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This week, Jess has to turn in a script by EOD, but when do we ever really stop the workday? June is confused to hear herself in the trailer for Jess and Casey’s new audiobook, The Art of Small Talk, since she was not officially interviewed. All will be revealed though, and together they practice active listening, maybe for the first time ever?



June Diane Raphael, Jessica St. Clair

Jessica St. Clair  02:16

Hi, I’m Jessica St. Clair.


June Diane Raphael  02:18

And I’m June Diane Raphael.


Jessica St. Clair  02:20

And this is The Deep Dive. We’re about to do what women have done for centuries we’re crowding around the fire with our generous hunches. We got babies hanging off our tits, and we’re going to share with you our fears.


June Diane Raphael  02:33

That’s right.


Jessica St. Clair  02:34

Our joys, our tips on how to stay alive.


June Diane Raphael  02:38

Now Jess, we’re heating a call that no one has made.


Jessica St. Clair  02:42

Not a soul but you’re invited to listen, absolutely because we make one promise and one promise only we will not Google a thing because frankly, we’re too damn tired. Please get ready to go on The Deep Dive.


June Diane Raphael  03:02

Hi, Jessica.


Jessica St. Clair  03:03

Hello, my friend June.


June Diane Raphael  03:05

Hello, dear Jessica. I just started a second ago by saying that, you know, we usually record in zoom and now we’re in a new we’re in a new platform. And I don’t care for the video settings and the lighting.


Jessica St. Clair  03:22

I am missing, I’m missing my Zoom filters because I’ve actually cranked mine up so high that I look like Barbara Walters.


June Diane Raphael  03:31

Yeah, I mean, I have crazy I am touching up appearance to touch up my appearance. I’m scrolling I’m toggling all the way to the right.


Jessica St. Clair  03:41

What’s actually is that you know, I have to say I get to look at your face but I also have to stare at Carl horn Bowers, like I don’t know two to three hours a day. And so we have a we have a competition around whose neck look looks worse. And like he was wearing a shawl neck sweater that looked like he was giving himself a double neck and then what’s unfortunate about the the screen the Zoom filters is that it gets down only till like halfway down the neck and so I’m 16 from half neck up and then it’s like the read which on Game of Thrones I’m aging like 1000 years from half neck down.


June Diane Raphael  04:24

Well this is the problem with filters like rarely do they take your whole body and you know this is like but we’re we’ve dropped into now this platform it’s like we are raw baby.


Jessica St. Clair  04:37

I know.


June Diane Raphael  04:42

And I haven’t messed with the settings like maybe there’s a way but boy boy, we are raw dog in it big time.


Jessica St. Clair  04:51

Raw dog energy in the house right?


June Diane Raphael  04:55

It’s like I’m looking at it every pore of skin to breath, seeing like, the biggest organ in the body. I’m just like skin skin. Should I just coloration for every record? Just so you know, I did I did right before it came on. And thank you for pushing a little bit later today. I feel like I’ve been shot out of a cannon for the last week just today. Like, I didn’t even you know, it’s 1:27 I haven’t like, washed my face yet.


Jessica St. Clair  05:32

Okay, so I just stay around here, I mean, I just go around here.


June Diane Raphael  05:37

Took a makeup wipe and like just did underneath to give you something.


Jessica St. Clair  05:42

It’s not much.


June Diane Raphael  05:43

But just know that I did actually touch up my appearance in person.


Jessica St. Clair  05:47

I’m not giving you as possible.


June Diane Raphael  05:49

I’m not giving you anything. Because today and I don’t know if you have sensed a disturbance in the force on the other side. But I have to deliver my script, I have to show my script with Carl today to the greater populace. And I’m really struggling and I have to tell you like I can’t breathe. I feel this this part for me is very hard. The perfection. Very people are surprised to hear that ADHD people are very perfectionist, because we see other parts of our lives are so wild. But we actually have an intense hyperfocus that comes on that almost makes it so like we cannot peel our eye balls away. And Lenin would have to like like my hands were in rigor mortis. She’d have to be like, we have to turn it […]


Jessica St. Clair  06:52

Look see? And I used to text her at 2am I’d wake up like the lunch should be this and she’s like she had to be like stop texting me like after 9:30, now you text me at 10:30 like your deepest darkest thoughts and I welcome that. But she had a lot of boundaries around that. But Carl and I are both anxious so I don’t know where this tonight’s gonna end. You know?


June Diane Raphael  07:16

Yeah, so you know, in the final we said, we said […]


Jessica St. Clair  07:23

Does […] means midnight? Are we like.


June Diane Raphael  07:25

It’s such a good question because it’s like nobody has an end of day anymore. Just a problem with like the culture we work in. It’s like there is no EOD. EOD is like the beginning of the next day.


Jessica St. Clair  07:37

Yeah basis like we’re what timezone are these people. Anyway, I you know, the other thing I’m struggling with is just and I’m sure our deep divers can relate. For the Tracy flicks among us, which I believe every woman has an inner Tracy Flick, I think we are tortured by our Tracy Flick selves. I don’t know if men have such a I think they can be a little more comfortable with wabi sabi. You know, we feel like we have to earn our keep, like 100 times more. And, but just feeling like something that you happen to like, and makes you laugh, and you’re proud of.


June Diane Raphael  08:18

Someone else laugh yeah. Oh, it’s it’s like I told Jess, I yeah.


Jessica St. Clair  08:24

You know, and Melissa Roush. I think I’ve said this, but she likened it to building a robot painstakingly building it yourself building it, and putting on putting on the final finishing touches in the buttons and wiring it so perfectly. And then watching it smashed, metaphor for this career.


June Diane Raphael  08:49

You know, I totally understand and it’s a very scary, the release, right is very scary. But you know, I really more and more, I’m like, our work is this getting paid for this project? Great, your work is in the work. And now it’s I’m saying this to say I need to hear myself but now it’s like, it’s not for you anymore.


Jessica St. Clair  09:18

Who is it for? Sport?


Jessica St. Clair  09:21

It’s still until you go back to it like the response I guess what I mean, like the responses not really any of our business. Isn’t it though our business.


Jessica St. Clair  09:38

Listen, but we do things you put them out into the world. We hope people think they’re funny. You know, we hope we’ll think they’re good and some people will and some people won’t. Some people won’t.


June Diane Raphael  09:50

I know, I wish I had you in better lighting saying that because it’s harsh. It’s harsh on top of Harvey.


Jessica St. Clair  09:57

I’m gonna see if I can turn […]


June Diane Raphael  09:59

It’s okay, it’s like a Halloween. It’s like it’s like a Halloween show.


Jessica St. Clair  10:03

Can you see a little better ,yeah. A little better.


June Diane Raphael  10:07

I’m gonna stay in here this is better for me. No deep divers you’ll see no I’m now in a pitch black closet like I don’t know. All I can see is Jessica, no I don’t know what to tell you I was actually watching that documentary, Quiet on set have you seen it on a.


Jessica St. Clair  10:21

No, just gotta see it, kind of see it.


June Diane Raphael  10:23

It it’s tough it’s tough. But it’s about you know child actors and specifically like Nickelodeon shows and Dan Schneider love about but sorry my cut that out.


Jessica St. Clair  10:46

Cut out the yard sorry your I had like let it out let it let it the the responses and you’re like cut out your okay, am I not entertaining you?


June Diane Raphael  10:58

Jess I’m not well today I had three margaritas last night, I don’t know what I was thinking I genuinely.


Jessica St. Clair  11:05

Where were you? I need three Margarita right now.


June Diane Raphael  11:09

A bad idea the wildest part as I went into this dinner at five.


Jessica St. Clair  11:13

Five o’clock ?


June Diane Raphael  11:14

Five o’clock that didn’t exactly give love and I was like oh I’m not drinking tonight like because the last time we got lunch we had like a four hour lunch together we just time together I love it, and I was like I’m just I’m not drinking tonight like that’s it I’m not doing and then like up there and you know chips it will chips the chips and yeah chips. You get chips and walk without a margarita?


Jessica St. Clair  11:43

Exactly. And you know what if EOD ever comes today if it does, I do have to feed baby at some point I’m still single parenting. I think I’m gonna go down to our little local Mexican restaurant and I’m gonna get myself a mark because they’re half price till surgeon happy hour that was part of the problem […] Little salt on the rim. And maybe that’s what gets me through.


June Diane Raphael  12:11

To EOD? That’ll get you to EOD pretty quick. Comes at you pretty fast, so I I’m excuse me for yawning I’m not well, I stayed up so late last night to my best work okay, but I coming as we.


Jessica St. Clair  12:32

Coming as we are.


June Diane Raphael  12:34

Right now this.


Jessica St. Clair  12:35

I’d love to know, I don’t care. I’d love to know from the deep divers what they do to combat this. I don’t know if it’s imposter syndrome. I don’t know if it’s like I was gonna say, God, are you still drunk?


June Diane Raphael  12:56

I was going to say that watching this Docu series, Quiet Onset made me so fucking mad. I watched it last night. I was so mad that I was I’ve never done I was literally holding my middle finger up to the TV like this. Like Paul Kimpton turning over and I was like, oh, like, fuck you. I was so it was all like putting my middle finger up at people’s faces on the TV. I was so fucking mad. And then I sort of, and then I like went down a rabbit hole with Amanda Bynes today on Tik Tok and what she’s up to. And I just was like, god dammit, this industry we are in Jessica is the burrito is brew. Cha the brutality. And I all of a sudden I had a moment today, this is what I wanted to share with you as you’re in this this this moment. I had a moment, even if I never work again to have survived.


Jessica St. Clair  14:02

Oh, yes.


June Diane Raphael  14:03

I was 24 and 44. That’s 20 years to have survived in this industry, for 20 years so far. Now, I’m not saying like everything’s been, you know, hunky dory all the time. But I would say I had probably been working on some level you paid your bill 26 on I was like really full time you know, not with other jobs. That’s something I’m we need to be very fucking proud of. Because this industry will eat you up and spit you out.


Jessica St. Clair  14:37

Yeah, my dad says that to me. I know you always ask if he’s proud of you. He really is and he says that to me. Every time I call it goes honey, I just I don’t know how you do it. I’m proud of you. […] And he told me the rockem sockem doll pop a pop back up.


June Diane Raphael  14:52

Jess, I don’t want to forget it 20 years we have and we have 20 years under our fucking belts.


Jessica St. Clair  14:59

Well, that’s where you have to go like we do as we enter our habitude. You know, say to ourselves, like, we have a vast breadth of knowledge that we are sharing, and people are lucky to have it. But it’s interesting how when anxiety creeps up, it goes like you forget all of your power. I know you and I do think it’s a female problem to have going like, I’m just gonna release or forget, forget, fuck it. Like, you’re lucky to have this fucking shit in your inbox, which is like you are you’re lucky.


June Diane Raphael  15:41

That’s right.


Jessica St. Clair  15:42

But that’s where I have to summon my June energy to have your comedic mind putting thought to paper. And Carl’s like to have those two brilliant minds offering something to the world who’ve made us laugh so fucking hard. Like a no, this is a gift. This is an offering. I know. But it’s hard because we always need to ask permission to do most of the things we have to do except for this, of course, because we’re by ourselves, but it’s like, we have to ask people’s permission to pay the bills daddy has to pay a bill to get us to be able to shoot it and be there and, and that feels that feels like a bad situation. But I guess we’re all in it because we all have to ask, you know, sell our where everybody is your, everybody selling.


June Diane Raphael  16:36

Everybody’s a little whore, you know? It’s true.


Jessica St. Clair  16:42

I dream the dream of dinnertime con […] life living.


June Diane Raphael  16:54

Everybody’s got a boss and like, you know, that’s fine.


Jessica St. Clair  16:58

And but how do we not lose our sense of power? That’s the that’s the rub. That’s the rub, and what is it? Is it thought work? Is it? Is it margaritas? I’m not quite sure. You know, or do you just push through it and it’s end of day comes? You know?


June Diane Raphael  17:16

I gotta tell you, my friend. I’m not going to name her because I don’t I don’t know if she would want me to share this because it’s about her daughter but I have a friend to who came up with this mantra for her daughter that I learned this weekend that really got me so good. Where her daughter’s really nervous about doing certain things and putting yourself out there. And her mom my friend said to her. Do it scared, I thought that that was so beautiful which is like we put such a judgment on feeling fear and it’s like no breathe through scared do it anyway do it scared. I was like that is a really powerful lesson of like, and you will do it scared and I will, we have done it scared about all.


Jessica St. Clair  18:04

The other things you’ve done scared had done most things. We don’t need to wait there’s nothing maybe that’s it is to go there’s nothing wrong with me that I feel terrified and factors it’s because if you don’t feel scared, you’re probably not pushing yourself to do anything interesting.


June Diane Raphael  18:22

And that’s just energy, it’s just energy.


Jessica St. Clair  18:25

Yeah, it’s just energy, exactly.


June Diane Raphael  18:26

Just energy, it’s just energy. Oh god it is just energy you know.


June Diane Raphael  22:12

Can’t even explain the feeling I’m having. And deep divers, please forgive us because we are we have to have banked a couple episodes of that you might you might see an overlap from last week. Because it’s only been a day since we […]


Jessica St. Clair  22:26

Find you I have so much to say. It’s not like I’m at a sec. And I was worried. I was like well we just recorded but now now we’ve we’ve had a lot going on.


June Diane Raphael  22:35

But Jess, like I am trying to imagine a world in which my family gets on a flight to spin ramps tomorrow at 7pm. Like I might I know, all of the things that need to be done between now and that moment feel so insurmountable. And so like, I can’t picture it. I can’t picture going I can’t get off the flight. I can’t picture another hotel. I can’t picture the I can’t see any of it, which is making me think like, are we meant to go? Isn’t the bag gonna happen? Like why can’t I see this future? And it’s because I’m like very nervous.


Jessica St. Clair  23:19

But you’ve never done it. You’ve never gone with the whole family to Europe, you have never crossed the pond with everybody. You know and and it’s exciting. It is and you will just get on the plane. And I remember dancing that to his little brother who he brought to Ireland right when he graduated to show him that there was a world outside of his fucked up family and that he could break out and break free. And he said to him sometimes you just get on the plane. And that trip was so life changing for both of them. And to Dan come home with a tattoo he regrets.


June Diane Raphael  24:01

Yeah, you no love. Not a tattoo.


Jessica St. Clair  24:04

Are you gonna regret the tattoo? Does he regret it’s like, like a trashy Irish, like, kill read, like, read, but that was better than the wolf. I think his little brother wanted them to get but but that’s it. We never regret a trip, even though we never regret falling in love or having a child or moving somewhere. Even if it leads to heartbreak.


June Diane Raphael  24:33

That’s true.


Jessica St. Clair  24:34

Don’t you don’t regret it. I never I’ve never regretted a trip I’ve taken ever in my life, never. Because the bad ones are interesting.


June Diane Raphael  24:43

1,000% I think it’s more just like that, like I just can’t imagine getting this together right now. But I guess it will all happen as it always does.


Jessica St. Clair  24:54

I will tell you yesterday so Julianne our nanny showed me something she found a target and just I have never seen like this I’m gonna see if I can link it. It because, you know, St.Clair’s, don’t check and now Raphael’s don’t check.


June Diane Raphael  25:10



June Diane Raphael  25:11

Okay, so we’re not checkin.


June Diane Raphael  25:15

Carry on course.


Jessica St. Clair  25:16

And there is a like vacuum sealed bag that they sell at target in the Travel section which doesn’t require a vacuum.


June Diane Raphael  25:26

What? Jessica what?


Jessica St. Clair  25:29

She showed us because I said how did you get stuff in here?


June Diane Raphael  25:33



Jessica St. Clair  25:35

And khazana asked her to help pack the meshes together so say I got seven I got seven alphas and I said wow, and she’s like well I’m vacuum sealing the they’re down their coats in this fleece.


June Diane Raphael  25:48



Jessica St. Clair  25:49

And then she shows me this bag and I said what in God’s name is that? And it’s pressed it like loses it instance two dimensional sheet this this I’m talking about a big fluffy jacket. This is life changing, and there’s no vacuum it goes in one way you seal it and then the air pops out the other way.


June Diane Raphael  26:09

But fuck you. […]


Jessica St. Clair  26:12

She is, I don’t understand it. And she said I bought extras. I’ll give some to you. I’m like yeah, I think you’ll take those.


June Diane Raphael  26:22



Jessica St. Clair  26:23

I don’t know I still don’t know. I don’t understand it you know, but it’s it’s happening. You got that you’ve got everything you know. Hey, thanks, you’ve got everything.


Jessica St. Clair  26:35

The let me ask you Jess, because I just saw the trailer just heard the trailer for your art of small talk, audiobook, with Casey Wilson.


Jessica St. Clair  26:43



June Diane Raphael  26:44

Now I just say that I’m featured in it. I don’t remember being interviewed.


Jessica St. Clair  26:49

No, well, we use the clips. You’re on the trailer audio from we used it from the podcast. We use your example. We used your example we didn’t we didn’t ask for clearance and I don’t think that signing anything any NDAs. No, we just couldn’t we just cut in that that example where you asked the person at the farmers market you told them you didn’t think you were going to be able to get back out there because we’d all be dead we use that as an example of bad smoke.


Jessica St. Clair  27:29

But then I but then I came back and I did a better version.


Jessica St. Clair  27:32

Unfortunately we did there that part we just paid time was limited it’s only an eight and a half hour book we did five I’m going to tell you though something about this book it’s you know, Casey that two ADHD people writing a book is really something not only for the two of them before their family and loved ones of which you are her part.


Jessica St. Clair  27:54

I’m ready to release my own like response book, Danielle Snyder and I could release a another audio book about the making of this audio.


Jessica St. Clair  28:06

Now you guys have said we’re not allowed to talk about it, celebrate it say that it’s good even though it’s very good. But yeah, the process to getting there was you know, it was half hazard. But I gotta tell you the product is fucking good. And we interviewed Amy Poehler, one of the best small talkers in the biz comes at small talk with such generosity of spirit. We interviewed Tony Hale, again, one of the best small talkers in the biz and such a love and Colin Quinn, who if you don’t, so he did an Off Broadway show called small talk. This guy gave me my first job. I was in his sketch show never saw the light of day. And I gotta tell you June, if you lit when you listen to Colin now again, did he do the do the interview on his cell phone on a busy New York street you can barely hear him. But he speaks the East Coast Small Talk language and it is hot. You don’t fall pocket in love with Colin Quinn, or what he says to do when you get on an elevator at night with a gentleman that you don’t want a small talk with what you are to do. Oh, that’s helpful, which is to look him in the fucking eye and not look down but look him in the eye and say I’m fine. Thanks. I mean, this shit is hot. It’s hot, hot, hot.


June Diane Raphael  29:40

I’m fine, thanks.


Jessica St. Clair  29:42

I’m fine, you just stare at them. He’s like, no, you got to show these pieces of shit. You fucking me in business if you’re trapped in an elevator with.


June Diane Raphael  29:50

Advice for women?


Jessica St. Clair  29:51

Oh, yes.


June Diane Raphael  29:53

I’m fine. Okay, I could stare at him.


Jessica St. Clair  29:56

Like yeah, yeah, you I mean this guy anyway it’s he’s it’s so good this this book is so good and then you know my dad is the it’s really one of our main interviews, is my dad and Casey of course developed a an attraction to my father so strange and you know uncomfortable talking about that it whether or not if they got married if I would have to call her mom, it’s so. Oh, I gotta tell you with listening back to it. And again I know we drove everyone nuts with our complaining but listening back I was like, I’ll tell you what a nothing makes me laugh like our friends. And that’s what we were just talking about. We’re so specific to each other and art sets of talking. And now we all talk the same which is bizarre. We’ve all crossed pollinated. I don’t know who where I begin and you end Casey begins Daniel. But boy, did they you guys make me laugh. You make me lol. I am lolling all day in fucking night with you guys.


June Diane Raphael  31:08

Well, I can’t wait to hear it. The trailer made me laugh very hard. Sure, I’ve no doubt that the book is just as funny. So that’s a very, very exciting, Jess.


Jessica St. Clair  31:20

Big deal, it is.


June Diane Raphael  31:22

The cover looks great.


Jessica St. Clair  31:23

The cover looks great. We’re going to be in matching blazers for most of our press, which I think is wonderful.


June Diane Raphael  31:29

Great idea.


Jessica St. Clair  31:32

And Paul Shears I know this is not to plug all of our things. But Paul’s book is coming out to which which I’m just I’m like really proud. I’m really proud of us. You know, so as much as we are doing it scared. We’re also doing it we create saying somehow it gets out.


June Diane Raphael  31:48

Got to got to I mean, we are you know, yeah, we’re generators. We’re hustlers. Like, that’s just we are hustlers.


Jessica St. Clair  31:56

See, we have Paul and Paul at the end. I don’t we can cut this out of this too personal. But did Paul have a certain hyperfocus that got that got crazy towards the end, because […]


June Diane Raphael  32:09

Going to come on, you’ll be hearing from Paul because I’m gonna I’m going to have a conversation with him about about the book a little closer to the release date but.


Jessica St. Clair  32:19

He had no it was a very as you know, it’s like a very, very intense process. But he has a different type of ADHD. I mean, like he’s very focused, but he’s incredibly organized. Yeah, he is so like, there’s no area of his life that falls away because it’s all very, very organized […] You think with some people with ADHD they overcorrect in the other way like it’s like, in such a hardcore way, you know? And it’s just also when it’s your life that’s going to a memoir is something very different. Because you were like, this is my my words of my life that your children will read and you’re not hiding. I find that so brief and wonderful. That’s why I love what I love reading memoirs, especially of my friends, but, you know, that’s a big deal. And it’s going to be printed on paper.  Oh, listen, I mean, it’s absolutely phenomenal. I can’t wait for everyone to read it. I, it’s my favorite book. I love it so much. It’s so good. And yes, it is so brave. And it’s so courageous. And I think for for those of us well, also, for a lot of like the head of this get made listeners, they’ve heard some tales of Paul’s childhood. And I think that you, I think there’s gonna be a lot for people to learn about him that they didn’t know. And it’s, it’s very hilarious and very beautiful. So that’s exciting to.


Jessica St. Clair  33:48

Be I was shocked to hear my voice in the trailer. I just didn’t know. Well, we I was like, when did I do? When did I know? They were interviewing? What did I do an interview out genuinely, like? Did I get it aligned?  I’m glad to know I didn’t actually because I started to feel crazy, Jess I was like, I’m glad I made it. But when I do that?


Jessica St. Clair  34:09

Yeah, we could have given you a heads up for sure. You know, you’re less.


June Diane Raphael  34:16

We could have given and heads up.


Jessica St. Clair  34:17

You know, of course oh say I’ve never seen Casey do small talk. And I’ve known her since she was 18. And you know, so it’s just a mere price. Well, of course, we’ll have Casey back on. You know, we’ll have the art of small talk part two, and maybe you can, you know, show us more of your skills that we love.


June Diane Raphael  34:34

I’m not saying that I’m any great shakes over here. I’m just like, God, did I miss something? But yeah, I’m excited. I’m so excited to hear it Jess.


Jessica St. Clair  34:46

Thank you.


June Diane Raphael  34:47

Hear it.


Jessica St. Clair  34:49

You’re gonna do it […]


June Diane Raphael  34:52

Can you read it? If you find it? Like, is it available?


Jessica St. Clair  34:57

No, no, you can only listen to it and what’s so wonderful about it is it’s opposed to reading a quote from Amy Poehler you hear her say it, because we interviewed. And you know, we recorded it, I made Casey do my crazy, crazy system, which takes a long, much longer time. And it’s probably what broke us. But you we improvised all of it and then transcribed it and then use that to write from and that’s so when you hear it, it’s really us talking about small talk, but we did you know, we must have recorded 30 hours of us talking about it.


June Diane Raphael  35:32

Oh, boy.


Jessica St. Clair  35:33

It’s wild, the systems I had.


June Diane Raphael  35:35

I didn’t know there was that much say.


Jessica St. Clair  35:37

Yeah, shocking. We could have gone on there could be a part two. It is crazy, it is like it is listening to the minds of insane people. And we reveal some very vulnerable things. Like how much we lie in our small talk like how every other word out of our mouths sometimes is a lie. Just to keep it going.


June Diane Raphael  35:57

Well, I think I told you, I think maybe we talked about this in the episode. But my friend Julia, who you know, great there was a talker. There was a gym in our town. She’s a good smell talker. She always when she’s getting massage. She requests to speak you know, she likes talking to she gets upset. Meanwhile, I go in to get a massage and I might I don’t I say up front. I don’t like to talk.


Jessica St. Clair  36:20

Did I tell you what just happened? And I want to get back to Julie, I was feeling so now. I probably had COVID and didn’t know it. But I was now I was feeling very low energy. And my friend Molly said she’s the one who had the bogeys attached to her. She said you want to go hit Burke Williams and I said, great. So we go down there. You know, I get a massage. And I go in and the woman says like, what do you want? I’m like, well, I really I just want you to focus on like my shoulders and my scalp. If anyone just like gave me a head rub for 45 minutes. That’d be great.


June Diane Raphael  36:51

I totally hear you and I’ve in feet.  Like you could just do my extreme buddies.


Jessica St. Clair  36:54

Yeah, that’s good. And I it’s because I have a headache she goes, you need deep tissue. And I was like, I don’t want that. That’s too hard and then she did it anyway. And knew she was doing it. And I said a couple that’s a little too hard. But then she farted in my face.


June Diane Raphael  37:16



Jessica St. Clair  37:18

In my face, pardon my face with.


June Diane Raphael  37:21

What the fuck, you should get your money back, what the fuck.


Jessica St. Clair  37:24

Apparently because.


June Diane Raphael  37:26

We’re your husband?


Jessica St. Clair  37:29

Yeah, it was like this. I’m really upset I’m really fucked, it was like […]  now, Molly’s husband is training to be a masu sexually, and he’s in school right now. And he said to me, actually, what she did was exactly correct.


June Diane Raphael  37:54

No, I don’t know anything about this, but no.


Jessica St. Clair  37:59

If your client farts or, if you do, if nobody says anything about it, then you are not to mention it. You are to keep going. And I just it’s a tricky area, it really is a tricky area. Because that really threw me and then afterwards, I was like, wow, that was hard. And she goes, I gave it to you anyway. The Deep Tissue I didn’t ask for.


June Diane Raphael  38:26

I, I find that to be a violation.


Jessica St. Clair  38:29

But I was more upset about that, and I were violated in many ways. You can’t control the things that come out of your out of your butt. I can show that I think I’ve shown that you will prove that what is true, what do you do? But if so, imagine this scenario, this is a choose your own adventure show up and then said I’m so sorry. And then if this is it […] And I’ve seen several older people do this. And it’s it’s surprising, but after you’ve heard it a number of times it is you do start to like, just roll with it. Like this is what it is. I’ve seen several older people fart and then go excuse me and move on.


June Diane Raphael  39:13

Or a pardon, you know, yeah.


Jessica St. Clair  39:15

Yeah, excuse me, it’s, it’s as though they’re burping. Like they let out a little bit or excuse me, and they’re moving on.


June Diane Raphael  39:17

As soon as they’re saying excuse me, they’re past it. It deserves you don’t have to say I’m sorry, because I don’t think you’re sorry. It’s just excuse me excuse that.


Jessica St. Clair  42:23

That’s right, we say I’m sorry that culture a lot more than we need to know you didn’t but you to say nothing. It’s hard, it didn’t linger it it kept a mystery. Was it the was it something that was being adjusted in terms of the bed? But I think when you know, you know.


June Diane Raphael  42:57

I think so too and the sound you just did? I don’t think there’s any mistaking it. Did it have an odor?


Jessica St. Clair  43:08

No, I don’t think so but again, I was putting good up because I think I was probably with COVID.


June Diane Raphael  43:18

Served her right back by spreading that virus around Jamie, you know tried to get over here too.


Jessica St. Clair  43:30

Oh, I didn’t know it. I didn’t know it. I wish I had thought about it.


June Diane Raphael  43:57

Mike remember this is about.


Jessica St. Clair  43:59

Julie, went to the gym.


June Diane Raphael  44:02

Jess, so Julie goes to the gym. And when we’re in high school and I was at the believe it was like the summer, summer between model we graduated and we were going to off to college and she was on a real workout kick going to the gym every day. And there was a woman in the beginning of the summer who was like hey, she’s like hi and she’s like you’re good friends with my daughter. It’s so good to see you in just the and, Julie loves.


Jessica St. Clair  44:33

Chit chat bull chat.


June Diane Raphael  44:35

Love small talk. Loves it.


Jessica St. Clair  44:39

Fell in love so hard.


June Diane Raphael  44:40

Yeah, and she was like oh my god, she lied. Oh my god, yes good to see you. You know, blah blah blah. Okay, have a great day, you too. Great to see you, bye. Well the next day that woman their again. Hi, now the lies have to get more and more convoluted. Okay, this goes on entire summer and it’s torturing Julie. She was trying to figure out who the fuck her daughter is like. It was complicated


Jessica St. Clair  45:18

Pictures of the mom and like on top of yearbook photos, trying to figure out.


June Diane Raphael  45:25

This point she’s like, I can’t tell her I don’t know her daughter.


Jessica St. Clair  45:29

Oh, no.


June Diane Raphael  45:31

And then at the very end of the summer, this woman shows up, and she’s got a sour look on her face. Jim’s marching up to Julian she goes, I know, you don’t know my daughter.


Jessica St. Clair  45:42

Oh, no.


June Diane Raphael  45:43

These are the energy vampires. We don’t need around.


Jessica St. Clair  45:46

Shame on her.


June Diane Raphael  45:47

I guess, but like, also, I could see her just being like, why did you keep up the ruse like, and I can’t remember Julie’s response. But I feel like she ran out of that gym and never went back because there was just no way out.


Jessica St. Clair  46:04

It’s the only I guess appropriate response, and, and as much as we say the lie, there are certain scenarios that you shouldn’t lie in. And that might have been one of them. But once you lie, you have to keep going. What can you do?


June Diane Raphael  46:17

Oh God, exhausting.


Jessica St. Clair  46:18

Yeah, enter the witness protection program. You know, we’ve all been there. We, we have all been there. I mean, yeah, but that’s why you know, and I meant that I got I don’t know why I want the record to be set so straight, but there are certain scenarios where I do a lot of small talk. I think you’re great at it. I really do, I think I had to use you for comedic fodder in the book. But I do think you’re very good at small talking I would be happy to bring you to New Hampshire I’ve seen you when we have to interact with people for business things for shoots, you know, and whatever, always saying hello, and nice to meet you.


June Diane Raphael  46:18

Seems like this, the bare minimum just like I’m not an animal, always say hello.


Jessica St. Clair  47:13

Some people are even bad at hello. You can’t underestimate it like some people are awkward with hellos, you know, you have to understand too that I feel that it is my responsibility. Everybody’s energy in a room is my responsibility. You know, I have to.


June Diane Raphael  47:33

That’s a lot of weight to carry.


Jessica St. Clair  47:35

It is but I carry it well, this is we all have roles to play in the society and keeping small talk up and, and Adam is important, now something I do though, something I do that I have been. I can’t say I’ve been trying to be aware of it, but I have not gotten better. If I get nervous, I talk too much. I talk way too much. And I can box out people who are in the room with me or with me, because I will focus only on that person who is making me nervous and like to the exclusion of other people. So I’m not very good at sitting in awkwardness at all in my own anxiety. I don’t know, so that so I can’t say that, I’m great at that, and I have to get better at it.


June Diane Raphael  48:25

So can I tell you and again, this isn’t talking this is more physical, and I don’t know if I have an audio book in me about this, maybe I do but I what I feel very in tune with, is the physical, the physical space, the physical realm.


Jessica St. Clair  48:41

That’s interesting, because I don’t know is that at all?


June Diane Raphael  48:43

Oh, it’s all lighting and how lighting is going to affect a group energy. How shapes of tables will impact a conversation? If I love being at a circle table, unless it’s too big, there are.


Jessica St. Clair  49:02

Well you’ve had to move us we’ve had to be many in restaurant many times because you say this doesn’t feel right. And Julie does that as well.


June Diane Raphael  49:09

Literally Julie and I move multiple times before we settle on a table multiple times. And we sit down and usually when we sit down we say to the waiter meter D like this is not going to be our final destination just uh you don’t serve us our drinks yet because and we won’t touch the silverware but like we have to feel this out for a second.


Jessica St. Clair  49:31

I watched you do this in Miami, and we we did switch I think twice at least. Then you had us crammed. And then I didn’t gather together, and I know , but I love her […]


June Diane Raphael  49:44

Like this is too tight. And I’m like I promise you you think it’s too tight. But if we were to go to a more spacious setting, which is like I remember those tables at Miami. I mean that restaurant was also closing down around us.


Jessica St. Clair  49:56

So that was a whole other story, it was a wonderful dinner.


June Diane Raphael  49:59

But we didn’t didn’t we have a great time. Didn’t we have laughs so I am very in touch. I know what you’re saying about feeling responsible for the group energy. I can feel that not necessarily with the gift of gab, but more with you know what? Well, you know, my big pet peeve is and we actually know someone who does this and it drives me fucking nuts is when you’re sort of in a little bit of a circle at a social gathering, and someone is outside of it. And the people in there or one person doesn’t realize that they are keeping them out of your body.


Jessica St. Clair  50:40

No, there’s nothing worse you have pivot like in like in basketball, you have to open up. And listen, you have to and I have had to let people in that I don’t want I’ve let had to consciously let the wrong ones in. You have that I will do that because the sight of someone outside that circle, not knowing if where their entry point is. I cannot spiritually emotionally mentally handle. Well you know, something we interviewed a an expert on. Introverts, she is an introvert herself. And she has a community of introverts, too, which of course, I asked what’s it like when you all get together? And she said, we don’t.


June Diane Raphael  51:30

That’s funny, Jess.


Jessica St. Clair  51:31

We don’t know, like, what’s your Hootenanny is all about. She’s like, we’ve never ever seen each other in person. But, but she was saying, and this speaks to what I was just talking about, she said. So we were speaking with her. And we asked her, we said something that wasn’t really a question was the statement. And she paused and was silent for what we felt like was like, eight, eight minutes. It was only like 17 seconds. And then we said, I’m so sorry, we have to stop like what were you thinking in that but she was like I was thinking of my response. And we thought we had said something that was weird or offended her or we don’t know we panicked. And she said the problem really is that for introverts, we do take longer to respond. But for extroverts, we think that the pauses are you being uncomfortable, so then we fill the pause to make it so you’re not uncomfortable, but really what we’re doing is boxing them out of conversation. So you would think asking someone a question, an insert an introverted question makes them uncomfortable, they actually welcome it, because that helps them come in to the conversation. It was really wild.


June Diane Raphael  52:47

I very much so relate to this. I’ve also been told I’m an incredibly slow speaker.


Jessica St. Clair  52:52

Well yes, you are but that’s also why people we hang on your every word because we don’t know when the next word is coming.


June Diane Raphael  52:59

Wow, now I’m like for for listeners for Deep Divers out there. After hearing this, like I’m gonna get even more comfortable with pauses. So what if this is a podcast? I know you come here to listen to talking. You might just be listening to silence subtribes. I’m gonna make you sit in silence. And we’re all going to think together about what we’re going to say. I’ll tell you, Jane Fonda does that to you ask her a question? And then you get an answer. That’s so long.


Jessica St. Clair  53:39

Powerful, powerful.


June Diane Raphael  53:44

Yeah, people say to take a breath in and out before you respond. I’ve never done that in my entire life. I mean, it’s just, I’ll never forget when Dan said, well, don’t you think before you say something, and I said to you, the concept was so crazy to me. Are we just taking it off the dome? Turns out No. Turns out people are thinking before they respond. And that she’s crazy to me.


Jessica St. Clair  54:25

I can see that it would be. I can understand that.


June Diane Raphael  54:32

Well, but you have to I mean, gosh, as I’m thinking about it, and speaking and thinking and speaking on my forum, what kind of world would we live in if we actually all thought and something I struggle with is of course I love the sound of my own voice. And I love to speak to so am I love to get my thoughts out. And I know the danger in also just say I want to add to the conversation because I think I want my voice to be heard in here. But sometimes it’s powerful to listen. Now I’ve had a couple of friends in my life. I’m trying to think if I can name any names, but who don’t seem to need to be.


Jessica St. Clair  55:17

Lennon Parham.


June Diane Raphael  55:18

Lennon a great example.


Jessica St. Clair  55:19

One of the world’s best listeners. But she’s also wildly funny. And insightful. So when she does speak, it’s always hilarious, but she’s happy to listen, take it all. And I’m not that happy to listen.


June Diane Raphael  55:41

I’m what I want to work on now, Jess is like, I want to listen to you right now for a little bit. I don’t you don’t want to have to think about what I’m gonna say next. And get excited to share my thoughts. While I’m trying to, like that’s very hard.


Jessica St. Clair  55:59

You want to hear something fucking wild that I’m never feeling something?


June Diane Raphael  56:02

Yes, it’s really weird.


Jessica St. Clair  56:04

So I’m so bad at listening, especially when somebody is in pain that I love. Like, it’s almost impossible for me to say, it’s like seeing a wounded animal.


June Diane Raphael  56:16

Though Jess, I think you’re beautiful listener.


Jessica St. Clair  56:20

I appreciate that. It’s very hard for me, though not to jump in and say like, what can I do to help you. But so what I’ve been trying to do, and this is how bad I am at at just being quiet is when somebody is talking who’s in pain, or maybe they’re saying something that’s painful to me. I breathe in and out. And just like in my meditation, I have a mantra. My mantra is, listen. Listen, listen, because what my coach told me is that when somebody when you think somebody’s done sharing when they’re sharing some painful thing, right? When you think they’re done, if you just wait, they’ll start talking again. So the only way to get myself to wait is I just sit there and I say listen to myself over and over again.


June Diane Raphael  57:18

Well, and again, I’m I want to listen to that. And I’m excited to share my thoughts.


Jessica St. Clair  57:22

Please, I’m done. You don’t have to do that a little bit longer.


June Diane Raphael  57:30

I remember hearing that, that that’s that’s an interview technique to which is usually very powerful. I think documentarians employ this quite a bit, which is, once a question is answered you wait. Because usually, they’ll fill up the space with something. And usually it’s going to be the thing that needs to be said. I mean, they always say to do that with kids to have like, what happened at school today? Why are you upset? And they tell you tell me more? Right? Tell me more. Right? Because it’s like, there’s always more. Listen, June, listen.


Jessica St. Clair  58:14

Well, like, how many things are we missing? Because we’re not letting someone talk more? You know?


June Diane Raphael  58:22

I’m sure a lot.


Jessica St. Clair  58:24

Right, or the other thing, Becky, you know, good inside parenting experts that he says is asking and I have used this is like when when your child has describing something that and I think this would probably work for adults too. This terrible thing happened to be on the playground. Okay, and what you do is you say now, where were you standing?


June Diane Raphael  58:47

You go into the trauma.


Jessica St. Clair  58:48

And where was the and she was wearing a red shirt too, and where you were by that bench, okay. And then what happened? And then and then you felt that, okay? Because what you’re doing is you’re placing yourself in that memory with them so that they’re not alone. And I think.


June Diane Raphael  59:08

That’s beautiful.


Jessica St. Clair  59:09

I you know, my best friend and I have been going back and forth. She’s in the midst of some just like intense parenting, you know, with with her parent, and of life stuff. And I do like to say like, now tell me what, what did the room look like? Where did you find that person? And what was that like? And then what did you do? You know, so because I can tell that like, she needs me to see it and feel it even though it’s so horrifying. I’m like, yeah, that’s all we really want is to feel not alone in our own brains.


June Diane Raphael  59:43

That’s true. That’s very true.


Jessica St. Clair  59:49

But you got to stop yapping for two seconds. You know, to hear where they are, where they’re at.


June Diane Raphael  59:56

Now we’ll say Jess, in the last couple of minutes, I’ve been listening to you yeah maybe for the first time ever. Maybe for the first time ever, and I like what I’m hearing.


Jessica St. Clair  1:00:20

But what are podcasts but us listening to each other? Stranger.


June Diane Raphael  1:00:25

We’re talking but others are listening. Very rarely are we listening turns out.


Jessica St. Clair  1:00:35

But we are to other podcasts friends, like.


June Diane Raphael  1:00:39

That’s, that’s really a beautiful thing. I mean I have anyone listen is it’s it’s profound. You know it’s profound. And I love my own podcast friends so and I won’t spend a minute without them. Not in a minute.


Jessica St. Clair  1:00:58

No, paying good money for some of my podcasts.


June Diane Raphael  1:01:02

Yeah, mine are lulling me to sleep. Minor but with me everywhere. I didn’t want to mention and I don’t know if you want to have him on as like just to do some bonus content for the book but for the audio book for artists Small Talk but I have really been struggling with bows small talk not to out him here. But his introductory Small Talk as he walks into the room to start my mani and pedi is always laugh. It is always a fact. That is usually like ripped from the headlines. But news I don’t know where he’s getting his news because I don’t ever hear these stories. But he says he today he opened with. Did you hear about that woman in Calabasas who was sexually assaulted, assaulted at her chiropractors?


Jessica St. Clair  1:02:02

Oh no. So it’s kind of dark news.


June Diane Raphael  1:02:06

Jess, it’s so dark.


Jessica St. Clair  1:02:08

See that?


June Diane Raphael  1:02:09

I didn’t hear about that. He said yeah, I just had a chiropractor’s. Cops were called. And I didn’t ask any follow up questions. I was hoping we could just move on, you know.


Jessica St. Clair  1:02:20

But he must be he likes to open.


June Diane Raphael  1:02:24

That’s an interesting open on shock shock.


Jessica St. Clair  1:02:28

Well, he must be listening to the radio or to a local news, you know, or he’s on a local news because the local news ain’t nothing but dark, you know, dark, dark, dark things.


June Diane Raphael  1:02:41

But it’s quite an opener. And that is hard to know.


Jessica St. Clair  1:02:47

Weather, give me any traffic.


June Diane Raphael  1:02:49

It’s so hard because I think what he must be confused by is then of course, when he starts the work. I put on Netflix for us and proceed to take us through like the most gruesome, you know, crime tales.


Jessica St. Clair  1:03:03

So maybe that’s what he’s offering you much like a you know, somebody like a pet would bring a bird and drop it on somebody’s zone. Yeah, maybe this is a gift for you.


June Diane Raphael  1:03:13

I’ve just put that together. I think I was just listening to myself, right.


Jessica St. Clair  1:03:19

Right, what and sometimes we can learn so many things from ourselves.


June Diane Raphael  1:03:26

Yeah. Wow, this is really don’t need to put him on blast, you know, but there are times where I’m like, bow just are settling.


Jessica St. Clair  1:03:38

Well, that’s one of our rules again, I don’t want to give away the milk for free but D, B, A, B don’t be a bummer. KIL keep it light. People don’t want to hear about it. Newsflash, everybody’s cat is dying. You know, we don’t want to hear about yours. Maybe we want to get into that 10 or 20 exchanges in but not the first two or three exchanges because that shuts people down makes people want to run away.


June Diane Raphael  1:04:06

Well, and it’s interesting because bows bows openers are never about himself. It’s always just like, did you hear can I tell you about this horrific event that’s happened?


Jessica St. Clair  1:04:22

Yeah, yeah, that’s you gotta be really careful with that one. You got to be careful with that one. That’s you can’t dabble too much in the dark arts. You know? You have to be careful you gotta stay safe out there.


June Diane Raphael  1:04:35

Oh my god, Jess. This is a strangest as it could be. I think this I think where we veered today. Also like I think the lighting had a lot to do with this not to take it back to the our new platform but like I know but.


Jessica St. Clair  1:04:48

You’ve also been freezing your your screen has been freezing and I’ve had desolate gaps.


June Diane Raphael  1:04:53

I said to your […]


Jessica St. Clair  1:04:54

I had I’ve been filling in the PDF over your face because it was frozen. I put an old script I put what is this big city greens, some audio recording I had to do I put over your face because I was like I can’t watch the freezing anymore.


June Diane Raphael  1:05:12

No, so we got some kinks to work out folks show we’re going to have to work those kinks out.


Jessica St. Clair  1:05:19

So if you guys felt some lags and some pauses don’t think it was just us listening to each other, we might have just lost contact with the recording.


June Diane Raphael  1:05:27

Yet those pauses were probably we’re probably speaking and not listening, but we just didn’t they didn’t translate.


Jessica St. Clair  1:05:34

Because I’m gonna say I feel I feel so much lighter. I feel like I can breathe. I feel like I’m centered in the idea of doing it scared. And so I really want to I want to thank your friend for coming up with that and I want to encourage our deep divers if they’re if they are putting themselves out there in any scary way to not expect yourself to feel anything less than terrified and to do it anyway.


June Diane Raphael  1:06:02

Do it anyway and do it scared. Deep divers we love you so much and we’ll see you next week, bye guys.


Jessica St. Clair  1:06:46

The Deep Dive is produced by Lemonada Media, Jessica St. Clair and June Diane Raphael. Special thanks to Anne Geddes for a cover art and Lennon Parham. For her sweet sweet vocals. The best way to support us is to rate and review. Follow The Deep Dive wherever you get your podcasts or listen to ad free on Amazon music with your Prime membership.


Jessica St. Clair  1:07:07

Students its headmistress, St. Clair and Headmistress, Raphael here, reporting from our desks at The Deep Dive Academy of significance and we would like you to join us admissions are open at the Academy. We are up to some pretty kooky stuff over here we have got lessons in the culinary arts. We have field trips, June, forced me to go on a three mile run lesson.


June Diane Raphael  1:07:35

And maybe most importantly, we have Friday happy hours.


Jessica St. Clair  1:07:38

Okay, at four we pour, we have been having the most fun drinking and interacting with our students and getting to know quite frankly, we are getting to know each and every one of our students intimately. And the thing I love the most about it June is the community and the cheerleading that is going on. We have women sharing their dating pics, they’re asking for opinions on their hinge profiles. I mean it is just so it’s so much fun and it’s exactly what makes women special, holding each other accountable and cheering each other on. If you would like to join, this is your this is your sign we have 25% off. If you use code LISTENER all caps just head to code LISTENER for 25% off. We will see you in the hallowed halls of the academy.

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