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Despite what the Republican talking points say, the latest debt ceiling crisis ended in another victory for President Joe Biden. Washington Post opinion writer Jennifer Rubin tells Andy why she believes that Biden might be having one of the most effective presidencies of all time, even outpacing Obama. Andy asks if Speaker Kevin McCarthy reigned in the far right and if centrism is making a comeback. Plus, Rubin explains why Ron DeSantis makes a lousy candidate for the GOP in 2024.

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Transcript

SPEAKERS

Andy Slavitt, Jennifer Rubin

Andy Slavitt 

This is in the bubble with Andy Slavitt. Welcome to the show. Feel free to email me at Andy at Lebanon media.com. I have a great show today to bring you. We’re going to talk to Jen Rubin, who is the Washington Post columnist who is going to break down the implications of what we learned about this debt ceiling negotiation. Dark Brandon on the one side, Mike Kevin on the other. I stole that, by the way, from my friend Jon Favreau. And it was not as people expected. I think we had a good show a week or two ago, and you need to go back and listen to it. We talked about what was really planning out in the debt ceiling negotiation. And the guests, we had posited the theory that this deal was pretty much done. And they were just waiting for the last minute so people couldn’t drag more out of them. And I think that proved to be correct. And Nick would also prove to be correct, is, as our guests will indicate, well, we should all be happy we get a deal done. We learned a lot about Joe Biden in the process and his mastery of going for the win by allowing the other party to look like they’re winning. And that is a skill that you don’t see very often in Washington where people are willing to let other people claim victory so they can actually win. Now there’s not everything in this compromises we’ll talk about is great. It’s certainly some things in here, the Democrats would never do on their own, and had to hold their nose for. But even those things, I think, as you’ll hear, the Democrats got something back that watered down whatever it looked like they were giving up. So what does this tell us about the president? What does it tell us about McCarthy in the caucus? What does it tell us about centrism and bipartisanship? Is is it seeing a last gasp? Is it seeing a new life? You know, this is a vote that was carried by everybody except people on the far right in the far left, politically, and you don’t see those votes on big issues very often, but it certainly was a triumph, even if it’s only one triumph of people who are willing to work together, such as it has become kind of a bad word. My partner Jim ships come by a bad word in certain circles. I personally think that most people in the country want to see that people can work together, no matter what they believe. They believe that, you know, if you’ve got a government that has some Republicans and some Democrats in it, that they ought to be able to work together, listen to each other, and get something done. And that’s the old fashioned way. And you can argue that that’s what happened here. But we’re gonna get into much more depth with Jen Rubin. I want to talk about one other thing before I bring her on. And that is that we have a new CDC director being announced. If you believe that media, and that person is Mandy Cohen. She’s a physician. She was the Secretary of Health for North Carolina. hugely popular, hugely successful. Prior to that she was also the chief of staff at CMS when I was the administrator. So she and I worked hand in hand for For a number of years, and so she is one of several people who I’d say I’ve worked as close with as anybody. And I think it’s very interesting, and quite positive. I think the country doesn’t know, Mandy yet. But you will, you know, she’s prime is to come on the show as soon as she’s announced. And you’ll see her everywhere. But I think, look, let’s just to take stock of where we are in the public health system, public health, and the CDC has lost a fair amount of credibility in Washington and in the country. And what we need is somebody who’s gonna come in and reform things from the bottom up, be a clear and crisp and clean communicator, be decisive, restore confidence, focus on things that matter to people. And take that journey back from public health. So I want to say I’m grateful to you Bandy for taking this on. It is a challenge of a lifetime. You’re gonna nail it. And I’m real proud of you. And I think the country is going to be thrilled by the choice. Once again, I think the administration is showing that putting good competent people in the right roles is what makes a great administration. And I applaud that decision. Way to go, everybody. I’m all in. Okay. That out of the way. Let’s go talk about this very fascinating. Last couple of weeks we had and what it mean for the next year and a half. Here’s Jen Rubin, columnist of The Washington Post.

Andy Slavitt 

Jen Rubin from the Washington Post, welcome back to the bubble.

Jennifer Rubin 

It’s nice to be here.

Andy Slavitt 

It’s been a while since you’ve been here.

Jennifer Rubin 

It has been I think you had just left government last time we chatted and things have been going just swimmingly since you left.

Andy Slavitt 

Everything’s going perfect, isn’t it in this country?

Jennifer Rubin 

The country’s good. Republicans have gotten their sanity back,

Andy Slavitt 

At least momentarily. Maybe that’s even partly true.

Jennifer Rubin 

As I was saying this, I’m thinking actually things aren’t going. Well. Biden actually did peel off what whether they were saying or just bamboozled Republicans, I he did pull it off once again, and one more bipartisan accomplishment. So he is the man who benefits the most from being the most underestimated politician in America.

Andy Slavitt 

Yeah, it feels like he said to McCarthy, if you let me win, I’ll let you pretend that you want.

Jennifer Rubin 

Exactly, exactly. And the press is. So I think credulous that they kind of play along? Well, we don’t know really, who won. And both sides got what they wanted. And so McCarthy either doesn’t know he got past or is pretending he didn’t. And ironically, the people who are telling the truth are the right wing Republicans who say you got nothing. And they’re right. This time, they stumbled into the truth, which just shows you a broken glass, because we’re is right twice a day.

Andy Slavitt 

But then they both get what they wanted. I mean, Biden is I think he’s willing to sacrifice, the media will have the moment to get the substantive when which I think you know, served him well, in the Senate, you could argue that in this day and age of social media and short attention span, that’s maybe not the smartest political orientation, or it’s certainly not the way many politicians are oriented. But, you know, he seemed willing to let McCarthy take the limelight, give him some kind of like, tree ornament, looking wins. And we’ll get into what those are in a minute. So that McCarthy could come back and, you know, claim me push Biden around. And Biden could just sit back and say, that’s great, but get pretty much what he wanted.

Jennifer Rubin 

I think that’s exactly right. And it drives a lot of progressives and progressive pundits crazy because they really want to show how irrational Republicans aren’t. And Biden is not helping to show what nuts these people are. But I think Biden has a different philosophy of government, which is he’s producing real results. He’s really affecting people’s lives. And he thinks that in the long run that will in north to his benefit, the country’s benefit. And so far he’s been right. He got himself elected. He did much better in the midterms that his party did than people expected. And the economic results I think, do speak for themselves. So we’ll see in 2024 Whether substance still matters at all in politics, but you do have to appreciate how unique he is how I want to say he’s ego LIS a but how little ego he has for someone in our current political atmosphere where everyone is a self promoter everyone is claiming to have slammed the other guy come out victorious made a fool of the other side. And that’s just that’ll be it.

Andy Slavitt 

Yeah, sort of he ran in this bizarre platform of maybe you want an adult who’s responsible? And I have to say we could talk about centrism in general. But like, you know, Ricci is not doing that. Well McCrone is that doing that? Well, Biden’s not doing that well, feels like they’re all hanging on, but not doing well in the polls. But But steering the ship? And is that because the countries around the world secretly want the adult? Are we just sort of at the last throes the last gasps of responsible governance?

Jennifer Rubin 

Well, I hope that the Biden experiment is teaching people that it shouldn’t be the last throes that this is what they really should want. And I think I’ve come to the conclusion that polls are fairly meaningless. It’s become culturally inappropriate to say, I think things are great, or I love Biden, or my Congress is doing a great job. People are so disposed to be cynical to be negative. And the media coverage, even when news is really good is so overwhelmingly negative. I think the polls have less than less salience. And we’ve seen a few of these focus groups now, which seems to leave the mainstream media gobsmacked. But shouldn’t, where they interview a bunch of voters and they say, Yeah, we really don’t like Biden, we really don’t like Biden, well, who are you going to vote for? If Biden and Trump are the nominees are Biden, of course. And I think that this is some great revelation. But of course, the only thing that really matters is how they vote a year and a half, or whatever it is from now. And I think the obsession with polling is so unhelpful for our political dialogue. First of all, it’s meaningless. And second of all, it prevents what I think someone like Jay Rosen, and others have described is explaining the stakes rather than the horse race, right? Or not, who’s ahead who’s behind? But what’s really happening, what’s important, and particularly at this crucial time in our democracy, what fundamental values do you really believe in? And if you’re just going to ask people, these kind of meaningless poll questions, or you’re going to do these he won, she lost kind of analysis, you really don’t get down to the meat of it, which is some fundamental principles of democracy are at stake, and one party has essentially checked out of our democracy.

Andy Slavitt 

You make a really, really interesting point about polls. And, you know, it almost to me feels like as I listened to you describe this, I really relate to this and that so many people are feel like they don’t have a voice. That when they finally get asked, Hey, how do you think things are going? It’s their chance to really say, you know, I really feel disenfranchised. And I really think people do. I do think people feel like they’re disenfranchised. But you’re absolutely right. That’s not the same thing as saying, Okay, you’re in the voting booth. And you’ve got two choices. You don’t have unlimited choices. You don’t get to say, I’m feeling crappy about our country, you get to say, A or B. And in that context, I don’t think that that’s the same thing. I think it may be very right about that. Okay, Jennifer, let’s hold that thought. We’re going to come back and continue that and also talk about where all this leads us in 2024. Bring it to the break.

Andy Slavitt 

Let’s go back and talk about this deal for a second. And just just ground people in what what was in it passed the House passed the Senate signed by the President. And the deal to me, if you can fill in where I was missing, seemed pretty simple. There’s a budget deal in terms of how much the federal government is going to spend, which, quite honestly, to me looks a lot like maybe even better than what they would have gotten if they would have had no debt limit argument if they just had either a continuing resolution or passed the budget which which wasn’t guaranteed. So that doesn’t feel very different. There are a couple of kind of notable highlight wins for McCarthy, namely that they have expanded the age from 49 to 54. To require people to work in order to get food stamps or SNAP benefits. But when you take an even small double click on it, it looks like actually more people will be qualifying for SNAP benefits than before. Likewise, TANF, which is income for needy families. There’s actually no less money being spent to substantively, you know, there’s there’s no difference. And then the big legislative wins on climate and student debt, and a next generation of vaccines and the IRS. There may be some slight tweaks and headline changes. But those are basically all 100% intact. That’s my summary. What am I what have I missed?

Jennifer Rubin 

I think that’s exactly right. And when you look at the IRS, there’s even less to than meets the eye, basically, that 20 billion that can be shifted to domestic programs. There’s a lot of discretion built in there on the timing of that. So according to the IRS, it’s really not going to impede their hiring in their enforcement efforts, which Biden has made a real effort to step up. So I think you’re right, that what Kevin McCarthy got was simply, Biden sat down with me and made a deal. That’s what he got. And Biden didn’t give up anything more than he would have given up in a continuing resolution, which was probably inevitable. As soon as you had one house that went to the Republicans in divided government, you’re not going to get big expansions. That’s what he got, in the first couple of years, what the play here was number one to prevent the company, the economy from going over the cliff. And number two to do no damage to any of his initiatives. And the remarkable thing is it’s all still intact. The tax increases in tech, the huge investment in green energy still intact. You know, you can go down the list, the infrastructure program, that trips program, all of these major bipartisan or in some cases, partisan accomplishments were not affected one iota. And when you look at what Republicans were asking for these draconian cuts, 22% 30% of non defense discretionary spending, it was ludicrous. And so I think considering how far each one of the moved if Biden moved an inch McCarthy and the Republicans moved kilometers to get to the bragging rights, if you will, for a deal.

Andy Slavitt 

We’re talking about this debt ceiling deal, which seemed like a very simple deal was probably baked a while ago, probably had to push to the last minute so that McCarthy could stop aside from asking for more. And you’ve written that it really is. It shows up that Biden is one of the most underestimated presidents or certainly politicians currently will tell us what you mean by that white why you think that what and what do we learn about Biden in his presidency,

Jennifer Rubin 

He is portrayed by Republicans and often by the mainstream media. It’s kind of a doddering old fool that he’s either out of it or that he’s not really in touch with what people want. Or Democrats accuse him of being too soft or being unrealistic. Stick about Republicans. So whether from the left or the right, the mainstream media, no one other than a few of us are willing to stand up and say he is having one of the most successful presidents in us in our lifetime. He is passing more legislation than any president since LBJ. He is fundamentally transforming the American economy by making these huge investments in the heartland, both on green energy and chip manufacturing and infrastructure. And oh, by the way to boot, he’s put together this formidable NATO alliance to oppose Russian aggression, and expelled expand NATO. So what more could you want, if you drew up the list of I’d like to have. And the job, of course, for progressives is if you want progressive gains, vote for a moderate, because they’re the ones who are going to be elected, and intellectual ideologically. They agree with improvements in the social safety net, they agree in the importance of investment to make American workers more productive. But they have some hope of getting elected. So I think if you had told me two years ago, that this would be the end result, I could have said, No way, the Republicans are way too crazy. Democrats are too unrealistic, Biden’s going to get only a fraction of that, but somehow he does. And I think had Elizabeth Warren been elected, which I don’t think was possible, I don’t think she would have gotten anything more and probably a lot less. So there is a benefit to having someone who is in his heart, quite a progressive, but understands the process, and is willing to get three quarters of a loaf over and over and over again. And that’s actually how you govern. And Democrats may have been ideologically, emotionally more enthralled with Obama, because he’s this inspirational figure. And he’s obviously a historic figure. But in terms of pure results, Biden has already I think, in many ways outpaced the Obama administration. Certainly, the Affordable Care Act will stand is one of the major achievements of the last, I don’t know, five or six decades. But even there, Biden, as you know, Andy, has expanded coverage. There are far more people under Obamacare, he has achieved improvements, including fixing the family penalty, including, for the first time in posing some cost containment, although it’s limited at the beginning on drugs under Medicare. So even on some of the signature accomplishments of the last Democratic president, he’s improved upon them. So I’m not sure what people are upset about, unless they don’t like high unemployment, big growth, you know, producing investments, I guess, if you don’t like any of that stuff, and you want to be miserable, and you want to be angry, is a really bad precedent for you, which kind of explains where the Republicans are at.

Andy Slavitt 

Let’s talk about McCarthy a little bit. What did we learn about him? Was he underestimated? You know, I think the narrative going into this was 15 votes weak speaker, many of us believed that if he was owned, by the far right, that he wouldn’t be able to get a deal done. And yet he’d navigated this. And despite the fact that his wins here, as we said, are really not that much. The fact is, we didn’t default. We got a deal done. He put down the fire, right? They look more marginal today than they did a week ago or two weeks ago. And he may look stronger. Do you agree with it?

Jennifer Rubin 

We’re gonna see, we’re gonna see what kinds of challenges there are two speakership, I think he really did exposed, that this threat of throwing him out of the speakership was really no crying wolf, and once that has been, I think, diffused, it will be perhaps easier going forward for him. I think there are two things that McCarthy has going for him, one is he believes in nothing. He has no fixed views on anything. All he wants to do is be speaker and remain in power and he is willing to say anything to anyone. And whether you think he actually believes it, and he is lying to himself or he’s not is it possible to tell, but he’s really willing to say anything to anyone to appear to have six See it. And that level of mendacity does work to his advantage, because he’s able to spin defeats as into victories, he’s able to throw a temper tantrum and say all kinds of bean things about the White House and then walk out the door with a deal. But that only works. If you have someone like Biden on the other side, it doesn’t work. If you have someone who is not going to play ball with this antics, who is not going to accept that, you know, he won something. It takes a special kind of President who will indulge McCarthy in order for this whole thing to work. So I think McCarthy is a political survivor. So he has that going for him. The lack of any subsidy believes is the second thing going for him. And the third is I think he does at some level, understand how nuts a big chunk of his party is. And he counted enough votes and was satisfied enough that there were only how many people that voted against 49 or something like that. The Democrats and that, as a result, he was going to use as many Democratic votes as he needed. Listen, without the Democrats. He only had 150 votes. Yeah, this would have gone down in smoke.

Andy Slavitt 

So yeah, he had more democratic votes than Republican votes.

Jennifer Rubin 

Exactly. So it’s not like he somehow persuaded the far right or the far right has suddenly seen the light. It’s that he was able to kind of ignore them by dealing with the least crazy people in his position. And with various skilled Democrats. A deal got done.

Andy Slavitt 

Let’s come back and finish up talking about the debt ceiling and then I want to talk about Donald Trump and Ron DeSantis. And other things you see shaping the election 2024 on both sides. Well, let’s start out on politics now. We’re obviously starting a primary election cycle. Let’s talk about what you see happening. You know, each primary and each general election kind of has its own flavor. There’s a different mood and a different set of issues that resonate in, maybe let’s start on the Republican side where you’ve got DeSantis and Trump that look like they’re going to be finally attacking one another, and a bunch of people that have no chance that appear to be running for vice president. And we have some really interesting things. I think, you know, people if people notice what happened in Texas last couple of weeks, where the Republican assembly, impeached the very, very far right, Attorney General Paxton, you have this this course this this debt ceiling deal. Both of those things, I think seemed none of us would have predicted going into this year that they would have gotten out of the way and they have and then you’ve got two people that are really don’t represent any of that kind of reasonableness that are seemed to be dominating. How do you see things shaping up on the Republican side?

Jennifer Rubin 

Well, as you know, in a primary, you are playing to the most radical sentiment of the base. It’s not only people who identify as Republicans, it’s people who are determined enough to get out. And the numbers when you look at them are so so Small in determining who the potential nominee is going to be, or the President of the United States, that it really is a contest of turning out your particular supporters. So Republicans are infamous for not caring about electability making an argument to them that will, the rest of America won’t like someone who wants to ban abortion is not going to be an effective argument in the primaries, it just isn’t. But where I have trouble getting my head around it, and maybe you have more insight than I? How do they expect to nominate someone who’s going to be indicted in multiple venues for some really serious crimes? It’s one thing to make fun of Alvin bread and decide that this is some Picayune little law in New York. It’s not by the way, but it’s another thing, if there was a mammoth indictment for serious violations of the Espionage Act, and obstruction of justice. And there’s potentially at least one other criminal case going on in Georgia. And perhaps by that time, an additional case by Jack Smith involving some parts of January 6, how does this work? Do these people really think these things are just going to go away? And their nominee is not going to have to worry about it? Are they really prepared to nominate someone who could conceivably get convicted either before he is elected or soon after? I just don’t understand how they think this is going to play out. And I guess I have to come back to these polls that in the abstract, if they are asked, do you want Trump? First of all, they’re compelled to take his side because whatever media pollster on they think, you know, it’s probably against Trump. But it really begs the question about, as a put it that, how is this supposed to work kind of question. And, strangely enough, I think the guy to push this issue and force Republicans to grapple with this is Chris Christie, who is one of the more articulate people who’s a former prosecutor who can speak with some authority about what happens when you get indicted, who has not drunk the Kool Aid on January 6, and having him if he makes it to the debate stage, make the case forcefully that this guy, you know, there is a much better than even shot, he’s going to jail? How is the average voter going to grapple with that? Does he say, oh, no, forget that. I’m just going to bet it all goes away. And we elect Trump, or is the average Republican going to say, Gosh, I don’t think we can go with this guy. It’s too big of a risk. Yeah, you know, we got to pick somebody else.

Andy Slavitt 

So look, I think there’s a couple of things going on here. And you hit on one of them early on what you said, which is, Republicans tend to be voting at least these day and age with their heart, not their head. And by that, I don’t mean that they’re not thinking, I believe that I mean, they’re not plotting for who’s most likely to win. They’re voting for who they want. Democrats appear to be just wanting to win wanting to particularly when Trump’s on the ballot, they dislike Trump even more than they like whoever they like, that’s doesn’t seem to be true. On the Republican side. I think the other thing that’s going on, is, you know, I think most people who are supporters of Trump would say, He’s no different from anybody else, ie Hunter Biden and his laptop, they would say that the more he is attacked, the more it proves that they’re right, that he is some great martyr. And therefore, you don’t abandon the person who’s being wrongly attacked. In fact, you and only makes you more strongly in their corner, if you’re so inclined to vote your heart, as we were saying earlier. And so I think that this explains why this solid core doesn’t dissipate. Now, the threats to that are if people they trust, abandoned Trump, so it’s not going to come from Biden or the New York Times, or in my view, even chris Christie, who they instantly will say, you know, he’s Rhino or he’s running against him or whatever. But you know, as people in that orbit peeled off, you know, or who they trusted, you know, equivalently that could make a difference. But, you know, even then you’re left with Ron DeSantis. And it doesn’t appear to me that the Republican Party is saying, hey, when we’re done with this Trump fever, we’re gonna go back to Mitt Romney and, and George HW Bush and John McCain. We’re gonna actually go to more palatable, effective versions of Trump. And as as DeSantis is saying, people to the right of Trump, you know, Trump’s about Trump, he’s not about ideology. There are ideological warriors that Did that I think look like they’re more likely to come in his wake. Then Nikki Haley or Chris Christie?

Jennifer Rubin 

Yeah, I mean, the thing about DeSantis is, if he were a normal, marginally likable human being, he should be able to win this on exactly that argument on you and I love Trump. We appreciate everything he did he slayed the dragon of Hillary Clinton. But it’s time to move on or, but he really is going to have to spend his time defending himself in all of these or we can’t risk him being convicted, even wrongfully convicted because we need to run the country. But he is such a dud, as a candidate. He is so incompetent and unlikable, that I kind of wonder if he’s not going to be the Scott Walker, or the Jeb exclamation mark of this campaign. In other words, the guy that the professional pollsters and pundits and a certain class of donors think is the solution to their problem, but it’s just terrible as a candidate. And if that happens, what is the alternative to Trump’s does that make room for someone like a Glenn Younkin? Does that make room for someone like Governor of Georgia to change his mind and decide that he’s really going to run for president? So the best thing Trump has going for him right now is that he is running against primarily a candidate who is such a clod that he could not even be Donald Trump. And I think DeSantis has been such a disappointment to those Republicans who thought they could do exactly what you just said. They could get a more palatable version of Trump, that they thought, Okay, this is our pie, we can do this. We can pull this off, we can keep the party together, we can have someone who’s not crazy and not go into jail and get what we want. The only problem is the candidate and they forgot to get someone who was marginally likable, who was marginally competent, his just awful.

Andy Slavitt 

I think he’s at least as likable as Scott Walker at least as likable as Scott Walker. Yeah, in its own. Yeah, I mean, look, if only we had a party that would elect Chris Sununu. It looked like my wife who is very clearly partisan, supportive. Democrats always says, We need two good choices. And she does not subscribe to the theory that let’s get the beatable person in the race. She subscribed to the theory, let’s have two good choices. And we’re all better for it. And as you look at how the race shapes up, if you’re Joe Biden in his election team, who do you want to run against? Who should you want to run against? And what kind of strength do you think he’ll go into the election with, and weakness and weakness, please, too,

Jennifer Rubin 

I think in their heart of heart of hearts, they would probably prefer to run against Trump. But having seen DeSantis and how bad he is, I think they’re marginally confident they could win against him as well. And the Biden team understand something else, that if the nominee is not Trump, Republicans are going to have a very hard time turning out their people, because there is a segment of the population, even if of their primary population and of the party at large, who is so enamored of Trump and became voting Republicans only because of him, that they may not show up even for a Ron DeSantis their loyalty is not to the party, their loyalty is not even to some wacko position. It’s to this cult leader, it is the cult of personality. And so I think the Biden team, obviously has to prepare for either eventuality, either Trump is the nominee, in which case, I think they’ve got, you know, stars in their eyes about going after all kinds of states that they thought were out of reach. And if it’s not, I think they’re going to play both to the weaknesses of a candidate like DeSantis, who is an unlikable kind of thug, or one of these marginal characters and kind of encourage a level of dissatisfaction among the Republicans. That’s kind of the thread that has always been out there about Trump that if he’s not the nominee, even if he’s on the third party, he’ll sit out there. He’s telling everyone to stay home. That was the disaster in the two Georgia Senate elections where he basically said the whole thing was rigged, don’t bother. And the Democrats said okay, fine, whatever. And that’s how they got Raphael Warnock and got a blinking on saying, awesome, awesome. I apologize to of course, I know who he is. But if you He does that. What are Republicans gonna do? They’re gonna say, no, no, no, please show up, they show up to listen to Trump, it becomes this thin argument about who’s gonna listen to Trump and who’s not gonna listen to Trump, as opposed to, we got to turn out because Biden is a threat to Western civilization. So I think Republicans have a really serious problem. And, you know, those of us who have once been Republicans have been warning about this for years, that having refused to get rid of Trump, when they could, is now a continual weight around their neck, and it’s gonna be so until he is finally carted off to jail, or he leaves the political scene in some fashion, but they have never come to terms with him. And it’s gonna be a perpetual problem for them.

Andy Slavitt 

So, if Biden were 60 years old, with the exact record he had, it feels like there’d be it very, very difficult to find the source of attack the weak spot the weakness in a general election. Obviously, you know, people can and will say what they want. And you know, we can I want to animate a couple of the issues, they’ll they’ll point to the point of the border, they’ll talk about crime. Democrats will talk about abortion rights, and both sides will talk about Supreme Court. But but all of that has shifted a little bit. Some of its similar, some of it shifted a little bit. But the fact remains that the President will be 82. And how much of a factor and under what circumstances do you think that could be a factor that will hurt the president it’ll reelect?

Jennifer Rubin 

I think the Democrats in Biden in particular have kind of blown it. The argument they should be making is he’s just a few years older than Trump and Trump has lost all of his marbles. In other words, except that Biden is 82. Of course, he’s gonna be 82. Everyone knows that he’s an older guy. But at least he’s functional, at least he’s got all of his marbles. And rather than focusing on the unfitness, mentally, emotionally, however, of the most likely opponent, they’ve kind of gone into this defensive posture about Biden, so if Trump is the nominee, I think that issue largely goes away, in part because they’re gonna run every crazy thing that Trump has ever said. And he is completely unintelligible these days, people will make fun of a slipped word or misstep, figuratively or actual that Biden mix. But Trump is a lunatic. And if you just play, you know, any section of what he’s saying, it becomes fairly apparent that he’s not all there. Now, if it’s not Donald Trump, I think it becomes a bigger problem. I think there are some voters who will be and should be reasonably concerned about Biden, but I think has to come back for Democrats at least to two fundamental positions. One is a guy who’s out of it does not have a track record like this guy has. We’ve built up win after win after win. And Democrats have complained and Republicans have complained rather than they have gotten nothing that their people haven’t been strong enough. Well, which is it? Is he a smooth operator and a widely negotiator? Or is he completely out of it? So Biden’s record and some sense does help insulate him from this. But ultimately, I think, Empire, you can see Biden already doing this. He, if Trump is not the nominee, he’s got to run against the magnet extremism. And that, I think, is ultimately the argument. You do not want to let these people who fundamentally don’t believe in democracy, who believe in selling Ukraine down the road, who are science deniers to run the country, it’s going to be a disaster. And that’s going to have to carry the day. But you know, listen, yes, everyone would love us. I love these questions like, Would you prefer someone other than imply? Sure I prefer I’d prefer the second coming of JFK, or I’d like Abraham Lincoln to rise from the grave. But like in the world of these are your choices. We were talking about this at the beginning, when you get in the booth? Are you going to take an older bite? Or you can pick Mr. crazy pants, and I think that’s ultimately going to be the decision and Republicans should? I think one of the more effective arguments, frankly, is that their best issue, which is Biden’s age doesn’t work with Trump. It really doesn’t

Andy Slavitt 

Can I give you my own firsthand, play on this to me, and I don’t know that this is going to be necessarily relevant and resonate for voters, but I’ll tell you how I see it. I take an 18 year old Biden over a six year old Biden it They didn’t tell you why they do. Biden is very crisp about that subtlety of age. Joe after he lost, Bo changed. He changed from a guy who was jovial and would tell long stories and was kind of more a little more back Slappy. dealmaker for sure, but also the other really the garrulous guy to a guy that is very, very steady and focused and almost has a kind of quiet purpose and somberness about him that I noticed that I think other people noticed when the last bow who he describes and always described as his best friend, in addition to his son. And so, you know, I think this is a man who, who sort of was a kind of classic politician, Senator backslap er, who came of age and became president at a time when he felt less of the ambition and flame that had been fueled him and more of the purpose and focus of building the country back after Trump. And he’s somebody who has grown up with people who work with their hands, and with their back in factories and families of people who didn’t go to school. And he really believes and feels a sense of connection to that, I think, in his mind’s eye when when he governs, I think he thinks about those people. And I think he thinks about restoring some measure of what he believes the country lost under Trump is a

Jennifer Rubin 

Fascinating observation. And I think it’s hard for him to make it because he doesn’t want to admit that he was less than serious before. And it’s intuitively is, people are going to bristle against the notion that an eight year old is better than a six year old. But I do think and even within the course of his presidency the last few years, I think he’s improved, he’s gotten more focus. He’s gotten sharper in the arguments he’s made. He’s gotten less inclined to kind of indulge the press, you now see him kind of wittily putting down the press for their silly questions and for their credulous reaction to his accomplishments. So I think even within the last few years, he has improved. Will that shift the thinking of most Americans? Probably not probably that and people who have parents and grandparents at that age are gonna think, oh, gosh, do I want dad or grandpa to be present? Well, they may not. But, you know, your dad or grandpa didn’t get to be president didn’t run the country for the last few years. So maybe Biden has something going for him that other people of the similar age don’t. And, you know, I find it just amazing that people really don’t raise the age issue with a Bernie Sanders or with Donald Trump, or with frankly, members of the Supreme Court or getting up there. But somehow with Biden, and that’s just become this reflexive meme on the right, they just refuse to believe that he’s all there. They refuse to believe that he’s not senile, bah, bah, bah. So I think, again, he’s got to, you know, embrace it. He’s got to talk about his experience. He’s got to, I think, use the argument that, hey, for an old guy, I certainly ran circles around the Republicans for last three and a half years. And I think there are ways of dealing with it. Ultimately, ultimately, the test was going to be how he appears, if there are debates, how he appears once the campaign heats up, how vigorous key appears. Listen, the guy who made that mind boggling trip to Ukraine in the middle of a war, flying through the night going on a train for 10 hours, you know, coming back to Poland, that is not a sign of physical fragility, let alone mental fragility. That’s somebody who is pretty robust and has a level of endurance That is impressive. So I think it’s gonna be up to Democrats to make those kinds of arguments. And ultimately, I would rather have a 90 year old Biden than a Trump on and you know, people may not like Kamala Harris, but God forbid, should something happened to President Biden. She would be infinitely better than a DeSantis or a. A Trump, certainly. So I think Democrats should be less defensive, more aggressive and aggressive in pushing Trump’s age and kind of mental fragility, and they should start taunting him. There’s nothing like getting under Trump’s skin to show you know that he’s completely out emotionally imbalanced?

Andy Slavitt 

Well, Jen Rubin, it was great fun having you here and also breaking down. What is a fascinating landscape? That’s, as you said, it’s different than I think we thought it was going to look like a year or two ago. And in some sense, you’d have to say, always imperfect, but better, maybe better, maybe more promising than we feared. Thanks so much for being in the bubble by pleasure.

Andy Slavitt 

Okay, let me tell you what we have coming up. You have asked in your emails to me, and we are answering for a focus on where do we go from here from a health standpoint, from a healthcare standpoint, from a health system standpoint, let me tell you about four guests we have coming up. We have Tom Friedman from the CDC, who used to run the CDC, and has now put together a plan for how to respond to future pandemics in a timely manner. That is going to be awesome. It’s going to be what people want to hear. Zeke Emanuel, who you may know, of, he’s been on the show before. He’s put out his thoughts on the nine trends shaping the future of health and healthcare in this country. And we’re going to talk with Zeke about that. The head of Medicare, […] is going to come and talk about how we’re going to do drug pricing negotiations differently. She is the head of Medicare, she’s leading the drug price negotiations, that’s going to be a live show. And then we’re going to have as soon as she starts, Dr. Mandy Cohen, the new head of the CDC on so over the course of the summer, we’re gonna cover other things as they come up big events, big items, but we’re gonna focus on some of the key healthcare issues that are in your mind. And then I think, as we get to the fall, we’re gonna start talking about politics of the election and policy a bit more. But I think you want in the bubble to keep you posted on the latest and greatest with how we’re responding to the pandemic, how we have responded head where we go next, that we’re going to scratch that itch for you. Okay, it was fun talking to you as always. I really love it. Talk to you next week. Have a great week.

Andy Slavitt 

Thanks for listening to IN THE BUBBLE. We’re a production of Lemonada Media. Martin Macias and Kyle Shiely produced our show, and they’re great. Our mix is by Noah Smith and James Barber, and they’re great, too. Steve Nelson is the vice president of the weekly content, and he’s okay, too. And of course, the ultimate bosses, Jessica Cordova Kramer and Stephanie Wittels Wachs, they executive produced the show, we love them dearly. Our theme was composed by Dan Molad and Oliver Hill, with additional music by Ivan Kuraev. You can find out more about our show on social media at @LemonadaMedia where you’ll also get the transcript of the show. And you can find me at @ASlavitt on Twitter. If you like what you heard today, why don’t you tell your friends to listen as well, and get them to write a review. Thanks so much, talk to you next time.