The state of this union is that V is back from D.C., bringing stories from the White House and quotes from the politicians who serve us. V gets them talking about the role of government and community resources, then highlights some of the work that’s already been done this year. Later, V is joined by longtime pal Jordan Harbinger, an expert in social dynamics and host of The Jordan Harbinger Show. They talk about creating a space for men that isn’t based on bro culture, plus how therapy and challenging oneself can go further than picking up degrading self-help books or idolizing toxic male influencers.

Keep up with Jordan on Twitter and Instagram at @JordanHarbinger and check out The Jordan Harbinger Show wherever you get your podcasts.

Keep up with V on TikTok at @underthedesknews and on Twitter at @VitusSpehar. And stay up to date with us on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram at @LemonadaMedia.

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Transcript

SPEAKERS

Jordan Harbinger, V Spehar, Rep. Frost, Rep. Jackson, Rep. Lee

V Spehar  00:00

Hey friends, it’s Friday, February 10, 2023. Welcome to V INTERESTING, where we break down the viral and very interesting news you might have missed. I’m V SPEHAR. And today, I was back at the White House, y’all. This time it was for the State of the Union. And I cannot wait to tell you all about it. We’re also going to talk about junk fees. What are junk fees? They are the micro issue that dominated much of Biden’s speech. But what does it mean in practice? And lastly, hey, boys cry too. The social emotional expectations for men are changing. Is that helping? We’ll talk about all that more on today’s V INTERESTING from Lemonada Media. Let’s be smart together. As you know doubt know by now, I was at the State of the Union on Tuesday. And holy moly, it was surreal. I was actually at two events in DC this week, the morning of State of the Union, I finally got a spot in the media room downstairs in the building where all the Congress people’s offices are. And that’s where I got to interview a bunch of democratic representatives speed dating style. I spent the day getting to know a little bit more about who’s representing us in Congress. And then I was whisked off to the White House for a watch party in the President’s formal dining room. Yeah. Joe Biden was like, hey, the watch party at my house just got snacks for us. And I was like, I would love to do that. Thank you for having me back. And listen, I know a lot of you guys were like the Why are you only spending time with Team Blue? And I will tell you, it just because Republicans have never invited me to anything. I mean, I would love to come and see like, what kind of snacks you guys have and hear your side of things too. So I don’t know, send me a DM. Now, going back to the first event of the day, y’all are going to be proud of me. I did 20 interviews back to back without a break 20 of them. And because we don’t have time to talk about everyone. For this episode, I’m going to highlight three, and they were all freshmen congress people. First up summer Lee of Pennsylvania. She previously served in her state Congress and was the first black woman elected from Western Pennsylvania. She’s also a lawyer. And then there was Maxwell Frausto, Florida, who is the First Gen Z member of Congress. And lastly, Jeff Jackson of North Carolina. He’s a veteran and currently serves in the National Guard, and He previously served in the State Senate. Now it would be easy to ask these representatives, what unites you, why are you excited to work with the President? Why should the Democrats be trusted as a party? But those are all pretty surface level questions, and we get that party talk all the time anyway. Plus, my goal when I’m talking to people is to really see them as people, who are they? What’s their life? Like? How can other people relate to them? And then it came to me, there are ways that the everyday person has a brush with government. And there’s one thing we can all basically relate to, it’s often pleasant, and sometimes even essential. And other words, there’s a government institution that most people, politicians and non-politicians, have a positive association with.

Rep. Jackson  03:28

Libraries have played a major role in my life. I know, I know, you’re going to ask this, but it’s actually really I appreciate that you did.

V Spehar  03:34

That’s representative Jackson from North Carolina. And yes, it’s the library. It’s a huge resource. It’s free, and it’s funded by the government. It’s a warm, dry place. It’s the only way that some people can access the internet. There’s water, sometimes they even have snacks there. There are events for kids and teens after school. The library is a magical place. And libraries are really in the news a lot right now. And I wanted to know how libraries were a part of their lives. Here’s Representative Lee from Pennsylvania.

Rep. Lee  04:07

That was our lifeline. Right? So my summer program when I was a kid, you know, I spent my summers in Braddock library. That’s where I met all my friends. That’s where I get into all my trouble. But that was our childcare. And also my mom spent her summers there, and my grandma hers and my sister who’s older than me, her so it’s been like a generational kind of rite of passage for us to grow up and spend time in our library.

V Spehar  04:33

When she was in her state level position. She worked to protect existing libraries from being torn down, because that was the place that basically served as childcare for her community. Like she says, It was a place for local meetings. It was even a place where you could get art. Her library had an Art Exchange where you can loan out artwork just as you would do with the books. As a kid representative Jackson was floored that there was a place he could get so many resources free of charge.

Rep. Jackson  05:00

Because I remember when my grandma took me to the library for the very first time, and it just blew my mind that I would be able to weave with all of these books. And then we read them. I didn’t appreciate until I was an elected official, the central role that libraries play in my district for community gathering, if nothing else, but just how heavily they are utilized, because there’s some people that don’t use them at all, and have assumptions. They are incredibly heavily utilized.

V Spehar  05:24

So it was only until he got a little more perspective that he realized there was even more to love, again, computer and internet access for people who don’t have it, resources for the unhoused. Literally, the front lines of social service in many communities is housed in the library. And many of the members of Congress I spoke to even revealed that they had moved their home offices into libraries to be closer to their constituents. It is easy to get to the library, there are always bus lines that go there. There’s ample parking, and folks generally know where the library is, and they feel more comfortable going into a library than a big stuffy State Building. Unfortunately, libraries and other institutions of knowledge are under attack. We’re seeing book bans and curriculum reform all across the country, especially in Florida, Florida’s governor DeSantis has banned the discussion of things like gender and race in schools, something he’s calling woke ideology, which means any book that even kind of involves topics of gender, race, or validates the existence of queer folks is off the shelf. So I knew y’all would want to hear how representative Frost from Florida is planning to respond.

Rep. Frost  06:37

There’s a lot of work we need to do, especially in Florida, our governor is attacking folks, based on who they love who they are, color their skin, we see him ripping away Black education, African American education and books and schools. So there’s a few different things we need to do. I think, number one, we need to pass federal protections for vulnerable communities in states like Florida, so that way we can actually learn about our history. So we can make sure that we don’t repeat it and that we, you know, it informs our president. And so there’s work we can do here in Congress how the President can do to protect people in states like Florida.

V Spehar  07:10

As you can see, these freshmen are coming into the 118th Congress with big ideas and urgent demands, but it’s always with their direct communities in mind. Some officials have been criticized by their local communities for running for higher office, they’re forgetting their roots, people might say, but if these three reps are any indication, their roots are front and center when they’re thinking about their responsibilities. And at the heart. They are here to preserve community gathering spaces, empathy, and neighborly care. That is a platform we can all get behind.

V Spehar  07:41

A lot of the issues Congress is tackling are going to take time, that’s just government for you. But over in the executive branch, the administration is actually making swift progress on some things. In his State of the Union address, Biden spent ample time talking about something that really gets him hotter than July, junk fees. Now, a few months back, we talked about how surprise fees were just one of the flaws of Ticketmaster. Yes, the company over promised and under delivered on Taylor Swift tickets. But there was another problem. The people who actually made it to the checkout were slapped with $70 in fees for each ticket. This combination is what led to the recent Senate hearing on Ticketmaster as a monopoly. Around the time swift gate was happening though, Biden already wasn’t having it. He announced an initiative to take down predatory fees in a bunch of different industries. He wanted to target entertainment companies like Ticketmaster, as well as things like transportation and even health insurance. But this was early in the process. So the crackdown on fees was still mostly hypothetical. Fast forward to now though, and we are already seeing a lot of these changes take effect. The Consumer Financial Protection Bureau just proposed that late fees for credit cards be slashed from the typical $30 to just eat dollars. They’ve also gotten 15 of the 20 largest banks in the US to get rid of fees for bounced checks. Surprise fees have also been a target, which means internet providers got whacked to the Federal Communications Commission will soon be enforcing new rules that require what they’re calling a service nutrition label. They are demanding that internet bills itemize their fees the way that Wheat Thins has to itemize every gram of sodium and flavor crystals on their labels. Because when you sign up for $100 internet, it should just be $100. Not $100 plus a bunch of unknown additives. There’s no clock on this WiFi, why is it costing extra? And those rules will go into effect next year. Biden hopes that all junk fees will soon be a thing of the past, but he is going to need Congress’s help for that. So he’s urging legislators to pass a junk fee The Prevention Act, Biden is confident that this legislation would get bipartisan support since hidden costs effect and annoy everyone. I mean, have you ever thought you found a really good deal on a vacation rental, but then all the fees pop up at checkout? Or even after checkout, I once got charged $180 For not vacuuming the Airbnb, we rented. Can you believe that? Or you have to stay with a bad internet provider because the cancellation fee is more than the monthly payment. These fees are unfairly affecting customers who have been, and I’m going to say it lied to about the total cost of products they purchase. And that’s not cool. I mean, this is America, we love spending money, so long as we get to decide exactly how much money we’re spending. So it should feel good that something’s finally being done to bring transparency to the capitalist hellscape, none of us can avoid, and there will likely be more moves to come including potential legislation to wipe out predatory fees altogether.

V Spehar  11:00

The New York Times called the Senate’s recent grilling of ticket master unusually bipartisan, but it seems like there’s something else that more and more people are agreeing on from all across the political spectrum. And that is that it’s okay for men to cry. There has long been and will continue to be people who think that men showing emotion is the worst thing in the world. And maybe you’re one of those people. Maybe it’s a deeply held belief, especially if it’s something you’ve been taught. It may feel like vulnerability is the same thing as weakness, or it may feel embarrassing or dangerous to be anything other than stoic. John Boehner, the former Republican Speaker of the House has long faced that criticism. He’s a big crier. He would cry during interviews he cried super hard when he met the Pope. And most recently, he shed a tear at Nancy Pelosi’s official portrait unveiling. But even with the inevitable shade that came from people on the internet, something was different about this last instance of tears, because the first thing that happened when he started to cry was applause. People in the room were clapping. Masculinity can coexist with emotion and we’ve seen it all over lately. And the sports world male players are increasingly showing vulnerability. You can see it in high moments like during one of the many upsets the Moroccan national soccer team made in the World Cup. When they celebrated their moms we’re always right at their sides. We’ve seen vulnerability and sad moments too, like when Roger Federer played his last tennis match and cried alongside his peers, and the Cincinnati Bengals showed a ton of warmth toward each other after a penalty and a recent game cost them their Super Bowl spot. The player responsible for the penalties sobbed on the sidelines and was clearly distraught over the mistake. And then teammate after teammate consoled him. The actor Jonah Hill also just made one of the most vulnerable movies you can make. It’s a series of conversations between him and his therapist. He talks about his brother dying, he uses therapeutic strategies in real time. He shows pictures of his younger self, he tells his mom how her actions made him feel when he was overweight. Is it a manly tears renaissance? Well, not quite a renaissances of revival. So that means this would have needed to have happened before. But whatever this moment is, whatever you can call it, I am here for it. Feeling your feelings are so inherently human that everyone deserves to do it. So let it come out in ways that feel right and work together to create situations where you feel safe to do it. In case you need some more inspiration. My next guest is one of the most respected men in podcasting, and I can hear it now respected men in podcasting. Yes, they exist and we’re gonna beat one next. Some people have even called him better Joe Rogan. And I gotta tell you, that is very flattering to Joe Rogan. This is my longtime pal Jordan Harbinger. We will catch up with Jordan right after the break.

V Spehar  14:23

Welcome back friends, did we have a good cry over the break? I hope that we did. I love crying. Here with me today is my friend Jordan Harbinger of the Jordan Harbinger show. His podcast gets over 5 million downloads a month, which is remarkable. Jordan is an internationally renowned expert on social dynamics trains the military and fortune 500 CEOs on communication strategy. And even though he’s surrounded by all that alpha male energy has been a really kind and thoughtful Dude, we met years ago and I think you will be surprised how we met but you’ll have to wait until the second half of the show for those juicy details. So Jordan, on your show, we learn the stories and secrets and skills of the world’s most brilliant and interesting people. That is quite the promise. What are the secrets?

Jordan Harbinger  15:13

So when I say secrets, I mean, I try to be counterintuitive. One thing that came up recently in a conversation with my friend, Mark Manson, who you may know, subtle art of not giving a fuck really popular author, one of the secrets is, hey, you know, I got really lucky. And I’m like, you know, me, too. Me too. And also timing, which is kind of like lux, little wing man friend speaking to us a relevant term for we’re going to discuss today. And it’s like, yeah, so that kind of secret is secret, not because oh, I learned the secret. But the secret is like, don’t feel so bad. If you’re not Mark Manson, or when you write your first book, or you’re starting a podcast, and you don’t end up as Jordan Harbinger, after two years, because I’ve been doing this for 16 years. And it took me like seven years to get anything where I was like, Oh, this could be the job that I do instead of another job that I have to do. And those are the usual secrets. Sure, some people have really good strategies, or they have cool systems that you can copy. But a lot of times, the secret is, hey, this just takes way too long. And it’s all about consistency. And by the way, I got super lucky when I got featured in The New York Times, and then dot dot dot, this guy went on Joe Rogan, and like immediately had a business. And I like to talk about that stuff. Because it’s really easy for people who are trying to grow or do something to be like, Oh, I am not doing these things, right? Because look at this other person who’s done this and done so much better than me. And I’m obviously either not good at this not talented, not whatever. And it’s like, no, you just haven’t had that luck yet.

V Spehar  16:48

Right? Yeah, folks will ask me like, how did you come up with under the desk? What’s your strategy? I’m like, I didn’t have one. I was literally goofing off. I’m super lucky that this worked out. I’m glad that it did. I had the skills to like, carry it through. But it wasn’t something that I started off with, like a super plan that this was going to be like the way that I got a podcast. This is the way that I got to meet a president. This is the way that any of that happened. It was having the skills and being in the right place in the right time. When that lucky break happened. You could sort of write that magic. And you just brought up Joe Rogan, which I wanted to bring up, because someone has described your podcast as a better Joe Rogan, which I feel is very generous to Joe Rogan. Far too generous to Joe Rogan. And it’s had like 700 some episodes at this point now. So when you’ve interviewed like that many people whose your favorite so far, like a place he liked to go to the most?

Jordan Harbinger  17:38

My favorite? It’s really hard to say because people will go Oh, must be a Kobe Bryant episode or it must episode with Ray Dalio, or it must be your episode with like, insert, you know, famous person here, Danny Trejo, and those are cool. Those are really cool opportunities. But I’m not a star fucker. I don’t really care about that stuff. I’m also not under the delusion that like, after I get done interviewing Kobe Bryant, he’s going to be like, dude, we should hang out. That’s not any of this works. So sometimes I become friends with my guests. But it’s usually the result of I wouldn’t say an accident. It’s not because they were on my show. And they were like, this guy’s awesome. It’s a longer thing. And so I don’t really think the celebrity ones are my favorite. I think my favorite ones are the ones where it’s like, hey, you should interview this guy. He doesn’t have a book. But he’s so interesting. Like, one of my favorite episodes was a kid who listened to the show. He was a trainer at a gym. And he was one of my clients at the gym is so interesting. And I’m like, whatever I get 100 of these a week one, you know, who’s your interesting guy that you’re showing how to benchpress who’s 65, this dude, he discovered a lost city in the jungle in Honduras using LiDAR, which is essentially like laser radar from an airplane. And he’s like, I know, from documents that there’s a city here, according to ancient Mayan history, or whatever it was Inca, whatever it is. So he got a lidar machine mounted to a plane, flew it over the jungle, and they came back. And they’re like, there are giant squares of raised Earth in the jungle that we can see underneath the canopy of this and that is totally manmade, but like hundreds and hundreds of years old, and there’s probably something there and they went and they found all this stuff, building statues, everything in the middle of the jungle, miles and miles away from any villages or anything that humans have just not seen for hundreds of years. Amazing.

V Spehar  19:26

And it’s just like this regular guy who works out at the gym who’s like, this is my special interest. And I’m going to take it as far as it can go.

Jordan Harbinger  19:32

Pretty much, and I went to this dude’s house and he’s like, this older dude who’s really interested in that kind of history. And, you know, he’s an older dude. So he had all these artifacts where I’m like, pretty sure that’s illegal to have and he’s like, look, at the end of the day. I’m gonna leave it to a museum when I die. And it was a gift to me from tribal elders and the hunters and I wasn’t going to be like, yeah, I’m leaving this year because it’s illegal. I’m like, okay, fair enough. But wow, that’s like a really cool one of a kind stone statues. that you definitely didn’t carry on your flight on Southwest. How did that get here?

V Spehar  20:05

Oh, this is like some grandpa magic kind of stuff, right like when your grandpa’s who never speak all of a sudden come out with like some crazy thing that they’ve got.

Jordan Harbinger  20:11

Indiana Jones. I’m basically that only no boulders and whips, but everything else is true. Yeah.

V Spehar  20:16

I know, right. And you cover some really interesting topics on the show beyond just like this kind of interesting stuff that I think are so fascinating because they’re topics that people might not have thought you would cover. Like, you had an episode on how to handle sex torsion, like, so you have a bad boyfriend? Oh, yeah, he has nude pictures of you. And he’s threatening you. And he’s gonna say he’s gonna post them and you have like a how to handle that. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Jordan Harbinger  20:42

I can. I don’t remember the exact how to have that particular episode, because it’s been a minute. So our feedback Friday episodes, our advice episodes, and we get doozies. We call them just questions. And one of them was, and I think this might be the one you’re talking about, because I feel like we’ve gotten sextortion a few times. Yeah, there was one. Where is this? The one where the woman’s brother in law’s the one that turned out to be extorting her. So this guy meets her sister, dot, dot, dot, they get married. But he had at some point inserted a nanny came into this woman’s room eight years ago, when he was just the sister’s boyfriend, getting all kinds of footage and nude photos that are not obviously stuff that she consented to. She wasn’t dating this guy and made porn and now she’s like, oh, no, she was literally spied on horror movie nightmare scenario. And he’s like, breaking into her house, putting the flash drive in her underwear drawer and being like, if you don’t sleep with me, I’m going to release these photos to everyone at work. And it’s like, holy felony, like, how do you get away with this? And she goes to that. So she went to the cops. And they’re like, yeah, this is serious breaking and entering extortion. But like they lost the laptop, or they didn’t, you know, they didn’t look at the laptop. She gave them with the emails where he admits to doing this and sends all the threats because he she got his laptop where he like, typed the messages and has all the footage and they’re like, yeah, the password didn’t work. So it’s just police incompetence, slash not giving you crap, slash the typical. I don’t want to impute things to the cops, because they don’t have any evidence. But I feel like a lot of times police are just like, whatever, hoe’s gonna hoe and why do we care? You know, like, I think they just don’t give a shit. And it’s like harassment of any kind. Oh, well suck it up. It’s probably fine. So we’re like, no, we talked to a private attorney, and a defense attorney. And he’s like, here’s how you get a restraining order. And then once he violates the restraining order, you report it to the police because the police can’t ignore a court order, which is what a restraining order is, they can ignore your calls and your pleas for help because they’re bastards in this particular case, but what they can’t do is tell the judge we’re not going to enforce your court order. Because we’re lazy and incompetent. That’s not going to fly. So we’re like, you have to force this on them. If they’re not going to help you. Because it’s pretty serious again, you know, I have sympathy for somebody who date somebody and ends up getting extorted by their ex. This person wasn’t dating this person. It’s like her sister’s husband. I mean, it’s beyond creepy that dudes obviously a predator and belongs in prison.

V Spehar  23:09

Yeah, absolutely. And how do you even deal with these types of things? That’s why I’m glad you’re creating the space for men. Because honestly, women talk about this stuff all the time, right? We’re constantly talking about different ways to use harm reduction tactics to stay safe when you’re dating or when you’re going out different stuff. Another episode you had that I loved was and it was another feedback Friday one was on setting boundaries with your mom, which again, is not something we get men’s perspective on really ever.

Jordan Harbinger  23:33

Yeah, that’s true. The sheer amount of questions that comes in about boundaries, and parents and or siblings is pretty, a lot of that comes in to the show. And I think the reason is, most people aren’t raised to know how to set boundaries, right? Because you learn it from your parents. But then what if your parents are the ones that are the ones that are kind of shitting on your boundaries? Okay, what do you do then who’s going to teach you boundaries, your mom who’s emotionally enmeshed with you, or your dad is not going to be the one who’s like, hey, other people can’t treat you this way. Right? We’re getting programmed by our parents. And so if they have these screwy boundaries, or they push your boundaries, your in laws push your boundaries, it’s like what do I do? And there’s all kinds of considerations. There’s someone at work is bugging you, you tell HR and your boss and that’s you know, the end of it or they get in trouble. When it’s your in laws, your brother in law, your spouse’s mom, your own mom, like what do you do? It’s a much more delicate situation. And you’re right there’s a lot of guys don’t talk about this. And then when you Google it, you get like a wikiHow article that’s got illustrations, three steps.

V Spehar  24:36

If you have ever Googled self-help books for men, there are some terrible options that come up titles like you’re the effing problem, how not to be an asshole. That’s the stuff that came up when I was searching, getting ready for this episode. None of that works of course. So where do men go for help?

Jordan Harbinger  24:52

Maybe there is good advice in some of those books, but the title is alone and again, never judge a book by its cover, but the title is alone. Why am IV asshole if I have a real problem here, and it’s like, it starts from the assumption like you’re the problem, man, suck it up radical accountability. Look, I’m all for Extreme Ownership in some situation where you can. But if my brother in law is extorting my wife with homemade porn, that he inserted a camera in her bedroom, I’m not the problem, right? She’s not the problem. That guy is a criminal and hit. That’s the problem. You know, it’s not like, oh, man, if only we had asserted our boundaries, like, No, you’re being targeted by a predator, because the not your fault. Guys love to victim blame other people as well. And I’m generalizing greatly, but part of the reason is, because we’re also taught that a lot of everything is also our own fault. And that’s a reaction to everything is someone else’s fault, which is bad, right? Because then we’re putting the locus of control externally, which is not, it isn’t always the case. But the correct way to handle that is not to then take the blame for everything and put the locus of control, or at least the blame, I should say, internally, just because you’ve been doing the opposite for so long, like the pendulum doesn’t necessarily work by just swinging it back in the opposite direction, and blaming yourself for everything. And that’s what a lot of those self-help books do. And it’s not helpful, because now you’ve got a problem, you can’t solve with the advice in the book that also says, oh, and by the way, this is your own doing.

V Spehar  26:19

Exactly. And this is something Jordan, I’ve known you for, I think it’s like almost 20 years now. And I did promise the people that they would get to hear the story of how I first came to know you. So I’m gonna, I’m gonna let him know now. So we’re going to take it back to 2006, New York City, you and I are in our early 20s. And you had the coaching company, which basically was teaching dudes How To Pick Up Women, essentially, by employing something called social dynamics, which in fairness, we both realized fairly quickly, not everyone had the same good hearted intentions of just helping men feel competent. And you could tell me if you think this is where it got messed up for you. But we were working together, I thought we were doing great stuff, there was a movement towards teaching men essentially the things that were beat out of them as children, which was to be compassionate, to be able to read the room to understand that they weren’t just the size of their muscles, or the money in their pocket, that they had all these other skills and interests that need them a viable and exciting partner for folks. And then the very next year, the fucking pickup artists came out and just trashed this industry that was sort of starting to change the way that men were allowed to feel about themselves. What do you remember about those early days?

Jordan Harbinger  27:30

So early on, I was super into this because I thought, wow, I’m learning about body language, nonverbal communication, eye contact, vocal tonality, like all these little things, where I had maybe one hunch in middle school and another hunch a year later about how something maybe kind of worked, but then it was kind of wrong and not based on and then it was science based a lot of it. So it was like, Look at the way animals do this. Humans can kind of do this, but we do it in a different way. And you’re looking at studies, like the I don’t even know the Milgram experiment or something. You’re like, what does this teach us about human nature? Okay, here’s another experiment. What does that teach us about human nature and you’re like, Oh, my God, humans are like, complicated animals. And we have different status games going on. And when you know about the status games, you can play the status game better. And I was really excited about that. And then this book, The game came out, and it kind of it brought a whole lot of people into the scene. Some were good, like, also sort of white hat like you and I were, and some people were like, kind of gross, treating meeting women like a role playing game, RPG, but like in a very zero sum way where the women were the losers, and the guys were the winners. And it was about sex and not about improving yourself. And I thought that on the whole, that was a value add, because so many people started to learn about this and got kind of into like the self-help thing, even if there was a residual crust of grossness to it. But then, like you said, that show the pickup artist came out on VH one, and it was literally just all of the negative stuff, all the zero sum stuff, made into a reality show that got a lot of these chumpy guys on the show a lot of attention. And frankly, I knew some of those contestants. And a lot of them were real assholes. And they weren’t that bad before they got on. And then they got on and they turned into these like really cocky dipshits. And I thought, if you’re the poster boy for what’s successful about this, that is everything wrong with this industry. And then I started to see people who worked for that particular company, which was called mystery method, become really jaded and disillusioned and get accused of sexual assault or lose relationships that they really liked, because they were lying to their women they were talking to or cheating on them. And I was like, this is just gnarly. We’ve jumped the shark. We’re no longer a self-help movement that has a dating layer to get guys interested at my old company, which I left. We used to call it hiding the broccoli where it’s like, it’s a self-help movement, but we’re gonna call it dating and pickup artist stuff because guys only care about that. And like sex is a powerful motivator. So Those once were like, Hey, we could teach you guys how to get laid. They’re like, whoa, and then we’re like, but you have to work on yourself. They’re like, fine, whatever, if it’s going to work, it’s going to work. But then it became, the rest of the industry started to be like, we’re gonna get you laid, and it’s like, Okay, do I have to work on myself? Now, fuck it, it’s all about tricking dumb women into sleeping with you. Awesome. And I’m like, ooh, not awesome recipe for short term success, long term disaster, you’re gonna get the guys depressed, you’re, they’re gonna realize that what they’re learning is not a bandage for their baggage that they grew up with, it’s causing them to problems in the first place. And you’re gonna sexually assault a bunch of women and, or harass a bunch of women and or just heard a bunch of people’s feelings. And it’s like, why are we doing it this way? Oh, because it’s easier than actually going to therapy and working on your shit. And that’s when I started to be like, I don’t see myself doing this forever.

V Spehar  30:48

It was such a money grab thing too, I remember, it was very expensive for a lot of these guys to get this special training. And the more expensive it was, the more they thought it was better. And it did cause an awful lot of problems, and I think probably pushed a lot of good guys even further into, there’s just no help for me. So but what you were doing was so different. So tell me, what was your company doing to help men genuinely?

Jordan Harbinger  31:26

Yeah. So what the way that we structured this originally was, and I know, some people are going to be like, he’s just whitewashing the reputation. And I’m totally fine with people like not believing that we had good intention. In the beginning, what we were doing was trying to get people’s nonverbal communication better. Their body language, like I said, vocal tonality, things like that. But really, we wanted to use dating as a vehicle for self-help, like I mentioned before, but we would start by changing a lot of the external characteristics of the guy, right? So he built a little bit of confidence. And it was really simple. None of it was fake. It wasn’t like, lie to them, and tell them this and this and this, there was none of this, like, demonstrate high value by mentioning that your friend owns a Ferrari dealership, like we don’t do any of that stuff. That was mystery method stuff, right? What we were doing was very much we would, I would say natural, and like, you didn’t need a shower after doing it because it wasn’t gross. And your alibi is story, whatever you want to call it, narrative wasn’t gonna fall apart. The second a woman got over to your house and realize, like, oh, my God, he’s lying about everything. No, it was like just being confident in your own shoes and your own skin, working on yourself. And then that would lead to a deeper sort of self-improvement journey where guys would go, you know, I’d be even better at this. If I lost the 30 pounds of Cheetos that I’ve had for the last decade, you know, I’d be a more well-rounded guy, if I got a couple of hobbies, and really dove into those, instead of focusing on work all the time, you know, I’d be a more compelling mate, if I really focused on my career a little bit as well. So you’d see these guys would come in, and then they come back a year or two later, and they’d be thinner, they’d be working out, they’d have gotten promoted, they would be working on they pick up a hobby or a language. And I’m like, this is a guy who has changed himself, yes, for dating. But really, he’s become a whole man in the last couple of years, spurred on by the idea that he’s not defective. And that he learned a couple of techniques and learned a couple of new mindset things which really kicked off the game, and then realizes, oh, if I want to make this really successful, I have to correct I have to sort of like deserve what I want. And that was the whole idea, right? We had to give guys a taste test and then they would come back for more. So that was really rewarding. And that’s what we initially started to do. And we realized nobody else was teaching this because a lot of the other instructors as you know, were like real misogynist, or the guys who hadn’t done the work themselves but it like decided they were going to wear eyeliner and light up clothing. And that was gonna miss mask who they really were.

V Spehar  33:59

Oh my god, I really almost choked on that because it was the funniest thing watching you know, because we were all kind of in this same swirl, you’re going to the same clubs, the same bars and whatnot and yours, you could almost point them out from the fedoras and black eyeliner and light up clothing and attitude. And the second it didn’t go their way using language Lulu, you’re just a niggle holic babe and it was like, Oh God, this is gonna be a nightmare. And on my side of the social dynamics thing, I was working with lesbians who didn’t have a path because the only path to meeting women was the traditional path that men had taken that they didn’t think was especially effective for them and it wasn’t you know, toxic lesbian culture and hey, Mama culture was pretty much the same as creepy guys culture and they didn’t want to follow that path. And then also having a lot of female friends who were like I heard this guy say this and I heard this other guy say the same thing. Is this something that like, is popular? Do they learn this from the pic But it’s why are they saying these things to me I’m like, I don’t know. And I’m so glad that we did get away from that. But unfortunately, even with trying to show men that the simple act of reflection was going to be what showed them that they were worth something which showed them that they were interesting, valuable people who, you know, deserved love and deserves to feel heard. I remember the first time we were talking to them about the importance of going to therapy and taking time to reflect and journal and guys were like, nobody wants to hear that people don’t like that. Or they didn’t feel like their story was bad enough, their trauma was bad enough, because they didn’t go to war. I mean, this was like peak post 9/11 time when almost every guy I knew had enlisted in the military. And the ones that didn’t felt like they never deserved to be Saturday in their life. They didn’t they were somehow less than or cowards or something else, because they didn’t, you know, serve in that post 9/11 time. And I know you’re a big advocate for therapy as well. Why should men go to therapy? We tell them that, but, but really tell them.

Jordan Harbinger  36:01

Well, one of the reasons is, if you have real issues, therapy is going to be great for you. Because you’re not really going to get an outlet as a man, if you don’t have real issues, therapy is going to be great for you because you don’t have an outlet as a man. And a lot of people will go well, I’ll just talk to my friends. If you’re a guy, you know how ridiculous that statement is? Because you’re sure shit not gonna talk to your friends about most of this stuff. If you are, you’re gonna be like, Yeah, dude, whatever, here’s a beer, that’s going to be their answer to whatever sort of issue you bring up. The other thing is, and I say this a lot on sort of, like my ad reads, For better help on my show, right? If you are venting to your friends, that’s okay, up to a point. But I think we’ve all had the friend where they just can’t let go of their recent divorce or whatever. It’s like, hey, I’m happy to be a sounding board for you. But I can’t do this. And I’m not qualified for this, frankly, like, you don’t feel like getting out of bed from Friday night to Monday morning, you’re depressed man, I can’t really help you. It’s not that I don’t want to be your friend. I literally am not qualified to deal with the fact that you have a mental health issue. I’m just a dude, who is like, over here doing my thing. I’m not a therapist. And so I’m a big advocate for therapy, because also therapists will point out things that your friends don’t have the guts to point out as well. So if your living situation and your relationship are a disaster, and your friends go, you know, I think maybe one of the reasons you’re depressed all the time is the girl you’re with isn’t right for you, and you go down, you don’t know what you’re talking about. Right? Right, right, and they’re not going to bring that up again. But if you do that, in therapy, your therapist is gonna go, why do you think you’re being so defensive about this relationship subjects, and you’re gonna crack that nut open, and like dot, dot, dot, start talking about your mom or whatever. And then three months later, you realize your roommate suck, you got to break up with the girl you’re with, and you don’t like your job, and you got to make some big changes, and you get skills and strategies to go into that from your therapist. And then over the next year or two, you’re a totally different frickin person, your friends are not going to do that, because it’s not worth it to them, even if they are self-aware enough to realize what your issue is, and then have the guts to tell you, it’s not their job. It’s not something they want to deal with. They don’t want to manage the process. They don’t have the skills. There’s a million reasons for this. And it’s doubled true with guys. Women needs therapy too. But it’s doubly true for guys, because guys probably don’t even have friends, they can talk to you about most of this stuff. Whereas at least women can give each other mediocre to bad advice. And they have many females have a friend they can talk to who will listen most guys, I doubt they even have that.

V Spehar  38:31

So they ended up listening to people like Andrew Tate, which is who I want to talk.

Jordan Harbinger  38:36

I was gonna say it turned into these kinds of people. Yeah, these influencers.

V Spehar  38:39

Yeah, so Andrew Tate, a male influencer, arguably has had the strongest hold on the male psyche, of any influencer, I guess I would call them of that I can recall, especially men like 13 to 25. Right now terrible guy, Andrew Tate, why do you think men are gravitating towards his kind of content?

Jordan Harbinger  39:03

Yeah, honestly, when I first saw, I saw I was on the Andrew Tate thing a long time ago before anybody knew who he was not that I’m an entertainer, hipster. That’s not what I’m trying to say here.

V Spehar  39:13

What do you mean by Andrew Tate songs right now?

Jordan Harbinger  39:15

No. Like, what I’m trying to say is somebody sent me this because they were like, hey, this is a guy that I know, out here in. I think it was the Czech Republic my friend lived in and I was like, is it a comedian or something. Because the video he sent me was agitate using num shocks next to a pool and then doing a jump in the pool. And I was like, I don’t get the stick. And he’s like, no, he’s like, showing off his nun-chuk skills. And I was like, no, he’s just like, slowly misusing. It’s like he’s never picked these things up before he must be drunk. Because why would he post that? It’s like, no, isn’t that awesome? And I was like, wait, are you kidding? You’re kidding me? And you’re just not and I was like, this guy’s messing with me. And he’s like, No, here’s all these awesome things that he’s done. And I was like, nah, and then three to four months later, I just keep hearing about him and hearing about him. And then that was probably six months ago. And I’m like, oh my gosh, I thought I was I just thought, am I taking crazy pills? That’s how I feel about Andrew Tate where I’m like, what am I missing? Because at first, I thought it’s dumb, whatever, next, but now I’m like, wait, what am I missing? And of course, most recently, what I realized I missing is, holy shit. There are a lot of emotionally vulnerable men. I’m not gonna say dumb or damaged or whatever, just vulnerable guys who don’t have other role models. Not only is it scary that this is the advice that he’s giving. It’s really scary that guys who are above the age of 15-16 years old aren’t going This is so stupid. Next click. Where’s the clicker? Where’s the you know, how do I move beyond this, the fact that he’s so popular is not even. I’m not even blaming him for this. Now I’m going and I’m looking at society and going Holy shit, the fissure here, the crack that he has managed to fill is terrifyingly large. He shouldn’t be this popular, it doesn’t matter even who he is, these ideas should be so repulsive to so many people that he should have a very small niche following. And I suppose in absolute terms, he really does. Because it’s not like a majority of males agree with this. But the fact that his online following has 10s of 1000s, if not hundreds of 1000s of people who are just fanatical about it. That should scare literally everybody.

V Spehar  41:27

They are rabid for him. And it’s part of this group of honestly liars, because a lot of the things that irritate has said about himself are easily proven to not be true. But then you also have guys like Jordan B. Peterson, who kind of backs him up who is another one of these like Insell gurus. And this idea of escaping the matrix, I get why it’s compelling to really anyone that is being focused at men right now. But these folks are telling them, that the real world that you exist in that you are struggling with, that you don’t feel a part of isn’t actually real. There’s this other third world where you are in a matrix. And if you can just, I don’t know, use the tactics of exploitation on the people closest to you, you can Escape the Matrix and be rich and famous and live the rest of your days in paradise. And that sounds compelling to people who are struggling, in fact that they give him $50 a month or that they continue to subscribe to it when it’s proven to not work and not working is something that I think is just so fascinating. And wondering, like, how do we get out of this?

Jordan Harbinger  42:29

Yeah, I mean, it’s at this point, it’s not even about Jordan Peterson or agitated, it’s really about God, last generation of guys like I in fact, in a way, and I know this is gonna sound controversial. I don’t even blame Jordan Peterson or Andrew Tate for this phenomenon, because they didn’t start it nor created. Are they profiting off of it? Yeah. But like, that’s the least of our fucking concerns right now. V. Right. And I mean that like it’s not yes, they’re furthering it. But if they wouldn’t, somebody else would. And I’m sure that’s the same rationalization they’re using, by the way, so I’m aware of this. But the problem is the market exists. It’s like, yes, drug dealers go to prison when they sell drugs. But are they the ones that invented cocaine and fentanyl? Not really? Right? Okay. They’re just selling it. And yes, again, a crime bad. But the truth is the fact that the market exists is the real issue. So like, we have to attack not the supply side, but the demand side, both in the war on drugs as well as in the what would you call this? Like red pill? Masculine nonsense, bullshit.

V Spehar  43:34

No fap and cell nation? I don’t?

Jordan Harbinger  43:37

Yeah, it really is that that’s the thing we have to solve for. Because there’s always going to be an Andrew Tate, there will be and there’s a lot of troubling details about him personally. But again, like they’re not even really relevant. We’re just shooting the messenger at this point. And again, I know his fans will probably say the same thing. But it’s like they’re proving our point when they say this, because these are not all bad guys that want to go out and sexually violate women. These are guys that have nothing to look forward to, that are disaffected, that are being radicalized by whatever shows up in their life that appeals to them. It’s like, in a way, remember when we had the ISIS phenomenon and these guys were online recruiting people and they would fly to Syria and they’d be like, oh, shit, this is actually really terrible. Yeah, that’s a physical reality version of what happens when you follow somebody like mystery from mystery method or Andrew Tate’s, you end up going there, and the more you convert your life to look like that person’s life, the more miserable you actually end up being. And the reason is because it doesn’t really fill the gap or solve the problem that you have. It just puts a bunch of really fancy looking shiny masking tape or whatever this metaphor is dying on the vine over the problem, because you’re going alright, I finally learned how to make money online. Okay, I finally learned how to trick women to sleeping with me now. I think all women are idiots because I can trick them into sleeping with me now how are you going to find a partner who’s worthy of your love and affection that you want to grow the rest of your life with? Because now you’re purposely surrounding yourself with manipulators and liars and the manipulated that you are bringing in to further your own ends. That’s not self-improvement. You aren’t walking down the wrong path, you are running down the wrong path.

V Spehar  45:37

And how do we stop men from doing that? I mean, we’ve talked about the idea of toxic masculinity for the last two decades, and in some ways that has driven people to be like, Okay, well, if everybody thinks all men are toxic, then I might as well be because I’m going to fulfill the prophecy that you’re putting upon me the expectations are putting upon me, does it start younger? Is it something that’s generational, that gets broken?

Jordan Harbinger  46:00

I would like to think that most guys are going to outgrow this kind of thing. But the problem is what happens when you outgrow it? And you’re 30? What happens when you outgrow it? And you’re 35? Right? Or you don’t have another belief system to replace the one that you have that’s making you miserable? I mean, do you remember Elliot Rogers, the guy who killed a bunch of people, and he was into the pickup artist scene, and he was on one of those negative message boards, where they were all complaining about women and Pete and you’re entitled to their sexuality. And if they don’t, it’s because the evil masculine guy, Chad’s are ruining your life. And he went, and he killed a bunch of people, and eventually it killed himself. And a lot of other guys have done this, too. They’re radicalized, it’s a mental illness issue, that’s not going to stop happening, you’re going to end up with more of them. And that’s why I say it’s not the Entertainer of the Jordan Peterson’s causing this. They’re just a symptom of the actual problem, which is that these guys exist. Now. How do we solve that problem? Unfortunately, I mean, now, that’s sort of a whole can of worms when it comes to like mental health care, the destruction of good influences on people’s lives in general, especially young men, just having really shitty role models and really, really crappy parenting, and not having their mental health addressed early on in the game. I know plenty of guys who are like, well, you know, entertainment system, good things just isn’t bad things. But the guys who go online and spend eight hours a day posting in his defense and watching every single video, these guys are really like, the red pill disaffected version of somebody who goes online and talks about ISIS, right? And I know people are gonna go what terrorists this guy’s an idiot. He’s speaking hyperbole. Again, we don’t have to do so many mental gymnastics. We’ve already seen killings from guys that do this kind of thing. We’ve already seen hate speech from guys like this on 4chan, we’ve already seen threats of violence from guys like this all over the place, and seen real world consequences, just like we do with any other form of radicalization. The truth is, if you talk about radicalization and or fascism and or like whatever, white supremacy pick your poison, they really have a lot of similar characteristics in the genesis of these movements as these red pill guys really do. They, and you don’t have to look too far for overlap between the people in those movements.

V Spehar  48:18

Now, we can’t escape the matrix because there is no matrix the red pill isn’t going to take you to the promised land. But there are actually ways that folks who are listening, who are like okay, well then what the fuck do I do? Like who’s a good role model? What do I do? Is there a path out of here? Like what’s safe to try and like, consume? What’s going to work? And you have a, I guess I would call it a system called like the secret third path. Can you tell me what the secret third path?

Jordan Harbinger  48:41

Oh, yeah, this is definitely not like a system or like a course that I sell or anything like that. I just mean developing healthy relationships and creating strong friendships. In general. It’s a great way to develop your career. It’s a great way to develop your social life. It’s a great way to learn from other people and surround yourself with high quality people. It’s not really a guru model, like a lot of these guys and one of the tips I would say is get rid of the Guru model that the problem is not again, Andrew Taylor, Jordan Peterson or whoever, you know, boogeyman we want to pick for this kind of thing. The problem is dudes worshipping dudes online. It doesn’t really make a whole hell of a lot of sense. When I was like firmly in the self-help journey, I wasn’t looking up to one particular or two particular guys, as influences. I was trying to get everything from any book that I could any system I could any man or woman that I could. The Guru model is very odd and it’s designed to sell products and merchandise and assuage the ego and pocketbook of the guru. There’s that’s all there is to it. There’s no benefit to following one particular guy because it’s not like these guys have a complete system that self-contained in order to take you from one place to another. They’re just dudes hocking shit on the internet. And so I think what a lot of guys need to do is take leadership unto themselves to develop. And if you take your examples from Jordan Peterson, and you want to make your bed and you take some money making examples, or whatever, from Andrew Tate, and hopefully leave the gross, misogynistic, unhealthy stuff behind, then fine. The problem is a lot of people just eat the whole pie, right? They go, oh, okay, in order to learn how to make money online, I also have to be a narcissistic asshole to everybody. And it’s like, why? Why do those things have to go together, because you’re following a guru and worshipping their words. So once you get rid of that idea that one person has the answers for you, and is coming to rescue you in some way. And you realize that it’s on you, and you’ve got to do it yourself, then you can actually take ownership and leadership in your own life and start to develop and get rid of these unhealthy influences.

V Spehar  50:54

Exactly. Just because you feel exploited right now, it doesn’t mean that the path of getting out of feeling exploited is exploiting other. Like, it’s not, that’s not the exchange that we need to be going for. But you do have a lot of great tips for people. So we don’t leave them out here in Atlanta, you have a lot of great tips for people and your courses have evolved over the last two decades, which I think is so important. When we know better we do better, we change advice that we use to give to be more in line with what’s working in the world. Now. Just to start people small, sometimes the hardest thing for someone is small talk, how do you start a conversation?

Jordan Harbinger  51:31

Sure. I mean, look, it’s been so long since I’ve taught any sort of, I would say basic level soft skills, like a lot of my trip, my only training now is either corporate or military. And so I would say look, at the end of the day, small talk is not really what generates really good, close relationships. starting a conversation is great, but I don’t think that’s really where my expertise lies at this point. A lot of what I teach civilians is going to be creating and maintaining longer term relationships consistently over time in little tiny steps that don’t require you know, going to a cocktail party or a mixer.

V Spehar  52:13

It’s awkward for everyone. It does not work in the long run to develop a deep relationship for sure.

Jordan Harbinger  52:18

No, exactly. So some of the tips that I find myself getting all the time to get people’s toes in the networking, and I hate that word as well. It’s been ruined by again, the guru model. But one thing I do that I recommend everybody do every day is grab your phone, go all the way to the bottom of your text message list, those old threads because it of sorts by usually by date, those old threads way at the bottom. These are people who you haven’t talked to probably in a couple of years. They’re old ties, but they’re strong enough where you have their phone number, right. And sure, some of them are exes, you can skip those your old boss who hated you, because you did something at work and you learned your lesson, maybe you can skip those people. Actually, I recommend not skipping those people. But most people are going to be like, I don’t want to do this exercise now. So go ahead and cheat, skip them for now. But go and send some of those bottom interactions, send them a reengagement taxes, hey, it’s Jordan here. It’s been a long time since we talked wondering what you’re up to. Now I’ve got two kids, I’m living in Northern California, whatever, sometimes I include a photo of my kids, whatever it is, depends on how appropriate that might be, you’ll see that maybe half to 75% of those people will respond. And when they do, they’re usually glad to hear from you, you’ll get a little update with them. Do this every single day with at least one person, you’ll find that you’re reengage in a lot of these weak and dormant ties over time. And it generates opportunity, it can generate career opportunity, it can generate social opportunity, there’s people in there that you might be able to help out with something you just never know. And it creates a really strong social network. And it does it in time that you would normally waste on Instagram. And I find it to be really, really beneficial. And what it does is it not only kicks the rust off your networking muscles, but it teaches you that a lot of these people that you thought would never remember you actually have quite a fond memory of you. And it creates a mindset that knowing more people and helping other people get what they want. And being up to date on their lives is actually a beneficial thing. And it can help you feel less isolated, especially in a time of remote everything. Work From Home everything. It can help you feel more connected, it can help you reengage old friendships. I’ve never heard anybody do this and be like, well, I regret it. You know, it’s almost always universally beneficial to your mental health and to your network and to your business. So I highly recommend people do that. It’s just such a small step, and it will get people wanting to do more.

V Spehar  54:44

I got one of those texts from you. I’m gonna tell you so it was 2016 and it was my birthday and it was the I was just rounding out the year my brother had passed away in 2015. I was having a really tough year but I was sort of starting to like, get ready for the anniversary of that my brother It was just the week before and I got this random, like, I think it was a LinkedIn or a Facebook message from you. There was like, hey, it’s Jordan. I see. It’s your birthday. What are you looking forward to this year? And I cannot tell you how much like you had no idea. I needed to like, hear that at the time. I was like, what am I looking forward to? Oh, I am looking forward to some stuff. And I wrote you back made like a quick exchange, but it was like, I hadn’t heard from me in so long. And that little message just came at such a perfect time. So yeah, to folks at home listening, you never know when you’re going to like just pop up for somebody who really needs you. And you get to have that great little moment with them. So thank you for that. Yeah, it worked. Now, you asked me this, you know, back in 2016, what am I excited for? So I’m gonna ask you, what’s what are you excited for? We’re at the beginning of the year here. What are you looking forward to?

Jordan Harbinger  55:50

You know, it’s funny. Last year, I was working on this, like big money, podcast deal and all this stuff. And I was obsessing over statistics and numbers and this and that, and the other thing, and it was such a stressful negotiation to get the New Deal that I’m in now, and to get through all of this growth and scaling that I was doing in my business, that I was like, I need to work less in 2023 and 2024. And I’ve never met anybody who says, I wish I spent less time with my kids when they were young and worked more. I think some people feel like they’ve fallen short of their potential and their career or their business, but I don’t think most people regret sacrificing that for their children. I think most people think that’s a good trade. And so my kid, Jaden, one of my kids, he got a bunch of RC remote control cars, radio controlled cars for Christmas, and they were all shit. One broke after like six minutes didn’t make it a block. One the wheel fell off when him and I were playing with the or two they were to the wheel fell off when they crashed. Another one every time you turn it would flip over. There was another one that like got slightly wet by being left out overnight. It not in the range, the condensate and it got run. And I was like, I’m so pissed. So I call the hobby shop. I’m like, yeah, better cars than this. They’re like, yeah, that’s kind of what we do. I rolled in there. And I immediately was transported from age 42 into age 12. And I bought radio control car, two of them. And I was like, these are amazing. Now I have like 10 of them. And they’re in you know, giant monster trucks. And my wife’s like, what are you? What are you doing? And I’m like, I’m enjoying a hobby for the first time since middle school. I have the money to support it, which is not how it was in middle school.

V Spehar  57:29

Yep. Big Boy money for fun toys.

Jordan Harbinger  57:31

Money for fun toys. I’m not collecting Maseratis, I don’t have jet skis in a house, Scotty, no Bugatti. I don’t have bling. Like these are just fun things. My son loves to go to the park and jump them around and ride them off of little curves. And I’m like, me and my three and a half year old son, just playing remote control cars for hours until it gets cold and he still doesn’t want to go home even though his hands are a little ice cubes. Mom making us come inside like two little boys making trouble. And I’m like, this is what I want to do this year. I want to not focus on metrics not focus on the business as much just let her read books and talk to smart people, which is what I do on the Jordan Harbinger show, and then spend my weekends and free time holding my baby daughter at the zoo and playing remote control cars at the park with my kids and maybe doing a little bit of travel. My parents are staying here for four and a half months which I know most people are like dude, really. But it’s great. I don’t know that you don’t know how many more good years you have at that age. And I don’t think I want to spend it looking at spreadsheets instead of hanging out with my dad and my mom. So that’s what I’m doing. I’m focusing on not working as much this year.

V Spehar  58:42

That sounds like fun to me. I mean electric cars hanging out with grandma, grandpa, this is this is a good time like you said success. Oftentimes the things that people are chasing they’re chasing success is the opportunity to rest and it sounds like you’re gonna have a chance to do that I’m so excited for you and to be back in touch with you tell folks where they can find you.

Jordan Harbinger  59:02

Sure if you’d like podcast which I guess if you’ve made it this far you must the Jordan Harbinger show is my show creative title. I came up with that myself.

V Spehar  59:14

Technically your mom come up with that name?

Jordan Harbinger  59:16

That was the other show but yeah, no. This one was all me really really creative named after myself. So I love it if people would find me there also of course I’m just at @JordanHarbinger on all social media. I’m on Instagram and Twitter and of course LinkedIn as well.

CREDITS  59:33

Thank you so much for being here, Jordan, thank you. It is never too late for growth and change or to learn from your past. In a digital world. It is so easy to forget how important real life can be and how little things like playing with electric cars or indulging in your hobbies or even just reading a book can make you a more interesting person. It is so important also to find other people who share your unique special interest and let go of any embarrassment or shame you might have about enjoying things. We shouldn’t be ashamed of the things that bring us joy. And remember, the men we most revere from the past are the ones who showed the most care for their fellow humans. That’s going to do it for today’s episode. Be sure to tune into next week’s episode where we dig into the headlines you may have missed. You can leave me a voicemail at 612-293-8550, I love to hear from you guys. Follow me at @underthedesknews on TikTok, Instagram and YouTube. And guess what friends there is more V INTERESTING with Lemonada Premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content, like my chat with Melissa Urban, the founder of Whole 30 who’s talking about how you can use ugly fruits and vegetables to affordably make better meals. Subscribe now in Apple podcasts. V INTERESTING is a Lemonada Media Original. Our producers are Rachel Neel, Xorje Olivares, Martín Macías, Jr. And Dani Matias. Executive Producers are Stephanie Wittels Wachs and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Mixing and Scoring is by Brian Castillo, Johnny Evans and Ivan Kuraev. music is by Seth Applebaum. Please help others find the show by rating and reviewing wherever you listen and follow us across all social platforms at @VitusSpehar and @UnderTheDeskNews, also, @LemonadaMedia. If you want more be interesting, subscribe to Lemonada premium only on Apple podcasts.