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Co-host of MSNBC’s The Weekend and former senior advisor to Vice President Harris Symone Sanders Townsend joins Sam for DNC week! Sam and Symone talk about how as kids they both hosted fake news shows, where she was when she heard President Biden was ending his campaign, why Symone had to make a pro/con list when deciding to leave the White House, being a risk-taker, and why voters like making history—and hopefully will again soon.

MSNBC will host MSNBC Live: Democracy 2024 on September 7, at the Brooklyn Academy of Music. It’s MSNBC’s inaugural audience-focused, live event featuring more than a dozen of your favorite hosts, including Rachel Maddow, Jen Psaki, Joy Reid, Symone and more. Tickets are available at https://www.msnbc.com/democracy2024.

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Transcript

SPEAKERS

Samantha Bee, Symone Sanders-Townsend

Samantha Bee  00:18

I feel hope today, and I wanted to tell you that as quickly as possible before it disappeared today, we are officially nominating Kamala Harris to be the Democratic nominee for president, capping off an insane summer and ushering in a season of joy that is actually penetrating a big, shrill heart for many of us whose lives are dominated by dim scrolling I don’t think we realized how much we were missing joy from our politics. Motivation can’t just come from being so scared by the alternative. Motivation can come and should come from believing in your side of things, believing in their causes, because they’re your causes too. I love voting. I even have a necklace that says vote that I can only wear occasionally. 2016 was the first time I was eligible to vote as a citizen of this country, and for that, I say I’m sorry. I don’t think it was all my fault, but maybe, but because I had lived here for so long without being able to vote, I take even more pride every time an election comes around, I get my little sticker. I try to get multiple stickers, but this year is going to be very special for me. It is my daughter’s first time voting, and I am so excited that she gets to vote in an election as exciting and as historic as this one as important.

 

Samantha Bee  03:18

This is Choice Words, I’m Samantha Bee, my guest today is a true powerhouse, Simone Sanders Townsend in 2016 she was the national press secretary for Bernie Sanders and later served as Deputy Assistant to President Biden and senior advisor and chief spokesperson to Vice President Kamala Harris. Now you can catch her co hosting the weekend on MSNBC, she made a point that I loved, that voters like making history. It’s exciting, and it compels people to participate in democracy. At least, I hope so. So take a listen and make good choices.

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  03:58

Greeting.

 

Samantha Bee  03:59

Hello.

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  04:00

How are you good?

 

Samantha Bee  04:02

Oh, thanks so much. I’m so excited to be talking to you. I feel like it’s a huge week in a huge month, in a huge year, in a huge election cycle, in a huge, huge, huge time.

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  04:17

We did not even know we were going to be here, like as I was telling someone just a couple of days ago, just think about what you thought this election was going to be on June 1, and realize where we are now, here in August and all the things that have happened, we don’t even know what’s going to happen before election day. There’s still the rest of August, there’s September, all of October we haven’t even hit an October surprise yet, so this is truly like.

 

Samantha Bee  04:46

Oh my goodness. Okay, so this episode is hitting squarely in the middle of the of the DNC week. So I just wondering which, which old wrestler is going to be giving the keynote address tonight.  I mean, take a guess. could be anything so excited?

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  05:05

I know vice president Harris pretty well. I don’t know if there is a wrestler she would select, knowing her, but you know, then again, the second gentleman might decide that, you know, he wants to throw a wrench in there. So who knows?

 

Samantha Bee  05:19

Okay, it could. And you know what? I’m just gonna hold a place in my heart, just for that. Okay, so this podcast, as you know, is all about choice, and I want to talk about big choices that you’ve made, things that you maybe knew were big choices at the time, that were big or things that you didn’t know were a big choice that, like, changed, kind of everything. But first I have to say that I did read that when you were growing up in Omaha, you would walk around and you had an alter ego. You had a newscaster Alter Ego whose name was Donna Burns.

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  05:56

I don’t know who Donna Burns was, where she came from. I don’t even know who she reported for. I don’t know who paid her, but yes, that was that was me.

 

Samantha Bee  06:06

That was you, and I just have to tell you that I used to have, I used to do a fake news show in my kitchen called news for goofs. So I feel like we were destined to be together.

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  06:16

Donna Burns worked for you. Now, now I know Donna burns reported for news, news for goose. It all makes sense now.

 

Samantha Bee  06:25

She was the she was the evening anchor. There we go news for goose, national network. I love her name. I think that is so oh my god, it’s amazing.

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  06:36

It’s so random, right? Like, I don’t know where Donna Burns came from. My mom said, just one day I started saying it now, a bunch of my family, friends, my mother’s friends, they still refer to me as Donna Burns, and even to this day, and I think it’s great, because now I don’t have to pretend to be Donna Burns. I literally just get to be Simone Sanders Townsend on MSNBC. But it is, it is, you know, it’s the things that we you talk about choices? when I chose to create Donna burns, I didn’t know that I would be doing what I’m doing right now, but that choice was important, I think for me, I got involved in politics young when I was an organization called Girls Inc, and one of the two of the key programs I did was a media literacy program where I learned to like write and edit and produce Uno and one of them was a program getting acclimated to the political process. It was called she votes. And it was through the she votes program that I first moved went to Washington, DC. It’s where I learned about how people get elected in the in this country, women in the political process. And it was that she votes program that got me interested in politics, and I wouldn’t have had, you know, my first career, as I like to say in politics, I think, without that program. So the choice that I made to get involved in Girls Inc, and the she votes program helped me find one of my careers which, who knew.

 

Samantha Bee  07:58

I think it’s so interesting when people put when you kind of like, unwittingly, you’re just interested in something, and you’re putting together the building blocks of your career, just without any knowledge. You’re just like, I love any poor side.

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  08:11

It’s just like, yeah, doing what we like.

 

Samantha Bee  08:12

Yeah, just doing what we like. There’s no pretense of like, one day I’m gonna get paid for this. It’s just like, this what I love.

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  08:19

Exactly, and I frankly, the ability to do what you love and also have that be your career and your job. In some respects, it’s a privilege, right? Because I know a lot of people that go to jobs, it’s not if they could choose, they would be doing something else, but the fact that I did for so long, and do now get to get paid for doing something that I am just passionate about, something that I would probably do, maybe not as much if I wasn’t getting paid, getting up at 530 now.

 

Samantha Bee  08:50

You know what? It might look a little different.

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  08:52

Might look a little different, little a couple less hits now, but it truly is. I couldn’t have dreamed this up any better. So it’s truly a blessing, and I think, a privilege and an honor.

 

Samantha Bee  09:02

Oh, wonderful. Do you? Are you like a person who are you a decisive choice maker in your life? Are you good at making decisions for yourself? Are you like, this is what I’m doing. This is what I’m going for. I know exactly what I’m doing. Or do you take what is your process like when you’ve got, like, a real big one coming up?

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  09:19

You know, this is a good question. I am a risk taker. Okay? I’d like to say that I am decisive, but then I make the decision, and then I’m like, Oh, well, what do you think? I think I’m gonna do this, but, you know, I think I’ve decided to do this. But what do you think? I just want your opinion, and I think I’m decisive, but I’m still like, let me hear what someone else has to say.

 

Samantha Bee  09:38

Who do you go to? Who are your to? Who are your go tos?

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  09:42

I might add, you know, my kitchen cabinet, if you will, I have a couple friends that I will consult. My good girlfriend, Maude. I’m like, you know, Maude, I’m thinking about this. And Maude is great because she’s really, she spent years, as in, like, the energy sector. I’d say she used to work with the oil company. She’s like, that’s not what I did, but it was, now she has a beauty company, and she works in the DEI space, and they do training models, and she’s like a she’s, I call her the Olivia Pope of beauty, but I go to Maude, and I often ask Maude, you know, this is what I’m thinking. And Maude doesn’t, obviously, she doesn’t work in TV. She didn’t come from politics. So she doesn’t necessarily have a vantage point on the specifics, but she’s a really good decision maker, and she gives really good feedback, and mod is very straightforward so I’ll tell her what I’m thinking. And she’s like, I don’t think you should do that. Okay, you do you, but I don’t think you should do it. I’ll ask my husband. His name is Sean, and he’s so funny because he’s just like, well, you’ve already decided what you want to do, so you’re actually not asking me for my opinion. And I’m like, sir, but I really would like to know, so I think in that respect, it’s kind of like it just depends on what it is. You know, when I was I think about some of the big decisions that I’ve made when I decided that it was my time to leave the White House, I didn’t ask anyone, did they think it was my time to go right because the people that I would have asked, like my mentors, they would have all told me, you need to stay, regardless of what I felt for myself. You know, I was just I was really burnt out, I was tired. I had been hopping on and off planes for like, three years straight because I went from the campaign to transition straight to the White House. And I was getting married the the next year, 2022 I got married, and I was just like, Hmm, do I want to be a grumpy cat on my way to planning this wedding, or do I want to be able to go to brunch and just exhale, you know? And it was a difficult decision for me, because I loved my job. I have great, you know, respect and love for the President and the Vice President, and so it wasn’t like I was having a really negative experience and I had to get out, but I was just, you know, I wasn’t necessarily the most pleasant person with these two phones and having to get up at all hours of the morning and night. So when I just, I made a decision for myself. I wrote things down and listen in two different columns about just what were the pros of me staying and what were the pros of me leaving, and then what were the cons of me staying and the cons of me leaving. And the biggest question I asked myself is, would I look back, you know, a year from then and be disappointed in myself that I didn’t take what would be the riskier decision? Because, to be clear, I knew I had a job at the White House, like that wasn’t the risky decision. The risky decision was leaving and not knowing what I was going to do, but leaving led me to then have a number of other conversations, that led me to our president at MSNBC, Rashida Jones, that led me to the job that I have right now. So had I not left, we wouldn’t even be chatting.

 

Samantha Bee  12:33

We would not even be talking. Or I would be trying to talk to you, but you would be like, no.

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  12:40

We are in the middle of planning a convention.

 

Samantha Bee  12:42

We do not have time to talk to you. That’s a really good example of a question you really kind of can’t ask other people, because only you can really know when it’s the right time to leave what seems to others to be a golden opportunity.

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  12:57

Exactly, and you know what in those instances, when you are when you when that is the decision you have to make. And you’ve made it for yourself. When you poll too many people, then you you get their per then it’s what they want, and not necessarily what you want. And so I was resolute in my decision to the point where, when I did start, you know, sharing my decision with others. There were some folks that said, No, I think. Are you sure? I think you need to stay. But I was resolute in what I believed. So I was unswayed by, you know, the decisions of others, which, frankly, Sam, you know, it made me think of this is might seem random, but it was why, when people were like, Joe Biden is going to change his mind. I’m like, Well, Joe Biden is resolute in not wanting to get out of the race, right? Like, I’m like, I can, Joe Biden has made his decision. There are other people that feel some kind of way, but Joe Biden is clear. And the difference between me and Joe Biden is probably why he’s the president and I am not, is that, you know, he’s a far better person than me, because Joe Biden was like, I’m going to do what’s good for the country, regardless of what I feel. And that brought us to the moment that Democrats and the entire world, frankly, are about to witness, which is the nomination of the first woman of color, the first woman of South Asian descent, to be the nominee of a major political party.

 

Samantha Bee  14:19

Where were you when you found out? Where were you? Do you remember ?

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  14:23

I was on my way to my mother in law’s house, yeah, and my I left the studio, and you know what I’d ask someone, I said, Do I need to leave this makeup on? Like, are we gonna hear anything from Joe Biden today? And when I called folks were like, no, it’s fine. I said, okay, great. And I took my makeup off. I got my car, I was driving to my mother in law’s house, and my one of our senior producers for our show, Brittany Ruff, called me and she said, I’m just making sure you saw the email. I’m like, what? Now? What? What email? I just want to […] And she said, Joe Biden dropped out I said, What? And my sister and my mother were in town. They were in the car because my husband had a huge work event, a part of celebration that you thing, and I’m like, what? And I’m like, telling my sister, I’m like, pull up, pull it up. And we get to my mother in law’s house, and I’m like, Joe Biden dropped out. She’s like, we heard, and then by the time I get into the house, it’s like, he endorsed. He endorsed the Vice President. I’m like, oh my god, I gotta go back to work. I said, get y’all stuff, I gotta go back, go back to work.

 

Samantha Bee  15:21

I gotta go turn this car around. I gotta get back in.

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  15:25

Literally, do not dilly dally, use the bathroom. If you gotta use the bathroom. We are getting back in the car.

 

Samantha Bee  15:30

This is, what a moment, right, a moment.

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  15:35

Right, and honestly, Sam, I mean, I was just kind of like, I read the whole thing, his whole letter, and I’m like, wow, that’s when I was like, Joe Biden is a good man. I mean, that’s the person that I know, you know. And there are lots of, as I think I’ve said before, there are lots of amazing politicians and elected officials and just brilliant leaders, but they are just some, sometimes everybody’s not a good person, yes, but Joe Biden, he is a good person, and to put the icing on the cake, he shut down any additional conversation, because that’s exactly what happened. He shut down additional conversation about an open convention by endorsing his Vice President. And I was just, I was reading it like, look at Joe Biden playing chess while some other people were playing checkers or badminton. I really think that if you would have told me again at the beginning of June that Kamala Harris would be the Democratic nominee, she would be literally like taking over Tiktok and all these social media with these positive memes, she’d be raising records amounts of cash and garnering crowds of 10, 12, 15,000 people, I would be like now I don’t really know if y’all are sure about what you’re talking about, but this moment that we are experiencing, I mean, really, if you looked at the polls, people said that we hoped we had different options, but we know we don’t have them, so if we don’t have them, this is what we’ll vote for, but I really wanted different options. And when you presented a different option from one of the major parties to the American people, they responded.

 

Samantha Bee  16:31

We’ll be right back after this.

 

Samantha Bee  19:48

I feel like the amount of psychic relief was just it is in the air, and it continues to be in the air as much as people are trying to, like kind of push this idea that it’s like a honeymoon period and the fever is gonna we’re in a fever dream. I’m like, you know what? Some honeymoons last.

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  20:08

Yeah, and let the people have their enthusiasm, I’m not shocked by the enthusiasm, because I have, I mean, obviously I used to work for the Vice President, and so since I have not worked for her, but had, you know, the show on MSNBC, we cover what happens in the White House, what happens in politics, what happens, you know, from politics to pop culture. So I have been following what she has been doing on the campaign trail, especially over the last year and a half. So I wasn’t surprised you know, the crowd, every time she goes somewhere, the crowds have been very receptive to her, right I remember, you remember the Tennessee three right after the three state legislative representatives were expelled from well, two were expelled, three, but there were three of them. I went down to interview the Tennessee three in Nashville, the day after two of the three were expelled. While I was there, I got wind that a special guest was also coming down, I found out it was vice president Harris. So she came down to surprise the crowd at this rally that they were doing, kind of across the way, if you will, from where we were going to do this interview. So I went to the, you know, I went to the rally, and I sat in the press area to just see, okay, let me see how she goes in this how she handles this moment. You know, this is an organic thing. They didn’t have time to plan and practice. They didn’t know last night that they were coming. They decided this morning. And the crowd was very, very receptive to her, very receptive afterwards. When we interviewed, when I interviewed the Tennessee three, they all talked about how important and impactful it was for the Vice President to come down how passionate she was, how helpful she was in their private conversations. And to me, that was a that was a moment, and when I saw that with my own two eyes, I’m like, okay, something is happening here, like she’s enjoying the work that she has to do, but she under also, she is also understanding in a way that I don’t think other people have realized the what her presence can do to shift and change the conversation. So when she became the nominee, and folks were just like, in a great way, I wasn’t surprised, because I’m like, oh, that’s what I saw in Nashville, and that’s what she has been doing over the campaign trail the last couple of months. But you know, people don’t usually pay attention to the Vice President, because any vice president, frankly, because their name is number two on the door, not number one.

 

Samantha Bee  22:26

I do feel like that. Kamala’s campaign is not centering the fact that she’d be the first woman president in the way that it was so central to Hillary’s campaign is that that’s feels intentional to me, right?

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  22:39

It feels intentional. And I think that’s correct. People do like to make history. I think in in general, like voters when, when there’s something to I think back to Obama and in 2008 was the first time I could, I could vote for a presidential I turned 18 in in 2000 when I turn 18, I turn 18 and 20 in 2007 at the end of the year I turned 18, so 2008 was my opportunity to cast my first ballot. And I remember the energy around that. And there were so many people who said, who liked the idea of making history, but also like these other things that Obama stood for so, you know, as I like to say, Sam, I don’t think the culture wars are a distraction. I actually think it’s the playbook, and it is the playbook for the Republican party apparatus, and I think the Republican party apparatus would love nothing more than for Democrats to come out and say Kamala Harris should be the next President of the United States, because she’s a woman, and because she’s a woman, she’s a history making woman, she’s a woman of color. And don’t you want to make history? Vote for Kamala Harris, and that, to me, does not give base voters, frankly, something to vote for. People who want they want to vote for the future. They want to vote for hope. They want something that is inspiring.

 

Samantha Bee  23:51

LikeLike a vision.

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  23:52

They want a vision that is not just about the candidate, but that is about them as the people in their lives and the voters. But I know the republican party apparatus, they’re like, oh, they wanted to have it because she a woman. They wanted she a woman. They wanted to have it because, that was one of the talking points. Yeah. So I think it’s smart what the campaign has done as position her yet not ignore the history that she would be making. Right? It is the history is not the reason to vote for the Harris Walls ticket.

 

Samantha Bee  24:16

It’s not so it’s not so easy to dismiss.

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  24:19

Exactly, it’s not as easy to just like, they’re giving you a whole policy platform. They’re giving you a vision, if you will, for the future. And to be clear, Donald Trump and JD Vance, they’re giving a vision for the future. You know, the vision has something against childless cat ladies. No offense to the cats, apparently, but offense to the childless ladies. And Donald Trump’s vision specifically, has a lot of retribution tied up into it. Um, it’s just not, it’s not hopeful. You know, I listened to his, um, his Elon Musk chit chat, on um X recently, and I was just like, where is the hope?

 

Samantha Bee  24:54

That’s really funny. Hope does not live here. I think is really kind of the subtext for the whole thing. And it really is very it’s a dystopian vision. It is like the upside down world.

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  25:04

Yeah, it harkens back to his first inaugural address. He talked about American carnage, and I feel like he is still there, like he never left warning of American carnage. And it’s just dark, dark vision. And frankly, I you know that appeals to some people, right is why the polls are close, is why this election will be close. But I think winning campaigns, winning campaigns, are campaigns that give folks something to hope for, something like a vision for the future. I talked to a lot of voters right after the debate, actually the first presidential debate between thing and Joe president, Biden and Donald Trump. We went to Butler County, Pennsylvania, and we talked to an intergenerational group of black women. And the younger women in the group that we talked to, they said they feel hopeless. And I was just like, oh no, this is not good. And you talk to people now and they’re excited, they feel hopeful for the future, they have this little twinkle in folks’ eyes, and I think that that is really important, not just for the Harris Walls campaign, but frankly, for the country, for the country.

 

Samantha Bee  26:10

I mean, my daughter’s voting for the first time this year, and I was like, you know, I mean, like, I’m not gonna tell you who to vote for. Do the right thing. I mean, it’s obvious, but, you know, it’s a whole different world. I mean, we watched the debate together and that fateful debate, and she was definitely like, what is happening right now? And now she feels, I can see that she’s like, bright eyed and bushy tailed, like we all are. We’re like, it’s.

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  26:36

Like, okay, I decided that this is your daughter’s first election, you know, I think of all the all the young people who their first election was in in 2020 and they had to vote in a pandemic, they missed the opportunity to, like, physically go to the polls. Get there, I voted sticker. And so this election, I think it’s also important to bring back just the community aspect, if you will, of the electoral process. Like, I love Election Day. I love early vote as well. But I just, I want to get my I voted sticker. I think it’s very important, too.

 

Samantha Bee  27:07

I want my sticker. I want to be in line. I want people to be playing music. I want it to feel, I want it to feel a bully on now, all of this said, like, all of this said, and we have to say this, though it’s going to be so hard the next few months. Can never rest. Nobody ever rests. We’re all everybody’s going to hit the streets. We’re all going to be like on 400 zooms a day, like knocking on doors. All of that is happening. It’s not like it’s a waltz.

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  27:36

Oh no, this is, I mean, I hearken back to the point that I made about while I believe that Donald Trump and JD Vance’s vision is dystopian and dark and cruel and does not, you know, invite people in. There are a number of people in this country that want what Donald Trump and JD Vance are selling, there are people that are still showing up to Donald Trump and JD Vance’s rallies when they have them. There are folks that are going to cast their ballot for Donald Trump and JD Vance this election, I believe is going to be close. It was close to last time, yeah, like, it was just about 12,000 votes in Georgia. That was the difference between Joe Biden winning Georgia, and that helped him become the president and Donald Trump, so I just, I know that people are excited about the crowds, but you know, I worked for Bernie Sanders in 2015 2016 I was his national press secretary. That’s my first national campaign. And I can tell you, honey, crowds don’t vote. Because if they did, Bernie Sanders would be, would have been the Democratic nominee in 2016.

 

Samantha Bee  28:32

Yes, and you know, you can’t vote on Tiktok. Like doesn’t matter how robust your Tiktok is.

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  28:37

No, we are not elevated to the point where people can cast their ballot from their bed on their smartphone. Okay, you have to get up and you have to request the mail in ballot and mail your ballot in and drop that thing off, or you need to physically go to the polls. So I think that the difference is going to be infrastructure matters here, Sam and I have been taking a look at the infrastructure of both the Harris walls campaign and the Trump campaign. And to be clear, Vice President Harris inherited the infrastructure that was that the Biden team, the Biden Harris campaign, built, and it’s robust like they are knocking doors. We recently spoke to the battleground states director, and he talked about that they had just for the first weekend in August, they had 129,000 people sign up for volunteer shifts.

 

Samantha Bee  28:39

I’m sorry, what?

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  28:51

I was just like, wait, can you say that again? Like the night guy in Spain, he talked about the doors that they were knocking the phone calls that were being made, that’s what when people sign up for volunteer shifts. That’s what they’re doing. And the number of offices that are open to all across the country, in these key battleground states, and I juxtapose that with what the Trump campaign and the Republican party apparatus is doing. And you know, Sam, they were closing some offices. They closed some outreach centers. The Trump campaign has opened up a couple different offices, you remember when the congressman from Florida who was saying, you know, slavery wasn’t all too you know, he wishes John Crow was back. He was doing a Trump campaign event, an office opening when he said those comments, you know, just very, very motivated.

 

Samantha Bee  30:14

Love it.

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  30:15

There are not as many offices, and the infrastructure is not as robust infrastructure. If Kamala Harris is successful in this election, it will be because she was able to rally the masses behind a vision for the future, and the infrastructure that the campaign had in place was there to support the rallying of those masses.

 

Samantha Bee  30:35

Right. do you what kind of interviews Do you think that Harris should be doing? I mean, other than doing like every single interview and being absolutely everywhere all at once. What are the what do you think are the key kind of stops she needs to make to get.

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  30:50

I think that obviously, you know, she should come talk to you.

 

Samantha Bee  30:55

[ … ] Other than us.

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  30:59

Yes, other than us, I think it is important that candidates are accessible to the media apparatus. When I worked for the Vice President, one of the things that I ensured that we did, and frankly, I had to, because, unlike the President, has what’s called a protective pool, and that just means that there are people that have to follow him around all the time. And the White House Correspondents Association, they put together, they facilitate a pool that is always with the President. And there are people that rotate in and out of the pool, and the President, you know, ever since I can remember, has always had a protective pool. Vice President doesn’t have that, okay? So, like, that’s why, when Joe Biden goes to church, there are reporters out there with him, not because the reporters want to be outside the church, okay, but because they are part of the pool that day, the vice president does not have a protective pool. And frankly, when the Biden Harris administration started, the White House Correspondents Association came to us and they asked for a protective pool. And I was like, no, because when you get a protective pool, you can’t undo it. You know, it’s not like, January 2021, it’s like, yeah, okay, we’ll take the protective pool this time, and then six months in, it’s like we are actually, we don’t want y’all to come to the farmers market. Okay, it doesn’t work like that. So you have to have the protective pool. So because she doesn’t have one, when I worked for her, it was very important that when reporters were getting on the plane, because they pay to be on the plane, and they didn’t, they’re choosing to be there, that they are getting something out of it, right? So if you’re just getting on the plane covering the event that everybody else can see on the White house.gov/live, and then leaving like, what is the what is the added editorial value? So I would ensure that the senior staff, and if there were any guests that were on the plane, would come back and speak to the reporters on the record, and then that the Vice President herself would likely, after her events, make sure she would go and speak to the reporters, either at the venue where she was or plain side, and that is important, and that allows them to get their questions answered. The Kamala Harris said, I know she has no problem answering questions and talking to the reporters that are traveling with her and doing local press. I think those are things that they should continue to do, talking plain side, talking to the local press, and then yes, large sit down interviews in 2016 48 hours after Secretary Clinton selected Senator Tim Kaine as her running mate. She and Senator Tim Kaine sat down for a joint interview in 2020 about 12 days after then candidate Biden selected then Senator Harris as his running mate. 12 days later, they sat down for a joint interview, so there’s no riot. So people that are like they haven’t done a joint interview, like, Honey this was a she didn’t even know she was gonna be the nominee. Like, what is happening here? So I think post convention we should see a joint interview, sit down with the vice president and her running mate, and then some more sit down interviews with just the Vice President and some of the high profile media. I would just say lastly that they also need to continue to do what they have been doing in terms of non traditional media, so some of the influencers or whatnot, but it’s really important to talk to the legacy press, if you will, and the media apparatus, because people are still watching television. I don’t care what the what the papers say. They are still watching TV. They are reading these outlets. And frankly, they deserve part of, part of the reason, frankly, that so quickly the narrative turned on President Biden was because he was not talking to the media apparatus, right? Just be frank, and because he had not been talking to the media apparatus consistently, it was very easy for people to, you know, flip that switch and say, Yeah, you know, he doesn’t do interviews like there was lots of speculation. So if the people aren’t talking to you, how are they supposed to know? So there’s a two pronged approach here, and I think it will be a mistake to continue what I the President did for a while, which is, not do press conferences, not do sit down interviews, but from my experience with the Vice President, she is always willing to, you know, to talk to folks. She just wants it to make sense. And frankly, I think that when she sits down for an interview, we need to have some policy prescriptions from her to ask about. And if she sat down for an interview, and she’s always, she’s like, Oh, I haven’t flushed out yet. Well, girl, why are you here.

 

Samantha Bee  34:59

Right, so let’s get it exactly.

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  35:03

I think they’re trying to time it to where they have the pieces, where she can adequately talk about in depth what her policy positions are, as opposed to giving a surface level conversation with a real reporter, which, frankly, I think would backfire on her, yeah, her campaign.

 

Samantha Bee  35:17

I think it’s good to, like, have milestone. So you’re like, you’ve the milestone of the DNC, once the, once the air clears, like, there’s going to be a lot of, I mean, obviously, like, we’re in that week now, as this airs, there’s excitement. It, you know, there’s like, a drum beat, it’s thrilling. And then you capitalize on that, and you keep, you keep being out there by doing more stuff.

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  35:38

Yeah, you know what the Vice President can call into the weekend first thing on Saturday, we’ll have her. She won’t call in. She can come, but we’ll take her on the phone. You know, chime in.

 

Samantha Bee  35:47

I mean, full slate, but we’ll make space, like whatever. You know, it’s fine, do you I will say that one of the things that I’m enjoying the most is that the press releases they’ve been putting out, whenever Trump or Vance do something like calling them weird, you know, it’s super authentic, but it’s also true, because they are so goddamn weird.

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  36:12

I did not know that weird would get under people’s skin. I’m gonna be honest. I said something to my husband, like, a week or two ago, and I was like, That’s just weird. He was mad at me for two days. I said, you know, you’re just gonna have to be throwing weird around, honey. It is problematic, and I think that weird just really got under JD Vance and Donald Trump’s skin. I also think, though that there is, there’s a balance that needs to be struck here. And while weird is absolutely accessible, I think it is accurate. Weird does not seem as serious, if you know what I mean. Like, it’s not just so, like, what they say is weird matters, because it’s not just weird that they want to be in your doctor’s office and tell your doctor what kind of health care you should be able to receive. It’s also dangerous, you know, like you women are literally dying, so where is the balance? And I think what we are seeing in real time is the campaign work out that balance. But the reminder, these are the same people that work for Joe Biden, like they didn’t get a whole new slate of like column people typing at the press releases, and so tone matters. I think sometimes in campaigns, the campaign staff and the tone, especially folks who are not the spokespeople, if you will, for the candidate, but sometimes the tone of the paper releases and whatnot can be a little more snarky, if you will, than what you will actually hear from the candidate. But you need, that balance, so I’m here for it, you know, drag them, but keep with just a little bit elevated, not believing going high and going low. You know, I love the Forever first lady. I believe when you go, when they go low, you gotta go toe to toe.

 

Samantha Bee  37:50

Toe to toe yeah, I like a little bit of, I like a little, I like a little hot sauce in my press release.

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  37:55

Exactly, paprika, actually, cayenne pepper. Paprika is just what for.

 

Samantha Bee  38:02

If you can get like spicy, you could get you can get like spicy Hungarian paprika, which is about, oh, that’s a hot sauce.

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  38:09

That is tough.

 

Samantha Bee  38:12

We’ll be right back after this.

 

Samantha Bee  38:21

I do feel like when you go out in the world, and I’m sure that you experience this, but when you go out and you actually like, just like, are living your life, and you talk to people in the world, the vision that is presented to them, like, I think about people who’ve been really captured by Fox News and truth social and all of that. And when you meet people, like, in a restaurant or a bar and they tell you that, like, they’re afraid what, like, I live in New York City, they’re like, Oh my god. New York City, hundreds of people are getting pushed in front of subway trains every single day. I’m like, stop. Like the vision, the portrait that is being painted for you of urban spaces, like of how other people live, is not accurate. We are living. We are like regular, normal people. We are in living in cities. We are thriving or, you know, there’s friction, there’s problems, just like anywhere though.

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  41:44

You know what? I think that everybody won’t always blame social media Sam, but I’m gonna also, I’m gonna say that we are so we as people are can so easily. You know other, our fellow you know neighbors, if you will, because our fellow humans, because we are not in relationship anymore. I think the pandemic also exacerbated this. You know, people are at home. They are not necessarily in their offices like they used to be. People are not going out with you know, people are much more secluded. And then when you throw so, when you throw the layer of social media on top of it, we literally get to self select what we are consuming, so that we are reinforcing only what it is that we think we know, only the things that we think we like. There are literally buttons on social media where you can click Hide all content like this. So we’re not seeing things that we do not like or want to see. We are self selecting when we obviously with our friends and whatnot. We are not people are not about the business of putting themselves in situations with folks that they may deem to be different than them in some way. So therefore, it’s very easy to believe that somebody who lives in this place that I’ve only ever seen on television or maybe only been to once, believes a certain kind of thing, because you don’t know anybody like that, and I think that what we have to be about the business is, which is why this is the point I made about community like, when you are going to stand in line to go vote, you don’t know who’s in front of you or behind you, and if the line is a little long, which, in most places in this country, it is long, which is another, you know, story, frankly, why the line so long as a form of voter suppression? If you’re in line for 25-30 minutes, you’re gonna get to know somebody like just putting yourself in spaces and places with people that you do not know does help break down the barriers. And I don’t have the answers for all of it, but I do think that we need to be more intentional about not othering one another. You know, like, I’m from North Omaha, Nebraska, when I tell people I’m from Nebraska, they always go, oh, well, I’m like, yes, there are black people in Nebraska. People in Nebraska, black people all over the country, honey. I grew up in a north Omaha, predominantly African American part of the city, but I went to all girls Catholic High School. And I went to Catholic school. Actually my entire schooling, in grade school, I went to a grade school that was like around the corner, but I went to all girls Catholic High School. I was a mercy girl, and there were maybe five girls of color in my class, and people who did not know anyone except for me and my sister that lived in North Omaha. And I think just that experience us being in a different environment and interacting like it’s it’s not, easy for me to other other, you know, other people, given my experience, the many experiences I had growing up, and, I just want people to know that, you know, everybody out there is not trying to do people harm just because they don’t agree with you 1,000%.

 

Samantha Bee  44:30

Like, if I can extrapolate from what you’re saying, I do feel like that. Feels like a very integral part of the weekend of your show is talking to people who you wouldn’t normally expect, like the, well, first of all, you co host the show with Michael Steele.

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  44:44

Yes, the former RNC chair.

 

Samantha Bee  44:46

Former RNC chair. So that alone. I mean, there have been so many former Republicans like them, like, who’ve just done, like, a 180.

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  44:54

You know? Michael Steele, he’ll tell you he’s still a Republican today like, I’m like, yes, you are, Mike, okay, there’s some time. I’m like, you know what? You are a Republican, and Alicia Menendez is our other co host, and we all bring different perspectives, and we don’t all agree on everything all the time, but we are starting the conversation, and I think more people need to start the conversation like there so many people will tell me, Oh, I love Michael still. I’m glad he’s not a Republican anymore. I’m like, y’all he’s still a Republican. Still is and it’s okay. You can still love him. You can still love Michael, still it’s fine, but just know he a Republican. He gonna let you know.

 

Samantha Bee  45:29

Well, okay, but you have the project 2025, guy on Kevin Roberts.

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  45:33

Kevin Roberts.

 

Samantha Bee  45:34

Tell me everything. I mean, how did you decide to give, to give him an opportunity to talk like, what was your thinking?

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  45:42

So Kevin Roberts had done a number of print interviews prior to our interview, and he notably did one with the Associated Press where he’s like, the left won’t be able to stop us. He was talking very specifically about their policy proposals. And this was at a time when project 2025, was not in the mainstream ethos, if you will, but we had been talking about it on the weekend since the inception of our show, and I remember we got on one of our pre show calls the week before, and I’m like, we should ask for Kevin Roberts. He’s talking to the Associated Press. He obviously would like to tell people what you know he’s doing, so let’s ask him. All they can do is tell us is no. And so we put in the request, and they came back and said he’d love to join. And when he sat down, it was so funny, because he came into the studio, and we’re like, he’s like, it’s good to see you. I’ve been waiting for this. And we’re like, well, we’re excited. Very lovely, you know, very upbeat.

 

Samantha Bee  46:36

Would you like a bottle of water? We have some snacks in the green room.

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  46:39

Would you like a brown mic or a black mic, sir, we also have a white mic, whatever you would like to go with your outfit. And when we talked amongst ourselves as hosts prior to that interview, the one thing we all agreed on was that Kevin Roberts is what I would classify as a true believer, meaning that prior to he was at the Heritage Foundation, he ran a very conservative Christian college, and he, like, while he was the president of that college, like, they didn’t take any federal funds, because he didn’t want federal money, because it came, some of the money would have came from, like, the Obama administration or something like that. Like, that’s how much of a true believer that he is, so because he’s a true believer, we could not spend our time in this interview trying to get him to debunk what it is that he was saying. That’s not why he was there, everybody’s talking about Project 2025, some people are saying that, you know, people on the left or liberals are fear mongering about it. Let’s let Kevin Roberts tell us, the president of the Heritage Foundation who is spearheading this project, will let him tell us, in his own words what this is. And if he says anything that is like, you know, like it’s questionable, we will fact check him and ask him to clarify, and that is how we decided we wanted to conduct the interview. And I think that’s what folks got. And so in the very beginning, we started by saying, you know, I read in the New York Times, sorry that you said that this is a plan that if Joe Biden wanted it, he would want him to implement it. It’s not a plan for Trump, it’s a plan for anybody that would like to implement it. But you don’t think Joe Biden would. He said, Thank you so much for that question. You know, I saw outside on the wall that it said truth and honesty. And that was truth and honesty. And then he went on to tell us that project 2025, was about institutionalizing Trumpism, and not just Trump, but any conservative, any Republican president, and they are well poised to be able to do that and I was just like, well, and then he kept going, and he kept saying the things and when, when it’s something like that, like, I don’t believe there were people that said we shouldn’t have, quote, unquote, platformed Kevin Roberts. But if everybody’s talking about Project 2025, and you got one set of people saying that some people are lying about it, another set of people saying, no, this is what he says. Why don’t we ask the people to put it together, let people see for themselves. And I believe that in this election, especially, it’s very important that people are able to see for themselves. So I don’t believe in, frankly, like de platforming, Donald Trump, but I do believe that he needs to be asked real questions by actual, you know, train people that will get the truth and not have chit chat with his friends on social media.

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  47:01

Have you been Are you feeling like you’re seeing a lot of the same mistakes made? Are you feel like you’re seeing a repeat of what are you seeing out there? Because I know what I’m.

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  49:21

You know, Sam, it’s like there have been some lessons learned, right? Like the NPR did a very extensive fact check after the fact of Donald Trump’s press conference. And the reporter that did the fact check his wife, who was also a reporter, she, I remember, she posted on the site, probably known as Twitter, and she, posted a link to it and said, My husband ignored me all weekend so he could produce this for you all. So here’s my sacrifice. And I thought that that was lovely, like the fact checks are after the fact are good. But then, you know, I was kind of concerned that, you know, the media apparatus signed up for a press conference where. The reporters in the room did not have microphones, therefore, the people who are watching at home could not hear the questions for themselves. that concerns me. I’m concerned if we are just going to play Donald Trump’s press conference like unfettered for an hour and then, you know, not cover what his opponent is doing on television live in a similar fashion, I’m concerned. I’m concerned if people are going to sit down and, you know, interview Donald Trump and, like, we don’t have, like, a, you know, just a fact check running somewhere on the side, honey, somewhere, somewhere there’s digital thing. So those kind of things concern me, Sam, but I, I do believe, I believe that the media apparatus as a whole does understand the gravity of this moment. I think as a whole, the media apparatus is struggling about how to effectively because Donald Trump has evaded almost every other system that’s supposed that is there for accountability, you know, the courts have not figured out how to deal with him. Okay? The political apparatus, they have not figured out how to deal with him. I mean, literally, like if they did, he wouldn’t be the nominee right now, and so the fourth estate is also, I still think, struggling with how to deal with him. At first, it was de platforming the man altogether. We just not gonna play him well. I think that that benefited Donald Trump, because the crazy was not on full display, like he doesn’t sound coherent sometimes to a point where I’m like, well, anybody else hearing this?

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  49:53

I don’t know. I can’t believe that people I actually do. I kind of am that person who’s like, how can you be undecided? Like, literally, how can you be a person who’s like, I’m still thinking about it, because every time he opens his mouth, I actually want to throw up.

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  51:44

The fractured media apparatus matters here. You know, when some of the craziest things that he would say on some of his rallies, even Fox News would cut away, and then the package that is produced that they show to the audience, and the way that the host on that network will talk about what Donald Trump and his running mate did, are in a way that would have you believe that it was just a regular run in the middle rally, honey, and everything was all right, so the fractured media environment here, I think, helps again, to the point where how we are all out here, self selecting, it is reinforcing only what it is that we think we know. And so, which is why, when main what will be referred to as like mainstream media outlets do make the decision to cover some of that, the things that Donald Trump says he then is held accountable for him. Remember his bloodless comment where he was a bloodbath, Donald Trump had to go do an interview three days later with his you know friends at Fox to say, that’s not what I meant. I met, blah, he would have never corrected himself otherwise. But it was being covered, and because it was being covered, and people were like what he said this, this is not he it was not good for him. Therefore he had to speak back up, and so think about if all of the things he was saying were covered in that manner, rigorously. But the problem is, he says so much crazy mess. It’s like we tired. Oh my gosh, I just can’t there’s too much you have to because he could be the next president United States of America.

 

Samantha Bee  53:10

Can I make a wish upon a star right now? Can you please moderate one of the debates? I swear to God, I just think that it should be you. I want it to be you.

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  53:24

Well, I do. I think for many reasons, it won’t be me. There there are some people, I think there’s some people you know, far ahead of me in that line, who have, you know, moderated more debates, but I’m happy to give my commentary after the fact.

 

Samantha Bee  53:35

No, you I just, oh, I just like, it would be perfect. It’s the perfect situation. Do you think that the debates happen?

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  53:44

I think that at least one debate happens. I think we see a debate on September 10, because the Harris campaign has committed to that debate. And I think the Vice President herself wants to have that opportunity, that contrast. I think Donald Trump does not want to be called a coward and cannot stomach sitting watching, you know, flipping through cable news or looking at any of the papers, and someone says he was scared of debating this lady over here, I don’t think it’s going to go well for Donald Trump. I think that Donald Trump should say, forgive people calling me a coward. I’m not going to do it, but I think that he is going to do it anyway, and when it when it happens, we’re going to see on full display the choice in this election. And I think it just might be so treacherous. I don’t know if we’ll see another one after that, as you think he’s gonna I would hope they do another because after that, allegedly, we NBC might get one. So we want to

 

Samantha Bee  54:32

Come on, just one more.

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  54:35

But I think, frankly, let me just say this about the debates. I think that, um, for all of the you know, the Democrats are like the Vice President will do as many debates as they ask all the debates. Let me just say this, okay, because I’ve prepped the vice president for a debate before. I was on her prep team when we did the vice presidential debate in 2020 I think that debates and debate prep, they take time for every single candidate, regardless of who you are. Maybe not Donald Trump, because he don’t practice. But candidates that want to do well debate prep takes time, and I think that it is not the best use of time for the Democrats, given that their candidate just got in the race, that she spends her time in a room in debate prep. And so therefore, if you agree to all these extra debates, and then you do not have the adequate prep to back them up, you folks could end up with a not good debate, not good debate night for the Democrats, and that will not bode well.

 

Samantha Bee  55:24

No, not permitted.

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  55:27

Not one, not one anymore.

 

Samantha Bee  55:30

No, we cannot have that.

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  55:31

Okay, we don’t want that because you done, had her out on the campaign trail and then doing this and that, and then three interviews, because they ain’t done no interviews, and now, oh, five minutes of debate prep. We just gonna do a debate, because Donald Trump is just so disastrous, he is a showman. If nothing else, he’ll do like to show up for the Kim.

 

Samantha Bee  55:49

We do not want him lurching around behind her in any […]

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  55:55

I mean, I just feel like, if he I would encourage anyone not to ever attempt to walk up on the Vice President of the United States of America, but especially while Kamala Harris is the vice president United States of America, because I just, I don’t think it’s gonna go.

 

Samantha Bee  56:12

Well, I don’t like that. This has been such a pleasure talking to you has been you were so loved ah joy. I just love what you do. I just think you’re just one of the greats. I really do.

 

Symone Sanders-Townsend  56:24

Thank you, Sam. I think you are hilarious, and I’ve just always loved you. So when they asked me, I was like, of course.

 

Samantha Bee  56:35

That was Symone Sanders-Townsend, and I had no choice but to look up one thing. She was the national press secretary for Bernie Sanders 2016 campaign when she was just 25 years old. Was she the youngest ever to have that job? Yes, it looks like she was at least for a campaign. The youngest White House press secretary was Ron Ziegler, who was 29 when he started working for President Nexon, well, there you go. Thanks for joining us. I’m Samantha Bee. See you next week for some more Choice Words.

 

CREDITS  57:19

Thank you for listening to Choice Words, which was created by and is hosted by me. The show is produced by […], with editing and additional producing by Josh Richmond. We are distributed by Lemonada Media, and you can find me @realsambee on X and Instagram, follow Choice Words wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon music with your Prime membership.