The Funny Thing About Crippling Depression (with Comedian Gary Gulman)

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For most of us, our mental health took a hit during the pandemic. Gary Gulman knows a little something about severe depression. His HBO special, “The Great Depresh,” goes deep into his experience being hospitalized, getting treatment, and the ongoing road called recovery. Guest host Stephanie Wittels Wachs talks with Gary about her own bout of severe depression after losing her brother Harris Wittels, making art out of struggles with mental health, and what specific treatments helped Gary find hope and joy again.

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Andy Slavitt, Stephanie Wittels Wachs, Gary Gulman

Stephanie Wittels Wachs  00:18

Welcome to IN THE BUBBLE. I am your guest host Stephanie Wittels Wachs. Our beloved Andy is on a much needed vacation. And he has graciously let me slide into the host chair here to talk about a topic, we are both passionate about, mental health. rising rates of deaths of despair, including suicide and overdose, suggest that we are in the midst of a real mental health crisis. And yet, it can be really difficult to talk about this stuff. I think most of us would agree that our mental health took a hit during the pandemic. Mine certainly did. Suddenly cut off from our communities, friends, extended families. I mean, I remember my kids couldn’t see their grandparents for months, it was awful. We were consumed with fear and anxiety, poring over horrific news, trying to balance full time work with full time parenting and weighing every decision through a life and death lens. It was really hard. And if you’re a longtime listener of the bubble, or you listen to my show last day, you may know that the hard stuff didn’t start for me at the pandemic. My brother Harris Wittels who is a beloved comedian, died of a heroin overdose in 2015. And when that happened, I became severely depressed. We will get into some of that during the podcast. But writing my book helped me climb out of a very dark hole, and ultimately led to the founding of this podcast company, Lemonada Media, the very company that produces this podcast, our guest today, Gary Gulman, also knows a little something about severe depression. His 2019, HBO special, the Great Depresh goes deep into his experience being hospitalized for his depression, getting treatment and the long road called recovery. The special is hilarious, but it’s also just really great to see a middle aged man talk honestly about how hard life can be. Most guys don’t talk about this stuff. And data suggests that it’s taking a real toll suicide was up 35% From 2000 to 2018. After two years of steady decline, the rate jumped back up again and 2020 driven largely by an 8% increase in men between the ages of 18 and 25. Hopefully, conversations like this will help change that. You’ll hear a little bit up front where I talked to Gary about making art out of our shared struggles with mental health. And then we dive into what worked to treat his depression. I hope that this episode inspires those of you who are struggling to turn that around and funnel that energy into something that brings you and maybe others hope. For me. It’s making podcasts for Gary at stand-up comedy. But I think the lessons you’ll hear today can apply to all of us. So here we go.

Stephanie Wittels Wachs  03:30

Gary, hi. I am so excited to talk to you today about creating a very funny thing out of a very unfunny thing. After my brother died, I also went through a crippling depression, like same but instead of writing a comedy special, I wrote a book called everything is horrible and wonderful. Yeah. And it honestly kind of wrote itself in the year after he died. And it was sort of a lifesaving ritual for me. And as I was watching your special, I was wondering, was it like that for you? Was there a moment where you went, Oh, crippling, depression is funny. I want to turn this into an HBO special or was it more organic?

Gary Gulman  04:15

Oh, that’s such a great questions. In some ways. It was part of my recovery. Yes. But I had to get to a certain point in my recovery, to even be able to get on stage again. And so the, the, I guess the blessing of it was that I was so effed up that when I did finally have enough energy and desire to get out of the house to get on stage, I was clearly there was something wrong. My lips are raw because my anxiety would cause me to bite them and chew on them and my house. I was barely able to make it to the show before it was over, I would always go on last, because I was always late. And I had to address what was going on with my face and my posture, and my hands where I had tremors from medication and nerves. So I had to address it. And the easiest way for comedians who address tiny things by making it into a joke. So I would say something to the effect of ever get recognized in the psych ward. And then I would tell this story of about being recognized in the psych ward. So as I can remember thinking, when I got right recognized in the psych ward, I thought, if I ever get out of here, if I survive this and avoid a lobotomy, and office, I will have to talk about this because this is a good jumping off point. Because it’s objectively funny. So it wasn’t that hard to keep talking about that. And then I happen to share my manager who was very patient, and unlike every other manager I’ve ever had, was creative, like, had creative ideas, and not just let’s try to get you 10% more. He said, I know you only have like 15 or 20 minutes of material on your depression and your recovery. But what if we did kind of a hybrid of a documentary and I said, that’s a fantastic idea. And when I’m feeling better, let’s think about that. And so that’s what happened. And he introduced me to a documentarian. And so that’s how the whole thing came together. So it was the perfect therapy, sort of occupational therapy, but my occupation is comedy.

Stephanie Wittels Wachs  06:45

It’s like occupational therapy meets the right people to give you the right messages and like the right amount of pressure.

Gary Gulman  06:51

Yes. And it was blessed from the beginning. I felt like, usually things in showbusiness are six months of waiting for a no. And this was the director when we met, he says, yes, I want to work on this. And then he said, Do you mind if I asked my friend, Judd Apatow if he would executive produce it? Because it’ll make it easier to sell it to HBO? And he has great ideas. And he’s really helpful. So I see. Yeah, of course. But thank you for asking. I wouldn’t want to be foisted upon me. So it worked. Like nothing else I’ve ever been a part of everything else is has been really a grind. So that’s why I say blessed or the planets aligned or whatever combination I’ve sort of I don’t know about you as being a Jew. I’ve sort of cobbled together this religion of combining good reads, homepage quotes and some of the commandments and then Indigo girls lyrics.

Stephanie Wittels Wachs  07:57

That’s exactly my recipe for my philosophy. So weird, it’s exactly mine. I think that sounds so familiar to I had a live agent who said to me, like, hey, it was the same thing. I had put an essay online and I was like, an agony. And all these people I didn’t know started saying, like, thank you for putting words to a thing. I felt I didn’t know anyone else had ever felt that way. Because when you’re in that hole, you think no one’s ever felt that way. You’re like, surely I’m the only one. And the messages in your head are just so awful. And then once I started getting that feedback, it was like, I couldn’t really talk to people in my own life, but for some reason, hearing from strangers was okay. I don’t did that happen to you too?

Gary Gulman  08:48

Totally. Because it also feels redemptive, or I don’t know if that’s the right word, but it feels like, Okay, this horrible thing happened. But if I can make it easier for other people, then there will be some sort of positive alchemy. You know, what I wanted to ask you when you’re talking about the feedback did you find and this was the case for me with yours because it’s not. This was not my first depressive episode. This was the deepest, longest and required the most hospitalizations, the most frequent times in emergency rooms. So it was the worst one, but there were other times and the thing that always kept me from really applying myself to talking about depression was that I can’t get it perfect. I can’t get it right. I can’t explain how this thing that really is impossible. This is describe, I can’t so if it’s not perfect, and it’s not exactly when I’m not going to do it at all, I have to admit that there are parts of the Great Depression that are things that I wanted to be able to say funny that I never, the thing that I really missed out on, or felt that was lacking was this idea that the English language was problematic in describing depression, because the word depression is also the same word we use to describe, oh, my favorite baseball team lost in the World Series. I’m depressed. So the problem with comedians is it’s worthless unless it gets a laugh, which is stupid. But we’re programmed that way. So I left that idea on the table because I could never get it to, to really land but I mean, that’s just the example of wanting it to be perfect and holding on to it until it is and just you wind up denying people something of quality, because it’s not perfection.

Stephanie Wittels Wachs  10:50

Okay, wild that you are making me understand this now. But that is exactly why I think I was able to even publish the book because I was so out of my like, my head. The idea that like, oh, no, am I gonna fail? Like, I don’t care. I don’t care if I fail. I don’t care about anything. Like I’m like, there’s nothing else that anyone can do to me. That’s gonna hurt me anymore. Because I’ve already been hurt the most I’ve ever been like that judgmental, horrible meanie that lives in my brain. Like, I just didn’t care anymore. And so once I let that go, the perfectionism part. Like, it was easier to do. And then in fact, I remember like you’re saying a couple years later, because it takes time to write books. When the edits came back, and I had to revise. I was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, this has to, we have to change. And I had an amazing editor who said, please do not eff with this. This is so honest. And like, yeah, you’re really raw here. And that’s what we need to keep. That’s why it’s working. So I almost think like the perfect part is annihilated when you’re in that state. So you’re able to put out work that is just more honest and true than anything you’ve ever done.

Gary Gulman  11:57

Yeah, but it’s also interesting and helpful that you were able to rely on somebody else. As a critic and sounding board, I found that very helpful, where I would have never released the great depression because it wasn’t perfect. I my director and job and my manager said, No, this is really strong, you may not feel great about it, because you’re looking at every sigh and every blank and you hate your voice. So it’s really important to have somebody who would trust not a yes, man, but somebody who is objective and kind and thoughtful. And even when Mike or Judd would criticize it, it was in such a constructive, unkind way that I, was very helpful. And I could tell when they were being honest. And so that was really important.

Stephanie Wittels Wachs  13:10

Yeah, I mean, I’m so glad, selfishly, that you got over the size and the beats and the moments because it’s so profound. And it’s like, whenever there’s something that really intersects like personal and universal, I feel like that’s when we just like when it blows up, you know, this is about me, but it is not about like, it’s about all of us, like you’re not as unique as you’re speaking about, like humanity, and it’s so resonant, you know?

Gary Gulman  13:43

The other issue. And I was wondering if you had this issue was that when I first started on this, I said, well, my friend Chris Gethard, and my friend Maria Bamford have talked about this stuff, and they’ve done it so well. What the hell am I adding? And then I remembered, oh, but you do have some specifics that you can incorporate and that will help you distinguish it. So it’s a really helpful component of originality and certain breakthroughs in terms of ideas that resonate.

Stephanie Wittels Wachs  14:18

Oh, yeah, I mean, yeah, I read like Joan Didion’s book. I was like she already wrote the grief book. Why do I need to write another one? There’s no need. The Year of Magical Thinking. I inhaled that book. I read it. It was like the only thing that made me feel like I was like, oh, okay, wait. Joan Didion has been through this. Okay. She lived through it. So maybe I can too. But it’s like, well, Joan Didion didn’t have a comic for a little brother who died of a heroin overdose. So exactly. My experience is unique. Let’s take a quick break. And when we come back, we will talk about what’s often at the center when we unpack depression for childhood. Let’s get into the special because I can already tell I could talk to you for 1000 hours and I know you’re busy. I would not do that to you. But there were so many parts that I loved but one of them was when you talk about being a sensitive boy in the 70s

Gary Gulman  15:39

Yeah. Oh geez. Yeah. I grew up at a at a time the definition of manhood was so narrow. You were either Clint Eastwood, or you were Richard Simmons. There was nothing in between. There were no Paul Rudd’s. No kind I’d Mark rude billows Yeah, had to be so hard. And Millennials are so accepting of each other and they feel safe coming out to each other in high school even junior high. I have to be honest with you in 1987 I didn’t feel safe ordering a sprite. This will sound nuts but sprite amongst the men of my community was considered a woman’s beverage. Because it’s translucent like lingerie, I’ve never been able to figure out. Also, the word sprite is a synonym for woodland pixie. I remember going on a field trip and on the bus ride home, we stopped off for the fast food restaurant. And I ordered a sprite like a full, in front of everybody. And this bully, he came up to me as I was drinking in front of everyone who said, enjoying your fairy juice, fairy? And I was yes, mortified. But also at the same time, so confused as to how a bully could be that conversant in a midsummer night’s dream.

Stephanie Wittels Wachs  17:26

Very, very funny. But also, that had to be so hard, right? Like, yeah. When you were a kid, and you were kind of growing up, and you were like, I’m not like that. And I’m like that. Where do I land? What was that experience like? Like, how was it being a sensitive boy in the 70s? How did you survive?

Gary Gulman  17:44

You had to be incredibly strong to be yourself. And I just wasn’t that, I wasn’t that strong. And it’s, it’s interesting. I do not know why I chose Richard Simmons for that comparison; I think and I never would have told this to anybody at the time. But it was like I really admired this guy’s ability to be himself at all times, no matter who he was around David Letterman and Howard Stern and just these toxic men and he would not relent, like I always found myself acting certain ways in front of men who were toughen and other ways in front of men who like I really embraced men who had college degrees and especially like, there were I remember, there was this cousin’s husband, who talked about loving books, when I was a kid, and I was like, oh, alright, I can be myself around this guy. But then this guy, who is really into, he worked in a machine shop, and he had a moustache. And he was really into football, I have to be another way around him. So I was just like this, this, this very limited chameleon. And it was just so I was constantly trying to, to impress and please these people who really did not enjoy what I what I was putting out there in my own terms.

Stephanie Wittels Wachs  19:18

So there’s the scene where you talk about this book you wrote in second grade called the loneliness tree. And you shared it with your mom. And, you know, I get the sense growing up that you weren’t talking about mental health of the dinner table. And you know, nor were we. So I’m wondering, like, did you have to get around to that built in shame. You know, finding you just talked about how hard it is in the English language to find the words to describe what this is. And even in the second grade, you were trying to like talk about it in terms of a tree, you know? I mean, how was that? How was that trying? Just sort of overcome that built in stigma that we that we feel I think particularly men who grew up in the 70s?

Gary Gulman  20:06

Sure, it’s interesting, because it runs in families, especially for some reason Ashkenazi Jewish families. My father’s mother was hospitalized with at the time manic depressive disorder. Now they call it bipolar. My father had a very close cousin who attempted suicide at MIT. And my father would visit this cousin occasionally at a facility and come back with just really sad stories and what have really sad stories about his mom and how she struggled, yet it never occurred to them, that perhaps this could repeat and that they should be on the lookout for that. But also, just the, what are we what we’re exposed to growing up, One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest.

Stephanie Wittels Wachs  21:03

Totally, ruined, ruined. institutionalized care.

Gary Gulman  21:08

Yeah, ruined, institutionalized care ruined AECT. I’m not exaggerating when I say those two things, institutionalized care and ATT saved my life. But also, I refuse to go towards that for years. Because of that movie. electroconvulsive therapy AECT as it’s always called, now, it has a very bad branding problem. Even electro shock to electro convulsive is at best a lateral move. And again, pop culture has ruined the reputation of this because of one movie, One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest the most disturbing scene. In the most disturbing movie, Jack Nicholson is held down by a dozen orderlies as they put electrodes up to his temples and mock execute him he’s writhing in pain. And I just have to tell you, it’s not done like that anymore. It’s not, they give you a general anesthesia, and a muscle relaxer, and it’s delightful. The anesthesiologist would say no Gary count down from 10. And I never once got past […]. Yeah, so the stigma is just awful. And as a as a kid who was trying to please his family I didn’t want them to have because I knew how they were not ashamed of my grandmother or my cousin. But they pitied and they and they worried. And they looked upon them as this tragedy that befell them, rather than just a person who got who got sick.

Stephanie Wittels Wachs  23:05

Let’s take a quick break, and then come back to talk about how Gary turned his great depression around. 1I’d love to like, dig into how you actually did start to feel better, good, whatever the adjective is for that. One of my favorite lines was when you talked about antidepressants in the 70s and 80s. And that you had snapped out of it. And what have you got to be depressed about?

Gary Gulman  23:49

Yeah, those were the two leading brands.

Stephanie Wittels Wachs  23:52

I also was offered that many times in my childhood. You know, I think a lot of people worry about taking medication for a variety of reasons. There’s the stigma and shame. We’ve talked about side effects, you know, all of that. But After much trial and error, they seem to work for you. So how did you go through that journey? And can you talk to us about that trial and error and how you sort of kept finding the strength to keep going and trying different medications and getting to the right place for you and then how you felt once you did?

Gary Gulman  24:24

Yeah, another excellent question. I mean, part of it was that the one great thing about me, there are many, but one of them is that I am a really good patient. So if you tell me to take my medicine, I will take my medicine. If you tell me I can’t do this with it. I can’t drink with it. Fine. I do not have really an addiction problem. But I do go to a lot of meetings because I’ve had friends. One of my closest friends would go to meetings. And we, at the time, we pretty much only had each other. So as friends, where we were living, we were isolated. And I had two dogs and this friend and she would go to meetings two or three times a week. And I would go with her. And I don’t, I feel kind of guilty, but I always say what if it worked, just but certain things that compare and despair that these certain adages and ideas compare and despair was very helpful. I said, okay, I’m not going to compare myself to two people. And then the other thing that was so helpful was that, and Kurt Vonnegut talked about this a few times, but he said, the thing that AAA and groups like that are really addressing in a great way in addition to the addiction and the ideas of addiction is the is the loneliness. Yeah, and, and unity I entered. Yeah. And the main thing with the with the medicine was that it enabled me to do a lot of the things that I have done to keep improving. And it’s like this, this glorious feedback loop of positivity and energy depressed person always thinks, I don’t have the energy to do this thing that is going to deplete my energy. But in reality being around people actually bring us energy and actually can be an excellent springboard to more activity, that thing that a lot of people are confused that with, with medicine and life as they think that by white knuckling it or toughing it out, they’re going to make themselves stronger, and their recovery will be stronger. And the opposite is true by white knuckling. You’re reinforcing these grooves and ruts, and you’re making your depression anxiety, more severe and longer lasting.

Stephanie Wittels Wachs  26:53

Oh man. All right, you just said 25 things that I want to react to. So let me like figure out my way. And I thought that, you know, my next question was going to be exactly that. Which is that you started your special right in, first line, you’re like, Hey, I’m depressed or whatever you said, you said it better. But you went right in with the news, right? You’re contemplating retiring, you’re crying and sleeping constantly, you couldn’t stand up all of that. And then you end the special with iron the shirt and I flossed 19 days in a row. That is an impressive character arc, you know? Like if I was gonna write that, right. It’s an amazing journey that you went on. And I’m, I was gonna say to you like, getting from that point A to that point B is very difficult. And it is a long road. And what you what I heard you just say is it took me five years; it took medicine and community and exercise and therapy. And it’s not one thing, it’s a lot of things. There’s no like, magic pill you can take to just like, poof, make yourself feel better. And I think like, in the recovery space, a lot of people get this wrong, which is that I just gotta go to 30 day treatment or rehab, and then I’m gonna be better. And that is not how it works. It is a lifetime of maintenance and figuring out what that formula is. I had a doctor, come on want to call it the magic formula. What is your magic formula? Right? Like? What are all the things that work for you? Perfect. Yeah. And it’s different for everyone. It’s like a tailored suit. It’s not going to be my formula is not going to be I’m five feet, barely, barely, it says it on my driver’s license, your six weeks, right, like, so. I mean, it’s gonna be a different fit. But like, ultimately, like, it’s a multi-layered approach. And I don’t think people understand that. And I think that’s a shame. But like, if we can get people to understand that it’s all these things on top of each other. And I think you just illustrated that beautifully.

Gary Gulman  28:55

Yeah. I mean, because a lot of issues with people who are struggling and the despair, there’s this thing where, well, what am I supposed to be doing? And initially, it’s, I need to exercise I need to eat right? I need to avoid alcohol, and marijuana, and I need to be around people. And so if those things if I’ve done all those things, then okay. But usually, there was one of those things that was missing, I would say I haven’t talked to anybody today. I have an exercise today. And that’s the thing we sometimes lose sight of is making sure that you’re utilizing everything in your in your magic formula, your toolbox. So an any single one of those can provide a step in the ladder or the staircase.

Gary Gulman  29:53

it’s interesting, because I wonder if the fact that this particular episode was so severe and lasted for three years and wound up with me having 30 sessions of electroconvulsive therapy, treatment, whether knowing how hard it was to get better, and how deep it was, has made me evermore I know the answer to this. It’s made me ever more vigilant about my recovery and how I feel. So I mean, this, this almost sounds comical at the time. But my wife and I went on a long, deferred honeymoon. And it required going over we went to Hawaii from Los Angeles. And so the first few days I was there, I sat, I’m not feeling myself in and I’m incredibly anxious. And so I called my, my psychiatrists. And I said, there’s something going on here. And I think it’s associated with the time zones, and he said, yes, people, a lot of people get depressed, going west, going east, they frequently get manic. And he said, that’s part of the cause of this thing called Jerusalem syndrome, where people go to Israel and think they’re Jesus Christ. So he said, get more sunlight, go out tours, get up earlier than you have been and also exercise. And it might have been placebo. But within a day or two, I was like, oh, okay, now I’m enjoying my honeymoon. But it was years ago, I would have never thought to call my psychiatrist on my honeymoon, I would have been just like, Well, I’m gonna, I’m gonna sock and try not to ruin it for your wife.

Stephanie Wittels Wachs  29:53

And it’s living and breathing. Like that’s the other thing like it’s gonna, you can’t just like alright, I figured it out and now I’m going to set it and forget it, you have to keep coming back to it and like, yeah, your dog is gonna die sometimes. And you’re gonna have to be shut in your house for two years because there’s some deadly pandemic. And I mean, there’s, you know, that’s why this show exists in the bubble Andy showed. And this is what this sort of, you know, so you just can’t know what’s coming around the bend, and it’s how you are responding to it, and then how you’re going to your support team and being like, hey, this doesn’t feel right, what do I do, and let’s increase this or do that. And that’s just amazing that you have gotten to a point where we’re, you know that and that’s an amazing success story. for now.

Stephanie Wittels Wachs  32:29

I’m gonna pretend. And there’s something too about, like speaking on it, right? Like just saying, like, you know, instead of just like internalizing it and writing a book about a tree, that’s lonely. You’re saying, Hey, I feel bad. And can you help me figure out how to tweak this to make me not? That’s yeah, like, very simple, but very actionable advice, I think.

Gary Gulman  32:53

There’s this thing when you’re sick, and depressed and anxious, where you don’t want to bother anybody and you’re worthless. And don’t take anybody’s time. And it’s almost comical because I was afraid of bothering this guy. While I was on my honeymoon. He wasn’t on his own honeymoon, I was. Yeah, he was at work and had no problem was happy to do it. And it took 10 minutes of his time, and yet I was concerned about pleasing this person who is not depressed and therefore doesn’t hate their job.

Stephanie Wittels Wachs  33:32

Right. Right. Okay, we have two minutes left, which is just a truth a true shame. Okay, you’re on tour now again, yeah, you’re in New York and then San Diego, we’re gonna put links to the upcoming tour dates, but can you just before we leave, tell us a little bit about your current tour and the ACT born on third base.

Gary Gulman  33:57

This show born on third base is it’s autobiographical again, but it’s more about how poor we were growing up and the effects that had and this athletic gift that I have no idea where it came from, but enabled me to go to college for free so I feel but the thing is, is that it really irritates me that there are people who grew up in similar circumstances who are now saying, well I made it and let me shut the door behind them and make it harder for young people to go to college and that I might have gone to college. I don’t think I would have finished if it hadn’t been paid for I just I didn’t. I was too depressed too many times in college, I would have also had to work and I would have fallen apart. I had numerous breakdowns in college, and it was all free.

Stephanie Wittels Wachs  34:59

But you made depression horrible crippling depression very funny. So I’m gonna guess if anyone could make income inequality angry and funny.

Stephanie Wittels Wachs  35:11

Thank you. Well, mostly it’s ridiculing ABCs Shark Tank and dentistry. Dentists will not take; every other doctor takes my insurance. The dentist has never even heard of insurance.

Stephanie Wittels Wachs  35:35

Every time I call the dentist, they tell me that the they’re going to drop the insurance at the end of the year. It’s like I keep having to change dentists. You’re so right. This is really important. No, this was great. I love talking about depression with funny people. My favorite thing to do.

Gary Gulman  35:58

Thank you awesome.

Stephanie Wittels Wachs  35:59

Thank you, Gary for such a wonderful conversation. And thank all of you for joining us today. You can see Gary on the born on third base tour coming to a town near you find the link to his upcoming shows in the show description. Coming up next week on in the bubble. The midterms are upon us. Andy has some special guests lined up to react to whatever happens next Tuesday night where Republicans take the House and Senate. What does that mean for the future of issues like abortion rights, Andy friends, we’ll let you know next week. I’m Stephanie Wittels Wachs, thank you for listening to in the bubble.

CREDITS  36:53

Thanks for listening to IN THE BUBBLE. We’re a production of Lemonada Media. Kathryn Barnes, Jackie Harris and Kyle Shiely produced our show, and they’re great. Our mix is by Noah Smith and James Barber, and they’re great, too. Steve Nelson is the vice president of the weekly content, and he’s okay, too. And of course, the ultimate bosses, Jessica Cordova Kramer and Stephanie Wittels Wachs, they executive produced the show, we love them dearly. Our theme was composed by Dan Molad and Oliver Hill, with additional music by Ivan Kuraev. You can find out more about our show on social media at @LemonadaMedia where you’ll also get the transcript of the show. And you can find me at @ASlavitt on Twitter. If you like what you heard today, why don’t you tell your friends to listen as well, and get them to write a review. Thanks so much, talk to you next time.

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