The End of Roe (with Lauren Rankin)

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Julián and Sawyer break down the devastating news out of DC in which a leaked draft opinion shows the Supreme Court’s decision to officially overturn abortion rights nationwide. They welcome reproductive rights activist and author Lauren Rankin to talk about the prospective end of Roe v. Wade and how it may set the scene for both a national abortion ban and other protection removals.

Follow Lauren online at @laurenarankin.

Keep up with Julián on Twitter at @JulianCastro and Instagram at @JulianCastroTX. Sawyer can be found on Twitter and Instagram at @SawyerHackett. And stay up to date with us on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram at @LemonadaMedia.

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Lauren Rankin, Lauren, Julian Castro, Sawyer Hackett

Julian Castro

Hey there. I’m Julian Castro.

Sawyer Hackett 

And I’m Sawyer Hackett.

Julian Castro 

And welcome to OUR AMERICA. This week we’re dedicating our entire episode to the breaking news from late Monday on which Politico obtained a leaked draft opinion from Justice Samuel Alito showing that the Supreme Court has officially voted to overturn abortion rights and has drafted an opinion to move forward. He’s quoted as saying in his opinion, we hold that row must be overruled. Now to break down the shocking yet, I guess, let’s just say unsurprising, but definitely shocking news, we want to welcome back writer and activist Lauren Rankin. You may remember her from a few episodes ago, we’re glad to have her back. She’s the author of the new book, Bodies On The Line at the frontlines of the fight to protect abortion in America. She’s written for The Washington Post for Teen Vogue, NBC News, Rolling Stone, Time and many more. She’s also appeared on Sirius XM, the BBC, CTV News, CBC Radio, Buzzfeed News. So you know, she’s a real authority and observer on this issue. And we wanted to bring her in today. And Lauren, thank you for joining us again, as I was telling you before we started, I wish that we were talking under better circumstances. Like you last night, when I got the news. I was shocked and infuriated. How are you doing? Where’s your head right now, after this announcement?

Lauren Rankin 

What a lovely question. I don’t know. I’m a little tired. It was hard to sleep last night. As you said this is wasn’t surprising to me, especially after the oral arguments. In Dobbs V. Jackson, women’s health, which is the case for which this draft of a ruling has come down, it seemed very clear that this Court was ready to overturn Roe. But to actually see it in front of you overturn Roe v. Wade, to look at those words and see that it’s actually happening. And to be clear, this is a draft. It’s not the final ruling yet. But it’s very clear that this is what the court is going to do. It’s heartbreaking. It’s horrifying. I know the human stakes of this issue, having been a clinic escort for six years. And I know what denying access to someone looks like. And that’s going to be happening on a scale that I think is really unimaginable for most Americans. But I am still here. I still have hope. Because if we don’t have hope, what do we have. And today is a day to grieve, tomorrow is a day to get to work.

Julian Castro 

You know, it’s that mixture of emotions and reaction that I’ve heard from folks. And as I watched cable news that I saw, there’s a sadness to it, and also an anger because they’re taking away a constitutional right and something that is so personal and so intimate. And the people who are doing this are this good old boys club of folks who were appointed by the majority, appointed by two presidents, George W. Bush, and Donald Trump, that didn’t even win the most votes in their election.

Lauren Rankin 

Yes. And that is reflected in the fact that polling is so consistent on this issue. The majority of Americans think Roe v. Wade should remain the law of the land anywhere from 60% to 70%, sometimes 75%. It has never dwindled below that. This isn’t actually an unpopular issue. abortion rights, enjoys wide legal support from the American electorate. So it makes sense that two presidents who never even achieved the popular vote, managed to appoint fanatical right-wing justices, one of whom Justice Samuel Alito is the lead author of this draft opinion that is completely out of touch with how Americans see this issue. Abortion is incredibly nuanced. It is not a Black and White issue. It’s like many other choices in our lives. We have to make the best out of a decision that may not be ideal, and for a politician or an elected official to determine what you get to do. And it’s clear from reading this draft ruling that this is the tip of the iceberg with this court. This is the beginning, not the end of restrictions, it’s important and unimaginable, and what they have set out to do for decades. And they did it. They planted the seed and denying President Obama, Merrick Garland appointment was the beginning of that really bearing fruit for them.

Sawyer Hackett  05:20

So Lauren, just to take a step back and give folks some perspective on what this is. Obviously, this is unprecedented, you know, Politico is obtaining this leaked draft, as you mentioned, this is not a final opinion of the court. They’re not announcing this decision. We don’t even know if this is ultimately where all the justices will come down. But they received this. This leak, in which Alito writes that Roe was egregiously wrong from the start and holds that Roe and Casey must be overruled. You know, it notes in there that abortion isn’t mentioned once in this entire opinion, which is just astounding, but you want to take a step back. And obviously, this is still very fresh, we’re still going to learn more in the coming days. But looking at that leak dependent, can you tell us a little bit about what it actually says? And then dive a little bit deeper into what you just mentioned about what its implications are for some other major fundamental rights?

Lauren  06:12

It’s interesting that Alito is the one who is the lead author on this opinion, because Alito is known for being acerbic and very blunt, and has a really far right worldview. I mean, even further to the right than typically, Justice Brett Kavanaugh. And so this ruling contains an entire roadmap for what is coming down the pike. So it clearly says that abortion isn’t mentioned in the Constitution. Therefore, it doesn’t deserve constitutional protection. It says that no such right is implicitly protected under the 14th amendment. And it also mentions that abortion is not deeply rooted in any sort of conceit of liberty in the United States, which is absurd. It’s not deeply rooted in any White cisgender man’s experience. But what really frightened me is that he also wrote that abortion has always been criminalized in the US, which is a patent falsehood. It’s clearly wrong. So abortion was actually legal and generally tolerated in the United States, up until the late 19th century, when medical groups in particular started consolidating power, because abortion was performed by midwives. It was something that was done in the community, to the point of quickening and quickening is typically when you can feel the fetus move. So Alito addresses that in this ruling, but he says that quickening happens at six weeks, which is absurd. No pregnant person feels their fetus move at six weeks, you don’t even know that you’re pregnant, typically. But then he also says, well, it doesn’t really matter. If you can feel it or not, because it’s criminalized. Anyway, he just makes up some sort of conceit of historical abortion law. But the thing that gets really interesting is when he basically lays out the roadmap for where this is going. So not only is abortion not mentioned in the Constitution, according to Alito, neither is the right to privacy. And the right to privacy is what all of these rights including same sex marriage, bans on anti sodomy laws and the right to contraception are predicated on in 1965, the Supreme Court established that the right to privacy exists in the Constitution, when it said that married people should be able to access birth control, striking down anti-contraception laws, that is where this is going and he plainly says it there is no hiding. There is no charade. It is over. They are telling you what they are going to do. They are going to overturn Roe vs. Wade. They’re not stopping there. What they want to do is end the fundamental right to privacy and the rights that are extended to marginalized folks, to people with uteruses, if you’re queer, if you’re trans, if you’re gay, if you’re Black, if you’re Latino, if you’re undocumented, they are coming for you. I know that sounds hyperbolic and crazy. But they literally lay it out here for you that they’re going to undo all of these rights that have been established in the past 50-60 years. So that we’re fundamentally framing what a right is based on a White male property owner, which is the origin of the Constitution. It’s clear as day. Anyone who doesn’t see that now, with this leaked opinion, even if this opinion isn’t what ultimately, is the final rule upon decision, even if it’s true leaked or softened, you now know you have it in Black and White. You know what they’re going to do. They’re telling you.

Sawyer Hackett  10:06

We should also note like it’s no coincidence that in the last few weeks, we’ve heard from prominent Republican senators questioning the Obergefell ruling on gay marriage, questioning Greenwald and the right to contraceptives, even questioning interracial marriage, the right to interracial marriage, like these things are in coordination. And like they know that this ruling was coming. They knew that it was going to be broad enough to encompass some of those other fundamental rights that we know like, this doesn’t seem to be this limited scope thing that Republicans have always just been anti-abortion and that’s what they’re going after here. That’s it.

Lauren Rankin

Yes, Republicans have been anti-abortion for a long time. But abortion has actually never really been the goal. It’s been sort of the weigh in, they’ve seen this the anti-abortion movement in the US is directly tied to the White supremacist Christian nationalist movement. When Roe vs. Wade was decided in 1973, the Moral Majority led by Jerry Falwell realized, so segregation has been struck down. Now. Women and people with uteruses can decide what they want to do with their own bodies. That’s a fundamental threat to establishing white male citizenship as the norm. So they rallied around abortion as sort of the issue that it through which they could maintain, and ultimately intervene to reestablishing white male hegemony as the dominant norm. And they did that they’ve done it for 50 years. The whole there’s a whole section in this ruling on Plessy versus Ferguson. That is just astounding. So if people don’t know what Plessy versus Ferguson is, it was the 19th century Supreme Court ruling that basically said separate but equal is okay, which is obviously absurd. It was overturned by Brown versus Board of Education in 1954. And segregation was struck down as unconstitutional. Alito is comparing this ruling, to Brown versus Board of Education. So yes, getting rid of the rights of an entire half of the electorate is very similar to when the Court struck down segregation as constitutional. They’re trying to do this song and dance, but they he mentioned Loving v. Virginia, which is the 1967 case that establishes the right to interracial marriage. All of those things are not explicitly mentioned in the Constitution. And if it isn’t explicitly mentioned in the Constitution, they’re coming for it, you know, what is explicitly mentioned in the Constitution. Black people are three fifths of a vote. I mean, these are the things that this worldview is so out of touch with, not just modern America, but even early 20th century America. This is not what this country believes in, I refuse to believe that the country doesn’t support this kind of worldview. But they’ve been hoodwinked for years. And now they’re doing it and it’s all coordinated. You’re exactly right. Sawyer.

Julian Castro 

Yeah. You know, to me, you know, there’s Rachel Maddow pointed out and it was like an exclamation point on the point that you just made that this is taking us backward completely, that the United States of America is on the brink of prohibiting abortion. And several of these Latin American countries, including Mexico, and a number of others, just made it legal.

Lauren Rankin

We’re behind Ireland and Guatemala at this point. And I don’t mean that as a knock to Ireland, Guatemala, lovely countries. But we are the only country in the developed world that is promptly moving backwards on this issue rather than forwards.

Julian Castro

People should point that out, because this country, and especially the ilk of folks, like, you know, Alito, and this conservative right-wing movement, likes to Bandy about the idea that this is the land of the free.

Lauren Rankin  14:04

And if we recall, someone called African countries s-hold nations, you know, African countries have most African countries at this point are going to have less restrictions on abortion than this country. And I also think it’s important to note that I don’t want to scare anyone, although this whole podcast has been really scary. So sorry, everybody, but they’re not stopping at Roe v. Wade either. And I don’t mean the rest of the fight to privacy. If Republicans do manage to take control of the House of the Senate and of the White House, they are going to try to pass a national ban on abortion. I live in Colorado, for instance, which just codified Roe v. Wade, and has set up a lot of protections in place. But if a federal ban comes down the pike that overrides all of that. So it is imperative right now that we remember, just because you’re in a blue state does not mean you are safe forever. And this should reveal to us that the Supreme Court is not sacrosanct what we think the rights that come down ruled from this, you know, sacred body are forever, they’re not. And this can be taken away from you at any time, which is why it’s so important to be involved as much as you can as often as you can.

Sawyer Hackett

So I’m glad you just mentioned this national abortion ban, because I think it leads us to the conversation on the filibuster. I mean, right now, it seems like we don’t really have a lot of hope in getting rid of the filibuster to codify Roe. It seems like Manchin will stand in the way cinemas likely to stand in the way I don’t think any Republican senators are going to join us even the ones like Collins and Murkowski, who were perfectly fine being lied to directly to their faces by Gorsuch and Cavanaugh and Amy Coney Barrett, and it’s pretty obvious to any observer that if Mitch McConnell were to take back the Senate, that he would get rid of the filibuster on day one to pass a national abortion ban, which Trump would sign. But for some reason, there are Democrats that are still hesitant just you know, a few minutes ago, in fact, President Biden said on the tarmac, that he’s not at a point yet where he would support getting rid of the filibuster to sign legislation codifying Roe, where do you think like the energy should be placed right now as Democrats as a party, elected officials? Is it just keep pushing on the filibuster? Should we point to 2022 to the midterms to expand our majority, maybe find some more senators who might be willing to do that? Where do you think we can start directing some of this energy, you’re former advocate and activist as well. So I’m definitely interested in hearing your opinion on that.

Lauren Rankin 

I do not think the filibuster is going to go away under a democratically controlled Senate. I think there are a lot of Democratic senators who want to get rid of it to codify Roe. I think directing our energy into that right now is futile. Joe Manchin is not moving, not moving. He loves being in the position he’s in he has all of the power and he knows it, and he loves it. He’s not changing. So no, I don’t think we should be channeling our energy, all of our energy into demanding that the filibuster is removed. I think we should continue to say that because that is a duh. But I don’t think that that’s what’s going to bear fruit for us. And I also don’t really think that pouring that energy into midterms is the way either. Granted, if you aren’t planning to vote in the midterms, you need to reevaluate some things. This is an extremely important midterm election, it’s really important that you do vote and you make sure that you know that the people you’re voting for where they stand on this issue. But honestly, what has worked so well for abortion opponents has been investing in the local, they have found local fanatics, they put them on school boards, they put them on city councils, they brought them up the chain from the local school board, to state senate, to House of Representatives to a cabinet position. I mean, Amy Coney Barrett has that narrative as well. And if we can actually invest in the local level, that’s where the power is right now, I believe. I don’t think that Biden, or some of the Democrats in the Senate, particularly Manchin and Sinema, really understand or are willing to do what needs to be done there. And I don’t mean that as a knock against Joe Biden, he can’t make the Senate do anything, theoretically. But the local is where the power is, if we can bring people up in a grassroots collective way that not only empowers mutual aid, so helping someone get an abortion at a concrete, direct community base level, but bringing the community into this issue. Part of how we got here, if we’re being really frank is that many politicians, people running for president were not willing to be as bold on this issue, as Secretary Castro as Elizabeth Warren, when they were running for president people shirk from talking about abortion because it’s deemed uncomfortable. It’s a political risk. Right? When it’s actually very popular and until we actually start embracing A, the word abortion and B, this issue as fundamental to people’s human rights. We’re going to continue to see this happening over and over again, we need a cultural shift in addition to a political realignment And, you know, that’s part of what I found so heartening when you ran Secretary Castro, because you were one of the few candidates who said the word, you talked about trans people accessing abortion, which really knocked me up for a loop. And that shouldn’t be rare. That shouldn’t be rare from a Democrat. We shouldn’t be waiting until now for the National Democratic organizations to finally say, oh, crap, bros on the line, it has been on the line. So to answer your question, with a little bit of rage and eloquence, I really think that the local level is where our power is now. And it might not look as sexy as what we think a victory should look like. But you know, what I found from reading my own book is helping someone on an individual level that is power. And that does fuel further change. And I really believe in that, I believe that’s the way forward right now,

Julian Castro  20:56

When you spent six years assisting folks to be able to access abortion care, be able to exercise this right that the Supreme Court is on the brink of taking away. And so I just want to talk to you based on that experience of the human toll that this is going to take, some folks are quick to point out that well, you know, let’s say you live in Texas, you’re still going to be able to go to a neighboring state to access abortion care, although that may change if there’s a federal ban that’s put in place under a Republican majority in Congress and President a president whose Republican and signs off on it. And as Sawyer has pointed out, and others, I have no doubt that if Mitch McConnell has his way, he will jettison that damn filibuster in a heartbeat to get a national abortion ban. I mean, let’s just focus on the people, the women who are affected by this. Just speak to that for a second.

Lauren Rankin  22:02

Anyone who tries to say that, well, if you’re in Texas, you can just like go to New Mexico. Okay, so you’re a pregnant, low income, undocumented immigrant in Texas, for instance, you live in the Rio Grande Valley, you find out you’re pregnant, you have two kids, you know that you cannot afford to have another child, you want to be able to take care of the kids you have. So you can’t go east, because that’s Louisiana, Arkansas, Mississippi, Georgia, all of those states have banned abortion now. You can’t go north, because that’s Oklahoma, Kansas, your only option is to go to New Mexico or even further to Colorado, you are facing something that is incredibly stressful, that you don’t want to deal with, that you don’t even really know how to deal with, that you don’t have the money to deal with, you probably can’t even afford to have an abortion in your own community. How are you going to get to New Mexico? Are you going to drive? That takes hours and hours and hours. What are you going to do with your kids? Are you going to leave them with someone? Can you leave them with someone? Are you going to take them? Are you going to take them out of school? Are you going to have to take time off of work? How much time do you have to take off of work? How much money are you losing? How are you going to find the funds to pay for this? If you have to fly from Texas, to Colorado or anywhere else, that’s 1000s of dollars. Where are you going to stay? You have to have a hotel. Do you want to stay with a random stranger, you probably don’t, you’re facing something really stressful? I don’t think people really think about the layers of logistical challenges that something like this is going to present to millions of people. Even if you have all of the resources in the world, and very few people do at this point, you still have to figure out the logistics of how to get somewhere. And for particularly low-income folks, for black women, for Latina women, for especially undocumented women, you have to put at risk so many things to get out of state, you have to risk possible criminalization, you’re undocumented, the last thing you want to do is get on a plane and fly somewhere and risk, you know, being exposed by law enforcement who are going to potentially brutally deport you. I don’t think people really understand the level of logistical and emotional trauma that exists for people trying to access basic care. If you needed to get knee surgery, if you needed to have something done to your heart, and you had to do all of that. And you had no health insurance coverage for it. You had to pay entirely out of pocket. How would that make you feel? abortion has been happening since the beginning of time, people have been having abortions, since forever, they’re not going to stop now. So you’re basically telling people either figure out a way to get potentially 1000s and 1000s of dollars and time taken off work to travel, to find wherever you’re going to go, because you probably don’t know what clinic in Colorado, if you’re coming from Florida to Colorado, you might not even have a winter coat. You might not have boots, like these things that I know that that sounds really small, but that’s meaningful for somebody that has a huge cultural shift. You’re coming from the Rio Grande Valley to New York City for an abortion, you’re going to be surrounded by millions and millions of people. It’s a culture shock on top of everything else. No one should have to experience that for any kind of health care. You can also you know, purchase medication abortion online. But you’re doing that now, when roe falls now, officially, and states ban abortion, they’re going to ban purchasing medication abortion online to you’re potentially exposing yourself to criminalization. Black and brown women have already been tried and convicted for having miscarriages for self-managing abortion, you’re opening yourself up to a whole host of potential trauma that could hurt your entire family simply to have a health care procedure, the stakes of that, like the human cost of that, when you really think of, think about that, as someone that you love. How would that make you feel? It’s horrifying when you think about it on a human level. Now multiply that by millions, and that’s what we’re facing.

Sawyer Hackett 

Lauren, I want to talk a little bit about what this means at the state level, because I think you mentioned like, I don’t think folks have a perspective on just what this actually pretends for people in red states. You know, there are 13 states that have these so-called trigger laws that I was hoping that you could explain a little bit about I tweeted about one last night in Texas, because, you know, we spent so much time talking about SB8 in Texas about what this six-week abortion ban, you know, this weird enforcement mechanism where people have to go to civil court. But this new law, under Texas law, the second that roe is overturned, that law is supplanted by a new law, which makes it a felony for a doctor to perform an abortion punishable by life in prison. And there’s no exception for rape. There’s no exception for incest. And that six-week period gets shrunk down to So what are these trigger laws do? And what kind of dynamic is this setting up between states with regards to abortion law?

Lauren Rankin  28:04

It’s a great question. So currently, I believe 13 states have what are called so called trigger laws. And these are bands that are designed to go into effect. If roe is overturned, the minute that it’s overturned, so for some states, like Tennessee has a trigger law. It’s 30 days after Roe vs. Wade is struck down that trigger law goes into effect. So if Roe is struck down officially tomorrow, 30 days from now, abortion will be criminalized, illegal banned in that state. Texas, as you mentioned, has one as well, right now they have that six week ban and a vigilante enforcement provision. That’s nothing compared to what’s down the pike. So if you live in one of these 13 states, within 30 days of this actually happening, whenever this ruling is actually issued, abortion will be illegal in your state. So those are 13 states where it’s immediately illegal. There are up to 26, maybe 27 states total, that will move to ban abortion, abortion will likely be illegal and more than half of the states in the nation. So just because your state doesn’t have a trigger law does not mean that you are in the clear, it’s just means that that immediately goes into effect. So if you’re in one of those states and you get pregnant in the 30 days between Roe vs. Wade being overturned, and then your trigger law going into effect, you are working on borrowed time to get an abortion in your state. And you probably won’t be able to, the other problem is all of these states are in the same concentrated regions. So the southeast will become a complete abortion desert. Nowhere in the southeast will there be a state that has legalized abortion, Texas, which is a huge state will ban abortion completely. So will Oklahoma which is moving and step of Texas, much of the Midwest, Missouri, Iowa, Nebraska, all of these states, so it’s an entire swath of the country, a vast geographic area that is going to ban abortion, whether it happens within 30 days, the next three weeks, three months, within the matter of a year, I believe those bands will all be implemented and on the books. And that will mean either getting people to travel from a region to another region, which is really difficult to do by car, or covertly accessing medication, abortion and hopefully not being identified by law enforcement.

Julian Castro  30:42

Before we wrap up our conversation, you know, we talked about the human consequences, I want to talk a little bit about the political consequences here. Because for five decades now, this good old boys club, these right wingers, these Republicans have been preaching to their base that they’re these warriors against abortion. And, you know, in every presidential election, in every state legislative election, they’re on the brink of actually accomplishing what they say they’ve wanted. But I don’t think that they have bargained for what they’re going to get for the anger, the backlash, as you said, the rage that a lot of people feel that a constitutional right is being taken away from them. What do you see as the political consequences if the Supreme Court, in fact, hands down, this opinion?

Lauren Rankin 

I think you’re absolutely right. I don’t think they’ve actually bargained for what’s to come. I don’t think they ever thought past this point they did in terms of all the rights they want to erode. But I really believe their thinking is we have the numbers, we’re gonna do it. I think so many people who are quietly pro-choice or quietly support the right to abortion, truly never thought this would happen. And I don’t blame them. It’s an absurd thing to think. And, you know, abortion rights organizations like Planned Parenthood and […], for years and years and years have been saying, row is at risk. After a while it feels a bit like the boy who cried wolf. Except, you know, now the wolf is like in the house and you’re dead.

Julian Castro  32:32

I mean, let’s be honest, right, like people start to write it off as a fundraising tactic.

Lauren Rankin 

And for, for some organizations, I really believe it has been that. I don’t think most people really thought that the court would do this. And now that they’re doing it, people are really forced to reckon with what kind of a judicial system do we have? If this is actually allowed to happen? You know, what does it mean that two presidents who didn’t actually have the popular vote, were able to appoint the majority of the justices on the court? Who are going to undo this right. I think there is a significant political backlash that will build I don’t know how that will play out in terms of the midterms. But when you take a right away, and something as fundamental and widely supported as legal abortion, you’re opening a can of worms, and you don’t know what’s going to come out. I also think, and I was discussing this recently with Mikki Kendall, who was the author of Hood Feminism, there could be a really interesting new kind of great migration that happens out of these states. You know, not everyone is able to leave, it’s expensive to leave. And people don’t want to leave their homes, you know, they love a lot of people really love where they live, and they love where they’re from. But you’re asking people to live in a state that doesn’t view them as a full citizen, worthy of protection by the Constitution. And I’m curious to see what that migration might look like, from states that have banned abortion to states where abortion is protected. If we don’t have a federal ban come down the pike. You know, it’s hard to imagine what we’re going to see but it’s going to look like unlike anything I’ve ever seen, and it’s also just hard to imagine. You know, I’m 36 years old, like I was born in a post roe world, women my age, have come of age, in a world where legal abortion was considered settled. I really hope to see a newly aligned intersectional coordinated movement defend all of these rights fueled by the rage of what’s happening and the proof of what they’re doing. Whoever leaked this, I don’t know who you were, I don’t actually know if it was a liberal clerk, a conservative clerk. But whoever did give us the roadmap for what they’re going to do. They told us who they are. Now, we have to believe them.

Sawyer Hackett 

Lauren, thank you so much for joining us on this really dark news day. Obviously there’s still a lot more to come. We’d love to have you back some time to talk more about this. But thank you so much for joining us and for sharing your perspective on this.

Lauren Rankin

Thank you so much and thank you for caring about this issue and fighting to protect it.

Julian Castro 

No, thank you, keep fighting the good fight.


OUR AMERICA is a Lemonada Media Original. Our Producer is Xorje Olivares, with executive producers Jessica Cordova Kramer, Stephanie Wittels Wachs and Julian Castro. Mix and scoring by Veronica Rodriguez. Music is by Xander Singh. Please help others find the show by rating and reviewing wherever you listen and follow us across all social platforms at @JulianCastro, at @Sawyer Hackett and at @LemonadaMedia. If you want more OUR AMERICA, subscribe to Lemonada Premium, only on Apple podcasts.

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