Subscribe to Lemonada Premium for Bonus Content

Abortion access is on the midterm ballot in more ways than one, from state measures restricting and expanding rights to federal races that will decide the future of nationwide legislation like Senator Lindsey Graham’s abortion ban bill. Andy talks with reproductive rights lawyer Fatima Goss Graves and activist Kimberly Inez McGuire about what’s at stake this November and how your vote impacts the future of body autonomy.

Keep up with Andy on Twitter @ASlavitt.

Follow Fatima Goss Graves and Kimberly Inez McGuire on Twitter @FGossGraves and @KimberlyInezMcG.

Joining Lemonada Premium is a great way to support our show and get bonus content. Subscribe today at bit.ly/lemonadapremium.

Support the show by checking out our sponsors!

• CVS Health helps people navigate the healthcare system and their personal healthcare by improving access, lowering costs and being a trusted partner for every meaningful moment of health. At CVS Health, healthier happens together. Learn more at cvshealth.com.
• Click this link for a list of current sponsors and discount codes for this show and all Lemonada shows: https://lemonadamedia.com/sponsors/

Check out these resources from today’s episode: 

• Read Fatima’s State Playbook for Gender Justice: https://nwlc.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/State-Playbook-for-Gender-Justice.pdf
• Learn more about Kimberly’s organization, URGE: https://urge.org/
• Learn about self-managed medication abortion: https://abortiononourownterms.org/
• Find vaccines, masks, testing, treatments, and other resources in your community: https://www.covid.gov/
• Order Andy’s book, “Preventable: The Inside Story of How Leadership Failures, Politics, and Selfishness Doomed the U.S. Coronavirus Response”: https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250770165

Stay up to date with us on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram at @LemonadaMedia.

For additional resources, information, and a transcript of the episode, visit lemonadamedia.com/show/inthebubble.

Transcript

SPEAKERS

Fatima Goss Graves, Andy Slavitt, Kimberly Inez McGuire

Andy Slavitt  00:18

This is IN THE BUBBLE with Andy Slavitt. So how big an issue will abortion be? When people vote, it is certainly among the issues that are driving women to the polls. And according to polls, we look at driving support for Democrats. It’s also an issue with candidates who’ve taken a position, either Republican or Democrat, and certainly with Lindsey Graham’s proposed bill to ban abortion nationwide, so important in virtually any Senate race. But there is another way that abortion is an important driver of the polls, this election cycle. And in a much more direct way, just as Kansas defeated an initiative this summer to add restrictions to people’s reproductive rights. The fate of these restrictions, including policies that take absolutely no exceptions, in restricting abortions are directly on the ballot in a number of states and could prevail. Those initiatives themselves could also bring people to the ballot and to vote who might not have otherwise. So I want to explore what the impact of these initiatives are in various states. Because we could sit here post-election with a very different reality for many people. And I got two great people who are joining me the conversation today. Fatima Goss Graves is the president of the National Women’s Law Center Action Fund. Welcome to the bubble. Fatima.

Fatima Goss Graves  01:58

Thanks for having me.

Andy Slavitt  02:00

And I’m very excited. Also to have Kimberly Inez McGuire, who’s the executive director for unite for reproductive and gender equity, or URGE, a grassroots organization, who’s also was very involved this summer, in what was going on in Kansas. So welcome, Kimberly.

Kimberly Inez McGuire  02:19

Happy to be here.

Andy Slavitt  02:20

All right. So let’s pick this apart, maybe the way to start, Kimberly would be if you could give us a bit of a lay of the land. Before we get to the midterms. How many states have enacted abortion restrictions since the DOPPS decision? How many still have protections and, you know, maybe there’s probably a middle ground that you may be able to inform us about where there’s some restrictions.

Kimberly Inez McGuire  02:45

Yeah, so unfortunately, the landscape is looking really bleak. We have close to half the country that has either banned abortion or pass restrictions so severe that abortion is effectively unavailable. And we know based on where those bands are across huge swaths of the South and the Midwest, that a majority of people of color in this country are living in states where abortion is banned, or may as well be. At the same time, we are still living with the legacy of before the Supreme Court decision, the hundreds of abortion restrictions that were passed all across the country. So even in states that may have escaped a total ban, folks are still being forced to delay care, make multiple appointments, jump through all sorts of hoops. And if they can do all of that, folks are still because of the Hyde Amendment, being forced to pay out of pocket for basic and essential pregnancy related care. So the landscape is looking really challenging, most of all, for people of color, young people and folks who are living paycheck to paycheck.

Andy Slavitt  03:54

And Fatima, one thing I just want to make sure it’s clear is, you know, at the time the Dobbs passed, the focus was on abortion. It’s becoming clear that the impact goes well beyond abortion. It goes to almost anything that could happen to a woman while she’s pregnant. I’m wondering if you have a perspective on how to think about what is kind of really at stake here.

Fatima Goss Graves  04:21

It goes to what can happen to someone who’s pregnant, but it goes to even bigger pieces than that. I mean, in the dogs decision, and I think this is one of the reason people are so enraged, they called the question about whether or not our lives bodies and futures actually matter. Right. And, and you will notice that women in anyone who’s pregnant, they were, like, barely mentioned in the decision as having an important impact. But it also tugged at this thread, and we’re already seeing this is playing out in states because these long decisions that said it is your ability to determine whether you have an abortion, they come from a line of cases that are also about your ability to determine whether or not you access contraception, your ability to determine who you’re in a relationship, whether you can get married and more. And so some of this is a question of what are our fundamental freedoms in this country, and whether we are all on equal footing? And the Supreme Court seemed to answer that with a no. And so that has led some of the most extreme lawmakers to say I have a license to do whatever I want, and there will not be a check. So I think that’s in part what’s fueling this rage, right? It is a sense that it is out of control. And to the extent that there is control that has been given to a small number of folks to enact things, that the majority of people in this country don’t want to happen.

Andy Slavitt  06:03

And so we talk all the time about how well, you know, elections matter. And this is what elections are all about. And in we tend to think about elections being about mostly about candidates. And I want to get to candidates in a bit. But there’s also this direct democracy notion, which we saw at Kansas, where things can happen right on the ballot by people showing up just as a reminder, because it was a couple of months ago. Kimberly, can you remind us what happened in Kansas?

Kimberly Inez McGuire  06:35

Yeah, it was really incredible to see the overwhelming turnout of Kansas voters in an August primary election, right, not an election that typically brings a lot of people out, not an election everybody necessarily knows about. But what was on the ballot was a measure that would have removed from the Kansas constitution, what is now understood as the right to access abortion. And this ballot initiative was deceptive. It was confusing. The language was terrible and even counterintuitive, but once Kansans understood that this ballot initiative would actually use their Constitution against them to take away a basic right, Kansans of all ideological stripes came out in droves. And in particular, new voter registrants, women, young people, people who’ve never voted before when they got wind of this said, Absolutely not. An urge was really proud to be on the ground with the abortion clinic, abortion funds, other folks who are getting the word out and really mobilizing in particular young people to say absolutely not. And that same trick, if you will, had been pulled previously, unfortunately, in Alabama, Louisiana, West Virginia, and Tennessee. Unfortunately, in those four states, the ballot was weaponized right against the rights of the people to get that kind of language through. So you know, those four states went the other way. Fortunately, in Kansas, we were able to secure the victory.

Andy Slavitt  08:05

So Fatima, it sounds like what happened in Kansas, even putting aside the outcome, but just the very fact that the voters got to decide is about to happen in a few more places. How do you feel about that? Is that do you think that’s the right way or a good way for this to occur?

Fatima Goss Graves  08:26

So you should understand that I definitely entered this conversation, in part, as a lawyer. And as you know, the child of plaintiffs who, who brought civil rights cases for our freedom. So I grew up thinking and believing in our constitution as being a thing that should be protected for people in this country. And so I’m having my own mourning period with the state of the courts and the state of our Constitution. And I believe it is up to all of us in this moment, no matter where you sit, to exercise, whatever power you have to protect people to preserve access. And I believe, you know, whether you’re talking about Kansas, or what I believe will happen in states like Michigan, that people having the opportunity to, to so directly express their frustration and anger with this decision and say, Actually, I want something different for myself, my family, my community. That’s a very powerful act. And I’m so glad it is available in this cycle. But ultimately, and in the end, I believe a healthy democracy has as a foundational notion that we are equal, and that we have these sorts of freedoms.

Andy Slavitt  09:48

So Kimberly, can you take us through the states that have on the ballot actions which would restrict abortion rights if they were to pass?

Kimberly Inez McGuire  09:58

Yeah, so we’re looking at Kentucky where we have a very similar initiative to what happened in Kansas, they’ve all been copying and pasting the same language. And then we have in Montana on the ballot, it would effectively a yes vote would pave the way for this really bogus disingenuous legislation to pass that makes pregnancy care harder to get while also having no foundation in like science or medicine or, you know, truth. So very concerned about, you know, Kentucky and Montana, and what could happen there.

Andy Slavitt  10:30

Okay, and how about states that have something on the ballot that would protect or even enhance the reproductive freedom for pregnant people.

Kimberly Inez McGuire  10:43

So we are very excited to be watching California, Michigan, and Vermont, all of which would basically allow voters the opportunity to either enshrined in the state constitution, or to deepen existing state constitutional protections, whether those are determined by courts or language that actually affirmatively exists. And we’re really excited to be working closely with partners in California on Proposition one, which, you know, really would stand to put California at the leading edge of abortion access and a model for the rest of the country.

Andy Slavitt  11:14

Tell us a little bit about that model, what would it what would it actually do?

Kimberly Inez McGuire  11:17

So what’s exciting about Proposition one is it goes beyond the sort of bare right to access abortion, and it recognizes that just because something is legal, doesn’t mean we can actually get it right. So proposition love would go further and presenting what isn’t, in many ways an affirmative right to access abortion. And so it would create more opportunities, for example, for low income people, right, who, you know, if abortion is legal, but you can’t afford it isn’t really a right in truth. So California would do more to ensure that people from a variety of backgrounds and life situations would actually go beyond abortion being legal and make it actually accessible.

Andy Slavitt  11:56

Let’s take a quick break, I want to come back and talk to Kimberly and Fatima about not only what’s likely to happen in those states, but also some of the candidates and the fate of some of the other things that are at stake in November, and that really see will this cause people to show up?

Andy Slavitt  12:33

So it sounds like we have Kentucky, Montana, Michigan, Vermont, California, where we have really, the direct outcome of people to access to reproductive care is directly on the ballot. So what do we think is gonna happen? Which one? Do you want to fathom a kind of a sense of what you’re seeing on the ground and what either polls or other things are telling you?

Kimberly Inez McGuire  12:58

I can start by speaking to California and perhaps this won’t surprise folks who sort of think of California as this progressive begin in times, we’re really optimistic about proposition one, there has been a groundswell of support. And, you know, honestly, there’s a point of pride, I think, for many Californians in creating a state where access is enshrined, including because California has the longest border with other states, right? So not only is California and training access for Californians, but with the recognition that many folks already and will continue to need to come to California for their care and in effect, creating a safe place for people who need access.

Andy Slavitt  13:40

I want to ask you another kind of related question, maybe Fatima, you can take a shot at this. There are a number of people like yourselves that have been advocates, and policy leaders in this space. There are obviously people who are would call themselves pro-life. But it seems to me that one of the things that’s emerging is that there are a number of people who they may be somewhere in the middle, they may not have ever declared, they may not have ever been extremely comfortable with the notion of abortion, men and women. But they also really don’t like the state coming in and saying that someone can’t do what they want to do with their bodies. And they really don’t like these highly restrictive episodes. And there appear to be people who are sort of maybe never really spent as much time on this issue, who are starting to say, you know, what, if I have to take a position, I may be a conservative, but I am not comfortable with the state getting involved in this decision.

Fatima Goss Graves  14:47

I agree. And so what I actually think two things made it a motivator. The first is a right was taken away. You know, it’s hard for people to get up and say the thing that I’m going fight the most for is the thing I think I already have. Right? You know, you don’t think you have to fight for the thing you have. And so to see it so suddenly taken away, people were surprised. And as much as we have spent the last couple of years trying to tell people this was coming. It wasn’t until it arrived, I think that it hit people so squarely. So that’s one thing. And then the second thing, you know, you sort of name that there are all these people who are sort of, you know, almost coming out of the woodwork to say, actually, when I think about it, I support the freedom to make these decisions. And that is because you know, abortion access has been so roundly stigmatized and shamed. People were afraid to say it out loud. And so now you have a lot of folks who understand what’s on the line, and they’re willing to be brave, even they’re willing to tell their own experiences, they’re willing to say out loud in settings that may be different types of settings. Actually, I believe this is an issue of freedom. And I think it’s the thing you name, that in general, there is a strong strain in this country, fundamentally, that we do not like politicians telling us what to do in our private lives.

Kimberly Inez McGuire  16:14

And I want to jump in here, because I think the dynamics are really interesting. So on the one hand, you know, it’s one thing to have sort of an ideological or philosophical debate about the morality of abortion, when you know that access is there. And we’ve long heard from clinic staff and clinic escorts that some of the people who come in and get abortions are people who were protesting out from the clinic the week before, right? That surprises nobody who works in abortion access, right? And so it has long been the case that people who access abortion come from a full range of ideological positions, what’s different now is in, you know, half the country, basically, that access has gone away. And that has outraged people. And it is absolutely what we saw in Kansas. I mean, there’s, you know, we know from our research from polling, there are folks who voted with us in Kansas, not because they themselves have made up their minds about abortion. In some cases, they may even personally be opposed. But it’s very different when the state is going to ban it and take it away from everybody. So what we’re seeing is a coming together of people who are outraged and very supportive and pro-abortion access, as well as people who are going, You know what, maybe I wouldn’t make that choice. But now you’re taking that choice away. And it’s no longer theoretical, right? The clinic doors have been shuttered. And so now, if me or my cousin or my daughter or my friend needs that care, right, regardless of whether they were protesting out last week, now it’s gone.

Andy Slavitt  17:41

Yep. Reminds me of we were adjacent to the marriage equality, battle and proposition in Minnesota a few years back. And it was interesting, because the kind of libertarian Republicans were very bought into the argument that the state should not decide who could marry whom. And that was kind of a surprising thing that happened. And it happened, it was a matter that, you know, they may have said, I’m not particularly a fan of, of gay marriage at that point in time. But when push came to shove, and it came to the ballot, they felt strongly that way, there was an article, and I’m guessing you’ve seen it, that came out in Politico last week, which basically said that in very conservative areas, conservative, non-college educated white women are motivated by this issue now, because they essentially, don’t buy the fact that when they’re in an exam room with their physician, or getting any kind of medical care, that the state should have any say, in what happens. And when they particularly see the highly restrictive politician who says, no exceptions, that is stirring them to consider this issue in a new way. And so I guess what I’m asking is, are we in fact, forming a new point of view, in part driven by what you both just said, which is you don’t worry about your right until they take it from you. And in part, because there are some people who have just not really thought deeply, never had to take a position on the issue. And maybe had a very complicated point of view, if someone talked about if they were at a cocktail party, and someone said, What do you think they may have had a very complicated point of view. But now they’re sort of having to declare, do you sense that that’s happening in any kind of large numbers?

Fatima Goss Graves  19:33

I appreciate you even using the word complicated, because I think the Supreme Court in these outrageous laws have made it not so complicated. When you’re talking about an outright ban, when you’re talking about putting providers in jail for 100 years. When you’re talking about following people from state to state, that’s an all-out assault. And so I think the question right now has been called and that you know, You may have a conservative identity. And, and that identity may be important to you. And you can see the writing on the wall with this decision with these laws and with the politicians that are forcing them down people’s throats.

Kimberly Inez McGuire  20:16

And I think we’re also seeing there is a simplification of the political question because we see in real life, that bands, even when there is a quote, unquote, exception, that doesn’t actually work in real life, right. So even in states where there may be a quote, unquote, exception for health, or life, a woman whose pregnancy is killing her is being told, go home until your septic, go home until your fever is so high, that you’re actually you know, going straight to the ICU, then we can talk about your abortion, right? So this idea that somehow there’s an exception that’s going to, you know, even account for those people, the exceptions designed for, it doesn’t work, right, that doesn’t happen,

Andy Slavitt  21:00

And then you gotta find a doctor who’s willing to risk perhaps getting in legal trouble, if it turns out that maybe she wasn’t so septic.

Kimberly Inez McGuire  21:08

Exactly. And the same thing is happening, you know, this conversation about exceptions for you know, sexual assault for rape, you know, what that means in real life is that someone who has experienced sexual violence has to meet the standard of having put in the right kind of police report, you know, told enough of the right kind of people hurt story of trauma to qualify for the exception. So what we’re seeing is this idea that somehow there’s a week at which abortion can be banned, or somehow there’s an exception that will take away the moral horror of an abortion ban, all that has been exposed to be false, we need real access, because without real access, what we see is pain and suffering on a daily basis.

Andy Slavitt  21:49

It’s so right to the point you made earlier, Fatima. At the end of the day, I don’t care what the issues are, there’s some other person somewhere who’s sitting in judgment, and saying whether or not you deserve to be able to do what you need to do and want to do for your own body and your own life. Whatever those factors are, let’s take a quick break. And we’re going to come back and finish up with a question of whether or not this issue will really get people out to the polls. There are some suggestions that as powerful as it is that it’s not as much of a driving factor as it was. I guess the question is when the rubber hits the road, we’re going to find out shortly, is will it really bring people out? And I think you may be inclined to say Yes, look at Qantas. But I want to challenge this a little bit. Because it feels like this election cycle has so many different threads running through it. Inflation, abortion, democracy, Ukraine, crime. And there are a number of people who would make the point that all of those things motivate people to a degree. But, you know, there is a line of thinking out there now, which says that women are more motivated by crime than they are by abortion. And look, we can’t paint everybody with a broad brush. But the question is, there some narrative being pushed? Yeah, after the Dobbs ruling, people really reacted strongly. But that’s kind of fading. And there are other issues that are going to be equal or more prominent, what evidence do we have that this really is going to be a motivator? If we think it is?

Fatima Goss Graves  23:57

Well, you know, women don’t live single issue lives. They’re thinking about their families, they’re thinking about their communities. And so I both haven’t been surprised that the issues that keep rising to the top and a lot of the polling, I say, I’ve seen our abortion and inflation, right. And so if people are thinking about more than one thing at once I, you know, I do think there is a piece to pay attention to, that is always uniformly underestimated. And that is around women’s anger in this moment. And that anger has to do with jobs, that anger has to do with inflation, that anger has to do with still being mad that we don’t really have a care infrastructure that makes it possible for people to care for their families. And a lot of folks are still holding multiple roles at the same time right now. So I actually think that a lot Dirt is really complicated. And these really extreme politicians who are driving these laws aren’t making it easy for themselves. Like, you know, people are just like, why are you? Why are you doing that? Why do I have to take time away from my worries about making ends meet with my family to fight for my basic freedoms that I thought were mine. So it is jumbled together a bit.

Kimberly Inez McGuire  25:28

And I would say for young people, and you know, we’ve been pulling on young people for years, we looked at young people’s views on the Dobbs decision over the course of this year. And what we’ve seen is, so one, abortion actually cracked the top issues that young people are tracking this year in a different way. Right. So there has been a shift. But the other thing I’ll say is, you know, along with, you know, economic justice, whoever you want to talk about inflation. The other issue for young people is racism. And young people see the issues of abortion and racism as inextricable, right and intertwined. And so when we think about young people under 34, in this country, which is majority non-white population, right? These are black and brown, young people, people, young people of color, who have successively voted in record turnout, the last couple of elections, right, like young people keep breaking their own records. We expect to see that continue, because what young people are seeing is patterns of racist abortion bans, racial discrimination, economic justice, that is not reaching black and brown families and black and brown young people. And young people are angry too. And young people have been using the power of the vote and will continue to do so.

Andy Slavitt  26:39

Yeah, I might add environmental justice for young people as well.

Kimberly Inez McGuire  26:43

Certainly. And safety. Right. Young people are also outraged that they don’t feel safe. I mean, they don’t, you know, they’re concerned about a climate that’s hurtling towards disaster. They’re concerned about gun violence that is impacting young people that’s unchecked, and their concerns about you know, their rights being taken away and trampled.

Andy Slavitt  27:01

So when we return to talk about in which states, there are candidates, were this contrast, is strongest and where people are most motivated. Moving beyond the several States we talked about with the ballot initiatives. Are there specific areas specific states, where if people in particular care about reproductive rights care about abortion, that is a big issue in their state?

Fatima Goss Graves  27:29

Well, one thing I want to name is that when Senator Lindsey Graham introduced a nationwide abortion ban, I think he really made the entire Senate election about abortion, in part, because he was pretty clear that if power changes hands, you will see a vote. And if it doesn’t, you won’t, so that that level of clarity, two months before the election, I think people need done understand, and I think they probably do. And then there are a couple of other states where the question is called pretty clearly too, I think, in Michigan, it’s called not just because of the ballot initiative for the state, it’s called because the governor has filed a lawsuit naming protection as the goal even in advance of the dobs decision. And so they’re having that debate pretty squarely as candidates. You know, you’re seeing it in Pennsylvania, the question really called very directly between all of the folks who are running statewide for Senate, but also for governor and ag and, and so people are having this debate actually far more squarely than you see in every election. It’s not every election, that you actually have an outloud debate around what to do around abortion access, and whether these both rights and access should be restored, that that is playing out. And so it is one of the issues that people are going to have to have in their minds as they as they go to the polls. And I would just

Kimberly Inez McGuire  29:13

add to that, you know, I think that the political climate in which it feels like, you know, rights are being wrenched from our hands, you know, every other day has also forced a crash course in civics for a lot of people so that folks are paying attention to more and more races than ever before, you know, who would have thought that something like the Georgia Secretary of State or the Ohio Supreme Court would become so politically salient in voters’ minds, but they are, because people are coming to understand particularly with attacks not just on abortion, but on our democracy, right. That who sits on you know, the Ohio Supreme Court, it has a lot to do with redistricting, right, who sits in the seat of the Georgia Secretary of State has a lot to do with election integrity in that state. So you know, the voters are sort of coming forward not just to seize the vote, but to really understand in a deeper way, right, all of these down ballot elections really make a difference on whether our rights are real or not.

Andy Slavitt  30:10

That’s a really interesting point. So I find it interesting that we have now at least several Republican candidates that have chosen to hide their position on this issue.

Kimberly Inez McGuire  30:25

Those websites, they sure did start to edit those websites after Kansas, didn’t they?

Andy Slavitt  30:30

Yeah. So I know that that includes the Republican Senate candidate masters in in Arizona, which is an important race. But it appears that this is not an issue, that people who are who’ve been very much supportive of whether it’s Lindsey Graham’s bill, or applauded the dobs case, seem they want to talk about,

Fatima Goss Graves  30:53

I think they’re gonna have to talk about it. And I think that they will be reminded through ads and mailing, if they don’t talk about it. I also just want to name that this isn’t a new tactic for a very long time, what we had were bills passing in states that were restricting access to abortion or just banning it outright. And then people didn’t want to have a public conversation about it, because they knew that that those acts were popular. And so now gone away is this idea that you can hide or do it under the cover at night, people are watching exactly which laws are being passed, you know, people are angry at the fact that they have no way to influence it, and that some of these states came back and did it in special session, and it happened rapidly while people are still digesting the decision. You know, it’s the usual tactic of hiding the fact that you are trying to undermine our freedoms, it’s not gonna work in the same way.

Andy Slavitt  32:03

But by the way, one other guy made it to make it earlier, when you talked about people who are protesting in front of an abortion clinic one day, and the next day or in the clinic. It just causes me to think about the recent most recent story about Herschel Walker.

Fatima Goss Graves  32:19

Yeah, you know, I have to say those who do the work on abortion access, we’re used to this story. We’re used to people shaming abortion out loud, and securing what was a protected right in their personal lives. And we’re not in that place right now. And I think you’re gonna see more people coming out and telling their stories.

Andy Slavitt  32:46

You both just had a chance to talk to Vice President Harris. What did she have to say, Kimberly?

Kimberly Inez McGuire  32:53

You know, what I really appreciate about Vice President Harris’s approach. And you can tell that she’s a policy wonk, you can tell that she is someone who cares deeply about the details, right, and the opportunities in a whole of government approach to actually meet people’s needs, even through a moment of crisis like this. So I always appreciate a policy walk. But the other thing that was really clear, and I think has become clear in this administration’s response is there is both a whole of government response to the question of abortion access, specifically, but also the understanding that this is not an isolated attack, that those who are coming for our abortion access are also coming for the right of trans children to learn and be in school. They’re also coming for our democracy. And so understanding and you know, when I think about urges constituency, right, we are by and for young people of color, young, queer and trans people, that the communities most harmed are sitting at multiple intersections, right, of needing an abortion of, you know, facing homelessness of being kicked out of school. And so I think the Vice President really understands what we’re up against. And this is not a single issue assault either. This is a multi-issue coordinated attack on our foundational health and rights.

Andy Slavitt  34:12

So let’s close by talking about that anger, that you brought up Fatima. I would suspect that some of the people who are listening to this episode felt some of that anger, no doubt have felt it over the last number of months, probably longer. And I think that the question they have probably right now is very simple. Helped me channel that anger in the next few weeks. So maybe you could each close by giving us a sense of if you are feeling that anger and you want to do something productive. That how do you point people?

Fatima Goss Graves  34:50

Well, I’m happy to start and we have a gender justice voter guide that we’ve just put out and it is a way for people to understand the issues that are at stake. And so one thing, if you are someone filled with anger, is get that information. And don’t just keep it to yourself, share it with your friends, bring people along, make sure that they are not just photos, but their voters with a little bit of information. And then the second thing that I would say is what a historic moment to practice being part of a democracy. And I think taking small acts, whether it is voting, or making a phone call, or joining a protest, reminding yourself of that power, that that’s a thing that I have found has helps a little bit with the anger, it reminds you that there are things that you can do. And then the last thing that I will say is that this is a long fight, it won’t begin and end with a single election. And the most important thing I want people to do is to recommit themselves, to fighting for their own freedoms, and for everyone else’s. And that is an ongoing fight.

Fatima Goss Graves  35:06

You mentioned that you have a voter’s guide, and we will have a link to it. Just go right to our show notes, you’ll find a link to that guide. Kimberly, what can you tell people?

Kimberly Inez McGuire  36:25

I would encourage folks to come to urge.org, you can learn more about our work in the South and the Midwest. And if you have to spare to donate to organizations like urge, we are on the ground fighting these abortion bans, where they’re happening and supporting communities that are being impacted. And the last piece I’ll say, and this is maybe new to some people, but I would encourage folks to become educated about self-managed abortion. This is increasingly how people in states where there are no clinics and where abortion bans are being enforced, are accessing abortion, even though they may face criminalization for it. And folks can learn more about that at abortion onourownterms.org. When we talk about reclaiming our power, part of how people are reclaiming their power is they’re saying, even if there is an abortion ban, there are ways that people have always ended their pregnancies, that people have always taken this power back. And you can learn more about that and what it might mean for your community at abortiononourownterms.org.

Andy Slavitt  37:25

Yeah, and maybe one thing that just add as close maybe if you want to touch on briefly is there a lot of people who are not of childbearing age or years that are really bothered by this. Some of them are men, some of them are young girls, some of them are postmenopausal women. And I think this is important for a couple reasons. One is, I saw a lot of people in Kansas, who were if that stripe who made this their issue too, because they’re offended by the fact that this can happen. And they don’t like that President. I also think that part of that anger that I sent from people that I talked to, is also fear and anxiety and a sense of feeling alone and not seen and not heard. And I think you said something important that I would just want to come back to and that’s good. Also close on, which is if you’re feeling this way, you are in the majority, not the minority, you are not alone. And the laws may currently not reflect that reality. But that doesn’t mean that you are not with the with the large majority of people in this country.

Kimberly Inez McGuire  38:38

Well, and that’s why it’s so important that we talk about abortion, because it’s actually the abortion stigma and silence that has kept us from realizing we are absolutely the majority. And by the way, we’re the majority in Alabama, in Texas and Kansas and Ohio in every single state. And part of that is because while one in four people who can become pregnant will get an abortion. Four out of four people are part of a family, right? Whether that’s a chosen family or a biological family, and all of us can see that making decisions about our families, about our pregnancies about our health is something that we can all be passionate about. It’s something that we can all be vocal about. Regardless of our you know, our entry point into the conversation. We are all part of families and we should all be able to make decisions about our own families for ourselves without politicians getting in the middle.

Andy Slavitt  39:29

Fatima Goss, graves. Kimberly Ynez McGuire, thank you so much both for being here. And for all the work that you’re doing.

Fatima Goss Graves  39:40

Thanks so much.

Kimberly Inez McGuire  39:41

Thanks for having us.

Andy Slavitt  39:55

Thanks for tuning in this week, and to listen to the Friday conversation and hope you enjoy that. Monday we have Robert Draper. Robert is a New York Times Magazine author. He was in the Capitol on January 6. That is a fascinating conversation Wednesday William McCaskill talking about what we hold the future. And Friday, my dear friend Stephanie Wittels Wachs is going to take the mic and host conversation as we get ready for the election. Thank you everybody for listening in this week, and I hope you end up having a great weekend.

CREDITS  40:37

Thanks for listening to IN THE BUBBLE. We’re a production of Lemonada Media. Kathryn Barnes, Jackie Harris and Kyle Shiely produced our show, and they’re great. Our mix is by Noah Smith and James Barber, and they’re great, too. Steve Nelson is the vice president of the weekly content, and he’s okay, too. And of course, the ultimate bosses, Jessica Cordova Kramer and Stephanie Wittels Wachs, they executive produced the show, we love them dearly. Our theme was composed by Dan Molad and Oliver Hill, with additional music by Ivan Kuraev. You can find out more about our show on social media at @LemonadaMedia where you’ll also get the transcript of the show. And you can find me at @ASlavitt on Twitter. If you like what you heard today, why don’t you tell your friends to listen as well, and get them to write a review. Thanks so much, talk to you next time.