F*ck Around and Find Out

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This week, Jess is bumping boundaries and June is vowing to show the movie Scrambled to all the women in the world. Then, just when Jessica thought they were completely yolked heading into the Super Bowl, June shares her distressing opinion of the infamous Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce kiss.

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June Diane Raphael, Jessica St. Clair

Jessica St. Clair  00:10

Hi, I’m Jessica St. Clair.


June Diane Raphael  00:12

And I’m June Diane Raphael, and this is The Deep Dive.


Jessica St. Clair  00:17

We’re about to do what women have done for centuries. We are crowding around the fire with our generous hunches. We got babies hanging off our tits, and we’re going to share with you our fears.


June Diane Raphael  00:27

That’s right.


Jessica St. Clair  00:28

Our joys, our tips on how to stay alive.


June Diane Raphael  00:32

Now Jess, we’re heating a call that no one has made.


Jessica St. Clair  00:37

Not a soul, but you’re invited to listen. Absolutely, because we make one promise and one promise only we will not Google a thing because frankly, we’re too damn tired. Please get ready to go on the Deep Dive.


June Diane Raphael  00:57

Hi, Jessica.


Jessica St. Clair  00:58

Hello, June, how are you?


June Diane Raphael  01:03

Well, I’m single parenting this week.


Jessica St. Clair  01:07

Oh, boy.


June Diane Raphael  01:08

So just, you know, just really under it. Under it and over it, and yeah, it’s in the first 24 hours that Dan leaves. I lean into my Gilmore Girls energy, which involves no schedule. Dan’s like a hobbit, he has very prescribed schedules for things and he really keeps me on my game. And so when he leaves we’re like, hamburgers for breakfast, who cares? I’m dying babies hair, I dyed babies hair. Just some money pieces in the front.


Jessica St. Clair  01:47

What color?


June Diane Raphael  01:49

Just some blonde money pieces on the front, they’re called Money pieces.


Jessica St. Clair  01:52

Blonde, okay, so she’s just getting like, while you’re getting her highlights.


June Diane Raphael  01:57

I gave her highlights but okay.


Jessica St. Clair  02:00

You know, like funny because I’m getting I’ve got children begging me to dye their hair like blue. And you know, also boys are getting perms.


June Diane Raphael  02:09

They shouldn’t.


Jessica St. Clair  02:10

Did you know this?


June Diane Raphael  02:11

I don’t, I don’t want to know it.


Jessica St. Clair  02:14

Boys are getting curbs not girls, boys anyway. So yeah, so and then, you know, unfortunately, the Gilmore Girls experience only works on television, because eventually it all breaks down because you’ve just been eating cheeseburgers for 48 hours, and then you just run out of steam and so that’s where we’re at today is getting a lot of blowback from my behaviors in the last 48 hours. And so now we have to level set, you know.


June Diane Raphael  02:40

Of course, yeah, it’s just some.


Jessica St. Clair  02:44

You don’t realize how a partner anchors you until they leave.


June Diane Raphael  02:48

Yeah, it’s interesting like, I feel that, you know, not having a schedule, it’s sometimes like it seems so appealing, but you know, kids need it and we need it too.


Jessica St. Clair  03:01

I know, I know like you shouldn’t be having sushi with a 10 year old at 830 at night.


June Diane Raphael  03:08



Jessica St. Clair  03:09

I found that out the hard way, okay. So that’s you know, you I’m not Samantha and Sex in the City. She’s not Carrie we have to remember that. You know, I’m not a professional hair colorist. As much as I’ve watched mine at work I had the foils out I mean, I was trying to but I didn’t have the tools you know, I really didn’t I just had the bleach.


June Diane Raphael  03:33

See it’s so funny because there’s certain things Jess, that I’m old fashioned about when it comes to kids I hear like there’s a part of me there’s like a grandmother energy that comes out.


Jessica St. Clair  03:45

My mother has begged me to I did this once before and I tried to hide it when we went to see her over the holidays and I was like put your hair back put it back put on a hat it’s cold in here. And she was like what are you doing? And you know Dan was ready said you need that dopamine hit that’s what this is about you do you just need the excitement what will happen you know and then when she’s in the shower and she’s like my eyes are burning and I was like oh god if I have to text my brother and say like I blinded BB with bleach like this is gonna be so bad. Yeah, it’s gonna be bad alright.


June Diane Raphael  04:23

It’s so funny because well, I mean to dye at blonde that’s a different that’s like a just a different experience. But I’m getting questions about you know, a lot of their favorite athletes and soccer players are like have got blue hair and purple hair and they.


Jessica St. Clair  04:36

Don’t want to see that.


June Diane Raphael  04:37

And this and that.


Jessica St. Clair  04:38

Your boys will always look like Robber Barons from, like the 1930s they’re always going to be with a little slicked, you know, just a little tiny part. That’s what their look is, that’s their look it’s classic, it’s America.


June Diane Raphael  04:53

And I just was like, trying to say to them too, to get the color because I did look up on online, blue hair on voice. But as we know, Jessica, and it’s like I’ve to feel like I can offer this to them to get the level and pigment of blue that like fluorescent blue that they desire, I have to fully bleach their hair.


Jessica St. Clair  05:18

You’ll have to go to m&m, and then you’re gonna have to take them to blue. And that’s when you take it from there.


June Diane Raphael  05:24

No, so it’s like and what the process is to bleach like as you just did it, but.


Jessica St. Clair  05:32

It’s not as hard as it looks.


June Diane Raphael  05:34

I just mean, the stripping of all and color, pigment listen from the head, like, I won’t do it to a nine year old.


Jessica St. Clair  05:44

It’s not right. And I apologize, unfortunately, I have to make the mistake at least two or three times, you know, listen.


June Diane Raphael  05:52

You didn’t, I’m glad, I’m glad it wasn’t a color. You know and again, if you’re if Deep Divers if you’re coloring your kids hair, you know, great, awesome, it’s just it, it bumps against my own boundaries, and maybe I’m a grandma and that’s okay, it bumps against my boundaries.


Jessica St. Clair  06:11

It’s my bumps against mine, too. That’s the big it’s like, I do have an inner voice that says no, but I override her she’s and if Dan’s not there to say no, or like to find out, you know, fuck around and find out he finds out on on FaceTime. And I was like, get your hair out of the sunlight. You know, I didn’t want to really come out that way.


June Diane Raphael  06:33

Well, you know, of course, like when I was growing up I just all I did was tried to put like lemon juice and summon and all sorts of things all manner of thing on my head during the summer. And they always left me with like a bit of an orange but I’m at dark Burnham now I know that’s breakout.


June Diane Raphael  06:33

So same as BB. […]


Jessica St. Clair  06:41

Same as BB, so that’s where we’re at, we’re in that color family. We’re in that color story.


June Diane Raphael  06:59

Well, Jess, I have to report to you that I do. You know, it’s I’ve said this before, that’s unfortunate, but true. I had two glasses of wine last night.


Jessica St. Clair  07:13

After your consumption.


June Diane Raphael  07:15

Suffering after my consumption, I know we are old.


Jessica St. Clair  07:22

Can’t do it anymore.com. I gotta return to a drink. Like, I think I’m gonna go back to my Aperol spritzes because this saying it like and I really do think it’s the sugar more than anything else. That’s like, I I woke up early to sleep like I was just like.


June Diane Raphael  07:41

No, it’s fucks with you, it fucks with you big time.


Jessica St. Clair  07:44

Also, if you’re like a marathon drinker, if you’re drinking every night, your body is accustomed to it, but you’re coming in hot. Now where were you when you have these glasses?


June Diane Raphael  07:53

I am in a motion picture called Ccrambled.


Jessica St. Clair  08:00

Okay, okay.


June Diane Raphael  08:01

It’s got like a theatrical nationwide release, which you know, in this day and age for an indie film is like just absolutely impossible. Now it premiered at South by Southwest. I didn’t get to see it while I was there, because of course, I was hosting the dateline panel so unfortunately, that’s weird.


June Diane Raphael  08:20

I am in it for one seat, I’ve literally in it for two minutes, so it’s so don’t see it for me, let me see if I see it for me if you must, but I have not been this inspired and energized by a movie. Lea McHenry, mackendrick star writer director.


June Diane Raphael  08:40

You know what it was Jess like I am so inspired by women who are making movies and narrate the LEA is the only one that I see right now. Who are going for hard jokes. This isn’t your sleepy Sundance indie drama it with like maybe a joke here or there. She’s going for jokes and they’re landing and they’re outrageous. They are outrageous.


Jessica St. Clair  09:07

Hot for this. I’m hot for this.


June Diane Raphael  09:10

So I have decided talking about dopamine hit. I literally saw the movie, I turned to Sam Cerrone, Boston who’s who came with me. And I turned to her and I said, I need to host a screening this weekend. And so this morning, I’ve spent the morning figuring out how to buy out a theater so that I can invite people. I must have people see this. I must have women see it, because it, okay, great.


Jessica St. Clair  09:34

I’m already there.


June Diane Raphael  09:35

Jess it’s just like hilarious and I just haven’t been this. And you got to see it with an audience. I haven’t, it’s about a woman freezing her eggs, and her journey.


Jessica St. Clair  09:49

We love this. I love oh God it’s good.


June Diane Raphael  09:52

And she’s so there’s just nothing better than seeing truly messy women on the screen. Truly demented so I love fleabag so much. It’s like, it sort of was reminiscent for me that it’s just like demented wrong hilarious women. Oh, that just gets me in the downstairs and […] no I know inspired me. And of course I’m in it so it’s like, you know, there’s that but it just inspired the hell out of me and I I will not rest until people see this film, Scrambled.


Jessica St. Clair  10:33

It’s like when I saw Lenin do her one woman show she tried to be normal, where she did a dramatic monologue from Freddy Krueger. Which was so amongst other things, she played an aged solid gold dancer who was teaching children and I didn’t know Lenin at the time, and I sat next to Brett Gelman known maniac, another […]


June Diane Raphael  10:59

Demented hero.


Jessica St. Clair  11:00

And of course, I’ve known Brett from the time I was 22. But I wanted I laughed. I was laughing so hard that laughing was no longer an option. And I had to take my fist and put a little knuckle up and I had to dead arm. I had to punch Brett Gelman over and over again. I needed him to understand what I was witnessing. And I haven’t had those feelings. I had it last week when I did the table read of that show with Ted Danson and Sally Struthers. And I was like, I’m not in this. I’m never going to be invited to be a part of this. But I need to tell the person responsible that they have created something good. And they’re just like, whoa, like I know it’s good, okay, I got Ted Danson in it. I know I’m good, but I’m like you. I think we’ve been living in a creative desert for the past.


June Diane Raphael  11:52

What it is?


Jessica St. Clair  11:52

Five years, listen.


June Diane Raphael  11:54

I won’t name the movie, but there’s a movie that came out that was a kind of a sleeper hit romantic comedy. But I saw that and I was like this is they’re telling us that this is our Sandra Bullock and Matthew McConaughey, are we to believe this is Meg Ryan and Tom Hanks, this is garbage. And so when I saw this movie, I was like, oh, thank you for risking something, thank you for and it’s also just beautiful, I mean, let me tell you, one line that I really related to and I think every woman is going to be gutted by about this woman is freezing her eggs. And she doesn’t have a boyfriend. She’s in her mid 30s, she’s going through the process. She’s giving herself shots alone. And she says this whole time and you see her every weekend, so baby showers at a wedding. You know, everything is you know, and then and then she says to this random neighbor who she delivers this beautiful monologue to she’s like, I I thought we were all having fun at a dance party. I thought this was a dance party, and now I’m realizing that it was fucking musical chairs. And everybody got their seat. Oh my God. You June, June, June, whoa. Oh, God, it will make me cry again, because I’m like, fuck. That is what it is to be a woman that is the timeline, that sort of anxiety that clock that. And you know, that’s even just symptoms, what it feels like, career wise like, are we all having a good time? Or is everybody frantically trying to get seated in a chair? Yeah, and did I miss? Am I supposed to be doing that? Or am I having fun? Are we dancing? Or is the music and estoppel we’re supposed to grab a chair.


Jessica St. Clair  14:02

That’s, it’s also so insightful to not just this is when when art becomes elevated, because that’s her experience. But I do believe that’s the experience we all have inside 1000 I’ll never forget when I was looking at this language reading this book called you’re wearing that question mark about this woman just recorded hours, hundreds of hours of women talking to each other to five year olds talking to each other to women and their mothers and the way we relate and the five year olds were playing and I’m pretty sure I told this on this podcast and one said as make believe I’m wearing contacts. And the other one said I am too. We all have to be the same. That’s how we bond as women, I am too. Like you’re pretty I am too and it’s like that continues and I will never fucking forget. Been through breast cancer. Lennon and I had our babies four months apart five months apart. And then in the midst of my  DPL Lennon had to say to me in a Target parking lot.


June Diane Raphael  15:04

Isn’t it always got to be in target. It’s always got to be a target.


Jessica St. Clair  15:07

Why that parking lot has seen so much, so many tears. So much life, it must be exhausting. But she said, I have to tell you, I’m pregnant with my second. And I was like, push me out of this car, I want to just lay in this Target parking lot for the rest of my life. And not because I necessarily wanted another one. But because she was going to be different. I felt safe when it was the two of us. And I thought, you know, she’s an only child, I thought, well, she’s going to make it okay. And whatever, Lennon does feel safe to me. She’s a safe harbor, she’s a sacred base.


June Diane Raphael  15:55

She’s a good place to put your money.


Jessica St. Clair  15:57

She’s like an old mayor.


June Diane Raphael  15:59

She’s like in an old man in like a Roth IRA or something like it’s like a very diverse portfolio we’re not taking swings on some newfangled.


Jessica St. Clair  16:09

She’s gonna deliver a very consistent return.


June Diane Raphael  16:14

That’s right.


Jessica St. Clair  16:15

On your investment, so suddenly, I was like, I’m alone. I’m alone in this only child journey. Now I wasn’t because I had Danielle with me but I but I remember just the loneliness and then of course like everything revealed itself to be the right path for both of us. But that took me the jealousy the almost anger and then also the conflict that you wanted to be happy for your friend and you were happy but also you wanted to stab yourself and then her.


June Diane Raphael  16:50

Yeah, there’s these are these are multiple truths right that are possible.


Jessica St. Clair  16:54

The jealousy I was thinking June the jealousy you felt about people’s parents being alive.


June Diane Raphael  17:01



June Diane Raphael  17:03

Not as much anymore we’ll say it’s actually noticing that the other day like is good and not as much people’s parents are dying.


June Diane Raphael  17:12

We all join.


June Diane Raphael  17:13

It’s not that I don’t It’s not that I don’t wish I had that. I do of course I do.


June Diane Raphael  17:18

I think I’m just more at peace I guess I got I just so I think that’s so true that and I can do that same and I know we all can that same thing of looking around and wondering like are we partying or is this a race to get yours? Yeah, to get yours.


Jessica St. Clair  17:44

Well, what is yours and yours is really safety that’s all we ever want to feel is like that the ground is stable under us but unfortunately and you know, as I have all these books spread about the girl cottage, things fall apart when things fall apart. The places that scare you down was like how about a magazine in here? Like this is a den of deep thoughts. But like that is it every we are on sand. And it is always changing and shifting under us, but we will always as humans try to grasp on to something you know, because we can’t all be sitting in meditation trying to like no come to grips with the impermanence of life. I mean, I’m giving it a shot.


June Diane Raphael  18:29

Yes, and it’s such a unique position for women to be in who are thinking of having children want to have children. There’s just simply some biology to contend with. And I really felt this film and how it portrayed that of just that feeling of like I want freedom in my choices.


Jessica St. Clair  18:58

Okay, it’s time to take a break we will be right back after this.


June Diane Raphael  19:23

So all we want is freedom to make our choices I’m going to know you know about that Jess was like, we just.


Jessica St. Clair  19:30

I know about that.


June Diane Raphael  19:31

we just want space.


Jessica St. Clair  19:33

I will never forget. I go to the guy who I mean he was the Kardashians fertility course. A friend of ours long we all everybody in Los Angeles knows him but I had what did I have June, two weeks to like try to harvest some eggs. I had like a month and I didn’t have a chance to even think if I wanted another one. And I remember when they told me the first time they said, you have cancer, breast cancer, I said, oh my god, I think only thought I had was I can’t have a second one. Even though I didn’t, I’m gonna tell you I didn’t want it, I didn’t want a second. I didn’t need a second one. I’m, I have my gilmore girls dream, I really do. You know, you see me with her very no one else. There’s no empty chair at this table, there isn’t. But I was like, gotta get it, gotta get it. And I went in there, and I was 38 years old. And he’s like, well, you only got nine eggs in there. That’s I shocked you got pregnant the first time really? Like, that was a miracle. Because you got pregnant so easily the first first first time. Wow. But I was like, what? Kay Chua? And so we tried, it didn’t work the first time then we tried again. And I just wanted the option. I didn’t want to have the second one. I don’t. yeah, I didn’t but I wanted the option and I was fucking pissed. I was so pissed, and I even had a friend my friend Molly, who was my first guest at the GC, the girl cottage for the new listeners. And she is my college roommate. And looks like my sister, and she. I’ll never forget, she goes, hey, just so you know, if you get one of these, and it works, I’ll put it in my body. She’d already had two kids was like, a no brainer. I’ll carry your baby for you just so you know. And you know what, even though it didn’t, it didn’t work out, and that was the fact that some another woman because I really hated being pregnant. The fact that she was like with no hesitation, put your egg in my body and I will give up a year of my life, if that is your dream.


June Diane Raphael  22:06

I’ve offered it to women in my life.


Jessica St. Clair  22:09

Have you?


June Diane Raphael  22:09



June Diane Raphael  22:11

I’m not surprised. I would do it in a heartbeat, it’s like a no brainer. It is a no brainer.


June Diane Raphael  22:18

It is a no brainer.


Jessica St. Clair  22:19

And me too June.


June Diane Raphael  22:20

I know yeah, if someone I’m like this is huge for you. And yeah, I would do it in a heartbeat.


Jessica St. Clair  22:25

Hundred percent I give a kidney I , whatever you need. Whatever organ you need, if I can.


June Diane Raphael  22:30

No one’s taken me up to with that.


Jessica St. Clair  22:32

I will it’s nice to know, we’ll probably because I knew you’d be like then you’re paying for a tummy tuck. Like you’d find some way to turn it into an elective.


June Diane Raphael  22:45

Accepted my offer but I have put it out there a few times my eggs are availabl, my body’s way he seems interested my body. I think that’s so beautiful, though. And it’s why it’s it’s why I want to talk about like reproductive freedom and being pro choice. And it’s that choice piece. That super important piece because it is freedom, it is freedom. And I don’t know just major shout out to all of the the women who are dealing with that and considering freezing your eggs. I always say if you’re thinking about freezing your eggs that you may want to do it at some point do it now. No better time than right now.


Jessica St. Clair  23:38

It wasn’t really a thing. I’m a couple years older than you it wasn’t really that was happening. But it was like, oh, that’s new. So but now I see my young women that I have in my life and I love that they’re giving if they can it’s very cost prohibitive. That’s fucking stupid. That’s and you know, you go to Germany, I had a friend who who got pregnant three times via artificial you know, it’s free in Germany, it’s free. That’s all free, she would go to her German husband, she go back, get get pregnant, come back, and obviously, you know, adoption is such a wonderful option that dunkles have the most beautiful two girls so beautiful. So it’s there all the things are the option but but yeah, options and freedom and choice. That’s all we ever want, we don’t want to feel that things are being taken away from us. The other thing I want to bring up today June is so I had a really wonderful conversation. We’re going to have her on with the boundaries expert. She’s a therapist, but her specialty is in boundaries her name’s Sarah Gilman, and we interviewed her for the art of small talk book. And I’ve of course, started meeting with her privately. Because I realized in that book I needed, I needed more. But she was saying in regards to being a caregiver to somebody going through something that when you try to play all the roles, parent, doctor, therapist, psychiatrist, you know, friend like you, playing all those roles will lead to a nervous breakdown because you’re not meant to play all those roles. And so, and I thought, Oh God, it’s coming.


June Diane Raphael  25:22

I go, so what are you supposed to do?


Jessica St. Clair  25:24

She’s like, well, you’re just supposed to be with them.


June Diane Raphael  25:30

And I was like, what? This is not comfortable for me. You’re not supposed to fix it?  I’m the fixer.


June Diane Raphael  25:39

I know, and I, you know.


June Diane Raphael  25:41

I can’t urge you to listen to I guess, your own podcast when I had Rabbi Sharon brows on, because I could refer you back to this, this very podcast. So what she talks about, though to is this idea of like, can you bear witness? But what she says is, is it’s not just that we’re witnessing someone else. It’s she calls it witness, can we offer witness, which is just, I’m here, I’m here. And I don’t know why this is happening. And I don’t know but I’m here. And, you know, I had to, I will say just one time, I had to talk to somebody who I was really scared to talk to because of the enormous tragic experience she had just had. I was an I know how to get on the phone with her, and I knew I had to speak with her and tragedy, the likes of which we’d never known, had happened to her and her children, okay and I literally before I got on the phone with her. I see I did do some meditation. And I really asked God, to, to help me listen. All I wanted to do is like, listen, and not be worried about the next thing to say. Listen with my ear bulbs, listen to her. And yeah, it really helped me a lot.


Jessica St. Clair  27:36

Well, that’s what she said to meditate before and then afterwards, because you have to center yourself so that you don’t, because when you’re offering fixes, it’s for you, really.


June Diane Raphael  27:51

And it’s hard to sit in, you know, people like to sit in discomfort.


Jessica St. Clair  27:56

No, apparently not don’t, so the more we can like move to action action items. CTA is like let’s go what’s our list? You know, what, what are we leaving this call with of what’s going on? Who’s doing what?


June Diane Raphael  28:11

That being said, you know, when you summoned me to the four seasons with that you were using as your Starbucks and said, I’m gonna give you all the healers, and we’re going to send people with different modalities to your home, one of which named Evan.


Jessica St. Clair  28:26

I’ll never forget that man laying his hands on me.


June Diane Raphael  28:30

Not all healers are gonna laugh.


Jessica St. Clair  28:34

But, but in that same conversation, where you did you know, take out a Rolodex and give me these numbers and names. You did also hold me because I said to you, you know, what do you think I might do you think I’m gonna die? And you said, No, and then I said, have you ever been standing over a cliff? And looking down and not knowing what’s going to happen? And you said, I have, I have, and to know you weren’t still on that cliff was very comforting. It’s a way to listen and also give comfort about the future. But that’s not always possible.


June Diane Raphael  29:19

But I also think it’s feeling into and this is the listening part, feeling into what someone needs to hear and how someone needs you to show up there people who want a worrier to step in front of them and say, I’m going to, I’m going to slice down all of the foliage so you can walk through the past behind me. There, but I also think we can’t know that until we listen.


Jessica St. Clair  29:48

Stop saying that word. It’s so offensive to me.


June Diane Raphael  29:51

I know it is Jess.


Jessica St. Clair  29:52

And you keep playing into your tears and like, you know, like you’re a kindergarten teacher and I’m like, I don’t want to I think I’ve been very clear.


June Diane Raphael  30:00

I have my two fingers up. The teachers used to put their two fingers up in the auditorium to get people to get the kids quiet tubers.


Jessica St. Clair  30:08

Yes, yes.


June Diane Raphael  30:09

It’s so funny, and then you’d have to all the kids with their fingers, we’re all everybody’s said. Listen, listen, listen. It’s hard, hardest thing.


Jessica St. Clair  30:24

Yeah, if anybody, any Deep Divers have any tips on how to listen, please let me know because.


June Diane Raphael  30:32

Well, I told you the funniest thing happened was me and Paul, were I, we were in a flight somewhere and I was looking through a magazine. And there was something there was some sort of quiz you’re supposed to give your partner and on how well they hear you, you know, have a little listen to you. And I was like, Paul, you’re doing this right now. Like, you’re gonna be taking this quiz. And he took it passed with flying […]


Jessica St. Clair  30:56

And it’s like 50 Shades of Grey?


June Diane Raphael  30:59

Like he’s like, no, you do it and I was like, fine. I failed so spectacularly he’s like, Jesus just said that you hear it? I didn’t know, I didn’t hear it. Now, as you know, my my medication has changed as of this year. And I am, I am finding it easier to listen. So I don’t know if you want tips, but like Wellbutrin suiting me just fine.


June Diane Raphael  31:26

Well, I think it just means a lot to me. I am curious so I know you’re working on your boundary coach, I know you wanted to set a boundary with someone and you and I were going back and forth on what that was looked like had that go.


Jessica St. Clair  31:26

I up, up, up, down. Up, up, up. And that’s good. It helps. That’s something honestly, it helps. I’m no longer crying all the time. And that’s really good. And I it does give you a bit of distance between yourself and the moment a little bit of distance. Not too much but yeah, yeah, I just I just was curious, because I do think you’re a very good listener, even though you failed that quiz. You’re great. You’re but you’re also really for me. I come to you for sage wisdom and advice. I text you I say, I’m curious as to how to do this. And you are very assured in your advice. And it’s, I think, very sound advice.


Jessica St. Clair  32:27

Not great.


June Diane Raphael  32:30

Really didn’t. It didn’t land with the person of setting a boundary with.


Jessica St. Clair  32:36

The hardest part for me is not letting somebody down. It was so hard to write in your voice. I wrote a text as Jessica like Roxanne style, I was like, send this to that person.


Jessica St. Clair  32:49

But it was hard to it was actually very hard to capture your voice. I was like they’re gonna know it’s me.


Jessica St. Clair  32:55

Because we are so different in this way, which is why I went to you because I need to, I need to often borrow some June energy. But what’s so hard for me is when. So it’s hard for me because I want to fix so then I crossed someone else’s boundaries. It’s hard for me when somebody says I need this from you. But I can’t give it because I don’t want to not give them what they want. And so I over promise, and then I end up pissing them off because I can’t deliver. So I have to I did it halfway. And I really didn’t do it at all. Okay, so how are you getting to the bottom, I guess it’s really not halfway, it’s actually a boundary not set yet. I didn’t do it. So now I have to do even something even more embarrassing, which is go back and say actually, that boundary I didn’t set I gotta reset. And now I seem like a crazy person. But ultimately, there are only so many hours in the day. And I have jam packed it, you know, to the point where I don’t have any downtime, and I will end up freaking out. So it’s not sustainable. It’s a person problem. And that’s what it’s one that I struggle with. I need to strengthen that muscle. That’s all and and the only way to strengthen it is to do it. And then Siri says when you set a boundary, and somebody freaks out on the other end.


June Diane Raphael  34:25

Ding ding ding.


Jessica St. Clair  34:26

That’s actually your sign that you’re setting a boundary because they’re supposed to freak out. They’re supposed to do anything they can to get what they want back.


June Diane Raphael  34:38

It’s so interesting, because it’s like, what I’m starting to feel there’s there’s this woman I mean, this was a while ago, she kept on emailing me about doing a podcast like being a guest on our podcast. I kept saying no because well, I didn’t want to do it. There’s no other way to say it. But I was saying I can’t make that time I can make that time, which was true. But then I started to realize by saying I can’t make that time work. I’m still inviting another ask for the future.


Jessica St. Clair  35:15

Yes, yes.


June Diane Raphael  35:16

Because the that would be an honest answer for a friend, if that was the case. But I knew that there was never going to be a time where I wanted to do this. And so I finally I wrote her and I said, and it was embarrassing. It’s like you said, it’s, if you don’t set it the first time, then you look, they’re looking nuts. And you’ve also waste someone else’s time. So yeah, I then say to her, you know, I am not gonna be able to do this time again. But I’m also not going to be able to do anytime. Really, you know, I tried to book myself out for like a year, that was my first step toward creating a boundary. I was like, I’m the next year swamped kids, I started giving her a litany of excuses kids, this and that. And then she writes back and says, Oh, I’ll never forget the email. She says, no worries, everything was so friendly, and you had to be wary of that. I’d be careful like, you got to be careful of an email persona that is to up easy, breezy, it’s okay, okay. And she says, No problem. June, I totally get it hearts and emojis. I’ll just keep on bugging you and checking in. And ever, you know, when something opens up, and and I’m fine to do that, no. And then I thought to myself, June, what the fuck are you doing? Because every time an email comes in, it’s gonna drain me it is draining.


Jessica St. Clair  36:56



June Diane Raphael  36:58

And it’s bringing my vibration down.


Jessica St. Clair  37:01

You’re drained, because your boundaries being crossed every time someone crosses your boundary.


June Diane Raphael  37:06

My boundaries being crossed, and I’m letting it happen.


Jessica St. Clair  37:09

Yeah, you’re, yeah, you’re taking it.


June Diane Raphael  37:11

And then I finally wrote back.


Jessica St. Clair  37:15

Okay, more on that after this quick break.


June Diane Raphael  37:38

I wrote back and I said, I wasn’t honest. And I want to be because I think I’ve wasted your time. It was utterly insanity, I think have wasted your time. I said, the truth is, I don’t want you to keep bugging me. Oh, God, because my capacity and my bandwidth and what I’m, what I’m handling in my life, this 45 minute zoom, or whatever the fuck it was recording is not ever going to fit into. And I want to be honest about that. So you can pursue someone who actually wants to do this. And I’m asking you to not respond to this email and to not write me and ask me to do this again.


Jessica St. Clair  38:26

And did you ever hear back?


June Diane Raphael  38:27

No. Okay. And I probably really fucking burned a bridge because I couldn’t do it earlier.


Jessica St. Clair  38:35

I know, I know it. It’s like, say know how many times and by the way, where you say no to me all the fucking time and I don’t blink. And I know because it’s clear. And it was a complete answer. And it’s a complete sentence. I don’t need to give fucking excuses. I don’t need to tell you that I got my kids, I don’t need to tell you that I’m, we’re all busy. Okay, my answer is no. And then let let that sit just like you have to sit in the discomfort of not being able to fix you have to sit in the discomfort that they might be and probably will be upset. And think what I wish that person they should do something that I want them to do. My biggest thing is that someone will think I’m not working hard enough. Like that I’m not giving enough and it’s like, we have I mean, we’re juggling a lot of different work projects. We have a schedule that we create, right and one of my many you know life coaches that I follow and pay the subscription fees for until the business manager sees what they are and asks me. They say when you’re doing your schedule, you must put your workouts, your meditation, your lunch for yourself come on first. And then the rest of it goes on, because if you allow yourself to work in to the schedule that everyone else is set, you will find there is no room for those things. So that was the one thing I did do, which is I basically said, I’m going to go to this one workout class every day, at 11:30, 10 minutes from my house every day at 11:30 I’m there, because otherwise it’s not going to happen. But that meant that means I got to knock off that work session at 11:15, 11:10. And that’s got to be okay, otherwise, what’s more important than your health, nothing, right, but I’ll make it last.


June Diane Raphael  40:38

And then do bad work. That’s the other thing when you resent anything, you do a bad job. And I do think like, just just to, you know, stay on this for a second, I do think there is something you know, where I’m not saying it’s easy for me to write these emails and to say, like, I there’s a party, and it’s like, oh, they’re gonna think I’m such a fucking bitch. But I do think there’s some, there’s a wording of thank you so much for thinking of me. I am not going to be able to do this wishing you the very best said.


Jessica St. Clair  41:18

That’s right yes, that’s respectful said, I rarely had a pushback from that.


June Diane Raphael  41:23

You ain’t gonna find one because it’s like. And what I find that women do quite a bit is we talk about all of the other things that are going on, and the reasons why we give to not be able to do something. And I don’t think we should. So yeah, you’re it’s an A.


Jessica St. Clair  41:44

You said, I don’t have the bandwidth for this. That means like, that’s a lot of things. But that literally means I don’t have the space.


June Diane Raphael  41:52

Okay, but here’s the truth, though. Jess, I said that in my crazy, I got off track with that. What I’m suggesting actually is earlier, I don’t even have to say to you, oh, I would do it if I did have the bandwidth because they might come back to you. And say you’ve got the bandwidth now? If you know in your heart of hearts, I don’t want to do this. This isn’t interesting to me. And I don’t have the bandwidth for it. Like if you want to do it and you just don’t have time that’s another email but if you’re just like this is a no in my body and soul this is a no a you don’t have to bring up bandwidth you have to bring up shit.


Jessica St. Clair  42:28

Yeah, it’s not a fuck yes it’s a no.


June Diane Raphael  42:31

It’s a no, listen.


Jessica St. Clair  42:35

Staring at me with those pesky eyes lights.


June Diane Raphael  42:38

God, you get so intense on this.


Jessica St. Clair  42:40

So glad this isn’t a visual medium Deep Divers, because for those of you who struggle with boundaries, it’s very uncomfortable.


June Diane Raphael  42:47

It’s a no.


Jessica St. Clair  42:50

I know of an actor who everybody listening to this would think that they wanted to have sex with this person. But what they would do is their intensity was so much that when you’re having sex with them, they never break eye contact ever. And then the moment you’re done having sex, they want to do it again.


June Diane Raphael  43:12

Wait, is this real? This is.


Jessica St. Clair  43:14

Yes, this is a person who I’m telling you if I cannot reveal who it is, but our mutual friend wound their way into some sort of entanglement. And they said it was like we were in a movie, but not in a good way. Because the close up was always on his eyes. And that who didn’t never look away, that’s a chance once to do that once is one thing to do it a four times and also never could never be in a normal location. It had to be like, on the kitchen counter, then it’s on the floor. Then it’s like it’s like I’m being bent back over a grand piano. You know, it was like so you know, and we all think that’s something we want.


June Diane Raphael  43:59

Not that maybe the reality is a little bit different.


Jessica St. Clair  44:02

Turning to people having sex that we don’t know. Did you see Travis and Taylor reunite after the treat after the Chiefs game?


June Diane Raphael  44:13

Not going to hear it. You’re not going to want to hear this for me right now. I have a very distressing update.


Jessica St. Clair  44:18

No, no, no, what? No. He said I love you sweetie. She said I’ve never been more proud of anyone ever he he cradles her like a baby bird. What could you possibly say that would destroy my fantasy right now think about it.


June Diane Raphael  44:39

I before you hurt me. I’m not gonna I’m I don’t want to hurt you right now actually.


Jessica St. Clair  44:43

Just say I’m gonna, I’m actually invested in the football piece of it.


Jessica St. Clair  44:49

Oh, Boo boo to you, so and I.


Jessica St. Clair  44:53

You, so she makes him better, you don’t.


June Diane Raphael  44:58

Listen, it’s not even a about that it’s just I am finding the Kansas City Chiefs. The amount of play that Patrick mahomes or quarterback is getting the number of commercial season. It’s like I can’t I I’m feeling a bit over it’s it’s there’s an overexposure for me. And I am invested in the Super Bowl. I am an AI but I feel I wanted more of a, and kids are just amazing they deserve to be there, I’m not saying they don’t, but I wanted more of a surprise story asleep are hit. And they are going to the Super Bowl and I’m happy but like it just wasn’t I wanted something else.


Jessica St. Clair  45:44

This is the notebook, they’re going to end up together. The only thing I was concerned about sheets had to go to the Super Bowl for that to happen.


June Diane Raphael  45:52

The only thing I was concerned about, I watched their reuniting in real time because again, I was watching the game. Okay, I watched them reunite after that game this past Sunday on the field. And I saw the kiss and I saw the hug and I saw all of it. But then I saw something I wish I could unsee.


Jessica St. Clair  46:13

What? her hair being that curly?


June Diane Raphael  46:18

No, in fact that and her color of blonde I’m so interested in.


Jessica St. Clair  46:24

Well, you know, it’s natural.


June Diane Raphael  46:27

I didn’t know that.


Jessica St. Clair  46:28

She came to my colorist once because somebody had convinced her to diet and my colorist told her tracing Cunningham said don’t ever let this, don’t ever let anyone touch your hair color, it’s perfect, that’s hers.


June Diane Raphael  46:42

That’s so interesting because it’s so perfect on her. Because it’s her and sometimes what’s so hard about being blonde as we constantly want to go blonder. And so I’ve admired her restraint.


Jessica St. Clair  46:54

Well she doesn’t have what we have, which is our natural color is cool because like applause if you snipped if you snipped a piece of hair off the back of a New York City rat, that’s what we’ve got working with naturally. And that’s true. So don’t tell me that’s not true.


June Diane Raphael  47:10

Absolutely true.


Jessica St. Clair  47:11

If you took a sample if you compare it a sample of what comes on underneath our hair underneath the blonde and also a rat, you wouldn’t be able to know which is which.


June Diane Raphael  47:21

Yeah, that’s.


Jessica St. Clair  47:21

Not brown is not black, it’s not chestnut. Okay so we need that but Taylor doesn’t but okay, so.


June Diane Raphael  47:30

Okay, so just telling you.


Jessica St. Clair  47:32

What upset was too much of a Hollywood moment, the kiss and the in the cameras up close, and you got worried about.


June Diane Raphael  47:38

That’s all fine, what I saw was, and I know this is an audio medium and not a visual medium, but I saw as they were partying and he was going to go this one she was going to I saw her like, tap him on the shoulder hard. It was a hard, awkward tap.


Jessica St. Clair  47:59

She has a lot of pads on he can’t she has to get through the pads.


June Diane Raphael  48:04

It felt uncomfortable.


Jessica St. Clair  48:06

And I understand it.


June Diane Raphael  48:08

Jess, I don’t want to do it. I don’t know why I’m doing this to you. This is not appropriate.


Jessica St. Clair  48:13

To be honest with you. It’s the only thing I have right now that you’re pulling away from me. I know I was all I have are my books about Buddhism, and sand shifting under our feet. And then I have Travis and Taylor. And I have you know, I went like there’s not enough coverage as far as I’m concerned. Because I’m looking for angles. I’m looking for camera angles with studies.


Jessica St. Clair  48:33

You know, you’re never gonna see Eva Mendes and Gosling out and about there are there is a wonderful thing about couples who keep their relationship private and for whom we can’t see them touching each other. You know, we can’t do a deep dive on that but for me and my late night lullabies and that’s my lullaby is to Google them and close up and and consult people who can read lips what they’re saying where his hands are on the smaller for back.


June Diane Raphael  48:33

I’m actually watching the game. I’m seeing all the cuts to her in the booths. And I’m seeing all of the hoopla around it and I’m also watching the commercials because my son Sam is more interested in the commercials and actual TV programs, he loves commercials. So I can’t fast forward a single commercial I can’t pause anything, very odd, but there’s just been he’s in every commercial Patrick mahomes is in every commercial. And I’m just like slot for me.


June Diane Raphael  49:35

I also didn’t love and now I didn’t see the whole thing I had gone out for a snack and I come back in and I saw him like on the day is in the stands right after you know with the their streamers are going on. I saw him grab the mic and scream. You got to fight for your right to park, something like that and I just thought.


Jessica St. Clair  50:07

Well listen, as a former homecoming queen, I would hope that you understand that there’s a role you’re being asked to play and you gotta wave when they would need you to wave in that convertible. And that is the price you gotta pay and these they’re having fun, fun fun till the Daddy took her T bird away. Okay, and I am here for it. I hear for it.


June Diane Raphael  50:28

And Jess like, Super Bowl on February 11, are you gonna see it?


Jessica St. Clair  50:32

I hope I’m invited to your home.


June Diane Raphael  50:35

Of course. I mean, we will be watching you know.


Jessica St. Clair  50:39

Dan and I celebrate the Super Bowl as weirdly our anniversary it’s very strange. I make tacos it’s so weird. I don’t know why or when this started but like that’s we celebrate it like Valentine’s Day.


June Diane Raphael  50:54

What are you talking about?


Jessica St. Clair  50:56

It’s the only day I watch football and I don’t know why we must have had a great Super Bowl. We make the the Ortega taste of old El Paso. Hola delicious tacos a hard shell to.


June Diane Raphael  51:09

Have them like growing up. Yeah, no, Zach.


Jessica St. Clair  51:11

Hardshell tacos, if you take it out of the package, it immediately becomes stale with a second hitch there. Yeah, that’s what we do. It’s a very intimate viewing experience. […] Yeah, and BB and I watch when Dr. Dre and Snoop. Were the we’re the act. This was a couple years ago when we were hosted in LA. And we watched that as our psycho video slash song montage on our way to school. Well, that’s fun ya dadada. You know, is the motherfucking Snoop Dogg you know that’s how we get.


June Diane Raphael  51:48

Usher’s during the halftime show, but I’m again I’m I’m looking forward to the Superbowl of course I’ll watch it it’s a really fun day. I love watching football I enjoy those Sunday that Sunday experience I grew up in a house where my father watch football every you know the sound of football on a TV in a home to me is comfort.


Jessica St. Clair  52:10

It’s so Dad It’s such it’s bringing big dad energy and I love that.


June Diane Raphael  52:15

I just football a TV and that’s the soundtrack of my childhood. But I just want to ask you Jess, because I saw some photos of you on Night Court and I there’s one that I landed on that Dan posted I left so fucking card and to me it is quintessential Jessica St. Clair. I kind of want it to be your profile pic. You are in the carousel thing is the last one. You’re peeking around a door. Your peek here on a door like the cat who ate the Canary and your face just your face out in your hands. I was dying, laughing. […] who is this character on my court date you play? Oh.


Jessica St. Clair  53:02

Well, the great thing about having best friends who work in this business is then they write you apart and you don’t have to get it off your talent, so Melissa Rao she plays you know, the judge iconic judge, she I play her her childhood best friend Heather, who is like a maniac now and like in and out of jail but she’s known when she was sick she fell into a gorilla pit so she’s known as baby Heather because she still has all her baby teeth.


June Diane Raphael  53:29

You know, I had my baby teeth for a long time.


Jessica St. Clair  53:31

I know you did. I drew from that experience, but it was like bring your best friend to work week and like we were so rude every time they would call cut, we were just waiting. We’re gonna be in your ambulances dressing room and then we’d be like download download download download back out again, you know, and it was like because we don’t get time as as working mothers to really get in there. So it was you know, I was dying of that deadly consumption during that week. So you’re what you’re seeing on screen is a lot of Sudafed, and a lot of different drugs mixed soon I was glaring. I wasn’t checking Tylenol, Sudafed music, X, all of it at the same time and a full fat coke. ood every couple of hours, pounding, pounding pounding coke back out there. So you’re gonna see a lot of fueled you know, chemical fueled performance.


June Diane Raphael  54:25

Okay, so the performance is brought to us by coke by Coca Cola was Goddamnit that picture just brought me so much joy. I was like, this is St. Claire at her finest. This is how this her peeking out like that I was dying, dying dead will have to post it. That picture for the Deep Divers. Jess, it’s just me and you today, but I mean, have a great week.


Jessica St. Clair  54:53

Ah, yeah, I mean, I just love seeing you. I have to say I was I’m so stressed out about the rest of this day. Coming it’s packed to the gills and I don’t have any energy.


June Diane Raphael  55:03

I know you barely find a time.


Jessica St. Clair  55:04

I don’t have any energy for any of what’s about to come at me but I have to tell you just to be able to sit and talk to you is just a solace and a bit of peace in my day and it’s going to count as my meditation.


June Diane Raphael  55:21

I love it putting on my two fingers. Settle down. Listen, see you next week Deep Divers, bye guys.


CREDITS  56:17

There’s more of The Deep Dive with Lemonada Premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content like our listener questions where we answer questions from you like when is the appropriate time to take down your Christmas tree? Lots of thoughts on that that you have to subscribe. To find out the answer. Send your questions to the deepdiveacademy@gmail.com And subscribe now and Apple podcasts. The DEEP DIVE is produced by Lemonada media Jessica St. Clair and June Diane Raphael. Our producers Ana Cecilia, our associate producer is Dani Matias and ours supervising producer is Jamela Zarha Williams our engineer is Johnny Vince Evans. Additional Lemonada support from Steve Nelson, Stephanie Wittels Wachs and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Special thanks to Anne Geddes for a cover art and Lennon Parham. For her sweet sweet vocals. The best way to support us is to rate and review. Follow The Deep Dive wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon music with your Prime membership.

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