Reframing and Alleviating Your “Mom Guilt” (with Dr. Becky)

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Description

Mom guilt is no joke. You feel it when you drop your kids off at child care, when you check your email during their softball game, when you ask your partner to wake up early with the little ones so you can get a little more sleep on Saturday. But it doesn’t have to be that way! Gloria digs deep into mom guilt, timeouts, separation anxiety, and so much more with Dr. Becky, clinical psychologist and host of the Good Inside podcast. Pop in your earbuds and relax on the couch because this episode is like a free therapy session!

Follow Dr. Becky on Instagram @drbeckyatgoodinside and keep up with her work at goodinside.com.

This podcast is presented by Neighborhood Villages, and is brought to you with generous support from Imaginable FuturesCare For All Children by the David and Laura Merage Foundation, and Spring Point Partners.

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Transcript

SPEAKERS

Gloria Riviera, Dr. Becky, Speaker 4, Julia

Gloria Riviera  00:00

Hi guys, the team behind No One Is Coming To Save Us, Lemonada Media, has a brand new show and I think you’re going to love it. It is called V INTERESTING and it’s hosted by Tik Tok star V Spehar. V is the host of the popular Tik Tok account under the desk news, where they provide a News Digest in 60 seconds or less every single day. Sometimes they need more than a minute to bring you the news, which is why this new twice weekly show is so great. On Tuesdays, V will highlight stories you might have missed in the news cycle, or give you interesting new ways to think about the top stories. On Fridays. They’ll go deep into complex issues that matter to us all, even if they are not dominating the headlines. Search for V INTERESTING with V Spehar wherever you get your podcasts and make sure you subscribe so you never miss an episode. Okay, it’s 9:56 I just put in a load of laundry. Our laundry machine is really old. So you might hear it like banging around over there. What can I tell you? I’m doing laundry on a Friday night because my son’s disgusting soccer socks have been eyeing me all week. And he has a game that came up surprisingly early. It’s tomorrow. They’ve been eyeing me these disgusting soccer socks for like four days. So I’m watching those now my other son will take my daughter to a birthday party. Thankfully in the neighborhood, he doesn’t drive because he’s 13. I have a work call in four minutes with someone on the West Coast, which is sort of crazy, but I gotta get it done. Yeah, then like, let’s just hope nobody has a meltdown, that happens often in our house and it always requires time and patience and zen, which is in increasingly short supply. Okay, I got this. You got this. We got this.

Gloria Riviera 

Hi, guys. Okay, so truth be told, I totally forgot making that voice memo. I do know those socks though. And my son still wears the same pair, every practice and every game. This is No One Is Coming To Save Us a Lemonada Media Original presented by and created with Neighborhood Villages. I’m your host Gloria Riviera. This conversation you’re about to hear. I still can’t really believe that it happened. So I’m just gonna say it. I got to talk to Dr. Becky. The Dr. Becky? Oh, you know her. And if you don’t hold on to your parenting hat people, hold on to your how to be an emotionally healthy human act. Because Dr. Becky is here to help us feel she is a clinical psychologist and host of the enormously popular podcast Good Inside. Dr. Becky is also a mom of three, a spouse, a daughter and a friend. She is good people. In this episode, she’s going to tell me about how her perspective as a parent, and as a professional, did a complete 180 She flipped from a behavior first reward and punishment style of parenting to a much more mindful, more healing approach. Which actually meant no more sticker charts. Do you guys remember those? And can you believe it? No more time outs. Yeah, she’s going to take us through why timeouts really fall short. If your goal is to make space for your child to feel validated in feeling a feeling, which in turn makes space for them to learn how to navigate that feeling. She really made me laugh when she was talking about her husband and she said, so you know what would happen if my partner said to me, Well, that was rude, Becky, you get a timeout, as if to say, you know, go stand in silence by yourself without quote unquote bad behavior. I’m with Dr. Becky because after our conversation, I see very clearly how a timeout does just about absolutely nothing for a child. I will let her tell you more about some really good alternatives. She’s going to talk about the power of small decisions. Things like putting our stupid frickin phones away. Oh yeah. I have been the mom at bedtime getting ready to read a story to my beloved child and checking Instagram. I mean barf. She’s going to talk about a lot more and pay close attention because this episode is really therapy for all caregivers. At least it was for me. Okay, here’s my conversation with Dr. Becky I like to start by asking all my guests what logistical issue did you triage first thing this morning whether you were in bed, whether you were brushing your teeth, what went through your head that made you feel like you had to figure it out?

Dr. Becky  05:03

That’s a great question. So on Thursday mornings, I do like a workout with my friends, we go to someone’s building we work out. And then we have breakfast together and as a full time working outside of the home parent who obviously in some ways works in the home, too. It’s so important for me to have the time, my friends, but also, what was running through my head is like, wait, but is today too busy? Like do I just have to get to the office earlier? And so early this morning, and I wake up very early. I was thinking like, do I have time for breakfast? Do I have time for that? Or do I have to tell… Do I have breakfast with them, like sit down and have breakfast? Or is today like I got to work out and then go. So that’s what I was trying to triage.

Gloria Riviera 

Well, those things are so sacred last night, my husband and I wanted to just go outside and he suggested a walk holding hands, something that we’ve learned through therapy, and I definitely was like, we don’t have time, we don’t have time to take a walk and hold hands. Like someone was melting down. It’s so difficult, but I love that you’re triaging, how am I going to handle myself care? Because that time is self-care.

Dr. Becky  06:16

Yeah, like I haven’t thought about until you asked me this question. But I feel like I’m triaging. Like, which parts of me get airtime today?

Gloria Riviera 

That’s such a good way of putting it which parts of me yeah, because the other parts. I was laughing, I was telling my husband I was sitting down to this interview, and I haven’t showered. So listeners, I haven’t showered but you can’t see me. So it’s okay. The other question I like to ask is, who took care of you when you were small and tiny?

Dr. Becky 

My parents really did take care of me? Not perfectly. But they really did. And I would credit my mom who is the single most non-judgmental person in the world. I feel like you know, through my own journey, I’ve had to learn about like setting boundaries. Like I wouldn’t say she’s the strongest boundary setter, or you know, having said that, she literally is the most non-judgmental person like it was always trying to figure out the story underneath the on the surface behavior.

Gloria Riviera

In you, she was curious about that. So when you were tiny when you were like under the age of five, it was your mom who was there?.

Dr. Becky 

Yes. Like she was there. She was there. She was emotionally present. She helped me feel safe for sure.

Gloria Riviera 

Oh, that’s so great. That makes me happy. How do you do it? You’re a mom of three. How are you navigating childcare?

Dr. Becky 

I don’t know. One day at a time.

Gloria Riviera 

24/7 triage.

Dr. Becky

Yeah, you know, I actually just said this, my mom still helps out. It’s honestly one of the things that makes this whole world go round, and I’m a full time working parent. Now outside the home. That was not true two years ago, I was working two days a week, that was the setup of our lives. I had my private practice, I was with our kids, and managing our home those other days. And my husband works full time. And now we’re both working full time. And yes, he has three kids and my mom still is present, as is my amazing, amazing babysitter to help, you know, manage. And there’s so many exciting things in my work-life now that are just open files I would call them in my head. And it was it was to my mom yesterday. I was just saying like, it’s just so busy. Like in my body. It feels so busy. And it’s not even. It’s not even like quote bad things. It’s just a lot. So how do I manage? Like, I try to make really small decisions and just like remind myself, that’s all I have to do. So, like today, can I pick my son up from school? Like, can I be like today’s the day I’m gonna say I’m not having a meeting after three. I am picking my son up from school. Okay, today, I didn’t pick anyone up. Can I have five minutes alone with my daughter without my phone in the room? Can I give her five? I call it PNP time play no phone, just like can I give her PNP time for five minutes? Okay, I can do that. And I think if I zoom out and look at it to holistically like how am I going to be the parent I want to be and work. I don’t know. It just it feels so nebulous and so overwhelming. But when I zoom back in to like, how can I show up today? Or what can I do different tomorrow than I feel like I can manage.

Gloria Riviera 

And you get a little boost from those moments. Like when you leave PNP time. Do you feel better in your body?

Dr. Becky 

That’s literally what I would say. Yeah, like the other night. I was in bed going about to go to sleep. Ah, just like I was watching. You know, there’s a TV show my husband, I watched with my oldest my other kids are sleeping at that time we watch a show together and I was like I was kind of like on my phone and like doing different things. And, you know, I feel like that was annoying to my son like at the very least we could pay attention to the same show and have a singular point of focus for both of us.

Gloria Riviera  10:00

That so resonates with me.

Dr. Becky 

And it just felt bad. I was like ew, it felt, you know, but I kind of tried to stop the spiralis I always get some like, I’m a good parent who was distracted. Yeah, like the distraction isn’t me, I’m a good parent who’s distracted tomorrow I can do something else. And I say it out loud. This literally happened last night, I said to my husband, and my 10 year old, I was like, I’m trying to be on my phone last in the moment that I truly don’t have to. So when we watch the show, I’m lucky to say I putting my phone over there far away. Please watch for any moments that I start sneaking over and just like say, Becky, do you want to be doing that? Like, please, please, I’m asking you to call me.

Gloria Riviera 

You’re asking for help. I hear us talking about being present when we are physically present. But I’m also curious about your thoughts on separation anxiety, and really, all of what you talk about, on your podcast Good Inside, in your written work, those fundamental important things, and how they manifest in early childcare, right? We separate from our children, if we are lucky enough to find a way to place our child in early childcare situation and early education situation. And it’s hard for both. So how do parents navigate that in the healthiest way for their child? And how do childcare workers navigate it in the healthiest way for both child and parent and themselves?

Dr. Becky 

Okay, great. I love talking about this.

Gloria Riviera 

Good. We’re on the right track.

Dr. Becky

And for everyone listening, right, I have three kids who really have had very different patterns around separation. So I’ve really been with a kid who has kind of a hard time, a kid who like really, really has a hard time and a kid who like runs off and you’re like, oh, does my kid even like, care about? Guess we’re done. Right? So I really feel like I can answer this question by grounding, kind of all the ideas and in family jobs. So to me, this is like critical, because actually, when our kids are having a hard time, like, let’s say it’s with separation, we often think like, how do I make my kid not have a hard time, but then I’ll feel better. We never actually feel better that way, like we are, that’s just a hard way to feel better, because you’re trying to control someone else. We feel better as soon as we have clarity. Like as soon as you have clarity as a parent, essentially, like what is my job here? What’s my kids job, you automatically feel better, even though nothing on the surface has changed. So separation is like a key one, what is my job? Always my job as a parent, I think our boundaries, validation and empathy. So boundaries are decisions I make, boundaries are kind of sometimes behaviors I have to engage in, right? So I might like stop my kid from hitting their sister, that would be a boundary, I guess it’s a form of a decision. But that’s like the decision I make. And then validation, empathy is really a process of seeing other people’s feelings, and your own as real and important. Right? So and our kids job, and this to me is so important. Our kids job in my mind in their early years are to experience and express their feelings. Like that’s actually their job. Because the only way you ever learn to manage feelings is by going through the tunnel of experiencing them like you can never learn to regulate an emotion you don’t allow yourself to feel. So if we want our kids and I think everyone is like, I would love my 20 year old to have 20 year old coping skills, not two year old coping skills, which sometimes adults do have the same coping skills as a young kid, right? It looks a little different. Sometimes it doesn’t.

Dr. Becky 

So if we want our kids to learn emotion regulation skills, which I think are the most important skills of life, they’re the hard skills, not the soft skills, then our kids have to feel their feelings. Okay, so how does this come together in separation, then we can go over where? I would say like, there’s real confusion, so first of all, around separation, we have to think like, what’s really going on? Well, we are a secure base to a kid, right? We are the person they feel safe with, kids need to attach to us to survive. We give them food, shelter, and water validation, love all the things they need. So being distant from us is like a big threat. So it’s scary. Yeah, it’s scary. So of course, they have feelings. So the first thing to think about is how can I make separation moments like more manageable for my kid, and a lot of that has to do with what we do in advance. So I always think about how can we make the unfamiliar more familiar. So what’s unfamiliar going to school being in a new place like the moment of separation well, making up a separation routine in advance, talking to your kid about what’s going to happen like exactly what’s going to happen. Practicing that routine, that all makes it more familiar, and then the boundary part is important. Telling your kid what you’re going to do matters. And then I’m going to leave, and if you’re crying as an example, that’s okay, you’re allowed to be sad. Mom knows you’re safe and mom knows, I will come back and we will be back together. If you cry, I’m gonna get you to teach her Anna and she’s gonna sing Twinkle, twinkle, I told her, that’s your favorite song. And then I know you’re gonna have a fun day like everyone else. So let’s fast forward to like the moment you’re there. You’ve practiced the routine. Now at least your kid has an element that they feel mastery around instead of unfamiliar around and your kids, crying. Right? Now, there’s a little bit of an assumption here is that I’ve determined as a parent, that the person in place I’m leaving, my kid is safe. If you don’t feel like your kid is safe, then we shouldn’t be leaving our kid. They can’t feel that way.

Gloria Riviera 

So that is an assumption to make sure our listeners are aware of like we’re talking about a scenario in which you feel good about walking away.

Dr. Becky 

Yes. And if there’s not one, if you don’t feel good, I think there’s a couple things you can think okay, how much is like, we all bring our anxiety into it. Right? Can we separate that? But also, like, if you don’t have a childcare option that you feel safe for your kid, yeah, there’s a major systemic issue. Like that’s not your fault, but no wonder nobody feels good about separation. Like, we can’t solve that.

Gloria Riviera  16:13

And that’s the reason for this podcast. But we are assuming we feel good about the place we are leaving our child.

Dr. Becky 

Then I think what we really need to do and this is what I think is so important for parents, is we need to both going back to our job, validate our kids hesitation. While not like being taken over by it, we’re taken over by their hesitation and nerves, then it’s actually scarier to them than anything else, because they’re like, Wow, nervous about it. But my feelings just overwhelm my parents. So maybe the separation Whoa, it actually is as scary as I feared it was, holy moly, I am not definitely letting go of my parent, right? I often say to parents, we have to see something in our kid. Before they can see it in themselves. We have to see their coping before they can access it. Right. So words like it’s okay, if you cry at drop off, tears or no tears. Dad knows you’re safe. And you’re going to have a good day. I’ve said to my kids before, knowing that tears were coming. Some kids cry at drop off. Some kids don’t. Both kids can have a good day at school. Like kind of just like this is part of their arc. So being able to hold that boundary and being able to like see something in our kid that they can’t yet see in themselves wall, allowing for their emotion. We don’t want to say stop crying. It’s no big deal. That’s very direct. It’s like cry, and I know we’re gonna be okay. And then get out.

Gloria Riviera 

When we come back, Dr. Becky tells me why she thinks timeouts are not the answer. Stick with us. How did you find your way to this work?

Dr. Becky  18:10

How did I find my way to this work? Well, I just like I’ve always found people to be like, infinitely fascinating. Like, I just I love asking people questions. I love learning about them. I love learning about their families. I love learning about intergenerational stories like I just always have. And then I think in college, I was like, oh, there’s like a career for this. Like I could actually make a career out of getting to know people. That’s pretty great. So studied psychology there, I was like, that’s amazing. Gotten to Columbia’s PhD programs, I was at Duke at the time, I got to come back to New York, where I’m from this area. And there I was in the adult and child tracks. I work with adults, adults psychotherapy and kids and my work with kids I loved but I loved working with the parents more. And I also felt like my impact was greater. I was like, oh, well, you’re in your family home, way more often than you’re in my therapy room. And I think child therapy is amazing, and so helpful. So that’s not what I’m saying. But I was like, oh, I would just love to work with the parents and be in the system. And so that was always interesting to me. Then I had my you know, my first kid and I started doing more and more parenting work. And then I had before I had my second kid, that’s what I should say. Like, I would be teaching parents all these things and I loved how actionable it was and concrete and allowed me to take it just allowed me like distill so much psychological deep knowledge, but translate it into actionable strategies, which I like. And I remember parents like struggling with their kids. And I would often think like, I think you’re not doing it right. Or like I don’t know if you’re like, you know?

Gloria Riviera 

The daughter of the non-judgmental mom was saying wait a minute. Not sure that’s the right way to go.

Dr. Becky 

And then I had my second kid and that’s when I deeply feeling it. I was like, Okay, wait, like kids are just infinitely complicated. I always feel like kids end up needing different parents. like they all need different parts of us to come to the surface. And then honestly, how I really came to this was I was like, I’m gonna learn everything about parenting, I want to get trained. And I got trained in this, like evidence based approach. And it was all about timeouts. And, you know, and punishment and rewards and sticker charts. And at first I loved it until the moment that I was like, wait, like, I would hate being treated this way

Gloria Riviera  20:19

I know, you just said timeouts. And I’m thinking of my research before this, and I’m like, I don’t think she loves the timeout. You’re shaking your head.

Dr. Becky

I don’t. But I went all that way. Because that was like, quote, the gold standard. And then it was really took that for me to think, Wait a second. Like, this isn’t right. Like, there’s no way that something that feels so wrong, that something is so against, like, how I would want to be treated if my husband was ever like, you’re rude. Have a timeout.

Gloria Riviera 

Yeah, go sit in the corner. Don’t talk to anybody.

Dr. Becky 

Yeah, my kids are humans, just like we are. So I really I was like, what if I took everything I know, from my doctorate from my family, from my work with adults in deep psychotherapy. And really, like reversed engineered that back to today’s parents to wire kids in ways that maintained kind of being adapted. Instead of all the ways we all were wired that we have to like unwire. Yours as an adult. Yeah. So and I just remember thinking the thing about timeouts and punishments and sticker charge that parents, I think, really love, again, is that it gives them clarity. That at least they can say I know what to do. And I just think all of us, me, too, we will all choose clarity over something that feels right. Like it just so bad to feel confused about something that matters to you. Yeah. And so I remember thinking, okay, well, if I’m going to kind of create a new approach, I have to make it as concrete and palpable, as the like, timeout sticker chart approach. Like, I have to make strategies and scripts, you know?

Gloria Riviera 

So when you look at early child care, and I don’t know how much you’ve worked, you’ve done focusing on that or hearing from parents or stories? This is what’s happening in my kids. You know, daycare center with his teacher, her teacher, their teacher. But how do you see what you’ve come to, right? Which is not timeouts? What examples do you see of what you believe in, in early child care and early education? Before kids go to public school?

Dr. Becky  22:20

Yeah, I mean, I do hear a lot. You know, it’s interesting now we have this whole platform and this like, amazing community, and it’s global, it is so global, I mean, my Instagram is only 65% US that’s really different than most parenting accounts. It’s like, so we have members in the platform, from Nigeria, from South Africa, from Guatemala, from the Ukraine, from Australia, from all over, over 30 countries. And what I hear a lot of in the early years, is, it’s a struggle for these parents for like, I feel so good about the system in which I raised my kids, kind of, like good inside where we want to call it approach. But like at school, you know, when my kid had a hard time and hit another kid, like, not only was he sent to a timeout, like, you know, he was like, basically called a bad boy, like, you know, or he, and like, this is hard to reconcile, you know, or my kid is getting stickers for like using, I don’t know, for saying nice things. And now all of a sudden, they’re coming home being like, oh, where’s my reward for doing things that I was like naturally doing without a reward.

Gloria Riviera 

It’s instilling this expectation in a small child, because that’s what they’re getting in there during the day, wherever they are, but it comes home and the parent is a little confused over how to respond to that expectation.

Dr. Becky 

Yeah. And look, I actually, I really tend not to be that rigid about most things. And definitely not about parenting stuff. So like, I don’t think kids have to be like parented or care given wherever they are, in the same way. Like definitely not, there’s benefit to like having, if you feel generally safe, like there’s benefit to having people do things, different ways. So, you know, there’s something be said for those kids and talking about, you know, those differences or what that was like, but yeah, if you’re sending your kids somewhere for hours a day, and they’re doing things in a way that doesn’t really feel right to you, you’re really in a bind. And it’s funny, like, it’s actually recently came up, we’re like, do like accreditation for preschools, because there are good inside preschool. And it was like a light bulb. Like there’s not but some point maybe that’s in the roadmap, but there’s no parent who doesn’t want to do right by their kids. And, like, you know, this, like if there aren’t always, you know, options that are perfectly in line with your values.

Dr. Becky  24:36

I mean, the second, definitely, I mean, that’s a big conversation.

Gloria Riviera 

I mean, I want to ask you, because I imagine you have a wide array of different kinds of parents that you counsel, would you ever tell them what to look for in an early childhood program in early education center, and obviously we want to caveat we’re talking about people who have choice. The vast majority of our listeners do not have a choice or their I mean; I’m thinking of people who work at night or people who are juggling two jobs or the whole subsidy system. I mean, it’s so riddled with impossible pathways forward. But let’s talk about the people who are trying to find somewhere for their child. And they’re trying to be a conscious parent. What do you tell them to look for? And does anyone ever come to you and say, I’ve had to settle for this place because they can take my child?

Gloria Riviera 

The second definitely a lot of people saying..

Dr. Becky 

I don’t feel great about where my kid is. And it’s the only choice and how can I make the best of it.

Gloria Riviera 

Are you doing some triage with those parents to say like, this is what to look out for. This is how you can receive your child at home.

Dr. Becky

Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, when you ask that question, like, my body reacted, and I was like, why I don’t think my stance usually with parents, whether it’s about preschool, or their families, or what’s going on their home is ever like, here’s what you need to do. As much as I think our approach I think what’s really resonating with parents, it’s, it’s very much helping parents like access what I consider to be like, inside every person, like kind of a cult, like a sturdy leader. They’re like, sturdy pilot, like I feel like we all have this kind of like knowing inside of us, no one giving it to us is going to help anyway. And so I feel like what happens in terms of like, what should I look for in a preschool, what I would want to say back to that parent is like, Well, tell me about the things that matter to you. Yeah, like, okay, so that matters. Okay, well, what about that really stands out? Okay, so there’s something about this, to me is like, just, I think our kids feel this from adults more than anything else. And it’s like, when your kids are struggling, is like, do they feel like an adult is looking at them? Like they’re a good kid having a hard time or a bad kid doing bad things? That to me is a difference.

Gloria Riviera  26:49

That is such a quote, yes, yes, a good kid having a hard time, or a bad kid doing bad things.

Dr. Becky 

And how we intervene. It’s not like, we can only pull out an intervention from the bucket we’re in. So if you’re in ah, like, why is my kid being so defiant? Like, you know that word, I don’t like someone who’s, as soon as you name something as defiant, like that is a bad kid doing bad disrespectful things. I know how a parent or caregiving center or whatever daycare is going to respond versus, that’s a good kid having a hard time, like the intervention would just be totally different, right? So often, when I do talk to parents about their childcare school options, that’s almost always what they get to, that like, forget what they call the center, like, I want someone when my kid is struggling to look at them and intervene with them, like they’re a good kid having a hard time, not a bad kid doing bad things.

Gloria Riviera 

And so what do they say when they tell you they’ve had to settle or this won’t work, or we didn’t get off the waitlist, or this is what we can afford right now did you ever come into those conversations?

Dr. Becky

You know, often they say like, do you have like some documents to share with them? That could be like conversation starters about why not doing punishment, and not doing timeout, why that’s not like, letting a kid off the hook. That’s always what people think, you know, do something I could like, share with them. Like, can we collaborate and find something in the middle, right? So sometimes we’ll help parents do that. It’s actually something we’re thinking about a lot in our platform is like, how do we take these ideas and create like documents or handouts just to like, start conversations with, you know, institutions or things like that. And then, you know, something I think we missed as a parent is like, daycare did something a different way. Or this happens with divorce a lot to like, my kid is that another, the other parent, like, oh, I can’t believe they did that. And often we center like our feelings about it instead of our kids feelings.

Gloria Riviera  28:36

All the time, I mean, I work on that hourly.

Gloria Riviera 

After this break, Dr. Becky tells me why that mom guilt you’re feeling might not actually be guilt. Plus, your real childcare moments, the voices of our no one is coming to save us community. Those are coming up right after this. I want to go back to mom guilt and I imagine when people are telling you I had to leave my child in a place that I don’t think is all that great. That goes into that bucket. How do parents navigate that? I mean, I’m feeling it right now, because I had this interview at the same time my daughter needed a tooth extraction because her adult teeth have come in right behind her baby teeth. So I had to ask for help. And I couldn’t be there. And you know, I feel pretty crappy about that. But again, it’s okay, I’m doing what I need to do. How do you navigate mom guilt?

Dr. Becky 

Exactly. So I think there’s a lot of power to realize like Okay, so maybe my kid is in a daycare center that like I don’t like I still generally think they’re safe. Like they’re not, there’s no like, you know, they’re not being hit. They’re not being the little, they’re not being threatened or they’re just like really not doing things the way I want. Well, if I really sent her my kids experience, then I might you know, my kids not saying I wish everything was the same, my kids just saying like, I had a bad day. So then I might be able to say to my kid, like, wow, that’s really tricky. Like when you, I don’t know, when you have a hard time at our house we do this, when you have a hard time at daycare, they do this like that’s really different, right? Even just saying that, is probably more what a kid is looking for, than I am going to call it the daycare director and have this talk with them, which maybe we want to do also. But I can tell you, your kid in that moment just wants to feel less alone and something that happened that day. Right? You know, so remembering that I think can give us a little empowerment as a parent before we try to which also is important like let’s change, let’s burn the whole thing down let’s change the whole thing. But before we do that, often a kid just needs their experience labeled and understood by you. And that’s going to actually help them hold on to the fact that they’re a good kid because like my dad saw me that way, even if they’re getting a punishment or a timeout.

Dr. Becky 

Guilt is like, honestly, one of my favorite things to talk about.

Gloria Riviera

Let’s talk about guilt, everybody!

Gloria Riviera  30:00

I can talk about guilt for, like hours. So first of all, I think there’s two ways we feel guilt, and one is guilt, and one is something else. So what you’re talking about I feel like is like true guilt, Gloria, you’re like, in theory, like I would love to be with my daughter at this appointment. Like those are some of my values to be there in hard moments. And in this moment, for whatever, for this reason we’re recording. Now I feel guilty top, I’m like, […] we were just like guilting together.

Gloria Riviera 

Producers, you needed to put this at a different time.

Dr. Becky 

But guilt I think is like when we’re not acting in accordance with our values. That’s true guilt. And I’ll talk about how to manage it. The other thing I have to say, because so many women experience this is the guilt of like, I said no to I don’t know, I am so tired. And I can’t go to my friend’s birthday. I don’t know, what are the kickoff, my friends, they asked me I feel so guilty. And you’re like, that’s actually acting in accordance with my values. So I’m like taking care of myself. Or I told my partner, this is a good one, like, I need to sleep in. Can they get up with the kids on Saturday? My partner kinda went like this, like, oh, I don’t know.

Gloria Riviera  32:28

That happened to my house recently.

Dr. Becky 

And then it’s like, I feel so guilty. That is Yeah, guilt. This is something especially women do. That is somebody else’s distress or disappointment that we as women have learned to take in? Yeah, open our pores and take in and it translates into guilt. That is not guilt, we need to get that feeling back to its owner. That is someone else’s feeling. It wasn’t ours.

Gloria Riviera 

I love that, we need to give that feeling back to its owner, I’m not responsible for your distress over getting up.

Dr. Becky 

And again, it goes back to those jobs I and we talked about that guilt, which is not really guilt. And the first one was really is but to me the intervention for that given it’s not actually really our feeling is boundaries, like whoa, how did that feeling come out of let’s say in this situation, my husband’s body, coming to the air, morphin to disappointment and like, enter my body. Like how did that wizardry happen. And I need to put up a boundary by first really saying, and I like put my hands up for everyone who can’t see me and I literally do like push it away. Not like, I hate you get away from me. But like, that’s not my feeling. And then once I see it as my husband’s feeling, I can do the other part of my job, which is empathize. Like I could actually say to him, I know getting up with Arthur’s kids. It’s like, it’s a lot, I really appreciate you doing that, that I can now empathize with him. Because I didn’t take the feeling in his mind. So that’s not guilt. That’s someone else’s disappointment. And like, there’s a million ways to think about iterations on that the first skill, which is like, Yes, I am not acting in accordance with my values. I did miss the dentist appointment, or like, oh, I yelled at some person who didn’t open the door for me, but really, I’m like, so not mad at that person. I’m, like, you know, my boss, or whatever it is. That guilt, I feel like I don’t know where we all learn this, but some idea like how do I get rid of that guilt? That’s always how do I get rid of guilt? How do I reduce guilt? I just feel like we don’t get rid of the emotions and sensations that live in our body. Like you can’t run away from your own body like that’s anxiety, right? So like, you can’t do that. What I think we need to do more of is like relate to our guilt is literally say hi to our guilt, right?

Dr. Becky  34:37

So if you visualize with me like a container in your body, like a big container, the only reason any feeling feels so bad is that it’s like taking up the whole container. So whatever other feelings might float around, I always imagined like oh, they’re just like crowded out. So now there’s no room for joy or pride or whatever it is. Once a feeling becomes a little more contained within the jar, like the feeling is still there but it doesn’t feel like all of me, it feels like a part of me, right? And the irony is, every time you make a feeling go away, it’s like a toddler trying to get your attention like it is Mom, mom, mom, mom, I see you. I see you; I still need you to wait. But I see you, I know you have something important to say. And I’ll be back to you in a minute. So I feel like there’s like steps to managing guilt. Number one is realizing I want to relate to it, not get rid of it, to put that into action. Literally saying hi to it, or giving it a name. I do this with my anxiety. But the same thing works with guilt. Like, oh, hi, Annabelle, like, oh, there you are. And then reminding a feeling of its intended function is like very respectful to it. And when anything feels respected, it simmers down. Like you’re trying to remind me of my values. And I appreciate that. Look, things happen. I made a mistake, or I can’t I had to make a different decision today. But I appreciate what you’re intending to do. You’re like maybe overzealous right now. But like, I hear you. And then there’s something to this beautiful language that Richard Schwartz came up with. He’s the founder of internal family systems theory, which is like, deeply inspirational to my work. And he just says, I’m just gonna ask you to step back. Yeah. You know, I’m just gonna ask you to step back and have to go away. But I always picture it is like, there’s all these feelings, like at a boardroom, and I’m the CEO, and guilt is like trying to take over my CEO seat. And I’m like, look, I’m gonna sit down, like you can stay.

Gloria Riviera  36:24

You can stay in the room, but just like, take a seat. Which is oh, so different. I’m sorry, I don’t mean to cut you off.

Dr. Becky 

It’s no different than what we usually do is like, get out of the room.

Gloria Riviera 

Well, what I’m thinking is like, I tell myself, my daughter will be fine, she will be fine. Going to the dentist with my neighbor. Like, that will be okay. We had a conversation about it. But that makes no space for how I am in that moment, or how I am interpreting, digesting, processing my own mom guilt.

 

Dr. Becky

Yeah. And I feel like also it puts pressure on the kid to be like, I was fine. I was fine, when in fact the kid might have been, I mean, listen, I tried, I tried to make space for her fear, and it’s gonna hurt. But if I just say like, she’s fine, we’re never gonna have the conversation about where you actually okay, how was it for you?

Dr. Becky 

I think that’s exactly right. And like, you know, a couple things about that it makes us do all these like equivalent things like no, they’re fine, because I was with him yesterday, like we get into these like games with ourselves like, yeah, and it also doesn’t allow us to center our kids experience, like, when you see your daughter later will be really helpful to be like, hey, I wasn’t there, like that probably felt bad to you. Honestly, it felt bad to me more important is that it felt bad to you. And I’m sorry. And like, if you talk to your guilt and allow it to be there, you actually have space for that intervention. Because you’re showing yourself wait, this guilt doesn’t like make me a bad mom. I’m just feeling it. It’s a part of me, it doesn’t define me. And now I can show up for people versus and I’ve been there too. And of course, probably earlier today when I get into, Oh, it’s fine. They’re fine. Like, that’s just going to impact how I relate to my child after because then her feeling upset. is like, she wasn’t fine. That was the equivalence I came up with to move on from this situation. Right? And then like, it ends up working more against everyone.

Dr. Becky  38:13

Exactly. And, you know, when I think about anything about parenting, I’m always like, Okay, what do kids need now, but also, the way we interact with our kids today impacts, you know, the majority of their lives that they live, hopefully, like outside our home for me, hopefully, right? So the way I kind of set patterns with my kids are in close relationships, imprints on them around their expectations later on, and like what I know later on, let’s say my daughter, if she’s a partner, my son, and he is a partner. Like, they’re gonna be upset by their partner, like, that’s inherent to a relationship, so we have an opportunity now to be like, yeah, and you’re loving relationships, sometimes, people have to do something for themselves, that isn’t great for you. And then you know what the answer is, you just talk about it. And that’s it, you know, but I want my kids to have that practice with me. So that those things come, you know, more naturally, like, I always, like, that’s the best gift for my kids, if I can give them experience now that they can draw on, in their close relationships, you know, and their important moments later on, they’re never gonna probably see it. They’re never gonna thank me for it exactly. Because it’s like, you know, hard to name. But that’s what they want.

 

Gloria Riviera 

It makes me feel good about saying last night to my son who lost his entire lab report and was handling it, but it makes me feel good to have said to him, dad asked me if I wanted to go for a walk and hold hands. We’ll be back in 10 minutes. Like just to say, acknowledge a loving touch, acknowledge that we’re taking time to do that. And nine times that evening, I was like, we can’t do that. We don’t have time for work. We don’t have time, you know, just to say in front of them. We’re doing this and that’s a new skill for us. I know you’re gonna have a lot of answers to this question and I want to step into ideal world land now like now we’re living in a country that provides what Many other countries provide, right? Which is a comprehensive, affordable, accessible childcare system. How would that allow us to be better parents, if we had a place that we trust it, I mean, I’ve spoken to American parents who live in Germany right now where they have a wonderful system. And they say, we’re not coming back until our kids are old enough to go to school, we’re just, we won’t have the support we have in Berlin, if we were to come back to the states, like they think it’s crazy that anyone would raise children in this country. So what would that system be like? Even if it wasn’t your most ideal place to drop your kid every morning, what if there weren’t enough spots? What if there was like, how would that help parents?

Gloria Riviera 

Like it’s hard to answer that question, because it’s almost like, how wouldn’t that help parents in every single way? Right? So how would that help parents like every parent wants to like, give the best to their kid, they care about their kids so much. So the overwhelming stress of not having a place, not having anything that’s stable, not having options, right, or the stress of like, where that is in finding it and fit like to think about the energy around that instead being spent on things like, you know, I’m going to take that stress management course to manage my stress, I actually have the energy to take that because I’m not running through all those hoops. I also think, like I said, this early. Parenting alone, like parenting is the hardest job in the world. It is the hardest job and it is 24/7 for the rest of your life, especially when your kids are young. They’re living with you. That is so hard. You can’t do it alone. And so I guess I think of like a good childcare option. And that way as like, that’s part of that’s like a key part of your village.

Gloria Riviera

Yes, yes. Yeah, it absolutely is. I mean, does that weigh on you when you speak to parents who are struggling through parenting? Does the lack of a village weigh on you, for parents who come to talk to you about their challenges?

Dr. Becky  42:15

Well, a couple things. The answer is yes. And I feel like one of the best parts of this whole like journey I’ve been in the last two years, and I started Instagram account. And podcasting has led me to talk to so many like really amazing, interesting people like you. And I think of […], who, you know, take a much more sociological approach, right? versus my like, I’m a psychologist, right? So I’m really focused on the individual. And they’re much more focused on the system. And I feel like I’ve learned so much from them, right not to say ever, I would think like, oh, it’s all your fault, you can change it. Like, obviously, there’s systems at play. But I feel like I’ve learned so much about how the system is not set up, for us to feel good or to, you know, thrive in any way. So I feel like, yes, parents not having this village weighs on me. And like, I feel like I’m a learner in this process, and having my eyes more and more open to so many, you know, kind of larger sociological themes. The thing I would say about the village also is it’s one of the things truly it was one of the biggest things that led to this platform. I don’t know if you know, this platform that launched like, six weeks ago, right? Where, what was happening on Instagram, and honestly, in my workshops, I’d have these live workshops, and the chat was like, oh, my goodness, like, I’d see the chat going off. And I didn’t care and take a person who’s like, I don’t even know if anyone’s listening to what I’m saying I maybe should just stop talking. So they could like all talk to each other.

Gloria Riviera 

Like group therapy here, like maybe I’m just gonna take a seat here.

Dr. Becky 

It sounds like people need each other. So the platform, one of the reasons is like you can’t just take a parenting course, you can’t just watch a video, you watch a video, you take the best course in the world. And I think my courses are the best in the world. Still, you’re watching it alone in your house, you turn it off, and you’re alone. So I was like, What if people could have access to the content that felt right to them? But do it and then immediately be able to go talk about something with another parent? Yeah. Because I think when you learn something new, in anything, definitely in parenting, learning something new and changing sits right next to learning something new and feeling guilty and bad about yourself, oh, I can’t believe I did do it this way. And I think the thing that allows us to change as opposed to shut down is not feeling alone, because then other people can reflect to you essentially, you’re not alone. You’re a good parent who was having a hard time not a bad parent. Who messed up their kids, not a bad parent doing bad things. Exactly. And I’ve seen the community in this platform, the way parents are showing up to each other knowledgeable, non-judgmental parents. I feel like they always say Becky, this whole digital library you’ve created is amazing, but like, really like this community and the fact that I can be connected to so many other like valued parents. That’s where you know, that’s where I feel like I’m really growing.

Gloria Riviera  44:55

That sounds like it’s what gives you hope. Which is how I like to end every episode. So, so thank you for taking us there. Thank you, Dr. Becky, for your work all of it on your podcasts, on this platform, we will provide all that information in the show notes. As I said, at the beginning of this, many of my friends said, oh my God, you get to talk to Dr. Becky, and I listened to the show, you mentioned about working moms, and I, you know, I’ve started to digest a lot of your thoughts and expertise, and they’re all helpful. And they’re all pieces of advice that lead me to feel better about the job I’m doing. So thank you for that. It’s not perfect, but we’re getting there. And if my if my daughter gets any more teeth extracted, you know, I’ll think hard about whether or not I can be there. So thank you so much.

Dr. Becky 

Well, thank you. This is like really so meaningful, really enjoyed this.

Gloria Riviera  46:00

I love and I believe in Dr. Becky’s principle that the feeling of being alone is not a good feeling. This is so relevant to me right now with the ages my kids are happened to me and my daughter this very morning. But it is also relevant to parents with little kids in childcare. When I think about where to drop my child off my little baby mushy, that’s what I call my babies. I want them to be tended to, to be seen. And I want someone looking out for them as their brain develops, and they start to feel all the fields. Look if a timeout is a part of the plan at their childcare center. So be it. I can work with that. And you might have to do the same. But at least now we know what questions to ask when we are looking for good childcare options. And that lesson we just got on guilt. I told you, free therapy. Put that in your back pocket from now to eternity. A big thanks to Dr. Becky. Okay, get ready Voice Memo time, my favorite part of the show. And this is weird, because it’s not like this is great, right? These can be brutal, for sure. They can be sweet. They can make me smile in recognition of something I relate to. But these are mostly tough moments. And that the fact that so many of you are willing to share those tough moments with us. That is what is so beautiful. Your words, the idea you took out your phone and sent these small stories to me, that makes me feel less alone. So thank you. Here are this week’s voices from the No One Is Coming To Save Us community.

Julia 

This is Julia from Portland, Oregon. My daughter is in preschool right now. And normally I would be rushing to pick her up in about 10 minutes. But my husband is having to drop his dad off at the hospital and we share a car. So he has to go pick her up, which is kind of nice for me, which makes me feel kind of bad to be happy that my husband got delayed dropping his dad off for surgery, so that I could have another 20 minutes to myself. But that’s what I call a break. I don’t know what to say.

Speaker 4  48:25

Hello. I am about to go into work. I just listened to the most recent episode of the podcast on my way in and tag team parenting was mentioned and I am one of those families. My husband and I work opposite schedules. He works 14 to 15 hours straight, Monday and Tuesday, not even a lunch break in between. I work 312 hour shifts Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and then he goes back to work on Saturday. So we are left with only Sunday. And we basically do not see each other for the rest of the week for the most part. And while I consider myself very lucky to be able to do this. Just because childcare is prohibitively expensive, even with two good full time jobs. I also feel like you know, this is not lucky this is so difficult. And we pay such a high cost in our relationship as a couple because we don’t see each other and even though everything we do all that our all that we sacrifice is for our family. Sometimes I do worry that when life does calm down or kids are a bit older, we kind of come out the other end. What will be left behind you know our relationship are the bonds that we have. They’ve been stretched so thin. I kind of worry about what it’s doing to us as a couple.

Gloria Riviera  50:03

Oh, man, to that first mom, those 20 minutes that break that self-care. You do not have to feel, as you said, kind of bad. Because those 20 minutes clicking that now I’m like a clinical psychologist here, right? No, no, I am not at all. But I do think those 20 minutes are in keeping with your values of self-care. To me. That’s good guilt. ended that second mom. Well, that story just about tore my heart apart. That was hard to listen to for me, because my own marriage really took a hit. During a time my husband and I, we thought we were handling it all kids work, family, friends, all of it. We didn’t have tag team shifts. But we lived in two different countries for about a year. I had the kids with me. And we were lucky to as you said both have good jobs. But we didn’t do a great job of looking after our us. I thought we were doing okay, hindsight. When my husband and I came up for air, r us well, it was really hard. But I am so proud and grateful for the work we did. So good for you for acknowledging your concern about your us now. And thank you for sharing it. If you want to leave us a message, it is super easy. All you have to do is take out your phone record a short voice memo and send it to me at gloria@lemonadamedia.com. Send me your parenting wins your fails mom guilt moments and everything in between. Alright, that’s all for now. This episode was a doozy. I’m so glad we did it. And I’m so glad you heard it. Hang in there guys, and I’ll see you next week.

Gloria Riviera  52:00

NO ONE IS COMING TO SAVE US is a Lemonada Media original presented by and created with Neighborhood Villages. The show is produced by Kryssy Pease and Alex McOwen. Veronica Rodriguez is our engineer. Music is by Hannis Brown. Our executive producers are Stephanie Wittels Wachs, Jessica Cordova Kramer, and me Gloria Riviera. If you like the show, and you believe what we’re doing is important. Please help others find us by leaving us a rating and writing us a review. Do you have your own experiences and frustrations with the childcare system? Do you have ideas for what we could do to make it better? Join the no one is coming to save us Facebook group where we can continue the conversation together. You can also follow us and other Lemonada podcasts at @LemonadaMedia across all social platforms. Thank you so much for listening. We will be back next week. Until then hang in there. You can do it.

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