How Can I Work Through My Shame Around Finances? With Lindsay Bryan-Podvin

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Honing in on her expertise in both mental health and social work, Lindsay Bryan-Podvin began specializing in financial therapy, an emerging modality helping people find both financial and emotional balance. Lindsay joins Claire to talk about how a financial therapist helps people process their shame and anxiety when it comes to money and big financial decisions in life.

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Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, Claire Bidwell-Smith

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin  00:00

The beautiful thing about where we are at this snapshot in time is there’s so much personal finance education that kind of pushes back against that idea of shame and blame. For 2030 years, the dominant narrative in the world of personal finance has been your fuckup if you have done anything wrong with money, and it’s your fault, and you better work really hard to get out of it, and you better do it on your own. Whereas now there’s so much more compassion for the systems in which we exist in and how not only our personal choices, but also the systems in which we live impact our relationship with money.

Claire Bidwell-Smith  00:45

Hi, I’m Claire Bidwell Smith. Welcome to NEW DAY. There are a few discussion topics they say you shouldn’t bring up at the dinner table, religion, politics, negative comments about someone’s appearance, relationship drama. Another one is money. Even though money impacts virtually every aspect of our lives, it’s treated as a taboo discussion topic in society, and even among family members or partners, you might encounter a hesitancy to openly discuss one’s relationship with money. Financial therapist Lindsay Brian-Podvin says that there’s a common trend among her clients and society overall, especially when people carry shame or anxiety around financial decisions, or when finances are closely tied to someone’s sense of security and life. Each Friday for the month of October, we’ll be featuring an interview with someone who’s going to talk about shame, and how it shows up in our sex lives, our financial decisions in our bodies, and our memories or traumas from childhood. Lindsay joins me on the show today to talk about shame and money and how a financial therapist helps people process their shame and their anxiety as it relates to big financial decisions in their life. Lindsay started her career in social work and as a therapist, She later moved to financial therapy, which is still an emerging modality because she believes in helping people find both financial and emotional balance. Oh, and if you’re in a relationship, you’re gonna get a lot out of this interview, because she has great tips on what couples can do to have better communication about individual and shared finances.

Claire Bidwell-Smith  02:22

Hi, Lindsay, nice to meet you.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin  02:24

Yes, you too.

Claire Bidwell-Smith  02:26

Thank you so much for coming on the show. I’m really excited to talk to you today about money.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin  02:30

Yeah, this should be a fun conversation.

Claire Bidwell-Smith  02:32

Yeah. I start every episode of this podcast asking my guests. How are you doing today? But how are you really doing?

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin  02:38

Ooh, how am I really doing well today, given that it is a day after a long weekend, I’m doing okay, I had a very restful restorative weekend. And it’s a short week. So that makes everything a little better.

Claire Bidwell-Smith  02:52

Nice. I feel similarly. Well, I’m so excited to talk to you about money and shame today. I mean, I’m a therapist, I specialize in grief. But even when you’re working with one specific issue, everything else always comes into the room. And two of the things that I see people have so much shame and secrecy and fear around our money, and sex. It’s these two things that come up with couples, they come up individually. And there’s just so much stuff around money. And I was wondering if you could just kind of start by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin  03:29

Of course, so I’m also a therapist, I have a background in clinical social work, and I’m a practicing financial therapist. So for folks who are like, what does that mean? It’s exactly what it sounds like. I have my training in social work. And I was doing the clinical thing for a very long time. And I got some additional specialty training in financial social work and in financial therapy. So I hope people with the emotional and psychological side of money so less of how to make a budget and much more. Why does it feel so weird to talk to my partner about a budget or why can’t I make a budget? Or how come I’ve made 1000 of them and can’t stick to them? Or how come I can’t talk to my boss about a raise? Those are more the things in my wheelhouse and that’s what I love to do.

Claire Bidwell-Smith  04:17

That’s so awesome. I am definitely the I don’t even know how to make a budget if I did I probably couldn’t stick to it. I was on your website over the weekend and I took your money archetypes quiz and I was exactly the one I thought I would be I can’t remember what the name of it was. But it was the one that that starts with life is too short to deny yourself small pleasures small. Yes, that is and I knew that that I was going to be some if there was a version of that it was going to be mine. Can you tell me about the money archetypes?

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin  04:48

Yeah, so the four mini archetypes were kind of born out of well let me back up and say that the field of financial psychology is new and how we are applying it because financial psychology has been around for a really long time, but mostly marketers and advertisers were using it, right? They were using it to say to their consumers, ooh, you definitely need this thing. Or you definitely need a credit card. And now therapists are kind of pushing back and saying, Hey, we can actually use this financial psychology to our advantage to help us think and engage with money in a much healthier way. So instead of just giving all the science to the advertisers and marketers, let’s give the science to the therapist and to the people so that they can make meaning of money in a way that makes sense. And so these financial archetypes were adapted from the site, this idea of money scripts, but I don’t believe in shame. As you probably know, I believe that teaching people to feel badly about something is not a great motivator to change. And so my approach is much more. What’s the why behind it that might come from joy or excitement? And how can we lean into that and start thinking about ways to healthily change or modify our relationship with money? So the four money archetypes really help us to see why we do what we do. And if there are certain things that we’re doing that we’re not really above with? How can we dial them down and still be true to ourselves. So for the free spirit, the person who loves the last minute, spontaneous Getaway is very eager to buy gifts for friends when they get engaged, or buy a new house, who wants to host a party that just, you know, drips of fun and excitement and joy? I love it, Claire, I’m like, I love it. How can we lean into those good things without saying you’re bad for spending money. And so that’s what these financial archetypes are about.

Claire Bidwell-Smith  06:50

You know, I think one of the things that’s so interesting, in what you’re saying is just kind of trying to remove that shame and looking at the positivity. And I think those are really wonderful qualities about myself, but I run into spaces and people and cultural corners where that’s not okay, you know, and it’s not okay to be that way. It’s not okay to spend or to be unaware or risky. And, and so I constantly do feel shame about it, even though those are also traits that I value myself. It’s pretty interesting.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin  07:20

Yeah, yeah. And so then with that shame, I can imagine, given that I’ve got a foot in the world of financial planning and financial literacy, there’s a lot of shame for the free spirit around, you should know where your money is going. You’re not being responsible enough; you should have planned for it. And I’m curious to turn the therapy tables on you clarify, those are some of the shameful kind of thoughts you’ve had?

Claire Bidwell-Smith  07:45

Yeah, absolutely. And I, but I, you know, I get a lot of messages externally, usually from men in my life. My husband and my ex-husband, very different relationships with money and philosophies around it. But also just in general, you know, and even when, you know, I was reading something else in the article you’d written and you mentioned, or there was something about it, like the Cambridge Institute study about how young we start to internalize ideas about money, and it was like, as early as age seven. And that had me thinking one of my daughters was talking to me about money this summer, and like, worried that I was spending too much money. And I was like, babe, you’re 10, you know, like, you can let mom make decisions.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin  08:27

Yeah, it’s no surprise to me that as children, we soak up messages around money. But I think as adults, we forget how much we learned about different things as children, to your point earlier about sex and money being the big taboos, we learn a lot about sex, even as children, right, we learned that it’s taboo. Or we learned that it’s not polite to talk about, or we learned that, you know, we giggle when we talk about it, or whatever it may be, right, we learn a lot of those messages. And so the same thing goes around money. We’re soaking up messages around what we’re allowed to spend on what we should save for what’s expensive, what is cheap, who has money, who doesn’t. We have ideas about all of that stuff. So you know, I think about it kind of in the way that we would talk to our children about something like sex is that we don’t say just we don’t talk about it. But we say things like what makes you curious about that. And of course, being sensitive to time and place. If it’s the middle of a grocery store, you’re not going to have the birds in the bees conversation right there. You might say, let’s wait till you get in the car. And I’m happy to answer that question in a way that’s age appropriate. But the same thing goes with money instead of saying no, no, no, no, no, we don’t talk about that. That’s impolite. We say Oh, I would love to talk to you more about that. Let’s wait till we get back in the car and then I can really answer your question and asking the child what exactly they’re looking for, like this idea of oh my gosh, we can’t spend that much like what’s the fear? There’s the kid worried you’re gonna run out of money. Did they hear somebody else say something like that? Eliciting with some compassion and curiosity, what the root of that question might be? Because it might not actually be, how many dollars do you have in the bank? It might be, oh my gosh, my best friend’s mom lost her job. And I’m really worried that might happen to us, right?

Claire Bidwell-Smith  10:16

Yes, so interesting. When you’re looking back with clients at where they started to receive their early ideas about money and the influences of how they think about it and feel about it, what kinds of things do you look for ask about?

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin  10:30

It’s all over the map, as you can imagine, it’s the schools we go to it’s the spiritual places that we attend, it’s the extracurricular activities we have, and then moving out even further, it’s the systems, the policies, the cultural norms and beliefs that all impact why we do what we do with our money. So yes, those messages that our parents and caregivers give us about money matters. Absolutely. But so does whether or not we were subjected to things like redlining or whether or not we were undocumented, or whether or not we were born in the US where the money message is work really hard. And you’ll do just fine. Right? So there’s so many other things that impact us, but I’m really looking for bigger money memories. So I’ll often ask questions about what are some of your earliest money memories? Tell me a little bit about what your first job was? Did you get a paycheck? Were you paid under the table? Were you paid in, you know, some of my clients, they weren’t paid necessarily in money, they were paid in trades, right? I’ll give you lunch. And you, you know, mow my lawn for me things like that. So really thinking about how do you think those things shaped or impacted the way you look at money? And how are those things helping or not helping you now as an adult, as you engage with your money?

Claire Bidwell-Smith  11:48

Money shame? Is it across the board? Is it certain populations genders upbringing, like financial status? Or is it everybody?

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin  11:57

I think money shame cuts deep through all demographics, and psychographics. Because if we just back up to this idea of money, guilt versus money, shame, guilt, as we know, is external, I did something bad. And when we apply that to money, it’s I made a mistake with money. When it comes to money, shame, shame is internal, I am bad. And so when that comes to money, and we layer on money, that becomes I am bad with money. And I think most people have had that thought run through their head in some way, shape, or form. And it may be that direct, I’m bad with money. But it also could be this overwhelming self-doubt, I’ll never get out of debt, I’ll never be able to pay off my credit cards, my kids won’t be able to go to college. All of these fears that come from this idea that I won’t understand money enough or be able to engage with money enough to change where I’m at right now. And so I find that money shame comes from all different places. And it can also come when we’re earning more, I have a lot of clients who may be of a different socio economic status than they grew up in. And there’s the shame there of will my family still love and accept me are they going to think that I’m different than the person that I was raised as money shame is not just, I don’t get money, but it’s also about belonging, because as much as we like to pretend we exist in a classless utopian society, those different barriers do exist. And when we add money into the equation that can get really uncomfortable. And again, going back to this idea that sex and money are really hard to talk about, it’s really hard to talk to maybe a parent or an adult sibling and say, hey, we’re in different socio economic classes. Now, what did you think about that? Right? It’s an uncomfortable conversation to have.

Claire Bidwell-Smith  14:08

Why is it that we are so quiet about money? Why are we so secretive about it?

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin  14:13

I think a lot of it has to do with that narrative. Particularly, you and I are both speaking as Americans in the states. The narrative that if you buckle down and you work really hard, you’ll be okay financially. And underneath that narrative is also a lot of individual blame. If you have credit card debt, it’s your fault. You should have known to not take out credit card debt. If you have a big student loan, that’s your own fault. You shouldn’t have taken out that credit card debt. Maybe you took a job that was deemed a little bit risky, right, our maybe not our parents, but certainly our grandparents kind of bought into this idea that if you stay with one company for your entire life, you’ll be rewarded. That’s no longer the case. Right? Research shows that job hopping actually tends to lead to higher incomes for versus being super committed to one particular company. So the messages about money that we have gotten are sort of true, but with a lot of massaging, but we don’t see all of the massaging that goes on. Plus, we are making meaning of what other people have in their lives based on assumptions. If I see my neighbor drive down with a fancy new car, I make a lot of assumptions that they can afford the monthly payment, but I don’t know whether or not they just gotten inheritance, or whether or not they took out a huge loan for it. I just have to make assumptions on they must have that thing because they have money. And then a lot of blowback and judgment can come on to me of why don’t I have that? Or should I be driving a nicer car than the one I’m driving? Right? So it’s a lot of assumptions and guessing. And it’s a lot of impoliteness and taboo, we simply don’t talk about money in our culture.

Claire Bidwell-Smith  15:56

Yeah, I’m aware, I was trying to think about if my parents ever really talked to me about money, and I’m sure my dad did on some levels, but there was like times when he got into math and money, and I just couldn’t deal and I spaced out, but I also know, I feel like I never really had, like create conversations about it, or got to be curious about it, or was kind of set up to think about it in certain ways. You know, it’s just been this like murky place that I’ve navigated, in my own way.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin  16:27

Yeah. And Claire, you’re not alone. I think most of my clients come to me. And they say things like, I don’t know, I just ended up finishing college. And now I have all these bills, and I don’t know what to do. Or I thought it would be easier right now. Or how did other people learn this? And I think there’s a lot of that, too, is that all of a sudden, you’re 18, you’re 22, you’re 25? And you’re like, what am I doing? And how come nobody taught me how to do this. And even in the instances where we do have personal finance embedded in the schools. It’s wildly outdated, right? Personal Finance curricula still includes things about balancing a checkbook, I don’t know about you, but I can’t think of the last time I balanced a checkbook, you know, versus thinking about things like how is a credit score calculated? And why might that be important as an emerging adult to have an eye on your credit score, right?

Claire Bidwell-Smith  17:20

No one ever told me about credit ever until it was like happening in some fashion. And yeah, I think about these things all the time. Like, how come no one ever told me about this stuff? But I do have that assumption that everyone else was told and knows what’s going on? And I’m the fuckup over here.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin  17:36

Yeah, I think that’s a common thing is that we all feel like the reverse of spotlight syndrome, where we’re like, Oh, everybody else knows what’s going on. And I haven’t a clue, but most of us haven’t a clue.

Claire Bidwell-Smith  17:50

So what are the steps to kind of starting to address the shame and release it? How do we do this?

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin  17:58

I think to start addressing the shame as to of course, name it, say, Oh, I feel a little bit embarrassed about this thing going on with my finances, and be really specific about what that is. It could be, you know, I’m 40. And I haven’t yet started saving for retirement, I feel a little bit of shame and embarrassment about that, what can I do, and once we name it, then we can actually start taking some action. Well, what are some steps around what I do if I feel behind in retirement, if I’m traditionally employed, then maybe I can reach out to HR and they can connect me with whomever the 401K or retirement provider is and then setting up a meeting with them. If you’re early on in your career, and you’re like, I don’t even know the first thing about budgeting, great, that’s a good place to start. The beautiful thing about where we are at this snapshot in time is there’s so much personal finance education, that kind of pushes back against that idea of shame and blame for 2030 years, the dominant narrative in the world of personal finance has been your fuckup if you have done anything wrong with money, and it’s your fault, and you better work really hard to get out of it, and you better do it on your own. Whereas now there’s so much more compassion for the systems in which we exist in and how not only our personal choices, but also the systems in which we live impact our relationship with money. So if you’re searching on the interwebs, for some guidance around, whether it’s budgeting or retirement or whatever, if the first few people you find rub you the wrong way, the good news is there’s a lot of other people to choose from. So don’t feel beholden to whomever comes up at the top of a Google search. You can search around for other people who maybe look like you sound like you walk, talk like you, etcetera.

Claire Bidwell-Smith  19:42

That’s really good advice that’s really helpful to think about. I think that I go into talking to any kind of person like that, assuming that I’ve done something wrong and they’re all going to be mad at me. So it doesn’t occur to me that there might be some compassionate or understanding about it. Talk to me about couples and shame and money.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin  20:02

Well, couples are a whole different beast, because we aren’t just dealing with one person’s financial and emotional baggage, we’re dealing with two people. And when you take two people together, you have to kind of figure out what are the shared goals? What are the ways in which they are going to collaborate on their financial goals. And what I find happens with a lot of couples is, somehow we’ve been sold this message that talking about money is not sexy, or not romantic or is rude, right? And then when we have couples come together, they somehow have silently decided, well, we’re not going to talk about money, that’s not sexy, that’s not powerful. That’s not exciting. We just won’t do it. And so then, you know, they cohabitate or they decide to marry. And things happen, right? You decide, oh, we want to have a child. And maybe we need a bigger space, or you know what our car from college no longer runs, we definitely need a new vehicle. And what happens is, you go to purchase a car, and all of a sudden, your financial stuff is all out there. And you see your partner’s credit score or their credit history, or you learn that maybe they inherited money that they never told you about, right? There’s so many different things that can happen. So when I’m working with couples, even when I work with individuals, I like to do values based work really leading with what’s important to you. But when it comes to the couple, the couple is my client and less, you know, this person versus that person. So I think about with them, what are the things that you want as a couple? What are the values that are important to you as a couple? And what are each of your strengths that you lend to this particular relationship, I find that the default in most relationships is one person deals with the money and the other person kind of rolls their eyes and says, okay, I’ll sign on the dotted line. But that can be really dangerous for both people. For the person who’s in charge, they might not know as much as they live on, they might just hate finances a little less than their partner, and so they end up in charge. And they may end up making some mistakes along the way that the person who’s not engaging with the money has no idea about. Conversely, if something were to happen to that partner who’s in charge of all the bills and finances, it leaves that other person in a really dangerous situation if they don’t know how to log into bank accounts, or how to pay bills, or you know, where the deed for the mortgage for the house is kept. So when it comes to couples, I believe in money dates, I believe in them very strongly. Again, they’re exactly what they sound like. And they can be sexy, and they can be fun. But it’s where you sit down once a month and talk about something related to your finances on a standing money date, I think it’s helpful to have a spending plan at the ready. A spending plan is my preferred term for budget personally, the word budget kind of makes me cringe and makes me feel really restricted and gross. And I don’t like it. So I renamed it spending plan. Anyone can rename it whatever they want. But I think having a spending plan on the agenda, making sure you know what’s coming in and what’s going out was really helpful. And then kind of thinking forward, what are the goals we want to achieve this year? What are the vacations we want to take? What are the things that need to be updated around the house? Do we need to save up funds for our child’s summer camp, and collaborating together on some of those short term goals actually helps to develop and deepen intimacy, because you’re collaborating on something together, and you’re planning on it together, and you’re working toward it together for the betterment of your relationship. And then, you know, once or twice a year, including some of those bigger picture questions. Where do we want to retire? When do we want to retire? How much money do we want to have saved? What are other causes that are important for us to give to and how much and what does that matter? So yeah, I think money dates are really powerful and important and including the why behind the financial goals is paramount.

Claire Bidwell-Smith  24:18

One of my best friends, she talks all the time about how she has what she calls a lack consciousness that she has this kind of like constant fear that there’s not enough and that she’s never going to have enough money is never going to make enough money. And it’s she’s always on the verge of running out of money even when it’s not true. She kind of embodies that idea. How does this happen? How do we get into those spaces?

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin  24:41

I definitely like to think of how is that particular belief serving that person so I don’t know your friend but I know many people like your friend who are terrified of money running out who are chronic checkers of their checking account. Just want to make sure that the money that they think is there is actually there. Who really hesitate to say yes to a brunch or a girls trip or whatever it may be? And oftentimes, I think back to how did they get that message? And how was that message protective for them. And often, in those cases where a person holds on tightly to their money, there’s a level of anxiety and a level of fear they’re, and oftentimes, but not always, they come from a background where either money was tight, or they come from a background in which having money readily accessible was a key to security or safety. So oftentimes, I see this in communities of color of refugee or immigrant communities or in children, like, you know, second gen kids. So for the person who is saying, like, I need money in order to be safe to that I say, of course you do, we all do. And I like to think about how much is enough for you to truly be safe, and how much would be enough for you to feel comfortable spending just a little, you know, not going on a first class trip around the world, but to maybe go out and get that Mimosa brunch and not feel super stressed about it. And oftentimes, it does mean getting real with your numbers and having a sense of how much you actually need. But I often think that that fear comes from a place of, I only feel safe if I have x dollars, and starting to potentially work with a therapist on uncovering that and cultivating safety and other ways could be helpful.

Claire Bidwell-Smith  26:24

What does a healthy relationship with money look like?

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin  26:27

I think a healthy relationship with money can vary from person to person. But in general, I think it means understanding that money is something that abs and money is something that flows, and that when we understand some of the basics about our personal finances, what’s coming in what’s going out, we have a plan for short term goals and for our future, and we don’t feel worried anxious or ashamed when we look at our money. To me that’s a healthy relationship. A healthy relationship with money means knowing that things will be okay that you’re able to weather the storm, you don’t beat yourself up. If you have to dip into your emergency fund, and you’re able to celebrate some of those abundances, you’re able to celebrate a tax refund or promotion, and not feel embarrassed by those things. So while everybody’s different way of defining a healthy relationship with money may change. I think in general; it means having enough resilience and capacity to engage with your money in a way that doesn’t make you feel like you want to throw up.

Claire Bidwell-Smith  27:30

Okay, I like it. Can you tell me a little bit? Can you tell me a little bit about your book, the financial anxiety solution?

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin  27:37

Of course. So my book is workbook style, I am a highly interactive learner, I need examples, I need to write things out I need to practice. And so I wanted to bring some of the things that I do in the therapy room to other folks, because there are so few financial therapists around. And I wanted to show people that so much of our relationship with money is emotional and is psychological. Depending on the study, you look at, we’re talking 80 to 90% of our financial decisions are emotionally based. So the book is really about getting in touch with your emotions, what your thoughts are, what your physical feelings are, and what your behaviors are around money. And it gives you opportunities to check in with each of those things, and to lovingly challenge yourself on areas that aren’t really working for you. And my favorite thing about the book, to be honest, is that there’s an entire section dedicated to mistakes. Because one of the things that happens when we start working towards having a better relationship with money is we think that to be good with money is to never air with money, which is absolutely false. We will make mistakes with money, we will overdraft our accounts, we will sign up for a credit card that doesn’t have a great interest rate, there’s so many mistakes that will happen. And rather than saying I made a mistake, I’m bad at money, I’ll never engage with money again, what we want to do is build up that resilience to say, I made a mistake, I can learn from it. And here are ways that I can implement some changes so that that hopefully doesn’t happen again. But if it does, it’s not the end of the world. So that’s the book, the financial anxiety solution. It’s really focused on the emotions and the thoughts around money.

Claire Bidwell-Smith  29:19

Can you give me an example of making a decision and emotion based on emotion? And what are different ways we can, kind of I can’t imagine that we that we’re going to stop making decisions from an emotional place, but what’s the what’s a better way to do it? Maybe?

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin  29:38

Great question. And you’re so right. We will not remove emotions from our financial decisions. And I think that has been something that has been repeated again and again, like don’t be emotional with money. And I think it’s really not helpful information or helpful advice. Yes, don’t be reactive with your money. But yes, include him. Oceans in your relationship with money. So maybe taking an example of something that we’re going through right now, potentially our word potentially a recession is happening right now depending on who you are. And often what that means is that we’re at a period of contraction in our economy, or we’re not growing the economy, that often means that the stocks go down. And if I am emotionally reactive, and I look at my retirement account, and I see all this red and an arrow pointing down, my brain is gonna go, oh, things are bad wrong, and I’m not going to want that feeling. So if I’m acting from an emotionally reactive place, or an anxious place, or a fear based place, I’m gonna just say, Oh, my gosh, I don’t want to see the red anymore, I’m just going to sell everything off, that’s probably not going to be the best decision because what you’re doing is selling your stocks at a loss. And if you’re listening to this, and you go, I don’t know anything that Lindsey said, that’s totally fine, you can grab my book, I walk you through it. But acting from an emotionally calm or wise place with that exact same scenario might be logging into that retirement account, seeing the red seeing the down arrows and saying, I’m feeling really stressed out right now, not really dig in this feeling, what I want to do is get rid of that red arrow as quickly as I can, and I want to sell. But instead, what I’m going to do is take a few deep breaths, and think about how wise of a decision it is to sell those stocks off right now. And maybe I’ll come back to this tomorrow, maybe I’ll give myself 24 hours to just pause before I come and look at my retirement account again, I give myself 24 hours. And then when I log back in, I remind myself Oh, yeah, I’m not retiring for 10 plus years, hopefully. And that money right now, I don’t need right now. And what we know about the economy as it goes up and down, and periods of growth are eight years and periods of contraction tend to be less than one year. So our brains tend to remember the good times and not really the bad times. So what I’m going to do is I’m just going to leave it alone. And maybe instead of checking my retirement every week, I can commit to checking it once a month. And that would be a way to make an emotional decision around actually not taking action and how that could be really beneficial. So it’s that reactivity versus that why is grounded action taking that can make a big difference?

Claire Bidwell-Smith  32:19

Yeah, I just like this idea of not trying to pretend that there’s no emotion attached to money because there isn’t, there’s always going to be it is an emotional route. Last question. I love all your work because you’re constantly talking about people like Brene Brown. And then I saw my favorite Kristin Neff, in some of your stuff. And so and I saw you talking about financial self-compassion, which is just so cool. I’m always talking about self-compassion on the show and my books and my work. Tell me a little bit about financial self-compassion. I know you’ve kind of touched on it here and there throughout our conversation.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin  32:53

Yeah, so financial self-compassion is if we are layering on what, you know, Jeff […] and Kristin Neff have shared with us is that self-compassion is about just extending some loving kindness toward ourselves and extending some empathy towards ourselves. And when it comes to our finances, as I’ve shared in this conversation, we tend to be really harsh critics of ourselves when we make mistakes, or when we make less than optimal financial choices. And so financial self-compassion is this idea that it’s okay to make mistakes. You’ll survive the mistake and making some loving meaning of the mistake can help you to move forward in a less shame based weigh in some financial self-compassion is exactly that. It’s just being a little bit nicer to yourself, when you are making financial decisions.

Claire Bidwell-Smith  33:45

I love it. Lindsay, thank you so much. Where can people find you and your workbook and everything?

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin  33:52

Yeah, good question. So my business is called Mind Money Balance. And I’m at all of those places under that handle my website, podcast, and Instagram are all of that name, you can grab my book, the financial anxiety solution, I highly recommend calling your community bookstore and having them order it for you that way, those dollars can stay in your community and you’re practicing a little bit of values based spending right away.

Claire Bidwell-Smith  34:19

I love it. Thank you so much, Lindsay. This was such a pleasure.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin  34:22

Oh, thank you.

Claire Bidwell-Smith  34:30

So we learned that financial decisions are both often shaped by and deeply impact our emotions and whatever ideas we have around money. Shame can hold you back from making healthy financial decisions. And there’s people and other resources out there who can help you process that. If you’re feeling anxious about a financial decision, or if you’re carrying some shame around your relationship with money, you might want to check out Lindsay’s workbook, the financial anxiety solution or look for a financial therapist near you. That’s it for today. Make sure you subscribe to the show so that you can Never miss an episode because there are three episodes every week now. Have a great weekend and see you Monday.

CREDITS  35:08

NEW DAY is a Lemonada Media Original. The show is produced by Kryssy Pease and Martin Macias. Kat Yore is our engineer. Music is by Hannis Brown. Our VP of weekly content is Steve Nelson. And our executive producers are Stephanie Wittels Wachs, Jessica Cordova Kramer, and me, Claire Bidwell Smith. NEW DAY is produced in partnership with the Well Being Trust, The Jed Foundation and Education Development Center. Help others find our show by leaving us a rating and writing a review. Follow us at @LemonadaMedia across all social platforms, or find me at Join our Facebook group to connect with me and fellow NEW DAY listeners at You can also get bonus content and behind the scenes material by subscribing to Lemonada Premium on Apple podcasts.  Thanks for listening. See you next week.

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