America’s Sweetheart or Media Mogul? (with Katie Couric)

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When Katie Couric was leaving CBS News as the first solo female anchor of a nightly news broadcast on a major network, she read a handwritten note from a former colleague that informed her next choice. Sam asks Katie about that moment and other big ones, like interviewing Sarah Palin at a pivotal moment in the 2008 presidential election and building her own media company. Katie talks about why she waited to have kids, whether her moniker of “America’s Sweetheart” holds true, and which stories she finds most intriguing (and terrifying) today.

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Katie Couric, Samantha Bee

Samantha Bee  00:52

This is choice words. I’m Smith debate and this week, I am joined by the one and only Katie Couric. I love her mind. I love her Jawad Aviv, and I love hearing her talk about some of the biggest choices that she’s made in her personal and professional life and how they intersect because that is what life is a series of choices. So enjoy. Get out there and make some good choices. Hi, Katie.

Katie Couric  05:01


Samantha Bee  05:02

I’m so happy to see your face. I know like our listeners are not seeing your face. But I’m seeing your face. And I’m very delighted to see.

Katie Couric  05:09

Well, I’m glad you’re delighted because I’m looking pretty scary right now I have no makeup on. And I’m definitely not ready for primetime. But I’m so happy to see you too, because we had so much fun doing a few things together. I interviewed you when I was at yahoo, yahoo, with an exclamation point. And then I did a couple of little things for your show. Remember, I think, did I carry you piggyback across this?

Samantha Bee  05:35

I was gonna say that because I was remembering. Because one of the reasons well, one of the reasons, one of a million reasons that I wanted to talk to you was like, I just think you’re so fun and zesty. And truly, you’re such a weirdo in the best possible way. Thank you. And I mean, because I remember, we had this crazy idea for for listeners who aren’t familiar with this segment. I feel like it was like celebrating the end of the we had intended to do a piece that was celebrating the end of the 2016 election. Prior to like, knowing what the result was, right? We were shooting a piece about how we were all going to celebrate that the news cycle was over. And we came to your studio at Yahoo. And we were like, what if I jumped on your back? And you were like, yes.

Katie Couric  06:25

Yes, please. Yes, please.

Samantha Bee  06:27

And you’re wearing really high heeled shoes. Yeah, we’re really professionally made up looking beautiful. And then a skirt. And I jumped on your back and rode you around your own studio.

Katie Couric  06:38

I know. That was a fun video I can I knew it had something to do with 2016. But I couldn’t quite remember. But I miss doing those little skits with you. And are you missing your show? Are you enjoying not doing it? How are you feeling?

Samantha Bee  06:53

You know, I feel guilty by about how much I’m enjoying not doing it. I certainly mourned it. And I was weird about it. You know, you have these periods where everything is topsy turvy. And you’re like, who am I? What do I do now? I wake up in the morning, where do I go? Who do I talk to? But actually, I think I’m kind of healthier? And quite happy to not? I don’t know, very happy to step back. Actually.

Katie Couric  07:20

Yeah, I know what you mean, though, because I think so much of our identity is wrapped up in our jobs and then but it also gives you so much structure like you have a team you go up someplace every single day gives a certain cadence to your life that I think also kids skip to your life like you have dinner they do your their homework, you they go to bed, you get them up in the morning. And I went through some of that same sort of who am I why am I here? Admiral Stockdale moments after I kind of started doing my own thing, and we built our own media company. But to be not sort of not have that kind of rhythm in your life is a little bit challenging. I think psychologically.

Samantha Bee  08:06

It is challenging psychologically, and it takes a minute, you have to give yourself permission to feel all of the emotions, because yeah, the variables are a lot. And I among the myriad reasons that I wanted to talk to you, I, you know, the podcast is kind of it’s about choice and the choices that we make in life. And I recently read your autobiography. You know, you really You’re so honest, the book is just so it was it’s pretty raw. And it really lays out you have just come to so many crossroads in your life. And so I was so curious to talk to you about choices that you’ve made choices that stand out to you. And then just before this interview, I was reminded of a quote from your book. Can I read your book back to you? Sure. So there’s this moment, it’s, you know, it’s a big section of the book when you are transitioning from CBS News, kind of trying to figure out what the next steps were, and considering launching into a project with Jeff Zucker. And then NBC came calling again that today’s show came back to you and they were like, What about coming back home, and you pulled out like a card or someone had written on a card, an ex producer, someone from the Today Show in the past had written, you’re like this, these are big choices. These are big, like, it’s scary to jump into the fray. And someone had written on a card. A boat is always safe in the harbor. But that is not what boats are for. And it informed your decision. Do you remember that?

Katie Couric  09:45

Oh, yeah, of course I remember who gave it to me for today’s show. And you know, it’s much easier when you’re looking ahead, to kind of say what the hell All right. And then when you’re looking back, it’s sometimes harder to say what the hell? Right?

Samantha Bee  10:10

But yeah, yeah, I guess if you had to isolate a choice that you’ve made in your life that had the biggest impact on your life, do you think it is a professional choice or a personal one.

Katie Couric  10:23

I always have a hard time sort of quantifying or weighing or giving, you know, priority to some things over another. I mean, I do think that I have made a series of choices in my life. I mean, I think the choice of who you’re going to marry obviously, has a huge impact. And I think, my first husband, Jay, who, as you know, passed away from colon cancer in 1998, when he was 42. I mean, choosing to marry somebody who was completely supportive of my career, who was willing to have a long distance marriage, for a number for a couple of years, even though we had a little baby. That was a huge choice, right? I think about my choice to not get married until I was 30. And to not settle down. So I would have mobility and flexibility was a really, it was a conscious decision and a really important choice for me, you know, as I traveled and worked at different local stations around the country, but you know, I mean, the fact of the matter is, you never know, what you would have been greeted with. If you had made a different decision, right, you can only theorize. And there are no guarantees in life. I think we both, you know, understand that. So sometimes when you’re evaluating something that you’ve done, it’s you just don’t have a full understanding of what would have happened, had you not? Right, so I think I’m somewhat fatalistic about it, you know, I did it. And there’s no looking back. And I learned a lot, and I grew, and I probably made it easier for other people who followed in my footsteps. And, you know, it’s kind of is what it is. And I think that’s sort of how you have to deal with choices, regardless of the result.

Samantha Bee  12:31

And like, there were so many huge moments that you achieved at CBS?

Katie Couric  12:36

Yeah, like for every time I think, god damn, why did I do that? I think, Well, God, damn, I interviewed Sarah Palin. And it had a big impact on that election. Yes, he, you know, I did some pieces I’m really proud of or I was able to bring forth stories that might not have been done, had there not been a woman in that position. Right. You know, so ultimately, I do think I’m glad I, went. But anyway, how about you? What do you think is the biggest choice you made?

Samantha Bee  13:10

I think there are a number I have talked about it on the show already, I did make a had a really wild, actually, going back to my teenage years, was a very wild teenager who came to a real fork in the road at about 16. And chose just kind of chose the correct fork out of nowhere. And it could have gone a really, it could have really gone a different way. And but I appreciate talking about your choice of partner because I chose a good partner in life to actually like.

Katie Couric  13:44

Make such a difference. I mean, it it. I mean, it’s everything. If you have a family and you want to, you know, be in a loving home or create an environment where you do have support. And I think I’m older than you are. And I think I kind of came of age when women started really in in full force entering the job market. And I think that a lot of couples were navigating this and I talked about it in my book, you know, today, it’s not that unusual for women, for a woman to make more than her husband. But back then it was a it was actually a relatively new phenomenon. Yes, it could be quite destabilizing and a relationship in terms of the power dynamics.

Samantha Bee  14:37

But I actually think and I don’t know, I think it can still be a really destabilizing force in relationship. I think it’s something we don’t really this is a kind of a kind of a side topic, but I think that being the breadwinner in our relationship is a really is a unique place to be. And it’s actually not discussed enough. I think it’s are a very difficult for a lot of couples even, you know, I’m not even talking about the gender dynamics of it, I just I think it can be, it can be really loaded, it can be really heavy to be that person. You feel the way you feel the weight of things in a different way. And then your partner feels the weight of their role.

Katie Couric  15:22

And it manifests itself I think in very subtle but important ways. I think part of it too, probably stems from the fact that domestic labor, any kind of unpaid labor in our culture is undervalued. Yes. And I think that there’s a lot of fraught stuff in that as well.

Samantha Bee  15:48

I think there’s a lot of what I’m saying is I feel that there’s another podcast in the realm. Yeah, pitching myself another podcast. But I do think that the talking about the dynamics of it is something that most partnerships experience in some form. Yeah. And I think it’s really interesting. And I think it’s really painful to talk about sometimes. And like, I think so to really scratches at some serious scabs.

Katie Couric  16:16

And ego issues, so ashamed sort of also xpect societal expectations. And I think, for me, at least, you know, I’m 66. And I think many of the men, my contemporaries did not grow up with working mothers. Right. So I think culturally, they were conditioned to see very specific roles for for men and women and sort of traditional cisgender heterosexual couples, right. And I think the way you were raised and the way you your attitudes were shaped at those things are really hard to shake. Right. And it’s just interesting, but I still think there’s a lot of residual conditioning that’s still around as, as we’re sort of making a transition to women working more, and then there’s the whole Trad wife’s thing. Oh, I noticed that.

Samantha Bee  17:14

I don’t know, but all I will, okay. I mean, I do know what it is, but I, I will say this, like I’ve been working since I had kids, I’ve been working working very consistently, and I’m always I thought I was doing a really good job of being, you know, like a strong example of what a woman can do. Like, watch me go girls, and then my 12 year old, I asked her what she wanted to be in life and she was like, I’d really, really want to be a Range Rover mom. And I was like, What is? What are you talking about? I’m like, what made me What job do you want to do? What do you want to be in life? She was like, Yeah, I want to get up. I’m gonna take my kids to school Park, my white Range Rover, do an exercise class, get a massage club for lunch. It’s like, Wait a minute. Really? That’s like, hold on, you don’t know a single right. Where are you learning this? So clearly? Soleri I know. I know. I’m doing a bad job. In however you want to say it. I know that I’m doing a bad job. Okay, we’ll be right back with Katie Couric after this.

Samantha Bee  22:02

Okay, so writing your book was controversial. It hit people in a whole lot of different ways. Because I think you were so honest. And I think people say that they want honesty, but they sometimes don’t actually want it.

Katie Couric  22:15

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, I think when you’re a public figure, and I’m sure that you’ve experienced this, people, sometimes cherry pick stuff and then twist it or they’ll misquote you. We’ll talk about things completely out of context without any kind of background. And I think they did that in Prince Harry’s books fair. And I think I experienced that in some ways to where things were kind of taken and, you know, one sentence out of a paragraph, right. And I’m sure if when you read the book, you probably saw that I did. And I think people were looking for clickbait and controversy and maybe ways in which my book Aha, see, she’s not America’s sweetheart. She’s not that nice, whatever. And I’m not, I mean, nobody is right. But so as a result, I think that perhaps my honesty played against type or the way I had been sort of typecast throughout my career, although I don’t really think I have been, I think, maybe by some people, but I think people understood that I was intelligent, and that I wasn’t just some perky, you know, morning show, anchor, or host or whatever.

Samantha Bee  23:35

Although I will say that I don’t think that you get enough credit for being a journalist. I don’t get I don’t do you feel that?

Katie Couric  23:42

Sometimes? I mean, I think that the skills and the temperament and the personality required to be a successful morning show anchor. I think that some of the things that you need to do well like to have a warm personality to be upbeat to be funny to be reactive. I think those sometimes overshadow the times that you are a hard hitting journalist. And I think it’s it’s still very hard for people to see women and men as multi dimensional beings. And so I sometimes feel that way. On the other hand, I have been lauded for things like my Sarah Palin interview, and I think that I had to work hard to convince people that I was smart, just because I think there was still very deep seated sexism in the culture, I still think there is and so I did have to work quite hard to say, you know, there’s a lot to me and not just somebody who has fun or flies across the plaza and a Peter Pan out. You know,

Samantha Bee  24:55

I loved the play by play of the Sarah Palin interview was so good heard it really resonated with me because it’s so descriptive of just like all the prep that is involved.

Katie Couric  25:08

Yeah, it was, it was a very intense time. And I think I really, truly didn’t know how it would play. Because I thought there was a good chance people would blame the messenger. And I, I wasn’t sure. And very early on, it was heartening to see a lot of Republicans say that they thought it was a fair interview. And it wasn’t until she kind of came out and said, you know, that, that I had asked so many gotcha questions, which I don’t think was true, that sort of the tide started to turn against me a bit. But I thought it was, at the time a really important interview. And I’ve been asked many times, what if that interview had been done today? You know, because this is in 2008. Yeah. And it was before the media had been quite as bifurcated as it as it is today. You know, would people just ignore her less than informed answers? Right? They discount the interview, because I was perceived as being more progressive, you know, who knows? Or would you have even had access to her.

Samantha Bee  26:29

You know, would you have even been granted the interview? In the first place? Right? I mean, it’s hard to tell. But sometimes when you’re in an interview, and you’re like, she is really rambling about Putin, what in the world? Is she saying? Do you feel like that quickening and you’re, I feel it. When I’ve interviewed lots of people in the past, you just feel like that quickening in your heart. And you’re like, Okay, please keep talking.

Katie Couric  26:53

I mean, I did feel bad for her, because I felt like, Oh, she’s really floundering. And these questions were hard. You know, I thought, I’m not sure I could answer these questions. I mean, they were very specific public policy questions that I thought, Gosh, this is this is a challenging question, but somebody who has a heartbeat away from the presidency should be able to answer it or right, articulate their position.

Samantha Bee  27:23

And that is why I did not feel bad for her. I was supposed to be able to answer those questions.

Katie Couric  27:28

Well, what Yeah, but I think just on a human level, right. You know, you just felt like some, I think Time Magazine said it was like, watching a seventh grader fail her oral exam, but that was an insult to seventh graders and oral exam. And, you know, and so I, you know, I think, if you have any sort of humanity, you just feel like this, she’s struggling. And this is this is, this is somewhat painful to watch. And then it made me feel like John McCain, it was such a cynical choice, because she clearly was not ready to be put in in this position. And then that made me feel angry at the whole campaign. Right?

Samantha Bee  28:12

Right. It definitely was watching somebody live their nightmare of being naked on a stage in front of an auditorium.

Katie Couric  28:18

I mean, how many nightmares have you had like that you’re not prepared for a test? Or that you didn’t drop a class in college? And now you have the final exam, and you’re just totally screwed? I mean, I still have those dreams.

Samantha Bee  28:31

I do, too. Is it liberating in life when you realize that not everyone on Earth needs to like you? Yeah, like, Tell me about that. I feel that in my own life, what does that? Where did you? How did you grapple with that? How does that sit in you?

Katie Couric  28:50

I mean, I think I’m the youngest of four kids. I think most women are people pleasers. Because I think when we’re difficult I was just reading a profile of Gina Davis and all the work she’s done on inequality in Hollywood and, and the lack of representation, not only with gender, but with age, you know, women of a certain age, or people of a certain age or the LGBT Q plus community and, and obviously, racial representation. And I was just thinking that it’s, it’s very hard for still, for women to to be direct and to have strong opinions and to argue and how the perception of women who stand up for themselves or treat people as equals that they are still dogged by that, you know, they’re they’re bitchy or they’re demanding or they’re divas, they’re prima donnas. All these things that women in particular are saddled with that men simply are not because of have, you know societal norms? And you know, I think because I was always you know, I do have a super outgoing personality. I hate the word perky because it’s so diminishing and, but, and I love.

Samantha Bee  30:18

More spicy, I think you’re spicy.

Katie Couric  30:21

prices get right definitely edgier than perky you know perky is pleasing, but anyway, but to answer your question, I think that it is liberating I mean not everybody’s gonna like you and that’s okay and I remember thinking not why should everyone like you when you don’t like everyone?

Samantha Bee  30:44

Right? That’s a good point. That’s a very.

Katie Couric  30:48

Good point. Like everyone why should everyone like you so I guess you know at this point in my life, I’m fine with it. Having said that when people say critical things or insulting things or make comments about me or especially if they’re based on absolutely nothing. It bugs me it still bugs me. But I appreciate the fact that you had a pretty formed individual at this point in my life and and I’m okay if I’m not your cup of tea, that’s fine. Hold that thought more with Katie Couric after one more break.

Samantha Bee  31:55

What are the stories that today or maintaining your gaze? Like what are the things that you feel most passionately about?

Katie Couric  34:01

I mean, I am very interested in technology and whether the ethics are following too far behind the advancements. You know, obviously I’m very interested in artificial intelligence and happen for a while now. I’m very interested in the impact of social media as Vivek Murthy, the surgeon general recently talked about I’m interested in income inequality. I’m interested in polarization and is there any way for us to talk to one another. I’m interested, obviously very interested in science and medicine, and what’s happening in whether it’s neurodegenerative diseases or cancer, obviously something that I’m passionate about health, wellness, longevity, I’m here Are you interested in generational differences? I just interviewed someone named Gene 20, who wrote I Gen. And she just came out with another book called generations about how different the generations are. I’m very interested in Gen Z, and she calls the generation below Gen Z polars. I don’t know if that’s fascinating. I think it’s for both polarization and climate change. I’m not sure if that’s going to ultimately be the moniker for that, that age group. But I’m really interested in how quickly the world is changing. And I’m very interested and worried about the future, I’m very interested in changing demographics, you know, by 2044, whites will be in the minority and the United States. And I think that has resulted in a lot of a lot of the stress and tension we have in our culture. I’m interested in the extremes on both sides. I’m very interested in what’s going on with transgender people. I did a documentary about that, and 2016 called gender revolution. And I’m very interested in just having discussions about some of the things and not being afraid that you’re gonna say the wrong thing. Right.

Samantha Bee  36:19

Does that is that the freedom that you have, now that you with Katie Couric media?

Katie Couric  36:23

I do, but I still worry, you know, people have such strong opinions. And all these conversations seem so black and white, right, that kind of treading into this middle area where, well, maybe, or I can see your point of view, or? I’m not sure it’s very difficult. It’s just so much easier to dig in your heels and say, This is what I think and you’re wrong. Right. And, you know, I don’t want to hear anything you have to say.

Samantha Bee  36:56

I definitely do think that AI is going to end the world.

Katie Couric  37:03

I’m afraid to hear about that, too. And everyone says it’s going to be adapted at such a breakneck speed that, you know, a year from now, it’s, it is quite terrifying. And I think, again, Sam, that’s an example of has the technology outpaced the ethics of said technology?

Samantha Bee  37:25

I don’t even think that’s in question, actually, I think yeah, has definitely outpaced ethics. And I definitely think that all of our Breville toasters are going to attain sentient, like the capability to be sentient, they’re gonna communicate with each other and we’re all gonna go in a great big, toaster based accident, like, like, it’s gonna be a horrible accident.

Katie Couric  37:53

It is. So sci fi, isn’t it? It’s not fun anymore.

Samantha Bee  38:02

It’s not going to be glorious. It’s not going to be a glorious war, like in Terminator, and Skynet. It’s going to be something much more mundane. Your George Foreman grill is going to kill you kill you. Do we still have George Foreman grills? I don’t. I don’t. I don’t have one. What am I saying? It’s the panini press. Folks. It’s the panini press. There’s so much discussion. Now. I just want to go back to the office for one sec about making offices more friendly to young women working moms. But then I read an article about older women going through menopause and offices in the UK adapting to menopausal women. Could you have imagined this?

Katie Couric  38:55

Well, what’s awesome is that there’s a real movement. In fact, Susan Dominus, I don’t know if you read her New York Times Magazine cover story because I interviewed her for my podcast.

Samantha Bee  39:07

I know, I listened to it. And yeah, worse. They read the article. It was like the moment that it launched. I think probably 20 People sent it immediately to my inbox the second that it hit.

Katie Couric  39:20

Isn’t a great like that. Yeah, that got so much attention that people are talking about this. I think that people are talking about a gene that, you know, I’m hoping the lens is widening. And we can have these conversations. I was just, you know, I was sort of inspired to try to develop a documentary series on women and the medical establishment in the healthcare system and how and so many ways how women have been screwed through the years and continue to be sort of treated as second class citizens.

Samantha Bee  39:57

Yes, how they didn’t study how medications affect our bodies until the 1990s.

Katie Couric  40:03

Right. And we weren’t in clinical trials because our hormones ironically, were going to impact the results of those clinical trials. So one of the things that I also think people need to talk about is postpartum depression. Oh, yes. And I think that’s such a taboo topic and you know, postpartum psychosis, which we’ve seen have a terrible impact. And I think that we need to address a lot of these issues. I’m happy that mental health is become less verboten a topic and people are talking about depression and anxiety and feeling much freer. I think young people are not embarrassed that they’re in therapy. They’re proud of it, and they talk about it freely. But back in the day, you know, that just wasn’t something you discussed with anyone.

Samantha Bee  41:04

I think what we’re pitching together is a series of ABC after school specials, just with a more advanced selection of topics, menopause, postpartum psychosis, fibroids, for one thing.

Katie Couric  41:19

I had those. I wanted the doctor to save mine, because some of them apparently.

Samantha Bee  41:29

Oh, my God. Well, I just had a uterine polyp removed. So scary. You know what, in the spirit of oversharing, and I feel like it was before all my friends were asking me about it. And I was like, I think it was so big. It just took on its own wife. I think they took it out, and they put it in the forest. And it scuttled off, like one of those crab things..

Katie Couric  42:01

Usually, they compare it to a fruit.

Samantha Bee  42:05

I guess a lemon, maybe a large lime. But it seemed to have a personality because my personality changed after nine and get to see it. I didn’t get well it lives freely now. It just it’s just roaming around in somewhere and it’s reproducing asexually. It’s fine. Nobody should worry. You know, they say

Katie Couric  42:30

I wanted to talk to you about this rash.

Samantha Bee  42:32

I have. You know, I’m an amateur doctor. I’m very good at diagnosing others. You can’t even talk about my breast cancer, for crying out loud. We’ve got well then that would send us down the road of mammogram machines, and why they’re amazing and torture. Right and why we can’t have a nice one that feels good to us.

Katie Couric  42:56

I know why don’t we invent that? Why don’t we Why don’t we make that our next act after the after school specials.

Samantha Bee  43:05

You are a goddamn delight.

Katie Couric  43:08

Well, thank you right back at your sister. Boy,

Samantha Bee  43:11

you’re so upfront about just the totality of your life and you are zesty, not perky.

Katie Couric  43:17

Thank you. So fun to see you. I’d love to see you on real life in person and 3d

Samantha Bee  43:23

meet you. I’d love to get hop on your back again. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Katie Couric  43:28

Okay, anyway, Alright, have a nice day.

Samantha Bee  43:35

That was Katie Couric and I had no choice but to Google. One thing that she said during the interview. Do fibroids really sometimes have hair and teeth? Well, technically, no. What does have Heron teeth is called a teratoma. very terrifying. Anyway, if you have one of those, I don’t know I guess make a dental appointment for their tiny tiny teeth. And don’t forget to floss. Thank you so much Katie for coming on. And good news. There’s more choice words with laminata Premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content like a rapid fire round of trivia questions based off my interview with Rosie O’Donnell. Subscribe now in Apple podcasts.


Thank you for listening to Choice Words which was created by and is hosted by me. We’re a production of Lemonada Media, Kathyrn Barnes, […] and Kryssy Pease produce our show. Our mix is by James Barber. Steve Nelson is the vice president of weekly content. Jessica Cordova Kramer, Stephanie Wittles Wachs and I are executive producers. Our theme was composed by […] with help from Johnny Vince Evans . Special thanks to Kristen Everman, Claire Jones, Ivan Kuraev and Rachel Neil. You can find me at @Iamsambee on Twitter and at @realsambee on Instagram. Follow Choice Words wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon music with your Prime membership.

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