How Can I Use My Grief to Inspire Me to Help Others? With Zak Williams

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After Zak Williams lost his father, the beloved actor Robin Williams, to suicide, he found that advocating for mental health care and helping others access wellness also charted a path to his own healing. Zak joins Claire to talk about his grieving journey, the mental wellness company he co-founded called PYM and the Lemonada Media podcast Call For Help which examines the new nationwide 988 suicide & crisis lifeline.

Resources from the show

  • Listen to the Call For Help podcast from Lemonada and Sozosei Foundation
  • Explore Zak’s mental wellness company PYM

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Zak Williams, Claire Bidwell-Smith

Zak Williams  00:00

When it comes to starting the process of healing, there’s no stage that is the right stage. Right you can heal at any phase. So however far along I was in suffering and experiencing the trauma and dysregulation, like it just was time for me to say, Hey, I deserve better. I love myself enough to say hey, there’s processes I want to start taking a more positive outlook towards taking care of myself and you know, starting to find ways in which I can heal my body and my mind and ultimately my soul.

Claire Bidwell-Smith  00:40

I am Claire Bidwell-Smith Welcome to New Day. healing from trauma, especially from the loss of a loved one takes time and self-compassion. Everyone’s path may look different. But a through line is that healing is a lifelong project. Before Zak Williams lost his father, the beloved actor Robin Williams, who died by suicide in 2014, had already begun healing work related to other life traumas. His father’s death opened a new branch in his healing work, grieving from his most profound trauma to date. But that trauma also catalyzed sex advocacy work, he renewed a commitment to helping others access mental health care and information about wellness. Zak joins me to talk about his healing journey, the mental wellness company he co-founded called Pym, that’s Pym and the Lemonada media podcast Call For Help on which he’s featured as a special correspondent call for help examines the dysfunctional mental health systems in the US and breaks down the promise and perils of the new 988 hotline, a 24/7 nationwide lifeline specifically designed to handle mental health crises. Call for help is hosted by Stephanie Wittels Wachs, and it’s available now wherever you get your podcasts.

Claire Bidwell-Smith  02:12

Hi, Zak.

Zak Williams  02:13


Claire Bidwell-Smith  02:14

Nice to meet you.

Zak Williams  02:15

Nice to meet you, too. Pardon the folksy background. I’m on vacation with my family.

Claire Bidwell-Smith  02:21

Thanks for talking to us on your vacation. Well, I start every episode of this podcast asking my guests how are you doing today? But how are you really doing?

Zak Williams  02:30

How am I really doing? I’m stressed I have decided to show up for life and tend to be taking on a yes can do attitude? And I’ve said yes, a lot. And even though I’m okay at setting boundaries and managing my time, I’m doing a whole lot. And it’s all very exciting. But finding ways to show up and be present for everything is something that I’m working on.

Claire Bidwell-Smith  02:59

I totally relate. I have way too much on my plate and kids and like the whole thing. And I often find myself saying yes, more than I should. So thanks for saying yes to this, I appreciate it. And I’m sure it’s like coming in the middle of a million other things. I don’t know how much you know about me, I’m a grief therapist, I specialize in grief in my therapy practice. And I’ve written a lot about grief. And I wanted to kind of just start by talking a little bit about grief. Because I think you and I both come to our work from really personal places with it. I lost both of my parents young. I never imagined that growing up. I wanted to be a grief counselor. Like that was not on my list of things. But this is the work I do now. And you know, it’s a way of honoring my parents and honoring the loss I’ve been through and just like all the struggles and the shit I’ve had to figure out to get to this kind of place. And from everything I’ve read about you and seem like it seems like you’re kind of doing similar work from a similar place. And I wanted to just hear a little bit about that.

Zak Williams  04:01

Yeah, well, I mean, for me, grief is something that I’ve learned how to manage specifically, the separation between grieving privately and grieving publicly. There was something that was kind of not clearly defined for me over a period of my life. And as an extension of that, just understanding that, you know, that trauma narrative for me, actually started earlier on in my life way before my father dying by suicide. It happened in childhood and teens and things like that. And I just wasn’t willing to acknowledge a lot of that as trauma. And so as a direct result of that these kind of old wounds opened up in my adulthood subsequent to experiencing what I would consider kind of the biggest trauma of my life to date. And so the experience of grief for me was something that I wasn’t really I’m able to acknowledge, as grieving for a long time,

Claire Bidwell-Smith  05:05

I think that our ideas around trauma are really changing and evolving. And I think for a long time, we limited trauma to certain kinds of people or certain kinds of experiences. You know, we thought about trauma for veterans, right. But there’s so many more layers and levels of trauma that we all go through. And it took me a long time to acknowledge that what I had been through was trauma as well. And that the effects of it were playing out in my life, for the same reasons, I just wasn’t treating them because I didn’t think of them as trauma. I thought that was just kind of something else wrong with me. And I needed to figure that out in different ways. But when I started to recognize my own grief and trauma as well, I was able to work through it in a different way. But it must be really intense to have to kind of navigate public grief and private grief, as you said, and like figure out what is grief? And what is what is your grief, you know?

Zak Williams  05:58

Yeah, it is intense. But it’s uniquely intense, while having a shared thread with so many other people. That might sound like a broad statement. But I think often we can forget, the uniqueness of our experience and our trauma and the like, has a lot of commonality. The reason why I think this is an important subject to bring up is often we can be very isolated from these situations. And we don’t necessarily have coping mechanisms, healthy or otherwise, to manage that. So there’s some very deep embedded, I don’t want to call it ancestral responses, but very, very ingrained responses that we have, right?

Claire Bidwell-Smith  06:50

Yeah, I think we have some inherited trauma, some inherited responses to trauma.

Zak Williams  06:54

In part, yes. And also accessing different parts of the brain, right? You know, if you’re talking about our fear response, and, you know, everything associated with the amygdala, and when we experience trauma and grief, often they’re elements, very deeply ingrained elements, these evolutionary elements that activate that become the field kind of foreign initially, that foreignness can be frightening. And so I think, managing that transition from experiencing that newness of the feelings to finding and constructing healthy coping mechanisms to then finding healing mechanisms, all while our brain is firing all sorts of novel ways. For an individual, it’s a lot to take on, right. And so, from my perspective, I think, especially for those who are oriented around trying to move on trying to set a timeframe around healing, often, everything can get jumbled together. And that jumbling can be very confusing for people, and for myself.

Claire Bidwell-Smith  08:15

So what did it look like for you, when you started kind of piecing things together and finding the healing that worked for you, I know that you’ve done a lot of research into kind of physiology and nutrition and supplements and all kinds of stuff.

Zak Williams  08:32

What did it look like? I first needed to start defining what it was that I was feeling. And as a part of that understanding what I was doing to manage those feelings, whether it was self-medicating, using things like alcohol, isolating, orienting towards anger, or rage or frustration, you know, starting to really understand the mechanics of my day. And what I was doing to support myself or not support myself was the starting point. It was very dysregulated for me to experience, you know, what I would call the acknowledgement of grief.

Claire Bidwell-Smith  09:12

Yeah, I think we try really hard not to acknowledge it, we try really hard to kind of keep it tamped down until we can’t anymore.

Zak Williams  09:21

I would say in my experience, too. I’m one who has a natural orientation towards trying to show up for others. And as a direct result of showing up for others without taking care of myself, it creates things like resentment. It creates frustration. It creates a lack of acknowledgement around actually calling out what I was experiencing. And so it took a little bit of time to develop enough self-awareness to understand that I was really struggling and there’s a physiological component There was a psychological component, there was connecting component the physiological to psychological component, meaning, you know, my body was experiencing things like stress and how, you know, your body’s stress and the like, ends up impacting your mood and mindset, and it’s all interconnected. What were

Claire Bidwell-Smith  10:20

the ways that you began to start recognizing that you needed to make changes? Like, was there a catalyst for that? Or was there like a rock bottom? Like, for me, it was mostly, I would have to hit some terrible rock bottom before I would realize that I needed to make some changes. But for other people, it doesn’t have to be that extreme.

Zak Williams  10:38

Yeah, well, I mean, the thing for me is there’s no, there’s no bottom, at least, there’s a progressive nature, the things that I was experiencing, whether it was self-medicating or like that would have continued progressing until what have you. So I needed to actually start acknowledging, there’s not some catalyzing event, there’s not a floor to suffering, if you let yourself suffer, and of course, if you can acknowledge, hey, I’m suffering and starting to really understand how you experience grief and pain and suffering and saying, hey, you know, I deserve better.

Claire Bidwell-Smith  11:15

Yeah, that comes with self-compassion, though, right? And that that can be, that’s one of the things I talked to all of my clients about is just cultivating self-compassion, we can be so hard on ourselves, or think we’re so undeserving of taking care of ourselves or that we deserve better.

Zak Williams  11:30

The thing in my case, you know, the bottom it would be Oblivion, whether it’s however, you wanted to find that body death, what have you. So in that sense, yeah, I guess there’s sure there could be a defined bottom but if you’re looking beyond that, really, when it come to starting the process of healing, there’s no stage that is the right stage. Right, you can heal at any phase. So however far along I was in suffering and experiencing trauma and dysregulation that like it just it just was time for me to say, hey, I deserve better I love myself enough to say hey, there’s processes I want to start taking a more positive outlook towards taking care of myself and you know, starting to find ways in which I could heal my body and my mind and ultimately my soul.

Claire Bidwell-Smith  12:48

So what did you discover I was, I was looking through your company’s website, Pym, prepare your mind. And just so like, all the stuff that I want, for my, for the people, I work with mindfulness meditation, you know, self-compassion and self-care, and like really looking at nutrition, mind body balance, mood balance, all of these things that I think have been overlooked for a long time in the psychological world. You know, I’m always asking my clients about kind of their health, their self-care practices, you know, what their kind of mood balance system is, and I’m just really fascinated by everything you’re doing.

Zak Williams  13:28

I started learning about lifestyle interventions, starting with nutrition. I found amino acid formulations were really helpful for me, after I decided to stop drinking alcohol.

Claire Bidwell-Smith  13:40

Can you can you explain what amino acid formulations are?

Zak Williams  13:44

Sure, amino acids are the building blocks of proteins and neurotransmitters and hormones, and a lot of what makes up say one’s mood, one’s mental well-being mindset. And if you have deficiencies of which the majority of American adults have, you’re going to experience some form of dysregulation. Once I start thinking about managing those deficiencies, it helps me get a better foundation, which I can then focus on. Things like the trauma, the PTSD that I experience, and a bunch of different things. So you know, I had the good fortune of my wife, Olivia Joon, who’s also a co-founder, in our company, introduced me to amino acid formulations to manage mood. And suddenly it was like, stress wasn’t overwhelming for me. That’s amazing. And yeah, and I wasn’t having, you know, the blues in a similar way. And so I was actually able to then focus on some of the more challenging elements of the trauma that I was experiencing.

Claire Bidwell-Smith  14:58

How can you focus on those and how can you sit with them and process them if you’re already so out of balance, right, if you don’t have the emotional fortitude and bandwidth to process those things.

Zak Williams  15:08

Right, right. And if you’re looking at kind of a broader ascension of that, nutrition is only part of it, it really comes down to fitness, mindfulness, meditation, community support, therapy, breath work, things like self-improvement, all of these things make up a mosaic that I learned to call a Mental Hygiene ritual. And that mental hygiene ritual is unique to people, yours is likely different than mine in terms of what I get the most benefit from. So I just so happened to want to take a deep dive into the nutrition side of things, because it seemed to be most impactful for me out the gate. And then expanding beyond that fitness is very, very useful meditation, mindfulness, it’s all ultimately quite useful for me. But there’s certain things that were a sea change over a very short amount of time.

Claire Bidwell-Smith  16:01

Yeah, and these are things just everybody needs, you know, and especially these last couple of years going through the pandemic, and like everybody’s out of whack their lives, their anxiety levels, you know, their self-care, there’s so much it sometimes gets overwhelming to me to think about how many people out there are needing help right now. And just what you know how to reach people and how to get care to them and just reach them with this kind of information or the right kinds of, you know, supplements or products or just like how can we help more people because most people, I think, don’t even realize all of this, you know, that they could be feeling so much better, you know, managing stress, better processing trauma, with the right tools.

Zak Williams  16:48

Yeah, I mean, the awareness around how lifestyle changes can decisively support mental well-being is pretty low. I think often part of the Western ethos is something referred to in the psychiatric community as point care solutions, meaning, take a mood stabilizer, and I’m not against point care solutions, they can be very valuable for people in many different circumstances where I get challenges when they’re applied in every circumstance, you know?

Claire Bidwell-Smith  17:22

Just across the board, just slapped on to everybody.

Zak Williams  17:25

Right. The best phrase I’ve heard in reference to this is to a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Right? And really, when it comes down to it, I think we need to start thinking about thoughtful ways to expand our toolkit.

Claire Bidwell-Smith  17:41

Yeah, absolutely.

Zak Williams  17:43

And looking beyond point care to actually more integrated solutions, and that you’re talking about rituals that can be applied every day that help bolster your body’s processes, and internal mechanisms. That, for me, is the most empowering for the mind, body and soul. Because then your bodies and your minds internal workings aren’t dampened. You’re not having a situation where it’s just like everything is suppressed, you’re actually finding you know, the sustenance, whether it be in therapy, community support that type of sustenance, or core nutritional sustenance, that your body can then synthesize into something meaningful. So I want to be very clear that what we need to have an opportunity to do as a community as a collective community is expanding our awareness around things that we can do to better take care of ourselves that ultimately can enable us to be clear, focused, and ideally joyful around in terms of doing.

Claire Bidwell-Smith  18:51

Yeah. Are you finding this work fulfilling?

Zak Williams  18:54

In terms of the advocacy work at this time? I’ve been doing it for almost seven years, and I do find it fulfilling it can be draining, sir. But as part of that process of giving and being of service, you know, part of what I’ve learned to do is orient around self-love and determine what I need to fill my cup. Yeah, that’s a balance that I deal with on a daily basis, but it’s something that I you know, I do with pride.

Claire Bidwell-Smith  19:25

Tell me about your new podcast call for help. It’s being produced by the same company that produces this podcast Lemonada Media and you’re working with Stephanie Wittels Wachs and unlocking explaining breaking down the new 988 call system, right?

Zak Williams  19:42

Yeah, sure. So I had the awesome opportunity to connect with Stephanie and the rest of the Lemonada team. And when Jess, who is a co-founder of Lemonada mentioned 988 which I was aware of, but wasn’t aware of the mechanics of

Claire Bidwell-Smith  20:04

Yeah. For anyone listening like it who isn’t familiar with it yet? Because it’s still like the word is still getting out. Can you tell us what 988 is?

Zak Williams  20:13

So out the gate just mentioned, hey, 988 it’s something that we want to educate the audience around. And I said, Awesome, I need to educate myself around 988 being the crisis lifeline, sponsored by the public sector by SAMSA, which is focused on essentially, addiction, mental health oriented issues. And as a government department SAMSA set up this initiative sponsored by Congressman named Congressman Seth Moulton, who is a veteran with PTSD who wanted to provide more contextual care for people. And so I was very curious about it understood that there was a precedent, there’s a couple of precedents one is a law enforcement response with 911, which is doesn’t lead to, in many situations, ideal mental health outcomes, the other precedent being Suicide Lifeline, right, which was a, you know, a number that you would dial. So the whole idea around 988 was how do you create something that’s easy to remember, that can be shared? Quickly, decisively, that would promote a response that was contextual, with mental well-being needs.

Claire Bidwell-Smith  21:35

But break down contextual to me. I mean, that’s a really interesting word. And it’s important to this.

Zak Williams  21:41

Sure, Congressman Moulton, put it really succinctly said, I want to create an opportunity for if a veteran needs support, and were to call 988, they would either connect with another veteran or someone with experience dealing with veterans. Right. And so the general premise is, if you were to call money, and you’re experiencing psychosis, or experiencing suicidal ideation, something along those lines, yeah, you would be connected with someone who has dealt with either these situations before it has the training to deal with the situations, or has lived experience, right. And that contextual experience has way better outcomes than a law enforcement response, or, you know, an emergency care response in which, you know, that often leads to involuntary holds, you know, these type of situations. So, so the whole idea of 988, and its genesis was something I was deeply interested in, I connected with jazz, who connected me with Stephanie, and we had this extended conversation around it, and I was like, wow, I’d love to be involved with whatever can be done to explore this further. And so I came on board to co-produce the series as a special correspondent, to learn more about what 988 was all about how the entire initiative was created, the genesis of it, the challenges of it, everything it took to really create contextual experience with a level of care commensurate with, you know, what you’d call innovative solutions.

Claire Bidwell-Smith  23:55

What have you discovered? How is it going? Like? That’s a big question, I’m sure.

Zak Williams  24:01

Yeah, it’s going well, response rates are looking reasonably good. Relative to the resourcing the starting allocation for the initiative was 300 million. That’s coming from the public sector that’s less than $1 per American. Wow. If you’re talking about the scale of how the government works, 300 million being less than $1 per American, that’s like, that’s how it works. Right? So it’s not an insignificant amount of resources. But if you’re looking at kind of where we’re at, in terms of medical GDP spending for mental health, the numbers vary. It’s depending on how you qualify mental health and behavioral health. On the higher end is about 4% of medical GDP, is allocated to mental health on the lower end is about two and a half percent. I tend to orient around a lower end because I’d say you know what would be qualified as mental health or behavioral health services kind of pretty loosely defined. But where we need to be to, to really provide the coverage for populations for American populations would be more in the 15% range.

Claire Bidwell-Smith  25:13

Wow. Wow. So we’ve got some work to do.

Zak Williams  25:16

So there’s that understanding about what great programs look like. You know, as part of this series, there’s investigation into Solari, which is an incredible center in Arizona that is doing wonderful work and providing incredible contextual care solutions. And then, you know, we go we speak with Thomas Insel who, who ran the National Institute of Mental Health, and really started understanding what the historical precedent look like, all the way, starting with institutionalization through deinstitutionalization in the late 70s and early 80s, and really developing a deeper understanding of what’s the historical paradigm around all this. And it was extremely illuminating for me.

Claire Bidwell-Smith  26:03

I that it sounds fascinating. How are they getting the word out about 988? Like, how are people finding out about it, because it’s still feeling relatively new to me.

Zak Williams  26:14

The initial launch July 16, was more of a soft launch, for lack of a better word, where it is getting out slowly, there is some awareness campaigns, that’s part of what we’re doing as well. But as an extension of that. Really, what we’re looking at is a period, I don’t know whether you want to call it a grace period, or not of turning the knobs and configuring the dials around this.

Claire Bidwell-Smith  26:40

Yeah, of course, that makes sense.

Zak Williams  26:42

Yeah. If you’re talking about what coverage needs to be, in its totality, the service needs to be able to field 14 million individuals, generally at the point of kind of suicide attempts or psychosis or things like that. It’s a little bit less than that. But the general idea is how do we support 4% of the population in crisis? 5% of the population, ideally, more than that, should the should the need be there?

Claire Bidwell-Smith  27:13

And how are they finding volunteers and providers? Like, how is that going? That’s gotta be a big undertaking?

Zak Williams  27:20

Well, they are paid folks, and there are volunteers as well. Generally, there’s sourcing for, you know, local and state based services, there was a precedent for this, they’re not for profits, they’re, you know, on a regional basis, there are organizations that take up the heavy lifting relating to actually speaking with people in need. So there’s that, but then there’s a coordination by SAMSA, to ensure that people are routed correctly, the idea around it is to minimize any sort of response for law enforcement or like, what that means is, if you’re in crisis, and you’re at a danger to yourself, or somebody else, a provider would ask us to transfer you to 911. Okay, right. So it’s not like suddenly, police will show up at your door, there’s a, there’s a navigation process. But the optimal navigation process is, hey, you’re experiencing this, let’s get you the resources you need. And, you know, guide you in the right path to get you to the point where you need to be.

Claire Bidwell-Smith  28:26

Well, it’s a huge undertaking, but it’s so important. And I’m so glad that you guys are doing this advocacy in this getting the word out about it. What else is on your plate? Why don’t What do you have coming up? What do you what else are you working on? It sounds like you’re doing so much good stuff.

Zak Williams  28:43

Well, you know, my focus is my company Pym, we want to ultimately expand people’s awareness around lifestyle interventions and understand that there can be brands focused around advocacy. That’s deeply important to me. In conjunction with that, I’m expanding advocacy that I’m doing, I travel a good deal, talking a lot about mental hygiene, the systems relating to providing innovative mental health care solutions focused on parity access, and quality of care. So that’s another element of it, but layering in the media component, leveraging things like podcasts, to generate more awareness and education is really important for me. I think a big lightbulb for me was understanding that sharing with people the evidence backed approaches that they can leverage to take care of themselves and the people they love was something that needed to occur more. So I very much am someone who embraces science and research and having the opportunity to share research in science and innovative new pathways for supporting people in something that’s deeply important to.

Claire Bidwell-Smith  29:58

Before we wrap up, can I ask you what like an average day of self-care looks like for you?

Zak Williams  30:04

Well, I’m very focused on nutrition. So that occurs throughout my day, I try not to eat processed foods, try to eat organic when we’re possible. Limited sugar. Good fats definitely follow what I’m eating in terms of nutrients. And I’m learning more about anti-nutrients, which is fascinating for me. Anti-nutrients kind of inhibit your body’s ability to absorb nutrients. Mindfulness, very important for me, tangential to that is meditation. But on mindfulness, a gratitude exercise is extremely important for me. In terms of fitness, I try to focus on low intensity, aerobic activities, walking, running, I love, but kind of like running that I’m not an extreme runner. So that’s, that’s important. Really, being able to spend quality time with my family and kids is essential. And then focus on self-improvement is something that, that I’m learning more about how to actually integrate into my daily life, there’s a practice has a word in Japanese called Kaizen, what are elements in our life that we can improve upon to improve our quality of life and our mental well-being. And then therapy is something that is important for me at this point in time, I’m not seeing a therapist, I’m seeking a new one. But have always found that important at times in my life. In conjunction with that, I’m in recovery. I’ve been sober for over five years at this point, and I take great pride in 12 step and community support, something that I love engaging within, but it’s not for everyone. For me, I would say it was It was like night and day, when you’re talking about having that lived experience support with a community that you can find deeper connection and opportunities to really understand that the symptomatic elements of say things like self-medicating, it’s really important.

Claire Bidwell-Smith  32:06

Those are all really, really good things. There’s so much that I just want for so many people, I just think a lot about how many people out there are just struggling with so much. And I’m always so grateful to people like you for just, you know, advocacy and providing just more information and resources and techniques and just anything that we can do to support others. So thank you so much for your work, Zak.

Zak Williams  32:32

Thank you, Claire. It’s a pleasure speaking. Thank you for everything you do.

Claire Bidwell-Smith  32:36

Yeah, thank you. Thanks so much for coming on today.

Claire Bidwell-Smith  32:46

I really loved the lessons Zack shared with us in this episode that relate to living a healthier life and cultivating better mental health. He’s out there doing the work from helping people develop mental hygiene routines, to creating wellness products to sharing reflections on his mindfulness practice, and helping launch the call for help podcast getting folks primed to use the national 988 hotline. It’s amazing to see his efforts not only deeply engaged with his own grieving and healing journey, but also commit to helping others access wellness. Remember to check out the call for help podcast by Lemonada Media, which is available now wherever you get your podcasts and spread the word about the 988 hotline. That’s it for today. Make sure you subscribe to the show so that you never miss an episode, there are three episodes a week. Have a great weekend and see you Monday.

CREDITS  33:37

NEW DAY is a Lemonada Media Original. The show is produced by Kryssy Pease and Erianna Jiles. Kat Yore is our engineer. Music is by Hannis Brown. Our VP of weekly content is Steve Nelson. And our executive producers are Stephanie Wittels Wachs, Jessica Cordova Kramer, and me, Claire Bidwell Smith. NEW DAY is produced in partnership with the Well Being Trust, The Jed Foundation and Education Development Center. Help others find our show by leaving us a rating and writing a review. Follow us at @LemonadaMedia across all social platforms, or find me at Join our Facebook group to connect with me and fellow NEW DAY listeners at You can also get bonus content and behind the scenes material by subscribing to Lemonada Premium on Apple podcasts.  Thanks for listening. See you next week.

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