Paris Errands and Face Flex (with Deanna Cheng)
The second arc to SuChin’s European travels that you’ve been waiting for. She talks about the good, bad and the bike accessories of her Paris trip. Also, her friendship with travel buddy Annie shows that we all just need to find our fellow wolverines. In the second half of the show, Device Detective Deanna Cheng is hot on the trail of the NIRA. She gives us her findings on both models of this laser device that’s got her looking glowy and bouncy.
Please note, Add To Cart contains mature themes and may not be appropriate for all listeners.
To see all products mentioned in this episode, head to @addtocartpod on Instagram. To purchase any of the products, see below.
- Deanna talks about the NIRA Precision Laser and the new Pro Laser
- We’ve also covered the Omnilux and the Droplette
- Deanna is keeping us young with her new Substack newsletter How To Be Less Old
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SuChin Pak, Deanna Cheng, Kulap Vilaysack
Kulap Vilaysack 00:10
Hello and welcome back to Add To Cart I’m Auntie Kuku Vilaysack.
SuChin Pak 00:15
Bonjour [….. ] SuChin Pak.
Kulap Vilaysack 00:18
I love to, Aunt Susu.
SuChin Pak 00:22
For those tatata SuChin for those that are in Pari […..].
Kulap Vilaysack 00:30
Yes, that’s right. Su, I should say Welcome back. You’ve rejoined us after your sojourn to Europe.
SuChin Pak 00:37
Correct. My annual trek. Yes.
Kulap Vilaysack 00:39
A track. Yes. That’s it. I feel a better way to put it in like words like vacation or a break.
SuChin Pak 00:46
No, No. or No, no, no, no break. Yeah, yeah, bit. That’s I’ve lost weight. Yeah.
Kulap Vilaysack 00:53
Wow. Okay. There is a post Parris glow about you.
SuChin Pak 00:58
Kulap Vilaysack 00:59
I want to say.
SuChin Pak 00:59
Well, I don’t know why there would be I was working so hard over there, that I am now on vacation back in Santa Barbara. I have come back from my two intensive weeks of doing what I do. And I’m here now just to relax, get on my lasers in my serums like, get back into my heavy beam pillow because I had a light beam pillow. I’m now in relaxed mode. And it was a very effective and productive two weeks.
Kulap Vilaysack 01:37
What an interesting way to be.
SuChin Pak 01:41
Kulap Vilaysack 01:42
Okay, Su we got to break down your trip. I think we should start with the big problem. You mentioned in our earlier packing episode before you left. As a refresher to our listeners. You were debating between washing your underwear, or just throwing it away each time one got dirty, much like Emmy Ackerman what we do with her diapers. What was the final verdict? What did you end?
SuChin Pak 02:04
Oh, wouldn’t you like to know? And would that it’d be a simple answer. None of those things will be happening at this point. So buckle in bitches. Okay, so I left you guys hanging by the seat of your pants with this question. I went with five pairs of underwear.
Kulap Vilaysack 02:25
SuChin Pak 02:26
Okay. For a, I don’t know, 14 day trip, let’s say. Now. There were some really surprising fantastic solutions. And then there were some very devastating facts that kept me from doing what I wanted to do. So which one would you like to start with?
Kulap Vilaysack 02:47
Exciting solutions. I like to heighten.
SuChin Pak 02:50
Yeah, that’s exciting solution is that I went to Paris and then I went to Majorca it was my dear friend Diana’s 50th.
Kulap Vilaysack 02:59
What? What do you have you in Majorca? Well,
SuChin Pak 03:02
I went to Majorca and I like to do a long trip to Paris. But in the middle there. I like to just bounce somewhere else. And that’s the beauty of Europe. I don’t know if you know that it’s but it’s so very connected. Very small.
Kulap Vilaysack 03:16
Yeah, I know that part about Europe. But you Wait, hold on. Have you ever done this before in any of the Paris trips that have been through Add to Cart who ever bounced somewhere else?
SuChin Pak 03:26
I bounced last year to Tel Aviv.
Kulap Vilaysack 03:30
Did you bring this up? What are you doing? Why is this coming up? Now? What do you say I like to do this as if we know. I don’t let you keep secrets from me.
SuChin Pak 03:43
Kulap Vilaysack 03:46
Upsetting. Okay, I don’t like the secret life. That first was.
SuChin Pak 03:51
Yes, a gorging of Paris. You know what I mean? Like just a complete like demolition of Peri L’Arc de Triomphe, or just like, done laid bare. And then the second time, it was spontaneous. You know, we had done all the all the things, and then somewhere in the middle, and he was like, oh, friends of mine are in Tel Aviv. And I was like, I’ve never been sure. And so we took a quick little, like three day in the middle of break, and then came back. And so.
Kulap Vilaysack 04:23
SuChin Pak 04:24
So that kind of worked, you know, and.
SuChin Pak 04:27
SuChin Pak 04:28
Man, it just happened to be a friend of my right before we went, was like, I’m going to do my 50th in Majorca and we were like, well, that’s only a hop, skip and a jump away. So we went to Majorca for her 50th I met up with a bunch of friends there. Long story short, the hotel that we had booked, or the place that we were staying, the air conditioning was not working, and it was 300,000 degrees. And so we ended up staying with a friend of a friend of his beautiful apartment and They had a washing machine.
Kulap Vilaysack 05:02
So Wow. Yeah, because you and Annie had booked at a horrible hotel that of course didn’t have air conditioning. And you.
SuChin Pak 05:13
You don’t know yet, you don’t know yet. That’s right, we fell ass backwards into a beautiful three bedrooms two baths. Gorgeous 3000 square foot beautiful apartment that had a washing machine.
Kulap Vilaysack 05:28
SuChin Pak 05:29
So in unit. And so with that really was a delightful surprise. And because I got to wash everything and suddenly five pairs of underwear like Jesus and the loaves of bread multiplied into many pairs because I didn’t have to worry about it. You know, I could just go out and then come back wash and go out the next day.
Kulap Vilaysack 05:54
So, So you just.
SuChin Pak 06:01
Get the parable. Yeah, I love, correct.
Kulap Vilaysack 06:05
supposed to be I just want to like you just got to get us.
SuChin Pak 06:09
Like, but when you’re traveling. Like I’m traveling. I mean to come across a washing machine. It’s I mean, that’s the purple unicorn in the sky.
Kulap Vilaysack 06:21
For SuChin that’s the oasis in a desert.
SuChin Pak 06:23
Yeah, I was not expecting that and so.
Kulap Vilaysack 06:26
The flip side though, what was devastating about the situation?
SuChin Pak 06:29
Well, what’s devastating about the situation is when I got back in Paris, I went through all my clean underwear. Two things. I was like, Okay, so I’m washing it in the sink. Turns out for some strange, glorious reason, when we were there in July, Paris was freezing cold and raining. And so my underwear would not dry. It was just like meal doing.
Kulap Vilaysack 06:50
Oh, no. Oh, no.
SuChin Pak 06:53
So then that didn’t work. And so then I now I’m throwing it out and having to because at that point, I didn’t want to throw out the underwear. I am not an idiot. I can take dirty laundry home. You know, I don’t want to you know, I don’t want people to think that they’re just walking around like just like tossing bras and underwear and socks willy nilly. But what am I going to do with moist wet underwear at that point?
Kulap Vilaysack 07:23
Now just review. My assumption is though, you are staying in an underground cave, is that.
SuChin Pak 07:28
Okay? We’ll get to that in a second. So it didn’t dry. So then I was like, that’s fine. I will go buy underwear. So I went to the target of Paris, Monoprix. And it turns out that French people do not love a lot of fabric around their underwear. I searched high and low. The closest I could come was a high bikini. I don’t even know what that is how that’s different than a regular bikini. But it from the picture. It looked like it went a little bit higher than underneath the belly button. You know? And it did it like hit my belly button. That part was covered. But that underwear was stringing up my butt the whole time.
Kulap Vilaysack 07:38
And just like that.
SuChin Pak 08:07
Kulap Vilaysack 08:09
That’s what was the most devastating to SuChin Pak.
SuChin Pak 08:19
Oh, it was it was I would I was I was in the middle of the night getting up and angrily taking the underwear off and just throwing it. It was so annoying. Even in my sleep. It was going up my butt. I was like, I’m not even what am I doing? I’m just laying here. How am I how do I have a wedgie? A French wedgie?
Kulap Vilaysack 08:38
Not to mention, her mode of transportation, of course, is a lime bike. So imagine that panties. Just so uncomfortable.
SuChin Pak 08:49
But that’s what I’m saddled with now. Now I’ve got two packs of, you know, high cut bikini underwear. I don’t know what to do with this. It’s a crisis. Like, it feels like such a waste. I like I feel like I’m back to wearing you know, Junior sweatpants from Amazon and becoming this person it’s terrible. And so anyway, so that was sort of the devastating thing that we’re both the light and the dark. Wow. So I hope I answered your question. And anybody else who had that question, all three of you, who are on this call, by the way, because nobody cares about.
Kulap Vilaysack 09:24
I disagree. I disagree Su.
SuChin Pak 09:28
So that was that.
Kulap Vilaysack 09:29
So that was that.
SuChin Pak 09:30
In terms of the hotel? I know again, that’s another cliffhanger. Yeah.
Kulap Vilaysack 09:35
Because you were saying.
SuChin Pak 09:36
And boy, I have to control myself from sending you pictures because I wanted to wait to see your face. You know when I told you this in person now. Am I staying in nicer hotels? No. Did I stay in a hotel? That’s not a hotel, but has an S in it, which is called a hostel? I did stay in a hostel And I am happy to report this time around, because I can learn from my mistakes. Every time I checked into a new hotel, I asked the question in English because I don’t know it in French doesn’t have a window. And I do have to say most everybody was very confused at this question. But they replied, Yes, this has a window. So I am happy to report on this trip. Every single hotel that I stayed that had one, at least one working window.
Kulap Vilaysack 09:44
SuChin Pak 09:48
And that is the truth. Now this one, I checked into a hotel and he said, yeah, it has a window, but it’s overlooking a parking lot. And I said, Fine, parking lot. Don’t care what the view is, as long as there’s a window and so I have now learned hot tip that if you’re going to go bargain basement on your hotel, ask questions. Number one, does it have its own bathroom? Does it have a window? There? And now you’re you’re fine. You’re completely?
Kulap Vilaysack 11:07
Yes. most people Su, when they’re looking for bargain basement prices are not actually staying in basements. And so this may be very particular to to you. I just want to throw that out there.
SuChin Pak 11:19
Well, I would say that the basement rooms are the bargain prices. So I would say ask for a window.
Kulap Vilaysack 11:27
SuChin Pak 11:27
Ask for a window because guess what, if you don’t ask for it, you’re not gonna get one.
Kulap Vilaysack 11:31
Closed mouths don’t get fed. Okay, I like to cry here.
SuChin Pak 11:36
But, you know, I mean, there’s not much to say about my trip to Europe, other than it was like every other trip to Europe, it was hard work. I lost weight. I didn’t eat very well, because we were on the move. We were working so hard. I barely slept. I got an eye exam. I got what prescription lenses I there were a bunch of buttons on things that we had to get the buttons we went to do that, you know, just errands all day long, that is what we do in Europe, it doesn’t feel like a vacation to me or to most people that would be coming along on such a trip.
Kulap Vilaysack 12:14
Okay, let’s break it down. Alright, let’s let’s start with give us some overview of like your shopping.
SuChin Pak 12:21
Right? Well, okay, I mean, I do a lot of children’s shopping.
Kulap Vilaysack 12:28
SuChin Pak 12:29
For Soey, for all the babies in my life or my kids. Yes for Eme. I so I like to do the kid stuff because they just do kid stuff. So cute.
Kulap Vilaysack 12:42
SuChin Pak 12:43
Over there. And it’s different. It’s has a little bit of a different you know, has a little bit of a Jewish and has a little, little tweak, and that was a big hit. But I’m also doing a lot of like you said like a lot of home wares. A lot of hardware stuff. You know, a lot of bike gear.
Kulap Vilaysack 12:59
I thought we were pulling back from hardware No, or is that just.
SuChin Pak 13:02
We are pulling back. We are pulling back. I bought less. But it’s not to say that I didn’t go into many hardware stores.
Kulap Vilaysack 13:10
What did you buy at the hardware stores?
SuChin Pak 13:13
Yeah, well, I bought a lot of bike stuff. You know, I bought bikes seat covers for when it rains, I bought things that you strap on, like, I don’t know what it is like you strap onto your bike, and then you can it’s like an insulated thing and you can put snacks in there for the kids and cold drinks and it keeps everything cold. And I thought that was very cute.
Kulap Vilaysack 13:35
Okay, okay, now you mentioned a lot of bike accessories. Now, last Paris trip you said that you ride bikes in Paris, but in Santa Barbara, you do not have you changed your lifestyle. Okay,
SuChin Pak 13:47
No, no, no, no, no, no, I know. I don’t. I thought. It’s just so hard to resist. When you’re there, you’re like, caught up in the moment you’re swept up, you’re wearing a high cut bikini and then you’re like, oh, this snap bag is insulated and covered. In daisies. You want to raise yourself up. And for instance, like bungee cords. I understand. We’ve talked about bungee cords. I love I love a French bungee cord. They come in so many different lengths, but the patterns, they’re just whimsical because I don’t know if Parisians are doing what I do with bungee cords, but they seem to be everywhere. And I always pick up a pair of bungee cords.
Kulap Vilaysack 14:32
What do you do with bungee cords? What are you up to with bungee cords?
SuChin Pak 14:35
Because when I’m shopping and I’m having these big bags and they’re in the lime bike, the lime bike basket is is very generous compared to other bikes I have compared it but it’s not as big and so at some point during the day, if you don’t want to do a drop off, that’s what we call when you go back to the hotel and do a drop off of your goods. You got a bungee cord it and so bungee cords are always and I knew that I wasn’t going to bring my bungee cords from last year because I was going to encounter some lovely bungee cords so things like that. I’m also I love soft boiled eggs. I don’t know if you know that about me Kulap. And I love egg cups. I can’t stop buying them. I got some wooden ones last year this year I got some neon with some texture it I got really adorable silver butter knives that are just used for butter. And they’re like little mini and I got one for me and one for sewing because we love butter.
Kulap Vilaysack 15:30
Oh, that’s adorable.
SuChin Pak 15:31
Kulap, these are these are things that yeah, these are things that I know as I’m buying them. Like I realized that things aren’t even like these aren’t your typical things that you go to Paris to shop for. But I like to do this. I like to run the errands I like to get into the nitty gritty I would say I become a Parisian.
SuChin Pak 15:50
Ah, okay, like, like, if I were to live in Paris.
SuChin Pak 15:55
This is what I would be doing.
Kulap Vilaysack 15:56
Uh huh. Were you wearing a mask the entire time?
SuChin Pak 15:59
Oh, my God. First of all, no one not one single person in Europe is wearing a mask. I don’t know if that comes as a shock. Does that come as a shock to us Americans and not one on on a train a plane?
Kulap Vilaysack 16:11
SuChin Pak 16:12
Nowhere. Are people not wearing masks here? I kind of feel like they’re not right.
Kulap Vilaysack 16:17
Yeah. Less people in LA. There’s maybe like 15% or so wearing masks? I would say.
SuChin Pak 16:23
So.Yeah. But But I still see the 15% like nobody’s staring at me bug eyed when I go into a whole foods with my mascot.
Kulap Vilaysack 16:29
Yeah, in California, but any other state maybe different.
SuChin Pak 16:32
Maybe, Yeah. This is interesting, this mask thing because I did feel like I did feel ridiculous. At times. It was raining. And your mask, and I’m on a bike. And so the mask thing was difficult. I would have it in my pocket. And I would you know what it was it was like, I feel safe. And this is completely subjective. There’s no science to it. And I felt like a little bit. You know what I mean?
Kulap Vilaysack 16:59
SuChin Pak 16:59
I felt like there were just a little bit too many people, not enough air circulation. The mask is on. So it was kind of like on and off. But yeah, and nobody was wearing masks. They were still pretty aggressive and terrible about it. I mean, I knew that going in. I think last year I was kind of in shock and how rude they were.
Kulap Vilaysack 17:18
Let’s talk about clothes. There’s two things that you said you called out that you couldn’t promise that you wouldn’t buy more blue and white, long sleeved button up shirts. And you said you wouldn’t buy any jeans? What happened?
SuChin Pak 17:34
Well, by the skin of my teeth hanging on, not one blue and white shirt.
Kulap Vilaysack 17:40
SuChin Pak 17:41
And not one pair of jeans? I? Yes. Wait, let me think. Let me think I bought other striped things. Okay.
Kulap Vilaysack 17:56
SuChin Pak 17:57
But they were not blue and white.
Kulap Vilaysack 17:58
Oh, they were black and white?
SuChin Pak 18:01
Were they were one is neon green and blue.
Kulap Vilaysack 18:07
SuChin Pak 18:10
And it’s a […..]. And so I looked at a lot. And you know, of course, I’m telling Annie this and she was like, she was very actually quite supportive of this. She was like you said, you would not buy I did try on a pair of jeans. What happens with pants and with jeans, in particular, because there’s very little good is that they somehow fit when you’re there. And then when you get here, something about the air pressure. When you land you’re 10 times bigger than when you try it on the jeans. And so not one single pair of jeans that I bought last year in Europe has made the cut.
Kulap Vilaysack 18:44
I mean, and another take though another take is that when you basically what you’ve been describing in the last sort of 20 minutes, is that you are in sort of a constant manic cycle. And you are either running around riding a bike like it’s that game show Supermarket Sweep, your supermarket is all of Paris, and you’re barely eating and so you’ve lost weight and then you return to Santa Barbara and you eat like a normal person.
SuChin Pak 19:15
Kulap Vilaysack 19:16
SuChin Pak 19:17
I just, yeah, that’s actually probably you’re right, because I’m thinking back and there’s no regular meals. You know, Dan Adhoot is the host of Green Eggs, and Dan came on our show, and there was a group text and I said jokingly, I’m going to Paris are there actually restaurants in Paris question mark.
Kulap Vilaysack 19:38
Cause you know, Dan Adhoot, if you read his book, that you are basically it’s like talking to Jason Mantzoukas about packing okay, like you are just getting.
SuChin Pak 19:47
He was so upset. He was so so so upset. And he was throwing out like it will if you’re gonna go to a bakery, go to this bakery. If you’re gonna do you know, he said.
Kulap Vilaysack 19:57
Did you go to this bakery and make that your Panera.
SuChin Pak 20:00
Correct and I responded to the group texts with pictures of yogurt on towels baguettes on knees. I mean, we ate in some restaurants, if you could call it that, you know we ate in some places that were indoors. But not one reservation. Many meals, I would say last three days, we ate pretty much all our meals out of handbags and on towels in the hotel. And perfectly fine. Perfectly fine, survived.
Kulap Vilaysack 20:35
Now, SuChin, I have a question. Naomi and Adam Scott came over the other day that say hi to Eme. And we’re talking about Paris. We’re talking about SuChin in Paris, and Adam had a question he asked me about you was like, does she go to a museum?
SuChin Pak 20:50
Oh, well, you can tell Adam, I did go to a museum store to buy an umbrella because it was raining. And we were riding by the Museum of Natural History. And Annie goes, Oh, we can get an umbrella in there. And so I walked into a museum store, and I bought an umbrella. I mean, okay, museums, let’s talk about museums. Do you like museums?
Kulap Vilaysack 21:20
I do. I do like museums.
SuChin Pak 21:23
Gosh, I don’t know. I feel oh God. As soon as I walk into a museum, I’m immediately so fatigued that I can barely keep my eyes open. And I have to go to the bathroom. And.
Kulap Vilaysack 21:38
It’s because you can’t touch right cause, you can’t rifle you can’t buy anything. Yeah, you can’t rifle through and swat at David’s penis and put your grubby grubby yogurt hands all over the paintings like you can a thrift store or a hardware store. Yeah, tactile person.
SuChin Pak 21:58
Yeah, I’m looking at these paintings. I’m like, I mean, it’s in a book isn’t it? I mean it’s on Instagram the book. What do you what is this What am I what am I getting a smell sense from it like it’s a visual medium. Okay, well, I can visual it online. I can visual it in a book. What do I what am I getting here? What am I getting here?
Kulap Vilaysack 22:21
Nothing is what is being.
SuChin Pak 22:24
I don’t know. It just It would never crossed my mind to go into a museum.
Kulap Vilaysack 22:30
Okay, what did we get at the pharmacies?
SuChin Pak 22:32
I picked up whimsical things. I’m looking right now in my laundry basket. And.
Kulap Vilaysack 22:38
What do we see?
SuChin Pak 22:40
Kulap Vilaysack 22:42
So now you you’ve established prior that your friend Annie was like that was her thing is like sets of pajamas.
SuChin Pak 22:50
Oh my god, this girl. I don’t even understand. And I understand a lot of weird obsessions. Obviously I’m a walking weird obsession. But her obsession with pajamas is who wears this many pairs of pajamas. For what? We cannot pass a pajama store. She cannot I mean, straw hats. There were seven hats on her possession. By the end of the trip, seven hats, two giant straw hats. We had to fashion some sort of like, rig with a ribbon that we found somewhere and she had to wear it around her neck. Like a Venetian boatman, because they were it was such a pain in the ass to carry the Straw Hats. So we went into this pajama store and I got just caught up and I said again, can I live up to this version of myself?
Kulap Vilaysack 23:37
SuChin Pak 23:38
And so I bought myself a beautiful pair of pajamas.
Kulap Vilaysack 23:42
What are they look like?
SuChin Pak 23:44
They’re cotton. They’re beautiful print.
Kulap Vilaysack 23:47
Are they long are they.
SuChin Pak 23:49
They’re long? They’re long sleeve there have a men’s style but in a very feminine pattern. And I don’t know I just watched them. And they’re here for me.
Kulap Vilaysack 24:00
Uh huh. But we haven’t gotten mine yet.
SuChin Pak 24:03
No. And do I regret it?
Kulap Vilaysack 24:06
Yes, you do. I can tell.
SuChin Pak 24:09
Kulap Vilaysack 24:11
They weren’t cheap. Well, but But how about this? Can I just throw this at you? You can wear your turtleneck underneath the top.
SuChin Pak 24:19
Kulap Vilaysack 24:19
Tuck them in your darn tufts.
SuChin Pak 24:21
Kulap Vilaysack 24:21
And there you go. That’s a compromise.
SuChin Pak 24:23
I’m thinking about is it is this an outfit that I can wear out?
Kulap Vilaysack 24:27
Interesting. Now you say that that’s interesting because you’re you plan on going out and is a thing like to dinner or.
SuChin Pak 24:34
I’m just saying you know out and about running errands like his pajamas chic. You know, like, can I get away with that? Probably not.
SuChin Pak 24:42
SuChin Pak 24:42
But I’m just trying to think of different ways much like the French cuts. What do I do with this that doesn’t feel like I have to change my lifestyle but I can still make use of it. So TBD on the pajamas and like I caught up and she was like you have to have a pair of pajamas. I cannot watch you Where what you’re wearing to bed. It’s so sad. It’s depressing. You’re not that old. I feel bad. Just fine. Take the pajamas on vacation so other people don’t have to see you put on this sad, tired outfit at night. And so I felt, yeah, I felt like that was a fair, you know what I mean? Assessment and I said, fine for your benefit and anyone else’s benefit. I’m not going to look sad and tired. So that’s kind of what I’m thinking. These are like my vacation pajamas. Other people? Yes, I have to. I have to share rooms or I have to be around people that you know, around the pajama time I am presentable.
Kulap Vilaysack 25:36
Yeah. And undoubtedly, you will say that this is not who I am. You’ll give a full explanation. You’ll talk about what you normally wear.
SuChin Pak 25:43
I mean, who am I, Emily in Paris I mean, come on email, like, this is ridiculous. It was a little bit of a farce. But I was willing to do it for a friend who was like, I cannot look at you in what you’re wearing to bed. It is depressing me.
Kulap Vilaysack 25:58
To hear the two of you. The way that you go speak with this. You’re talking about being your restraint this time, but that you had to like bungee cord, your suitcase. She’s got to like she’s got all these straw hats and all his pajamas as if you were lizard people that live in the middle of the earth and have to gather all you can for this time and scurry back to your molten lava Center home. Like it’s so wild.
SuChin Pak 26:31
This standard standards are where we draw the line.
Kulap Vilaysack 26:35
Not just the line. It’s the entire painting. It’s not just that one line SuChin.
SuChin Pak 26:43
That’s it on the last night. We had one less towel dinner, and I had I had not had a jumbo and bear which is a ham and butter or ham and cheese sandwich that.
Kulap Vilaysack 26:56
SuChin Pak 26:57
That you know Paris’s yeah famous for for whatever reason. The days were going fast. Again, it was raining the entire time. So it just kind of threw us off of our game a bit, you know, and we were scurrying around a lot more usual then. And so she was like, Well, you’ve gotten that with jumbo and bear it. So the last night we bought a bed yet. We bought some ham. And then she bought butter. I have the butter knife. And I’m just sitting here like spreading butter on a baguette putting ham on it thinking like we bought a stick of butter. You know, like for dinner like this is the I’m just trying to understand, like, how did we get here. And so I leave and she’s still in Paris. And then she’s continuing through Europe with her straw hats, and her five pieces of sheepskin rug. And when I called her the next night because I was like, oh, wondering, you know how everything was going. She was like, I’m still eating. She’s trying to make her way through the butter. And I just thought, you know, I’ve found my person.
Kulap Vilaysack 28:03
She’s your soulmate.
SuChin Pak 28:04
You know, like two Wolverines.
Kulap Vilaysack 28:06
That’s right in a darkness. Right. And Wolverine Yeah, have found each other normally they’re not social beings, but you too, you too.
SuChin Pak 28:17
And our claws. Our claws are such that when we’re out where they’re useful, but when we’re together, we can just make them limp enough so we can sit side by side.
Kulap Vilaysack 28:29
They retract. Oddly, for whatever reason, scientists can’t figure it out. But the beastly Wolverine. When these two come together, they retract and they eat butter, couple of butter Wolverines.
SuChin Pak 28:43
I’m going to give you just one example. I’m going to leave you with one perfect example of how this symbiotic Wolverine relationship works. We go into a sunglass shop. And I have been wanting to get new prescription glasses, and we walk into the sunglass shop and they happen to have beautiful frames for prescription glasses that I’m like, these are perfect. These are the kinds of frames that I want at a perfectly decent price. I was like going to the register. And I would never think to ask but she says she asked the person she’s like, Oh, do you guys do eye exams? And the lady’s like, yeah, we do. Actually. They’re free. And she says, how quickly can you get lenses made? And she was like, I can have it to you by tomorrow morning. So the next thing you know, I’m sitting in Spain, getting my eyes examined. Say I wouldn’t go that far. I wouldn’t say can you examine my eyes and make lenses in 12 hours? Like, do you know what I mean? So together as two Wolverines, we attack and we procure things that I alone could never I would never even think to ask.
Kulap Vilaysack 29:49
SuChin Pak 29:50
Could you examine my eyes.
Kulap Vilaysack 29:51
Annie takes care of you. Annie takes care of Su?
SuChin Pak 29:56
Kulap Vilaysack 29:57
Su? Su Su Su. Look, you know, I’m obsessed with you. You know that we all have obsessions. You know Annie has PJs and straw hats you have the hardware situation you described a bungee cords. I Kuku is obsessed with Susu and so thank you so much for this rundown.
SuChin Pak 30:17
Till next year [ …. ]
Kulap Vilaysack 30:25
Okay you’re just saying word.
Kulap Vilaysack 30:36
Carter’s we have one more very important thing to discuss before we go. And that is the latest and greatest in skincare tech here to give us the lowdown is our resident expert at all things lasers and led mask. In past episodes, she’s inspected the Omni Lux and the droplet today she’s investigating the NIRA. You know her you love her. She looks great in a trench Add to Cart. Device detective Deanna Cheng.
SuChin Pak 31:08
Oh my goodness. Just in time, you know, back to school. back to life. Here you are. You’re gonna raise us from the dead.
Kulap Vilaysack 31:19
Fresh faced, looking like summer treated you right with these tendrils of golden locks. face a glow. Detective Deanna Chang, welcome back to the show.
Deanna Cheng 31:30
Wow. Well, guys, it feels really good to be here. I have you guys are seeing me in my new zoom corner and one of my lights is shorting out on me we have to move forward.
Kulap Vilaysack 31:40
The light setup is signature right SuChin. It’s a signature clearly, you know, it’s a polisher.
SuChin Pak 31:47
Share. It’s a bike shed. As soon as we saw you on the Zoom, I said it that is polisher lighting, if I’ve ever seen lighting, number one, and it’s shorting not because of polisher , but now probably have so many devices plugged in to your electric grid box that you can only hold so much, right?
Deanna Cheng 32:08
We have to have everything charged and ready to go. That is one of the things that’s a little tricky about having all your gadgets is making sure they’re charged.
Kulap Vilaysack 32:19
That’s right. If you you don’t have to get ready if you stay ready.
Deanna Cheng 32:24
I’ll tell you what, guys, I am so happy to be here. It feels really good.
Kulap Vilaysack 32:30
Now for listeners who’ve just joined us in this episode, you know, we mentioned some of the devices you brought to us. These are, you know, high grade spendy. But you’re here to tell us if they’re worth it or not. And you know what’s been worth it with the segment is that every time we’ve been here, Su and I have gotten free product.
SuChin Pak 32:50
So whenever Deanna loves the product, we say we love it too, and they send us these things. I mean, Deanna it’s like a gift that keeps on giving.
Deanna Cheng 33:02
I don’t know how this has happened and how I’ve like managed to find my way into this area. But I’m alive. I’m thriving. It’s like God blessing as.
SuChin Pak 33:15
Exhilarating. Yes. Now this laser device is a little more intense. So just a disclaimer. These are just our opinions before you use any device. Always check with your doctor and do your own research.
Deanna Cheng 33:34
We are looking at the NIRA today and I have been using you know my feeder, we always gotta give props to our feeder and that’s Andrey Han flashy. So Angie in the fall, Angie brought the NIRA to the people.
SuChin Pak 33:52
Deanna Cheng 33:53
And she was like guys, and she tested all she puts the device detective to shame. She tests every single device on the market. And usually she says, pass this time, she was like, run. So what did I do, I ran, I ran.
SuChin Pak 34:11
Now we want to say right up at the front, the NIRA that we are talking about today because they have several devices. It’s $599. Let’s, before you go, let the Hang on. Hang on. Because Deanna is here to tell us about what this is and why this price is worth it.
Deanna Cheng 34:37
Great. So I came in on the smaller laser. It’s called the NIRA precision small that’s what was out in the fall. That is $449.
SuChin Pak 34:50
And you were happy with that you liked it.
Deanna Cheng 34:52
Like the price.
SuChin Pak 34:53
Deanna Cheng 34:56
I loved the device
SuChin Pak 34:58
Deanna Cheng 34:59
And I’d love to go We’re like the differences. There’s two lasers the precision small and the Pro. We are talking pro today but it’s we have to go through the precision to get to the pro. There’s no other way. There’s no way to go to the pro without talking about the precision. Okay, so this small and I have it here to show you it in terms of the the two lasers, they look extremely similar in the body. The main difference is the nozzle.
SuChin Pak 35:32
So the amount of laser that’s coming out.
Deanna Cheng 35:35
SuChin Pak 35:35
Deanna Cheng 35:36
So the precision small was made, and clinically trialed and proven just for the eye area in terms of when they put it out. And so it is 40 beeps per eye that is like what you’re supposed to be doing is 40 little beeps around one eye and then it kind of goes off and then you do the second eye boom.
Kulap Vilaysack 36:02
I wish I was joking. I got scared for SuChin, when we when you said that it was about eyes SuChin do an ATM both eyes she’s like I.
SuChin Pak 36:12
I learned I am scared too. But I have learned and and I’m I’m better for it. And Deanna you’ve taught me the way that doing it correctly is better than doing it incorrectly a lot. And who knew at this age, I can still learn these things, do you think it correctly.
Deanna Cheng 36:33
Is better than incorrectly because they have gone ahead and done the clinical trials, they went ahead and put that money into it, you know, they want you to win they want like in when you go into an audition, the casting director does want you to get the job, they do want you to have a good experience and nice results. And it works a little differently then the pro in just the way you have to activate it. So there’s a power button and then you find your level. And the level thing is actually really interesting because a lot of people were like I’ve seen so many people saying hey, I can’t go above level two, there’s five levels and what I think it is I think these are marketed to women who are older and once you’re like if you’re in your 60s using it and you don’t have a lot of collagen you know your collagen is lower it is going to hurt more.
Kulap Vilaysack 37:31
SuChin Pak 37:32
Okay wow oh five levels five levels to get to that’s pretty impressive though that these devices are that powerful that it to.
Kulap Vilaysack 37:40
God, I’m terrified. I’m terrified for SuChin like she SuChin, is at the edge of her seat and I just feel so .
SuChin Pak 37:47
I’m like do I start at five? Start at five and work my way down?
Deanna Cheng 37:53
That’s a different approach. Yeah, started five and then go down. Well, here’s the thing I kind of took the lead from some of the comments and I was really starting at a three and I would find that you know if I did it on my cheeks, I could do a five but when I was going around my eye it was like giving a little sort of snap. And I mean I say that within reason but you felt it you know what I mean? You felt it and so I would bring that down to a three and I usually stated a three guys I’m at a five on everything now.
SuChin Pak 38:28
Oh you can work up to a five.
Deanna Cheng 38:30
Well because you’re building that collagen.
SuChin Pak 38:33
Wow look at her drop in. Drop in into the gym like a fucking pro. Guide.
Kulap Vilaysack 38:43
SuChin Pak 38:45
Are we here. Are we here? Just so Deanna could tell everyone that she’s at a five every.
Kulap Vilaysack 38:53
I mean it’s a flex it’s a face flex.
SuChin Pak 38:57
But but you’ve gotten your that How long did it take to get you to that five?
Deanna Cheng 39:03
SuChin Pak 39:04
Deanna Cheng 39:05
You know, it was several months and I think that I just stayed on the thread with oh, I can just I’m a three girly you know, for a while. And then I just tried it at a four and I was like oh, and then I and then I’m over and on up to that five so.
SuChin Pak 39:18
Oh my god that collagen is building up. Supporting you.
Deanna Cheng 39:23
Yes, it is building and that like listen when you’re dealing with and I love that SuChin when you said you know you used your Omni locks and you didn’t see anything at first and that’s the name of the game. When you’re sitting at a dermatologist. They’re gonna shoot you up with some Botox and fillers. Guess what, you’re gonna see that right away. Okay. When you’re trying to play with collagen. When you’re building your own bodies, like your reasons.
SuChin Pak 39:53
She’s upset, she’s upset.
Deanna Cheng 39:55
Your own body don’t get anxious Don’t be looking so hard.
SuChin Pak 40:02
Wait, are you talking about eating? Are you talking about the NIRA? I’m sorry.
Deanna Cheng 40:07
I’m talking about literal chemical reactions that you are doing in your home in your own home. In the comfort of your home.
SuChin Pak 40:18
Deanna Cheng 40:18
Yeah, yeah. Okay. So it takes a while. It takes months before your real and now they say 90 days, you’re gonna see some changes. And I do agree with that. But I think if you’re trying to be in the college and building game in your own home, give yourself get your brain around six months get your brain around a year for like, Oh, wow. You know, like.
SuChin Pak 40:40
Oh, wow, wow, okay.
Deanna Cheng 40:46
Get their heads, right. Yeah.
Deanna Cheng 40:58
So that’s the precision, I’d love to move to the pro. Let’s see if I could. I love it. Okay, when I saw this, and I reached out to you guys, and I was like, Hi, girls, girl, something bigs happened here something big happened. We have a new NIRA laser, and the mouth on this guy is so wide and glorious compared to the little baby precision mouth. Now, this one, I mean, we are moving at such a pace, this is called surface area. Okay. And time is money. So.
SuChin Pak 41:43
I mean, they should be teaching this, they should be offering this course, you know, on the syllabus on the syllabi. Okay, so the surface area of this thing, obviously, it’s much bigger than the precision. We’re talking like, four times.
Kulap Vilaysack 42:00
Yeah, he’s more. Five. Yeah.
Deanna Cheng 42:02
Kulap Vilaysack 42:05
Deanna Cheng 42:05
It’s six times bigger guys. I feel I feel six. I feel I can get six of these in here.
SuChin Pak 42:11
So this is so that you can work on so many areas of your face and a faster time.
Deanna Cheng 42:17
Yeah. And they are now you know, with their clinical trials, what was cosign for on the eye, but they’re not saying, Oh, this is more, quote unquote, powerful than the precision. This is a surface area game. This is a time game change. Okay, this is about surface area. I know I’ve said it once. I’m gonna say it again. I’ll probably say it one more time. And the precision is more about, you know, smaller areas. So if you have surgical.
Kulap Vilaysack 42:50
Even like it’s more surgical.
Deanna Cheng 42:52
Yeah, yes. Okay, so now we’re talking Pro. So when I saw this hit the market, I freaked I ran, I ran to Add To Cart and I said, guys, like I want it. I don’t want to spend $600.
SuChin Pak 43:08
Deanna Cheng 43:10
But I want it and I would. Now I also own the other ones. So it’s kind of like, again, time surface area, I can still do what I need to do with the smaller version just six times longer, just six times longer. There are some little changes. Not having to hold your thumb is like not the biggest deal in the world. But it’s nice when you put this on and SuChin and I know you attempted this. So I want to go through. I’m curious what you did do because I it’s on right. I have it on level five. I’m not scared. I’m gonna put on my face. I hear that beep and move in it.
SuChin Pak 43:55
Okay. Oh. So you just move it. So you put it on your.
Deanna Cheng 43:58
Next move in it.
SuChin Pak 43:59
You just move it over and.
Deanna Cheng 44:01
You just move it. That’s it. It’s good to kind of overlap it you know, you’re not going to if you like hit the same exact spot twice. You’ve got all because it it has warmed up the skin and then you’re warming it up again. And you’ll get that Ouch. It’s not crazy, but I find that even if I’m overlapping I’m not getting the Ouch I set a little timer on my phone today when I went to use it and for the entire face. It was seven minutes and 30 Something seconds. Entire face block and that’s really getting over everything. How do you feel about that time run.
SuChin Pak 44:41
No, that’s amazing.
Deanna Cheng 44:42
I mean, that’s the difference between the Pro and then the precision because seven minutes for your entire face. Is that a breeze?
SuChin Pak 44:50
Deanna Cheng 44:50
And I bet you I could cut that time a little bit more if I was like really trying to but just at ease at rest seven minutes. 30 seconds. Just casual.
Kulap Vilaysack 45:01
You know, I’m trying to game how SuChinis going to destroy her face with this. And I do actually think that that because you said there is possibly an out she does respond to pain. If there’s anything she responds to is pain, pain might actually work for her because she’ll know like, ouch.
SuChin Pak 45:20
I saw this, I tried to read the instructions. Hmm. And I.
Deanna Cheng 45:26
What is it? I may have because I was familiar. I may have breezed past them. But what did they what happened in 30.
SuChin Pak 45:33
I got to wash and dry your face great power on device and learn reject tone. It’s shaky. I heard reject tone. And I said I’m not sure what that is. Okay, so rejection tone indicates the device tip is not in full contact with the skin. And I said, No, thank you. What is this? Okay, so, kind of walk us through the rejection to how okay, I’ve powered it on one. Yeah. How does this work?
Deanna Cheng 46:02
Yeah, if I was do if I had it sort of cockeyed on my face. Not flat. Yeah, it goes ehhhh.
SuChin Pak 46:11
Okay, so there’s beeps there’s a beep you’re doing great move on and that “ehhh” it hasn’t contacted enough of the skin so it’s really kind of teaching you and making sure that the laser is hitting the layers of your skin in a way that’s gonna be beneficial. Okay,
Kulap Vilaysack 46:30
Now that that to me is like this may be the device for SuChin because as we all know, she responds best to critique.
Deanna Cheng 46:37
And is constantly trying to get an A+.
Kulap Vilaysack 46:40
Guilt and shame, get me in line.
Deanna Cheng 46:43
Now, I personally have never had a dermatology laser treatment. So I don’t I can’t actually compare and contrast. But I believe that a lot of times what you’re doing is injuring the skin to help build collagen. So this is a non fractional laser, non ablative. The non fractional is a technique that removes older pigmented skin layer by layer and reveals new skin underneath. And the non ablative creates heat in the skin without injuring the surface of the skin.
SuChin Pak 47:22
Yes. and it’s stimulating. I’m just reading this off of another website about non ablative.
Deanna Cheng 47:28
SuChin Pak 47:29
Lasers, it stimulates collagen production, it tightens and tones the skin without the sort of aggressive form of laser resurfacing, which can really be painful, but also effective but painful.
Deanna Cheng 47:44
Totally. And you’re gonna have your downtime and all of that.
SuChin Pak 47:48
So this is this is this is sort of like a non right non downtime, non abrasive way you can do it at home. This website, which I’m looking at, and this article is in 2021. So I don’t know these prices couldn’t be more is saying that a typical non ablasive laser resurfacing in a dermatologists office can run anywhere from 1000 to $1,200 a session. Okay.
Deanna Cheng 48:17
Wait, well, that’s we are these price points, if you are interested in in, you know, doing any of these types of treatments, that’s where the price points, they really get regulated in my mind. And, like $600, even, uh, you know, for any type of treatment at a dermatologist is on the lower end.
SuChin Pak 48:42
Deanna Cheng 48:42
In general. And so it’s like, okay, you don’t have to leave your house, you could do it as many times as you want. And that just really changes the game in terms of, you know, the value in my mind. Yeah, I hear no,
SuChin Pak 48:59
absolutely no apps. I mean, that’s kind of the only reason why you would buy a device like this is if you’re the type of person who is considering or would consider going into a dermatologists office spending over $1,000 but feels like that would set you back a lot. And so you’re like, Okay, this is this is an investment. Right? Like, if you’re gonna use it, this is an investment. It is expensive, but over time it pays for itself in fact, you’re making money at some point.
Deanna Cheng 49:27
They say use this on your face, use it on your chest, use it on your hands, I would start with your hands.
Kulap Vilaysack 49:33
Deanna Cheng 49:35
Cause that’s a lot less scary, you know, then your face.
Kulap Vilaysack 49:40
Interesting. Very interesting.
Deanna Cheng 49:44
Oh, did that get you?
Kulap Vilaysack 49:45
It did get me it did get me because ladies full disclosure now yeah, that I wore the Omni locks in the opposite direction. I only did that once. But I did do it in public basically, and posted it. The Add to Cart stories. So now I don’t really get into the devices in part is it that I have excellent skin and have don’t have a need for it? Yeah, that’s the part. But for me, it’s coming for me. Definitely is coming for me, but I am interested in the hand in the hand. I’m very interested in the hand, okay in the hand and migrate to the face. Yes. That’s maybe how.
SuChin Pak 50:21
I’m, I’m full in. I’m full in all your devices. I’m so full in because you get to a certain age and you’re like, No, of course, the creams are great. But that’s, you know, you’re just scratching at the surface. I need penetration.
Kulap Vilaysack 50:37
Yeah, you need. Yeah, you need.
SuChin Pak 50:39
Full, deep, full Penny. Now, let’s talk about results.
Deanna Cheng 50:44
Okay. Okay, so where I’ve seen, and I’ve had more time with the precision, but people were using it for hooded eyelids. So when you’re doing it, you’re pulling, you’re kind of like lifting up on that little tip. I still guys, by the way, I do like the small precision for around my eyes.
SuChin Pak 51:08
You prefer it.
Deanna Cheng 51:09
I do use both of them. I use I’ve been using the Pro for the rest of my face, and the precision for around my eyes because the Pro is a large surface area. And I do just feel a little more comfortable getting right by the eye. With the pro I’m doing more of just a general area, which is fine. You know, it’s they’re both on a work, but I do use both of them.
Kulap Vilaysack 51:31
I wrote down that I want to ask you if you’d be retiring the old one. But that answers that now.
Deanna Cheng 51:35
I’m not retiring it. No, not at all. Not at all. He’s doubling down. What is more great with these guys, like I’m happy to have them both. They both stand proudly. On my sink very proudly next to each other forceful. They feel united. They feel I angle them so they’re ready to go and they’re charged. They also both hold a charge quite nicely. That’s another thing.
Kulap Vilaysack 52:02
Now Su, did you listen about the eye situation? Did you hear?
SuChin Pak 52:05
Did you hear the hooded eye? Oh my god, this could be, this could be the answer to all my problems. Because you know, I got heavy hoods. So are you noticing less of a hang on your hand?
Deanna Cheng 52:20
Oh, yeah. And again, subtle, you know, but I mean, I think I’m pretty great guys.
SuChin Pak 52:27
You look fantastic.
Deanna Cheng 52:28
You know what I mean? Like, I don’t know, this is and again, these are, it’s a different way of grabbing that colagen and making it happen that’s doing a little something different than the Omnilux both are doing. I feel like the Omnilux is an overall benefit. And it’s working on your overall skin and then this is like targeted.
Kulap Vilaysack 52:51
Okay, now Su remember that point Deanna made about like getting your head around like six months to a year and so that we don’t go intensively the way that you’re holding it up to your lid right now really freaks me out? It really does. Can we just not go intense around your eyes?
SuChin Pak 53:10
No, I I know we joke about it. And I am heavy handed. I’m not saying I’m not heavy handed. But that experience of burning my eyes around with the laser. That’s why when I felt the heat I stopped because I was like yeah, I am not. I’m not the person. Yeah, you know what I mean? I’m not capable of controlling it. I’m not capable I can do injury so then that’s why I stopped so I’m that’s what I wanted to know. Was that a normal feeling? Am I going to just do it once that is going to be Yeah, up to me up to me and my conscience and, and my time and my hoods. That’s between me and my hoodie?
Kulap Vilaysack 53:51
Yeah, well, the thing is, is like I know for a fact that you shall be making time for your hoods, like Casey and I put tree time into our schedules around Christmas time, we got hood time for SuChin Pak. So going into the cow.
SuChin Pak 54:05
Okay. All right, I am excited. Can we be done so I can start this?
Deanna Cheng 54:11
Kulap Vilaysack 54:12
Deanna, where can we find you on the interwebs?
Deanna Cheng 54:16
Well, you know what, I would love you to find me at Deanna M Cheng. And by the time this podcast comes out, you can march yourself over to my new sub stack with Emily Foster. We are bringing our old podcast how to be less old back in a substack formation which is written.
SuChin Pak 54:37
I love substack.
Deanna Cheng 54:38
And they be, we’re also going to do podcast and I would love to see you over there we are probably gonna deal with the beauty product and tool here and there. So love to see you in that area.
Kulap Vilaysack 54:52
And just remind us what the podcast was. How To Be Less Old.
Deanna Cheng 54:57
Yes, and it is the idea is you know, things move so rapidly. And you wonder to yourself, like, the things that I’m saying even just saying like skincare girly that I’m pretty sure is done. You know, the second I have a phrase and it’s in rotation. Certainly sure, that the youths have put it to the side.
Kulap Vilaysack 55:24
Now, Tiffany is a she’s she’s a young person.
SuChin Pak 55:27
She’s our youth. Yeah, she’s our youth.
Kulap Vilaysack 55:29
She’s you. Yeah. And she says it’s it’s still going on?
SuChin Pak 55:33
It’s still going strong. Now. How long? Did it go on strong? Far? We don’t know.
Kulap Vilaysack 55:37
So I just went today by the time this airs. Yeah.
Deanna Cheng 55:42
Well, how about this one? And Tiffany, love your thoughts and feedback on this? If I were to say, if I were to be so bold to go on social media with a fifth check, would you be like, Ah, I think that was done six months ago. God, you know what I mean.
SuChin Pak 56:03
You know, no, but she loves it. You’re generous. Why? Because she’s saying that that’s retro. is in, right? It’s like, what is old is new. Again, that is actually what she’s saying.
Deanna Cheng 56:19
Okay, like that? Well, so how to be less old. We’re getting into, you know, what’s happening in youth culture, and how can we keep up? And we’re also actually like, wait, no, how do we actually become less old in our ages now? Because we’re going to widen it a little bit to include things like lasers on the face that heat up and how to support your knees with Archer ports and things like that, and that sort of thing.
Kulap Vilaysack 56:45
And will you still be talking to young people like Tiffany?
Deanna Cheng 56:49
Yes, absolutely. Might be in more of a written form. But yes, we’re gonna get feedback for sure.
Kulap Vilaysack 56:57
Thank you so much, Deanna, you are the best. Everything we’ve talked about will be up on our show description wherever you’re listening to this podcast but also on Add to Cart pod thank you so much Deanna.
Well that’s it there’s more add to cart with Lemonada Premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content like where we give you an unfiltered look at the actual last thing we bought subscribe now in Apple podcasts. There’s more ADD TO CART with Lemonada Premium. Subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content like where we tell you about the last item we bought or returned and why. Subscribe now in Apple podcasts. Add To Cart is a production of Lemonada Media. Our producers are Kegan Zema and Tiffany Bouy. Brian Castillo is our engineer. Theme music is by Wasahhbii and produced by La Made It and Oh So Familiar with additional music by APM music. Executive producers or Kulap Vilaysack, SuChin Pak, Jessica Cordova Kramer, and Stephanie Wittels Wachs. Be sure to check out all the items we mentioned today on our Instagram at @AddToCartPod. Follow Add to Cart wherever you get your podcasts or listen at free on Amazon music with your Prime membership.