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When you think of a hunter, what image comes to mind? Probably not a Patagonia-clad gun safety proponent like Tim Stevens. In this bonus episode, Tim leads the way on an elk hunt and shares what it means to take a nuanced stance on gun rights. Plus, we face the very real (and kind of icky) possibility of hauling fresh meat out of the Montana wilderness.

Resources:

To learn more about the people and organizations featured in this episode and access critical information about suicide and violence prevention visit: https://lastdayresources.simvoly.com/.

Stephanie Wittels Wachs is the host. Jackie Danziger is our supervising producer. Our producers are Kegan Zema and Giulia Hjort. Hannah Boomershine and Erianna Jiles are our associate producers. Andi Kristinsdottir is our audio engineer. Music is by Hannis Brown. Our story consultant is Kaya Henderson. Executive producers are Jessica Cordova Kramer and Stephanie Wittels Wachs. This season of Last Day is created in partnership with the Kendeda Fund, the Annie E. Casey Foundation, the Pritzker Pucker Family Foundation, Levi Strauss & Co, and Everytown for Gun Safety Support Fund.

America’s psychiatric emergency systems are struggling to assist those in dire need of help. The Kennedy-Satcher Center for Mental Health Equity, a subsidiary of the Satcher Health Leadership at Morehouse School of Medicine, is partnering with Beacon Health Options to establish critical guidelines for dismantling inequity through its new research and policy initiative. You can join the movement too by attending their upcoming virtual summit. Go to kennedysatcher.org to register today.

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To follow along with a transcript, go to www.lemonadamedia.com/show/lastday shortly after the air date.

Transcript

SPEAKERS

Tim Stevens, Kegan, Stephanie Wittels Wachs

Stephanie Wittels Wachs  00:00

We’re revving the engine, it’s 4:58am. And what the fuck are we doing in the car? It’s early December in Montana. It’s pitch black outside. And as you might imagine, the weather is in the single digits. I truly have so many […] on. I feel like a giant bubble. I feel like I’m wrapped in bubble, long underwear, really formal socks, pants. Before we even left for Montana. I knew I wanted to go hunting while I was out there. I mean, you can’t talk about guns without talking about hunting. So I wanted to give it a shot to see what all the fuss was about. Kegan, one of our other producers was going to come along and help record the whole thing. But as we pulled out of the driveway that morning, both of us are having second thoughts. Are you looking forward to it? Or are you not looking forward to it?

Kegan 

I’d say I’m looking forward to being outside. Not looking forward to being cold, and certainly don’t want to kill an animal.

Stephanie Wittels Wachs 

Check, check check. Now, as to people who had never been hunting, or even shot a gun until a few days prior, we knew we needed some help to make this dream a reality. Enter Tim Stevens, the seasoned hunter who volunteered to take us out for our very first elk hunting adventure.

Tim Stevens 

My theory and I don’t know if this is corrected or not. But we are all descendants of successful hunters. Because if you’re not a successful hunter, you died.

Stephanie Wittels Wachs 

Our hunting trip with Tim was an eye opening experience and, frankly, a highlight of the trip for both of us. But with so much important stuff to talk about this season, especially as more and more and more new tragedies unfolded. We never found the right place for our great wilderness awakening. So today, we are finally going to share our experience being out on the land and a bit of our conversation with Tim on how hunting and firearms fit into everything we explored this season. And hey, we might even have some fresh meat at the end of it.

Tim Stevens  02:24

So we’re gonna head south into this thing. It’s chilly.

Stephanie Wittels Wachs

I’m really cold. But I mean, it’s good. I like this one. It’s absolutely gorgeous. But my face is frozen. I think my snot is frozen.

Stephanie Wittels Wachs

I’m Stephanie Wittels Wachs, and this is LAST DAY. So when we were setting up this hunting excursion, Tim sent us this lengthy, very detailed email, prepping us for what the day might have in store. And while he did mention that our chances of actually harvesting an elk were super low, we were pretty terrified about what would happen on the off chance that we succeeded. Let me just read you the most terrifying part of his email, quote, I will definitely need help hauling elk quarters up and out of the canyon, so any apprehension about seeing/handling a dead animal will need to be left at the bottom of the canyon because I’ll need help. The quarters would be in bags, so I suppose less achy, period, unquote. Well, still sounded pretty icky to me. But even knowing that this is what we might be up against, we wanted to understand more deeply this activity that seems so vital to these Montana communities. So we piled in Tim’s pickup truck and headed out towards Porcupine, Butte, which is part of the crazy mountains back country drive. On the right over Tim gave us some insight into what’s become one of his favorite pastimes.

Tim Stevens  04:19

What you know, it’s interesting, like, you know, and I didn’t grow up. I think I’ve only been hunting in the past like 15 years. Maybe I came into the way, I was always I guess ambivalent, you know, in that in the middle like, I didn’t really think about it. And when I did, I didn’t, it didn’t really affect me either way, but I got interested in it simply from a providing healthy protein for my family kind of thing.

Stephanie Wittels Wachs 

Despite his camo outfit, Tim doesn’t exactly fit the bill of your typical hunter. First, he’s a self-proclaimed progressive who works with one of our nonprofit partners. He wears a lot of Patagonia and goes to Dave Matthews concerts with his family. But he’s also an avid hunter who raised his kids on the meat he hunted, and he’s got a freezer full of it.

Tim Stevens 

So usually with elk, I do like burger or steak. There’s mule deer and white tailed deer. And where we’re going today, I got a mule deer about a month ago. And we got that deer made into jalapeno cheddar bratwurst.

Stephanie Wittels Wachs 

Back when Tim was in college, he studied Forestry and Natural Resources. So he’s always approached hunting with a deep understanding of the science and biology surrounding wildlife management.

Tim Stevens

Hunting is, I believe, the ecologically lowest impact on the environment that you can have to acquire your protein. Because if you’re a meat eater, and you’re going out to the store and buying like pork, for example, like the environmental costs for raising that pig, it’s on a farm, and then it goes to, you know, whatever, feedlot and then it gets sent to the processor, and then it gets chopped up and it gets shrink wrapped. Like the environmental costs of that are huge. And so yeah, I could go buy, you know, pork in a store. Nice little cutlets as opposed to going. But then if you look at like here, for example, so these animals, they’re born here on this land, and they eat the grass, they drink the water, and they’re out in the landscape, and I go out and I spend money on gas and money on bullets. And I go on, I take that animal off the landscape, and the harvest of the animal has little perceptible effect on the overall population. So like ecologically, I’m not really harming that population, I’ve taken an animal, right? So that’s one thing. But like in terms of ecological impacts, you can’t even compare it.

Stephanie Wittels Wachs

And speaking of ecologically sound ideas, Montana’s Fish and Game agency, they actually identified a five week shoulder season, in addition to the regular hunting season, to help tackle the state’s elk overpopulation problem, which is why we were able to go hunting this late into the year/

Tim Stevens 

There is what you would call in a biological sense, a harvestable surplus, like a population that you can hunt, that will not have an impact as in downward trajectory, forcing wildlife populations into a bad situation.

Stephanie Wittels Wachs 

Basically, if there are too many of a certain animal, in this case, elk, it can throw the entire ecosystem off balance, and the elk don’t really have a ton of natural predators out there. So that’s where people like Tim come in.

Tim Stevens

It’s a pretty good sort of, like science based system for wildlife management, like whether or not you agree with hunting from an ethical perspective or not, like from a science perspective, it’s pretty solid. It’s pretty solid.

Stephanie Wittels Wachs  08:12

Okay, I’m really glad you explained that to me. So I can go back to my seven year old, who’s so pissed that I’m going hunting. And who is like very pro science, and tell her the scientific reason for this. It makes a ton of sense. As much as I knew Iris would be relatively comforted by knowing this. I was also very relieved to learn all of this, considering I was facing the very real possibility of having to help Tim quarter and carry hundreds of pounds of dead elk up a mountain back to our truck later that day.

Tim Stevens

There are people who like, disagree with killing an individual, like this poor animal, you’ve just shot it to death, and I totally get that. And if you can’t, you know, like, I’m not gonna say get over it, because I’m not over it. I’m impacted by it every time I you know, take an animal. But like, if that’s a blocker for you, then you’re not going to want to hunt or support those who do, you know? I’m most concerned about the perpetuation of the species and having healthy, abundant, well distributed populations of wildlife. And I am willing to harvest an individual animal with appropriate mixed feelings about that. I mean, you’re not, I’m never pumping my fist in joy, when I take an animal. It’s like, No, I’m sad. I give thanks. But then I take that animal home and process it and I feed my family with it. And so there’s that at least but then also from like a cost standpoint. And I’ll probably pay, you know, a couple 100 bucks for, and I’m guessing like 80 or so pounds of like, you know, ground meat and steaks. Whereas you’re going into store now and if you want to get just a thing of ground beef, it’s like 6 bucks a pound. But I’m not even worried necessarily about the cost. I’m more worried about the ecological cost, you know?

Stephanie Wittels Wachs  10:29

Is every hunter as knowledgeable about all of this as you are?

Tim Stevens 

I don’t know. You know, I feel like I’ve got a little bit of an interesting mix, probably more than most just because of my background.

Stephanie Wittels Wachs 

Well, it seems, I always imagine that hunters are like not you.

Tim Stevens

Yeah, no, I know, sort of like..

Stephanie Wittels Wachs 

I know, we’re laughing. But I’m really not kidding here. When I think hunter, I’m picturing burly guys, posing rifle in hand in front of their bloodied kill. And they usually have political beliefs that are a lot different than mine, especially when it comes to our rights to own firearms. But Tim continued to embody so many of the contradictions we’ve been seeing in Montana, people refuse to fall clearly into one of the camps that we’ve divided ourselves into over this issue.

Tim Stevens 

There are plenty of people who don’t think do I do out there? And it may be the majority, I don’t know. Like, the big second amendment people like I’m not that person. I don’t feel like anyone’s going to come take my guns. Like, I don’t agree with that. I don’t believe that. I don’t have a problem with people checking my background, to make sure that I should be having, like, I don’t have a problem with it. And I feel like I am in two worlds because I’m a politically pretty progressive person. You know, and I’m proud of that. And I I’ve always been.

Stephanie Wittels Wachs  12:17

Because Tim’s views don’t fall into either extreme. He said, he often feels out of place, like, for example, walking around a gun show.

Tim Stevens 

You know, I feel like in like the pro-gun world, either you’re pro-gun or you’re not pro-gun, right? And so you like you buy into that whole thing. And like, in my mind, any reasonable move to address gun safety is met with that was just the camel’s nose under the tent? What’s next? You know, like, like, we can’t give up on anything? Because if we do, then it’s the beginning of the end. And, and I just don’t believe that, like, I don’t believe that, you know, sure. There’s people out who want to, like, make sure citizens can’t hold guns, but like, I don’t think that that’s where the power lies. You know, I think that the power lies in doing like reasonable things to make sure that we’re not like killing ourselves, you know?

Stephanie Wittels Wachs 

This was all a lot to discuss, especially since it was all happening at the break of dawn as we ventured further and further away from any signs of civilization. But while Tim and I chatted, the sun slowly rose over the mountains, illuminating the earthy tones of the windswept plains. There were these glows of rich blues and vibrant oranges. It was stunning, eventually, we arrived at our destination, a seemingly arbitrary pull off where Tim informed us we were about to climb under a barbed wire fence and onto the open plane to begin our hunt. Here we are. This is it.

Tim Stevens  14:13

As I always say my own little ask for permission.

Stephanie Wittels Wachs 

Oh, that’s nice. What do you say to yourself?

Tim Stevens 

I just you know, I just, I think that there are whatever you want to call it guardians of this land, spirits, whatever. That watch over this place. And I just asked for permission to come here. And if I’m successful, I’ll be respectful and appreciative and it’s kind of woo woo but I just I feel it right here. You know, and so I don’t I don’t think that Native Americans are too far off at all with that whole thing.

Stephanie Wittels Wachs 

I’m gonna say that’s amazing.

Stephanie Wittels Wachs 

Feels great. I was really appreciative that Tim inspired us to take this moment and acknowledge the land and significance of us being able to do what we were there to do. I mean, how often in life do we just get to stop and take a moment and close our eyes and breathe in and express gratitude. So we all said thank you, we suited up and our hunters orange, Tim with a rifle slung over his shoulder, Kegan with his recording equipment slung over his and our little hunting party headed out with Tim leading the way.

Tim Stevens 

It feels right?

Tim Stevens  16:01

There’s a stream at the bottom of this canyon. And it’s a nice place that’s got good grass, good water, it’s out of the weather. Critters like to hang out down there. And we normally try to sort of catch them on the move in a place like this because they’ll be out in these […] fields, eating.

Stephanie Wittels Wachs 

This feeling of appreciation for the landscape only got deeper as we trekked across the plane and down into a small valley. It is so gorgeous. Like it has been a while since it’s not just gorgeous. It’s gorgeous and quiet and still and meditative. I really can’t describe to you just how bitingly cold it was in the wind, but eventually we made our way down toward the stream and it got a bit more tolerable.

Tim Stevens 

Just take your time. The good thing is that now we’re going to be out of the wind.

Kegan 

Almost immediately.

Stephanie Wittels Wachs 

All right girl from Texas.

Tim Stevens 

So, the critters go down into places like this for the same reason we would want to because they’re out of the wind. That was that. Was that a good descent? Yeah, success.

Stephanie Wittels Wachs 

I did it. Listen, I love podcasting. But this is the one time where I felt truly limited by not working in a visual medium. Our little trio hiked through the most picturesque rolling prairies. I mean, we could see for miles and miles in every direction, just huge swaths of land stretching out ahead of us in the most flattering early morning light. But in terms of how it sounded, it was so quiet.

Tim Stevens  18:37

That’s one thing that a place like this will give you is silence. Nothing. It’s rare that you get into a place of silence

Stephanie Wittels Wachs

Eventually, all of that silence and stillness paid off.

Tim Stevens 

There’s a shit ton of elk over there. Way off the piece so we can’t hunt them. But let me get a reference point here. If you take these binoculars and follow that Butte down to the left there there’s probably frickin 75 to 100 of them standing you’ll see and it’s really obvious

Stephanie Wittels Wachs

It’s just like a giant clump of have little brown animals like there’s like hundreds of them looks like a ton, hanging out, doing nothing. Shortly after spotting them, Tim let us know that this herd was so far away on off limits land that we couldn’t actually hunt them. Now, it does feel a bit anticlimactic in the moment. Sure. Was that outweighed by my relief that we wouldn’t actually be shooting an animal that day? Absolutely. So we settled for sitting in some silence engulfed by beautiful scenery, watching a herd of majestic creatures through Tim’s binoculars. And you know what, even though we didn’t shoot anything, we kind of got the point of what it means to go hunting.

Tim Stevens  20:29

Look at them. I’m so psyched that we found them

Stephanie Wittels Wachs

Does that make you like, kinda like, […]

Tim Stevens  20:39

You know, that’s the thing. It’s like, I am so much more unsuccessful than I am successful in terms of actually harvesting an animal. And, you know, generally, the rule of thumb with an elk is that you got to put in, like, 10 to 14 days in the field to see success. And, you know, I could care less if I if I come home with that or not. But this I mean, look at this, you know, this is why I come and that’s sort of like, for me, the reward. And if I if I happen to be fortunate enough to harvest and well that’s great. But it’s really all about this. And being on the landscape in a completely different way, you know, not just recreating, you’re sort of tapping into some really bold roots.

Stephanie Wittels Wachs 

We lingered for a while taking turns looking out at the herd. You could even see them with the naked eye once you knew where to look. But eventually, my body was telling me it was time to head back to civilization, or at least heated cars. Truly, like can your toes freeze off or fall off?

Tim Stevens 

You can get frostbite, so we don’t want to have that happen. So let’s move our way back to the truck. Look at you everybody. What a great find, I am so psyched that we see them.

Stephanie Wittels Wachs  22:09

Yeah, we brought the good vibes today, Kegs.

Stephanie Wittels Wachs 

I am so glad that I didn’t have to end up shooting an animal. In fact, this was kind of the perfect outcome. In a way, I got to see these big majestic creatures without putting a bullet in one and being out on the land with Tim really did help us understand what drives hunters to be such vocal supporters for the activity that they love. And the weapons that are inherently a part of that. Tim was such a great sport for taking us out there. And to be honest, I keep thinking back to our conversation as these gun debates are heating up once again. He wasn’t approaching it from a place of fear. He wasn’t thinking there were people coming for his guns to take away his ability to hunt. He was able to see the bigger picture and understand that there are practical ways to keep people safer, while he can still enjoy going out on the land and harvesting healthy protein for his family. And then a time when we feel so, so divided. It was extremely special to be able to share that moment with Tim and I hope you enjoyed us sharing it with you. Take care be well. Talk to you soon.

CREDITS

LAST DAY is a production of Lemonada Media. Jackie Danziger is our supervising producer. Our producers are Kegan Zema and Giulia Hjort. Hannah Boomershine and Erianna Jiles are our associate producers. Music is by Hannis Brown. Executive Producers are Jessica Cordova Kramer and me Stephanie Wittels Wachs. We are thrilled to partner this season with the Candida Foundation, the Annie E. Casey Foundation, the Pritzker Pucker Family Foundation, Levi Strauss and Co, and Everytown for Gun Safety. You can find more mental health and legal arms restrictions resources along with info about some of the voices on the show in the show notes and at lemonadamedia.com/show/lastday. If you want to hear more LAST DAY, we have two whole other seasons. Please go listen to them wherever you’re listening right now. And while you’re there, I implore you to take a moment to rate review and subscribe. It is the number one way that you can help the show. Join our Facebook group to connect with me and fellow LAST DAY listeners at www.facebook.com/groups/lastdaypodcast. You can find us on all social platforms at @LemonadaMedia. And you can find me at @wittelstephanie. You can also get bonus content and behind the scenes material by subscribing to Lemonada Premium on Apple podcasts. I’m Stephanie Wittels Wachs. See you next week.