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In her new essay, “Stand Your Ground: A Black Feminist Reckoning with America’s Gun Problem,” Roxane Gay details her decision to become a gun owner and why she doesn’t think the US has missed its window on meaningful gun control. Sam and Roxane also discuss why you never want to peak in high school, the shift to writing for TV, and how the worst four words in the English language are “hop on a call.”

“Stand Your Ground: A Black Feminist Reckoning with America’s Gun Problem” is available now. It’s the capstone to “Roxane Gay &,” a curated series of ebooks and audiobooks, available exclusively on subscription hub Everand.

Keep up with Samantha Bee @realsambee on Instagram and X. And stay up to date with us @LemonadaMedia on X, Facebook, and Instagram.

For a list of current sponsors and discount codes for this and every other Lemonada show, go to lemonadamedia.com/sponsors.
In her new essay, “Stand Your Ground: A Black Feminist Reckoning with America’s Gun Problem,” Roxane Gay details her decision to become a gun owner and why she doesn’t think the US has missed its window on meaningful gun control. Sam and Roxane also discuss why you never want to peak in high school, the shift to writing for TV, and how the worst four words in the English language are “hop on a call.”

“Stand Your Ground: A Black Feminist Reckoning with America’s Gun Problem” is available now. It’s the capstone to “Roxane Gay &,” a curated series of ebooks and audiobooks, available exclusively on subscription hub Everand.

Keep up with Samantha Bee @realsambee on Instagram and X. And stay up to date with us @LemonadaMedia on X, Facebook, and Instagram.

For a list of current sponsors and discount codes for this and every other Lemonada show, go to lemonadamedia.com/sponsors.

Transcript

SPEAKERS

Samantha Bee, Roxane Gay

Samantha Bee  00:01

I used to feel pretty confident that despite a lot of people in this country not caring about their fellow citizens, the fact that they cared about themselves would at least spur some good action sometimes and then the former president of the United States got shot at with an AR-15. And rather than logically adopt a new position on gun control, he and his followers instead adopted a new fashion accessory, little teeny, tiny sugar packet delicately taped to their ears. And honestly, I feel dumbfounded. I mean not by the new fashion trend, ugly on the inside, ugly on the outside, but by the fact that not even their beloved leader being attacked by their beloved gun could force Republicans to reckon with the merits of basic gun control. I thought that surely the defense of good guy with a gun would fall apart as they watched the Secret Service failed to prevent the shooting, because by now, we already know that they don’t really care if children get shot or high school students or worshipers or shoppers or movie goers or concert goers or anyone, literally, all American lives have been touched. I just can’t believe that watching their Lord and Savior Donald Trump be shot, did not do it for them, because that means that nothing will ever and I think that’s important to mark, to let the realistic possibility, or lack of possibility, for gun control legislation really sink in. So yeah, I have some serious choice words for the assholes, I mean, standing in the way of comprehensive gun reform, for the people who want us to be grateful for an inch of progress every decade. It doesn’t feel like progress when people continue to die of gun violence every single day, especially because I want so much more than the progress we’re trained to be after. It is not enough.

 

Samantha Bee  03:57

This is Choice Words, I’m Samantha Bee. My guest today is Roxane Gay, the prolific author of books like Bad Feminist and hunger and the column Work Friend. She’s the author of the new article, stand your ground, a black feminist reckoning with America’s gun problem, exclusively available on Everend. I think you’ll be surprised by some of the things she says about guns. I absolutely loved our chat, so take a listen and make good choices.

 

Samantha Bee  04:37

Roxane, I am so excited to see you.

 

Roxane Gay  04:40

Likewise.

 

Samantha Bee  04:41

Oh, my God, thank you so much for saying yes to Choice Words, okay, before we talk about your curated work on Everand, which I really, really love, especially the yours, your recent piece, but also Julia tertians is, so good.

 

Roxane Gay  05:01

Isn’t it?

 

Samantha Bee  05:01

It’s so good.

 

Roxane Gay  05:03

You know, when I started the series, I just asked writers or people that I’m interested in, hey, if you could write about anything, what would you write about? And then, like, go ahead and do so. And each person surprised me. I would never have guessed. And so when she decided to write about power lifting. I was like, wow. And then I learned so much. And now, whenever someone asks me about power lifting, if it comes up in even the most tangential way, I’m like, well, did you know?

 

Samantha Bee  05:31

Let me tell you something about power lifting. Her cookbooks are incredible. And I just same here, I feel like I completely learned something, and I definitely learned something about her. And it is really, it’s very special. Okay, the show is all about the show is about choice, whatever that means to you. And of course, we’ll talk about big choices that you’ve made. But, like the word choice really means something different for everyone that I talk to how does that word kind of like sit in your body?

 

Roxane Gay  06:06

Well, especially now in a post row age choice is really about freedom, right about the freedom to live in a body as you choose. Whether we’re talking about trans people and their right to access to medical care that the rest of us have, whether it’s people with uteruses being able to access abortion care, the right to live where you choose, the right to live in this country, regardless of your country of origin, like choice is really just about freedom. And it’s very interesting that we live in a country right now where 46% of the country or so give or take, wants to take away choice. They want to control the choices of the majority. That’s interesting.

 

Samantha Bee  06:51

Yeah, they want their choices to be our choice. They still don’t make choices. They just want their choices […]

 

Roxane Gay  06:57

Are the only choices. Like, you know, for example, Kamala Harris, who’s wonderful, made a choice that’s none of our business to not have children, but she has step children, and yet, like a little Care Bear troll like JD Vance, is out there criticizing her and other people who don’t have children and suggesting that we don’t have a right to vote because we don’t have an investment in the future. I’m like, sir, first of all, I actually know children. I have nieces and nephews, but I don’t even need that to care about the future. It just shows that some people have a world view that begins and ends with themselves.

 

Samantha Bee  07:34

It really is true, like as though people, people without biological children, don’t want to even there’s no state. We don’t plan to live in the future, it’s happening?

 

Roxane Gay  07:45

We don’t care what happens once we leave dessert, whatever.

 

Samantha Bee  07:47

I’m gonna blow it up before I go last step.

 

Roxane Gay  07:53

Just go out with a bang, burn it down. It’s just so sad. Their world view is pathetic. It’s just absolutely pathetic. And I actually pity them, that they are so afraid and they’re so self absorbed, and lacking in imagination, that they don’t want to interact with people who do have imaginations.

 

Samantha Bee  08:15

It is pitiable. It’s almost like a it’s almost a, bless your heart.

 

Roxane Gay  08:19

It’s almost a bliss. If they weren’t so goddamn dangerous.

 

Samantha Bee  08:23

Yes.

 

Roxane Gay  08:23

They would be like, oh, you poor things such. They don’t keep it to themselves, like they try to put it on everyone else. They try to make laws to prevent us from living our lives so.

 

Samantha Bee  08:34

It’s like a real black heart, like that. Heart is just a little nugget of anger.

 

Roxane Gay  08:41

So much anger. And also, what’s interesting is that so many of these people are wealthy and super successful. And then, you know, when I was watching the RNC, and I wonder if you saw this too, they the vision that these people kept talking about. I kept looking outside like, is the sky falling now? Is the danger in the room with us? They really make this place seem like an apocalyptic hellscape, and then you go outside and it’s a beautiful day and everything is fine. And it’s just shocking to me that 1000s of people sat in that auditorium and were nodding their heads like, this country sucks.

 

Samantha Bee  09:18

It sucks here so badly. Some more wrestlers tell us how bad it’s gotten.

 

Roxane Gay  09:27

Wrestler was like, so much cocaine in that room that day. Oh, my God, snowing all over the place.

 

Samantha Bee  09:33

There were so many, you know, kind of like, quote, unquote, medical doctors with little black bags full of emergency supplies.

 

Roxane Gay  09:42

Lots of Narcan.

 

Samantha Bee  09:43

Oh, my goodness. Are you excellent at making decisions for yourself? Are you a person who agonizes over choice?

 

Roxane Gay  09:51

No, I’m, it depends.

 

Samantha Bee  09:54

Really?

 

Roxane Gay  09:54

I’m not historically great at making decisions, but I’m getting better, especially. Now that I’m near 50, there’s just something about being in your 40s that where you’re just like, you know what? Yeah, I’m going to make a decision, I’m going to stand by it, and it’s all going to be fine, so I’m getting better, but it’s challenging sometimes, because I’m a Libra.

 

Samantha Bee  10:15

Oh, you’ve wait, right? Is that, does that mean that you weigh all your.

 

Roxane Gay  10:19

I’m always considering all the options. I’m also a people pleaser, so I’m always thinking, who will be upset by this decision? Who will be happy? Who will love me?

 

Samantha Bee  10:31

You know what? To be a writer who’s so public and a people pleaser is very that’s very difficult, so bad.

 

Roxane Gay  10:41

That’s why I had to leave Twitter. I was like, I can’t leave this feedback in my life. I can’t. I just need to be in my little cone of silence. One of the hardest lessons, or the things that I’ve been having to learn, especially in recent years, is that you can’t please everyone. And quite frankly, my job isn’t to please everyone, it’s just hard that sometimes it seems like I please no one, which is what it is.

 

Samantha Bee  11:07

Yes, I share those feelings with you.

 

Roxane Gay  11:12

I can only especially like doing what you do. Like that there that’s a lot of noise sometimes.

 

Samantha Bee  11:17

It’s just a lot of noise, and it’s great to go, to leave X, to do all of that is actually, it’s essential to, I think it’s essential to the work, especially if you have a tendency to let those things in, you actually have to block them. And that makes, I guess, Instagram less fun than what. No, I actually think it makes it more fun. If you look back at your life, can you think of a choice that feels like a really major one, that maybe was unexpected for you, that you wouldn’t have thought would reverberate through the rest of your life?

 

Roxane Gay  11:54

I think one of the biggest choices I made I was actually very young. I didn’t realize what kind of choice I was making was to go to boarding school, and looking back, I was very naive. I didn’t realize, like, what I was actually asking my parents with that, like, I was just like, I want to go to boarding school because we moved around a lot, and I didn’t want to go to four high schools after having gone to two junior highs in two years. And I didn’t know about the economics of it and things like that. I was just like, I want to go to boarding school so I don’t have to go to so many different schools. And that really just sort of, I think, shifted the trajectory of my life in ways that I would not have been able to anticipate, especially at 13 years old, when I started high school.

 

Samantha Bee  12:42

It must have been scary, was it scary at first?

 

Roxane Gay  12:45

It wasn’t necessarily scary. It was just different, and I needed different at the time, so it was not scary for me. It should have been looking back, I’m like, wow I wasn’t scared at all. I was just like, peace out see you guys in two months.

 

Samantha Bee  13:01

Wow.

 

Roxane Gay  13:02

I can’t believe my parents let me go look. I just because they’re super clingy, not clingy. Oh, my God, we take that back. They’re not clingy, but my parents are very like, parenty. They’re like, right there. They’re very involved to this day. So I’m really shocked that they trusted me and gave me that independence.

 

Samantha Bee  13:24

Trusting your children is that is scary.

 

Roxane Gay  13:30

It seems like, and knowing who I was at the time, that trust is not well placed.

 

Samantha Bee  13:36

I love hearing, you know, stories from people who, at a very young age, hit a just a big swing, and it really hit a knocked it right out of the park, like, just changed everything. And something inside you, something instinctively understood that that was what was needed in your life so smart.

 

Roxane Gay  13:57

I can’t believe I just sort of knew, like, this is what I need. And it wasn’t, you know, there were some challenges. It was a rough experience in some ways, but like, high school is rough for everyone, almost, and if it isn’t, what’s going on with you.

 

Samantha Bee  14:12

Yeah, but do not peak in high school. I never, you don’t you don’t even want to hang out with people who peaked in high school. They’re just like, yeah, they’re just lost to the world.

 

Roxane Gay  14:23

They’re all actually kind of sad. Just like, oh God, so many you can actually tell too. Like, ooh, you were hot in high school, and then all went downhill my goodness.

 

Samantha Bee  14:34

You were so good at baseball when you were 15 and a half, and it’s never looked quite as good. We’ll be right back after this.

 

Samantha Bee  16:13

Okay, can we talk, I want to talk about your article because it just kind of in my own world. It just coincided with the fact that I just shot a huge PSA for every town the other day. So reading your article was it just came at the exact right time. And I want to say that I just, I’m just going to put it, I’m going to put it out into the world. But I love your writing so much. I love.

 

Roxane Gay  18:11

Oh, thank you.

 

Samantha Bee  18:12

Your your warmth. It’s so conversational. It takes this big, sticky, huge issue of guns, actually, and makes it so it’s so personal, it just invites you in as a reader. So okay, I’m gonna say the name of the essay is, stand your ground, a black feminist reckoning with America’s gun problem. And it is part of your collaboration Roxane Gay and which is curated series of ebooks and audio books available on the subscription platform ever. And tell me about your clip first. Tell me your about your collaboration with Everand. So did they come to you?

 

Roxane Gay  18:56

Everand is also known as Scribd. They are they, you know, tech companies, they’re always doing something, and so they decided to, like, spin off their originals into Everand. I had worked with them before, and they approached me asking if I wanted to curate a series of long form essays. And they were willing to pay the writers a fair wage.

 

Samantha Bee  19:21

Which is like unheard of.

 

Roxane Gay  19:24

It’s so unheard of, and I was so grateful for the opportunity, because, you know, pay for writers right now is dismal, and it has just gotten worse and worse, even in the past 10 years, five years, two years. So to have that opportunity and to just let writers do what they want and know that the work would be well edited and well supported, was really great. And the culmination of the series was going to be an essay for me. And so I decided, originally I was going to write about the history of scandal, and I’m still working on that, but it didn’t come together. And then I thought, I think I’m gonna write about gun ownership and gun violence and just the American relationship to guns, which is toxic at best. And, you know, I learned a lot. It was you think, you know, but then you really start to dive into the statistics and realize this country has a lot of guns, and more guns than, like, more guns than people like, yeah, and no other country in the world has this, including the so called, like, violent and dangerous countries, it’s mind blowing to me that there are so many guns in this country, that many guns have been made that people own them, and that a relatively small percentage of the country owns guns, which is to say, and I write this in the essay, that gun people are really into guns, like some people own hundreds of them, and yet they won’t enroll in the Army, enlist in the army so.

 

Samantha Bee  21:02

It’s such a I know it’s from an outside perspective. And I also, I grew up in Canada, where we just don’t have the there are guns, but there’s just not that kind of it’s not a gun culture in the same way. So this PSA that I was doing the other day. I thought about gun storage like just responsible, okay, gun lockers responsible gun storage. I literally don’t think I’ve ever seen that depicted in a movie or a television show, unless it was like the gun locker of a serial killer or a superhero or something in the back cave, just like a wall of weapons that is revealed. People have so many as a hobby. It’s such a weird hobby to me.

 

Roxane Gay  21:52

I know so many people are so irresponsible with those guns. Like, yes, okay, own the guns. But as you say, you know, in film and television. Oftentimes they’re like, okay, let’s not show smoking, let’s not show drinking, but then there’ll be guns, and you’re right. You rarely see like, proper gun storage and proper gun handling, and that’s one of the many reasons I think that so many accidents with guns actually happen in the home, it’s children who are playing with guns who think that they’re toys, and it’s people cleaning their guns without making sure that there’s no bullet in the chamber. And you know, people have this very lackadaisical relationship to something that is a weapon that can absolutely take your own life or the life of the people around you, and I wish we could have a healthier relationship to thinking about that.

 

Samantha Bee  22:48

Well, your your conversation or, like the the article that you’ve written, it really invites people into your experience of gun ownership in such a it’s, actually, I have to say, I think it’s one of the freshest takes on gun ownership I’ve read in.

 

Roxane Gay  23:08

Oh, thank you.

 

Samantha Bee  23:09

In recent memory, I just don’t think that people openly, at least not in my I mean, I don’t, I guess I don’t subscribe to guns and ammo and may, I guess, magazines, you know, but it felt super fresh so, okay, the context, or the the framing for the article is that Aerosmith song Jamie’s got a gun from 1989 and the wave of gun violence that was happening. But do you feel like, I mean little has changed. I think things have intensified. Do you think that we do you think that we’ve actually missed the window for making change happen?

 

Roxane Gay  23:53

No, I don’t in some ways, yes, in some ways, no, I have to say it’s both. I don’t think we’ve missed the window, because I do believe that a lot of Americans are absolutely fed up, and when you look at what legislators, who do care about gun violence are asking for, it’s the bare minimum, yes, like, perhaps we should background check someone who wants to buy a weapon that could end the lives of hundreds of people at once. You know, when you say it out loud and you realize how little we’re actually asking for, it makes me very sad, because I really think we should be asking for way more, like there should be rules. I don’t think just anyone should be able to walk into a store and walk out with a gun, and in Florida, in Texas and in other states, you can actually do that, but the people who are wrapping themselves in the Second Amendment, it’s a bit of a cult. They’re fanatical, they don’t want any restrictions, and it just makes you wonder, what are you afraid of that you don’t want a basic background check to be run for you to own a gun? Why do you not want people to be competent and to be licensed to hide a weapon on their person as they’re out and about in the world with other people?

 

Samantha Bee  25:10

Like, do you really need gun violence to touch your life in a negative way before you can change your mind? Like, why do people have to have a personal experience of something in order to imagine.

 

Roxane Gay  25:24

Even then it doesn’t necessarily work, right? Like there are plenty of people who have been touched by and harmed by gun violence, and they’re still not willing to do anything, you know, after Sandy Hook, that just broke something in me, because I genuinely thought, oh my god, it’s little white kids. Now we’re gonna do something. And that’s not only that. It wasn’t just high schoolers, not that okay, but it was babies like six years old, seven years old, the teachers who died and then Uvalde, and nothing has changed. And in Uvalde, the cops who had guns were so scared of the AR 15 that this country refuses to ban that they wouldn’t go in for an hour. They sat out there listening to people being murdered, come on. It’s embarrassing.

 

Samantha Bee  26:13

It often, and I think another reason why I really love your piece is because I, oh, I always have this internal conversation, whenever you know some huge explosive event occurs, mass shooting that we all hear about, I think, well, where are the responsible gun owners in this conversation, like, why aren’t there, because I do think guns are not my hobby. It’s not something that I love, but I can see that it is a beloved hobby for lots of people, and I do think the majority of regular gun owners are responsible and have proper training. They do store their stuff away. They have they love to hunt. I have no objection to responsible gun ownership, like whatsoever. Where are those voices in the wake of a mass shooting, and why does everybody still give money to the NRA? Reasonable people who can see that it’s a cult.

 

Roxane Gay  27:14

I don’t know, I think that’s a really good question, and I do believe that whatever the answer is, I think it will be very telling. And what’s interesting about the NRA is that a fraction of gun owners are part of the NRA. The NRA is not like it has a very powerful membership, but it is not the majority of gun owners. And in the essay, I have the exact statistic that I’m not able to remember right now, but it’s just not that many gun owners. And so why does the NRA and the gun lobby, why do these people have such a disproportionate hold on our legislators, and it’s just so horrible, and why aren’t responsible gun owners like louder about yes, these are very small, basic things that we’re doing that should absolutely be the norm. Instead, we have politicians who pose with children holding long rifles and AR 15s and other semi automatic weapons as Christmas cards like these. People are proud of it, I can’t even imagine putting that kind of a weapon in a child’s hand. I just can’t I can’t imagine showing a child that weapon. I never saw a gun in my life, except for on television, until I was, like, 19 years old. And that’s the way it should be.

 

Samantha Bee  28:38

And I did appreciate also that you do talk about the number of people who are injured by guns but not killed, because we really focus on statistics and the number of people killed by the weapons, but people are grievously injured. They’re grievously harmed in shootings all the time, and we rarely give a voice to those people. I mean people who are paralyzed, horribly injured, traumatized. There’s a very wide spectrum in the aftermath of any given shooting that we never.

 

Roxane Gay  29:15

And some of the aftermath seems worse than dying, and I’m not even talking about disability, which is not worse than dying by any stretch of the imagination, but just like the horrific wounds, where, you know, you lose part of your intestines, or you have these wounds that get infected, like, because medical practitioners have done so much work, like you can actually survive quite a lot of things. Now we’re seeing this in people, in soldiers who come back from war, who are able to survive things that during the Vietnam War, for example, were absolutely fatal. And so we have a lot of walking wounded and civilians who have to deal with the repercussion of gun violence, and there’s very little attention paid to that, because it’s not interesting to people. We don’t want to know about those repercussions. It’s much easier to pretend that either you live or you die, and if you live, everything is okay, but for people who are severely injured, who get traumatic brain injuries, who lose limbs, who lose organs. Like, no, the trauma continues and continues and continues. And like, maybe we should highlight that a little more without being exploitative, to remind people that this is a really big problem and that we have to do something about it, because, if not, now, when?

 

Samantha Bee  29:26

Yeah, you I think that listeners who haven’t read the article yet might be surprised to know that you yourself, you own multiple guns. And it I do, and I really would advise people to read the whole thing, top to bottom. It is great, but and you talk about how feminism and gun ownership are centered in empowerment. They seem at odds with each other. Guns are used against women, women of color in particular. So tell me why it’s not at all crazy for a feminist to own a gun. Can you talk about your path to gun ownership? It’s really interesting.

 

Roxane Gay  31:19

Yeah, so I have a my brother, my middle brother, who was a huge gun owner. He loves or loved guns. He was just a gun nut, and also a responsible gun owner. And for many years, he tried to get my other brother and my parents and I to get on board. And we were always like, where did you even develop this interest? Because it wasn’t around us, and so, you know, I’ve been shooting with him before, and I was still like, yeah, it’s not really for me but then, you know, as a writer, I get a lot of death threats, and I started getting threats that were very specific, and that were not just some random person in his Cheeto encrusted basement, like people that seemed like they might actually do something.

 

Samantha Bee  32:09

Right, not too far away.

 

Roxane Gay  32:11

Not too far away, and I just thought, maybe I should not just sit around like waiting for someone to come kill me. Maybe I should figure out, like, what are the best ways I can defend myself? And so, of course, I have an elaborate security system and blah, but I thought, let me just get a gun and learn how to use it properly. And my wife, of course, joined me in that. And so now I have a gun, and it’s not even something I think about or frankly, you I don’t use it, I go shooting every once in a while to make sure that I can use it still. And remember, like, okay, aim at the target. But you know, one of the things that we hear anytime a woman does something like, there’s a lot of rhetoric around empowerment, and it’s like, no, it’s this is not empowering, but I do think that it can make you feel safer, it can make you feel like powerful. It can make you feel like some of your fate is in your own hands. There are always things we cannot control, but I would like to believe it might be a deterrent at the same time, and this is the main thing I grapple with, like when you buy a gun, when you decide to own one part of you is saying, I’m willing to use this against another person, but in that moment, would I, and I don’t know, and I hope the answer is actually no, I hope that maybe I can just sort of like, point it.

 

Samantha Bee  33:32

Right.

 

Roxane Gay  33:33

Just, are we done here?

 

Samantha Bee  33:34

Yeah, let it be just scary enough, like, I’m serious.

 

Roxane Gay  33:39

Yeah, this is real. So perhaps you should go, you know, one of the other issues that I really grapple with is like, how can you be a feminist and own a gun? Because I do think in some ways that gun ownership is antithetical to feminism and to this idea that we should find a different way of thinking about power, we should have a different relationship to power. But I don’t know that I’m able to reconcile it, either in the essay or in life. But I also think it’s not as contradictory to feminism as you might believe either.

 

Samantha Bee  34:11

It definitely feels like it’s still a conversation that you’re just continuously having with your that you’re still.

 

Roxane Gay  34:16

It is, it is. I don’t have easy answers or conclusions, but I do know, you know, we talk about the Second Amendment all the time, but when people talk about the Second Amendment, they’re talking about it for white people when black people avail themselves of their Second Amendment rights, like Philando Castile, the young airman who was killed recently, and so many other black people who legally owned guns and died because of it, Marissa Alexander, who’s alive, but spent five years in prison and house arrest because of standing her ground while George Zimmerman is out free. You know, that’s also interesting to me, and black gun ownership and black women owning guns in particular are on the rise, and that’s interesting, too. Like we should look at that. Why are black people arming themselves?

 

Samantha Bee  35:07

Right, I mean, well, yeah. I mean, you do? You write a lot about about stand your ground in the article, and because when black people stand their ground, it can often be like life altering or fatal.

 

Roxane Gay  35:22

Absolutely.

 

Samantha Bee  35:23

Feels like we should mark the timing of the article coming out, because just as we’re taping this, we’re grappling again with a white officer shooting a black woman in her own home. Sonia Massey, it is really hard to believe that change is possible when it just keeps happening again.

 

Roxane Gay  35:45

It really is and again, and what kills me is it seems like the police are a vocational program for cowards, because these men all have mostly but women are involved too. People in the police department seem really afraid of people without guns, and that is always shocking to me. Like, what exactly are you afraid of with a woman holding a pot of boiling water, like you can move out of the way, like she’s not going to do anything with it. She was just taking it off the oven, off the stove, and she’s dead now, and she called the police because she was afraid, and really it was the police she should have been afraid of.

 

Samantha Bee  36:30

Right, just okay, well, does a presidential assassination attempt even shock you? Does it after living with, after living with this topic for so long? Are you like, no, this makes.

 

Roxane Gay  36:41

It doesn’t shock me. I’m actually, what shocks me is how long beach, like, it’s been, like, 40 years, I think, since the last attempt on a president, which, thank goodness, but you know, this young guy was angry and disaffected, and when we make weapons easily available. People who are angry and disaffected can do quite a lot of harm.

 

Samantha Bee  37:07

And when they have unfettered access to just they do, lonely just they do.

 

Roxane Gay  37:12

And Trump was very, very lucky, but Corey comparator was not so lucky. He leaves behind a wife and children and a community, and there were two other people who were severely injured, and meanwhile, Donald Trump gets a little shrapnel on his ear and then wears a fake bandage for a week.

 

Samantha Bee  37:33

Is a wrapped maxi pad on the side.

 

Roxane Gay  37:35

You noticed that? I mean, when I saw that, I was like, oh, menstrual okay.

 

Samantha Bee  37:40

He fell asleep on a pile of menstrual pads, or.

 

Roxane Gay  37:44

It had, you know, he was.

 

Samantha Bee  37:47

It was sweaty, and it stuck to him.

 

Roxane Gay  37:50

Well, the best part was when all of those lemmings started also wearing like, you, I don’t even know how like parody and like I don’t understand how comedy writers are coping right now, because you can’t even, like, make it up. Like, what does SNL do with this? Like, it’s the truth.

 

Samantha Bee  38:09

I keep a lot of those photos in my camera roll, just for my own purposes, just for my own pleasure.

 

Roxane Gay  38:14

Because you see all of these people who are like, she’s a dei hire wearing maxi pads on their paper for no fucking reason.

 

Samantha Bee  38:22

Maxwell’s on the ears and a cowboy hat, and I’m like, what are is this? You can’t be real. If you wrote this for television, it would be too far fetched to believe.

 

Roxane Gay  38:34

I mean, a studio notes would be like, this is a little too on the nose, but it actually happened, it did.

 

Samantha Bee  38:42

Okay, so Gavin Newsom has tried to legislate against guns by mimicking how Texas restricts abortion. Do you think that’s like, effective or creative enough a way to do things?

 

Roxane Gay  38:58

Gavin, oh, I like him, actually, I do. I think he’s interesting and a little too polished, because he wants to be president so badly.

 

Samantha Bee  39:10

So badly, like, it comes off and then waves.

 

Roxane Gay  39:13

Yeah, it’s like, he, you know, he was the kid sitting in the front row of the classroom when he was growing up, and just like, always raising his hand, and I’m like, bro. I’ll never fight back.

 

Samantha Bee  39:23

There’s just a part of me that goes, you were married to Kimberly Guilfoyle.

 

Roxane Gay  39:27

And I can’t listen. That’s why he can’t run for president.

 

Samantha Bee  39:30

I know there’s.

 

Roxane Gay  39:32

That’s why he can’t run.

 

Samantha Bee  39:33

It’s that photo your dirt. Is that photo of him, like and the two of them on that shag rug by the fireplace. I’m like, there’s something so icky here, and I don’t.

 

Roxane Gay  39:45

But like, how does she go from him, I don’t know, and then become a completely different person, and she has warped herself. Like, do what you want with your body, truly, yeah, but likely, she looks terrifying, and she’s always screaming, because I think she. Is perhaps high on an altering substance alongside her fiance, who also seems to have a white upper lip at all times, my goodness, like, wow.

 

Samantha Bee  40:12

How do you go much?

 

Roxane Gay  40:13

How do you go from suave Gavin to douche […]

 

Samantha Bee  40:18

I don’t understand people’s transitions. I really don’t transition.

 

Roxane Gay  40:24

Wow.

 

Samantha Bee  40:24

My god.

 

Roxane Gay  40:26

She’s gotten so much gender affirming surgery while being a transphobe, that’s very interesting as well.

 

Samantha Bee  40:32

Very interesting. There’s a lot of maybe, you know what? Maybe, maybe there’s no surgery involved at all. Maybe it’s just eating yams.

 

Roxane Gay  40:40

I heard that, no.

 

Samantha Bee  40:45

Yeah, we’ll be right back after this.

 

Samantha Bee  42:29

Okay, so you recently stopped doing your New York Times column, Work Friend.

 

Roxane Gay  43:41

Yes.

 

Samantha Bee  43:43

I loved work. I loved you on Work Friend, I loved you on Work Friend, that’s like such a terrible way to say it, but again, hearing your voice very clear and true for me. Are you as good at taking career advice as you are at giving it?

 

Roxane Gay  44:00

No, of course not. I wish, well, no, that’s not true. It depends on the advice and who it’s coming from and whether or not I respect them, if I respect someone, absolutely, I’m very good at taking career advice. I’m also really good, surprisingly, at taking edits. Because I recognize that editors, when you are lucky and have a good one, they’re actually trying to protect you from yourself and your worst. And they can also see things that we’re often too close to the work to see, so I appreciate that. And with career advice, I’ve you know, if I trust you, then yes, I trust that you have my best interest at heart and that maybe I’m too short sighted, but if I don’t trust you, then you can keep that, I’m good.

 

Samantha Bee  44:46

Thank you so much for the feedback.

 

Roxane Gay  44:48

We’re good.

 

Samantha Bee  44:49

We’re gonna move through that quickly.

 

Roxane Gay  44:51

Especially when I get advice from people who don’t know what they’re talking about.

 

Samantha Bee  44:56

There’s no other way to say it, who have no example. It’s just like, no, never ever gotten paid to write? You know, this is correct.

 

Roxane Gay  45:02

Like this is a pass. This is no, yeah. But thank you for sharing. People love to give advice, myself included. So I understand where the instinct comes from.

 

Samantha Bee  45:11

They Is there a work front? Did you ever give advice on work in Work Friend that you remember was, is there anyone that stands out to you? Anyone who wrote to you?

 

Roxane Gay  45:22

No, I actually all of it stood out to me because one of the most startling things I fell into work friend in an unexpected way, and it lasted much longer than I would have thought. I loved it, I hope I get to do it again in the future. But so many people have such terrible jobs, man.

 

Roxane Gay  45:38

And the jobs are terrible not because of the work they’re doing, but because of the people they’re working with and or for. That’s the most memorable thing I took away that like we shouldn’t have to live this way. So many people cannot afford to leave their jobs because they need health insurance, because they’re supporting their families, contributing to the household, contributing to themselves, whatever, and so they’re stuck in these really untenable situations with abusive bosses and undermining coworkers and so many smelly co workers. You would be shocked at the number of letters you get about like the dude next to me stinks. What do I […]

 

Samantha Bee  45:38

Oh boy.

 

Samantha Bee  46:17

I am not going to be shocked by that at all. I once worked with someone who clipped their toenails at their desk. No, put their feet on their desk and clipped their toenails. So you know what I’m saying, we’ve all.

 

Roxane Gay  46:30

Does that, it looks at their toes at work, and it’s just like, let’s get out of trim right now.

 

Samantha Bee  46:36

I gotta clean these up. Everybody will be so happy.

 

Roxane Gay  46:40

I think everyone wants to hear that disgust a little yeah, my wife has a misophonia and can’t hear certain sounds, and one of those sounds is toenail clipping. And so I always just wait till she leaves and do it like in my bedroom, where one should be clipping their toes.

 

Samantha Bee  46:56

It’s a private act. It’s a private act unless you can’t, you know, if you’re elderly, and sometimes you can’t reach your toes.

 

Roxane Gay  47:05

Right, it’s there are always circumstances, but there’s never, ever a circumstance where doing it at your desk is okay. Literally, your desk is on an island, and you’re the only person on the island.

 

Samantha Bee  47:16

It’s your planet.

 

Roxane Gay  47:18

And it’s later.

 

Samantha Bee  47:20

You’re the only employee on your planet.

 

Roxane Gay  47:24

Just say, no.

 

Samantha Bee  47:26

You’re writing for TV. Are you good at taking studio notes? Do you love receiving that’s a different.

 

Roxane Gay  47:33

Studio notes are tough, they’re tough. I need to get better about this. I will get better about this because it’s just, it’s new to me. The TV world is new to me. I can take notes from fellow people in the room. I can take notes from a director. I can take notes from the show runner. It’s hard for me to take notes from an executive. It’s hard. And that’s my own that’s my own limitation, and I’m working on it. But in general, I do take the notes. I do because I recognize that this isn’t going to go anywhere until I apply those notes. It’s not up to me. This isn’t like book writing and book writing in general, you’re the boss. You have control, and TV writing like you’re just a cog in the at least where I’m at right now, I’m just a cog in the machine, and it’s actually been really good for my ego. Just, let’s get some humility going on here. You are a psycho. Nobody cares.

 

Samantha Bee  48:32

It’s a different way of taking notes, like it’s a not, it is not so intimate, often you feel that the executive, let’s the unnamed executive has not, perhaps even read the thing that they’re giving, you know.

 

Roxane Gay  48:45

That’s something that challenges me. Like some of the notes I’ve gotten are like, can you take out the major plot point that was the reason we bought the project in the first place?

 

Samantha Bee  49:01

Hey, it’s the name of the project.

 

Roxane Gay  49:09

Right, like, can you take out the kidnapping in this book about I don’t think so, I just don’t.

 

Samantha Bee  49:17

Can we hop on a call into the next 10 minutes?

 

Roxane Gay  49:23

Hop on a call, like the four worst words in the English language. First of all, like Hop, hop. I’m not going to hop on anything. Hop on anything, but if you want to get on the phone, sure let’s do it.

 

Samantha Bee  49:34

I recall once receiving some studio notes for some projects that I had written. And the note was, it was just like, you know, so much is happening in this a lot of like, stuff is happening. Is there a way that you could take all the stuff and, like, get rid of it? And then put it all in a room. Like, remember how Friends was mostly in, like, just like either one room or a different room, one of two rooms, mostly the coffee shop or the apart, just like that. And it was a story about, like, a celebrity chef who traveled the world, like, it really was just a very active, vibrant. Anyway, do less? Hop on a call. Let’s talk about taking everything else.

 

Roxane Gay  50:32

Get into this. Yes, like, please tell me how to eviscerate like, I had a project once. Oh, the strike was so bad.

 

Samantha Bee  50:41

So bad.

 

Roxane Gay  50:42

It was about a teenage girl. And then afterwards, they were like, yeah, we don’t want to make a show about a teenager.

 

Samantha Bee  50:50

Oh my god, what?

 

Roxane Gay  50:53

Yeah, and so I just was like, okay, well, okay, I will just take back those four years of work thank you. But I actually can tolerate it in many ways, because the thing about TV is that the check goes through whether they make it or not.

 

Samantha Bee  51:13

Yes.

 

Roxane Gay  51:14

In some ways, like maybe not as big a check as you were hoping, but at least in TV, they do pay you for your work. Most of the time.

 

Samantha Bee  51:23

When it’s paying you, it pays better than most jobs.

 

Roxane Gay  51:27

Yeah, it does, and the WGA, it’s such a great union. I love being part of the WGA, like they’re just really good at what they do. And so for whatever the complaints are, I have to say, I love writing for television. I think it’s so much fun. It’s goes so much faster than books, and working with other people has been, at first, it was hard, but now I’m just like, yes, let’s just sit in this room and vibe. Let us talk about this one thing we did in high school. Let’s get there.

 

Samantha Bee  51:58

I like that part too. Just breaking stories. It’s just like a fun, collaborative, like, bunch of like minded people just kind of with snacks.

 

Roxane Gay  52:11

Oh my god, this is.

 

Samantha Bee  52:12

High quality.

 

Roxane Gay  52:13

So good, and then every day they take your lunch order. It’s like, so like, you’re gonna go and and bring me back a lunch, and I get to choose it. Oh, stop. I mean, it’s just I find, as a writer, like, that’s lap of luxury shit. I gotta do […]

 

Samantha Bee  52:31

That is so fancy to me, next level, very fancy, when it happens, it is delicious.

 

Roxane Gay  52:37

When it’s good, it’s very good.

 

Samantha Bee  52:39

And the health insurance is nice.

 

Roxane Gay  52:41

Yes, it is, just like, how am I gonna get the rest of my hours this year? I gotta figure it out.

 

Samantha Bee  52:48

I feel like that you know, going just kind of going back to talking about Work Friend for a second. I’m like, You know what that talking about, even mentioning insurance makes me remember that I do feel like people are really stuck in jobs, because we have to be risk averse. Here we have health care in Canada. I mean, I don’t want to brag, but that is I grew up, I lived there for 33 years and had like, it’s not a work, it’s not a daily concern, it’s not a daily burden or backpack that you carry, and it just affords you a tiny bit more risk in your life. You can take a few chances. You can leave a job that’s unhappy it opens up a world in such an unexpected way, and just in just inviting you to try something that you love for less than.

 

Roxane Gay  53:44

I remember when I was young. I had there were many years during my 20s when I did not have health insurance, and like, thank God for youth looking back like, thank God that I didn’t get in a car accident, and I was very healthy so I didn’t actually need insurance or to go to the dentist. What our teeth anyway? But you then you get older, and you’re like, this old bag of meat is probably going to need some maintenance. Or, if you have children, kids break things and have illnesses, and so it really ties people to very unfortunate work situations, and.

 

Samantha Bee  54:27

It does.

 

Roxane Gay  54:28

Man, this country will not be great until we have universal health care.

 

Samantha Bee  54:33

I am so with you on that. I am 100% I am in lockstep with you.

 

Roxane Gay  54:40

And I can’t believe we have to convince people.

 

Samantha Bee  54:42

I know.

 

Roxane Gay  54:43

That healthcare should be free, and you should have it and it should be unlimited access. My parents are on Medicare because they’re over 65 now, and like, everyone should be on Medicare, like this should be the standard. You shouldn’t have to wait until you’re sort of like, in the last third of your life to be able to get health care. It’s maddening anyway.

 

Samantha Bee  55:06

Yeah, you shouldn’t have to make the decision like, you shouldn’t have to wake up in the morning and your shoulder doesn’t work, and then you think, should I see someone or should I just, like.

 

Roxane Gay  55:16

Should I walk this off or I, should I go back and face this abusive boss who keeps trying to have sex with me against the desk.

 

Samantha Bee  55:22

How many leaves is it okay for me to take before I drop dead from a leave?

 

Roxane Gay  55:29

The amount of consulting Dr Google gets from people who have inadequate health insurance? We deserve better. Doctor is not actually a doctor.

 

Samantha Bee  55:38

Well, we deserve better in a lot of ways. And I thank you so much for writing this article, and I hope everybody subscribes and reads it and loves it the way that I did. Oh, it was so fun to talk to you.

 

Roxane Gay  55:51

Likewise.

 

Samantha Bee  55:58

That was Roxane Gay, and I had no choice but to look up one thing. Roxane mentioned that the US is number one when it comes to countries having more guns than people. So I had to check which lucky country was next. Well, okay, the US has 120 guns per 100 people, and the next in line is Yemen, which has about 52 guns per 100 people. Oh, God, okay. Well, thanks for joining us, I’m Samantha Bee and see you next week for some more Choice Words.

 

CREDITS  56:47

Thank you for listening to Choice Words, which was created by and is hosted by me. The show is produced by […], with editing and additional producing by Josh Richmond. We are distributed by Lemonada Media, and you can find me @realsambee on Instagram and X, follow Choice Words wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon music with your Prime membership.