Subscribe to Lemonada Premium for Bonus Content

Being “indie famous” is complicated, and Kathleen Hanna isn’t here to water it down. Her career making feminist punk music — most notably in the band Bikini Kill — meant she was attacked for her activism by some and objectified as a symbol by others. But Kathleen and her bandmates continued to fight for respect and wrangle messy topics into punchy songs. Her new memoir, Rebel Girl, is a real treat, and it shows just how much change in the music industry and beyond can be traced back to those efforts. Does that mean Kathleen loves seeing her trailblazing messaging plastered onto throw pillows at Target? As you might expect, that, too, is complicated.

Lemonada has teamed up with Apple Books to bring you the Lemonada Book Club. “Rebel Girl: My Life as a Feminist Punk” by Kathleen Hanna is our July/August 2024 audiobook of the month! For more details, visit http://apple.co/lemonadabookclub.

Follow me on Instagram at @davidduchovny. Stay up to date with Lemonada on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram at @LemonadaMedia.

Joining Lemonada Premium is a great way to support our show and get bonus content. Subscribe today at bit.ly/lemonadapremium. And if you want to continue the conversation with other listeners, join the My Lemonada community at https://lemonadamedia.com/mylemonada/

For a list of current sponsors and discount codes for this and every other Lemonada show, go to lemonadamedia.com/sponsors.

Transcript

SPEAKERS

David Duchovny, Kathleen Hanna

David Duchovny  00:00

When I was thinking about getting on an interview with Kathleen Hanna, I was thinking about punk music, which is not a music I ever gravitated towards when I was a kid. And I was thinking about this one talking with Fred Armisen as well. And there was something about punk sound that was abrasive to me that I didn’t like. And as I’ve learned more about the situation in which punk arose and the people that were making it, I started to realize that it wasn’t just the music. It was the sound of a rebellion, in the sense of it was trying to explode this kind of gorgeous song sound machine of popular music from the inside and making you wake up from some kind of a dream induced by the beautiful sounds of the Beatles or the stones or whatever that I was listening to Elton John and listen, and really listen, start to listen, and not be lulled into kind of, you know, the capitalist record buying public that I was part of, but I didn’t get it when I was a kid, and now, talking to Fred, talking to Kathleen, reading about Kathleen, reading how Kathleen talks about the music, the punk music, I realize I missed that, and I’m happy to get it now that the discord or the abrasive sound that I thought I was hearing was actually a wake up call. I’m David Duchovny, and this is Fail Better, a show where failure, not success, shapes who we are. Kathleen Hanna is a musician and a founding member of the feminist punk band Bikini Kill. She’s long been a recognizable figure in the scene known as Riot girl, and she’s worked with the likes of Kurt, Cobain, Joan Jett and Fugazi beyond Bikini Kills. She’s also started lots of other bands, like Amy Carter and Viva Knievel and the cult favorite latte gray. This year, Kathleen released a memoir called Rebel Girl, and it documents her lifelong journey out of a pretty harrowing upbringing and all the art that she experimented with along the way. Not all winners, but that’s what we’re interested here in. Fail better, we like the losers too. She’s married to a beastie boy is raising a tweenager, and from what I can tell, at least, has never really stopped thinking about what she can contribute to future generations. And I think this conversation demonstrates that pretty damn well. So here you go, the unmatched Kathleen Hannah good morning or afternoon.

 

Kathleen Hanna  02:24

Good morning.

 

David Duchovny  02:26

Nice to meet you.

 

Kathleen Hanna  02:27

Nice to meet you.

 

David Duchovny  02:30

I want to thank you for writing this book. I you know, what I’m kind of interrogating on this podcast a little bit, is if you have a system that’s fucked up. And I’m talking about success and failure to succeed in that system is fucked up, is a failure, in a way. And what I never got about punk, and I’m sorry for using that word, you know?

 

Kathleen Hanna  02:55

I know. I love the word punk.

 

David Duchovny  02:56

Okay, what I never got about punk was that failure or dissonance or harshness in music, which was not something that I was clued into. You know? I was like, oh, music’s beautiful. Whatever that failure to me, I was seeing it as failure is, is a revolutionary act and a success. That’s the success of punk is that failure. And I fucking never got that till I read your book, you know? So I’m rambling on here at the beginning, but I’m just very excited to talk to you, just to learn, just for me to keep learning. I don’t want to be that guy that says, teach me, or I’m listening or whatever.

 

Kathleen Hanna  03:38

Yeah, no I get what you’re saying. I mean, I feel most successful, and I love the title of your podcast, by the way, and I love, to me, failure is the best thing, and it’s what I learned from and what I, in a way, strive for. I don’t like try to fail, you know, but I feel like, I mean, we’re both creatives, and in that world, I’m sure we’ve both learned that, like some of the best things we’ve ever done, started with mistake, started with you take a mistake and you just compound it and you just build it, and it becomes a beautiful mess, and it becomes the most interesting, engaging thing, because you’re not trying to do the right thing, you’re not trying to make it perfect. You know, it’s like, it’s the weird tangent in a writer’s room or, you know, like that gets you the best stuff, you know. And I think that in terms of process, that’s true. And then I also think in terms of, for me, you know, I have friends who are massively financially successful, and have Grammys and have MTV awards, you know, and I don’t want that, and I didn’t want that, and, like, that’s okay, but it was really strange, like in the 90s, having my picture in Rolling Stone and stuff, and, like, my mom’s boyfriend was, like. Uh oh, wow. You know, you must, you know, have all this money, and I was still broke, and I was driving like this, uh 70s Dodge Dart, which.

 

David Duchovny  05:10

That was my first car, whenhen I came out to LA.

 

Kathleen Hanna  05:12

That was my first car.

 

David Duchovny  05:14

72 biscuit Dodge Dart.

 

Kathleen Hanna  05:16

Mine was a, mine was a 74 baby blue Dodge Dart. And then I just went to a charger, because they could all, you could change the parts and all of them, you know. So I just kept buying those. But, yeah, I love any, any kind of dodge. And back then, it wasn’t like a vintage car, it was the $400 cheap car. And, you know, is a beater. And I just remember my mom’s way from being like, you know, why don’t you sign to a major label and get money and, like, be able to have a nice car? Like, it’s embarrassing that you’re driving around in this shitty car, but you’re kind of famous. And I was like, that’s just not my goal, is I don’t care about cars. Like, I was like, I’m doing something really important that’s really satisfying. Like, I mean, I do wish that back in the day, I would have not held myself back thinking, I so don’t want to be a sellout, or I so, don’t, you know, I saw friends get famous who got very into drugs, who died of, you know, suicide and stuff. And I was like, I don’t want that to happen to me, so I’ll be the opposite. We book our own shows. We won’t have a manager. Like, I really didn’t know what a manager existed so it wasn’t like I was, you know, I didn’t know what a publicist did. Like, we did everything ourselves, to the point that we didn’t put out as many records as other people because we were doing all of that, and you know, now I have found a balance where it’s like, you know, it’s like being a writer and not having a computer, like it was crazy, or like, you know, you’re about to go on stage and play guitar, and first you take out a hammer and smash your hands, like it was just stupid. Like we didn’t have the tools we needed. I didn’t have the tools I needed to do my fucking job. And once I was like, No, I deserve this like, and it doesn’t make me a sellout just to have the tools, and it doesn’t mean I’m going to go down this horrible road to like, delegate, you know, or compromise.

 

David Duchovny  07:13

Well, no, I there’s a difference between, you know, trying to make money or doing something for money and trying to reach more people you know, because your work is, is you’re trying to make people think, which is, you know or act you know, not act like an actor, but but act in the world, I mean. And that’s I mean, I, I’d like to to get your point of view on that, because I think about like, you know, delivery systems. I don’t know why I like that term, but I remember when I watched that Michael Mann movie about cigarettes, but you know, a delivery system for nicotine, you know. And I think about a pop song as a delivery system for this anti capitalist feminist message. It’s tricky, that’s so tricky, and the message can’t be nuanced, you know, like a three minute pop song can’t have a nuanced message. It’s got to have something that’s, you know, a call to action, a slogan, whatever. And I’m just wondering how you approach the making of a song, and the kind of gaging of success and failure of that delivery system, in a way.

 

Kathleen Hanna  08:25

I think I’ve always been really lucky that I’ve separated. I’ve always said traditional success versus, like, my success like, I feel like there’s traditional success, which is making money, having a certain kind of name, and I had a really fraught relationship with that. But to me, success is when, you know, woman comes up and tells me I was going through a rape trial, you know, and I was the victim and I was, you know, being completely harangued and harassed and treated horribly in court. And when I would go sit back at my table, I would sing your lyrics in my head and like, how can you not feel like the most successful musician in the world, knowing that someone is like recreating your song in their head to get through this horrible time, and also, probably to laugh at what’s happening in a certain way and to maintain their own sense of humor and integrity. And so those moments have always been my success.

 

David Duchovny  09:26

Why laugh? Why? Why does that come to mind at them? Or do you mean just like, have distance on it, like have a perspective on it?

 

Kathleen Hanna  09:33

No, I just like, you know, a lot of our songs are really funny, and especially if you ever come to see us perform, it’s like, we’re very joyous. And like, I tell jokes, and, you know, like, I may not have, like, a tight 10 in the middle of seven. I do tell, I do tell jokes and, and hopefully the book has some humor in it. And it’s like, I think part of our songs, like, we have a song like white boy, and it was like, white boy, don’t left, don’t cry, just die. But it was delivered in this way. That’s like, yeah, it’s like, really angry, but it’s also very tongue in cheek. It’s like, and the girls and the gay kids totally got it. And a lot of straight white guys were like, you’re trying to, you know, this is, like, reverse sexism and all this stuff. And I was like, Well, you don’t get it, it’s not for you. That’s okay, you know. But you know. But that song, actually, a lot of people have been requesting it, and they find it really funny and joyous so, I think there’s, you know, I think humor is massively important in terms of activism and our activist art. I don’t think it’s necessarily because, like, a spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down, but I do think it’s like the thing that will keep us coming back to doing work, good work in the world and creating community is joy.

 

David Duchovny  10:57

Absolutely, so when I enter into what is going to feel like, okay, this is a conversation not with you, but this is a conversation about feminism or this is a conversation about racism. I’m afraid of the humor at that point. I immediately clam up and think, I’m not going to try to be funny. I’m not going to look for anything that’s funny. I’m not even going to think anything’s funny here. And so when you said that, I think it’s an important thing. And also, when you look at kind of the way stand up, comics are kind of trying to figure out how to do it now, because they’re dealing with offending certain people who aren’t taking the joke or who don’t just see it as a joke. It’s a tough one but.

 

Kathleen Hanna  11:41

I mean, I guess I just I don’t watch that many, like, straight white guy comedy people, so I’m more looking for people who’ve who are, like, dealing with their own situations through it. But I’ve also definitely seen, like, um, male comedians talk a lot about toxic masculinity, and it can be incredibly funny. My friend um, Hari Kondabolu was just here, and he’s a comedian, and he did that documentary, I think it’s called the problem with APU, about the character APU in The Simpsons, and he actually ended up changing the way a lot of people talk in writers rooms about who’s going to do a voiceover. And although, you know, he’s also constantly getting death threats, but um, he has this one joke in his set, and it starts out as a dick joke and it ends up as a feminist joke. And I was like, you’re Rumpelstiltskin man. Like, how the hell did you do that? You know what I mean. And I do think it’s important to not get too familiar if I’m dealing with somebody who has, you know that I have a lot of privilege over like, I’m not going to make like, jokes at their expense, or I’m not going to, like, try to be like in the scene or something like that, and be like, Oh, I know what you’re you know. But it doesn’t mean I don’t laugh with everybody like I like, I feel like laughter is such a great connection. I mean, when, when I’m doing a show and I tell a story and I get a laugh, I just feel like everybody has stepped in to the performance and they’re physically participating. Because, like, when you make somebody laugh, you make their body shake. And I mean, part of the reason that, besides Bikini Kill my band that’s actually practicing right after this, but yeah, they’re here they just got here yesterday. I was also in this bandley teagram. Part of the reason I kind of changed from the more like kind of loud and aggressive rock music, which is what it is to dance music, was because I want it. I love that feeling of having people participate through moving their bodies, and when you have people who are kind of taught, like, you know, you don’t own your own body, the only thing that is worthwhile about you is, if you’re fuckable or not, like, who’s watching you like you’re always, you know, the male gaze, all that kind of stuff. And there’s also the white gaze and to have people taking up space and looking and communing with each other and dancing to music that doesn’t make them feel like crap. Hopefully, although I have, you know, made my own mistakes with lyrics and made some people feel shitty and regretted it later.

 

Kathleen Hanna  12:33

You have to be able to fail if you’re gonna do something real.

 

Kathleen Hanna  14:22

That’s the thing is, like I was so lucky that, like in the in the book, I talked a lot about how much I love the band Fugazi, and what a mentor Ian Mackay, the singer of Fugazi, and also Minor Threat, how he was kind of a mentor to me, because they had this song about sexism called suggestion. And at first, I totally loved it. It opened up this world of possibilities. It made me feel like, whoa. If these guys are singing about this, I can sing about it. And what, what kind of material do I have for about this? You know, like they’re singing from the outside, and I can sing from the inside. And then later, I was like, oh, it’s really weird, because it’s a male singer, and he’s singing as if he’s a woman, as you know. And I was like, I kind of have an issue with that, but it didn’t change the fact that song changed my life, and that it’s meant different things to me throughout my career, and whenever I’ve been afraid to step forward as a white person with money who’s cisgendered, whenever I’ve been afraid to step forward, I’m like, I might fuck up, but I’m gonna do the best I can. I’m gonna, like, keep reading, keep learning, and then I’m gonna do the best I can. And I’m so lucky that I have, like, a lot of people in my life who will be like, yeah, you know, I loved you were trying, but like no.

 

David Duchovny  16:11

Aside from the brutality of things that happened to you as a kid, what raised your head out of your own head to say, oh, this is another way. I can see a little further. I can see a little further right, now and then you had and then beyond that. What you’re saying is you had to see even further beyond that, it seems to me, what you’re describing is almost like a a gradient process of awakening. You know, that’s still hopefully happening.

 

Kathleen Hanna  16:39

Oh, yeah.

 

David Duchovny  16:40

Right, so I’m just wondering how you see it like from childhood to adolescence to it’s a fucking long question, I guess, but, you know, and who was holding your hand?

 

Kathleen Hanna  16:53

It was you, David, who was holding my hand. There was only one set of footprints in the feminist sand, and it was because you were carrying me, you know, I had tons of heroes and, and most of them were just people. I saw girls in my community who, like, started bands. And I was like, what you can do that, you know?

 

David Duchovny  17:12

And you’re also active and trying to make that a better place.

 

Kathleen Hanna  17:15

Yeah, I mean, because I was dealing with it, like I was dealing with the sexism at every single show, and it’s like, so weird, because it’s not like Kevin, who’s sitting next to you constantly asking you on a date, or being like, do you like nude beaches? You know what? I mean, it’s like, every club you walk into this sound man being like, are you single or married? And I’m like, I don’t need to tell you that. Just hook up my monitor, that was one guy at the club. There’s 10 others you have to deal with, and it’s like asking their own weird questions, or they think you’re a bitch because you’re a feminist, so they play really sexist music when you walk in, or they try to undermine your show by messing the sound up, and it was only in writing the book that I looked back over that stuff and realized how the cumulative trauma of it, that was part of the thing of the book was like uncovering my capacity for joy and uncovering my capacity for like. I don’t want assholes to destroy my positive outlook, because, at its essence, all of my anger comes from the fact that, like, I really want to enjoy every second of my life, and when that’s thwarted, I get really pissed, and I write songs about it, you know. So it’s like.

 

David Duchovny  18:38

But you’re but at least you’re turning that outward, you know.

 

Kathleen Hanna  18:41

Yeah, I mean, thank God. I mean, besides drugs and alcohol, which, you know, I’ve had a tendency to get overly friendly with, I’m sober now, but it’s like, it really is, I think so many culturally, and I don’t want to say for everybody, but it’s I’ve seen so many. There’s so many people who turn it outwards and are violent towards others and play their trauma out on other people. And then there’s so many people who drink themselves to death or work themselves to death, or, you know, and I’m still, I’m like a workaholic. I’m still processing that stuff and trying to, you know, slow down.

 

David Duchovny  19:26

Slow down, what?

 

Kathleen Hanna  19:28

Like, you know, I don’t know how to relax or, like, just hang out.

 

David Duchovny  19:33

Neither do I,

 

Kathleen Hanna  19:34

You know what I mean, like, I have to have a project going with you if I’m gonna be friends with you. Like, I was talking to my friend the other day about how, like, I moved to New York, I didn’t know how to make girlfriends, so I started a female basketball team, and, like, I don’t know how to play basketball, which quickly became very apparent to everyone, that I started a basketball team and had no idea how to play, but that’s how I met all these like, really interesting. You know women in my community, but, yeah, I’m still like, I’m like, okay, here’s my goal. I’m like, my bandmates in the other room and the guest room, what we call it Kathy’s room, and I have to, like, consciously, be like, I’m gonna go into Kathy’s room. I’m gonna throw myself on the bed and be like, what’s the gossip? And then I’m just gonna, we’re gonna chitchat, we’re not gonna talk about.

 

David Duchovny  20:29

Not gonna write a song. We’re not gonna write us.

 

Kathleen Hanna  20:30

We’re not gonna write a song. We’re not gonna talk about getting the next show filmed, or, you know, let’s work on the guest list, or what’s the set list, or are we gonna add these like, we’re not gonna do anything. I’m just gonna chit chat and catch up with her, but I have to consciously, make an effort, because if given the choice, I’ll go straight to my journal and start writing a poem, or, you know, an idea for a movie, or.

 

David Duchovny  20:56

No, it’s all gotta be useful, because, in a way, that’s our capitalist soul. Like I try to have a hobby, and then like, Oh, my hobby was going to learn how to play guitar. And then I start, like, making music. And actually, you know, so now I’m actually not that I’m making money doing it, but I’m like, now it’s.

 

Kathleen Hanna  21:12

Still a hobby, as long as you don’t make any money.

 

David Duchovny  21:16

Well, then it’s the hobby. But it’s like, you know, what is it in me? What is it in you? Where did you get that lesson? And that’s the final lesson. I think of just being, you know that, why do I have to be a useful cog in this machine? Whether it’s an entertainment machine or a friendship machine or whatever, you know, what I mean?

 

Kathleen Hanna  21:35

Is that your new song, friendship machine?

 

David Duchovny  21:37

It is now.

 

Kathleen Hanna  21:38

David Duchovny, and friendship.

 

David Duchovny  21:42

Sounds pretty.

 

Kathleen Hanna  21:43

Now on Spotify.No, I actually feel like part of my thing is that I don’t want to process a bunch of trauma, and so I keep moving like a shark to avoid it. And so I’ll usually have, like, a few minutes where I start just being like, oh my god, the whole world’s gonna fall apart. Like this other shoes gonna drop, because you know, in my book, in my book, I talk a lot about no, in my in my book, I do talk a lot about how it’s like, you know, just as I would be, like, I found this thing I love to do, which is being in a band, and then the rug gets pulled out from under me, like it’s like for the three quarters of the book, the rug is just getting pulled out from under me over and over and over again. But that, I think all of that together, leads to just when I’m sitting and I’m calm, I feel like someone’s going to take it away from me. And so I busy myself because it’s scary for me to relax. Because when I relax, I’m like, it’s scary for me to be happy. It’s scary for me to sit in happiness. It’s scary for me to take a compliment, like, all that stuff, feels like it’s so weird, because it’s like, I think, you know also, if you just are so used to living in crisis, you don’t know how to, like, that’s my comfort zone. You know, it’s like, if you have alcoholic parent, and then you keep finding yourself dating alcoholics, or, you know what I mean, it’s like, or, you know, whatever, it’s like the repetition compulsion, you keep going back to the same thing, thinking that you’re going to repeat it, but this time, it’s going to be different.

 

David Duchovny  23:27

Right, I always loved I when I first heard that in in AA, you know, Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting the same result. I was like, no, that’s like, that’s that’s winners never quit. You know, it’s like, I don’t get it. I was taught my whole life like, if you know, just keep on banging your head against that wall in one day, one day, son, that wall will crack, and you will walk through into another world. Like, I’m very confused right now. You know what I mean, but I see you similar to me. And then I’m delivery systems again. I’m always looking you see, I see you, you’re now, writing now, you were doing photography, you do music, you’re you’re looking. I see it as like a artistic honesty and a restlessness, rather than, you know, oh, I just can’t sit still or whatever. And I also think that your soul, even as you’re describing it, your consciousness is evolving. So you’ve got something new to say. You’ve got something new to express. Maybe rather than a song, maybe it’s a book. Maybe rather than a book, it’s a photograph. You know what I mean. So when I think of you sitting and writing down, I wonder what were, because we always come across our limitations wherever we go, you know, like if we don’t have the perfect voice to sing, or, you know, whatever so when you sat down to write, what was the expansiveness that you could get? You couldn’t get it in a three minute song. And then what was, when did you run up into a limitation of that form?

 

Kathleen Hanna  24:58

I mean, I was uh, writing a record with some friends of mine. While I haven’t, we haven’t finished it, because I’ve been touring, um, but the first question, writing the book was so awesome because I’ve written essays, I’ve written fanzines, I’ve written lyrics, but this was really like me, just writing down everything that happened to me, and I felt like, you know, I felt like I had a really messy life, but I also felt like I’ve been gifted by the universe, like some really great stories that have beginnings, middles and ends. And it was like I felt almost like I was carrying them around with me, and that I was like, I’ve been given these I need to do something with them, you know. And my friends were sick of hearing my same boring ass stories. So when I sat down, I really did feel like it was really I could do anything, and I didn’t think about a reader. I didn’t think about, how’s this person going to feel about it? I just let all of that go. I just wrote for myself, just anything I felt like. And it was so cool that, like, I’ve heard people being afraid of the blank page, and I’m psyched by the blank page because I’m like, world of possibilities. Like I could take and I could just be like, hey, that’s really heavy. I don’t want to write about that today. And sometimes I’d be like, Okay, I did all the fun ones. Now I have to write about all these people that died in a week, or, you know, whatever, but it felt, I mean, it was awful. It’s the worst thing I’ve ever done in my life. I got sober during that time, started going to AA.

 

David Duchovny  26:37

And how did, how does that line up?

 

Kathleen Hanna  26:41

It just was like, I was self medicating to get through writing the book. And I was like, I can’t keep doing this, you know,

 

David Duchovny  26:48

Like that episode was actually brought on by the writing of the book, yeah.

 

Kathleen Hanna  26:52

Well, no, I mean, I’ve always been an alcoholic. Like, I mean, it’s not like, I just like, became an alcoholic. I always knew I was and I had to deal with it. It was just like when I finally started processing all this other stuff, I realized it was time and I was ready so, you know, it takes people till they’re ready. And yeah, thanks for saying that. You do that so I can, I can say it too because, although I think we’re supposed to not say it, I don’t know.

 

David Duchovny  27:20

I think anonymity is an impossibility anymore, so I think, yeah, I think they got to rethink the second a, you know, and figure how to do it without it.

 

Kathleen Hanna  27:30

I’m not going to talk at length. And if I relapse, I definitely do not blame it on A.

 

David Duchovny  27:36

Well, some of the and I deal with this as a writer. So I’m asking because I’m interested. But was some of it, you know, and I’ve talked to writers on this podcast, and talking to Griffin Dunn and his aunt, Joan Didion, said a writer is always selling somebody out, you know, was for some of it that, I mean, you’re probably, you’re in the midst of processing your own trauma, you know, telling these stories, but you’re also implicating people that you once loved, that you still love, maybe that raised you however fucked up. You know, I showed my mother a movie once that I wrote, and she said I recognize some of the dialog, you know, and that did not feel good. You know, even though it wasn’t horrible dialog.

 

Kathleen Hanna  28:24

Did you pay her? I feel as long as you pay somebody.

 

David Duchovny  28:27

I didn’t pay her, then I think  […]so I wonder how you feel about that position when you started, when you started writing long form, and it was clear you were going to get into, well, this guy did this, and this person did that, and, you know, naming names, and, you know.

 

Kathleen Hanna  28:47

Well, they’re fake. I put fake names in. I don’t my intention was never to hurt anybody or call anybody out. Like, I’m not really interested in, like, punitive forms of accountability so, like, I called the person. There’s someone in the book, if you haven’t, people are listening, haven’t read it, who rapes me. And I actually called, I got his phone number, and I called him, like, three years before the book came out, when I first started writing about it, I said, I’m going to write about it, and I just want you to know that it’s going to come out. You know, sometime could be a year, could be four years, but I’m writing about it because it’s part of my story. And if you need to prepare yourself to get into therapy or to talk to your wife about it, or as I’m not going to name you, I’m going to give you a fake name, but certain people who were around us at the time don’t know who you are yeah, and you know, we had a civil, civil talk. I kind of wish I would have not never called, because I think that was even almost a masochistic gesture on my part, because it is my story, and I did change stuff around about him so people wouldn’t recognize him, and I didn’t use his real name and I didn’t there’s a ton of people in there that I put fake names on I didn’t even name my sister. I just called her by her nickname. But for everybody else, I mean, like, yes, I’ve dealt with some fallout with family and stuff like that, but I have a great relationship with my mom, and so we just meet and talk about it. I mean, yeah, we went through a couple weeks there where things were strained, but when I was doing the actual writing. I did not give a fuck. I wrote everything I wanted knowing that I could kind of curate it before the world saw it.

 

David Duchovny  30:58

You know you kind of instinctually felt your way through how you’re going to perform, how you’re going to look, what you’re going to wear. I mean, you were just making it up as you went along. And then at some point in the book, you talk about how being indie famous, not Nirvana famous, but indie famous, was kind of ruining your meetings, and you know your ability to function as a person of agency in the world, if you could speak about that. But also, I fucking hate when I asked four questions in one. But I just want to not forget, what was it like to see a look or a vibe that you created instinctually, become a brand, become a t shirt or phrase even riot girl, say riot girl, you know, like, that’s girl power.

 

Kathleen Hanna  31:55

Is the one that really okay, that’s that’s the one I can’t avoid.

 

David Duchovny  31:59

Right? So I guess those are the two questions. One, is more of like, explain to me what you mean by being indie, famous made it impossible to be an effective feminist or activist. And then what’s it like to see your heartfelt, instinctual art become a t shirt.

 

Kathleen Hanna  32:17

Our Taco Bell tray liner? Yeah, that was the first, that was the first level of CO optation.

 

David Duchovny  32:24

Yeah, well, your success becoming failure, basically your greatest success.

 

Kathleen Hanna  32:29

Oh, yeah. And it’s like you’re toiling away in obscurity while you know, Posh Spice is buying her 18th house,sorry if she lives next door to you in Malibu, David.

 

David Duchovny  32:39

She’s right here. Posh.

 

Kathleen Hanna  32:41

The thing that, you know, we’ve been talking a lot about capitalism, and the fact of the matter is, it doesn’t stop at the door of the Ponca underground. You know what I mean. And it’s like, I was hoping this is going to be different. You know what I mean, like, and it is different many times, like when you go into a punk club and you’re playing a show, there’s just more participation. There’s people who want to table at your shows about the things that they’re doing and about the political activism they’re doing. There’s people who want to register, people who vote. There’s people, you know, there’s all kinds of things going on. We’ve had people chanting Free Gaza at every single show that we play on their own, starting that. Like, I don’t have to be the person who starts that chant. And that’s been really amazing to see. I mean, all over Latin America. Like, how great. So having said that, I will also say there’s still people, you know, who, even if you’re like, I’m not going to be in that star system, that fame system, I’m trying to be in my community, doing this work, well, I can’t control everybody. And if I’m indie famous, and people start treating me again, like, I’m like, you know, Bruce Willis or something, you know, like, I’m like, this huge star, and I’m no longer a person and, and, you know, we live in an addictive society, so I also become an asset for other people, or I become a drug that other people can use. I become, you know, and I’m sure you’ve had this in your life where it’s like, you thought somebody really liked you, and then they’re like, oh, can you come and do my Gala? And you’re like, I thought we were having a friendship, and you probably were.

 

David Duchovny  34:28

Right, well, that goes back to your discomfort with compliments, or your distrust of compliments. I can I can hear that there. It’s like, oh, well.

 

Kathleen Hanna  34:37

Yeah, in 10 minutes, are you gonna ask me to play a benefit for you know, and I don’t have that so much because I’m very niche famous and so that’s not a huge issue. But the thing that really was was people starting to treat me like I wasn’t. I was objectified as a woman, and I was trying to, kind of like, tear my way out that bag. And then I was with other women who were treating me also like an object. I was like Queen Raya girl, who could be, you know, depending on what the person’s own psychology was, Queen riot girl could be a total asshole feminist who’s like, using feminism as a shtick.

 

David Duchovny  35:26

Capitalist, uh.

 

Kathleen Hanna  35:27

Yeah, like, whatever. Or I could be a goddess who’s come to save them, and they want me to counsel them through their lives. And when I don’t, they hate me and they’re going to destroy me. And because I’m I don’t have a manager, or I don’t, like, live up on the hill away from everybody. I’m hearing all of it, and like, there’s something to be said for protecting yourself, you know, and like not being I was so accessible, is what I’m saying, that it was almost, you know, I was pre internet, so accessible, and I wrote letters to everybody who wrote to me, and people could come and talk to me at shows. And so when people came up and were like, you’re ruining feminism for everyone, you should just quit. You know, you should just donate all your money to a poor family that would make more sense of your values and, like, weird stuff like that, I would just really have to, you know, say, oh, this is just again capitalism, or they don’t even think I’m a person at this point. I want to, I don’t want to go back to the point of, like, you know, what does it feel like walking into Target and seeing a girl power t shirt. So my band wrote a fanzine in 91 or 92 called Girl power. And this is long before Spice Girls used it before it was, like, it’s in the dictionary. Actually, girl is in the dictionary.

 

David Duchovny  36:55

Three hours.

 

Kathleen Hanna  36:56

Yeah, it was supposed to be, like, angry, like, Girl Like, like, you know, feminist Tony the Tiger.

 

David Duchovny  37:02

It’s good.

 

Kathleen Hanna  37:03

Um, but it was really weird when it first started happening, because, like, we’re totally broke, you know, my own community that I was a part of, like, really grassroots style, trying to get feminists to come to our shows, trying to get women to come to our shows, trying to get, you know, people who weren’t typically felt invited to shows to come, because we would play and it would be all white guys and, like, three girls in the back.

 

David Duchovny  37:28

How come? Why was that?

 

Kathleen Hanna  37:31

Sexism.

 

David Duchovny  37:32

Okay.

 

Kathleen Hanna  37:33

You know, I mean.

 

David Duchovny  37:34

Because sexism.

 

Kathleen Hanna  37:35

Because sexism, um, and so we were trying to get them, you know, to come up front. We were trying to do all this stuff. And we were doing all of this stuff because all of this stuff because it was, like, selfish and helpful to us to build an audience to be you don’t write lyrics for a specific group of people, and then you’re singing them to the wrong group of people every night. It feels really bad. So we’re trying to, like, also, we wanted more bands to play with. So we’re trying to get girls to come up front so they can see how easy it is to play instruments and be like, Oh, I could do that. They could see our mistakes and be like, shit, they suck. I could do better than that. I’m gonna go try to do and a lot of people did, and a lot of great bands came up, not just because of us, but in that particular scene. So then you flash forward and it’s now, and I feel really different than when I was broke, and I was having girls come up to me and telling me I was a terrible feminist, and how could I, you know, you know, whatever. And I was having, you know, men just be like, you hate all men and treating me crazy. And it was really wild. And then I’m like, oh, and Spice Girls are, you know, on TV with their peace symbols and their sequin outfits, talking about how Margaret Thatcher is, is a feminist, and I’m just like, help, help. Um, but then later, this thing happened, where my friend had a kid, and she was like 10, and she was to her and her friends made up a bunch of dances to that song, that Spice Girl song, if you want to be my lover, you got to get with my friends. And it’s all about female friendship. And I saw that, and I was like, you know, stop being such a snob. I was like, if I was a kid and I had this, I was like, better than the Red Hot Chili Peppers. You know what I’m saying? It’s like this kid isn’t listening to music about how she’s just like a sex doll. She’s listening to music about how she hangs out with her friends and they’re making up dances together and dressing in outfits as the Spice Girls. And I was like, you know, maybe something that we did kind of trickle down into culture in some ways that are cool. You know, the thing that gets weird is like, I mean, and for you, because you’ve been like, at various times, this, like, international phenomenon where it’s like, you couldn’t get away from yourself, I’m sure. And I had a time, like, where I was like, you know, you’re like, I’m just gonna read golf magazine, because I know I won’t be in. I mean, I don’t know maybe you golf. But I was at a doctor’s office, and I was like, Okay, I’m just gonna read this, like Ladies Home Journal, because I know nothing about girl power, riagirl or grunge or whatever. And I picked it up, and it was like, Michelle Obama espousing girl power everywhere. And I was like, I was like, wow, it’s everywhere. And then for a second I was like, you know, I’m kind of proud of that good like, why can’t I just be like, That’s cool and move on. And the way I’ve always thought about various things being ripped off and turned into, like, empty shticks is like, so what I’m like, you said this before, and you actually reframe something very nicely for me. David, so I want to thank you. Isn’t just when I was saying I couldn’t relax, and you’re like, Well, you’re a creative mind, and you’re like, going a million miles an hour, and you need places to put this. And it’s like, I love that positive spin on it. Obviously, I’m still gonna work on trying to relax. But like, I love I think you’re right. I think I am a creative person, and I do like, I want to be doing 10 creative things at once. I wish there were 10 of me so that I could do all the projects I want to do. And that has been endlessly frustrating to me since I was a child. Like I always wanted to be cloned so I could be in, like, all these different places. And when I think about anybody’s creativity being ripped off, and there’s what a huge legacy as a rock and roll musician, my job is to rip off black people, because black people invented rock and roll music and everything that comes out of it. And so we’re all a part. You know, for me as a white American, I’m always going to be a part of ripping somebody else off. And when I sort of got got in tune with that, and I was like, What am I complaining about? This really isn’t that big of a deal in the worldwide scheme of things. And also, I’m endlessly creative, and I can keep making stuff up. So if a businessman steals something out of one of my fanzines or one of my songs, or a male band takes my lyrics and uses it as their own, without crediting me, I can just be like, I’ll just write another one.

 

David Duchovny  42:09

Yeah. I mean, and when you were saying that, when you were you reframed it for me, my reframing when you were saying that, because when you were describing yourself through my words as a restless, creative person, and you’re saying, Well, I can do this, and I can do that, and I can be there. I really had this image for me, and not necessarily of you, where it’s also hiding for me. If I can, if I can be in 10 places at one time, I don’t have to be any one place. So it is. I could spin it beautiful for you, but I can feel like an asshole for me, because it’s like, well, David, you’re still hiding whether you’re doing that podcast, or you’re trying to write a song because you’re doing that now, or you’re writing a novel because you’re doing that now, or you’re trying to direct. It’s like, yes, it’s beautiful creativity. It’s a restless spirit, but you’re also saying I can’t be in this one place at one time.

 

Kathleen Hanna  43:04

Yeah, but I mean, I think it’s that creative people are, you know, constantly like, oh, I want to do this, I want to do that, I want to do this, and excited and curious and that the really beautiful part of it. Sometimes we hide in our curiosity. Sometimes we hide in being creative. Sometimes we meditate by being creative. Sometimes, you know, if you pick an art form that’s very slow, that’s like time consuming, you can kind of use it as a way to meditate. So I think it’s kind of all of the above. It can be a place you hide and it can be a place you find yourself at the same time.

 

David Duchovny  43:43

I hope so. I hope it’s just a right mixture of neurotic and inspired, you know, whatever. But I just want, I know I have to end.

 

Kathleen Hanna  43:52

Wait, I want to hear about your band, though. What do you what kind of music are you making?

 

David Duchovny  43:55

I gotta listen to it. I can’t describe it. It’s like, it’s just rock and roll you know.

 

Kathleen Hanna  44:03

It’s just an old fashioned rock and roll, Bob Seger.

 

David Duchovny  44:06

No, not quite that. All right. Well, thank you so much a pleasure to meet you and talk to you, and.

 

Kathleen Hanna  44:14

It was fun. Did you have fun?

 

David Duchovny  44:16

I did, I was scared. You were scared. Awesome. You are awesome. I mean, just because […]

 

Kathleen Hanna  44:23

Is it because I’m such a good writer? Because you’re like, she’s a musician and a literary genius.

 

David Duchovny  44:31

It was everything. I just your writing is not self pitying at all. I would say that it’s really clear eyed and really what disarms me as the reader, and what you talked about and disarmed me as an interviewer in the beginning was you’re fucking funny, and the book is funny as well. And that like the gold standard to me of life, you know. So I thank you for that, and.

 

Kathleen Hanna  44:56

Wait till you see my tight 10 David, bye.

 

David Duchovny  45:12

Hey, this was a great conversation again with Kathleen Hanna. What a force of thought and feeling that woman is anyway. I was thinking about these things as my dog walks up. I’m just my dog looks at me like, why are you talking into that piece of metal? You are crazy. Yeah, I wanted to think back on, I guess when I was asking whether or not a pop song or a rock song or a punk song, whatever  is a good delivery system for an ideology, I guess I had a horse in that race, because I always kind of push against what I’ve seen. If I see politics being forward in art or even ideology, I guess from the artistic point of view, I get itchy on that, because I think any kind of overt politics and art turns into propaganda. Whether or not I believe in the politics or not, whether or not I agree with the politics, and in this case, I do, but it’s, you know, the artist’s decision whether or not to approach their art that way, as a political tool, totally legitimate, if that’s your approach, but not something ever that I wanted for myself, and not the art that I was drawn to. But I’m open, you know, and maybe, maybe I’ll get more politicized, maybe I’ll dive in more into the headlines. I don’t know. I don’t know it’s not my comfort zone, but now I can see it, and I thank us like Kathleen, I thank us like Mary Trump for keeping my eyes open.

 

CREDITS  47:21

There’s more Fail Better with Lemonada Premium. Subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content like more of my behind the scenes thoughts on this episode. Subscribe now and Apple podcasts. Fail Better as a production of Lemonada media in coordination with King Baby. It is produced by Kegan Zema, Aria Bracci, and Dani Matias  . Our engineer is Brian Castillo. Our SVP of weekly is Steve Nelson. Our VP of new content is Rachel Neil. Special thanks to Carl Ackerman, Tom Karpinski and Kate D. Lewis, the show’s executive produced by Stephanie Wittels Wachs, Jessica Cordova, Kramer and me, David Duchovny, I mean, the company dammit. The music is also by me and my band. Lovely Colin Lee. Pat McCusker, Mitch Stewart, Davis Rowan and Sebastian […]. Special thanks to Brad Davidson. You can find us online at @LemonadaMedia and you can find me @DavidDuchovny, you know what it means when I say at David Duchovny. Follow Fail Better wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon music with your Prime membership.