Our America with Julián Castro

Nevertheless, She Persisted

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Julián and Elizabeth Warren developed a close friendship this past year – from sharing a debate stage to campaigning alongside each other in Iowa. This week, we’re joined by the Massachusetts senator, who shares her perspective on humble beginnings and making sacrifices for what you believe in. The Oklahoma native talks hope and persistence in the midst of a year that has dealt severe blows to both.  

Keep up with Julián on twitter @JulianCastro and Instagram @JulianCastroTX


Julián Castro: [00:32] I wanted to begin this week’s episode by acknowledging the loss of Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Justice Ginsburg was a brilliant jurist, an iconic pioneer for gender equality and a beacon of hope for Americans who believe that all people should be treated fairly under the law. Now, in the absence of that beacon, many find themselves in a dark place. I believe in the promise of America, but part of living in this country is also acknowledging that there are a lot of dark moments in our history. And honestly, it feels like we’re living through one of them right now. I know my heart aches as we mourn the death of Ruth Bader Ginsburg and grapple with the miscarriage of justice in the case of Breonna Taylor and cope with the loss of now more than 200,000 American lives to COVID-19. Sometimes it can seem overwhelming. And for many Americans, it’s scary to see their fundamental human rights hang in the balance. I say this not to bring you down, but to acknowledge the reality of the moment. If you’re feeling sad right now, that’s OK. If you’re feeling angry about the state of the world, that makes sense. I find strength in the legacy of RBG. She may have stood just five foot one, but she was a giant of the court who championed justice for the people who needed it most and succeeded. 

Julián Castro: [01:59] This week, I’m speaking to another champion for everyday people, Senator Elizabeth Warren. Over the past two years, I came to know Senator Warren on the campaign trail, first as her competitor and then as her supporter. She and I spoke just before Justice Ginsburg’s passing. But if our country is going to truly get on the right track after November to start working for the everyday Americans who were always the focus of Justice Ginsburg’s jurisprudence, I consider Senator Warren one of our best hopes to make it happen. I also consider her a friend. This is Our America. I’m your host, Julián Castro. 

Julián Castro: [02:55] Hey, how are you? 

Elizabeth Warren: [02:57] Are you in a closet?

Julián Castro: [02:58] I’m in my closet. Yeah. You can see Erica’s shoes. 

Elizabeth Warren: [03:02] I think it’s great. 

Julián Castro: [03:08] Well, Senator, it’s great to be with you. One of the one of the delights, one of the joys of the campaign was actually getting to know you better. Tell me a little bit about how you grew up. 

Elizabeth Warren: [03:30] So, as you know, I grew up out in Oklahoma. And even though I’m not the right age for it, I was born well after the Great Depression was over, the Great Depression hung around my family and much of Oklahoma. Oklahoma was hit by two huge blows. One, of course, was the economic depression in the 1930s. But the second was the Dust Bowl. We were a place that had one of the early environmental catastrophes. And again, very much man-made. Farmers had come in and plowed up the land and broken up the soil and the prairie grass so fine that the dust got picked up. And so we lived through the Dust Bowl. So I grew up in a family that we didn’t have much. And they always lived in the shadow of what it was like to see people, everybody, out of work, to see people who were genuinely hungry, to see all the little farms around Oklahoma. How many folks just had to pack it up and put what you could on the back of a truck and drive somewhere where there might be work. A lot of them drove out to California. There was a great migration out of Oklahoma. By the time I came along — I was the baby in the family. I have three much older brothers, the three boys, and to this day referred to as the boys. And then way later, along comes this little baby girl. 

Elizabeth Warren: [05:25] My brothers were eight, 12 and 16 when I was born. My first memory of the oldest boy, my brother Don Reed, was when he left for military service. I remember standing there with my mother when we driven him to catch the train down to Texas for his basic training at Lackland. And now I was in second grade when Mrs. Lee pulled me aside and said, Miss Betsy — everyone called me Betsy back then — you could be a teacher. And this teacher who believed in me said that I could do this. And I set my life on this course. So none of my three brothers graduated from college. My folks hadn’t. We didn’t have a family that did that. My daddy had, you know, kind of a whole series of jobs. I got on the path and this is what I wanted. I wanted to go to school so that I could be a teacher. And it oriented much of my life. And I came to understand through the years, my family didn’t have the money for me to go to college. That’s a hurtful thing for a family. So there was always kind of this scratching on how to how to make this happen. And for me, it ultimately turned out that’s a lot of twists and turns, but it started with a debate scholarship and then finish up with a commuter college that cost $50 dollars a semester at the University of Houston. And I became a special education teacher. 

Julián Castro: [07:24] You spoke very movingly on the campaign trail about the struggles that you faced as a young mother. And in fact, you told the story very lovingly about your Aunt Bea, who entered your life right at a moment where you were essentially making a critical decision about your future. 

Elizabeth Warren: [07:48] So let me set the stage. There were four girls in the family and two boys, but the four girls, my grandmother and then the four girls really ran the show. And Aunt Bea had never had children, married very late in life. And when I was born, she was nearly 50. And she’s the one I’m named after. Her name was Bessie Amelia. And when mother was thinking about naming me Betsy or Bessie, Aunt Bea said name her Elizabeth. And just to tell you how that carried on, my own daughter is named Amelia in honor of Aunt Bea. So Aunt Bea carried me home from the hospital. Aunt Bea was the one who bought me a new dress every Easter and bought me new shoes every fall. My family didn’t have much, but Aunt Bea was the one who came in with that little extra to help make sure you got what a little girl needed. And so I had made it through school. I ended up going to law school, which was all kind of amazing and its own story. I married. I’ve got two little ones and I’ve got a full-time tenure track teaching job at the University of Houston. And again, I’ll put you back in time. I was only the second woman that had ever been hired on the faculty. 

Julián Castro: [09:23] What year was this? 

Elizabeth Warren: [09:27] It was in the late ’70s and the only other woman didn’t have children. It was just a very different world. So I was so excited to have this job. I mean, I was just over the moon would not describe how excited I was about having this job. And so here I am, I’m teaching law classes. They’re hard. The preps. I’m doing the preps. Good Lord. You know, hours and hours and hours. Plus, I’m trying to manage a family here with two little ones. So, you know, it’s dinner’s late, baths at night, I’m doing laundry at 11 o’clock. But I could do hard. It was hard. But I could do hard. The part that nearly got me, though, was childcare. And in that first, of course, the first six months that I was teaching, we just cycled through one thing after another. You know, the babysitter who is going to come and just didn’t show up, the childcare center that closed, the neighbor who said, oh, I’d like to do this and decides on a Friday, you know what? This isn’t working for me. We’re not gonna do this anymore starting Monday. The childcare center just wasn’t nice and smelled funny. 

Elizabeth Warren: [10:54] And it was just it was just one thing after another. And so one night, we’re in the early spring of my first year of teaching. I’ve made it through the fall. And one night, kids are in bed, I’m doing laundry and trying to prepare classes for the next day and my Aunt Bea called from Oklahoma. I’m down in Houston. And she said, how you doing, sweetie? And I said, fine. And then just burst into tears. And I just sobbed. And finally I said to her, I can’t do this. I’m going to have to quit. And it just kind of fell out of my mouth. This job that I loved and would stay up 24 hours a day to try to get ready to — and a job, I’ll just be blunt, it wasn’t going to come around a second time. They’re very scarce. These tenure track jobs, you know, getting on the ladder.

Julián Castro: [12:06] Yeah. I mean, you were well on your way in your profession. 

Elizabeth Warren: [12:08] This was it. The big leap is getting that first rung on the ladder. And if you jump off that one, good luck to you because the odds that you’re going to get it back — they’re working against you. It’s not never. But wow, does it work against you. And I told her I just can’t do this anymore. I’m failing my children and failing. I can’t. And Aunt Bea listened to me. I just sobbed. And finally, she waits for me to calm down, get a drink of water. And she said the words that changed my life. “Well, I can’t get there tomorrow, but I can come on Thursday.” And she arrived with seven suitcases and a Pekinese named Buddy and stayed for 16 years. And without Aunt Bea, I wouldn’t be here today. 

Julián Castro: [13:06] You know that there are a lot of families that are having a moment like that right now. Especially these days, where kids are not able to go to school and so somebody has to be with the kids, trying to do remote learning. People are scrambling. Families are scrambling to put together some sort of semblance of normalcy. What do you say to those families, based on your own experience? 

Elizabeth Warren: [13:34] So this is the thing that just drives me crazy. I had trouble with childcare two generations ago. I now have grandchildren. And the problem is even harder today than it was when I had my babies. That is like the same thing, different year. It is outrageous that this is happening. And that was true before COVID hit. And now with COVID, with places having to close, with childcare centers that are having to take fewer children or up all of their costs because they’ve got to have more people, they’ve got to have more room. I mean, every part of this is disrupted. And right now, we have a federal government that just basically says, hey, that’s on you. That’s your problem, you know? And that’s why I am look at this as childcare is infrastructure. If we want people to be able to go to work, if we want people to be able to finish their educations, then we need to help make that possible. We build roads and bridges. Why? Basically so people can go to work. We build water supplies and electricity. Why? So businesses can start up and they don’t have to build everything themselves. They’ve already got electricity. They’ve already got water. We we build infrastructure because it makes our economy work. And yet for millions and millions of parents, we say you want to work? Good luck to you on figuring out how to find, and then if you do find, how to pay for childcare. 

Elizabeth Warren: [15:23] My view on this is it is time to treat childcare like infrastructure. We make that investment. That is a valuable investment to you, whether you have children or not, because it helps this economy go forward. The fact that mommies and daddies are having to make these decisions to not go to the workplace, cut back on their education, holds down GDP in this country, holds down our productivity in this country. Plus, think what it means, just you and me thinking about this. How many women my age just got knocked off the track? Because either they never tried because of the childcare or they tried and then, like me, just said, I can’t do this. And they didn’t have an Aunt Bea to come to the rescue. How many women my daughter’s age got knocked off the track? And now how many young women who — my granddaughter’s not quite old enough yet, but how many in that generation are going to be knocked off the track if we continue to treat childcare as just some kind of luxury so that millions of women — and it mostly falls on women, some dads — and you are just never given the chance to go to work? 

Elizabeth Warren: [16:49] It is time for us to step off. It’s good for our mamas and daddies and frankly, good for our children. We invest in public education. We invest in saying we’re going to have teachers who have college educations and make sure as a country that they get paid enough to be able to support a family. They treat this like a real job right now. Workers in childcare centers, God bless them one in all, many of them would be better off to go work at McDonald’s. And that’s what happened. You get a turnover in these centers. They have to leave because they’re trying to support their own families. And all of that is because parents don’t make enough money to be able to cover the full cost of childcare. If you want to make this country be a country of more opportunity and a country of higher economic growth, let’s invest as nation in childcare. 

Julián Castro: [17:49] Absolutely. 

Julián Castro: [21:09] Skip ahead a few years, and Elizabeth is working as a law professor, conducting research with a very specific focus. 

Elizabeth Warren: [21:17] My research work had moved into this question of why so many families were going broke. 

Julián Castro: [21:24] She was a diligent scholar known to travel around with her own photocopier, nicknamed R2D2, to save cash on printing. But it wasn’t just about data for her. She visited courthouses, sat in on bankruptcy hearings and talked directly to the people who were struggling. 

Elizabeth Warren: [21:43] And as you can imagine, it had this deeply personal resonance for me. My family had nearly gone broke. Other folks that I knew had gone broke. Growing up, I knew what it was like to worry that we’re going to — we’ve lost the car. Now we’re going to lose the house. And so watching this now, from the point of view of studying this is in the ’80s and into the ’90s, why were bankruptcies going up across this country? And we did the first empirical studies, my coauthors and I, and you wouldn’t be surprised at the reasons. Medical problems, job losses, a divorce or death in the family accounting for more than 90 percent of the bankruptcy. So here I am. I’m working on a question about why families go broke. I study it in bankruptcy, but I also am studying what’s happening to consumer debt, how people are getting cheated, tricked, trapped. What was happening with mortgages and how this bubble was inflating. Does this sound familiar? In the in the early 2000s and then, of course, as you know, the big crash hits. 

News reporter: [22:55] On September 15th, 2008, Lehman Brothers, the fourth largest investment bank in the world, declared bankruptcy, sparking chaos in the financial markets and nearly bringing down the global economy. 

George W. Bush: [23:07] This is an extraordinary period for America’s economy. We’ve seen triple-digit swings in the stock market. We are in the midst of a serious financial crisis. 

News reporter: [23:16] Nearly two trillion tax dollars have been shoveled into the hole that Wall Street dug. And people wonder, where’s the bottom?

Barack Obama: [23:24] And even as we dig our way out of this deep hole, it’s important that we address the irresponsibility and recklessness that got us into this mess in the first place. Much of it was due to the irresponsibility of large financial institutions on Wall Street. 

Elizabeth Warren: [23:39] I got this call from Harry Reid, who was the leader of the Senate at the time, Democratic leader, and he wanted me to do a Congressional oversight panel for that TARP bailout. So I said, sure. I mean, it was a time of emergency. I didn’t even know what this panel could do. But I jumped in. I did that. And we did a lot of reports, a lot of oversight. We were really tough, held people’s feet to the fire. A lot of folks still don’t like me over that. Mostly they’re corporate executives. I can live with that. 

Julián Castro: [24:16] You don’t have a lot of fans in the big banks. 

Elizabeth Warren: [24:20] That’s right. But part of this in this same time period is I knew that we were going to rewrite the financial rules. And I thought the door has opened just a crack. This is going to be the chance to change the laws, to just make it a little fairer for consumers. I tell you what my goal was: just so regular families don’t get cheated as much. That’s what I was looking for. So the idea behind this was this consumer agency that would be a watchdog that would be there to make sure that you didn’t get cheated on credit cards and mortgages. You didn’t get fooled on payday loans. That was the idea behind it. So while I’m doing oversight, I’m also fighting to try to get this law passed in Washington. Now, I’m not a Senator, and I got to tell you that I’m still not thinking about being one either. But at the end of the day, spoiler alert, we won. Everybody told us we wouldn’t, but we won and we got the agency through. President Obama asked me to come to Washington to run it, set it up, which I did and I loved. And it was wonderful. I can tell you all about that because it was so much fun. But the agency needed needed a permanent director and that had to be approved by the Senate. And the Republicans in the Senate told President Obama, nominate who you want, but she, Elizabeth Warren, will never be confirmed to be the head of this agency. Never. Not going to happen. I was pre-rejected. He hadn’t even nominated me. 

News reporter: [26:14] The president passed over Elizabeth Warren. She was a favorite of many consumer groups as well as Democrats. 

News reporter: [26:20] We’re seeing that her nomination could not pass the Senate given strong Republican resistance. 

Elizabeth Warren: [26:25] So I’m headed back to Massachusetts to teach school, because that’s what I did, teach my classes and continue to do my research. And it was coming up on the 2012 election. This is actually in 2011. But coming up on that, folks said to me, you know, there’s a Republican in the Senate from Massachusetts, take him on and beat him. And I was like, what, running for public office? Never. Not on my any list on yet. Not on my bucket list. Not on my grocery list, not on any list I had ever put together was run for public office. And by the way, just between you and me, why me? Part of the answer was there were a lot of Democrats in Massachusetts. There is no shortage of Democrats in Massachusetts who thought they’d make a fine senator, but they didn’t want to run against Scott Brown because he had a 65 percent approval rating. He already had a bazillion dollars in the bank. And Wall Street heads said we will open our wallets to keep you in the Senate. In other words, they looked at that and said, losing proposition. I know, let’s get her to run. 

Elizabeth Warren: [28:03] I still remember talking about it with Bruce, my husband and my kids. And at the end of the day, I thought about how am I going to feel the morning after the election if Scott Brown is still my senator in Massachusetts, voting against basically everything I hold dear. He’s not the worst person in the Senate, but he voted the wrong way on virtually everything I cared about. How was I going to feel if he was still the senator and I hadn’t done every single thing I humanly could to to try to change that? And so I jumped in the Senate race and, man, that was jumping in the deep end of the pool. But I’ll say this about it, because really the whole idea of campaigning was new to me, and how many people stepped up and said, if you’ll run, I’ll help you. And it just knocked me over. I mean, you must have had this experience yourself, where young people who just said, you know, I can volunteer on Thursdays. I know how to organize teams for doorknocking here in Worcester. And I will see to it that there are people out there for you in Worcester. 

Julián Castro: [29:46] It’s humbling and it’s inspiring. You know, and you feel a deep gratitude. 

Elizabeth Warren: [29:51] In fact, I’ll tell you a story. So I started out, I was down, I don’t know, 14 points, something like that just like forever. And then I’d kind of climb up a point or two and maybe a point or two more and then fall back down a little. And that’s how it was all during 2012. You know, from the beginning. And then on through the summer and we’re into the fall. And now it’s it’s getting to be nip and tuck. Right. It’s not there. I’m not ahead of him. But occasionally I’m within, you know, like the margin of error or whatever. And I was doing like a town hall or I’ve given some kind of speech, and these two women came up to me that I never met and they said, you’re going to win. And, you know, look, lots of people are trying to encourage you at that point. And you’ll appreciate it, because this is hard. You know, you’ve really put yourself out there. And so I just kind of smiled and I thought, OK, this is, you know, like people say. And one of the women just stopped and said, no, I’m dead certain you’re gonna win. And I said, how do you know that? And she said, because the two of us, we have been standing in the traffic circle at our town. We rearranged our work schedules so we could get out there every Friday morning and stand there with Warren signs. And we’ve been doing that since last November. And she said at first people would just go by. She said, you know, some people give you the finger. 

Julián Castro: [31:42] That’s right. Yeah. I’ve had plenty of those thrown at me on the street corner flashing my campaign sign. 

Elizabeth Warren: [31:51] She said but what’s happened over time is now we stand there in the circle, nearly everybody who comes by way waves and honks the horn and gives us the thumbs up. And what hit me at that that story was not what they were telling me, which is the change in sentiment over the space of nearly a year. What got me is these two women I had never met who changed their work schedules and had never missed a Friday, who had stood there in a traffic circle when it was freezing cold, when it was burning hot, when it was raining, when it was sleeting, who stood out there for two hours every week during rush hour because this fight was their fight. I am to this day humbled.

Julián Castro: [34:24] Hopefully our country is going to have a chance to change soon. What do you hope for our country in the years to come? 

Elizabeth Warren: [34:31] I want us to be in America where our opportunity isn’t just for those born into privilege, but opportunities for all of our kids. It’s why I’m in this fight. It’s what I believe in most. When I was born, the chances you would do better than your parents were more than 90 percent. Think about that. And I’m one of those very grateful success stories.

Julián Castro: [35:05] Yeah. I mean, we’re both the great example of that. There are a lot of people listening that are, too. But things have changed. 

Elizabeth Warren: [35:13] My daddy ended up as a janitor, but his baby daughter got a chance to be a public school teacher, got a chance to be a college professor, for goodness sakes. Got a chance to be a United States Senator. Got a chance to run for president. Today, a child has at best a 50/50 chance of doing better than their parents. How can we be a nation that in two generations, one generation has shrunk opportunity? That’s the wrong direction for us to go in. We need to be that nation that says you only had a 90 percent chance? We want to push that up to a 95 percent chance. We want to make enough investment not just in some of our kids, but in all of our kids, so that we have a real chance going forward to build a country that is ready for the 21st century, that can tackle climate, that can tackle pandemics when they come, that can deal with the enormous problems that face not just our nation, but the entire world. And the way we do that is we invest in our kids and make this happen. I want us to be the America of real opportunity. I don’t want that to be a slogan. I want it to be a reality.

Julián Castro: [36:41] Well, that’s a wonderful vision for our country. You know, I have an 11 year old daughter, Carina, and one of the most amazing things that you did along the way in the campaign was the pinky promise. I watched you with, you know, hundreds of girls and young women at different places in Iowa, New Hampshire do a pinky promise. Why did you do it? And what do you hope that each and every one of those young women got out of that?

Elizabeth Warren: [37:19] So when I did get in the Senate race, I tried to call some people who understood politics better than I did and they encouraged me. They said, you should do this. You definitely should do this, but you’re going to lose. Let me just start by saying, Democrats, you need a better sales pitch. Yes. Get out there, bust your tail and then lose. But they said no, you’re going to lose because Massachusetts is not ready to elect a woman either as senator or governor. We never had either one elected. Most people put it, whether they were male or female, the boys are just not going to let that happen. And I listened to that and it and I took it to heart, actually. I mean, mind you that the world has changed a lot even in this short period. But I took it to heart that the odds were probably weighed against me. And part of it was because I was a woman. So I decided two things about my campaign. One is every single day, every day, at least once during that day, I would get out and talk to somebody about the things I believe in. That would make this fight worthwhile. I would talk about childcare. I would talk about student loan debt. I would talk about increasing Social Security and disability payments. I would talk about housing. I would talk about racial justice. I would talk about things that get me up in the morning and keep me up at night at least once a day.

Elizabeth Warren: [38:58] And the second thing I told myself is every time I meet a little girl, I’m going to get down on one knee and I’m going to say “hello, my name is Elizabeth, and I’m running for the Senate because that’s what girls do.” And then we would do pinky promises. So it grew out of 2012. I started it just as a one-off. I just wanted to do it. Some little girls would remember. And parents started taking pictures. And then over time, parents started showing up at campaign headquarters with little girls in tow, sometimes little boys in tow, sometimes with dogs. I’ve been known to do an occasional paw promise. And wanted their pinky promise. So when I ran again in ’18, there were young women who came up to me and said, “Hi, I’m volunteering on your campaign or I ran for student council president or I’m running for my town council because here’s my picture with you and our pinky promises from six years ago.”

Julián Castro: [40:18] Wow. 

Elizabeth Warren: [40:19] So how could I not do pinky promises? Truly, pinky promises was one of the best parts of the whole campaign. 

Julián Castro: [40:30] I think about, you know, how many young women have one of those photos right now up on their wall that they took during the presidential campaign and that it may well be that one of them or some of them run for senator wherever they live or run for president in the years to come. 

Elizabeth Warren: [40:51] Let me interrupt you just to say something. Do you remember when we did the event together in New York City, that huge event? I just want to say you didn’t do it as pinky promises, but all those little boys and little girls, all those children — and many of them Latino — who were there with their mamas or daddies or their grandparents who wanted their picture taken with you. It felt like pinky promises. You may talk about it a little differently, but you’re no stranger to the story from the heart. 

Julián Castro: [41:40] Yeah, you know, one of the things I really stopped and appreciated along the way was standing on the debate stage when we were all there, as you remember, one of those stages had all, I think, 11 of us at one time. And knowing that there were a lot of little Latino boys and Latino girls that could see at least somebody that they could identify with that looked like them and think, hey, you know, maybe I can do that. I can run for president. I can be president one day. It does. It means a lot. 

Elizabeth Warren: [42:15] I think it means more than can we acknowledge. This is how we change the world. It’s not the only way. We’ve got to win, and we gonna get childcare. We’ve got to do a lot of things, but a big part of it is to be out there. And I was so proud during the presidential to stand with you. And just for all those little kids. 

Julián Castro: [42:43] Thank you. Thank you. As you well know, Senator, you know, it was a real honor to get to campaign with you and to support you after my campaign and to continue to support all of your efforts to make that kind of country come about. And I’m so happy that you had a little bit of time in what I know, even though we’re all in the middle of this pandemic, is a very busy schedule for for you and for folks in Congress. Thank you for giving us a little bit your time. 

Elizabeth Warren: [43:19] Thank you. It’s such an honor to have been able to run alongside you and to know we’re not through. We’re still going to be making a lot of changes out there. You and me, you ready? 

Julián Castro: [43:32] For sure. 

Julián Castro: [43:40] You don’t have to be president to make a difference, or even one of nine justices like Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Or one of 100 senators like Elizabeth Warren. You can be one of the hundreds of thousands of marchers in our country today raising a voice to declare that Black Lives Matter, or one of the many millions who will cast a ballot between now and November 3rd to build an America where equality becomes real. It’s encouraging to understand that we each hold this power. And in the middle of a pandemic that has hit the most vulnerable among us the hardest, it’s also comforting to know that Elizabeth Warren is still fighting each day to make America work for all of us and inspiring a generation of young Americans to live up to their own promise, too. Senator Warren is also right, the fight isn’t over. There’s still a lot of work left to do. And I know that work can seem daunting and things feel bleak right now. But we can’t lose hope and give up because there are too many people counting on us to keep fighting on their behalf. Next week, we meet some of those Americans. 

Woman: [44:47] Nobody has time to stop and do things they used to. They have to work to pay these bills off. Just constantly adding something to them. And I don’t know how some of them, they get away with it. And but I don’t like crooks. And what we’re going through here now is just something else. 

Julián Castro: [45:22] Our America is a Lemonada Original. The show is produced by Jackie Danziger. Our Associate Producer is Giulia Hjort. Kegan Zema is our editor. Music is by Hannis Brown. Executive Producers are Stephanie Wittels Wachs, Jessica Cordova Kramer and Julián Castro. Help others find our show by leaving us a rating and writing a review. Follow us @lemonadamedia across all social platforms or find me on Twitter @JulianCastro or on Instagram @JulianCastroTX


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