Mental Health
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Description
This year has taken one hell of a toll — especially on our mental health. The pandemic. The divisive political culture. The social isolation. This week, Jaime is joined by Lemonada Media co-founder and Last Day host Stephanie Wittels Wachs for a frank talk about mental health. Jaime admits she’s never felt as bad as she does now, but also realizes that just saying that out loud is helpful for her. The two of them also answer questions from a listener worried about her sister and another concerned about his own well-being.
FYI: Tell Me What to Do contains mature language and themes that may not be suitable for all listeners.
Please note, this show is hosted and produced by a team that does not have any clinical or other mental or physical health training. If you are having a health or mental health crisis or emergency, please contact 911. For non-emergency mental health and addiction needs, try https://www.samhsa.gov for national and local resources.
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For additional resources, information, and a transcript of the episode, visit www.lemonadamedia.com/show/tmwtd
Transcription
SPEAKERS
Caller 1, Jackson, Stephanie Wittels Wachs, Jaime Primak Sullivan
Jaime Primak Sullivan 00:00
Let me just tell you about my mental health lately. It really like is not good.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
I am here.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
Alright Janet.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
Hey. Hi. Hi. Can you pay attention?
Jaime Primak Sullivan
Nobody wants to see your nipples Janet.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
No, I would never do that.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
Just me. All right. Oh, your yo yo, yo, it’s just the worst. Wax on. Wax off.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
What’s up, guys? It’s Jaime Primak Sullivan. I am still your host. And I’m so grateful to be here. Oh, this is TELL ME WHAT TO DO podcast. So much going on in the world right now. First of all, cold front sweeping through Birmingham, which almost never happens yesterday at flurried and my kids were screaming, it’s snowing, it’s snowing, and I didn’t have the heart to be like, Really? It’s barely snow. Okay, it literally looks like frosty may or may not have farted at this point. Like I grew up in Jersey. That was snow, right? Like my kids, but they see flurries in there like, it’s snowing.
Jackson
Kids don’t get excited over there. It’s like, Oh, God.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
Well, we do get excited if we think schools gonna get canceled.
Jackson
There’s a lot for school.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
Yeah, you’re right, because we are prepared for snow whereas Alabama’s not right. Like we have salt trucks, sand trucks, they plows that go through the streets all night. So we could literally snow all night and you get up in the morning and the streets are clear. And you’re like what the you know, because you wore your pajamas inside out and totally thought that you were not going to school. So, there’s so much going on in the world. It’s like I don’t really know where even to start. First of all I want to know today is Tuesday after Thanksgiving is today the last day we can eat Thanksgiving leftovers, or is it a full week or how’s that work?
Jackson 02:05
You have to test the food.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
Okay, so at this point is just like the smell test? Okay, because last night I ate the remaining bits of sweet potato casserole and it was to die for and I just want you to know if you’re curious. It was made on Thursday. So Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Four days later, still delicious. Okay? Still delicious. Did you gain any weight? Do you think?
Jackson
I don’t weigh myself as a matter of principle.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
What does that even mean?
Jackson
It means it’s bad for my mental health.
Jaime Primak Sullivan 02:33
Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. I get that. So I should not have weighed myself this morning. Because the pound and a half that I had lost, found me. It once was lost, but now is found. So it’s the amazing great weight, Grace weight. It’s the Amazing Grace weight that once was lost but now is found back on my fucking ass. Okay, it doesn’t even go to my ass. Like I wouldn’t even complain as much if my weight went to my ass instead. It goes to my back goes to my chin. What the hell is that? Oh, speaking of chin, I did find a hair on my chin today. I said I’m like the three little pigs now by the hair of my chinny chin chin. Welcome to 44 I am taking the COVID vaccine. Why don’t we just go for it. Let’s just go for it in this episode. And I’m just going to talk about the things that I feel I’m taking the vaccine because Never in my life have I doubted science or doctors and I’m not going to start now.
Nobody’s going to infiltrate the part of understanding part of my brain with any propaganda against science. I don’t care how I vote how I spend my money who I back for elections. I believe in science. It doesn’t matter. I could vote staunch Republican down the ticket from the time I was 18 until yesterday. I’ve never doubted science. Now I did space out the MMR. I did. When my kids were young. I spaced it out because I felt like three vaccinations or 10 whatever they wanted to do at a time felt a little excessive to me like I don’t think my kid’s gonna get hit with measles, mumps, rubella, polio, fucking chickenpox and herpes in the same week at preschool. We could slow this down a little bit.
04:21
We’re not internationally traveling. So everybody simmer down, we go to the little Christian preschool on the corner. I you know, we can spread this out. So I spread it out over like 18 months, everybody’s fine. But I gave my kids the vaccinations. I’m not judging. By the way. If you don’t want to vaccinate your kids, that is your right until the school say your kid can’t come to school, then you got to figure it out. Or you can join the Amish country or the Hasidim, there are options. You can join a radical group of religion where they fight to not vaccinate, and you can go to a Hasidic Jewish school or you can go to the Amish. You can.
Jackson
Absolutely.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
No, you’re laughing but you actually can.
Jackson
Yes. For the greater part of society, you got to be vaccinated.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
Well, we don’t want polio in America, because you saw what happened to FDR.
Jackson
I wasn’t there. But looking back yeah.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
yeah. I mean, he was like, significant he was had a lot of issues from polio. I know that from Little Orphan Annie, right? I’m getting the vaccine as soon as Dr. David tells me, it’s safe to do so we had a family Zoom on Thanksgiving. He felt very good about the research and the data that he was seeing. Now, I think they’re going to do frontline workers, first responders, elderly, and that’s fine. I’m happy to wait my turn. But I’m all for it. I’m taking it.
Jackson
Me too.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
Okay. I’m not afraid to say I have to listen to doctors because I don’t know shit about medicine. And I don’t believe the medical community is out to get me. I don’t think they give a shit about me personally. You know what I mean? Like, so if my pediatrician, my dentist, my veterinarian, my gynecologist, and my infectious disease expert, brother-in-law are all taking it. I’m taking it. I’m taking it. But because Janet on Facebook swears that the government is conspiring to poison me like, Okay, all right, Janet. Well, then Janet, you don’t take it. I’m taking. And I’ll wear a sticker if I have to. But I do think that health care workers and people that work in long term care facilities and first responder, you know, they should all have access to it if they want it.
Jaime Primak Sullivan 06:46
And I’m using a little humor, obviously, you know, it is it should be people’s right. There’s a conspiracy going around that the government is going to force you to take it, they are not. This is still a democracy. I don’t care what your political friend on Facebook tells you. This is still a democracy. There’s a series of checks and balances and but they’re not letting us into stores. If we don’t wear a mask. Well, they don’t let you in without wearing a shirt either. That’s not threatening your democracy. It’s just nobody wants to see your nipples, Janet. I mean, I do, of course, because I love nipples. But most people don’t want to see your nipples. While they don’t let me in without shoes. Well, nobody wants to see your toes. And that goes for me too. I do not.
So I know that we joke around about like, the sponsors of the show. But we really do use hellofresh. You know that because you’ve seen it. And my kids love cooking. But what I find that they’re doing is hellofresh gives you everything you need to make the meal the way it’s intended to be made. And what I am finding when allowing the kids to cook themselves, is they are leaving out the ingredients they don’t like. So I’m eat. I’m taking bites of something going, huh? Good, but it doesn’t have any flavor. So what’s going on there? And then I read the ingredients and I’m like, Olivia, where’s the cilantro? Where’s the garlic? Where’s the and she’s like, Oh, I didn’t I threw it out. I’m like, whoa. Okay, so you made chimichurri sauce with no what am I eating? Just oil?
08:27
And she’s like, It’s good, right? I’m like, No, see when they give you ingredients you kind of want to. And so I’ve taught I’m trying to teach him to put the sauce on the side, make it the way it’s intended, and then put it on the side. And she did make a chicken garlic pasta. That was actually really good. And she did follow the instructions but left to her own demise. She would not use any of the intended ingredients. So we’re having to now supervise that. What else is going on? How’s your mental health?
Jackson
It’s pretty good.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
Is it?
Jackson
Yeah, actually I did therapy this morning.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
Did you? Did you go to a place?
Jackson
Telehealth.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
It’s telehealth? I use that.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
What do you Well, it’s not my business.
Jackson
Not really well. I’ll tell you the work stuff is good.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
Really?
Jackson
Works going really well.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
Oh, that makes me happy. I like that. I’m really excited about our guests today. Stephanie Wittels Wachs is not only one of the founders of Lemonada Media but she is one of the hosts of one of my favorite podcasts.
Jackson
LAST DAY.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
How’d you know? Oh, cuz she’s the host. It was good Jackson of LAST DAY. And she is going to be on with us today to talk about well, mental health in general. Feeling like you don’t want to go on I did have one time in my life well, two, but really one to where I said it out loud one where I really felt it times where I was on the floor where I was like, ah, this living stuff isn’t for me. I’m good. And that’s why I think I use humor so much. Because when I’m not laughing, I’m crying. And I think, you know, Listen, I’ll be honest with you, I have handled COVID not well, in the beginning, the beginning of COVID, March & April, coming home from Meredith’s 50th birthday party, where I got punched in the face, by the way, will forever be known as the party that I got punched in the face, coming home from there, and the next two months, my anxiety was debilitating.
10:53
Like, you aren’t working with me then. But it was debilitating. Like I had to lay on the floor. Some nights It was so bad. And I think the last few months as I’ve learned that, you know, there are steps I can take to protect me and my family and we are used to wearing masks and we do wash our hands and we are comfortable with hands and you know, it’s become more routine, I felt more comfortable with it. And I don’t feel like I’m living in Space Invaders where people are just like shooting pandemic darts at me. Now I feel like I’m managing it better. But you know, I did go through the vertigo and dirt. You know, that whole thing. And I mean, you saw me some days I was. I mean, I can’t imagine how it looked from your view. I was falling apart. I mean, how many times that I have to get up from our table and go like I have to go um, I got to go in my room.
Jackson
When you tell me you had to go pee, but you were lying.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
Yes, I was. And I was gone for like 40 minutes. I’m like, this kid probably thinks I’m taking 10 shits a day. Honestly, because I was going into my bedroom and trying to refocus and like getting on the floor and you know, I have a strong mind in that I can talk myself through anxiety I don’t try to fight it I let it kind of come but there were some days Jackson where I was like, I’m not I don’t think I can get up off the floor. I’m very grateful I’m doing the sign of the cross. Like cuz I’m so Catholic in that way, but like, I’m very grateful. And I’m grateful to have Stephanie on so let’s get to it. So you know what’s really exciting is today I am joined by the one and only say your own name please.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs 12:39
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
Jackson
Wax on, Wax off.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
I don’t know why I said it like I was like a 40-year smoker, Stephanie Wittels Wachs.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
Please state your name for the record. Stephanie is not only my friend and fellow podcast host, but she is actually the co-founder of the award winning Lemonada Media. She is one of the crazy ladies that decided I was worthy of a podcast on her network. And she’s probably regretting that decision on a daily basis. She probably is in bed and she’s like, honey, how do we fire, Jaime?
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
I mean, dammit. That’s all we talk about.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
Good. I hope it haunts you in the.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
Cats out of the bag. No.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
She hosts this amazing, heartbreaking yet super funny, somehow super funny show called LAST DAY that looks at all the things killing us. In Season One, they looked at the opioid epidemic and now in season two, they’re tackling suicide. I am very excited to talk to her about you, Stephanie, about mental health. And let me tell you why mental health is important to me. I have never been so fucking aware of my mental health as I am. In this current. I hate the word climate because I feel like it’s so overused like the most overused word of 2020, the most polarizing triggering word for me when someone’s like it’s a climate, the climate change. It’s the political climate.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
But I don’t know what other word to use. So I have no choice but to use climate. I feel like I am. Do you know when you wear like a shirt that has a tag that itches you or like a thing that sticks you or like a shoe that’s too tight in one spot. And all day you’re just hyper aware. That’s how I feel about my mental health. I feel an exhaustion on my eyelids that I can’t, I can’t quite shake. I feel a nonstop awareness of life. You know, like I used to just live, I used to just get up and live. You know what I mean?
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
Drive to the first place do the thing, drives to the next place, do that thing.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
Do other thing, run cookies to the kids school, pick up a birthday gift, go food shopping, get on some calls for work, you know, I don’t know whatever it is.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
Maybe get a manicure.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
I mean, It was at least an option. And now I’m so hyper aware of live the fact that I’m alive. And I feel like there were few things that we got as human beings that we didn’t have to like be hyper aware of and one of them was simply breathing, you know, I just, I missed the days were breathing was just something you did you just didn’t think about it. ?Am I breathing?
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
It just came and went multiple times every minute.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
In and out.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
Yeah.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
And know. I’m like, deep breath in. Slow, meaningful breath out. Yeah. I have struggled with in the last five weeks vertigo. crippling, crippling anxiety. So much so that I would have to retreat to my bedroom in the middle of the day, tell Jackson, I had to pee or just like step out of the room and get into child pose and put my forehead on the floor to stop the world from spinning and try to catch my breath. I couldn’t mother, I couldn’t function. There were times that like, it was right around the time of my birthday. The pressure of having to just respond to an email. It was so crippling for me. It got to the point where I was so bad that I had to go on autopilot. And just do, right? Nothing was meaningful. And I stopped living and I started surviving. So let me give people a little context for you. You work on a show right now about suicide. You’re running a business. You’re raising two kids. You are home working in the middle of a pandemic. During what is the craziest political time of our lives. Right? You and I. Are your children virtual learning or in school?
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
I have a two-year-old who is just trying to tear the walls of the house down. And then I have an almost seven-year-old who is virtual learning.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
Okay. So you have kids in the house while you’re doing all of this,
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
Indeed.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
Did you also move?
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
I moved. I moved across the country during a pandemic. And now my two elderly parents are also living with us one of whom has Parkinson’s.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
I mean, if this isn’t a priest and a cockroach walk into a bar. I don’t know. Let me ask you a question. How are you holding up?
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
I always make the joke badly. Badly. I’m holding up not well, no, I am holding up like you are, my eyelids feel heavy.
Jaime Primak Sullivan 18:08
I hope not, Stephanie.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
I am. I tell you; I tell you that I am. The thing is, though, is that I am comfortable saying it. You know, and I think you are too, right? Like it’s, this is not what I want. This is not going well; this is not sustainable. We tricked ourselves, you know, in March the kids that everything shut down, and we’re like, it’ll be two weeks, right, two weeks spring break, they’ll go back. And it’s just been a sort of false start. And I think there’s this awareness right now, as we’re going into the third wave of this thing, that it’s we’re nowhere near being done, you know, and like human beings need hope. We need to know this is the end of this and we can move on with our lives. And I think not having that. It’s just this mindfuck. So what I’ll say is, I’m working like 18 hours a day. Like I said, I have a two-year-old, two-year old’s are so intense, and he needs to be on my body also all the time. You know, they need to be with you and on you.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
I’m sorry, I’m making a face but I don’t want that. I’m so glad I don’t have that.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
It’s such a hard phase. You remember though, right? Like, it’s, they’re like screaming and you want to be like, and the way to make them kind of stop us to hold them. But you’re so I’m so like, touched out and tired. You know? So what I did was, I made a therapy appointment for next week. So I was like, I’m, I’m me falling apart and my show I talk about therapy constantly. It’s the thing I say most and I’m like, oh, wait a minute, I’m still taking my medication. But medication alone, like I say in the show is not the only thing that we need to be doing. We need to be doing multiple things. And I know when my anxiety starts, I know when it starts to sort of get out of control. I know when I’m like clenching my jaw and it feels like it’s gonna fall off. I’m like, Okay, I need to, I need to go. I need to go out to therapy. I need to do the maintenance that I know I need to do. So, I think it’s like, yes, it’s hard. Yes, it sucks. Most of the time. I’m feeling like super stressed and anxious, but I’m trying to address it. And I feel like that’s all we can do at this point, you know?
Jaime Primak Sullivan
Let me just tell you about my mental health lately. It really like is not good. To be 100% honest with you. This is the most I’ve struggled ever in my life. I’m not someone who struggles with anxiety. I’m not someone who struggles with depression. I don’t use the word suffer from these things. I don’t have disorders.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
They’re not chronic for you.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
I nothing no, no, no, nope, nope. And I have a very I don’t want to use the word strong mind because then it implies that someone who can’t do this is not strong. But I don’t know a better word. I have a skill, maybe a brain skill. I don’t know what the fuck to call it people. But when I start to feel over anxious, when it starts to take me under, I do have the ability to talk myself out of it. To say, you know what this is, this is just anxiety. Let it come let it wash over you it will pass. Right? So I sometimes get scared. And other times I’m, I’m like, this will be fine. I think what I am dealing with? And I don’t know for sure. Is I think the vertigo is like a manifestation of I don’t understand why it would just come on out of nowhere. I’ve never experienced it before. I just never feel like, well. I have periods of time where I feel better than others. But I just can’t remember the last time I felt normal, like not hyper aware of how I feel. And that is exhausting.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
Yeah. And then you start to cycle into feelings, your feelings about feeling exhausted and feeling like why am I, then you then it becomes a whole thing in your mind. The thing is like the what you just said about I haven’t felt normal. Like of course you haven’t fucking felt normal. None of this is normal. Like you said, no one’s ever dealt with this. We’ve never just stopped and you’re also like me, you work, you travel, you do things. You’re a Doer. So this sort of phase where we’re just sort of stuck, and we can’t do all the things that we’re used to doing. For me, I’ve dug into this on the show work is an addiction work is something that I use to keep going like to push through, right? Like, Oh, I feel like shit, I’m anxious. Let me work. Let me write, let me busy my everything. And I feel like this is hard for those kinds of people. This moment of pause. I don’t know how to pause. I don’t do it well. The other day, the power went out of my house. And literally Michael was like, do I need to call an ambulance for you? Like, I was having like a panic attack. Like, what do I do? What do I do? There’s no electricity, I can’t answer an email. I can’t watch a show. I can’t. Being still it’s just really difficult. I think it’s also as a mom, for me seeing my kids have to be in this, sucks. I hate that my daughter is going to school in the living room. I hate that she can’t see friends. I hate that this is like, potentially traumatizing them in some way. And I take that on. The other thing is like there’s this meme, right? Check on your strong friends. Have you seen that? You know?
Jaime Primak Sullivan
Well, I mean, I’ve seen a meme. I don’t know if it’s.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
Sure. I don’t even know if it’s a meme. I’m gonna call it one. I’ve seen the thing online that says check on your strong friends.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
Right., are there any left? Are there any strong friends left?
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
Probably not. But that’s typically when we talk about I’m usually strong. Those are the folks who you have to worry about a little bit, you know, so I would just say to you, like, have you talked to your doctor, if you’ve gone to a therapist, I you know, I’m not a mental health professional. But one thing that I know from all the ones I’ve interviewed for my show, including Dr. Nzinga Harrison, who came on your show is that.
Jaime Primak Sullivan 24:17
Yes, I love her.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
Therapy, therapy, therapy, therapy, therapy is a thing we all need to be doing.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
Yes. Well, I use Talkspace you know them?
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
Yeah.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
No, not weekly. But I do, I need to do a better,
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
Especially what you just said, which is that I’ve never felt this bad in my life. If you feel that ,this is what we always say, then act on that’s real.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
I don’t even have the energy I know to do therapy. The thought of having to put like I’m doing this with you right now. And this is the most like words. I’ve put together about my own thoughts in a long time. Here’s the thing. I also don’t know how to do nothing. Hmm. But I think I’m getting to the place where I have to. I really do because I think what is happening is my physical health is going to sideline me. And it’s the kind of situation where you neglect your mental health so long that eventually your physical health goes, Well, maybe she’ll pay attention to me.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
I mean, it sounds like it already is. It sounds like the vertigo already is like a, you know, Hey, hi. Hi, can you pay attention?
Jaime Primak Sullivan
It is awful. I could talk to you all day. But we do have like a ton of questions. And I feel like we should at least get to one. So because otherwise, I’ll just keep talking to you. Before Stephanie, and I get to the first question. Let’s take a quick break.
Jaime Primak Sullivan 26:00
We are back. Steph, are you still with us?
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
I am here.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
Okay, good. All right, Steph. The first question comes from an anonymous caller. So let’s listen.
Caller 1
Hey, Jaime, thank you so much for doing these podcasts. I’ve really enjoyed listening to you. And it’s helped me quite a bit. Especially the one that you’re that you’re getting ready. All this mental health. I’ve dealt with mental health issues my entire life. And while I haven’t been on medication for probably six years now. Right around the time that I met you, for the first time was when I stopped taking meds, and I started just being more positive about things, but I do have instances of feeling worthless, and I tend to let that spiral and I get the points in my head that just really scare me. So I’m wondering if there’s a way that or something I should be doing that maybe I can try to avoid these kinds of situations. I love you. Thank you so much.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
Worthless, huh? I don’t like that word. That makes me sad. Do you spiral, Steph?
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
Yeah. Oh my god. Yeah. I’m a spiraler.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
Are you? What is that?
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
Always been, I’ve always been a spiraler. It’s just like, it starts to one thing and then it just keeps going and getting worse and getting bigger and like you feel like you’re kind of falling into a hole, I have that. I totally have worthlessness spirals. I feel that so intensely.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
You feel worthless?
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
God totally. Yeah.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
I can’t understand how that’s possible. And I’m not trying to be like, patronizing. I just don’t understand that how a woman with so much worse could feel worthless.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
This is the thing about mental health is not it’s not rational.
Jaime Primak Sullivan 28:00
Oh, well, I have an eating disorder. That is definitely not rationale.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
See? That’s the thing like you can’t I rationally understand that I have accomplished things, and I shouldn’t feel that way. I feel that way. Right? Not all the time. But that’s why I recognize the spiral. And I can tell when I get into it, right? I can feel it. It’s been like 40. It’s been long enough that I can feel that, you know, and I can go Okay, okay. You know, but I think that we spend a lot of time, like I said to you questioning whether or not what we feel is valid or real, or, you know, and then you’re just like in your own head. And when you’re in your own head, you’re not reaching out and getting the help that you need to get.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
So what do you do when you start to spiral? Can you give any, like actual advice on how to stop it?
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
Therapy, I can’t say it enough. It’s like, go talk to somebody reach out if you are feeling stressed, anxious, lonely, afraid, depressed, worthless, hopeless, any of those things you don’t want to eat or sleep, you don’t want to connect you don’t. You know, completing essential tasks, like you said, feels hard. It’s time to reach out. Like, don’t sit in that space. Don’t accept that as your reality. Either talk to a friend who you trust or find a mental health professional. This is an interesting quote; I was just working on this episode about veterans and post-traumatic stress and suicide. And you know, there’s that big connection with veterans. And I want to read you this, quote, I was just editing this. It’s so good. So this VA psychotherapist, who we interviewed, she said, when you think about it, who in your life is 100% honest with you, who truly bears witness to whatever journey you’re walking along? A therapist truly will do that. A therapist will say, okay, talk to me about this and they will listen unconditionally, and really hear you out and help you draft a map to say, Okay, what kind of journey Are you looking to take, I’m not going to tell you how to get there, but I can walk next to you and I can help draw the path with you.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs 30:00
And that’s just something we can’t do for ourselves. And I love that, right? Like, it is an unbiased kind of referee in the room to be like, Okay, I’m listening to you, I’m reflecting back what you’re saying, I don’t have a personal stake in your life, like when you get in a fight with your husband, it’s like, you still have to live with them. Like it’s, they don’t have that kind of stake in you, you know, a therapist is really unbiased. So I’d say, reach out for help if you’re going on and off meds because you think you’re “okay”. But you know, that you’re prone to spiraling. Why not just stay on the meds? We talk about this a lot on the show, too, that, you know, if you had some sort of physical thing, like a thyroid disorder or something, right? You you’re on medication, your whole life or something, right? Like and you go to your doctor and say, Okay, well, here’s your blood work. Let’s up your dose, your bloodwork isn’t looking this or that. Medication for depression and anxiety can be the same thing. We have this stigma around it in our society, like, okay, and like this is just a crutch, right? This is something I need to just get on and get off. As soon as I’m “better”. We just shift that and stop thinking in that way. And then I think we won’t go on and off our meds like that.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
Well, I have tried meds and they absolutely make everything worse for me. Way worse, the side effects for medication for me are debilitating.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
I mean, amen to that. Like that it’s great that you know that about yourself, right?
Jaime Primak Sullivan
Well, I’m not saying amen. There’s nothing I can do. Like, it’s not like I’m like, Yay, I can’t take medicine. It actually makes me scared sometimes. Because it’s not an option for me. I’ve tried different ones. Each one has worse, but I’m also the girl that like, can’t take Benadryl. Like, I can’t take anything because if there’s a listed side effect, I will have it. So the medicine, the reaction to the medicine is 10 times worse than whatever I’m dealing with. It’s just not worth it to me. So I can’t take it. Okay, so before we get to our last question, let’s take another quick break. It’s still me. So it’s like kind of a break. But is it? We’ll be right back.
Jaime Primak Sullivan 32:22
And look at that. Back we are. See that? It’s magic. Listener question number two, comes from a listener named Brittany, who reached out via email and she says, “I want to ask you for advice about my sister. She has let the things going on in our country, mostly political, consume her to the point of having a mental breakdown. She has let it interfere with her marriage as well. I am legitimately worried she is going to do something to harm herself if she doesn’t get help. How do I tell her I think she needs help without hurting her more than she already is. Our mother and I are very concerned. Jaime, please tell me what to do?
Jaime Primak Sullivan
Well, let me first say, Brittany, that I feel I know I have seen I have bore witness I have experienced felt absorbed. A fear in this country that has been associated with our political situation. unlike anything that my generation has ever experienced. It has come with a level of fear and dread and divisiveness and nastiness, and polarization and firm lines drawn and lack of empathy or intellect. It’s just the worst representation of who and what we are as a country that I in my wildest dreams. As a writer, if I was writing on the West Wing, if I was writing for fucking Sorkin, I would not have been able to dream up this imperfect storm. So if you are legitimately worried that she is going to harm herself, that is a very legitimate fear. I don’t know her but if you as her sister recognize behaviors or warning signs that she may try to hurt herself. You need to intervene.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs 34:41
Yes. This is what we’re exploring the entire second season of the show. What you’re experiencing is so common, that feeling of somebody I love is in danger and what should I do and I don’t want to make it worse and here’s something to comfort you right? That it is very, very rarely one event that leads to suicide, right? It is many factors; it is not a straight line. So like, the idea that, you know, politically everything is just like crazy right now. And because of that this is going to happen or because someone’s being bullied or because someone had a bad breakup, right? If they’re already at risk, you know, that’s one more factor that can come into play. But it’s rarely like, there’s this person and they’re doing just fine. And boom, their suicide risk, right? So, that should be comforting. And it and it is still as scary as it is as high as the number seem, it is still relatively rare. Here is what I know now is that if you see something, you must say something you must you express the concern, especially when it comes to suicide, it is so important for you to remember that you cannot put the idea of suicide into someone’s head, or cause them to want to harm themselves. Just because you ask. I think we hear that.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
Yes. Oh, Listen, my son asked me what suicide was. And I was so afraid to answer because I thought if he knew what it was, it would become an option for him. I was like terrified to tell him. And Michael was like, babe, that’s like, thinking, if you don’t talk to your kids about sex, they’ll never have it. right?
Stephanie Wittels Wachs 36:23
Or death or anything that we don’t want to talk to our kids about. I mean, my daughter, this six-year-old, the other day, we were talking about mommy’s podcast at dinner, and somebody said, Oh, yeah. And I said, Oh, yeah, the podcast about people dying. And we were all like, why, you know, this, you know, they know everything. They pick up on everything. They hear everything. You can’t like shelter them from that. So know that you’re not going to plant the seed that’s then going to cause the harm.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
She’s not going to walk away from the conversation on Oh, suicide is, maybe I should think about.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
No, it’s not going to happen.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
What is the thing that you could say? Could it be as simple as I’m legitimately concerned that you would do something to hurt yourself. And I want you to know that I will do anything to help you help yourself?
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
Yes. I am genuinely concerned that you’re going to harm yourself. Can you please tell me that you are not planning to do that? Or have you had thoughts of suicide? Yes. Have you made a plan for it? No, I would never do that. Do you know what I’m saying? Ask direct questions. You’re not going to plant the seed. If anything, it may be a real relief to them, to know that they’re not alone, that they can talk to you about this. You know, it could be comforting to them that you’re there to help them face those problems. It’s going to help you figure out how urgent it is for them to get that help. So like, I had this conversation with my dad on episode four, my dad 78. Like I said, he has Parkinson’s. He’s super depressed right now. He’s disconnected. He’s, you know, disabled. And instead of sort of tiptoeing around that, you’re supposed to ask directly, have you had thoughts of hurting yourself? Have you had thoughts of killing yourself? He was like, yeah. And I said, Well, are you going to act on them? No, of course not. And so then you go, okay. Okay, so, so he’s feeling depressed. He’s feeling this heaviness, right? And that’s normal. Like you said, You’ve never felt as bad as you feel right now, Jaime, you know, so I think always, always address it directly. Listen, and be there for them. It can be very, very frightening, Honey, I’m on a recording right now. I love you. Bye.
Jaime Primak Sullivan 38:45
Oh my God, please keep that in. It is the most human moment ever.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
Okay, I love you. Go away, go away. I know go away.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
I do love that name. Iris. You know, Brittany, thank you very much for calling in. Listen to Stephanie on this one. She’s immersed in, you know, her passion project that is the last day and that focuses on suicide. And she’s certainly knows more about what to look for and how to address it than I do.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
It’s typically one moment where you are super vulnerable, where you’re just ready for the pain to end, right? You just want it to stop. And in that moment, you know, when we talk a lot about guns in the show. And I know people have very stringent beliefs on those. The fact of the matter is if you get to that moment where you want it to end and you have access to deadly means that it can be a lethal combination, right? And so what we want to be sure of is that we are getting to that moment that we are, we have the tools in place to deal with that moment to cope with that moment so that we can get to the next one. And that’s why we need to be having these conversations.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
You know, I am very aware that suicide is an Extremely permanent decision. You don’t get to go like hey, so I feel differently now and I’d like to go back. Because you may come back as a rooster or something. And that’s, you know, not.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs 40:13
Which, frankly, at this point sounds kind of great. I might want to be a rooster,
Jaime Primak Sullivan
I don’t mind pecking at the ground and just like making a lot of noise. I feel like that’s what I do now. Kind of and I have to tell you stuff that like just talking to you. I feel like a little bit. I don’t know what it is like that. I you know, maybe like, I don’t know.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
You feel better?
Jaime Primak Sullivan
I don’t know what it is. Is it like better?
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
A little relief.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
Yeah. I feel like it’s just been nice to talk to you. It really has.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
It’s nice to talk to you.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
It’s almost like someone put my bra on the last hook. You know what I mean?
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
Oh, I do.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
You know, that’s how I feel. still wearing it. Still. I can still feel it yet, but it’s on the last hook. I can just breathe a little better.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
Yes.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
I love you guys all I have to go because I have to actually continue on my work journey for the day. But I just want to say that I’m wearing a jumper with a turtleneck. I feel like a farmhand but the girls everybody loved it. Thank you. It’s the one outfit that doesn’t give me camel toe right now. Okay, so I’m just going to go with it. Thank you. I love you, Steph. I love you. Thank you for being my guest too.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
I love you, too you for having me on. Bye.
Jaime Primak Sullivan
Bye everybody.
CREDIT
TELL ME WHAT TO DO is a production of Lemonada Media. The show is produced by Kryssy, and associate produced by Claire Jones. It’s edited by Ivan Kuraev. Music is by Dan Molad. Jessica Cordova Kramer, Stephanie Wittels Wachs and Jaime Primak Sullivan are our executive producers. Rate and review us and follow us at @LemonadaMedia on all your favorite social platforms. Of course you can follow me at Jaime Primak Sullivan on Facebook or at @jaimepsullivan on Instagram. If you have any questions for me that you want me to answer on the show, give me a call at 833-453-6662.
