Everybody Vapes

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Description

When Sergio started vaping, it didn’t seem like a big deal. After all, he was surrounded by people vaping and drinking at school. But lately, this casual habit feels a lot like an addiction, and he’s not sure how to stop. This week, Sergio and Nzinga talk about what makes vaping so addictive, what to do when you feel like a party pooper, and how to stop spending the equivalent of 6 Chipotle Burrito Bowls a week on cartridges.

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Transcript

SPEAKERS

Dr. Nzinga Harrison, Sergio, Claire Jones

Dr. Nzinga Harrison  00:03

All righty it’s Monday y’all so you know what time that is time for IN RECOVERY. This is Dr. Nzinga Harrison, and I’m your host. This show is about all things addiction, not just drugs and alcohol. Although, today we will be talking about nicotine and vaping. But other things you might not think about exercise, work, relationships, and it’s a question and answer show. So, please send us in your questions, you can send them to us by calling 8334-LEMONADA, that’s 833-453-6662 and leave us a voicemail, or you can fill out our contact form at bit.ly/inrecoveryquestions. And then I’m the expert that’s on the hook for answering your questions. So I’m a physician, psychiatrist, addiction medicine expert, I have dedicated my life to reducing stigma and trying to change the way we see and treat people who are affected by addiction. I co-founded and I am Chief Medical Officer at Eleanor Health, where we do exactly that. And I am like I said, host of IN RECOVERY Podcast, where we do exactly that.

Claire Jones

Okay, so like I mentioned, we are going to talk about vaping this week. We got a voicemail from a listener named Sergio. And it prompted us to call him up to talk a little bit more about his story. So let’s listen to his voicemail.

Sergio

Hi, Dr. Nzinga. Hi, Claire. My name is Sergio. And my context from the question just comes from being a college student, I guess. So I go to college in Davis, California. The main vice of choice is vaping. nicotine addiction via vaping. What is your experience, if any having to deal with people addicted to nicotine in vaping form? have you dealt with anybody my age kind of dealing with nicotine addiction in that form? Okay, hope to talk to you soon. Bye, bye.

Claire Jones  02:07

Okay, without further ado, let’s get to our conversation with Sergio.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison

Sergio, thank you so much for coming on with us. Pleasure to see your face.

Sergio

Yes. Thank you for having me, likewise.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison

So we are talking today about vaping which is super timely. On the one hand, I think a lot of parents and health professionals are super concerned about vaping just like going off the charts. And at the same time, it seems like a lot of younger people are like vaping is not a big deal. So, why don’t you just start me out and let me know why you call it into in recovery about vaping help us get to know you and then put vaping in context of Sergio.

Sergio 

The reason I called is because after of course many years of vaping I came to the realization that was like wow, everybody does this. This is supposed to be the thing that is getting people off of nicotine and in turn is addicted a whole generation to nicotine. Everybody vapes in the college atmosphere. Not only has it gotten a generation addicted to nicotine, but I know for myself that has opened doors into then smoking cigarettes, it has opened doors into then vaping in the context of like marijuana, dab pens, like okay, well if the thing that is supposed to be getting people off of nicotine is in turn addicted to nicotine, how do we actually handle getting off of nicotine? You know what, what becomes the solution then?

Dr. Nzinga Harrison

So tell me, you start off by saying you’re 21 When did you start vaping?

Sergio

you know, everything is normalized in college, drinking excessively. partying, skipping class. You know, once I got to college that I had picked up the habit. It’s actually a funny story. I didn’t do it on my own because, you know, vaping as a habit is pretty expensive. At the time, JUUL was the big thing. So buying a JUUL, I think it’s like, I don’t know, like $50-$60 for a starter pack or something like that.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison  04:16

That’s crazy for college kid.

Sergio

Right! Yeah, that is six chipotle bowls right there.

Claire Jones 

I was just gonna say we used to do the same thing in college, like how many chipotle burritos is that? Oh, that’s six chipotle burritos.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison 

It’s an important consideration.

Claire Jones 

Also, I’m going to just jump in really fast. For those of you who don’t know, JUUL is an e-cigarette company. A JUUL is the e-cigarette, a pod is a little cartridge that is full of liquid and you buy multiple pods to refill when you run out of it. And they come in different flavors and the pot is itself what contains the nicotine. Okay, Sergio, keep going.

Sergio 

Right, I was on my way home from a party I think one night and I go to Get out of the Uber and I look around me just to make sure I picked up everything. And there was somebody had left behind a JUUL and so I was like, Oh, well, you know, let me just take it. If anything I could, I don’t know, give it to a friend and I don’t know, you know, just kind of stares at you. And it’s like, oh, why not? Let’s just try it. And so I got rid of the old pod that obviously the random person had put their mouth on, and then went and had one of my roommates buy me a pack of pods, and then that’s where it all started.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison 

As we often find on this show, that is probably not where it all started. All the way back, right? So bio psycho-social-cultural-political, because we at least know like you said, college normalizes everything we at least know it started upstream from that. When you’re like, oh, man, I would buy a jewel, but it would cost me six chipotle labels, right? And then you’re like, Oh, snap, the universe just brought me a free JUUL.

Sergio 

Exactly!

Dr. Nzinga Harrison  06:00

So it started up even upstream from that socially. Do you think it started upstream from that biologically or psychologically for you? Based on your family and your life experiences?

Sergio 

Definitely went out when I was growing up nicotine. And, you know, when I was a kid, JUUL and vapes weren’t really around, but like, as far as cigarette goes, we were definitely that family that would walk by somebody smoking a cigarette, and like audibly cough in front of them to like, make them you know, what I mean, is like walking on the street by somebody smoking a cigarette, and you have this like, six year old kid being like, like dying. So my mom, I guess, did a good job. And that sense of being like, yeah, cigarettes are bad. Once you get to college, and a culture of like, rebellion is cool. Then it was like, Oh, I’m doing the bad thing. And that’s kind of cool.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison 

Yeah, I think that is a hugely important point that you’re making. So you may have heard me mention my two kids on the show, Zaire, and Nasir, they’re 13 and 15. And so my kids also, were the six-year old’s that will walk by and like audibly cough, if somebody was talking to us, like guys place plays. But it’s because we start talking to them early, about addiction of all sorts, because our family history is stacked with people with addiction. And so I’m like, your DNA is stacked, you’re at increased risk, blah, blah, blah. Smoking is one of those, this is the thing. But part of the nuance, you try to put on that conversation, what you’re saying Sergio is not you can never do it, it will kill you. It’s bad ever, ever. Because that actually developed some interest in like, could it really be? And then you get into that college culture? Like you said, we’re rebellion, is it? And you want to have prepared your young folks to actually be able to do some greyest thinking around it? Like what is the level of risk? What is my level of risk as it relates to this? Do I want to make this decision so that you don’t just get unwittingly caught up in that current of rebellion? You like get to choose? Like, this is an amount of rebellion that still could be safe for me type of thing.

Sergio  08:11

Right, right. And that’s definitely I think, how it was for me, it was never like, let’s sit down and have a conversation about why cigarettes are bad. Or let’s sit down. And, you know, let me tell you about your uncle who was smoking cigarettes. And now look at him type of thing. It was like, we don’t do that. We just don’t do that. That’s the bad. And I’m the same as your sons. I have addiction on both sides of my family, whether it be alcohol, nicotine, drugs, I mean, all of it. So yeah, definitely, it probably would have helped if I were, you know, had some type of preface going into college of this is why this is bad and whatnot.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison 

We have heard so far from you a biological risk. So you have addiction throughout your family, even if it was a different drug addiction all run through the same pathway in the brain have the similar underlying biology. So like, I’m telling my kids, yes, we have family members who are severely addicted to cocaine. That also makes you have to think twice about vaping. So your friend might be able to find a JUUL in the cab and smoke it and be fine. You might find a JUUL in the cab, and now all of a sudden, you’re replacing your chipotle bowls.

Sergio 

Exactly.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison 

Okay, so you smoked the first time. Tell us what it was like and what did it turn into for you?

Sergio 

Well, it’s definitely was the head rush. That’s what the hype of nicotine is, right? You get that head rush for like a couple seconds. And that’s the best part of it right? Then you’re back to normal within, you know, 10 seconds.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison 

And that makes it crazy addictive.

Sergio 

Exactly.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison 

The faster on the faster off is literally two of the biggest factors that define the addictive risk of a substance.

Sergio 

After that it was constantly chasing that feeling right? How can I get that feeling?  Oh well, my tolerance is a little higher. So now I have to smoke more of it at any given time to feel that head high. You know, I could go through one pod and a week and a half, two weeks, and then it ended up getting all the way to I could go through a JUUL pod in a day or two days. The other scary part is that it goes hand in hand with alcohol usage, because as soon as I would start drinking, the head rush is more available, you feel the effects even more so. So then it becomes Okay, well, now let me get drunk because I want to feel the effects of my jewel. Yeah. And so that’s really scary that those two would go hand in hand, because then I’m just leading myself down the path of alcohol usage and addiction to that.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison  10:45

Yeah, exactly. And so, you know, we always talk about the diagnostic criteria for substance use disorder. And you’re describing it right, like, we think of these three states cycle of addiction, which is intoxication, that’s that head rush, and then withdraw. That’s when nothing is there. And then you start craving, which then drives you to go back for that next tip for that next head rush, and then at the alcohol in there to make that feeling be more intense. When did the word addiction pop into your head as related to your own use of the vaping?

Sergio 

Oh, I was absolutely that person who said, Oh, I can stop whenever I want. I could stop I was I was never addicted. I was never addicted. I could stop whenever I want. And I would, I would use the fact that I didn’t have money to pay for pods. So I had to stop for a couple weeks to be like, yeah, I stopped on my own for two weeks. So I could stop when I want, when in reality, it was not stopping around. I just couldn’t pay for the addiction anymore. It wasn’t until really, this year that I kind of got serious about looking inward and saying, you know, this is something that I couldn’t put down if I wanted to. And every time I’ve tried it, because there have been times that I have tried and said okay, I’m gonna not vape anymore. And that for me always goes out the window, once alcohol gets involved. As soon as you know, I start, have a drink, have a couple drinks. It’s like, ah, I’ll go back to it, whatever, who cares? I find myself saying, Oh, well, if you are really serious about stopping this about not vaping, then you should just take all the current vapes, you have now and throw them, you know, in the trash or flush them down the toilet, you wouldn’t one flush them down the toilet, but you know, get rid of them, destroy them. And then you couldn’t go and vape even if you wanted to. And then I think about that. And I’m like, but I have the control not to so there’s no need to do that. So it’s like there’s that one last thing in the back of my head. That’s like, No, don’t do that. Just in case, you know?

Dr. Nzinga Harrison  12:54

Yeah. Now, I hear you.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison 

All right, Claire. I think it’s about time for a break. Shall we?

Claire Jones 

We shall.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison 

And so where are you now on the journey on the path.

Sergio 

I had, maybe, I don’t know, like a couple months ago, try it again to stop vaping. And then school starts again, and then work. And then and that’s the other thing, you know, linked with stress. Whenever I get super stressed, it’s like, oh, gosh, I need to vape I need my fix of nicotine. And so school starts, work starts, everything starts. And then I go out to the to get drinks with friends one night, and then boom, I’m back on it.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison 

All of it is there. So we talked about the magic formula for how you get as an addiction in remission and how you keep it there. But the other side of where that magic formula comes from is the triggers, right? And so you went back to school, your stress got higher. But then you also went back to work. So your means to get the vape got easier. That’s a double whammy, then you landed in the environment where vaping is totally everybody’s doing it and you’re hanging out with your friends is the most important thing that happens at college. Okay, like yeah, classes, grades, future setup for jobs. Yes, that’s important. But emotionally and psychologically, developmentally, the most important part of college is your friends, period, hands down.

And so you literally have all this confluence of factors, convincing your brain that there’s no other choice, but to pick up that thing. And so if you think about stress, money, friends, social environment, because what we want to try to get to is a magic formula that can jump over those that can supersede those changes that the world is gonna bring you, like period. You’re gonna be in a cab and there There’s gonna be a JUUL on the scene, like the world. Oh, and so this is what’s so funny. I’ve been taking care of people with addiction for a long time I’ll never forget, where a person who was trying to get in recovery from cocaine addiction, and they smoke, they’re cocaine. So they use crack.

And they came in to me and I was like, you know, how you doing what’s going on since the last time you saw me, and they’re like, Doc, I promise, I was just walking down the street. And I looked down. And there was crack, like, somebody had just like, dropped some crack. And it was just like, on the ground. And I couldn’t pass it. I picked it up. And I took it, and I used it. And they had, they were like, a couple of months into remission. And I remember I started thinking about that, I wouldn’t have even seen that crack. If I was walking down the street, if I had gotten in that cab, I probably would have never even seen that JUUL. But your brain is in tuned to find it when you have an addiction to it. And so since you know, the world is going to bring this to you. How do we start building a magic formula for you that helps, you know, helps you supersede what the world brings? What do you think those pieces might be for you?

Sergio  16:19

Honestly, I have no idea. I have no idea. I think, you know, we, we talk a lot about willpower. And I feel like, as somebody who has addiction running through their veins from both sides, my mom and my dad, I feel like I have like no willpower. Like, it’s very hard for me just to say no, in all contexts, whether that’s, you know, smoking, whether that’s drinking. So, for me, it’s I feel like it’s the willpower. It’s like, I can’t find it in me to say, you know, I’m just not going to do that. Or I’m just, and I’m, I guess you could say it’s also, you know, social pressure, maybe I don’t take but I feel like it went from people saying, hey, just do this, to me becoming the person that says, Oh, it’s look at me, I do just fine. You know, try this, why not to other people, which I do, you know, makes me feel bad, but, and maybe part of it after listening to this show, maybe part of it is that I’m looking outside and I need to be looking inside.

Claire Jones 

For people who are listening Nzinga his face right now is just..

Sergio 

I’m gonna guess you’re gonna start talking about therapy?

Dr. Nzinga Harrison 

Yes! Somebody is a regular listener,

Sergio 

therapy, therapy therapy,

Dr. Nzinga Harrison 

That check as in the mail, okay, let me touch on a bunch of things. You said no, cause you are like, you are just so spot on, I want to start with this concept of willpower. The first power you have is not willpower. It’s understanding your own biological risk, then I don’t want you to take willpower as if I had more willpower, I could do this. Because if you have more willpower, you could get your blood pressure down. Probably not. If you have more willpower. And diabetes, you could control your blood sugar, probably not. If you have more willpower, right? So we’re going to apply that same thing. But even though it’s not about willpower for your blood pressure, if I knew more about what was causing it, I could probably get it down. Even though it’s not about willpower for your blood sugar when you have diabetes, if I knew more about how my body and my brain worked, and what’s causing my blood sugar to be high, and how my life is contributing to that, I could probably get my blood sugar down.

This is that collective will because I heard you say I feel bad when I tell other kids yeah, you might as well vape. Like I feel a little world changer spirit in you. And we know you’re susceptible. I’m going to use this word minus the negative connotations to your friends and your peer group and your environment. The reason we know that it’s because last I checked Sergio is a human being. So yes, we know you’re susceptible to that. So how do you intentionally use the new insight you have to craft a peer group that supports you being able to not vape or supports you being able to not drink? We know when your stress goes high that’s going to trigger craving because that’s how the brain works when stress is high. What’s the lowest hanging fruit for your brain right now? It’s vaping.

And so one how do we get proactive and try to keep stress low but two how do we have a safety plan in place so that when your stress is high, you recognize it because that’s the thing that we all suck at, is even realizing we have stress until we’re totally stressed out. It’s like, our brains and bodies give us a lot of clues. And then we don’t get it until the wheels fall off. This is myself. This is I like; I don’t get it until I cuss at one of the kids. And then I’m like, Oh, I must be stressed out. I’m sorry for cussing at you. I just had to apologize as I your yesterday, I was like, I’m sorry I cussed at you. But I was like, I clearly need to examine my stress load. If I have cussed at a teenager, it’s not my style, right? So being able to recognize that earlier, before it gets to the point where your prefrontal cortex can’t say no.

Claire Jones  20:40

And Nzinga, that goes back to something that we talked about, I think in a more recent episode, where it’s like, when you I think your example was the Skittles example with kids when you’re tired, right? Like your ability to just say, No, when you’re stressed is low. But you’re saying if you get to those steps earlier on, and you can sort of like mitigate how high that stress level gets, then you have a better ability to be able to say, No,

Dr. Nzinga Harrison 

That’s exactly right. So therapy, you know, I was getting there.

Sergio 

Yes.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison

One, we’ll help you recognize, what are the things that stress you out, so you can try to prevent them, but two, what stress feels like earlier in the game for you so that it’s not until the wheels fall off before you recognize it. And three, how to have a plan in place for when your stress is going up that you have other coping skills, like basically what we do in rehab is we train the prefrontal cortex to have a different knee jerk. When the dopamine pathway sends forward I need to vape the prefrontal cortex is already prepared with Oh, actually, I can do this instead of vaping. And the dopamine pathway says, but we really need to vape and the prefrontal cortex says, Oh, I already have another tool queued up for that. If you don’t prepare the prefrontal cortex in advance, that message comes forward, we need to vape and the prefrontal cortex is like, well, I got nothing better. So guess we going vape. It’s not willpower, its biology.

Claire Jones  22:10

What is it like for you, as somebody who’s still in college, who is in this culture where alcohol is normalized and vaping is normalized to talk to your friends about having an addiction?

Sergio 

I guess the only description I could give is just it’s hard. I mean, who as a college student wants to say, we’re all addicted to alcohol and nicotine. Yeah, you know, that is that is the party pooper? You know, that’s the person that like, everybody’s like, I don’t, why are you telling us that, you know, we’re, again, that same reaction, we’re in college, we’re just having fun. It’s just, you know, this is what we do. So I don’t know if there are any groups on campus who talk about things like this.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison

Funny you should say that Sergio, because I was just googling for you. And in fact, UC Davis has a whole webpage dedicated to the group, which is Aggies for Recovery.

Sergio

Look at the that, you’re so good..

Dr. Nzinga Harrison

Look at that. So most colleges, yeah, most colleges are actually actively trying to cultivate this conversation and create social spaces for students that are concerned about themselves, their friends, or want to have this conversation. So I would say definitely check out Aggies for Recovery, because everybody’s like, Oh, that’s a group of party poopers. And usually not, like a group of very cool people like yourself, who are trying to get ahead of the ball. What words of wisdom do you have for the listener, Sergio? then I’m kicking you out of here.

Sergio 

I guess honestly, what I’m taking from this episode is, you know, for college students seek help. I mean, why not? Why not? I talked to my mom about like, you know, just getting ahead of the problem before it really becomes a problem, especially for those of us who know that addiction runs in our veins. We’re bound to run into it at some point in our lives. So why not one, get ahead of it for yourself and two, maybe even become that person on your campus who can help other students that are struggling with the same thing. So just I guess, seek help. That’s my words of wisdom.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison  24:28

I love it. All right Sergio.

Claire Jones 

Sergio, thank you for coming on.

Sergio

Thank you so much for having me. This was awesome. I wish I could, you know, come on every time by.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison 

Claire, do we have some sponsors we should hear from?

Claire Jones 

We sure do. Let’s take a quick break.

Claire Jones 

Okay, so I feel like when we talk to a lot of people, we spend a lot of the conversation talking about more of the like biological, psychological. And not as we haven’t really talked so much, and really gone into depth of like the cultural political. We’ve touched on it for every person, because it’s part of the magic formula. But this story Sergio’s story is so interesting to me for the cultural aspect, because it seems like it’s a strongest sort of barrier to recovery. So aside from going to Aggies for Recovery, and finding friends that are good resources to be able to talk to, and going to therapy, and mitigating stress and all the other parts of this magic formula, you know, how do you sort of navigate that cultural side of it, especially for young people I know you’ve mentioned before, like Middle School, through college social connections are, are like the most important thing for that age group. And so what sort of advice would you have for young people to navigate this, like, really intense cultural barrier to getting recovery?

Dr. Nzinga Harrison  26:05

Yeah, and so the first is kind of like what I tried to do for Sergio at the end, which was to help him find the people on his campus that are in the culture he wants to be in, because he’s saying, like, I recognize, this is the culture and I have a hard time, not fully integrating, like, it’s the culture of rebellion and heavy drinking and vaping. And I’m having a hard time not being part of it, but he clearly wants and desires something else. And so I would say, Google, literally, he told us, he went to UC Davis. And all I did was Google, UC Davis support for students in addiction recovery. And I immediately found that entire webpage that they had dedicated for this group Aggies for Recovery, find your like-minded people attach with them, like the same way you’re looking for your other clubs, you’re like, I’m interested in art and you’re finding the people who are interested in art, I’m interested in business, you’re finding people who are interested in business, I want to be surrounded by people who are trying not to use.. Google it. There’s a group on almost every campus. And then if there’s not, then going to your Student Health Center, and asking the counselors because they probably have other resources that they can connect you to in the nearby community. And maybe you get that piece not on campus. But we really do ;like, I sound like such a mom right now. My mom used to say to me, and I was like, whatever, but you really are the people you surround yourself with. And so you want to surround yourself with people who want similar things for you.

Claire Jones 

Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. It’s like in college, a lot of colleges like finding your niche. Okay. So then the other question I have is about actual options for medication and for treatment with nicotine. Because like Sergio said, you know, vaping was initially to try and help people off cigarettes.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison  28:01

Yeah, E-cigarettes were the first, so the majority of people who are vaping actually still are. And so vaping and E-cigarettes are separated. But the majority of people who are using a non cigarette delivery mechanism actually are people who are trying to stop smoking. The literature shows that the good majority of people who try to stop smoking using E-cigarettes are still using E-cigarettes. Still, several years later. They’re also new starts. So the problem is that when marketing companies saw that vaping could make money, and they started targeting younger generations, then they made it cool to vape. Instead of it becoming a therapeutic intervention, they basically replaced cigarettes and said, this is a way you can be cool without dying from lung cancer.

And so when you talk about nicotine replacement, we can try smoking cessation. So the magic formula biological, we can try nicotine replacement, which is one of those ads that he got, which is basically like nicotine gum or nicotine patch. And we try to taper that over time to off. You could also try using a Wellbutrin or Chantix, which are oral medications. So there’s a like our biological interventions for nicotine use disorder that has to be coupled with the rest of the biological formula. So we have to get at stress, we have to get at triggers we have to get at biological risk for other addictions, we have to get at depression, anxiety, if that’s there, we have to get at peer group we have to get at culture climate, you have to do all of that. Otherwise, the chance of going back to vaping is higher than the chance of going back to cigarettes because like Sergio told us vaping is more accepted.

When there’s less stigma around it, the bar for relapse for your prefrontal cortex to say yeah, this is okay. It’s a lower bar. That’s kind of like the biological-psychosocial-cultural interventions that we would have to make to try to manage vaping. To the conversation we were having just now about sliding upstream, what would be best is to try to prevent kids from starting vaping in the first place.

Claire Jones  30:19

Yep, that was another one of my questions. So as a parent, like, what can you do as a parent as they’re about to go into college for both things like vaping for drinking, and especially, you know, for the parents for Gen Z. This is all within the last decade. So it’s like, as you’re sort of seeing these numbers go up, what can you do as a parent before a kid goes to college just sort of talk about like, hey, you’re gonna be exposed to a ton of stuff? Hmm. What’s the preventative side of that?

Dr. Nzinga Harrison 

Yeah, so we’re way before college. So you know, I started talking to my kids about addiction. From the time they could understand language. So like, three, four years old, even though they came on that episode, and told y’all that it was like, 13, it was three. Okay, it was three. But having a nuanced age appropriate conversation from as young as they possibly can, what you’re not trying to do is say, just say, No, don’t do drugs don’t take risks, because part of growing up and part of learning life is taking risks. It’s trying to help them do that, like risk evaluation, what is my risk? Do I want to take the risk of trying this?

If I do take the risk of trying this? What are the earliest signs that this is getting out of control? For me? If I see those earliest signs in myself or my friends? What’s the language I can use with my friends? Who can I tell what adult can I access? What resources are there available to me, keeping the conduit open for a nuanced conversation? Because like Sergio told us if you just say no, cause only bad people use and it’s bad and awful and terrible. And then you get to college, and people that you like, that you want to hang out with? Who are fun to be around, who make you feel good about yourself? then guess what that throws all of that everything I said right out the window,

Claire Jones  32:10

Right? Like that argument is now nullified because you’re like, this person isn’t a bad person. So I guess, my parents or my caretakers or whoever was making that up. So like, I’m fine. I can do this.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison 

There it is. Yeah, there it is.

Claire Jones 

That makes total sense. Okay, the very last question that I have is, you know, we sort of talked about like, if you choose in your path to recovery to go totally absent only. Nicotine patches and nicotine gum are kind of like sort of a middle ground for vaping. Where you’re still it’s not abstinence only, but it’s less risky than vaping. Is that right?

Dr. Nzinga Harrison  32:43

Yeah, that’s exactly right. So if we talk about the harm reduction cascade, anything that you burn, and inhale has the highest risk, because burning period in and of itself creates carcinogens, cancer causing things, so anything you burn in inhale has the highest risk, anything you inhale has risk, because you’re like inhaling things into your lungs. So if you look at what’s in a vape cartridge, it’s not only nicotine, it’s dyes. It’s polyethylene alcohol, it’s other chemicals that like make that do that it’s flavorings. So anything you’re inhaling, that’s the next level of risk, anything you’re swallowing, that’s the next level of risk anything you’re putting your skin, that’s the next level of risk, just like a for a general framework. So that’s the reducing risk cascade. Another thing that would be in the middle is that nicotine cartridges come in different concentrations. And so you might reduce the concentration of the nicotine cartridges that you’re using as a Harm Reduction Strategy for reducing the amount of nicotine that you’re using. And then you can move from a nicotine vape to a non nicotine vape to no vaping at all. So there are a lot of different ways.

Claire Jones 

Cool. Great. Do you have anything else that you want to add?

Dr. Nzinga Harrison 

No, I think we’ll end with Sergio’s words of wisdom, which is there are more resources than you think. So we always think like, especially at college, everybody’s doing it. Actually no, no, every everybody’s not maybe everybody that you’re currently around is. And so how can you get more people around you who are not, they’re always more resources than you think.

Claire Jones  34:23

Yeah, thank you. Okay, so that’s it for this week.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison

We’ll catch y’all next Monday.

CREDITS

34:33

IN RECOVERY is a Lemonada Media original. This show is produced by Claire Jones and edited by Ivan Kuraev. Jackie Danziger is our supervising producer. Our theme was composed by Dan Molad with additional music by Ivan Kuraev. Stephanie Wittels Wachs and Jessica Cordova Kramer, are our executive producers. Rate us review us and say nice things. Follow us at @lemonadamedia across all platforms or find me on Twitter at @naharrisonmd. If you’ve learned from us, share the show with your others. Let’s help to stigmatize addiction together.

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