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Description

This week Nzinga catches up with activist and Pod Save the People host DeRay Mckesson and his dad, Calvin. Last year DeRay, his sister TeRay, and Calvin were on an episode of Last Day to talk about what it was like growing up around addiction and recovery. Now, we hear about the impact that conversation had on their relationship, and the way that COVID has (or hasn’t) changed the game for both of them.

 

Here is the Last episode with DeRay, TeRay and Calvin: https://link.chtbl.com/LoveistheWhy

 

Please note, In Recovery contains mature themes and may not be appropriate for all listeners.

 

Click this link for a list of current sponsors and discount codes for this show and all Lemonada shows go to lemonadamedia.com/sponsors.

 

Have an addiction-related question? We want to hear from you! Call 833-4-LEMONADA (833-453-6662) or submit your question through this form:  bit.ly/inrecoveryquestions

 

To follow along with a transcript and/or take notes for friends and family, go to www.lemonadamedia.com/show/in-recovery shortly after the air date.

 

Follow Dr. Harrison on Twitter, IG, and FB @naharrisonmd

 

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Transcript

SPEAKERS

TeRay Mckesson, Dr. Nzinga Harrison, Calvin McKesson, DeRay Mckesson, Claire Jones

Dr. Nzinga Harrison  00:04

Welcome to another episode of IN RECOVERY. I’m so excited for today’s conversation with some voices you’ve probably heard before, activist DeRay McKesson, his sister to TeRay, and their dad, Calvin, we’re on Season 1 of LAST DAY. To talk about DeRay into raise childhood growing up around addiction and recovery. Here’s a quick clip from that episode.

DeRay Mckesson 

I wanted to ask to Teray, to because I’ve never asked you this is how has being a principal and interacting with so many parents who are going through their own journeys with their kids, especially because you’re a prince on an elementary school. Has that changed? Has that like how has that informed the way that you think about parents who struggle?

TeRay Mckesson 

just get it, I get it in a whole different way. Like, I get it for the kids to like, I mean, if we if you think about how it happened. So we grew up without our mom, we knew she had a drug issue, alcohol issue or whatever the issue was, the house burned down, we were displaced, we were homeless, we were doubled up and how like, these are issues that my kids are dealing with every day. And so when they come in, and they’re like, you know, I slept on the floor with my three cousins last night, I understand that in a visceral way, like I get what that means I understand that you didn’t sleep as well as you planned on sleeping. And now you don’t want to hear nothing about ABC 123 because you’re tired. And so I think it just gives me a level of empathy and compassion that our families need.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison

It is so true how looking at our childhood experiences through the lens of our adult experiences can totally change the way we see things. Today, we’re catching up with DeRay and Calvin to see how things have been since they taped that episode, and how they’re both faring coming out of a very tough year.

Claire Jones  02:04

If you want to pause this episode right now and listen to that LAST DAY episode first. It’s Episode 20. It’s called “Love is The Why” and that’s part of Season 1 of LAST DAY, you know, quick plug. Let’s get into it.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison 

Let’s get into it.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison

Thank you to DeRay McKesson and Calvin McKesson, also known as DeRay’s dad, for joining us on IN RECOVERY today. Welcome to you both.

Calvin McKesson 

Hello.

DeRay Mckesson 

It’s so good to be here. Hi, Daddy, we never get to work together. So this is cool to see you and Dr. NZ, great to be back.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison 

A lot of our listeners, IN RECOVERY listeners are also last day listeners. And they heard the episode that the two of you did together. And kind of with that brief opener, I’m wondering if we could just open up with the two of you telling me what was it like for you to be on that last day episode together? And how did it impact you? And has anything changed about your relationship since being on that show together? Maybe we’ll open it up with DeRay and then throw it to Calvin.

DeRay Mckesson

Yes. So obviously, you know, been with my father My whole life because he raised us. So we’ve, shout out to him that I think we’ve always had good language to talk about recovery and not to be ashamed of addiction to understand it as a mental health issue is as a disease. And not as a moral failing signing that we just grew up. I didn’t understand that that wasn’t what everybody thought until I became an adult. It was cool to just be on the episode with him and TeRay was on that episode. It was the three of us. The three of us have never publicly been like either me and TeRay have done some things together. Me and daddy have done some things. But the three of us have never been together. So that was really cool. It was like, okay, and TeRay’s great. I talked to three every day I talk to daddy often. So it’s cool to just be in the same place talking about our lives and like, what does it mean, you know, for TeRay and I, what does it mean to grow up in a community where addiction was so prevalent? And importantly, seeing the power of community to help people into the recovery process is something that like has been an enduring lesson for me as an activist.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison  04:24

Yeah, Calvin, dad, I can’t help but call you dad. I hope that’s okay.

Calvin McKesson 

Okay. That’s fine. From my perspective, it was a joy. To hear things from their perspective. Oh, my God, it was hilarious to me. You know, just to hear from their point of views, like DeRay made a mention that when our house burned down, we were homeless, and homeless man, but to them, we were homeless [….] homeless, but it’s just amazing. Looking at something from another person’s point of view.

DeRay Mckesson

I will only push a little bit on and you bringing up the TeRay saying we were homeless is the importance of that and TeRay and I talked about this is the way that people often define homelessness is this idea of like without a home. But one of the other definitions is the idea of transients. Right? So people who lose their primary nighttime residents is actually like one of the, that is one of the definitions of homeless. And we did that, like the house burned down, right? We lived in grandma’s, lived in room for a year, you know. And it’s funny, it was that was probably one of the funniest years we ever had, because it was like our cousin, like, it was amazing.

DeRay Mckesson

You know, it was so sad to go back to the house because it was like […], and like, you know, that was a blast. But in many ways, like we were functionally homeless in terms of the way it’s defined. We were not without anywhere to sleep. Well, we definitely were transitioning, right? And that was interesting, just to go back and be like, that’s not how I thought about it, then TeRay was like, and to TeRay thought about it, because she’s a principal and her students. Like she’s had a more complicated way of thinking about this issue, because our students are going through it, you know what I mean?

Calvin McKesson  06:09

Yeah. And that’s what made it amazing for me, because I would have never been like that.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison

I mean, it’s an important point, especially between parents and kids. A lot of times, we don’t necessarily have the ability to understand how our children are experiencing the experiences that we’re having at the same time.

Calvin McKesson

And that’s why I’ve meant so much to me, I loved it, it was eye opening for me. And that’s what I got for them too. Because my job as a parent was just to keep them safe. You know, that was it, you know, but to hear to TeRay, and DeRay talk about how my recovery affected them and what they learned from it. And the Serenity Prayer, they know the Serenity Prayer by heart.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison 

For our listeners dad, go ahead and roll off the Serenity Prayer for us.

Calvin McKesson

Okay, this is the long version of the Serenity Prayer. God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things that can and the wisdom to know the difference, living one day at a time, enjoying each moment at a time, accepting hardships as a pathway to peace, taking this simple world as He did as it is, and not as our head, trusting that if I surrender to His will, He’ll make everything all right. So, that I may be reasonably happy in this lifetime, and supremely happy with him forever in the next. Amen.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison

So this is actually a great segue into, and DeRay. It caught me when you said, the power of community. And that is definitely a common thread between the work of activism and the work of recovery. So that Calvin, this is a question for you. Even starting with that Serenity Prayer, and your recovery process, and what it meant to be in recovery as you were raising kids, can you talk to us about what that process was like for you? What was your magic formula that helps you stay in recovery overall this time?

Calvin McKesson  08:14

There’s a few things, you got to understand, the one thing what recovery to a lot of people don’t talk about the set me free, was taking responsibility for the part that I played in it. There’s a saying that I was responsible for my disease, but I am responsible for my recovery. Now, I didn’t ask to be an addict. I didn’t. But my recovery is 100% my responsibility. So what I did the first thing I did was realize that all by myself, I was a power less than disease of addiction I need to help. Once we identify, once any person is identified the[…] help with anything, then that’s when the recovery process starts. But my motivating force I will always say to till the day I die, where my two kids, they are important for them I seriously doubt don’t know, but I thought about what […].

Calvin McKesson

It was looking into their eyes realizing they did not ask for this life is what motivated me. And any parent that’s worth their soul is going to want more for their kids than what they had. And that’s what I tried to offer TeRay and DeRay was a better life than I had and they turned out pretty good. They turned out pretty good. And when TeRay and DeRay, I always wanted them to accept responsibility for part of the day play in situations. And it was funny because the things that I learned every curve is what I taught them. No simple principles, honesty open mind and willingness. You know, always tell the truth. Be able to listen to somebody other than yourself and be willing to love and learn what love look like. And that’s what I really tried to show him was what love look like

Dr. Nzinga Harrison 

Honesty, openness, and willingness. So, DeRay talk to me about because there’s a lot of stigma around addiction and even having a parent, definitely an active addiction and even having a parent in recovery. So as a kid growing up, how was it being raised through this lens of recovery.

DeRay Mckesson  10:19

So we grew up in in a meetings, we were like, in a lot of NA meetings in the back and some like that, and a lot of daddy’s friends had been an NA. So like, it wasn’t a and Baltimore is a city, where most people have stories of addiction, right? So it wasn’t like, I never felt like an outlier. Like, wow, this is a thing only impacting our family. If anything, it felt like who everybody’s family has a little bit of addiction in it. And everybody’s sort of working through it. And he sponsored so many people that if anything, like that’s what I think about as a child, it was like how many people were sort of in our lives in the recovery process like that is sort of like what I remember the most, there wasn’t a time where I felt stigmatized by it, you know, our great grandmother also live with us.

DeRay Mckesson

So if anything, the one part probably is like the absence of my mother. So my mother did not go through recovery, and definitely not in any moment of my childhood that she was around us. So that would be a weird thing. Because like Mother’s Day has never been like a celebratory day. And like for most people, like most people I grew up with, their fathers might not be there, but their mothers certainly weren’t, right? So that would be this thing where it’s like, oh, I’m calling my father. Didn’t I like […] Good question. Where’s my mom? So that would be the part that I felt like stigma about but the act of addiction was not something like being the child of people who were addicted to drugs, at some point was not a thing, but it was definitely her absence.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison

I think that absence of stigma, I wish was an experience that more people can have. Because it’s going back to what you said at the beginning, DeRay the power of community. Like, you have the power of the recovery community wrapping around you by being that kid sitting in the back of NA meetings by meeting all of your dad sponsees. Dad, I’m sure you had your own sponsor. And so going back to what Calvin said about taking the responsibility for the illness, part of that responsibility is coping. And so DeRay, looking at the last year COVID, all of the, you know, murders of black people by the police, this new shining of light and kind of like collective awakening for the country? Like, how did you take care of yourself? And do you see any of the resilience and coping and those three recovery principles that your dad just talked about, informing how you took care of yourself over the last year?

DeRay Mckesson  12:45

You know, I think what I have learned more and more over time is that there is no amount of individual success or things that look like success, that will ever, like, be enough to account for what systems do to people, right? So often, like, we need programs, because the system has failed. So we have to prop up all the programs because like in Baltimore, there are not enough drug treatment beds today for people who need them or people who want them, right? Like we just don’t, the system is failing people, right? So you get all these things that come up, because the need is still there, even though the system doesn’t respond. And like that is what I think about like all this. So when I think about the police, it’s like, yeah, there’s a lot of cool work happening. I think I’m a part of the core, but until the system changes and until we like fight at the system level, I think the outcomes at best, we will tread water.

DeRay Mckesson  

So when I think about NA, when I think about the police stuff, I think about all these programs that exist to make sure that people experience as little harm as possible. And help people live like the fullest lives. I’m not convinced that these are the most scalable things because like systems get, you know, like we could offer a drug treatment like in health insurance like that would be something that like there’s no amount of a meeting that can do that. Like either you have health insurance or you don’t, right? Either we give you access to the […]. So we’d like a scaled solution is what I just that is the lesson that I’ve gotten over the years and from a coping perspective. I think what growing up definitely around Calvin and his peers taught me is that like, community is always bigger than our biggest problem.

 

DeRay Mckesson

Like I think that’s like what, but this taught me is that like, you know, he’ll tell you, Daddy tell you is like the sheer amount of people who loved on us that we’re not our family. But we’re adjacent to him and our family was incredible. Like if there’s anything that makes me sad about my niece and nephew, it’s only that TeRay lives in Delaware, right? It’s like, because we were I mean, there were so many adults in our lives who were like, who loved us and built experiences for us and like all of the problems that we had that we might have even had as kids within our family had, there’s not one that was bigger than the community we were a part of.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison

I love that community is always bigger than our biggest problem. I’m gonna come to you Dad over the last year, the last year was like, unparalleled stress at scale to use this concept of scale over the last year, how did you cope during the last year of COVID? And how did having lived in life and recovery kind of prepare you for the last year?

DeRay Mckesson 

And he had COVID.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison 

Oh, God.

Calvin McKesson 

It was wonderous for me, actually. First off, I never stopped working, I work in the seafood industry. So we was considered essential worker so I work all the time. You know, that’s how I wind up catching COVID at the end of the year, was through my job. But as far as recovery, the 12 steps of recovery prepares you for anything in life that you are willing to address, anything. And the short version this time, just the first three steps that it says that one is I can’t, step two is he can, step three is about let him. I think he can, if I let him, and the eyes be talking about the God. And God opened up a window for recovering addicts that I don’t think I’ll ever be I’m closed through Zoom. We started going through to Zoom meetings all over the world. And you know, he missed his sponsorship. I did one meeting on the Zoom meeting and I wanted a sponsor somebody in Australia, two people in Australia, one in California, another guy, I think  he was in Texas or something.

Calvin McKesson  16:55

But it just opened up a whole world of recovery that I hadn’t, you know, been associated with, and it was wonderous. And see, I never went to treatment, I got 31 years clean, I walked off the street into an NA meeting and never look back. You know, so this recovery notion that, you know, you have to go to treatment, I get it. But people in the 12-step program, we realize, though, once you come out of denial, we will give you enough support to stay clean, and one day at a time. And that’s how we build our community. And like DeRay mentioned that, you know, he had a lot of Dawson’s like, I mean, NA community literally helped raise my kids. And a little short story of how that came to be was I did to raise […] as a little girl. And I knew what I was doing. And I put it in knots. And she couldn’t get knots out and they had to cut them off. And she never let me touch her hair again. But females in the program…

Dr. Nzinga Harrison 

I got you baby. Let me do that baby say it.

Calvin McKesson

Exactly, exactly. I didn’t know how to cook. I went to a meeting I shared that I don’t know how to cook. They gave me a book, Cooking for Dummies. And this is step one, step two, step three. Now that’s an NA thing because we got the 12 steps. I learned how to cook. And I never forget six months later, I saw the girl who gave me the cookbook. And I said Cathy, I can cook I can cook. She said, Calvin, I’m glad you’ve learned how to cook. I said you gave me the book. She said I thought I’d get you the book. But I didn’t give you the book for you learn how to cook. I said you didn’t, she said no, I gave you the book so you learn how to follow instructions. Go to your sponsor and do some stuff. But I didn’t learn how to cook and I got recovery out of it the same time. And they the gems did you get from people? NA is based on empathy. And that process anybody can walk through. Anybody who’s willing to get honest with their self can walk through that process. Anyone can empathize with someone, empathy simply means I understand because I’ve experienced what you have, and that’s the core of recovery to me.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison

Yeah, I really think getting back to like this very, very basic idea. This is something that I believe deeply is that all health is rooted in I call it compassion but I think we’re using empathy and compassion the same here empathy and connection. All health, physical health, mental health. I think that’s really the beautiful thing that NA and other 12 steps programs. And what you and DeRay are talking to us about right now do for not just the person who’s in the program, but also for your kids, right? Is that access to empathy and compassion.

Calvin McKesson  20:02

You use my favorite word, which is compassion. That word changed my life, the definition of compassion is to recognize another person’s pain with the sole intent of removing. It changed my life. First off, it moved me out the way. And it took away any personal agenda that I may have had. Most relationships have private because there’s always a hidden agenda. And that definition of compassion took away, help someone with the sole intent. So when you say compassionate does it just […], because that’s one of my favorite words.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison

I absolutely love it. So let me pull that thread. Coming back to you DeRay. I think you shared on the LAST DAY episode that you’re in therapy?

DeRay Mckesson 

Love therapy, sign me up. Shout out to Matt.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison 

Every episode, I’m like everybody therapy for everyone, like sprinkle it in the water. But you said shout out to Matt.

DeRay Mckesson

The shout out to Matt. Yeah. And the only thing that I’d sort of add from what daddy said is a reminder that like, we all have different paths to the solution for us, right? So in a is like the best solution for some people in person treatment is the best solution for others, right? Like, there are people who like you dropped off at treatment centers, right? There are people who you like stayed up all night trying to find a bed because like they couldn’t find money you got you know, I’m always mindful that one of the things that we say as activists is that we can’t be so arrogant to believe that the only way to enter is the way we enter, right? We’re always trying to get people we want people to get to the end. But everybody like takes their own way, sometimes, right?

Dr. Nzinga Harrison 

We talked about this concept on this show that I called the “Magic Formula”. And it’s this idea that there are an infinite number of pathways to addiction. And to use your dad’s words and what we were talking about just now I think even though there are an infinite number of pathways to addiction, all of them entail disconnection, and lack of access to compassion. And so just like there are an infinite number of pathways into, there are an infinite number of pathways out of, everyone that has to have empathy, compassion, and connection.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison  22:31

And so this idea of the “Magic Formula” is that there are a lot of buckets, we can dip in for people, right? There’s biological, we can dip in medication, their psychological, we can dip in therapy, and that was the question DeRay we’re gonna come back to their social, cultural, political, we dip into connection and compassion and empathy. And the mix of what that looks like for people is different, or can be different for each person. But you just like that said earlier, you just keep trying to find your path with that sole intent of removing the hurting, right? That sole intent. So DeRay, the question was, how is therapy going? What are you getting out of it? What is it doing for you?

DeRay Mckesson 

I think there were a couple things. One is what people didn’t tell me is that some of it is literally just hearing yourself, like they were I will come back like there was something I was going through. And, you know, is the third time in a row that I said the same thing. And I’m like, I don’t even need you to tell me, man. That is I got it. I heard it. I heard myself say that. And we got to work on that. That doesn’t make sense. So that’s one. The second is I didn’t realize that the therapist is the only person in my life that I’m sharing the good and the not great with that’s not like that I don’t have another relationship with, right? Because everybody else is like, you’re my family, you’re my friend, you’re a colleague.

DeRay Mckesson 

So we are problem solving, but those people necessarily carry all of that stuff with them, right, they carry, like I have a bad day, that becomes like a little data point in our relationship, where some of this stuff, I don’t actually need to be a data point in our relationship, some of the stuff I will only take them at, I’ll process it there, I’ll leave it there. And then I go back to and it actually was like, it’s so great to have to not spread all that stuff throughout every relationship, which is what I think I was doing until I did therapists. And the third thing is that it is a different accountability partner, because in some ways, he’s helping me be accountable to myself, whereas I realized that I was using sort of the strength of others. Like I was like, oh, I don’t want to disappoint that person I’m gonna do was really, I wasn’t actually being accountable to me, I was like, using all these other proxies, but I’ll go to him and be like, I’m gonna do this on this day.

DeRay Mckesson  24:36

And I’m like, I’m gonna do it. And I’m not gonna see Matt again till the next week. But like, I’m gonna do it. I’m gonna tell you, I’m gonna do it. So that I like, which is me telling you is really me telling myself, you know, and that’s actually been helpful outside of the normal like we’ve processed up and he challenges me like, recently I was like, you know, I want karma to be swift and unrelenting. And he goes, when you say karma, do you mean revenge? And I was like that’s enough questions for today. Enough questions for today. Let’s move on to the next topic. So I appreciate him for his gentle pushes.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison 

Nice. Can I ask how did you find Matt? Because I know a lot of what our listeners go through is like, I have finally gotten to the point where I can let myself say I want therapy, and I don’t even know where to begin.

DeRay Mckesson

So I went to HealHaus, which is a place in Brooklyn, but on their website they had they have like all these options for like group therapy, couples therapy, individual therapy, and I saw like a couple black or not white therapists, and I was like, let’s see, let’s see what’s going on. So we set up a thing somebody recently was like, DeRay I’m getting like I talk about therapy a lot. And now and I got a DMV, and like, I’m finally going to get a therapist. What is it like it was a guy and I was like, the first meeting will be like an awkward first date, right? Like, that’s just what it is. It’s like a hey, how are you? Yeah, it’s like one of those. But once you get over that, it was great. And I’m a Big Matt fan. Matt’s great. Awesome.

Claire Jones  26:06

We’re gonna take a quick break, and we will be right back.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison

And Dad, let me throw the same question to you. We feel like NA and AA are ubiquitous, like it’s everywhere, you just know how to get to it. But things have changed a lot over the last year from COVID. And so if people are hearing your message of compassion and empathy and connection, and that’s kind of developing in them that they desire to try it out. How do you get to NA these days?

Calvin McKesson 

NA is everywhere, so as AA. You can go on the internet just type NA or AA, you got it, they got a hotline number has been in existence forever. In Baltimore long, they have over 635 beats, and is opening back up now. So to get in touch with NA or AA, or really any 12-step program, all you got to do is go on a computer and type it in and you find them all, y’all […] therapy. And I think I had the best therapist in the world. And my therapist says something to me, that changed my life. Real simple. She said, if you never have never, ever never placed an expectation on anybody other than yourself. You can never ever never, ever, ever be disappointed anybody other than yourself.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison

Oh, that’s powerful.

Calvin McKesson

Girl, let me tell you, took away all my excuses. She said in excuses when you don’t have the desire to do it anyway, Calvin, shut up. So because I always say what you did to make me do what I did, and it never ever has anything to do with the other person. It doesn’t. You have to it all begins and ends with me. She said, didn’t Know yourself, you have to have a level of intimacy with yourself. And now what intimacy means just what it says. And to me, I see, you know, so it starts from within. Yeah, but that […], when she told me came place no expectation or no by other than myself, broke me down. I stopped fighting all my fight was gone.

DeRay Mckesson  28:32

My only… And Daddy and I disagreed with this about this in the past. The spear that makes sense to me. I would my push would be that like, the thing that I think is dangerous is expectations that are not shared. But I think that like part of the beauty of relationship is that we sort of understand what it means to be in relationship with each other. And I do think that is an expectation. I think expectations that are not shared is where the danger comes in.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison 

Or expectations that are not clear. Because you can have expectations of me that I don’t agree to. Or you can have expectations of me that I don’t even know about. I think we can point this at ourselves too. We have expectations of ourselves.

Calvin McKesson 

And see that’s why people always push back at. And but see, the hidden is this. If you don’t pay it, if I never place an expectation on you, then I can never be disappointed in you. See, and that’s the thing. We place our unrealistic expectations on people only because the only person who you can make a decision for yourself, period. I don’t care..

DeRay Mckesson

You sound like JT, Daddy, that was a period.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison

He put the T on it, too. He put the T on it.

 

Calvin McKesson 

Yes. Because it took me forever. To stop basing my actions on somebody else’s behavior is truly a level of immaturity and insecurity when I did that, when I look at the past I pray and look what I’m capable of controlling. And I found out that what I was doing was giving people power over me that didn’t do anything to earn it, and didn’t know what to do once they had it. So I stopped giving it to him simply by holding myself accountable for my own behavior.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison  30:18

You know what’s so interesting, which walks like right in the middle of the line that both you’re talking about when my husband and I went to couples therapy three years ago, and it is the gift that keeps on giving. Okay, so you shouting out Matt, and you shout him out, the best therapist in the world, I’m gonna shout out Sherry. Sherry basically said the same thing, she said, you have to stop talking about what you want him to do. Right? She was like, what you have control over in this relationship is clearly sharing your expectations. And holding yourself accountable to how you want to be in this relationship. And then he has to do the same thing on his other side. Alright, so we’re getting close to having to wrap this time together, even though I honestly feel like I could come to Thanksgiving with y’all and feel like right in the family.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison 

We’re really trying to spend this season, giving people insight into how folks are turning our backs on the last year and pointing ourselves forward into the year coming up. So thinking about what we’ve been through recovering from what we’ve been through pouring into ourselves. And so we’d love to just pops, we can start with you, Calvin, some words of encouragement, or even direct advice, words of wisdom for people who have struggled over the last year and are trying to make that pivot into the new year, any guidance, and then DeRay I’ll ask you the same thing to close this out.

Calvin McKesson  32:06

Well, this this last year, what it did was enhanced what I already do. And I call it a universal truth. And it’s really simple. The only reason for two people to be in a relationship is to help one another grow spiritually. And by me reaching out on his zoom level, where I couldn’t physically touch anyone, all but spiritually, fell in love with so many people. You know, because there is no hidden agenda. This COVID made us look at people without any distractions, the kids was home from school, your spouse home from work, you had to deal with them one on one on so many levels. I had a roommate who kids was here with me, and I had to deal with them one on one. And I’m gonna tell you, my only motive in dealing with them this whole year was to help them grow spiritually. And that’s what love looks like for me.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison 

Thank you. DeRay, I’m gonna throw it to you.

DeRay Mckesson

I think the only thing I’d say is that the language of self-care has unfortunately made people believe that the self is what got them here. And the only way that we thrive is because community did I, right? Like community like we are, we are the strongest, when community strong. And when I think about one of the dangers that I’ve seen, even when people you know, I tweet about therapy, and people were like, I get all these DMS from guys who are like, you know, I’m getting therapy today. And I think that we just haven’t normalized, how to ask for help. It feels like really big into that. But like in the places where you feel loved, help is easy. I never am worried about calling my father being like, daddy, today was a bad day. I’m worried about it. Because I know he loves me. We’re in a community together.

DeRay Mckesson  34:00

And then when you’re in community with people help asking for help is easy. It’s basic, right? Like it’s easy. It’s like, but when you’re not in community help always feels like a big deal. It always feels like the end of the world, when you don’t have community and the self will never be strong enough to do that. And community is what got you here it was the love with other people in relation to other people that that actually got you here. And any other narrative just simply is not true. And I think that that is my takeaway from COVID. Like, I have been very successful with things and I want it to be successful.

DeRay Mckesson

And I’m super proud of the things that I’ve done. And the only way I’ve been able to do them is because I was in a community bigger than me, because people loved me who did not have to. And because I was blessed to be around people who we all were trying to get to the same place, right? We didn’t always have the same plan for how we got to what our conception of justice was, but we were all trying to get there. But the community did that like individuals will never be strong enough to do that work.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison 

Well, on that note, this conversation has been amazing. Thank you both.

Calvin McKesson 

Thank you for having me. It was an honor.

DeRay Mckesson 

Love you, Daddy.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison 

Love you too, daddy. I feel in love.

Claire Jones 

I love that. I just love that.

Claire Jones 

I’m curious. What was your biggest takeaway from this conversation?

Dr. Nzinga Harrison 

Oh, man, easy. I felt it when DeRay said it. And I’m gonna take it with me and continue to try to live my life that way, quote, unquote, there is no problem bigger than community.

Claire Jones 

Yes, I was so surprised. Honestly, when Calvin was like, COVID was great, because it opened up community for him in his recovery and in being able to just like be a part of meetings all the time with more people across the world, which is just honestly not a thing I really thought about. And it was such a cool thing to hear that really tied into what DeRay was saying, which I loved.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison  36:22

Yeah, it was incredible. So I like take that as a call to action, which is build the community that is supporting you as part of your magic formula, but also to be challenging ourselves to make sure that we’re being part of community for other people.

Claire Jones 

Love that. That’s it for this episode. As always, give us a call at 833-453-6662. Leave us a question on Google Forms if you want to at bit.ly/inrecoveryquestions. And we will be here next week.

Dr. Nzinga Harrison 

Same bath time, same bath channel.

CREDITS

IN RECOVERY is a Lemonada Media Original. This show is produced by Claire Jones and edited by Ivan Kuraev. Jackie Danziger is our supervising producer. Our theme was composed by Dan Molad with additional music by Kuraev. Stephanie Wittels Wachs and Jessica Cordova Kramer are our executive producers. Rate us, review us, and say nice things. Follow us at @LemonadaMedia across all social platforms, or find me on Twitter at @naharrisonmd. If you’ve learned from us, share the show with your others. Let’s help to stigmatize addiction together.