Juneteenth: Too Little, Too Late?
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Michael and Pele examine the NFL’s recent move to make Juneteenth a company holiday. Is it an honorable move? Is it too little, too late? They also talk to Frankie Shaw, actor, director, writer and creator of SMILF on Showtime, about anti-racism work and an episode of SMILF that holds special meaning for Pele.
Transcript
[00:31] Pele Bennett: Thanks for tuning into Mouthpeace. This episode will be first airing on June 18th, the day before Juneteenth, which apparently the NFL now wants to make a company holiday.
[00:41] Michael Bennett: And for all our listeners who don’t know about Juneteenth, it’s the day that the slaves in Texas found out that they were free. Which is really called Freedom Day, which is really kind of a fucked-up holiday. I mean, to find out that you’re being giving extra labor and now you’re free. But I guess June 19 is a powerful day because people were set free. Pele and I both grew up in Texas, so June 19th has always been a crazy holiday. People love having barbecues. I guess that the NFL is actually making it a holiday. I think they’re a little bit too late. It’s like, why now?
[01:26] Pele Bennett: That is the question. Now everyone wants to step up. Companies want to step up. People want to step up. They want to redirect everything they are doing to this movement. But the question is, is it real? Are they just doing it to show face? And then on our end, do we believe them, or are we looking with a bad heart?
[01:53] Michael Bennett: I’m thinking the NFL should also highlight Kwanzaa.
[02:05] Pele Bennett: There’s a few things that people could start implementing, especially to U.S. history, which is interesting is that you think about all the holidays that we have in the U.S. I have family everywhere, and so when we visit them or we talk to them, they highlight our holidays, they know of so much of our history. But then I think about us being in the U.S. celebrating these things, they’re kind of not.
[02:29] Michael Bennett: I think we’re not celebrating the way that they should be celebrated. I think like Christmas, we all kind of love Christmas because we get presents and it brings family together just like Thanksgiving. But I think Juneteenth is a segregated holiday for those people of color who experience something and other people don’t highlight it. So I guess it is a great step for them to start to highlight the injustice or the history of another culture within American societies. I think this is a great opportunity to highlight it. But what is the intent behind it? Is the intent to bring awareness of the historical context of African-Americans in the United States and what they went through, especially during Juneteenth, when everybody else was emancipated and they still had to continue working? Or is it just to, you know, to say, hey, we’re doing this just to show people that we care? I mean, I don’t know. I guess they’re kind of tied in. I was talking to my friend yesterday about anger and sadness, and how they’re connected. And I guess if they’re angry about was has happened, I guess highlighting it can bring a little bit of awareness and create a sense of empathy for the people who experienced it.
[03:48] Pele Bennett: I think both of them are still pain. Pain connects sadness and anger. And it hurts. And that’s why it’s so deep, you know, especially depending on what it is for that person, it can run so deep. So it’s not something that you can calm down or that you can stop crying.
[04:14] Michael Bennett: And I think that’s what we’re realizing in America at this moment, and I think all these companies are starting to try to come around to understand that there’s a lot of anger that’s connected to sadness and trauma of people’s past in America. And I think those are slow, baby, not even baby steps. Support for the people who experienced it, that is a step.
[05:06] Pele Bennett: So, do you take it and go, or do you say, hold on, wait, no?
[05:11] Michael Bennett: I think it should be celebrated properly with historians coming into these places and informing the NFL, because to just to have the holiday, to just highlight the holiday, with no information and no historical connection to it, I think is just to a void a holiday at that point. It’s about making the connection so people can have an understanding of what other people experienced.
[05:35] Pele Bennett: When we think about Christmas, depending on what faith you have, your Christmas is different from someone else’s. Like in our family, we bring in the Christian part of it and we talk about that. Then it comes to Thanksgiving, and there is history within that here. That’s like real hardcore history that happened. But then some people bring that part of it or they just do what symbolizes that. And I think what’s important is that if they want to implement, you know, these companies are wanting to make this a holiday, it needs to be true to the history of it because it has never existed for us to have a holiday like this. But like you said, it can’t just be a black people holiday. Like this is a U.S. holiday, this is for everyone to honor that day and to bring awareness. There’s going to be people that just want to have a barbecue and they don’t know what the hell the day is about.
[07:52] Michael Bennett: If a business owner has black people over for — that would be super racist for businesses to be like, “our black employees, y’all got the day off. Whitey, you got to continue working.” Actually, that’s what the holiday should be.
[08:32] Pele Bennett: No, I don’t want to hear all these people saying, well, I’m a quarter black. My great great grandfather. I’m like, no, no, no.
[08:39] Michael Bennett: White people got to work a double shift to take the burden away. Black people had to work and extra year, so we’re gonna give black people the week off. I don’t know, I think Roger Goodell — I don’t want to deny another man’s journey to righteousness or a take away from their experience and their moral journey. But you do want to hold a mirror to let them see the reflection of the pain that they cause, you know, because we have to look back and wonder in hindsight, did we have to experience so much trauma? What if the NFL had stood up earlier, during all these other police altercations and violence? With the amount of followers that the NFL has, that amount of followers that the players have, what would have happened in our society? Now we look back four years later and we look at so much trauma and so much carnage, and now we’re trying to have peace during the war. The peace gotta be before the war so we don’t have to experience so much trauma. We could have found the way to really make a true impact. Now we’re just trying to be reactive and trying to heal these wounds with a band-aid. But some of these wounds are traumatic wounds that need surgery, therapy, they need time to heal.
[10:21] Pele Bennett: What are the companies and people doing behind their work? Because now it’s like if you don’t say something, then it’s looked down on. But then if you don’t mean it, then then maybe don’t do it. I would rather have somebody speak up and really want to, you know, use their platform for good and for impact than just put a band-aid on it.
[11:14] Michael Bennett: I guess that’s the intro to our show today. Why? Why are people speaking up? Why do white people care at this moment? Why is everything starting to turn? And today we have a guest from one of the most popular shows on Showtime, SMILF, Frankie Shaw. Her show is really inclusive. And we really want to hear her take on why now? She activating her social platform, waking up white America, waking up or her white friends to have an ear — not to take the mic, but to listen. I think that’s the thing that we think that she’s capturing at this moment.
[12:02] Michael Bennett: So today, we got Frankie Shaw on our podcast. I know she’s got a lot of other things she could be doing.
[12:11] Frankie Shaw: Happy to be here. Hello.
[12:14] Michael Bennett: You’re like a super creative person. You do so many creative things. A film director, a writer, actor, producer, creator. You do all kinds of stuff. And I’m looking at your house, there’s color all around. How do you balance all that creativity?
[12:35] Frankie Shaw: I don’t know if I’m, like, totally conscious of it, but I do feel like I’m my most connected and most in my body when I am like in the flow of creativity. I used to play basketball and I know there’s a lot of talk with athletics, like being in the flow. And I can find that when I’m like on a set or something like that. I mean, it’s hard to like actually get there. But I do find so much my presence of moment when I am being creative. When you’re playing football, do you find that?
[13:20] Michael Bennett: Yeah, that moment that you feel that calmness, but you still like a lot of hectic stuff around you, but for some reason you can find your yin. I think it happens a lot, especially like in the fourth quarter, like when the games are really hard and you’re so tired and everything seems so hectic and you have to be able to be so balanced to do everything and make all the right decisions. That’s when I feel like I’m the most creative on the field. Like let’s just make something happen now. You grew up in South Boston?
[13:54] Frankie Shaw: I grew up in sort of two places. South Boston and Brookline.
[13:58] Michael Bennett: A lot of things in Boston, there’s a lot of like historical things for African-American history there. Malcolm X was born there. When you go into those neighborhoods, there’s just so much history of the past that like being from the South, you really don’t hear about that history.
[14:30] Frankie Shaw: Yeah, it feels like I mean, hopefully Boston as a city will have a reckoning. There’s so much of this city from the founding white father lens. Especially the historical racial tension is so shameful. It’s like an icky feeling saying I’m from Boston. But hopefully there’s a better future for it, like all over the country right now.
[15:22] Michael Bennett: You talk about those boundaries in Boston, those racial boundaries. I think in the show that I really like with Rosie O’Donnell, I feel like you captured that with her, it’s like she’s almost like she’s not racist, but she’s kind of racist.
[15:40] Pele Bennett: Is she consciously or unconsciously racist?
[15:40] Frankie Shaw: I think it’s like the most common, just unconscious, just like this growing up and never having any sort of awakening. Like that’s what I was trying to show, at least the people from Boston, just like my understanding. It’s sort of like this idea that racism is black and white and not a system, you know? The attempt was to more be like, yes, she’s that low key, unconscious racist. But that it’s a very real thing, I mean, all over the place. But with Rosie for sure. My mom raised me in Brooklyn, which is this Jewish part of town, and my mom raised me Jewish, even though she’s Catholic from Southie. And even within my family that’s from Southie would be like Frankie, what it’s like growing up like a Jew? Like they don’t know they’re being racist, but it’s just unconscious.
[16:42] Michael Bennett: In America we’re kind of dealing with that right now. It’s so deeply rooted in so many different ways, it feels like in every type of fabric in America, there’s racism in some type of way. There’s this overt racism that you just can see every day and then the things behind the scenes.
[20:58] Michael Bennett: I was wondering when you did SMILF, was it to capture those different boundaries, because I noticed in one episode they kind of stood out to us a lot. It was particularly the one with the nannies. And the way that the episode was concurrent. everything was happening at one time, but everybody’s view was totally different. And you had and Pele was really happy you had —
[21:28] Michael Bennett: Oh, yeah. I had to say thank you for bringing out the Samoan woman on there, Sisa Grey. I’m Samoan. But to watch your show, to see her on there, I was like, oh, my God. And of course, that started conversation like with my sisters and family. They were like, we’ve never seen a Samoan on mainstream TV. And I think a lot of the outlets, through Polynesian connections, they were all, you know, sharing the story of her being on there. And also, I think that she was the first woman on mainstream TV to be speaking in Samoan on a series. So I just want to say thank you for bringing her on and highlighting that.
[22:09] Michael Bennett: Yeah. And so in that episode, it was like you brought in class and race into the system, is that right?
[22:18] Frankie Shaw: At first that episode idea sort of sprung from this book I read called Global Woman, which was about nannies, housekeepers and sex workers. And it’s a book I read maybe the year before, but I had like a thought of this episode. But it was like when I pitched it to the network, it was like too crazy of an episode to do in a first season when they were like, you have to establish the main characters. So I’d been wanting to do this episode for a while. So part of it was inspired by this book, just about how little female labor is appreciated or considered as work when there’s so many women of color raising white women’s children. And so part of that was, you know, because of that book and just like living in L.A. and seeing what I was seeing and then, you know, I grew up without money and then came into money when I started working. And so just like seeing the class divide and a class difference is so interesting to me. And then the Samoan character, you know, Sisa, actually, she came in and auditioned. And then once I saw her audition the character to her and that she could speak Samoan. And she’s such a talented actor. So that was where that came from.
[24:04] Michael Bennett: How do you see women’s voices being elevated? Do you think you hear a lot of things about women being shot by the police or things like that?
[24:18] Frankie Shaw: I was listening to Benjamin Crump, the attorney for George Floyd, the other day, and he was saying, like you all need to really say Breonna Taylor’s name. You got a call. You gotta just keep pushing that those guys get even arrested because so often he was saying it’s the women’s names that get forgotten about first. And it’s so incredible that this movement happened over this devastating tragedy. I mean, it’s so ironic, too, because the co-founders of the Black Lives Matter movement are these incredible black women — Patrice Cullors and Alicia Garza. Hopefully that’s changing. Kimberly Crenshaw, who coined the term intersectionality, she’s all over #sayhername and really getting out the names of all the women who’ve been killed. But I think it’s because the system that we’re in, this white supremacy system, which is racist and it’s like part of a patriarchy which is against women. A trans black woman’s life expectancy is 35 years old. It’s sort of like as a movement in this revolution that sadly us white folks are just getting on that train, but like, we have to protect the most vulnerable. And so that means protecting the black trans woman even while we’re going after the murderers of George Floyd and of black men. Would a national movement have caught on the way it did or got people’s attention if it was a woman? I don’t know. I don’t know. What do you guys think?
[26:40] Pele Bennett: I’m going to say no. No. With all of the different things changing, do we defund, do we reform? That’s the biggest issue and topic in conversation. And I think, like, as we think of that, I have seen articles and just kind of like thinking personally is that when the police are called for whatever the issue is, it doesn’t always need an officer. You know, like maybe you do need somebody that, you know is a psychology or someone that works in mental health. I feel like when we think about the financial support behind these, you know, reform or defund. It’s like, where does the money go? I feel like that could bring opportunity and jobs for other people that are in different mental health or just health in general that could be assisting an officer. I’m like, that’s genius. I’m like, we don’t need a male officer coming for something that maybe they are not trained or known to do. So maybe they have an outlet or resource that they can use that can help aid within that.
[27:43] Frankie Shaw: I think what the leaders of the Black Lives Matter movement are suggesting with defund the police is honestly like opening up our imaginations to a better world. And so what would it be like if we had social workers or mental health workers, you know, conflict mediators, nurses, like all of these different kinds of jobs that a police officer can’t do even if they weren’t racist, to do all of those things.
[28:15] Michael Bennett: This is a question I’ve asked Pele, too. Honestly, do we as people even know where peace even looks like? Do human beings even know how to live in peace or have harmony?
[28:26] Frankie Shaw: OK, I have one book called The Great Cosmic Mother. And it talks about a time before systems of oppression within like patriarchy and white supremacy, where it was a matrifocal society where the mother was the center. And there was harmony. Maybe a faint, far away distant memory in our, you know, cells as human beings where we’re like, oh, there might be something possible. But it has kind of been erased. That history has been erased. Because when you are in these oppressive systems, there’s always going to be the haves and the have-nots, and it’s going to cause so much suffering.
[29:15] Michael Bennett: There’s race and there’s capitalism. I think the root issue might be capitalism.
[29:27] Frankie Shaw: I know. I’m so with you. Like, is there a way that we can care for our most vulnerable members of the community, and that we can honor the work of the most disenfranchised, or the most sort of looked over, and really like, you know, the work of teachers and mothers. How can we build so we’re honoring that. And then so maybe I don’t know what it would be called. Maybe I’m not smart enough.
[30:02] Pele Bennett: It’s OK to say we don’t know. And I feel like some people are like, I have the answer. I know what to do. And I’m like, wait, we actually don’t know because it never existed. But I have a question. So we get this, and I wonder if you get this from white people, like white friends of ours, white colleagues, in the family, even. They’re asking us like, how do they speak up? How do they use their voice? How do they help out? What can they do? Are people asking you, like, what are you going to do now?
[30:38] Frankie Shaw: I feel like white people have to stop asking black people what to do, or people of color what to do. That message is out there, but needs to like fully get out there because there’s so many resources. You know, for the past while I’ve been part of this anti-racism group, which opened my heart and my mind to how much I didn’t know, because I really thought I was like one of the good white people. And then I realized that I was as complicit as anybody else. We can’t go to our black brothers and sisters and say, “Sorry! What do we do?” Like, there are resources. There’s a book and a workbook called Me and White Supremacy you can do. And there’s lots of stuff out there. But I do think part of it is like your internal work to learn your privilege and wake up to that. And then, like, learn all the little ways that you didn’t know that how you grew up or whatever. All that stuff to really do the investigation. Then there’s listening to the black women leaders and all the black leaders sort of leading this movement, but like listen to the black women. And then it’s just like you put your money where your mouth is.There was this article that Ta-Nehesi Coates wrote about reparations in The Atlantic a while ago. So then there’s also policy which is like what Ibram X. Kendi talks about, which I think is also really important. So it’s multifaceted. Once you learn about it, then you’re like, OK, these are the five things I need to look at. So now I have a plan of action. So you don’t have to go in like, you know, fill up your DMs of what I should do. It’s not that hard, these are the things. And I’m just at the beginning, I am not claiming to be an expert in any way, but I feel deeply passionate and committed to it.
[32:56] Michael Bennett: On your Instagram, you’re putting out a lot of different things, different outlets for people to read or just like listen and try to understand. I see you doing that on your social platforms.
[35:53] Frankie Shaw: I learned that in my position as a showrunner on SMILF, there were black writers who felt left out. And it was, oh my God, can I tell you the shame and the white fragility being like, “wait, that’s not ever what I meant. And that wasn’t what I did.” But if that’s how they felt, then that’s true. And so it really propelled me into learning and waking up a little bit, because even in my best intentions, all these things that I thought I was like, good. And like, oh, and I could fumble like that, I have to do better. So it was really coming from a place of personal experience. And so the Instagram, like, I’m not trying to center my experience or whatever, but I definitely want to help the white ladies get on it as much as I can.
[36:52] Michael Bennett: I feel like a lot of white people don’t really want to acknowledge that they had some hand up or something. They don’t want to they don’t want to admit they’re being white is actually a privilege in America. You literally can get away with things that other people can’t get away with. And I think a lot of times why people don’t want to believe that. They don’t want to look in the mirror and say that I’ve had some type of privilege in any type of way. They can acknowledge that and look in the mirror and say, yeah, my forefathers created a system where people like me have privilege in it. And I think until white people can really reconcile with that, I think it’s gonna be hard. And I think sometimes when you are acknowledging that you are privileged, you really look at yourself in the mirror or be like, damn, I thought I was doing right.
[37:54] Frankie Shaw: Yeah, exactly. I think it’s really hard to because as a white person, you’re taught only terrible people are racist. So it’s like black and white. But the truth is that you’re racist because you’re white. You’re racist because you grew up in this country.
[38:16] Michael Bennett: Like, “I didn’t say the N-word! I only said it in a rap song. I never said it in a derogatory way. I was listening to Nas and he said it right there.” Are you inspired by what’s happening to the world to put something out there?
[38:52] Frankie Shaw: Yeah, I mean, for sure. So I’m in the middle of writing something right now and I would say I’m definitely bringing in a lot of this stuff so that. We’re in the middle of this feeling like revolution, so I feel like part of my work is to be an activist, so your focus is divided a little bit. But I do feel like in the creative sphere, yeah, 100 percent. So it’s like in the writing and in the characters, yes. I’m working on this one project with this Latina writer and actress. And I’m so excited about this show. I’m just supervising her and helping her because she’s a newer writer. And so we talk all the time about this stuff and bringing it in. And then it’s also in policy. So, like, I have this little company called Our Lady Productions, and the woman who is my partner, this woman Jasmine Daghighian, and she’s Persian, and she’s now like taking a bunch of the stuff, the reading and making like an Our Lady anti-racist policy to just have no matter what, we have it, we have to abide by it, it’s now in writing. So it’s sort of like all different. But I’m also like I’m a white woman writing the script, so maybe bringing in other writers to write other episodes of this thing I’m writing. So it’s definitely passionate. But I’m also like, do I quit Hollywood and try to get a degree and just devote — I don’t know.
[40:42] No! Don’t stop writing because it’s important to have people out there that are white putting things out there about provocative. Things that are making people think, you know,
[40:57] Pele Bennett: We just started, so we still need you. It’s too soon, don’t leave!
[41:03] Michael Bennett: As a black kid, really early in your life when your parents start to tell you about real things that could happen to you. Especially being a young black boy, your parents tell you at five, “you can’t do this.” Like there’s like two different worlds.
[41:21] Frankie Shaw: I mean, I think you have to talk to your white kids as early as black parents are talking to their black kids. “Hey, Isaac, just so you know, you got crazy white privilege.” I made the mistake of being like, “do you know how messed up things are!?” And he, like, wants to tune me out because now he’s almost a teenager. So I have like I’m like, oh, shoot, I’m actually just like white noise to him. So I have to be like, “hey, hey, Isaac. Have you ever thought about when you walk into a space that it’s mostly white folks?” Instead of being like, you know, you know, just like down his throat about it where he’s like, “mom, stop!” I started early being like when he would draw stick figures like he’s a drawing soldiers, I’m like, “which one’s a woman?” I would annoy the shit out of him doing that. And then only recently I’ve been trying to have him just be more aware without making him go further away. You have to do it.
[42:51] Michael Bennett: Do you see hope, though? What makes this different is happening now?
[42:55] Frankie Shaw: I think the language seems different. I mean, I hope it’s more than just an Instagram moment. And I think on the streets you have like all sorts, different backgrounds coming together. Obviously I wasn’t around in ‘68 or in previous moments of unrest, but the leaders are saying that that’s different. So that feels good. And I think you feel people being more motivated from, like, their hearts. It’s like from the inside. Obviously you’re going to have people who are too afraid and just posting and not going to do the work. But I don’t know, it does seem like the numbers are growing and that more people are out there speaking the truth. What do you guys think?
[43:47] Pele Bennett: For me, it’s like I want to listen with a good heart and be like, oh, this person has good intentions. But then this evil side of me is are they really pure, you know, do they really have empathy? So I think I honestly battle that with, like, everything. But I’m just trying to figure out where we’re going. But I will say there are white people out there, too, that have stepped up. I think it is on a different level. You know, it goes to economics, goes to capitalism. It goes to other races, you know. I think so much has changed in the last two months that I am keeping hope. But I think we need to have our plans ready.
[44:23] Michael Bennett: Why this moment? Why? There are white and black people who have been saying stuff for a while. At what point as human beings do we acknowledge that’s somebody who’s human? When Roger Goodell says, I believe in Black Lives Matter, it’s like, well, how could you not believe in Black Lives Matter when you exploit black talent every single day? Without the black players there would be no NFL. So it’s like it just seems like a very contradictory.
[45:27] Frankie Shaw: Until the day money isn’t God — I guess only time will tell because I was just on this call right before talking to you guys, and this guy was talking about, you know, in the uprisings in the late ‘60s, Nixon implemented this sort of like vested interest in black capitalism. But because it was built on white supremacy capitalism, you know, it didn’t — like, you can’t build something on the same system. Which is why the radical elements of defund the police feel hopeful because if we’re changing where that money goes, then maybe there really is hope. I think time will tell if we can really accomplish that and the politicians care enough to do it. [
[46:26] Michael Bennett: I think this election is definitely going to be the election that kind of determines what America looks like moving forward. Trump was almost skating through. People were like, OK, yeah, is the economy is going up. But then came the Coronavirus. And now you have the racial tensions boiling over at a point that is in the streets now. If Trump is not out in 2020, like, I don’t know how people are going to react, they might burn down everything in America if Trump is reelected. You’ve got a president who is acknowledging racism in a way that is so overt and so in front of everybody.
[47:19] Pele Bennett: But it also has brought it out from out of the darkness to the light, very publicly. So now it’s not just, you know, hush-hush conversation. It’s like everyone knows this is out there. I’m not going to say thank you, but yes, something came out of this.
[47:33] Michael Bennett: What would you tell our listeners to look up?
[47:50] Frankie Shaw: If white people are out there, and you haven’t read certain books, I mean, you gotta read How to be an Anti-Racist. I mean, honestly, this book, White Fragility is like a really good foundation. It’s just like liberal white lady who was like, oh, wait, I grew up with racist conditioning. So You Want to Talk About Race, How to be an Anti-Racist, and White fragility are really good foundational books. And then it’s just like being like it’s OK to be uncomfortable and like to have uncomfortable conversations. Even if someone has rage, even if someone has anger, you just got to hold it as a white person. Because there’s been like 400 years of systemic oppression and violence and terror. But I don’t know, like, you just gotta do it if you want to be free yourself.
[48:54] Pele Bennett: Yes. Yes.
[48:55] Michael Bennett: And don’t forget to read Things That Make White People Uncomfortable. We get into a situation where you acknowledge where you talk about life and you talk about humanity and you talk about all these different things. Well, if you talk about those all those things, then bringing black lives up or bringing other people’s lives, that shouldn’t be an attack. And I think that is something here we really have to focus on going forward. The biggest asset on the planet is human beings. We’re the biggest assets to each other in every single way. We borrow from each other, language, even our food, culture. It’s just weird. Like people love Mexican food, but they don’t like Mexicans. It makes no sense. People like fried chicken, but they don’t like black people. White people, I want you to try to stop eating avocado this week. Stop eating everything that comes from a different culture.
[50:52] Pele Bennett: Thank you so much. Please don’t stop writing because we definitely want to hear your stories and we feel like you’re a voice that can keep those conversations and visuals alive.
[51:00] Frankie Shaw: Thank you for having me. I really appreciate the conversation.
[51:17] Michael Bennett: Please subscribe to us or like us on anything that you’re listening to. Apple, Stitcher, Spotify, whatever you’re listening to get away from your family, whoever you don’t want to be around. And make sure you rate us or give us a comment. Even though we don’t give a fuck about your comments, give us a comment. Mouthpeace is a production of Lemonada Media, which you can find online on all social platforms @LemonadaMedia. You can follow me on social media, @MosesBread72. I love bread, and biblically, I always thought I was Moses.
[51:47] Pele Bennett: And you can follow me on Instagram at @pelepels. Mouthpeace with Michael and Pele Bennet is executive produced by us, the Bennets. Mouthpeace is also executive produced by Stephanie Wittels Wachs and Jessica Cordova Kramer. And of course, the whole team at Lemonada Media. Our producer is Genevieve Garrity and our show is edited by Brian Castillo. Thank you to our ad sales and distribution partners at Westwood One, and to all of our sponsors for making this show possible. Thank you for listening.
