50 Shades of Feminism with Toccarra Cash
This week, Jessica is tipsy and June is felled by yet another bout of Olden Days consumption. June relives the half marathon turned Mario Kart race she successfully finished and Jess thanks the fellow Deep Divers who have shared their tips and tricks for surviving their own stays in the underworld. Then, award-winning actor and teaching artist Toccarra Cash joins to talk about the implications of social media and how she’s helping young women adopt a healthier self-image by taking the conversation offline. Remember Deep Divers, say the quiet parts out loud.
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Jessica St. Clair, June Diane Raphael, Toccarra Cash
Jessica St. Clair 00:10
Hi, I’m Jessica St. Clair.
June Diane Raphael 00:12
And I’m June Diane Raphael.
Jessica St. Clair 00:14
And this is The Deep Dive. We’re about to do what women have done for centuries. We are crowded around the fire with our generous hunches. We got babies hanging off our tits and we’re going to share with you our fears.
June Diane Raphael 00:27
Jessica St. Clair 00:28
Our joys, our tips on how to stay alive.
June Diane Raphael 00:32
Now Jess, we’re heating a call that no one has made.
Jessica St. Clair 00:37
Not a soul, but you’re invited to listen, absolutely, because we make one promise and one promise only we will not Google a thing because frankly, we’re too damn tired. Please get ready to go on The Deep Dive.
June Diane Raphael 00:57
Jessica St. Clair 00:58
Hello, my sick friend. Never not sick as mommy’s, the mommy is a sick most of the time.
June Diane Raphael 01:09
A bummer is I was like, Deep Divers, I have a sore throat a really bad sore throat and it’s, it sucks because I’m not really I don’t really have other symptoms. And so I’d like to push through and live my life. But it’s hard, and so I’m in, I’m in sort of a real gray area. But just what I was so excited to talk to you about uh, now it seems comical. So it’s like, I’m gonna go on, so my plan for today, I was like, well really drop in and discuss the fact that I ran a half marathon on Sunday. And that’s I’m going to parameter be bringing my best, most active, healthiest self.
Jessica St. Clair 01:50
Right, where I was thinking we were gonna come on was we just did a happy hour with the Academy with the Deep Dive Academy. And because of your voice issues, you could not join us, but I am a little bit tipsy. Okay, so it’s 4pm, and you said and I quote like, hey, just do like a tight 20. And I was like, of course, I was on for 45 minutes. You I was bringing on people from Canada, you know, from all far flung reaches. People were feeding their kids and drinking.
June Diane Raphael 02:24
Oh, I lost, I was so.
Jessica St. Clair 02:26
Yeah, it was something and so I thought we were both going to be on the tip. But you couldn’t be further from me right now.
June Diane Raphael 02:34
Jessica St. Clair 02:34
And you know, because both you and I had like our old timey consumption, I thought we were good. I thought we were good.
June Diane Raphael 02:43
I was like, oh, I and I, what really bugs me about this is you know, from an Irish Catholic family, like we pride ourselves in pushing through and not getting sick once a year.
Jessica St. Clair 02:57
Listen, I’m not a neuroscientist, but I almost am because Tiktok. You turned me on to tick tock is given me lots of different lessons, okay.
June Diane Raphael 03:08
I need to talk about Tiktok, okay.
Jessica St. Clair 03:11
I’m the school, I’m in the School of Tiktok now and I am a professional. And I’m the professional about the brain. And they there was a wonderful Deep Diver turned me on to this wonderful Irish woman, I can’t remember her name. But she was a real doctor. And she said, those diets where you think kicking the shit out of yourself is the way to get change is the way to heal is the way it does the opposite to your brain. Kicking the shit out of your brain makes it go nope, doesn’t heal. So the best way to heal yourself is to speak nicely to yourself. To give yourself the rest you need to listen to be intuitive to your body turns out our our ancestry has been doing it all wrong.
June Diane Raphael 03:58
Well, that’s lovely. I mean, here’s the thing, like what is so sad is the calculation I hadn’t done and that’s where I’m struggling because it’s like I had already it already decided that that I was done with consumption. And so now I didn’t tell you this. But earlier this week, my youngest son was home from school with a sore throat.
Jessica St. Clair 04:25
Yeah, you made him push through so you could go to Palm Springs. I said when you said I’m sick of like, I know he gave it to you. And I guess what guess what, and you can Deep Divers you can set your watch by it. I was sitting next to June, not more than 48 hours or she was telling you way to get […] we are screaming and laughing and laying my head in her lap. I mean, I couldn’t have been closer. So I will be ill, you’ll know what the what’s the have aged five to seven.
June Diane Raphael 05:01
So sorry, Jess.
Jessica St. Clair 05:04
It’s like for her now I can’t even have my own immune system, it like we’ve synced up our cycles.
June Diane Raphael 05:10
What’s so funny about when we had when we both had consumption was that I was like hiding it from you. And then I, it took me awhile to tell you like, hey, I have to get, like, extra work. And what I said, you were like, I’m on my way. See Fred, so biotics, I’m not okay, and I was like, Oh my God, she’s.
Jessica St. Clair 05:38
It was we’ve learned to hide. We’ve learned to hide these things. But the best thing guys listen, you got arrest and like, I don’t know, it’s very American to feel like you must be dead in order to lay down, don’t get it.
June Diane Raphael 05:53
Jessica and I discussed the movie 50 Shades of Grey at our live had a skin Matrox on it just when I saw her in person in Los Angeles and.
Jessica St. Clair 06:02
Unfortunately we locked ourselves in a very tiny room too, windowless room.
June Diane Raphael 06:07
I felt fine them though, I guess I wasn’t getting I really felt I felt great. That was honestly that’s what is so terrible about all of this is like I was on such a runner’s high that lasted for a week, I felt so fucking great at that show, […] I was like, Mike, these are my friends, you get to do comedy like I was flying, literally was driving home that night, and I’m like, what’s better than this?
Jessica St. Clair 06:35
I felt the same. I felt the same.
June Diane Raphael 06:40
Okay to have people come and pay money to see us do bits.
Jessica St. Clair 06:45
Like it was so stupidly wonderful.
June Diane Raphael 06:48
Yeah, with my dear, dear friends, couldn’t be better. You know, and then and then I went about my business. And unfortunately about one o’clock I thought, oh, what’s that? What’s that tickle? And then the tickle, the tickle turned into whatever it is now.
Jessica St. Clair 07:10
Yeah, tickle in the pickle.
June Diane Raphael 07:12
Tickle on the pickle.
Jessica St. Clair 07:13
Gus bounce back, so hopefully you will too.
June Diane Raphael 07:15
And I’m thinking.
Jessica St. Clair 07:16
And I don’t want to take away from I mean, your marathon pictures. You know, we’re so hiring and I’m half I don’t care. Why are we okay, again, let’s please take the potato famine out of this. Can we take the mentality that we can’t? Okay, I’m really dead away.
June Diane Raphael 07:34
When I came home now, this is what I want to say Jess. I am very proud of myself for doing it.
Jessica St. Clair 07:41
You should be.
June Diane Raphael 07:43
Very proud of myself.
Jessica St. Clair 07:45
You should be.
June Diane Raphael 07:46
When I tell you Jess and I want to tell our Deep Divers too, it’s like natural. You get to talk to you but I also get to talk to our other friends who don’t talk back.
Jessica St. Clair 07:55
They talk to me, they talk back to me. I was on with them all night last night. I was up till midnight responding to DMS from our Academy members.
June Diane Raphael 08:03
Do have a very vibrant you know, yeah, I know the most supercool relationship for me, it’s pretty one sided. I feel them though, Jess okay, I’m so deeply, am I also talked to them through you.
Jessica St. Clair 08:19
Yeah, you do, I send you the screenshots, did you were you disturbed? I was up till midnight, he was sleeping and in our bed and I was in baby’s bed and I might as well been a freshman in college, I was like, we were up all night to get lucky, we’re up all night, like I was like, sky’s the limit. Up till midnight, exhausted, wow.
June Diane Raphael 08:39
Well, I was so excited to tell our Deep Divers that you know, I was running, and you know, couple shocking things happen, first of all, I never trained on pavement.
Jessica St. Clair 08:53
June Diane Raphael 08:54
I never trained on pavement. I was only ever doing my long runs on like, packed dirt at the reservoir.
Jessica St. Clair 09:01
Okay, so terrain.
June Diane Raphael 09:03
Wore the sneakers I’ve worn every time I ran. And yet at mile five, I thought well, I’ve got a blister forming.
Jessica St. Clair 09:11
June Diane Raphael 09:13
And then oh my oh six, I gotta go super wrong on the other foot. Now my seven I’m like, I gotta stop at the medical tent. Do you stop in the medical tent, they give me two to two bandits. And then at still miles seven, as soon as I took off again, I thought something’s very wrong with my hips. Something is so wrong with my hips and my knees. Like, no way we can describe it as like. I felt like my legs were tin, like tin poles where I couldn’t get couldn’t get any absorbency it was like two tin poles. Just like wandering across the ground and the impact I was feeling in like, in every one of my body. Now we’re nearing mile nine and many miles. And mile nine is when I started to feel a mental collapse hit.
Jessica St. Clair 10:14
Oh God, this sounds intense.
June Diane Raphael 10:17
No, it was at mile nine, I thought and first of all, I had a whole plan. I downloaded this new podcast, obviously about Munchausen by proxy syndrome. But I was like, I’m really gonna settle into this case of what’s gone on here. Because on long runs, I always listen to podcasts, listen to my my gotta be with my podcast friends. I listen to horrible stories that keep me distracted up going, but all of a sudden, I’m like, I need music.
Jessica St. Clair 10:47
Yeah, like you need Bon Jovi. At that point you need to now you’re like on Spotify that’s tough while you’re on my own.
Jessica St. Clair 10:56
On Spotify, and I’m willy nilly, I’m willy nilly, I’m wabi sabi with the music, which is like frustrating and my phones out yet. I can’t walk into a process.
Jessica St. Clair 11:11
And people have been curating those playlists for years now leading up, you know, they’re going like, and now I’m going to pace myself. And then I know my oh nine, I’m going to hit two livin on a prayer or whatever it is.
Jessica St. Clair 11:23
That’s right, so I’m all out of sorts. But the other thing that happened at mile nine, is that I actually had the realization of like, I’m gonna finish, which could sound like it was positive. It devastated me, because they knew how long it was. And so it was like, I’m gonna finish, but I can’t finish, but I will, but it’s so far away.
Jessica St. Clair 11:53
Yeah, kind of like labor. That’s exactly so then you’re like, the baby has to come out, I just don’t know how.
Jessica St. Clair 12:01
Exactly, I’m like I, you know, this was the Rose Bowl half marathon. And I’ve only right ran a marathon in San Diego and the energy from the crowd, people cheering you holding signs is so beautiful and so important. At the Rose Bowl, there were a lot of lovely people, obviously cheering you on. The people had some snarky signs.
Jessica St. Clair 12:23
That said what?
June Diane Raphael 12:27
[…] Again, just picture me frantically looking for anything to lock into. You know, I was trying to lock into some system that could help me. And I’m seeing signs like all this for a banana at the end?
Jessica St. Clair 12:44
June Diane Raphael 12:44
I’m seeing signs that say.
Jessica St. Clair 12:48
Wait, what? And her try therapy? Wait, I mean, it’s just like a protest of and a half marathon, wait who did this? Is this a prank? can I blame Gen Z. I can’t blame where they young.
June Diane Raphael 13:02
Jessica St. Clair 13:04
But were they cheering on a friend?
Jessica St. Clair 13:07
I don’t know what it was, and then I saw this runner. Every time I was trying to like calm down and just recommit and ask for help from the universe. To see this runner in front of me, who had a sign on his back. That said, the end is and then in bold letters, not near.
Jessica St. Clair 13:30
Wait, what is this some sort of post apocalyptic future? This is the opposite of the New York Marathon where like you’ve got people like, like, strangers hugging you.
Jessica St. Clair 13:42
And there was you know that but it was really haunting, when I kept on seeing “end is not near” I was like, I can’t mentally so funny running and the distance and what happens your mental state? I was like, I can’t mentally handle that sign.
Jessica St. Clair 13:59
No, course you can’t, that’s nuts.
Jessica St. Clair 14:03
So now we’re at mile 10, and the other thing that’s like very postal apocalyptic about that mile is it’s the entrance of a freeway, so poorly planned.
Jessica St. Clair 14:14
This is poorly next time you could come to the Santa Monica.
Jessica St. Clair 14:17
No, it didn’t mean it’s closed. But it felt so wrong, it was like so kind of like an ad Max.
Jessica St. Clair 14:25
Felt like a hunger game, it felt Katniss.
Jessica St. Clair 14:32
It was like, I’m so far from the world as I know it. I’m entering I actually think I was entering an exit ramp on a freeway. And it was really shocking, and I must say one other thing about the Rose Bowl. I’m sure they’ll never have me back after this.
Jessica St. Clair 14:52
Okay, more on that after this quick break.
Jessica St. Clair 15:13
But I want to say this as a word to the wise, because I don’t fuck with hills.
Jessica St. Clair 17:10
No, it’s hard enough to go flat.
Jessica St. Clair 17:13
It’s hard enough, that’s my sign, it’s hard enough. Okay, the way that this course was billed to me and on their website, it said what am I cuz I’ve run a 5k, that was what years ago and I do remember one hill at the beginning, this is one hill, the very beginning, one incline and then flat. Okay, do the first hill it’s like yeah, that’s a hill alright, and then Jessica. Multiple sneak as my friend Alexis said, sneaky slopes.
Jessica St. Clair 17:47
This isn’t Mario Kart. I can’t, sneaky slopes are not for me.
Jessica St. Clair 17:55
Sneaky slopes, like every I kept on looking out. I was looking straight ahead and often I would see. I would see runners going up, and I’m like, What the fuck is that thing up ahead?
Jessica St. Clair 18:07
An optical illusion?
June Diane Raphael 18:08
Like why am I hallucinating? So let me just to finish this off. A lot of my systems are breaking down. I did not feel prepared for those hills yet. I wouldn’t have also I don’t have the knees that can handle running downhill. So it’s like I have to walk down […] I’m gonna injure myself forever. Mile Thames that, you know, running onto an exit ramp on the 110. And then we’re sort of back on the road. And it’s like, okay, I have 3.1 miles left.
Jessica St. Clair 18:41
Oh, my God, I can’t.
Jessica St. Clair 18:45
And then I […] and I was running with my friend Amanda, you know, Amanda?
Jessica St. Clair 18:48
June Diane Raphael 18:49
And I was told to take anything, yeah. I had told her at that point, I’m like, tell me when we’re at because she had the Nike running app on I said, tell me every half mile now. Every half mile is what I’m going to do. I can’t wait to the mile marker that the half mile.
Jessica St. Clair 19:03
Now you’re starting to drain her batteries.
Jessica St. Clair 19:07
So at 11 miles, we hit 11 miles. And I said, Amanda go on.
Jessica St. Clair 19:13
June Diane Raphael 19:14
This is I said, get gone, oh God, you sent her a hand. She turned to me and she said, let’s walk for a second. I said, okay, and we walk for a minute, I said, you got to go ahead, I and it wasn’t even like, you got to go ahead and I’ll be right behind you, and I’ll fill it with.
Jessica St. Clair 19:31
Like, save yourselves.
June Diane Raphael 19:33
Like save yourself because I think I’m going to call Paul to pick me up. Or I’m going to walk out of this freeway and try to find an Uber like, that’s where mentally I was at.
Jessica St. Clair 19:43
Did she leave?
June Diane Raphael 19:45
She did, and she said to me, she said.
Jessica St. Clair 19:48
No, she can’t leave.
Jessica St. Clair 19:49
Really wasn’t her idea of.
June Diane Raphael 19:49
She said we’re in it together, we did train together, you know, I forced her to do it, she had never run a mile before it.
June Diane Raphael 19:51
No it wasn’t her idea, you know? And then here I am bail.
Jessica St. Clair 20:00
So often is what happens when.
Jessica St. Clair 20:02
I know she kept on looking at me, Jessica, and that’s a quarter mile eleven, the end is near.
Jessica St. Clair 20:11
I know what’s wonderful about Amanda is that she encouraged you as I would have been like I already called the Uber. And we would have been done.
Jessica St. Clair 20:19
So she said, do you really want me to leave? Like you really want me to leave? Or do you just feel like I should leave? I don’t really know the difference. But I was like, fuck it start running again, and I got back on the road, you know, and the next two miles were unexplainable. And, you know, here’s the other major piece of resentment I have, then you get to the actual Rose Bowl, okay, sick now you’re there, you thinking the finish line is right there? No.
Jessica St. Clair 20:58
You gotta go past the snack stand or something, you gotta get through the link in the movie version of this, you’re at the end, you know, and this is, you know, a gladiator movie, you run through the arches, and that’s it.
Jessica St. Clair 21:11
No, this was like, run through the parking lot of the Rose Bowl. Yeah, then run through sort of like the backstage setup area where the vendors are, and then like, then you run through the stadium, and then you run quite a bit through the football field.
Jessica St. Clair 21:27
I’ve got notes.
Jessica St. Clair 21:28
And I was just like, I was so deeply resentful. You know, and then we got there, you know, and yeah, and then that, and then it was done, but I was proud of myself, it was very hard.
Jessica St. Clair 21:48
It was when I would have been proud, I would have been proud of you if you stopped at mile seven. So that’s the wonderful thing is that we can set these goals for ourselves. And like, it isn’t the goal, right? It’s the lead up to the goal. And I’ve seen you mean your skin tone, everything’s like you’re blooming. I’ve really noticed nama ministers of ICT, perhaps no, actually, in this moment, the vitality, I’m seeing it. And so and you’ve inspired me, I’ve actually not this week, of course, and I am drunk right now, and I was supposed to go to Bar Method. But you’ve inspired me to make fitness a part of my thing, because I’m like, wow, June’s making, like a commitment to herself. I can do this, too. So I’m really proud of you.
June Diane Raphael 22:33
Jessica St. Clair 22:33
And you should be proud of yourself and your tits looked amazing, you know, in that in that jogging bra. And that was something.
Jessica St. Clair 22:39
That was something, that was something.
Jessica St. Clair 22:43
And yeah, but I’m glad you did. And it’s a wonderful story of friendship that she didn’t leave you behind. It’s really It’s interesting, as I was thinking about when, right after my mastectomy, I decided to hike like three days later, something really insane like that. My friend Kristen came up and we hiked up a very, very steep hill. And I wanted to prove to myself that I this wasn’t happening. And it was very Irish of me. And we got halfway up there, and I realized my lungs had basically collapsed. And I couldn’t breathe, and I sat down, and I was like, oh, you know, and my friend Kristen was like, well, we miscalculated this, you know? And I said, what do we do? We’re halfway up, and what do we do? And she’s like, we’re just gonna sit here until we figure it out. But eventually, I picked myself up and I walked back down. So we always have to titrate when is it time to quit?
Jessica St. Clair 23:36
Yeah, that’s right, that’s a dead end.
Jessica St. Clair 23:38
Listen to our bodies, you know?
Jessica St. Clair 23:40
That’s exactly right, when is it time to quit? When is his time to push? When is it time to pause? It’s so hard to know. And I think there’s a part of me that was like, I felt embarrassed for having exposed so much of my mental collapse. You know, my friend. Yeah, just like it was so dramatic. I always felt that way about early motherhood, not anymore. But I always felt like I always knew people knew. It wasn’t easy for me. Like, I often had to stay, there was never a sense that I could. No one ever said you made it look so easy. It’s like I like, didn’t make the half marathon look easy.
Jessica St. Clair 24:26
Never let them see you sweat, like that was the opposite. And I feel the same things are harder for me, I think, but I would argue and again, I’m going to bring out my loved one who was like, who was like, I’m so mad at myself because I know other people who have gone through this easier and I’m like, who are these people? Who amongst and also if we’re all hiding our sweat from each other than everybody goes around thinking it’s easier for everybody else.
Jessica St. Clair 24:53
You’re so right. And I’m so relieved when I find out that others are struggling not in a happy way in in a way where I’m like, it just makes you feel less alone.
Jessica St. Clair 25:06
Well, I gotta tell you the Deep Divers, and I thanked them, the ones in the academy and of course, we have so many of you listening who aren’t in the academy and I truly wish that everyone would join right now because I gotta get my hands on you, there’s only so much I can do over DM. But you understand I’ll pull you right on with me.
June Diane Raphael 25:24
On Instagram Live, yeah.
Jessica St. Clair 25:26
I’ll pull you right on if you’re in the academy. But since I was honest about the underworld and you know, our which told me I’m not to say staycation, I’m just passing through. I have received and I was up until midnight actually reading a lot of them. I’ve received so many beautiful DMS from people saying I was in the underworld. I’m recently out. Here’s what helped me here were my toolkit you know, someone’s saying Costco has got a great deal on fairy lights, sprinkle them all over your house.
June Diane Raphael 26:00
Oh, that’s such a.
Jessica St. Clair 26:00
Here the cozy shows I watched here are the blankets I covered myself in here’s what comforted me. And a lot of them said, and this is not to give a pat on the back. But again, I’m drunk so you know, whatever. But they said deep dive was my blanket. And, and let us be yours right now. And I felt so seen and comforted to know, that’s the only thing that comforts you I’m not the only one not the only one here who or who has been here to know that someone has lived to tell the tale of their time down there. You know, for you to tell even the tale of a marathon where you just had a mental breakdown. Stop saying it’s a marathon, but it was a half marathon. It’s just saying like, I drank a half glass of milk. I drink some milk, you ran a marathon. But that’s not the point. The point is that you set yourself a goal to run every day and you did it and you prove to yourself you could do it, I would have been proud of you had you quit proud of you for just trying. So what we say to our kids, right? I’m trying I’m proud of you for just trying.
Jessica St. Clair 27:18
And you know, of course, when I came home my oldest son is so competitive and he’s like me too. And he’s like, did you finish? Did you place first 40 to 44 I said no. I died no, I finished I completed it, I didn’t place.
Jessica St. Clair 27:41
And that is a it’s a wonderful lesson now. Not to harp on the underworld, but the antidote to the underworld is laughter It is laughing so hard because in that moment of laughter, you are you can’t think about anything else but the present it is fucking funny to laugh It’s fun. I was laughing I forgot I was on stage, laughing so hard, you know bending myself over pretending I’m getting bent over you know screaming some of the grossest things I’ve ever screamed out loud like what a rush.
Jessica St. Clair 28:20
Because I was the only one that could have enjoyed the movie 50 Shades of Grey and and now between yesterday and today I’ve watched the two others in preparation to do these shows which I’m not attending and I’ve turned on these two characters so much it’s like now I’m where you guys were with the first one I’m.
Jessica St. Clair 28:37
So much drama, too much drama.
June Diane Raphael 28:40
Tell you what happens to the rest of will you see the other two?
Jessica St. Clair 28:43
Well, I know because I googled it last night at midnight I needed to see where were their journey went and it doesn’t sound like anywhere good.
Jessica St. Clair 28:51
It sort of turns into like a mystery but not the kind of mystery we want murder mystery people get the new thing that I was most resentful of is the last shot of the third movie. He she’s sitting reading a book and he walks over with their son who’s like a toddler and then as the cameras repens out you realize she’s also very pregnant with her second child and I’m watching and I felt so mad because I’m like I don’t care how rich you are. No mom of a like 15 month old boy and pregnant has time to read a book.
Jessica St. Clair 29:29
Now I thought you were gonna say then he says come to my playroom and like straps are down on dough and it was torture devices.
Jessica St. Clair 29:35
Okay would have preferred that I found this to be so.
Jessica St. Clair 29:39
That’s the most expensive.
Jessica St. Clair 29:41
Everything else I was getting.
Jessica St. Clair 29:42
He puts her in a dog collar.
Jessica St. Clair 29:44
I was like great, respectful, and portrayal of women respectful portrayal of women shackles and yet this seeing her with that book. I was like, don’t disrespect us like this.
Jessica St. Clair 29:55
That’s crazy, crazy take I’m so sad that the people won’t hear that.
Jessica St. Clair 30:00
[…] disrespect us like that. Okay, I was so, I was like, I’m so fine to give these garbage movies a feminist reading, this is where I stop right here.
Jessica St. Clair 30:13
Wow, that is too, hot take he just gave on 50 shades freed.
Jessica St. Clair 30:22
Jessica, by the way, I think we could launch our own sort of spin off podcast from out of this give me just focusing on 50 shades.
Jessica St. Clair 30:30
100% now, and I was shocked to hear you.
Jessica St. Clair 30:33
It’s just a mini series
Jessica St. Clair 30:34
We talked about this at our happy hour just an hour ago, I was shocked to hear you had never seen normal people, which is absolutely the hottest sex you will ever see on any screen, tiny or big.
Jessica St. Clair 30:49
You know you and Julia levy my best friend have been really up my ass about that for years so.
Jessica St. Clair 30:58
He’s so extreme that you haven’t taken the opportunity to give yourself the best treat the code. A lot of us founded during COVID lot at the Academy members.
Jessica St. Clair 31:08
I know that like an astronaut like orbiting around Earth if Earth was sort of mainstream culture where I’ll dip down but at the strangest of times you know?
Jessica St. Clair 31:20
Know it, but otherwise, I’m just orbiting. Oh, just wanted to share one treat that I experienced this week, which was I had to help out for a table read of a show that’s going to come out. I was reading the role of an 80 year old woman so you’re not going to see me in this show. Okay, but the cast is primarily old people people in their 70s and above 60 leads. And I know you’ve had this experience of working with legends but Ted Danson I got to watch legend opposite Sally Struthers.
June Diane Raphael 31:58
Oh my, in a in a game of cat and mouse.
Jessica St. Clair 32:06
I have never witnessed such amazing performances both touching and hilarious and I want to be around older people for the rest of my life I wish honest and we leaned into this in the academy we read a book called habitude and we made our headboards of what we want our older selves to look like but I gotta tell you what I’m looking forward to being in my seven days because these people are at the top of their mother fucking games. They have only gotten better.
June Diane Raphael 32:42
Jessica St. Clair 32:43
Ted Danson? is a national goddamn treasure.
June Diane Raphael 32:49
Jessica St. Clair 32:52
Okay charming on screen and off.
June Diane Raphael 32:55
Wow cat and mouse is Sally I wouldn’t have ever put that together but that’s a nice that’s that’s the new 50 Shades of Grey. […]
Jessica St. Clair 33:05
It was, and I’m just like, you know in Sally’s like, have you seen Wonka you know she’s asking me for my Rex and I and she made a video for BB because she loves Gilmore Girls. I thought this is well I would pay admission for this just to be in the presence of these. You know, I feel like sometimes this culture prizes, youth so much. And we forget that our elders hold the key there were fuckin kingdom not only their professional prowess, but also their knowledge of life. Like these the they’re living their best goddamn lives. Sally’s like I performed in Asbury Park two weekends ago had the most wonderful Italian food. And I’m like, yes, I can’t wait so I yeah, that was a treat. A true treat to be to be in the presence of over elder great.
Jessica St. Clair 34:06
Elder greatness. Oh, there’s nothing about her believing me. Yeah. Jessica. I hope we can live into our own elder greatness as the years go by. I know we will best is yet to come. Thank you for joining us Deep Divers. We have a very special conversation with my dear friend Toccarra Cash, I cannot wait for you to hear it. Jessica was not able to join but it’s it is a real treat and I can’t wait for all of you to get to know her.
Jessica St. Clair 34:37
Alright, Deep Divers hang around. We got more after this quick break.
Jessica St. Clair 35:01
Deep Divers. I have a special guest about to join us. I’m going to introduce her right now Toccarra Cash. I know from working with her she started as Malika and the freeform who television show everything’s trash. Starring and creative a Phoebe Robinson is now streaming on Amazon Prime, please go check it out. She is an award winning actor, a voiceover artist, a public speaker and the founder and host of the image monster workshop, which is an interactive workshop designed to provide a safe space for young women of color to explore and adopt a healthier self image. There’s so much to say about her and we’re gonna get into more of it. But right now, I want to welcome her to the podcast, hi Takara.
Toccarra Cash 35:49
Hello, June. I’m so happy to see you.
Jessica St. Clair 35:52
There’s so many things that I want to talk to you about. And I’m going to start with something that I know about you and you know about me. And yet we’ve never we’ve only been together once during this time of year, but I know you’re a crazy Christmas person.
Toccarra Cash 36:12
Oh my god big time. It’s bad, it’s really bad.
Jessica St. Clair 36:16
And you know, I am too and we did we saw each other gym club Christmas parade last year, but we didn’t see each other this holiday season. And I was laughing so hard because deep divers just so you know as we were trying to get the schedule together to have this conversation lots of emails going back and forth and like November and December and Toccarra’s emails were like basically like she’s down for the holidays like she’s available booked out girl booked out but with the holidays.
Toccarra Cash 36:50
Yes, specifically for the hot like not booked out because I’m working. Not booked out for anything important booked out because Christmas. Chris, Christmas I like just took down my Christmas decorations. I just took them down. I usually managed to keep them to get them down before MLK Day, that’s like my deadline, that’s my heart out that’s my okay, you trippin get them down, like no girl, they just came back.
Jessica St. Clair 37:21
Okay, so I am actually going to explore next year because just so you know Toccarra every year after the holidays I keep a list of what I want to improve on.
Toccarra Cash 37:22
Oh, notes that girl, oh note in my notes.
Jessica St. Clair 37:37
About what I want for next year so I can remember the one of the things that I I’m going to be exploring next year is a longer tail for this season. Because I’m someone who brings it all down on like the the day after New Year’s like it’s all down. Okay, yes, but now, these weeks of January are grim. They’re crimps fill.
Toccarra Cash 38:01
They’re, they’re pretty.
June Diane Raphael 38:02
They’re grim, I’m like, why not leave that tree up?
Toccarra Cash 38:06
Yes, even when I took everything down. My partner just said, it’s like you just took all the joy about what you did. I said, I know, that’s what I’m trying to like, you know, and then I went and got like, things from Home Goods that I didn’t need and flowers of course you did stuff to try to inject some more joy into that wasn’t Christmas just trying so hard to, recapture that but it’s not the same it’s not saying it’ll never be the same until next Christmas season and they will never be the same.
Jessica St. Clair 38:35
So one thing just so you know, that’s in my notes app is because of my one of my girlfriends did this and it’s something I want to explore is she took down she left the tree up. Okay, took up, okay, took off the ornaments.
Toccarra Cash 38:52
Left white lights on.
June Diane Raphael 38:54
Ooh, for the whole month of January, and honestly Toccarra maybe into February.
Toccarra Cash 39:00
I’m digging it.
June Diane Raphael 39:01
Toccarra Cash 39:03
Giving winter without Christmas.
Jessica St. Clair 39:05
And let’s explore that, let’s explore that concept that Christmas can transition into winter warm.
Toccarra Cash 39:14
I’m loving this, I’m gonna put that on my note in my notes. Christmas can transition into winter warm because Lord knows we need it, my God the sun finally came out today around here.
Jessica St. Clair 39:26
That’s what I’m saying, like, we need it so Deep Divers I’ve wanted to have Toccarra on early you know, honestly earlier but I knew she goes down, you know, she goes down pretty hard after like Halloween, she’s an.
Toccarra Cash 39:39
Oh, it starts with my birthday because my birthday is the end of September. So it’s literally my birthday September 27, so it literally starts then and from then until January until MLK Day.
June Diane Raphael 39:53
I love it so much.
Toccarra Cash 39:58
I’m booked out.
Jessica St. Clair 39:59
Okay, so Toccarra, you’re booked out for your holidays. Oh my god, I’m happy to see you.
Toccarra Cash 40:06
Same, so happy to see you, I’ve missed you.
Jessica St. Clair 40:10
I’m happy to see you, last time I saw you was on a picket line.
Toccarra Cash 40:13
I know oh my God, 118 days girl.
Jessica St. Clair 40:17
Please share with our Deep Divers how the image monster came to be? What inspired it?
Toccarra Cash 40:27
Absolutely, so the image monster just to let you all know exactly what it is. It’s an interactive workshop that is devoted to helping young women of color aged 18 to 25. Adopt a healthier self image. And it came to be because, you know, I’m an actor, much like you. And I know you can relate. As all of us actors can relate to this being a highly visible industry, you know, I mean, an industry that where you live in highly visible spaces. And that can take its toll. It can really take its toll and it started taking its toll on me. Pretty early before I had done any film or television, it started taking its toll in grad school. Where I found myself all of a sudden after having grown up in Dayton, Ohio, which was a pretty mixed Blue City in a in an oasis friend. But it was a pretty diverse city and I went to an HBCU Spelman College. Whoo, and when I went to grad school, I found myself for the first time as the only woman of color in my class. In my department, in all three classes, I was the only one, and I was like, Ooh, well, this is different. And I’ll never forget one of the standout experiences that kind of started my somewhat problematic relationship with body image and self image was our movement professor took these 360 degree photos of our body, right? All the classmates of all of us these 360 photos.
Jessica St. Clair 42:16
Things that go on in school, I mean, is that gone? Okay.
Toccarra Cash 42:21
I have no idea, people have no idea. So she takes the photo, you know, full body photos of us from the front from the back, and profile. And she was doing this as part of what’s called the Alexander Technique for all of you, listeners, which is very, it’s very movement based. But she wanted to look at our posture right. Now, when she showed us these photos she showed us.
Jessica St. Clair 42:52
This is the most insane story I’ve ever heard.
Toccarra Cash 42:56
Like the horror bar.
Jessica St. Clair 42:59
I mean, you were honestly pledging a cert like this sounds like a sorority hazing technique.
Toccarra Cash 43:05
June Diane Raphael 43:06
Okay, this is an Alexander class. Okay, so she presents them.
Toccarra Cash 43:10
And let me tell you how we weren’t even ready for this. Like, you know, if you’re gonna tell me, if you’re telling me you’re gonna take 360 photos of me you know, I’m gonna wear my most full battery.
Jessica St. Clair 43:21
Right because I was usually rolling up to movement class at NYU undergrad, in like the dregs. That was the whole point secure rolling at about a giant hoodies. Okay, so we’re not prepared. We’re not prepared not in our Lulu lemons.
Toccarra Cash 43:37
Yeah, we are not honey, we are in the Walmart sweats.
Jessica St. Clair 43:39
It’s not sucked in.
Toccarra Cash 43:42
We are in the dressiest of sweats. Okay, the hair is a mess. It’s a it’s all it’s everything’s a mess. And she shows us these photos so upset. And I remember looking at them and just the horror that ran through my body, my mind my spirit. I was like, What is this? What people see when they look at me now? I didn’t know or understand at that point. That I was wading into the waters of body dysmorphia, right? I never really had any experience with that I was mostly surrounded I kind of was surrounded by women who you know has similar body types to Maya similar body shapes similar face shape similar, just similar. Not the same but similar. And I just looked so drastically different not only from my classmates, but for what the vision of myself I had in my head.
Jessica St. Clair 44:42
I understand. Yep, and I was quite or stand
Toccarra Cash 44:46
Oh my God, and so it sent me on this spiral kind of, you know, this really almost toxic relationship to not almost it was toxic relationship to diet and exercise. You know, I Um, that lasted for years, tons and tons of fasts and cleanses, you know, masquerading as spiritual development. But I knew what it was, I knew what I was, I knew why I was on the fast. You know, exercising, sometimes twice a day doing what I call it two days in the gym, going overboard if I felt like I ate too many calories. And then I was like, Oh, I started reading a little bit about what I was experiencing. And I said, I might be flirting with an eating disorder, I’m getting close, and that scared me. And so I started to just kind of immerse myself in a lot of, you know, books and articles about this thing to kind of wrap my head around. Why I’m feeling this way. And along the way, there after grad school, then Instagram comes along. And you know, before Instagram, it was pretty much just Facebook and Twitter and image wasn’t a huge thing. You know, you posted pictures with your friends, you post it, you know, there were, there certainly weren’t the three F’s I allow one of these are not going to be an F, but sounds like an F, so I call it the three F’s, there were no, there was no Photoshop, there were no filters. And there was no face when you just posted photos, as is. Then Instagram comes along.
Jessica St. Clair 46:17
And I feel like people posted so many on Facebook and MySpace, like a you know, like so many there were albums. So it’s like, no one’s really looking at them.
Toccarra Cash 46:30
Nobody was really, it was like it.
Jessica St. Clair 46:33
You were just sort of like, I don’t think anyone’s looking at these, and so many group shots.
Toccarra Cash 46:38
Yes, so because it was fun, it was about fun, about it truly was about connection, then fast forward through the years to now and you know, just to see the evolution from or the D. evolution, one could say, from connection to branding, to, a hyper visual, to content, rather than just posting, you know what I mean, it’s all a completely different ballgame now. And it’s because of the image, so because of what you’re presenting to the world. And I around 2014. I just I remember waking up one day and being like, I feel like I need to do something about this. I don’t know what it is yet. I didn’t I didn’t have the words for it. I didn’t have the structure for it, but I felt like I needed to do something about it. Because I was so passionate about it, and it wouldn’t leave me alone. It’s like the universe every day was like, so what are you gonna do about this girl? What you gonna do about it? Because you think about it all the time, and I was really starting to get concerned with the young women, the, you know, the high school and the college age girls, I was seeing in comment sections constantly talking about themselves in such disparaging ways or in comparison to what they were seeing. Right, and so I was like, oh my God, if what if I had social media when I was in college? Oh, how would I have coped? And then boom, it’s like the light bulb came on? Oh, my God, what if you could address this right where they are? while they’re in college? Because you know, sometimes people ask me why specifically college age and not like high school or middle school because of course, we hear all of the the news reports and everything about how it’s affecting high school and middle school, children’s mental health. But College is the first time think about it, that you are not under your parents guidance. You’re not under your parents authority. And you’re navigating stuff, for the most part alone until you find you know, your tribe school. And just how lonely and terrifying and confusing that all can be. And then you couple it with the fact that now you may be, you know, you feel like you have this independence. So all of the things that you’ve internalized in middle in high school. Now you feel like you have the autonomy to to do something about it right, now, I’m going to take this refund check and I’m going to go get a BBL but I can’t quite afford the license surgeon, so I’m going to go to the surgeon that my homegirl told me about, you know, in a basement in Queens or in the Dominican Republic, because it’s much cheaper, and I’m going to get this BBL. And there are girls who have literally died from making that decision, who have died. And this is not to shame anyone into not getting something such as a BBL, it’s a very personal decision. But it’s just to talk about the things that we are not discussing yes, girls have died. Because of this, it’s not a frivolous issue, we’re talking about self confidence, we’re talking about self esteem, we’re talking about the things that we were saying the quiet parts out loud, that’s what that’s the purpose of the image […]
Jessica St. Clair 49:53
I love that Toccarra thank you for sharing all of that. And here’s the thing even yes, there the reality of women dying to be a certain shape a certain size is so disturbing. But even if it doesn’t end, even if like, for most women, that’s not necessarily the eventuality, sometimes what I think about with image is just and Jessica and I have talked about this when we’ve discussed ozempic. And how I mean, you know, every white woman we knows. But like we’ve talked about.
Toccarra Cash 50:34
Why not just white girl.
Jessica St. Clair 50:36
I was gonna ask you, I was actually going to ask you about that. I’m like, I would love to know the statistics there anyway, but, but, uh, Mike, you know, I understand, and that’s when you said like, no shame, if you’re, if you want to elect to have a surgery or whatever, I understand why it can provide freedom, mental freedom. So it’s like, even if from from the constant conversation around the constant noise around how do I look?
Toccarra Cash 51:08
June Diane Raphael 51:08
And so even if like, yeah, maybe most women aren’t going to die from this, the fact that it’s occupying so much brain space, because we have other work to do here, right? You know, we and I will be honest, if I could really admit how much of my just energy and brain space.
Toccarra Cash 51:27
June Diane Raphael 51:27
Is used on my physical appearance. On the skin suit of it all.
Toccarra Cash 51:35
Jessica St. Clair 51:36
You know, yeah.
Toccarra Cash 51:38
It’s, it’s deeply shameful for me. And it’s shameful for many of us, it’s, and that’s the kind of you said the right word, that’s the presiding word is shame, where did we learn all of this shame? You know, where did this come from?
Jessica St. Clair 51:54
Well, and I wonder because so many wouldn’t when you call it that image monster in that monstrous moment you had. You know, I know for me that monster, I remember the moment because I similar, I’m five, nine and a half. I was always bigger, five, nine and a half when I was 10 okay, so I was always big, I felt big. I always struggled with being like a big woman, big shoulders big woman. I played basketball, I used to call me big man so like, I okay, so but I, again, because I played sports, I was always affirmed for my physicality. But I had that moment you describe it, I’m sure everyone listening to it knows it. When all of a sudden you see your body the way others do? And I remember in fifth grade, getting out of a pool at a pool party. And at that point, I hadn’t yet worried about being in a bathing suit, I’m a kid that was I was just wrong and physical, and I remember getting out of the pool. And a kid turned to me and said, June, how much do you weigh?
Toccarra Cash 52:58
Oh, my God.
June Diane Raphael 53:00
And it was that moment you described of looking at yourself and thinking? I’m not right.
Toccarra Cash 53:10
June Diane Raphael 53:10
I’m a question, it’s pivotal. So how do your workshops and what you’re facilitating? How do you start to interrupt that moment? Or come to terms with it? And what what are you doing in there?
Toccarra Cash 53:23
Yeah, well, the first thing that I always love to tell people is that, you know, we’re taking the conversation offline, because right now I feel like that you are, I already know, you know what I mean, when I say that, everything that we see and hear and read about it is always through the lens of social media, so or an article or something and so I want I wanted to take this experience, offline, get young woman in a room, right? Because also, we just haven’t had much connection lately coming out of the pandemic, it’s still kind of a touching connection is still the touch and go thing. You know, it’s like we’re learning how to connect again. And it’s just full transparency, I listened to your one of your most recent episodes, and I just loved the description that you said about women gathering around the fire. We got our hunches. I was like I’m literally yelled out, I said yes like, this is my way of gathering young women around the fire with beautiful with very grown women and sharing our experiences so that they don’t feel like they’re going through this in a vacuum, right? So they don’t feel alone, so that and that so they can help each other. You know what I mean? So they can, that girl who sits in class with them who they think, you know, is the cat’s meow. They don’t know that girl is going through her issues too, you know the man and so on, it’s about helping each other, feel free, feel whole, feel confident, feel beautiful in your own skin, no matter what social media, entertainment, the beauty industry, friends, peers, romantic partners, David Patrone, your movement Professor, what anybody is telling you. And and it’s fun. I also want everybody to know like, it’s fun, it’s not just, you know, this isn’t a lecture. It’s interactive, we, we play dope games, we there’s interactive activities that end up spring facilitated discussions, right? Well, there’s some writing exercises, I believe that artistry, heels, even if you are an economics major, a biology major, if your major has nothing to do with the arts whatsoever. I believe that everybody has an artistic side. And when you engage that, that is healing. So we use writing in the workshops, we use the power of trauma in the workshops, because I’m an actor, if you think we’re not going to do some acting.
Jessica St. Clair 56:08
Some on your feet improv.
Toccarra Cash 56:10
Oh, you know, Oh.
June Diane Raphael 56:14
Leave I know, I am proud […] on our character.
Toccarra Cash 56:18
Improv is poppin, and, you know, and also, for any young women who attended, like, I don’t want them to be nervous about that, either, because this is, we even do have a moment at the top of the workshop, you know, circle up to let you know, this is a safe space, this is the most non judgmental space that you will ever be in. So, you know, even when we’re doing these acting exercises, it’s fun, it’s to be goofy, it’s to be silly, it’s to talk about these things in a low stakes environment, so that you can get to the truth of it all, because the truth is invoked in the likeness, the truth is there.
Jessica St. Clair 56:58
Oh, I love that’s beautiful Toccarra and, you know, sometimes I sometimes I resent the, the sort of the language around like body positivity and like, just feel good about yourself, and, you know, and self care and self confidence. And just, and because what I always want to say is how, yep, how, yep, do you want me to unlearn 40 something years of images, imagery and, and thinness, and by the way, like, your image wants or focuses it is for women of color. And, you know, the the real American beauty standard is a white woman, if it is like white, blonde, you know, all of that. And so, then you have an an ideal or cultures putting up as an ideal representation of beauty that it’s like, well, women of color can’t even ever get to. Okay, right so white, or you know, including myself, we have a chance of trying to get there. The truth is, the standard exists because no one will ever reach it. They are so and that is how it controls us because you will never get there, it’s a losing game will never arrive. And that is how we continue to buy and purchase and participate in this, okay and but what I always say is like, tell me how, and that is what I find so powerful about your work, because it is a how it is a deconstruction it is a it’s like well, it’s a solution, you can’t just tell women and actually fuck you for just trying to tell women like be positive about your body, sir.
Toccarra Cash 59:01
How yes, what is the roadmap? So back to that? I actually I agree with you, I’ve always had a bit of a queasy feeling when I see the posts come up about body positivity. And it can it can sometimes take a turn into what’s called toxic positivity, which is a thing. And social media as well, oh my god, it’s rife with it, right.
Jessica St. Clair 59:24
I’d almost prefer toxic negativity to be I can sit with that more.
Toccarra Cash 59:31
It feels more tangible, right?
June Diane Raphael 59:32
Yes, I guess it’s just more authentic. I’m like, okay, that I get toxic positivity. I’m like, oh, barf.
Toccarra Cash 59:40
And that’s the word authentic. You just said like, it never comes, everything comes off as disingenuous about the pot body positivity movement to me. And that’s not to offend anybody who you know works in the body positivity spaces, your content deals with that, that’s not to offend you. It’s just to say, it feels disingenuous when you are putting pedaling it but you are not giving anyone any solutions as to how to combat this, how to tackle this, how to navigate this, right? We’re what are some tools? What are some tools? And what I can say is, while I’m not saying I have the magic bullet or the answer, in these workshops, I am providing some tools, some tools that young women can use tools that I have adopted, and that I still use on a daily basis on a weekly basis, that helped me heal, right, because this workshop, as much as the intention is to heal the young women who are in it. It also heals me, that may sound very selfish, but it does me in the process.
Jessica St. Clair 1:00:46
That’s really special.
Toccarra Cash 1:00:47
Thank you, thank you, and I just, I want them to come away from the workshop, having concrete things that they can do that they can point to that they can adopt to set them on a lifelong course of balancing this thing because like you said, it’s inescapable.
June Diane Raphael 1:01:05
Toccarra Cash 1:01:05
It’s it’s unavoidable, I mean, we all just, were still being bombarded with all of the weight loss commercials at like, we get.
Jessica St. Clair 1:01:12
Hard to even see because it’s so pervasive, smug it’s the, it’s like, can’t even identify it.
Toccarra Cash 1:01:20
I counted one day I was I was over the holidays, I was watching television, and I counted the amount of commercials that came on that basically were telling women. Yeah, how you are is wrong, let us fix you. There was it like back to back to back, I kid you not just four, back to back. And three of the four were about weight?
Jessica St. Clair 1:01:43
Absolutely, I mean, listen, I believe that the the fast sort of weight loss we’re seeing right now and the drugs that are in that are really helping so many people, so there’s reality to that, and they are you know, and I understand that in the mental health of people they’re helping as well. This is not a this is not about specific individual individual people choose to take it like I think that’s awesome and I I’ve seen it change lives and beautiful way, it’s you know, I’m all for that. I think there is however, it’s like we must interrogate why after like the me too movement and a massive reckoning that we are now seeing women get smaller and smaller and smaller. That is a cultural question we must ask for our young girls, we have we have to.
Toccarra Cash 1:02:35
We do, we have to address it, we have to.
Jessica St. Clair 1:02:40
Toccarra, I am going to we could talk about this forever. I want to ask you while I still have you before you go. If any of our listeners have organizations that are part of schools that are a part of how do they find you? How do they reach out to book an image monster workshop? What’s the best way to follow your work?
Toccarra Cash 1:02:59
Yes, so you can email me which is right now the absolute best way to book a workshop at Toccarra Cash and that spelled T O C C A R R A C A S H just like money at the image monster.com Our website is under construction, but you can also find me on the place I hate the most social media. At the image monster I’m on Instagram at the image monster and I consider DMS a form of communication. So if you want to reach me that way, feel free I will always respond. And just stay tuned to that Instagram because while it’s been a little inactive over the last year, it’s going to start getting very active. So you know it’ll, it is very exciting. So that will be a certified way to get in contact with me but also the email address as well.
Jessica St. Clair 1:03:57
Perfect, and we’ll put that all in the show notes and thank you so much for joining us Toccarra along with me the whole areas goddamn actress and boy did we have some fun together on that show. And a really brilliant artist. I’m so grateful for this work that you’re doing and thank you for doing it and spending your time giving back and I know it’s healing for you too, but it’s really it’s really beautiful where you’re doing and I’m so happy I got to share it.
Toccarra Cash 1:04:27
Thank you it means the world to me that you wanted to have me on to share this. It really means a lot, so thank you. Thank you so much.
June Diane Raphael 1:04:36
Deep Divers, we’ll see you next week.
Jessica St. Clair 1:05:17
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The DEEP DIVE is produced by Lemonada media Jessica St. Clair and June Diane Raphael. Our producers Ana Cecilia, our associate producer is Dani Matias and ours supervising producer is Jamela Zarha Williams our engineer is Johnny Vince Evans. Additional Lemonada support from Steve Nelson, Stephanie Wittels Wachs and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Special thanks to Anne Geddes for a cover art and Lennon Parham. For her sweet sweet vocals. The best way to support us is to rate and review. Follow The Deep Dive wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon music with your Prime membership.