would have required a background check on every gun sale. I thought that was a no brainer that would pass and I would go back to my normal life. And what I realized is that Congress is where this work ends. It’s not where it begins, that we would have to dismantle the system, starting at the lowest levels of government and that That was exactly right. That is what we set out to do. It’s what we’re doing. And it doesn’t happen overnight. It’s about showing up at every gun bill hearing, and sitting in house and senate galleries, just to show lawmakers, you’re watching them, it’s bringing cookies, you know, and sitting down to talk to your lawmakers and telling them, this is the most important issue to you. It’s showing up every day of the year and never giving up, you know, you can’t beat someone who never gives up. And that’s really been our motto to keep going. And I do believe we are on the precipice of wholesale change on this issue where Republicans and Democrats alike feel that they need to be on the right side of the issue. And honestly, I don’t care if it’s because they’ve had a change of heart and mind or if it’s just politically pragmatic. They don’t want to lose their job, it doesn’t matter. This is about showing lawmakers when they do the right thing, you’ll have their back. And when they do the wrong thing, you’ll have their job.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs 20:59
Speaking of which, Moms Demand Action reacted to Trump announcing his next presidential campaign by labeling him. The NRA is number one ally. What are your reactions to Trump’s announcement?
Shannon Watts 21:15
Look, we’re excited to see him fail again. And we will absolutely be out there working on behalf of whatever gun says candidate is running for president. That’s certainly not Donald Trump. But I really do think that election also was the spark that helped us create demand seat. Demand a seat is a program that really has just formalized something that’s been happening organically since we started, which is that our volunteers realize that they have the skills to not just shape policy, but to actually make it once they are part of Moms Demand Action. As I said, 130 of our volunteers ran and one disciple 12 In Illinois, seven of eight volunteers who ran in Rhode Island one, six volunteers, one in Minnesota, they help flip the state Senate by getting elected. And it is really exciting to watch this happen, given it’s just been, you know, a year since we launched demand a seat formally. And I do think some of that is realizing that if Donald Trump can be president, they are more than qualified to be on the school board.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs 22:25
And what does that work look like? What does that mean for people who are listening and they want to get involved?
Shannon Watts 22:31
Well, look, it is incredibly important to get out the vote. And we do that every single election cycle, right, that’s knocking doors and making calls and sending emails and texts. It’s old fashioned democracy in action. But it’s more than that, too. It really is year round. It isn’t just getting involved right before an election. We need people to help educate people about secure gun storage, to help stop bad bills that are trying to be passed by gun extremists where they live to help support and even testify in favor of good gun safety legislation. There’s always something to be done, and create that momentum and create that foundation for gun safety so that when you do have the right lawmakers in place where you live, you can quickly move into action. I mean, I’m already seeing Michigan lawmakers, they’re either texting me, or they’re tweeting. This is the year that we finally pass good gun laws in states like Massachusetts, and in Maryland and in Minnesota. And you know, who knows what we can do in Pennsylvania, we’ll see. But it is only because we’ve created this foundation and this army of volunteers who lawmakers know have their back when they pass this legislation to make sure that they can keep their jobs. And that’s what we’ll do.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs 23:52
Let’s take one more quick break and come back to talk about how you can get involved even if you don’t think you have the time. We just recently heard that Nancy Pelosi is announcing that she’s stepping down as Majority Leader. You tweeted that she has supported your organization since it started. So what has her record been on gun violence issues?
Shannon Watts 24:35
You know, I think back to the speaker when she was just a member of Congress when I started Moms Demand Action, and she stood next to me at a press conference. Here I am this random woman from Indiana that she had never heard of. And we had a ton of people in the audience and we had all these volunteers behind us and she just whispered in my ear. You should be so proud. And I’ve always felt this kinship with her or because maybe because I didn’t get involved until I was in my 40s. I didn’t become politically active. And I’m also a mom of five. But every step of the way, she has been a champion of Moms Demand Action. And our volunteers and the work that we were trying to do and was always hopeful that we would get it done and was always committed, and really did it right. I mean, she is a big part of the reason the bipartisan, Safer Communities Act passed this summer. So incredibly grateful to know her to still know her to feel like I was part of history, working alongside her or following in her footsteps, certainly. And I believe she created a legacy that made it okay for Democrats to be on the right side of this issue. You know, as she stays in the house, I’m sure she will still work on this issue and champion this issue. But it will be something I look back on in my life, I think in awe that I got to work alongside Speaker Pelosi.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs 26:02
You’re nearing your 10th anniversary of Moms Demand Action, and you’ve made significant progress. We’ve heard about so much of that here today. Where does the organization go from here?
Shannon Watts 26:15
So look, I think that we are at just this incredible trajectory that we have amassed so much political power, I felt it out on the road, when I was campaigning for grandson’s candidates, we are growing in numbers, and now that we can meet in person and not just online again, I think that means everything to the community and the joy of being a volunteer and re-energizes the people who have been doing this work. Sadly, we have a whole wave of new volunteers because of the horrific shooting tragedies that summer in Buffalo, Uvalde, and Highland Park. And I really do think that we’re sort of just beginning even though we’re 10 years old, you know, we’ve passed the first federal gun safety legislation, but more needs to be done. We have a presidential cycle coming up, we have another demand a seat cohort that we’re going to kick off. And I really think that whether people want to work on this issue legislatively or culturally or electorally, there’s something that you can find, right, find a piece of this work that you’re passionate about and get involved. Because the more people who get off the sidelines and get involved, the sooner that we will get this done and the more lives we will save along the way.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs 27:30
The work that you’ve done has been absolutely all consuming, I imagine, starting a movement doesn’t seem particularly easy. Take some time, take some energy, you are a mother of five, as you just said, how have you found that time people who are listening who are thinking, I want to get involved? I have no time, right? How do you find that balance in your own life between the demands of this national organizing campaign and the demands of your family life? How would you advise other working busy moms like me who want to get involved and aren’t quite sure how to carve out the extra hours in the day?
Shannon Watts 28:09
Well, first of all, I would say that you don’t have to be a full time volunteer like me, right. I’ve been doing this full time for a decade and made that commitment to be sort of the tip of the spear, and has been an honor to do so. That said, if we’re looking at this idea of drips on a rock, it really is about each email, each call each meeting each hour, you may have to spare to be an activist that adds up you don’t have to do it all yourself. Alice Walker said activism is the rent I pay to live on the planet. And I think that’s right. Even if we only have an hour a week or a month, it does add up. One of our volunteers coined the phrase nap activism. It’s this idea of being an advocate when your kid is taking their nap in the afternoon, and maybe calling your member of Congress or sending a tweet with a hashtag that is politically active or making plans to be part of your next Moms Demand Action meeting. Whatever it looks like to you to be an activist and however much time you have, it does matter. And so that’s what I would say. And look, I have perspective. Now. When I started this organization, my youngest was 12. He is now a 22 year old senior in college. And none of my kids have ever said you know, Mom, I can’t believe you didn’t go to that one soccer game or I can’t believe you weren’t able to see you know, my school play five times in a row. They say I’m so proud of you that you have a purpose and that you have something you’re passionate about. And you have taught us that is truly what they say. So I would put them on Google decide, know that your kids will see your example. And that will impact them positively, and find something you’re passionate about and get involved. The community I have found through activism is just as important as winning, which is to say, I have found my people, I have met people who I thought were best friends their whole lives. And they just met a few years ago through Moms Demand Action, I have seen volunteers pass away from cancer and their beds in hospice were completely filled with Moms Demand Action volunteers they met through this work. There is not just a sense of winning and a sense of pride. There’s a sense of purpose and a sense of community that you can only find when you get off the sidelines.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs 30:44
Yeah, we talked about this a lot this summer. But we you talked about finding joy in this work, and how you intentionally carve that out that there has to be joy in advocacy and activism. And it seems like you have been able to find that balance in the grind. And I’m sure all the frustrating moments, there’s still this sense of we’re changing the world here. That’s amazing.
Shannon Watts 31:10
Yes, you have to celebrate every win. You have to celebrate people who do get off the sidelines, you have to have hope. And I think that’s what joy is. The opposite would be cynicism, which I have seen be an excuse for inaction over and over again. We have an annual event called Gun Sense University. And we bring together 1000s of our volunteer leaders. And we always end with a dance party. And I know that sounds strange, right? Volunteers and survivors dancing and just sort of letting loose. But why would you get involved in anything that was devoid of joy. There can’t just be anger and outrage, there has to be hope and joy so that people don’t just get off the sidelines, but they stay involved. And I do think that’s something we particularly in the progressive space, forget that fun and joy, and hope and community are the keystones of activism. That is why people come but also why they stay.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs 32:13
If you look into the future, what do you want to say is your biggest win in 20 years, you know, if you had some sort of crystal ball, and you looked ahead and thought, here’s what I want to accomplish and what I want to look back on, and 20 years, what would you say?
Shannon Watts 32:28
First, I would say it’s wholesale federal gun safety laws, starting with the foundation of background checks on every gun sale, you know, Mothers Against Drunk Driving, I think it took them 10 years to pass laws that would save lives, we are close to that mark. And we have made significant progress. But we really need all lawmakers, regardless of political party to be on the right side of this issue in order to do that, to see states continue their trajectory toward gun sense to see more and more of our volunteers having a seat at the table by being elected to office themselves. But most importantly, just to save lives, to not be afraid to not live in fear to have the freedom that we deserve. And that is promised to us in our Constitution. And we do not have that right now. Because we have allowed a special interest to write our laws so that they profit gun manufacturers, we have to undo that in order to live up to the promise of our democracy. And that is absolutely achievable in the next decade.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs 33:35
Well, I look forward to chatting with you on your 20 year anniversary and having this conversation and looking back at all the amazing work you’ve done. I am so deeply grateful for you; Shannon and I know that I’m echoing the choir behind me that is so grateful for all that you have done. You created a movement out of nothing out of outrage and fear and it’s amazing to witness and I’m just glad that you’re in our orbit.
Shannon Watts 34:03
Well thank you and thank you for always shining a light on this issue.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs 34:20
And that’s the show for today. I appreciate you all tuning in. Andy is back on Wednesday. So thanks for letting me sit in. I will talk to you soon.
Thanks for listening to IN THE BUBBLE. We’re a production of Lemonada Media. Kathryn Barnes, Jackie Harris and Kyle Shiely produced our show, and they’re great. Our mix is by Noah Smith and James Barber, and they’re great, too. Steve Nelson is the vice president of the weekly content, and he’s okay, too. And of course, the ultimate bosses, Jessica Cordova Kramer and Stephanie Wittels Wachs, they executive produced the show, we love them dearly. Our theme was composed by Dan Molad and Oliver Hill, with additional music by Ivan Kuraev. You can find out more about our show on social media at @LemonadaMedia where you’ll also get the transcript of the show. And you can find me at @ASlavitt on Twitter. If you like what you heard today, why don’t you tell your friends to listen as well, and get them to write a review. Thanks so much, talk to you next time.