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All Podcasts Masks Off? Let’s Eat! (with Justin Sutherland)

Masks Off? Let’s Eat! (with Justin Sutherland)

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Description

On Dr. Bob’s last show, he calls up chef and restaurateur Justin Sutherland to hear about the state of the restaurant industry. Many places were able to survive by pivoting to takeout, but more than 10% closed their doors for good. They cover what Justin did to keep his restaurants afloat, what comfort foods they reached for this past year, and what COVID-related industry changes will stick around. Plus, some familiar voices thank Dr. Bob for his time guest hosting In the Bubble.

 

Follow Dr. Bob on Twitter @Bob_Wachter and check out In the Bubble’s Twitter account @inthebubblepod.

 

Find Justin Sutherland on Instagram and Facebook @chefjustinsutherland.

 

Keep up with Andy in D.C. on Twitter @ASlavitt and Instagram @andyslavitt.

 

In the Bubble is supported in part by listeners like you. Become a member, get exclusive bonus content, ask questions, and get discounted merch at https://lemonadamedia.com/inthebubble/.

 

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Check out these resources from today’s episode: 

 

 

To follow along with a transcript and/or take notes for friends and family, go to www.lemonadamedia.com/show/in-the-bubble shortly after the air date.

 

Stay up to date with us on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram at @LemonadaMedia. For additional resources, information, and a transcript of the episode, visit lemonadamedia.com.

Transcript

SPEAKERS

Dr. Bob Wachter, Justin Sutherland, Dr. Monica Gandhi, Paul Offit, Dr. Lucy McBride, Dr. Caitlin Rivers, Pres. Joe Biden, Katie Hafner

Pres. Joe Biden  00:00

When the pandemic hit, restaurant owners and operators were resilient, creative and generous, almost overnight restaurants put in place safety measures to protect their employees and to protect us. They stepped up to feed our frontline workers. They changed their menus. They transitioned to takeout and delivery, so they can be serving people depended on them. But when, but even with the changes, many had to furlough or lay off workers or close entirely. The restaurant I visited a day went from 55 employees to just 7, before it started to bounce back. Now as vaccinated Americans, customers are coming back, our vaccination progress and our economic recovery going hand in hand. As that happens, we want to make sure that our restaurants, bars and other dining establishment can staff back up, and they can come back as well.

Dr. Bob Wachter 

Welcome to IN THE BUBBLE. I’m Dr. Bob Wachter. That was President Joe Biden describing the Restaurant Revitalization Fund, which is part of the American Rescue Plan. He talks a little bit about how important the restaurant industry is to all of us. And it is one of the things that we may not have noticed as much as we should have before it pretty much went away. And that’s what we’re going to talk about today how COVID-19 impacted the restaurant industry and some of the lessons learned. But before we get there, I wanted to share a few observations with you since this will be my last official podcast as guest host on IN THE BUBBLE.

Dr. Bob Wachter 

I got a chance to speak to Andy Slavitt today, and he’s proud of what he and his colleagues have accomplished in Washington, particularly as it relates to vaccinations, but he’s ready to return to IN THE BUBBLE with all of you and so I will be handing over the microphone. Well, this last 16 months or so has been extraordinarily complex. And we find ourselves in yet another complicated moment, even as we head back toward normal, and we all grapple individually and collectively about what that means for each of us. We have to make a whole bunch of hard decisions.

Dr. Bob Wachter  02:23

Though, unfortunately, our world tends to polarize things into Black and White, right and wrong. Many of these calls that we’ve all had to make are really tough calls. They’re nuanced calls. And that’s really what this show has been about trying to provide you with the information, the insights from really smart, thoughtful people, so that we can all make the right decisions. The new tough call is the CDC guidance on indoor masking. When it came out last week, I could see where they were coming from.

Dr. Bob Wachter 

And I know that they’ve wanted to try to provide some incentive for people to get vaccinated and bring us even closer to normalcy. But to me, at least it seemed a little fast, the case rates still seem a little high. In most of the country, the vaccine rates are still a little low. And I’m not sure that we can count on everybody following the rules every particularly every unvaccinated person continuing to wear masks inside.

Dr. Bob Wachter 

Well, just to show how challenging and complicated this particular one is, and it’s only one of hundreds of issues that we’ve all grappled with over the past year. On Monday, just as I’m taping this, California, announced that they won’t be following the CDC recommendations, rather waiting until June 15, about a month from now, before relaxing the rules for indoor masking. Well, part of the reason I’ve been such a fan of this show from the very beginning is that it was and I hope remained during my tenure, a space for thoughtful, science-based compassionate conversations about this and scores of other really tricky issues related to the pandemic.

Dr. Bob Wachter  04:01

Sometimes we didn’t know the science, the science emerged, or evolved over times, things change. There were complicated political and ethical issues. And those were the kinds of things that IN THE BUBBLE took on. And it’s why it’s been such a joy and a privilege for me to have a chance to host this show. Andy told me that you, the audience, was fantastic, eager to learn the facts and the nuance capable of seeing all sides of hard issues, and caring not just about yourselves, but about your communities, your country and the world. And that turned out to be absolutely true when I stepped into Andy’s very large shoes, the feedback and support that I got from all of you was really really wonderful and gratifying.

Dr. Bob Wachter 

And since COVID has affected pretty much everything. The show has given us a license to talk about, just about everything here. From the restaurant industry to musical theater to politics to virology, and epidemiology, to aviation, to racial equity, to education, to India, to ultimately the key question whether it’s safe to go into a mosh pit during a concert, our guests have been brilliant and caring and fun. And I’ve had the wonderful chance to have my own questions answered by them. And I got a chance to know that few 100,000 of you were listening along, while these really smart, thoughtful people handled and tackled some of the most complex and nuanced issues that you can imagine.

Dr. Bob Wachter 

While we’ve had fun at times, we can’t forget about the lives have been lost and the lives that have been changed from people losing a friend or a family member, or folks who lost their jobs or kids who lost a year of school and socialization. It’s been a brutally hard year. And I tried to keep the tone that Andy kept, which is, we’re humans, we have to laugh when we can, but also mourn. And there is a lot to mourn about, as we think back on the past year. But there’s also a lot to give thanks for particularly for the vaccines, which were developed with remarkable speed, and at least in 2021, here in the United States have been distributed with great skill.

Dr. Bob Wachter  06:20

The number of deaths is just a staggering number, it’s hard to get your arms around to  we’re closing in on 600,000 people in the United States about the size of the city of Baltimore, or six, absolutely full University of Michigan stadiums or Rose bowls, it’s hard to even think about. But the scale is so large. On the other hand, the fact that we develop vaccines so fast and got them out so quickly, has also saved literally hundreds of 1000s of lives.

Dr. Bob Wachter 

Well, we can’t divorce ourselves from the politics and the federal response in 2020 was shameful. But it’s been great seeing what a competent and caring government taking on the problems of COVID looks like and that’s what we’ve seen this year. I and I think all of us can only wish we had such a government and such a response in 2020. So many lives would have been saved. But watching what the government can and should do and needs to do. If we ever find ourselves. In a situation like this, again, has been uplifting. And one of the people most responsible for the performance of our government this year has been Andy Slavitt.

Dr. Bob Wachter 

So I take some pride in the fact that I kept his seat warm while he was away and in doing so kept the show going. But I like to feel like we all play a little bit of a part in the work that Andy did in Washington, which saved so many lives. Well, as I said, Andy has reached the end of his tenure in the White House and as he had planned from the very beginning. We’ll be returning to the show in a few weeks. So this will be my last episode, as host, I hope I have a chance to come on, perhaps as guests in the future, and I will definitely be one of the listeners. In the next few weeks will rerun a few of the Greatest Hits episodes. While retooling for Andy coming back and taking the helm.

Dr. Bob Wachter  08:09

I really want to thank Andy for trusting me with his baby. thank the folks at Lemonada who put this podcast on. Kryssy and Alex and Ivan and Jess and Stephanie and all of the rest. Andy told me that they are a spectacular group, but he undersold them. They are both incredibly professional and really good at their jobs. And they also have amazing soul and they care deeply about getting it right. And mostly, I wanted to thank all of you for listening, stay with the show, I can guarantee that it will come back bigger and better than ever before with lots of new features and some surprises, given the different place that we now find ourselves in during the pandemic.

Dr. Bob Wachter 

So before I get too sentimental, let’s go ahead and get to today’s show. As I said, one of the industry’s most battered by the pandemic was the restaurant industry. Personally, I have generally limited myself to eating outside. Up until very recently, I had went to a recruiting dinner last Friday, here in San Francisco and the old line about summers in San Francisco are correct. A fog bank rolled in and we found ourselves sitting in about 48 degrees about 30 mile an hour winds. And even though there was a pretty powerful heater going on, and I had four layers of clothing on me, if the restaurant owner had come out and open the door and said it’s time to come inside I would have run, not walk so we’re all making decisions based on some of it is the science and some of it is based on what felt like impending frostbite.

Dr. Bob Wachter 

Restaurants have had to figure things out all the way along and have had to pivot and reinvent themselves. And it’s really quite a story so you’ll enjoy hearing it from our guest, who is Justin Sutherland. He’s a chef restaurant group owner and something of a TV star. He operates multiple award-winning restaurants in the Minneapolis St. Paul area. Including the Handsome Gog, Obachan Noodles and Chickpea Hummus Bar, Woodfire Cantina, and Gray Duck Tavern. To that, let us bring on Justin Sutherland.

Dr. Bob Wachter  10:15

Justin, nice to meet you. How you doing?

Justin Sutherland 

I’m doing wonderful. Nice to meet you.

Dr. Bob Wachter 

Good, good. Thanks for doing this. So let’s start off with the news. And the news is the new CDC guidelines on masking. What’s your take on it?

Justin Sutherland 

You know, I mean, I’m happy about it. I think it’s, it’s good for the businesses. I think we’ve had a very long, 14 months, and I think the majority of the people have, you know, follow the rules and did what’s, you know, necessary to be done? And I think it’s time to time to be done.

Dr. Bob Wachter 

Yeah. What do you hear in terms of folks in your industry and reaction to people generally think it’s a good idea. Some people think it’s a little too soon. How are people sorting it out?

Justin Sutherland 

I mean, I think it’s a mixed bag there. I mean, I’d say I mean, in in at least my circles, the people I’m talking to, I would say about 70% of the people that I’m talking to think it’s a good idea. And, you know, there’s a portion that think it’s a little too soon, and some restaurants that are still going to continue to wear masks.

Dr. Bob Wachter 

So what are you doing in your restaurants in terms of what you ask of your clients, but also what you ask of your staff?

Justin Sutherland 

You know, I mean, my staff is 100% vaccinated, we, you know, we were a vaccine site for a while and helped a lot of the other industry, people get vaccinated. So, I’m no longer requiring my staff to, and we’re letting guests you know, make their own decisions as adults. And you know, we’re not going to argue either way, if people want to wear masks, if that’s what they’re comfortable with, we 100% support it. And if they don’t we 100% support that.

Dr. Bob Wachter

And are you advertising either in advertising or telling people when they come in if they have questions about whether or not your staff is vaccinated?

Justin Sutherland 

You know, I mean, we posted you know, in our host stand, and you know, that our staff is 100% vaccinated, that we’re going to follow CDC guidelines. And that, you know, we welcome everybody to do whatever they feel comfortable. I mean, we’re not advertising per se, but you know, we let people know,

Dr. Bob Wachter  12:11

Let’s go back a year and a half, almost, when you first heard about this virus in China, or in Italy, did your brain allow you to spool ahead and say, wow, this is going to be a big deal for my industry. And here may be some of the things that I’m going to have to do. How much did you anticipate about what might happen in the next year?

Justin Sutherland 

You know, I think I mean, right away, I don’t think anybody anticipated, you know, the length, there are extremes that this would go to, you know, we heard about this, you know, about this virus, you know, they at first they’re like, you know, might be a couple of weeks, we’ll get it under control. There’s a lot of mixed messages. But you know, but as soon as the restaurant closure happened, then, you know, we really, we knew it was for real. And we definitely knew our industry was going to be pretty devastated.

Dr. Bob Wachter

So how did you then once it became clear that this is not going to be a couple of weeks phenomenon. But it’s going to go on for many months. How did you even begin thinking about a strategy, you know, the sort of the economics, what you do with your workers, whether you pivot to take out and just sort of all you must have had to make 1000 decisions. How did you think that through?

Justin Sutherland 

Yes, I mean, this course this last year, I think a new decision had been made every single day, as we figured out, you know, what was happening. You know, I think in the immediacy when it happens, you know, the initial attention was just on our staff. You know, most people in the restaurant industry are, you know, uninsured living paycheck to paycheck rely on tips. So, I mean, my biggest concern was just, you know, how are my staff and my colleagues and people in my industry going to literally survive through this. You know, the business, we didn’t really think about the business too much at first, we really just thinking about, you know, our community.

Dr. Bob Wachter

So take me through that. So you’ve got a, you know, I know you’ve run a number of restaurants, but let’s take one of them. You’ve got, you know, I don’t know how many staff you have, but you have a bunch of people. Do you have to sit down and tell them, you’re going to be out of work and I don’t have any idea how long and then how do you make a decision about are you just going to close down? Are you going to stay open for takeout? And is that a viable industry?

Justin Sutherland  14:18

Right. Yeah. I mean, it was first that you know, having to sit down with all the staff and let them know, you know, to help them apply for unemployment, let them know. You know what the situation is, we don’t know how long this is going to be. You know, myself and Chef David Fhima, we actually started a nonprofit called the North Stands, where we raised money to give stipend checks to all the restaurant workers, they could just go online to the website apply. And, you know, we handed out over about three over $300,000 worth of money just to just help our workers get through. We opened up free community food shelves and food banks every Tuesday down at the Nome for service industry workers could come and pretty much go grocery shopping for free. And then just really trying to we didn’t know how long it’s going but we knew it was gonna impact our people very much.

Dr. Bob Wachter 

Yeah. And then how about the restaurant as a business? So you kind of have to decide do I completely shut down? Do I stay open for takeout? At the time I guess you probably couldn’t even do outdoor dining. But with that became a possibility. How did you decide sort of what the right business strategy was?

Justin Sutherland 

Right? You know, honestly, it didn’t until the PPP loans and stuff started coming out, it really wasn’t viable to do takeout only. So once the PPP money rolled in, and we could you know, we could pay our staff, then we switched to take out and rolled through it all the way. But right at the beginning, we just kept everything closed down. It was just too volatile.

Dr. Bob Wachter 

Yeah. And what’s the economics of just running takeout? What’s your income stream there? compared to normal day at the restaurant?

Justin Sutherland 

Yeah, I mean, it obviously changed drastically. I mean, we didn’t, I mean, we didn’t do a lot of takeout whatsoever. I mean, I didn’t do Doordash, or any third-party delivery stuff. takeout was, you know, maybe 10% of our business, pre-pandemic, you know, then it went to 100%. And, you know, and it’s still holding on strong. I mean, I would still say 30% to 40% of our businesses is still takeout. So really shifting those models, you know, changing menus, things that transport better. And really leaning into it. I think, you know, a lot of restaurants especially, you know, finer dining restaurants, takeout just wasn’t something that we were very excited about. So, I mean, you really have..

Dr. Bob Wachter  16:25

So, what would be a typical decision that here’s a dish that we serve for in-house, and it’s just not going to work takeout, and we’re gonna change to this other dish, what are those dishes?

Justin Sutherland 

Yeah, I mean, things like fresh pastas, things like, you know, seafood dishes, you know, this, you know, french fries generally don’t transport very well, you know, we added a lot more, we add a lot more sandwiches to the menu, you know, just things that are going to travel better, you know, and just took a lot of those things that are very saucy, and just, you know, they’d have all these garnishes and, you know, plated dishes and whatnot, just don’t really work.

Dr. Bob Wachter 

And then in terms of, I’m still trying to understand the economics. So you said you went to 100%. takeout. Let’s say, I don’t know what the economics are in a given month, you know, the restaurant would bring in 100,000 bucks, you know, if you’re doing as well as you can do and take out, are you bringing in 50? Or 20? Or are you up to sort of what you would have made beforehand? With just takeout? How does that work?

Justin Sutherland 

We did get pretty close to what we were, you know, our normal sales up with takeout, you know, one of the things with takeout is, is you can, your labor is a lot less. So you don’t have to factor that in. Because, you know, I mean, we’ve had two people in the front of the house answering phones and packaging, and, you know, three cooks in the kitchen. So I mean, unfortunately, you know, you cut your staff down, but probably about 75% to do takeout. So that makes the economics a little bit better. And I think, you know, as people realize that how bad restaurants were struggling, you know, the community really leaned into the takeout and was extremely supportive.

Dr. Bob Wachter 

Yeah. Do you think that’s part of what was going on? They actually were doing it not just to eat great food, but really to try to keep the restaurants afloat and to be supportive of that community?

Justin Sutherland  18:07

Absolutely, absolutely. We saw a lot of that. I mean, people, you know, people were very, very proud of, you know, posting where they took takeout from and making sure they were spreading the love around. And it was I think the community really stepped up to help us make it through.

Dr. Bob Wachter 

Yeah. Any dishes that did particularly well in take out that, you know, wow that was surprising. That’s kind of that’s the winner.

Justin Sutherland 

Yeah, I don’t know if was surprising or not, but our Tennessee Hot Chicken Sandwich was the number one takeout dish of the year. Just 1000s of them went out.

Dr. Bob Wachter 

Wow. That sounds pretty great.

Dr. Caitlin Rivers 

Hi, Bob. It’s Caitlin rivers here as an IN THE BUBBLE listener and occasional guest. Thanks so much for your excellent hosting over these last few months. I’m sorry to see you go from the show. You did an amazing job filling in for Andy. But I know I can catch you on Twitter, so it’s not really Goodbye. See you soon.

Dr. Lucy McBride 

Bob, it’s Lucy McBride in Washington, DC, thank you so much for your leadership during the pandemic. It’s been essential and valuable and has kept so many of us healthy and sane. Thank you also for having me on IN THE BUBBLE, which was a great treat. I have no fear about your normal, your new normal, whatever that may look like post hosting of IN THE BUBBLE. I hope you enjoy a little break. I hope you enjoy peace and happiness and post pandemic growth. I look forward to working with you again. And thank you so much. Good luck. Bye.

Dr. Bob Wachter 

Alright, so let’s, we talked about sort of how it was in 2020. Was there any moment where you really thought it’s over, I’m gonna have to close restaurant.

Justin Sutherland 

Absolutely. I think every restaurant too or thought that many times and you know, unfortunately, most of us did, you know, include a lot of restaurants closed either, you know, some of my restaurants definitely closed and probably won’t come back or will come back in different iterations. And unfortunately, I mean, we lost a lot of our greats here. Last year, I mean, some big staples in the city are just are no more.

Dr. Bob Wachter  20:20

Yeah. So you have had restaurants that you think are not going to come back?

Justin Sutherland 

Yeah, I mean, just yes. All right, you know, not right away. I mean, you know, especially based on location, you know, we have restaurants that are, you know, downtown, surrounded by all these office buildings, and nobody’s going to work. So I mean, that business lunch crowd was kind of lost. Things that were highly reliant on events, I mean, everything you know, near the XL, or near any theaters or whatnot, when there was no concerts, no sports, no anything, you know, that drove a lot of business. So, you know, I think it was, I think was based on the location, but definitely stuff that won’t come back and tell them more of the world comes back, I guess?

Dr. Bob Wachter 

And how hard is it? I obviously know nothing about this business. You close it down. And then let’s say it, it would come back when sports comes back six months from now, or it will come back when people start going downtown to eat, you know, six months from now? Are you just carrying a lease and paying a bunch of money to keep something afloat, or at some point do you have to pull the plug and it’s gonna be really, really hard to bring it back even if the conditions change?

Justin Sutherland 

Right. I think, you know, I think everybody’s situation is different, you know, some landlords have been better to work with than others, some landlords have, you know, forgiving rent, and just, you know, help people make it through some landlords were Nope, pay me. You know, and it depends on the financial situation of that business. You know, now that some of federal grant monies rolling through again, the PPP loans have helped out. So there’s been some finally some programming that’s come back to help restaurants survive. But, you know, I think it really depends on the situation you were in pre-pandemic, you know, some, some restaurants were holding on by a thread before this even happened. And this just really, really kind of ended it for him. So I think everyone’s situation is different.

Dr. Bob Wachter  22:02

Yeah. And the PPP loans, how did that actually work? They gave you money. It’s a loan, was it predicated on you continuing to keep some percentage of your staff employed? How did that actually play out?

Justin Sutherland 

Yeah, I mean, it was presented as a loan, but most of its getting forgiven for most people. And yes, it was payroll protection. So it had to go on 100% towards payroll, which was good. I mean, that was, you know, that’s generally the largest other than rent, actually, you generally more than rent, you know, as your largest expenses is payroll. So when we can get that taken care of it allowed us to limp by.

Dr. Bob Wachter 

Yeah. So I guess fair to say had that not been a thing that damage to the industry would have been far worse.

Justin Sutherland 

Oh, absolutely. I mean, I would have probably shut everything down. If it wasn’t for that. I mean, it got pretty dire for a while.

Dr. Bob Wachter 

Wow, okay. So, now that folks are getting vaccinated, things are starting to open up. We hear sometimes that restaurant owners are eager to hire, but it’s hard to find workers. And some people are blaming the unemployment benefits. What do you see?

Justin Sutherland 

Um, you know, I think it’s a mix of a lot of things. I wouldn’t I, you know, the unemployment, I think is a small percentage of that right now. In all honesty, I think a lot of people have just left the industry altogether, you know, they spent this last year plus learning a new trade, you know, doing something different. And then, you know, realizing that this industry wasn’t really for them. Pay is never been great; benefits have never been great. Hours have been long. And I think, you know, with everybody stepping back from the industry, it really kind of showed a magnifying glass on the whole situation and really addressed some of the issues that were always there.

Dr. Bob Wachter 

Yeah. And are you finding it hard to hire staff yourself right now?

Justin Sutherland

I mean, yes, it’s definitely not as easy as it was. You know, it depends on the restaurant, you know, I mean, luckily, […] have been, we are very, very rare. You know, I still have almost 70% of my opening staff from six years ago. So I’ve got a pretty strong loyal team there. It’s been hard to hire new people. But I think it’s slowly coming back. I think with the with the weather and patio season, you know, people are feeling more comfortable working outside with everybody being vaccinated. You know, the unemployment benefits are slowly starting to end. So I think it’ll get a little bit better. But at the end of the day, I do think a lot of people just are not coming back to restaurants.

Dr. Bob Wachter  24:23

Yeah. And do you still have employees or prospective employees who just still don’t feel safe in the environment? They’re worried about getting sick?

Justin Sutherland 

Not personally, I know it’s out there. I know some people are, you know, everybody has their own personal reasons and feelings, you know about the situation. So I haven’t personally experienced that, all my staff was very, very eager to come back as soon as they could. But I know that’s an issue for others.

Dr. Bob Wachter 

You mentioned that it’s a tough industry, you know, prior to COVID probably be a tough industry after COVID has the pandemic sort of shone a light on what we need to do to make it a more attractive industry to, you know, for both owners and for workers?

Justin Sutherland 

Absolutely. You know, I mean, everything from quality of life, to mental health to wage disparities to just everything, I think life’s been shown, you know, we’ve got to pay people better, we’ve got to figure out how to get this industry, better benefits when it comes to health care. And, you know, we just people got to work less. I mean, you know, that, I think gone are the days of, you know, bragging about the 70–80-hour work week for no money and, you know, people, you know, that used to be a badge of honor. But now, I think that lifestyle is behind us.

Dr. Bob Wachter 

Yeah. The federal government is working on something called a Restaurant Revitalization Fund. Can you tell us a little about that and how important that might be?

Justin Sutherland 

It’s, I mean, it’s absolutely crucial. I think it came; it came too late. But I’m glad that it’s happening. You know, every other industry, you know, he has lobbyists, you know, for them in Washington, and they get, you know, they, if the airlines or cruise ships or everything, you know, there’s always these bailout packages for everybody, when, you know, when stuff goes south, and there’s been nobody fighting for the restaurant. So, you know, but it’s just that I mean, it’s the same sort of bailout package that wall street gets the banks get that airlines get, you know, and it’s just money that needs to be pumped back in this industry, in order for it to survive.

Dr. Bob Wachter  26:22

And then how would it make it to you?

Justin Sutherland 

it comes as an electronic transfer, you know, you take your average, you had to submit, you know, your taxes, and you took your average losses for that year, the money that you did not make, and you know, based upon however they calculate that up, they’re just giving you that in the form of a check that you can use for anything business related, which is nice.

Dr. Bob Wachter 

It’s nothing necessarily to go forward, it basically is to compensate you for what you didn’t earn last year that you presumably would have had the pandemic not been there,

Justin Sutherland 

Correct. Correct.

Dr. Bob Wachter 

Doesn’t necessarily change the dynamics the sort of the way money flows in the industry. In 2022, or beyond. It’s basically to make up for the hit last year?

Justin Sutherland 

[….] to make up for the hit last year. And you know, again, it depends on the size of the business. I mean, I’ve seen some restaurants getting 250,000. And some, you know, some restaurant groups getting 10 million. So I think it depends on the size of your restaurant, what your average sales were and what losses you could report.

Dr. Bob Wachter 

Yeah. You talked about kind of which of your restaurants got challenged, particularly or hit particularly hard in terms of sort of what, where they were located? Or did you do catering or were you near a sporting event, or theaters, or near downtown where a lot of workers used to go and now they’re at home on Zoom. Any other things that kind of seem to determine how well a given restaurant did the type of food or price point, that sort of thing? Did that seem to go into it at all, or it was mostly location?

Justin Sutherland 

No, I think all of those things, I think, you know, the style of food and the style of service. You know, unfortunately, a lot of our, you know, high contact fine dining, restaurants are the ones I think that took the biggest hit where you’re, you know, where there’s all those steps of service, you know, just as we were distancing, and, you know, servers weren’t having all vax, attention at the tables, and, you know, the touching of all of the plates and stuff like that.

Justin Sutherland  28:11

So I think fine dining took a hit just because, financially, you know, people weren’t in a position to spend that much money. And just the style of service didn’t really make sense in this last year. Places that I think succeeded really well. People really started just leaning into like comfort food. And I think everybody had just such a high stress year that you know, every anything that was just comfortable and made them feel good and just reminded them of, you know, of better days, I think of this as the stuff that just homestyle food, I think really was an upswing this year.

Dr. Bob Wachter 

Yeah. I actually give you a trigger warning before I say this, but I’ll just say at one point I tweeted, this was early must have an April or something that I had lunch one day in my house, and I had Spaghettios and Double Stuff Oreos.

Justin Sutherland 

Yep.

Dr. Bob Wachter 

I mean, it’s just like the most disgusting thing in the universe. It just felt like that’s what I wanted to have for lunch.  I don’t know. How did you eat this year? Did your diet change compared to what your usual is?

Justin Sutherland  

It did, I mean, obviously cooked at home a lot more, you know, ordered takeout to try and support as many restaurants as we could. But yeah, again, I think it was the same thing. I mean, I felt like a five-year-old a lot. It was chicken fingers and ramen noodles. And just, you know, just things that were financially viable and things that were just comfortable. You know, again, it was a high stress year and I think everyone wanted to have something that made him feel good.

Dr. Bob Wachter 

Yeah, but you would not have gotten down to the Spaghettios and Double Stuff Oreos, I assume, right?

Justin Sutherland 

Oh, no, I am not above. Not above that whatsoever. I’ll take a Spaghettios any day.

Dr. Bob Wachter 

It’s pretty pretty good.

Dr. Monica Gandhi  

Hi, Bob. I just wanted to tell you that you have been amazing as a host of IN THE BUBBLE podcast. This is Monica Gandhi. But I also wanted to actually really say that you have been a leader throughout during COVID, and it has been an honor to be have you in my, have you as my department chair and to be in your department. This is Monica again. And thank you so much for everything.

Paul Offit  30:26

I want to thank Bob Wachter for an amazing job and providing critical information during a critical time. Thanks so much, Bob. Best, Paul Offit.

Dr. Bob Wachter 

So let’s, as we mature to the end, let’s talk a little about where the industry is gonna go coming out of this, you know, and my industry in healthcare, a lot of changes happen in COVID. Some of them will stick like telemedicine, you know, it was not really a thing in healthcare and is became a thing. And we’ll certainly stick. As you look at the landscape coming out of this, what are the changes that you think are going to have staying power after COVID’s over?

Justin Sutherland 

I mean, in Minnesota, obviously, we always want to be outside as much as we can, when we get our one month of summer. Outdoor dining for sure is big. And you know, people are changing their formats to a lot more counter service a lot more quick service. You know, financially, unfortunately, you know, we still are cutting, it’s hard to hire and cutting back on staff. So I just think those high service level restaurants, I think are, you know, we’ll still want our fine dining places to go out for special occasions. But I think it’s going to be a little less of that and a little bit more of the quick service counter service kind of stuff. And I think takeout is here to stay. You know, a lot of us, like I said, we hated it before, we loath having to do takeout. But now we’ve realized that, you know, for some people, that’s just gonna be the way they eat.

Dr. Bob Wachter 

Yeah. And in terms of their restaurants I go to here in San Francisco. Now, they don’t hand you a menu, you take a picture of the QR code. Is that gonna stick do you think?

Justin Sutherland  32:04

I think so. I mean, I think so. I think so many things we’ve just gotten used to this year, I mean, you know, just like Zoom calls. You know, two years ago, never got a Zoom call. I’ve done a million of them this year. So yeah, I think you up QR codes will stick around, honestly, you know, we’ve learned a lot. I mean, they’re, it’s cheaper than printing menus, you can update and change your menu, just, you know, easily just go online, change it, and it changes the QR code. So yeah, I think those things will be and everybody always has a smartphone in their pocket. So why not?

Dr. Bob Wachter 

Yeah. You know, people have wondered about the future of waitstaff, and whether that will ultimately get automated and you’ll order from some electronic menu on the table, and some robot will bring it out? Or do you think there’s anything that’s happened over the past year that might first of all, do you think that’s going to be trend? And did it get accelerated? Do you think during this year, we went to so many techie things?

Justin Sutherland 

Right. I mean, inevitably, I mean, that’s just the way of the world, you know, technology always finds a way to do things that so people don’t have to, you know, I think there’s, it’ll I don’t know, it’s gonna happen quickly. I mean, it’s not something that we’re excited about, I don’t want a robot to bring me my food. And, you know, part of that experience of going out is just the interaction with people in that service. So, you know, hopefully, it doesn’t get that extreme, too quickly. But obviously, we’re always figuring out how to automate things in our world. So it’ll happen to some degree.

Dr. Bob Wachter 

Yeah. How about by the stove? Are there parts of that process that you think are going to be automated? And did that any of that get accelerated by COVID?

Justin Sutherland 

Absolutely, you know, I think in you know, I think your fast-food restaurants and stuff are definitely gonna start going that way. I mean, you know, you go into any McDonald’s or anything now, you know, you order from a kiosk and all that stuff. And, you know, they already have the automatic things that dropped the fries. And, you know, I’ve seen all the robots that they’re testing out for stuff. So yeah, I think in, you know, maybe some of your chain restaurants, maybe some of your fast-food stuff might start going in that direction. But I don’t think in the vast majority of, you know, single owned restaurants and local restaurants will go that way.

Dr. Bob Wachter  34:07

Good. I hope not my God.

Justin Sutherland 

I hope not.

Dr. Bob Wachter 

Yeah. It’s scary, as you know, even just the menu thing. I was out the other night and took the little picture of the menu thing, and I get it. And as you say, it’s more efficient, and you can update it more, but it just felt like oh, God, yeah, it’s getting more depersonalized, more technological. And you just wonder where that ends.

Justin Sutherland 

Yeah, I mean, I personally don’t like it. I still when I go out to eat, I asked if they have a physical menu. I mean, it’s just, I don’t know, there’s something about it. Again, you’re right. It’s very unpersonal. It’s just, you know, every […] staring at their phones, and it kind of just, there’s more to, you know, going out to a restaurant than just than just the food. I mean, it’s a total package. It’s an experience. And as we start taking some of these experiential things away, like you said, it just becomes very impersonal.

Dr. Bob Wachter 

Yeah. So let’s be the last couple of minutes just talking about what the restaurant industry means to you and to your clients. You know, at one level, it’s a business and it’s one level it’s a physiologic need, we need food and you’re solving that. But you know, I get the sense from you that you see it as something much more than that. And losing it is much more than that. And getting it back will be much more than that. So, talk a little about what it all what you think it means to people.

Justin Sutherland

Yeah, I mean, like I said, I think it’s more I mean, yes, we could eat for sustenance, we could, you know, get an IV bag and just, you know, get our, you know, get all of our vitamins and eat through a tube if we want. But you know, that’s not what it’s about by any means. I mean, you know, for me, food is always just kind of been this great equalizer, this time where people can get together where problems are solved. And you know, I always say, nobody’s ever, nobody’s ever angry at a barbecue. I think, you know, when people it’s just, you know, it’s just much more of a need than just the sustenance, I think it you know, it’s the way that we celebrate. It’s the way that we commune. And there’s just so much more ingrained in that dining experience than just eating.

Dr. Bob Wachter 

Yeah. It’s interesting as you say that. Last week we had on the president of the San Francisco Giants. And he was talking about why the ballgames were important. And he gave a very similar answer that yes, of course, you’re going out to watch a ballgame. But seeing parents and kids, seeing, you know, a kid from a poor neighborhood sitting next to somebody from a wealthy neighborhood in San Francisco and their giving each other high fives. You know, it’s a way of bringing people together. And it’s a way of showing, you know, our love for one another that when it goes away, you realize how important it is, even if even though you can still get the calories in other ways.

Justin Sutherland  36:37

Right. I mean, and it’s so cultural. I mean, it’s how we learn about other cultures. It’s how we learn about other people. It’s how, you know, there’s just so many stories ingrained in different dishes and the way that they’ve traveled and just, there’s just yeah, for me, there’s just so much more to it.

Dr. Bob Wachter 

Yeah. So as you look at the stage that we’re at, which hopefully is getting toward normal, do you approach this with some sense of optimism? Or it sounds like such a tough industry. I wonder, you know, how you temper the optimism with the sort of facts on the ground and the facts, the economic facts are still pretty hard.

Justin Sutherland

You know, they are, luckily, like I said, we’re moving into summer here, we’ve got patio season, you know, restrictions are being lifted. So, you know, I’m optimistic. I mean, obviously, things are gonna change some of the changes that happened this year, you know, we’ll be here forever, you know, the way we do everything in the world is altered to some degree forever. I don’t think we ever go back to what it was before, just because we’re conscious of so many, you know, so many more things that we weren’t before. But I’m optimistic, like I said, I mean, our honestly, we’ve this year, I mean, we’re on track to have our best year ever.

Justin Sutherland 

The support has been amazing from the community. You know, and again, it’s restaurants are a place that people go for so much more than food and drink, it’s, you know, it’s the local meeting place. It’s where you close deals, it’s where you get engaged. It’s where you do so many things. So I don’t think that ever goes away. I think restaurants mean a lot to a lot of people for so many different reasons.

Dr. Bob Wachter  38:05

Yeah. I guess I can’t leave you without talking a little bit about the year in racial justice. And obviously, you’re in Minneapolis–Saint Paul and at the epicenter of it, how has that affected you? And how has it affected the industry around you? Obviously, you know, we’ve spent our time talking about COVID. But that was as important an issue that hit all of us this year.

Justin Sutherland 

It was, I mean, those two things coupled together, has made this year, just monumental, and yes being in Minneapolis, being at the center of it all. You know, for me, and for a  lot of business owners. You know, I think there was always this was kind of walked this line of, you know, not, you know, not being too political, not being too this, not being do that, because you’re a business and you welcome everybody and you don’t want to rub anybody the wrong way. But I think this year, there was very much kind of this line in the sand moment where, you know, we as business owners could openly say that, you know, what we will and will not stand for what we you know, what our businesses stand for, you know, and really and able to, to voice our opinions, as you know, and beliefs as people, not just business owners that are, you know, supposed to be quiet and appease everybody. So I kind of stopped trying to make everybody happy. I’m very vocal about, you know, where I stand on these issues. And, you know, honestly, it’s been good. I think it’s been a relief people. People have needed to needed to hear that.

Dr. Bob Wachter 

And can give us an example of something that you did or said that you would not have, you would have been reluctant to do that a couple years ago?

Justin Sutherland 

I you know, I mean, I’ve always been very outspoken, and I’ve never, I mean, I haven’t really followed that path. I was just saying in general. But I mean, I was very vocal. I mean, I was out there at all the marches and protests, I spoke on the steps of the Capitol. You know, we took our food truck and fed all the cleanup crews after the unrest after George Floyd. I mean, I was very much out there and everybody knew where I stood on these issues.

Dr. Bob Wachter 

Yeah, good for you. Well, Justin, thank you for taking time to tell us about the industry. And I’m thrilled that you made it. And I’m really glad that we’re coming into a better place. I’m a little worried that so much of your optimism hinges on the warm weather in Minneapolis. Doesn’t sound like something I’d want to hang my business on.

Justin Sutherland  40:17

Oh, yeah, no, absolutely not. But I hope by the time this warm weather is over, when we get into next winter, hopefully we’re in a totally different place. That’s what’s gonna carry us through here, at least for the next few months.

Dr. Bob Wachter 

Sounds good. All right. Thanks so much. Appreciate it.

Justin Sutherland

Awesome. Thank you so much.

Dr. Bob Wachter  40:45

Well, a special thanks to Justin Sutherland. And to all of the 50 or so guests that I had the privilege to chat with on the show since I started in January. As I said, Andy will come back in a few weeks please continue listening for some as they say encore presentations of past great shows. And I look forward to listening to Andy when he resurfaces at host in mid-June. And with that I..

Katie Hafner  41:14

Honey, could you please take the dog out for a walk?

Dr. Bob Wachter  41:17

Yes, thank you, Katie. I wish you only the best as I sign off, be well.

CREDITS

We’re a production of Lemonada Media. Kryssy Pease and Alex McOwen produced our show. Our mix is by Ivan Kuraev. Jessica Cordova Kramer and Stephanie Wittels Wachs executive produced the show. Our theme was composed by Dan Molad and Oliver Hill and additional music by Ivan Kuraev. You can find out more about our show on social media at @InTheBubblePod. Until next time, stay safe and stay sane. Thanks so much for listening

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