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Jake Gyllenhaal. Kanye West. Scooter Braun. Listen back as Hoja, Kiki, and Mohanad chronicle the many men who’ve needed to apologize to Taylor Swift over the years. They go through all her toxic exes, the decade-long drama between Taylor and Kanye, and her recent battle with Big Machine Records that led to her re-recording her albums. Plus, they investigate where ‘the scarf’ is today, and Hoja shows off her pipes with her rendition of “Teardrops On My Guitar (Hoja’s Version).”

Please note, I’m Sorry contains mature themes and may not be appropriate for all listeners.

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Transcript

SPEAKERS

Hoja Lopez, Mohanad Elshieky, Kiki Monique

Kiki Monique  00:08

I’m Kiki Monique. And this is I’M SORRY, a podcast about apologies. And this week, I have way more scars from animals that I love than I normally do. I mean, if people didn’t know that I loved animals, they probably think I was in some combative relationship.

Mohanad Elshieky 

I know, I know having animals is truly something else. And this is Mohanad Elshieky and this week, I’ve been sick all week, which has been great for me because I had the week off. And, you know, this is how I like to spend my time off. Just lay on the couch be between the state of being awake and asleep the whole time.

Hoja Lopez

Okay, well, and I’m Hoja Lopez. And this week, I went to a dog park and a Corgi peed on my foot. And I was extremely grateful because it was extremely cute. It was a puppy Corgi. And it I thought it was just, you know, pausing close to me for in order for me to pet it. But truly, it had a business to take care of. And so it peed on my shoe. And I threw those shoes away and it was time anyways.

Mohanad Elshieky 

That’s good news for old Corgis in Chicago. If you need a foot to pee on, I have one for you.

Hoja Lopez 

So this week’s episode is all about Taylor Swift. And I’m so excited because I’ve had ups and downs in my relationship with Taylor Swift. But I mean, like, what do you guys know about Taylor? Like, when did she first come into your lives? Like, tell me a little bit about your relationship to Taylor Swift?

Kiki Monique 

I feel like most of my relationship for the early years would literally be me listening to a song and being like, oh, this is good. Who is this? Oh, Taylor Swift, really? I mean, that went on for years. Every time I just didn’t know a song, but I really liked it. It was always Taylor Swift.

Mohanad Elshieky  02:03

Yeah. Well, my relationship with Taylor Swift goes way back. I remember meeting her in 1989. We were at a hospital in Pennsylvania, and I was also being born. What a time.

Hoja Lopez 

Are you saying that you were born in the same hospital as Taylor Swift and not where we previously thought you were born?

Mohanad Elshieky

We were switched at birth. Actually, her parents are my parents. And it’s just, you know, like, I mean, I’m happy for her, whatever. I mean, her parents could have had a comedian instead. But, you know, sometimes that’s how it works. But for real, though, I mean, I knew about Taylor Swift. I wasn’t like, you know, listen to all of her songs and all of her albums and that kind of stuff. But yeah, I feel like lately, she’s been, you know, I feel like more present in my life.

Hoja Lopez

Great. So I’ll tell you, I had sort of like a frown upon Taylor Swift relationship when she first came out, especially with like teardrops on my guitar, like, I would sing her songs because I’d heard them so often as a reception at the medical spa that I worked, and I was just like, Okay, I know these songs. But in general, like my view of Taylor Swift was like, I don’t really like her, like I was sort of like, didn’t really enjoy Taylor Swift that much. And then I’m gonna admit this, but in some ways, I came around to Taylor Swift because Lena Dunham when girls came out, I really loved girls. And it was like, a to me like a cool, interesting new show when it first came out on HBO. And Lena Dunham was like, Oh, I love Taylor Swift. And it gave the little like, hateful hipster asshole inside of me at that time, who was probably I don’t know, maybe 25 or something like that permission to like, look at Taylor Swift in a new light, kind of. So Lena Dunham kind of. I don’t know. There was something cool at that time about Lena Dunham, like living in New York and […] parents and having her own show with Judd Apatow, on HBO. And so I was like, Oh, I guess if Lena Dunham likes Taylor Swift there must be something actually cool or interesting about Taylor Swift?

Kiki Monique  04:17

No, I mean, that makes a lot of sense. I feel like Taylor personify this like all American girl, she is a Barbie doll. She’s everything that we are like, a lot of people are like, against like, no, like, we have too much of that. And I do think at the time, Lena was this edgy person and yeah, for her to be like, I love Taylor. I will say that, that did speak volumes.

Hoja Lopez 

Yeah. So it gave me kind of a new perspective then. And then I started kind of like listening to her songs like I guess more seriously in the sense of like, well, is this actually good or not? Versus just kind of like, lightly listening and generally disapproving of her kind of being like another tall blonde hot singer lady, you know, like, I just didn’t see anything particularly interesting about her. But you know, and that’s again to my detriment because I feel like, at that time again, I just had no idea that I was hating on women for no reason, you guys, I really had to come out of that.

Kiki Monique

I mean, I kind of always do and I would hate on a woman for no reason.

Hoja Lopez

Well, I didn’t realize that it was like systemic or that like, it was a part of like, you know, like media sling and some women hate kind of thing. I just thought that I was like, free of all systemic forces. And I was just like, just a complete and total angel in my own right. And that if I disliked anyone, it was because they merited being disliked, you know. And so I think at this time, I sort of started realizing, like, oh, I am influenced by things and by media and by people probably around 25, really, which again, I’d like to ask for forgiveness in that regard. You know, I will say I’m sorry about all of that, because certainly was a big slut shamer when I was growing up in high school, I thought it was like some kind of moral high ground that I had that I hadn’t had sex. And really, it was just a virgin who couldn’t drive.

Kiki Monique  06:07

Like I did have this idea of who Swifties were, like, all Taylor Swift Fans, in my mind, fit a very specific mold. And so what I feel like we just found out that our producer Alex was a huge Taylor Swift Fan that actually shocked me because I just look at Alex is this like, really edgy, cool chick. And to know she’s a huge Swifty actually just like blows my mind even more and makes me want to be like, okay, maybe I need to start going back and listening to all these albums, because maybe I’ve missed something completely.

Mohanad Elshieky 

Yeah. Well, as someone who’s, who’s very active on Twitter, and has, you know, verified, I would like to say, from this platform that I think Swifties are great, they’re amazing people. They’re the best trained, please, please do not come after me. I am a good person. I think Taylor Swift is the best artist to ever live.

Hoja Lopez 

So I’m going to start with a little bit of information about Taylor. So Taylor Allison Swift to her professional, legal, and womanly name, her full-grown lady name. So it turns out that she’s born on this, like Christmas tree farm, which I realize is a thing but, yeah, she’s just basically born in a Christmas Wonderland. And so, her mother was a professional opera singer. And so there’s some kind of music in her family. And by the age of 10, Taylor is like singing at local events and fairs and contests. And then by the age of 12, she is beginning to write her own songs. So her first ever song that she wrote is called Lucky You. And she writes it when she’s 12 years old. And this is my favorite when a computer repair man comes to her house and teaches her how to play three chords on the guitar. So first impression of that interaction. I don’t like it. But clearly, he gave her something wonderful. It reminded me of like, you know, Queens Gambit with the janitor in the basement who like teaches there’s always like some magical janitor or computer repair man.

Mohanad Elshieky  08:17

One thing a lot of people don’t know that computer man. It was Steve Jobs. He grew up to be Steve Jobs, the founder of Apple who’s dead now, but, you know.

Kiki Monique 

I feel like there’s like a certain age where just stranger danger went away. Like I grew up with stranger danger and like if the cable guy or someone came up, I ran I hid in my room. I locked the door.

Hoja Lopez 

There’s a strange man in my house. No, you can’t teach me how to play guitar you old perv.

Mohanad Elshieky

You missed out Kiki. You could have been the next Taylor Swift.

Hoja Lopez 

Oh my god. So okay, so Taylor after learning, you know, these three chords on the guitar is now Taylor Swift. But no. So in order to pursue her music career, she ends up moving to like Nashville. And again, her family, I guess, like noted her dedication to the music and ended up moving to Hendersonville, Tennessee, so close to Nashville, so she could visit Nashville, which I feel is like the story of a lot of like, prodigious children, actors or musicians where it’s like, if I tell you that there’s no way in fucking hell, I would have been able to convince my parents to move across country for my career at 13 years old. There is not a damn fucking chance that, that would have ever happened.

Kiki Monique 

I couldn’t even convince my parents to like get on a plane for vacation. It was car rides to Myrtle Beach only. That’s all I got.

Hoja Lopez

Oh my god. But yeah, Taylor Swift parents are like sure we’ll move to a completely different city just in order for you to pursue a career so she ends up performing at like the famed bluebird cafe in Nashville, and she kind of performs all around until she ends up getting a contract with Scott Borchetta’s Big Machine Record so at this time Big Machine is kind of a smaller label, but she kind of like, you know, hooks this fish and starts, you know creating her own music, which is awesome. At this time she’s 14 years old, basically. So that’s kind of when she gets her big break and starts working on her self-titled album, which is her very first one. And these are all tunes that she wrote when she was in high school like literally her first album, his song she wrote as a freshman in high school. So she ends up going on tour before her album comes out fully with Faith Hill and Tim McGraw, which actually ends up being the highest grossing country tour of all time, that Faith Hall and Tim McGraw one so she’s sort of like eaten the public eye and while her album hasn’t come out, she’s doing gigs in front of hundreds and hundreds of 1000s of people who I’m sure end up buying her records afterwards.

Kiki Monique  10:59

And country music fans are just like loyal. I mean, yeah, they they’re probably still the only ones who will go and actually buy a CD like at the Walmart, at the Target. Like they would buy the physical version.

Hoja Lopez

Which is insane. Let’s be honest, that’s crazy town. Okay, anyway, so on this first album, she’s got the song, a single called Tim McGraw, which is the first that she’s on tour with, and ends up peaking number five on album charts. So at this point, she’s really starting to gauge get some steam kind of it. I just wanted to bring in one of the lyrics that I liked about this Tim McGraw song, because it genuinely to me feels like what I thought about country music then so it’s put those Georgia stars to shame that night, I said, that’s a lie. Just a boy in a Chevy truck that had a tendency of getting stuck on back roads at night. What? That is what I think all like country songs are about, there’s a truck, there’s a dirt road. There’s the word Georgia and stars at it, and there’s a word boy in it. And so at this point, I was like, this is not good. You know, this is not I have no appreciation for the country. The country life but in any case, for this album, also Teardrops On My Guitar her on it, picture to burn should have said no. I mean, it’s really she is blowing the hell up.

Kiki Monique  12:25

Yeah, none of those songs I don’t think I’ve ever heard I will say.

Hoja Lopez 

You’ve probably heard teardrops on my guitar.

Kiki Monique 

I can’t say I have.

Hoja Lopez 

Do I need to Singapore should have it. Well, maybe, yeah?

Mohanad Elshieky 

Yeah, please do.

Hoja Lopez 

[SINGS TEARDROPS IN MY GUITAR]

Mohanad Elshieky 

If you just added a melody to the title would be like, oh, okay.

Hoja Lopez 

That’s really truly all I know.

Mohanad Elshieky 

You did a great job.

Hoja Lopez 

You know, when you go into something thinking you are excellent.

Kiki Monique 

I love your confidence. I admire your confidence.

Hoja Lopez 

Okay, well, we’ll listen to it after this. This is where we arrived to me in 2008, to the first man that I think that needs to apologize to Taylor Swift. So, first man that needs to apologize to Taylor Swift is Joe Jonas. So they dated from July of 2008 to October of 2008. So it was a brief romance. And I’ll be honest, Taylor’s past is littered with brief romances, but also whose isn’t? So they barely dated. But their breakup was like extremely dramatic. So it all kind of went down. But then when we really got it confirmed as Taylor went on Ellen, which I don’t know if you guys remember this appearance in November of 2008, basically saying that Joe Jonas had broken up with her over the phone in 25 seconds when she was 18 years old. So I mean, 25 second break up that to me, deems for an apology.

Kiki Monique  14:11

Well, how old were they at the time?

Hoja Lopez 

They were 18. And he was like, maybe 19 or something like that. Okay, we see Kiki. She’s like, oh, I think it’s sufficiently`.. […]

Kiki Monique 

[…] second breakup when you’re 18 feels about right.

Hoja Lopez 

It feels good.

Mohanad Elshieky 

I’ll say this. I have a new, you know, another way of you Joe Jonas now because there’s a Netflix special that just came out called the Jonas Brothers Roast. Yes. And I watched it because I do not care what is it? I’ll watch it if it’s supposedly comedy, and Jesus Christ. It’s like I imagine the way they pitch that was like someone came to Netflix was like, would you imagine if comedy was not funny? We have something for you right here. We have somebody one of the world’s […] so Joe Jonas need to apologize for so many things need to apologize to me. Need to apologize if Taylor Swift needs to apologize to everyone, really? So yeah, you get no love for me, Joe Jonas.

Kiki Monique 

I’ve never like I will watch like you, any comedy. Any roast especially I love. Never have I watched a Netflix trailer for anything like that and been like, absolutely not, like removed.

Hoja Lopez 

Yeah, yeah, I was gonna watch it. And then somebody told me it was really bad. And I was like, well, I could have watched it if it was okay. But no, they were like, you will absolutely hate it. Thank you for saving me that bit of time. But all that to say is Taylor goes on Ellen and blasts Joe. So there’s a little bit of revenge there in that way. And then this is a part that I really think he needs to apologize for, which is he drops a song with the Jonas Brothers called Much Better. And you know, Swifty fans are very much like, oh, this is a diss track, because he references her song teardrops on my guitar and his, and he says, Now I’m done with superstars and all the tears on her guitar. I’m not bitter. But now I see. Everything I’d ever need is the girl in front of me because she’s much better. That’s what Joe Jonas says about Taylor Swift in his song, you guys.

Mohanad Elshieky  16:29

I truly cannot think of something more pathetic than just be like. Just like running to your two brothers. Stand with me, because this woman is talking shit about me with Ellen. We’re gonna say stuff about her. Okay? And then being like, Okay, brother.

Kiki Monique 

I just keep thinking about like, if I was 18 and had a platform and like, had some of the breakups I did around the time, it would have been a hot mess. I wouldn’t have stopped.

Hoja Lopez 

You would have used your platform to absolutely tear apart every person who ever wronged you, which let’s be honest, Taylor. She does is it a beautiful, lyrical, melodic way. She’s just, you know, she’s got it.

Hoja Lopez 

so this is where we reach the most, to me insane and stupid parts of American pop culture, which is 2009 VMAs and Kanye West. I know. So, you know, Taylor gets a ton of awards for her next album that comes out called fearless. And I mean, this woman is winning like Video of the Year, Female Video of the Year for love story. She is like, MTV Video Music Awards, Best Female video. And then at the same time, you know, this, Beyonce is also on there. And I mean, let’s be honest, like Beyonce is guns blazing at this moment to me, like, Beyonce is like creating a […] at this point. But I mean, basically, you know, West comes on stage and, you know, interrupts her as we kind of all know that story. But with these many years apart from that event, like, can you guys remember how you reacted to the Kanye, like, interrupting Swift on stage like, and now that it’s been this many years. I mean, how do you feel about like that event in particular?

Mohanad Elshieky  18:45

I mean, I remember watching it when it came out. I saw it like so many times. And I thought it was, you know, it was fucked up. Because he was just like, coming out like this. Basically, teenager who just like, really, for the first time ever had a moment, and just got ruined by someone who’s like, you know, one of the most famous artists on the planet. And she said herself that she was a fan of him. So you know, he’s Kanye West, especially at the time. But I’ll say between then and now, Kanye has made it his mission to make that thing that he did to Taylor not the worst thing that he’s ever done, so good for him.

Kiki Monique

Yeah, I feel like that Taylor Swift moment for me was like the first crack in the armor. I was like, okay, Kanye, like this isn’t, your acting up a bit like what’s going on? And it just then was just a pre-emptive like, this is who he actually is. He’d be there been hiding it or whatever. That’s who he is. And I will say what I love that happened from all of that was how the women that I already loved just I made, made me love them more like finding out that Pink went up to Kanye right when he came back to his seat and basically cussed him out and called him, you know, piece of shit like all of this. I mean, I already loved Pink. Now, she’s like forever, like you are […] And then hearing the story, you know, Beyonce was really upset and you could see it in her face, you know, they immediately pan to her, you know, and you could see she was upset and finding out that like, you know, backstage, you know, Taylor’s crying, and Beyonce is crying. And Beyonce was gonna, like, leave because I think that she was like, upset that people would think she had something to do with it, right? Because she’s the biggest star, you know, and finding out that she was, you know, they kind of let her know, look, you have a big award coming, we weren’t going to tell you please stick around and use this as an opportunity to, like, let’s bring this art complete. And you can bring Taylor back on stage and let her have her moment. And she did that. So I think I just the women that I already loved. Just made me love more. And the men that I already was questionable about. Just got more questionable over time.

Mohanad Elshieky 

Yeah, cuz I also remember one thing that Taylor Swift said in the documentary, Miss Americana on Netflix, where she said that, you know, like, people start booing when, you know, Connie did his whole thing. And she thought that they were booing her. And, you know, as someone whose whole career me is based on, you know, not being booed on stage, and people liking you. I was like, that would have devastated me if I thought all these people were booing me at that time on live TV.

Mohanad Elshieky

Yeah, I mean, I once did. What are the like the snap? Like, what was the comedy thing we did when your mom is so fat, like those jokes. I like when I was 19. Like, went on stage to like, do one of those. And like, it was a comedy concert just to prepare for it. Like I went to like the like Barnes and Nobles or whatever. And like was reading snap like jokes or like, really prepare the one I was gonna like, do, I went up and literally the first one off, bombed and like, no one booed me, but it wasn’t like they didn’t boo me it was kind of like a boo. And like I can’t.

Mohanad Elshieky  22:15

The silence is worse than the boo.

Hoja Lopez 

Yeah, I can’t imagine and she’s a young person at this point. Yeah, I guess in my mind, I had this feeling of like, I did think Beyonce should have won. Like I agreed with Kanye, but obviously didn’t agree with how we kind of went about it. But yeah, there was certainly some kind of painful reminder of what’s to come with Kanye West.

Kiki Monique

But the thing is Beyonce, Beyonce won, like every award.

Hoja Lopez 

You got to give one to another girl.

Kiki Monique 

Taylor won like one award, like, you know, yeah, like she won Best Female video, Beyonce, one best video of everybody. You know, like.

Hoja Lopez 

I totally get that. No. And I think for me, it was just this feeling again, of what I mentioned to how about, how I felt about Taylor Swift before as I just didn’t really regard her as like a great artist or somebody we should have been paying that much attention to. And I think I sort of like bit into that side of things. And again, this sort of kicks off basically like a decade’s long, strange relationship between Taylor and Kanye. And you know, much more to come on that front. So then we come to December of 2009, to February of 2010. And this is right before speak now comes out. And then she’s dating John Mayer. So John Mayer is my next man who needs to apologize to Taylor Swift. Okay, so just as a side note, John Mayer thoughts, tell me

Mohanad Elshieky 

I’d say like his sneakers game other than that nothing.

Hoja Lopez 

Yeah, gotcha. So we have some ambivalence about John Mayer. I feel like John Mayer, in some ways is, in some ways, please hold off just for a moment. John Mayer is also a singer-songwriter who writes very often about things that happen in his real life. And he dates a shit ton of women, right, and other famous people. So to me, there’s this sort of like mirror image and a great example to compare John Mayer to Taylor Swift because they’re linked together through collaborating for this particular song called half of my heart. But then as things kind of sour between them, people tend to very harshly criticize Taylor. This is when the narrative of Taylor dates a lot of people’s starts to take shape is through this kind of very public John Mayer.

Kiki Monique  24:41

But she’s like 19. And he’s like, 31 at this time or something.

Hoja Lopez 

Exactly. So she’s 19 and he’s 32 at this point, and we really have no confirmation because neither of them have fully confirmed that they ever dated. But for me, it’s sort of a confirmation comes after so she puts a release of the song Dear John, which, you know, Swift Fans are like this is allegedly about John Mayer. And one of the lyrics of it is Dear John, I see it all now. It was wrong. Don’t you think 19 is too young to be played by your Dark Twisted games when I loved you. Aha, I feel like a detective you guys. This is so ridiculous.

Mohanad Elshieky 

Because I remember he was so mad about it.

Hoja Lopez 

Which nobody could really say with certainty that it was about him. But then he went on record with Rolling Stone magazine and basically, like said something about, I can’t remember what did he say in that one? Do you know it was like it made me feel terrible?

Mohanad Elshieky 

Yeah, he felt humiliated. He was just like, this is you know, he made it sound like this is the worst thing to ever happened.

Kiki Monique 

Yeah, he said it was like a kind of cheap songwriting.

Mohanad Elshieky 

Oh, okay. Yeah, you know, who doesn’t know that cheap songwriting. When you write about your own personal life?

Kiki Monique  26:07

That’s what I’m saying. You would never say that about Adele. Like, you know, if you’re if you’re in her circle into her life, you know, a song that can be written about you and you should feel blessed. That’s correct.

Hoja Lopez 

Honored that you ever made a dent in the life of that one that like someone that talented. But yeah, so he just he sort of confirms it in posterity for me when he said, oh, he said something about he’d never got an email never got a phone call that it was going to happen. So he was kind of caught off guard by the song. But it’s also like, bro, you’re 32 or 33 at this point, and she’s still a 19- or 20-year-old, so she’d have to call you for sure.

Mohanad Elshieky 

Imagine if every time I wrote a joke about something or someone, I send him an email and be like, hey, you, you might be the subject of this joke.

Kiki Monique 

Right? Like the number of emails we’d have to send just from this show alone.

Mohanad Elshieky 

Yeah, we might drop your name. I don’t know. You’re a public figure. Deal with it.

Hoja Lopez 

Yeah. So then, after you know, this whole John Mayer, things comes out. And this is again, They date from 2009 to February of 2010. In 2010, at the end of the year, Jake Gyllenhaal comes into the picture. And they date from October of 2010 to January of 2011. So this is a very short-lived three-month romance that now turns into a 10-minute short film with a 10-minute version of all too well, which has just come out. And this last, you know, December, November of this year.

Kiki Monique 

Feels like Jake Gyllenhaal was BD before BDE was a thing.

Hoja Lopez 

Oh my god, I remember seeing that picture of like her hanging off of the shoulder on I don’t know if it was Us Weekly, or People Magazine, but like the tabloids were crazy about this. And you know, according to like a few of the articles that I was reading, he sort of like called it quits with her because he was uncomfortable about the amount of press that he and Taylor were receiving. So he said he kind of wasn’t feeling it anymore. He could feel the age difference. And then at the time, Taylor is, you know, just turning 21 while Jake was 29. So this is sort of spiraled into a crazy conspiracy thing, which you guys know anything about, like the scarf and Maggie Gyllenhaal and Diane Warwick, is this all coming up for you guys in the last couple of weeks?

Kiki Monique  28:36

I mean, yeah, this is like I didn’t know about the scarf in the 2000. You know, whatever. 11 era. I know about it now in detail.

Hoja Lopez

Okay, tell me about the scarf and what you know about it, because I think I have the same information, but I’d love to know.

Kiki Monique

Well, okay, I will go backwards. It came up Maggie Gyllenhaal was on watch what happens alive recently. And it was after the rerelease of this song. And one of the audience members like asked, you know, like, is Taylor S000000carf at your house? And she was like, I don’t know what you’re talking about. And I think Andy had to explain, like, this is a lyric in the song that, like she said that, you know, I left my scarf at your sister’s house. And she’s like, Oh my God, for the last like 10 years people have been asking me about a scarf. I had no idea what they were talking. Like, I mean, I don’t know if I believe that. I guess I would believe that but it seems like after 10 years, you start asking that people kept asking you about a he would do some research but hilarious because like the scarf, I do want to know like, is it sitting in Maggie’s like coat closet?

Hoja Lopez

Oh my god. Yeah, it’s very strange. She does say and you’ve still got it in your drawer even now. So I think the scarf has left Maggie Gyllenhaal house and gone back to Jake Jones halls house. This is a very coveted scarf. But I think the thing is so funny because this is read at this point. So it gets released in 2012 and is my first time that I listened to a Taylor Swift album and was like, oh, I love this. I love this album. I mean, this is she described it as her that she looks back on this as her one and only true breakup album. So all the other ones have not actually been break up albums, this has been like, for her I think one of her most personal ones. So she said she was really sad when Red came out. This is an interview she did with Seth Meyers this year, just like in November, and she’s much more able to go through that in particular. So all that to say is I don’t necessarily think Jake Gyllenhaal needs to apologize for having broken up with Taylor Swift. But it just is worth a mention because he does need to return her scarf and that to me is..

Mohanad Elshieky  30:56

I know, why Does he still have it? Like what’s happening here? Does he still wear it?

Kiki Monique 

Well, according to the like the lyrics right? It’s he keeps it because it reminds him of her because even though he never said I love you, I think he really did and this scarf is proof so, like no, I’m still not I don’t think he I want him to keep it. If they’re that love was really It did feel like this was Taylor’s first love. That’s what when we hear about this, it feels like this is the person that she for years thought was like the one that got away. And so she probably wants him to keep that scarf.

Hoja Lopez 

Oh yeah, she probably does. She holds out a candle you know, a little candle for old Jake Gyllenhaal, which she’s got the lyrics in her new song that are like, I get older but your lovers stay the same age and now Jake Gyllenhaal is dating a 24–25-year-old. Oh, so I think it’s that thing where I’m like, okay, Jake Gyllenhaal this is the time to grow up and maybe date some people your own age we’re starting to get nasty here, we’re starting to get the George Clooney, Leonardo DiCaprio vibe. But you know, I’m going to try to judge these old guys who dating young women a little bit less, that’s my gonna be my resolution for 2022, because I’m harsh on them.

Hoja Lopez  32:36

To kind of move through, you know her next pieces. She, you know, puts out 1989 and 2014. And this is you know, it’s your biggest selling album. I feel like 1989 is where she like cements her sort of status as literally one of the biggest stars that’s ever existed on planet Earth. I mean, Shake It Off is on that, Blank Space, which is probably my favorite Taylor sort of song of all time. And we see her now kind of making fun again of this character that people are thrusting upon her as being the sort of serial dater, so she’s to me this is when she starts taking herself a little bit less seriously. And I think when I fully and truly fall in love with Taylor Swift.

Kiki Monique 

I think this is when I start paying attention.

Hoja Lopez 

Yeah, you’re listening to shake it off. And you’re a little office going like who is this? But yeah, they’re certainly this feeling for Taylor of like, she is totally and utterly mainstream. And at this time, she’s like, starts dating Harry Styles before that she’s, you know, dating Conor Kennedy. So she is, again dating, but none of these guys are really you know, it for her. So we kind of all get back to 2016. And this is when Kanye West’s album is coming out. So this is kind of when Kanye sweeps back into Taylor’s life. And I don’t know if you guys remember that kind of infamous phone call between Kanye West and Taylor Swift where he basically states that Taylor gave him permission to use those lyrics in particular. And then obviously on the other side, Taylor saying that she never approved those lines. So, I mean, when this was coming out, I was like, this is the juiciest thing that’s ever happened to me. I know that it’s not happening to me, but it feels like it is. What was your impression of when that phone call came out?

Mohanad Elshieky  34:33

It truly does not take a detective to know that. Taylor Swift did not approve this. Like why would anyone approve being called a bitch in a song? Especially like Taylor Swift? Like that’s not her brand? This is not her like music. And also, there’s I think, maybe I’m remembering this wrong. There was a lyric about like him like he should have sex with Taylor Swift or like she owes him sex or something. It’s also kind of creepy. Like, you are way older than her and you’re married, a married man who just like talking about someone who was, you know, a child at a time, like 19 or 18. And saying that she owes you sex because you made her famous. I don’t think he made her famous as just also, she was winning an award over Beyonce. So I think she was doing well.

Kiki Monique

She was, and that’s the thing. Like, there was so much that went, you know, back and forth about this lyric, right? And her saying, you know, I didn’t think it was that bad, because, you know, when he read the lyric, you know what he said didn’t sound bad at the time. But the misogynistic tone was just like, it wasn’t the word bitch. He was talking about, like the fact that like, you’re saying, you made me famous, like, you know, she, you know, she’s saying, it’s like, not the bitch thing. Like I eat like I told you, I told her it was the bitch. And she had no problem with it. We find out later, she didn’t know that the word bitch was going to be used. But that wasn’t the misogyny she was referring to, the misogyny she’s referring to is like you say that, you know, you made her famous. And that’s why she didn’t release it on her Twitter, which you also admitted was like, she has a Taylor army. And like you wanted her army to back it up.

Hoja Lopez  36:23

Yeah, he didn’t want to come off as if he was like, saying those things negatively about Taylor. So he gives her kind of like a half in like a half-informed response and tapes it.

Kiki Monique 

Yeah. And I feel like this is when I started kind of not that I had fully gone on board with Taylor. But you know, I was definitely leaning more towards the Kanye Kim side of it. Because now I can reflect and say like, all of these things, but in that moment, I was definitely like, oh, team, Kanye and Kim, because yeah, he went on stage and embarrass her. But in this moment, he saying he got her approval. And now this tape is showing, she did give the approval. So she’s a liar.

Hoja Lopez 

Oh, when that came out, I was incensed against Taylor Swift. I was like, Taylor, you lied. You told us all the permission, and now maneuvered this man and basically lied.

Mohanad Elshieky 

And it wasn’t, it wasn’t just listening to the tape, because like, you know, everyone in the media was just framing it as like, this is what you should think she did lie. So for four years, everyone’s just like, okay, yeah, she did lie. I mean, everyone agrees on that. And then, I mean, wasn’t it like four years later that came out that she did not like, because I think there was like, another recording that was released. Where she specifically said that she doesn’t approve this.

Kiki Monique

Yeah. Well, it didn’t say that. She didn’t approve it. What the recording because one of the things that, you know, she had said, I think even in that moment was like, this was a highly edited video, and it doesn’t show the full conversation. But at that point, we were all like, whatever. Liar liar pants on fire, we heard you say you had no problem with it. Because as she does say those words like, Oh, that’s not that bad. That’s fine. When someone releases, the full conversation that isn’t chopped up, what we hear is Kanye saying, you know, can you release this on your Twitter? I know this line. It’s gonna be like, really harsh. But like, you know, my wife, I ran it by her. And at first, she was not cool with it. But now it’s her favorite line. And he  kept like, building up to two minutes or building it up. And finally, she’s just like, what is this line? And he says, like, you owe me sex, whatever the line is, you owe me sex. And I made Taylor Swift, famous, like, he doesn’t say bitch, and but he does say that line and she goes, Okay, well, like, that’s doesn’t seem that bad. I thought you were gonna call me like a dumb bitch. Like they think she even said that. And so when the full tape came out, then it was like, wait, she wasn’t lying. She didn’t get she didn’t hear the whole verse. So she couldn’t have approved it. She didn’t know what she were saying. The problem was the release of this full tape comes out in March of 2020. When we’re just trying to fight to stay alive, right? Like, we’re at a point. It’s like March 23rd. I think it comes out or March 20, that it comes out. And it was funny, because this incident, this conversation came up just this past weekend, where we, my friend and I were talking about Taylor Swift. And she was just like, Well, yeah, but you know, I will say I give Kanye props for, you know, at least calling her out when she was a liar. And I said, but then she called him out for being a liar. And she was like, What do you mean? And I was like, did I miss? I feel like I remember that. And then I went back and I was like, yeah, nobody saw this because in March of 2020, that was the last thing we were concerned about.

Mohanad Elshieky 

And I remember what was funny is Kim Kardashian like wrote this whole thread about it, and she said, cannot believe they were trying to ignite this old like conflict, specially at a time when everyone is fighting in their lives through a pandemic. And it’s just like, […] she’s like, yeah, poor people are fighting in a pandemic to stay alive and people are like losing their job. That’s definitely this is what you want to talk about. I’m just like, okay, Kim Kardashian.

Kiki Monique  40:22

I’m about to go back to her IG feed on from March to June of 2020. And see what she was posting. You all see some scams or something.

Mohanad Elshieky 

Yeah, I love to bring up like poor people fighting for their lives and stuff like that, when it suits me. Didn’t she like literally have a birthday party? Or like a like a private island during the pandemic? So just like shut up.

Hoja Lopez 

Yeah. And I think one of the things that comes out of all of it is Kardashian basically refers to Swift as a snake on social media and then that becomes literally the catalyst for reputation, which is her next album. And every single one of like the social media adverts, everything that comes out is just like, Snake related from Taylor Swift. So it’s almost like taking the narrative from what Kardashian called her and turned it into, and also what a great name for her next album reputation. It’s like a really cool, kind of like, fuck, everybody’s talking shit about me right now. I’m gonna put this album out. And it turns out to have my favorite actually. Okay, so my favorite song is Blank Space. But my second favorite song or Taylor Swift of all time, is I did something bad. It is a very good song. I will send it to you both.

Kiki Monique 

Oh, you don’t want to sing the little part.

Hoja Lopez

Okay. Oh my god, stop calling me out. Okay. But it’s such a good song. And it talks about her relationship with Calvin Harris. And she just is like a fully formed bad bitch. And this song and reputation is such a great album too. But just to kind of go back to sort of the next part of Taylor Swift’s life which is dealing with this whole she’s changing from her previous Big Machine Record label and moving to a completely new large label that’s allowing her to own her masters which kind of brings us to current contemporary modern Taylor. Do you guys know anything about what was going on with Scott Borchetta and Scooter Braun who is also by the way, Ariana Grande and Justin Bieber’s and Kanye West manager. So yeah, probably the biggest manager out there.

Kiki Monique  42:33

Absolutely. Yeah, and I feel like that because I feel like that started also happening during lockdown and I just remember fighting online between like scooter and Taylor and then you know, Justin posting pictures with Scooter and Ariana and then being like, alright, now you don’t support Taylor and just fighting I didn’t I knew what it was about. I knew it had something to do with her rights to her music but I didn’t know the specifics until later.

Mohanad Elshieky

Yeah, same I didn’t know much about it and honestly like what I kept hearing owning  masters I thought it bed owning the people in charge of stuff, that’s what I thought it was. The industry moguls or whatever. I was like, oh, it’s just the original version of the song or whatever.

Kiki Monique 

What’s interesting that you know, Master Bedroom kind of lost its right to the master bedroom during lockdown, but masters of like records did it but..

Mohanad Elshieky 

The next lock down.

Hoja Lopez

That’s so ridiculous. Yeah, so really, we’ll call it like June of 2019 is when I first started hearing about it because she basically put out a statement, expressing like an immense amount of dismay that the catalog of music from her first six albums up to reputation had been sold by big machine to a company owned by Scooter Braun. And one of the reasons that it got sold ended up being that big machine wanted Taylor to sign. A giant NDA basically wanted her to sign a contract stating that she was going to earn each one of her albums back. So for every new album that she put out, they were going to give her ownership of one of her previous albums, meaning that she had to produce another six albums for Big Machine in order to fully own the masters of her previous, but she couldn’t control whether or not after signing that contract, the whole label got sold to somebody else with her as kind of like a selling ticket or a credit for buying that label. So she’s like, she basically found herself being forced to walk away from Big Machine and all of her old discography when she went to her new label, which created this huge rift between her and Borchetta her old like the old owner of Big Machine. So as soon as she actually walked away from it, that’s when Scooter Braun kind of came in, who noticeably because he managed Kanye and Kim Kardashian. She felt like he was instrumental in creating the PR that negatively affected her. And so they had a big beef even before, he even purchased any of her stuff. So she didn’t want to be associated with him. She felt like he had been bullying her and was a part of that. And then when Scott Borchetta had actually sold Big Machine to Scooter without giving her a really an option, aside from that ironclad NDA, she felt like she had no choice.

Kiki Monique 

It feels like full on bullying. I mean, you know, we know, obviously, it was what, like a four-year period, or how long was that period that Taylor was, you know, cancelled, right? Like, after, when people thought she was lying about Kanye until, you know, 2020 when we learned she’s not, we obviously know, you know, the Kardashians, they’re just another government. They’re like, a second government that controls things. And if you know, Kim is doesn’t like someone, I can imagine that if she’s friends with, with I’m sure that she’s friends with Scooter because he managed Kanye. And he’s like, you know, I just don’t like that bitch. Like, I can imagine he’s like, I’m never gonna […] got it? Like, I look, I would do that. My friends, don’t […] somebody, and I own something they want. I would straight up do that.

Hoja Lopez  46:40

I think it’s really interesting when it happens on such a high level with these people, because you think, well, they have all the money in the world. But they do they have all the money in the world so they can play this game that we would play on a bullshit level at this very crazy high stakes level.

Kiki Monique 

They also have the biggest egos in the world. That’s why they are the stars, right? So of course, this is like fun for them.

Mohanad Elshieky 

Yeah, exactly. Because it doesn’t it’s not about money anymore. You know, it’s about power. That’s so that, you know, just fucking with people.

Kiki Monique 

You’re so right though. Because like power, like wanting all of this power, it’s like more than money more than everything. And having to say I’m sorry, strips all amount of power from that person, which is why it’s the hardest thing to get from someone, because they just they’ve lost at that point. And they just don’t like that.

Mohanad Elshieky 

Exactly. So Scooter, if you’re listening to this, you’re invited to come on this podcast and apologize. This is your time to redeem yourself, maybe come on this podcast. And

Hoja Lopez

yeah, so kind of like moving into, again, why Taylor Swift is free releasing. So masters and assets, you can own a master. But essentially, she’s covering her own song, which is now under a new copyright law. So essentially, if you download or listen to Taylor’s version on Spotify, on any of these other platforms, you’re essentially offering Taylor an opportunity to make money off of her own recordings. So I definitely encourage people to listen to Taylor’s version.

Kiki Monique  48:14

And it’s like, such a like, again, ego got in these men’s way because for such an ironclad NDA that they seem to be offering her the fact that in her contract, they said after a year from the ending of your contract, you could choose to re-record your albums. Like the fact that that was a clause in her original contract is kind of weird, but also just the fact that they were like, well, she’ll never act on it. Who would re-record every single album? Have you met Taylor Swift? I mean, she doesn’t seem like someone who backs down. So given the opportunity to like re-record. I mean, why wouldn’t she? Why wouldn’t she tried to bankrupt that old you know, album of music and now everything that has parentheses Taylor goes in her pocket. Of course, she has time, what else does she have to do?

Mohanad Elshieky

And she knows he have enough you know, loyal fans and a big base that she literally can just make so much more money doing that and the […] with nonstop.

Kiki Monique 

I mean, didn’t she beat Don McLean American Pie? Like she broke a Spotify record or something?

Mohanad Elshieky

I mean, good for her. And Taylor, too, if you want to come on this podcast, and, you know, you’re more than welcome. Honestly. I mean, I don’t know what we’re going to talk, talk about, you know, talk whatever. Exactly. Whatever. You know, we’ll make the subject about you.

Hoja Lopez 

Well, I’m just happy that we’ve reached a momentous moment for her of the re-release that she can own the things because I know that like Kelly Clarkson is going through something similar. There’s been so many female artists and male artists, obviously throughout history, and I just hope that we get more and more equitable deals for artists because it seems like when people are vulnerable, you know, people like Scooter Braun, or record labels will take advantage and she is finally in a position where she’s kind of powerful enough to take back. Yeah, you know, what’s hers and that’s really cool. Oh, Swifties, hope we didn’t say anything to incur your ire.

Mohanad Elshieky  50:24

Yeah. Thank you for listening to I’m Sorry, Halo’s version

Mohanad Elshieky 

Cool. Now it’s time for my favorite segment, which is sorry, not sorry. And so we’ll start with Hoja, And see what’s been happening this week.

Hoja Lopez 

Yeah, I would like to honestly demand an apology from my best friend, Stacy, because she has a new boyfriend. And they came to visit me and you know, things are changing a baby. And, you know, just getting adjusted to this new sort of like, this new exchange in relationship dynamics, because I’m used to her being so obsessed with me that I need to that I need to be like, Hey, Stacey, needs a little bit of space. But now that bitches found her own full life, and she’s living it and as happy as I am for her. I am adjusting. She is in, you know, probably a two rooms over. So I hope she’s hearing this because I mean it. They came to visit me here in Chicago for like two or three days. And the whole time, I was just so happy for her. And then also felt truly like a third wheel for the first time. Really ever. He’s a very sweet man. So again, I’m glad she found somebody that she like, loves and hit it off with and, you know, I think she’s been looking for that. But truly, when a new boyfriend or new girlfriend comes in, you are in for just a whirlwind of like, Oh, my God, things are not the same as they were before.

Kiki Monique  52:00

Is the correct term, third wheel or fifth wheel?

Hoja Lopez 

I guess for me, well..

Kiki Monique 

I mean, I understand like we link tend to say third wheel, because we’re usually the third in this scenario. But I feel like it’s the adding of the fifth wheel that is extra.

Mohanad Elshieky 

Well, maybe it’s a bike.

Hoja Lopez 

It’s a bike, but then it just becomes a tricycle.

Kiki Monique 

And that’s totally usable.

Hoja Lopez 

Your truly poking holes in this age-old metaphor.

Kiki Monique 

I’m just trying to get your mind off because I know how hard it is. New partner swoops in.

Mohanad Elshieky 

Wow. Hoja, just being completely destroyed this week. Her logic makes no sense. Her friendships are falling apart. I mean, I don’t know what you have left honestly.

Hoja Lopez 

I gotta really, you know, like, look at the ground as I’m walking because I’m probably gonna fall steeply. And, you know, hurt my hip here in the next 48 hours. That’s usually because it comes in threes, you know, three wheels.

Kiki Monique 

Well, yeah.

Mohanad Elshieky 

It’s 16. Who cares?

Hoja Lopez 

Basically demanding an apology from my best friend for being happy. And she does. And I deserve it. I need it. I want it. Give it to me.

Mohanad Elshieky

Kiki, do you have any friends that you need an apology for finding happiness?

Kiki Monique 

No, I’m actually you know, I’m gonna apologize to an entire state. My favorite state, my favorite city, New York City. You know, I’ve only been in LA for like, a year. And I’m going to make a statement, and I might lose some friends. But oh my god, it’s official. LA’s food scene is better than New York. And I said it. And I don’t it. And I did not think it’s something I would have ever said before. But LA’s restaurants are killing it out here. And I’m just glad to be on this wave.

Mohanad Elshieky

I’ll say that I agree as someone who currently lives in New York City and has been to LA multiple times. Especially like when I have like Mexican food in LA. And then I have it New York, New York just offers you the concept of Mexican food. They’re like, this is the idea. You know, you get the gist of it. But LA is more like okay, yes, this is Mexican food. Okay, now I can taste it. It’s there. Everything is there. Like I’m gonna say like, even like the pizza in New York. I’m just like, it’s fine. Like, I can have it somewhere else. I don’t care. I mean, I’m here to make enemies, you know, like a true New Yorker. Well, this week, I had the week off, so I asked some friends for like recommendations for stuff to watch. And I had a friend recommend that I watched this guy, a YouTuber who made a like, built his own squid game. Okay, and you know, whoever wins at the end gets $450,000 But it’s the same exact game. Oh my god, okay, just no one dies. And I would love an apology for wasting my time watching that. It’s truly just you watch it I’m like, oh wow, this is a spoiled kid with so much money who just wanted to see people play squid game and then just give some of his money while also making way more money from the views that they got cuz it literally got 100 million views in like four days which is insane, and the thing is just like I do not like to gatekeep TV shows, but I must disclose to start gatekeeping like squid game because it’s just like, I feel like a lot of people have just like watched it and now it became their whole like persona. And they use that example for everything. Like literally the government would do anything like wow, this is like squid game like shut the fuck up. Like did you just hear about capitalism yesterday?

Hoja Lopez  56:10

You need more metaphors for the painful things that are happening in the world.

Mohanad Elshieky

Exactly. Now everything is squid game.

Hoja Lopez 

I am a little I think I feel saturated with it. It doesn’t feel it’s like when you know when a joke is gone like sour or like a topic of something you’re like, okay, we’re this doesn’t feel fresh anymore.

Mohanad Elshieky 

It’s insane. Yeah, like even like people talk about like the people who work for like, like in Amazon warehouse is that like oh my god this is like squid game like no, this is like Amazon warehouse on its own.

Kiki Monique 

Yeah, Amazon warehouse has its own squid game. Trying to figure out where to pee while they’re on like these routes like, you know, they have their own problems.

Hoja Lopez 

I like idea of somebody a podcast in South Korea that’s like, oh, squid game. You’ve heard of it. It’s like the Amazon warehouse.

Kiki Monique 

One of my favorite things to watch on tick tock are the series of commercials that are airing in other countries about how poor and like foodless we are. Poor Americans look how much they struggle. And it’s not a lie. They’re like, you know, they’re only making you know, $7 an hour and they can’t even afford to eat and it’s like, not a lie.

Mohanad Elshieky

Yeah, that’s British people love, love talking about their free health care. Like literally they just fucking love it. Like every time something happens in the US they’re like at least four people from the UK just being like oh my god, I can’t believe you guys do this, here in the UK. We have free health care while also you still have to live in the UK. So that’s its own punishment.

Hoja Lopez 

Everywhere sucks.

Mohanad Elshieky 

That is the conclusion.

CREDITS

I’M SORRY is a Lemonada Media Original. The show is produced by Alex McOwen, supervising producer is Kryssy Pease. Our executive producers are Stephanie Wittels Wachs and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Our mix is by Kat and theme music was composed by Xander Singh. If you like this show, please rate and review. And please don’t cancel us. You can find out more about our show at @LemonadaMedia on all social platforms, or follow us on Instagram at @imsorry_podcast. We’ll be back next week and until then be nice, play fair and always say I’m sorry. Thanks for listening!