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Women are asking for divorce way more than men. Why is that, and shouldn’t that choice be met with celebration rather than pity? Ricki talks about her own divorces with Lyz Lenz, author of the recent memoir, “This American Ex-Wife: How I Ended my Marriage and Started my Life.” They get into finances (who keeps the house?), the perks of becoming single again (wine and murder podcasts!), and how to know if/when you’re ready to remarry.

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Transcript

SPEAKERS

Lyz Lenz, Ricki Lake

Ricki Lake  00:02

This is The High Life with me, Ricki Lake, where we get to find out how my guests crack the code to living a full and vibrant life, so you can too. All right, I’m the marrying kind, okay. I am married to my beloved Ross. He is my third and final and favorite marriage. I learned so much about myself through my divorce with my first husband, I had my two children with him. I was married at 25 divorced at 35 divorces, in my opinion, are sometimes a stepping stone to that right person. And my guest this week knows all about divorce. Lyz Lenz is a New York Times best selling author and writer. She writes about faith, pregnancy, and most recently, her split with her husband. She turned the story of her divorce into a book that just came out this year called this American ex wife, how I ended my marriage and started my life. What a title in it, she shares an intimate look into her divorce, and provides context to how the institution of marriage has left many women with very few options and freedom. I just love everything you’re about, and I’m so happy to talk to you today. Welcome, Lyz.

 

Lyz Lenz  01:12

Thank you so much for having me. I love you. I love your work. You’re incredible.

 

Ricki Lake  01:17

Okay, start my show with every guest, one question, where are you getting your highs from right now? What is bringing you joy of late?

 

Lyz Lenz  01:26

You know, the world is an insane place, and I write a lot about it, and I spend a lot of time in the news, and I’m very stressed out about it, like I think so many people are. So the thing that’s been giving me joy is just like, doing house projects. Like, I rented a paint sprayer, and I’m like, repainting my basement. And so I’m like.

 

Ricki Lake  01:51

You know how to do that? Did you know how?

 

Lyz Lenz  01:53

Listen, if a guy on YouTube can do it, I can do it. And that’s my whole motto for, like, fixing my home. I’m like, if some guy named Kyle on YouTube can do it.

 

Ricki Lake  02:06

Then shout out to Kyle, then Kyle.

 

Lyz Lenz  02:08

I can do it too. So yeah, and actually, I’ve decided I don’t need therapy. I just need to use a paint sprayer, because that I feel so powerful. It’s, it’s, you can see a beginning and end. Do you know what I mean? It’s just like, it’s, yeah.

 

Ricki Lake  02:24

No, I do. And it’s like, something you can control, right?

 

Lyz Lenz  02:27

Something I can control. And if I can’t make the world a beautiful place, I can make my home, yeah, beautiful place and a safe place for my friends to gather and a safe place for my children. So that is where I’m finding a lot of joy, like buying pumpkin throw pillows and putting them on my couch and just being like.

 

Ricki Lake  02:48

Yeah, you’re in Iowa. Is Iowa? I assume it’s a red state.

 

Lyz Lenz  02:52

Oh, we’re a red state. We haven’t always been a red state. You know, historically, we’ve been very progressive, but right now we are very red.

 

Ricki Lake  03:02

I don’t think I’ve ever been to Iowa, but anyway, let’s talk divorce. Okay, and your book? I can’t imagine writing. I’ve thought like I’ve dreamed of wanting to tell my story of my divorces, and I couldn’t get to it. What made you decide to write this book?

 

Lyz Lenz  03:17

So I split up with my now ex husband in 2017 the 2016 election kind of revealed a lot of our differences and and then, you know, as I talk in the book, we not just had political differences, but differences in like, what he expected of me in the home, his willingness to support my career, The chores, everything, it just kind of fell apart. So, you know, end of 2017 early 2018 I felt like a big loser. You know, I was cry. I was putting together cheap furniture in a rented home, wondering what the hell I had done. And I thought of my marriage, then I thought of it, then as a failure. And it wasn’t until I started writing about it. I wrote a piece for glamor called now that I’m divorced, I’m never cooking for a man again, and it was like about the labor of dinner. And I wrote that, and it went viral, and I heard from all of these women. It was like my inbox. No piece has ever that I’ve ever written, and I’ve been writing for like, 20 years has ever generated so much feedback, and that was the first time where I thought, oh, there’s a story here. There’s a story here that so many women cannot tell because they’re raising children, co parenting with a person. But there is something happening here with women and marriage. And then 2020 happened, and then the shutdowns happened. And I think all these ideas of equality, or, you know, I have such a good marriage, went out the window when people had to be locked in their houses with their husbands, who were, you know, locked in the office, doing? Zoom calls while, you know, the wife was doing a zoom call, and homeschooling and, you know, like finding where toilet paper was, and so all of that happened. And I was like, I need to write about this, because often divorce stories are, like, really personal journeys like this is what happened to me. But I wanted to talk about divorce as a systemic failure of the way that we view marriage and the way we see the labor of women. But yes, like all divorce stories, there’s a lot of stuff that I couldn’t even put in the book because it gets so personal and so messy.

 

Ricki Lake  05:35

And you have children.

 

Lyz Lenz  05:36

And I do have children, yes.

 

Ricki Lake  05:38

yes. And you got married super young.

 

Lyz Lenz  05:42

Wow, yes and I do have children, did. So my family, I grew up, my family’s changed a lot since I grew up, but I grew up very conservative evangelical. I was homeschooled in like, the 80s and 90s. You know, before homeschooling was cool, and it was never cool, by the way, and so for me, waiting until I graduated from college to get married at 22 felt so progressive, you know, right? Yeah, in hindsight, yes, I was a child bride.

 

Ricki Lake  06:10

And so you got married at 22 I got married at 25 which is also super, super young, but the you know, I was on this hit TV show, the Ricki Lake Show at 25 and so, you know, it felt age appropriate now, looking back on it with me, I mean, who I was then and who I am now, or who I was at 35 from 25 it’s like it’s a different planet that I was living on.

 

Lyz Lenz  06:34

Well, good relationships have space for you to change and grow, right? But that’s not always the expectation. At

 

Ricki Lake  06:41

What point, like, Did it go bad for you, because you had these kids, you were super young. How long in the marriage you were married for, like, 12 years. I was married for 10 with my first husband.

 

Lyz Lenz  06:51

Yes, which is a significant amount of time.

 

Ricki Lake  06:55

For me I’d say half the length of the marriage was really blissful and beautiful. It was the second half that was really challenging. And for me it was resentment, you know, I really, really started to resent that, you know, he wasn’t sort of rising to the occasion. And I could not justify staying in a loveless marriage for the sake of the children. I didn’t want them growing up and emulating this as a healthy relationship.

 

Lyz Lenz  07:21

Yeah, you know, I’ve that thing about that careful walking the line of stories was something I heard. So I interviewed so many women for this book, and my idea was I was gonna weave all these stories into every chapter. But when I went back, so I’d done all these interviews, and when I was listening to them, I was like, I’ll use this one, this one and this one. And I went back to those women, and was like, Can I use this? And they all said, No, you can’t put my name in there because of that, because it’s so intimate, because it’s so complicated, and so that’s why in the book, I have these like little anonymous nuggets. Because I said, All right, let’s we need to tell the story, and women have to tell the truth. But telling the truth for women comes at such a high cost, right and and we are the ones punished for it, often, especially with our children, especially with our parents, especially with our partners and former partners. And so, you know, the challenge was, how do I tell the truth without throwing people under the bus. And, you know, it’s, there’s that Muriel ruckhouse, or quote, where she says, you know, if women told the real truth of their lives, the world would fall apart, you know? And that is, I think that that was something I was trying really, really hard to do. But yes, I did have a moment where I was like, I can’t do this anymore. This is it. And like you, I didn’t want my children because I grow my parents are still together. I love them.

 

Ricki Lake  08:51

Are they? Would you consider them to be in a happy marriage?

 

Lyz Lenz  08:55

No.

 

Ricki Lake  08:57

Yeah, see, that’s it. It’s like, I would not what is successful. What is successful? You know, it’s like, what’s the failure? Like, I felt like a failure too, when I walked away from the marriage and I had these two kids. But I now look at it. It really like your book, the title of your book, it’s like, you do have this freedom and this new lease on life. And I look at my chapter now that I’m living with my third husband, I mean, I never would have had this opportunity and known that this is what a healthy relationship is. This is what partnership is. Yes, this is like full unconditional love and acceptance. And yeah, it’s like a totally different animal.

 

Lyz Lenz  09:33

And sometimes you have to walk into rooms so that you know how to leave them, so that you know how to ask for what you need, so that you know how. And I think this is a terrifying thing, and I experienced this in my marriage, where I was like, I have, I want to ask for these things, but I know the answer is going to be no.

 

Ricki Lake  09:52

Give me an example of that.

 

Lyz Lenz  09:55

Well, you know, I’ll say this like we so we moved to Iowa for his. Job, you know. And then, and then we had some children, two perfect, wonderful children, you know. And then my career started to take off. I was, you know, writing and taking care of babies. And I was asking him, we need to hire sitters. We had the money, you know, but I need help. I need help with the kids. I need you to bring home dinner some nights. I need this time, and I need you to support me. And it just was never there, you know, and and so, and that’s the thing. It’s like it we’re afraid to ask for what we want, because we know the answer is no, and when the answer is no, what do you do then? And I think that’s what I wanted my kids to know too. Was like, if a place is bad for you, you can leave it. And that is success. It’s actually success to stand up for yourself and to say, I deserve better. I want better. I thought this was right at the time, and maybe it was right for a time, but it’s not a good place for me anymore, and and I wanted them to have a definition of success that wasn’t just like longevity and misery, you know, and like putting murdering yourself on settling family, yeah, I didn’t want that. I wanted them to know that the world is like a big, beautiful place. And if they ever feel like they’re in a place that’s not the place they want to be. They can go and and that had to start with me leaving too, which felt terrifying.

 

Ricki Lake  11:29

Wow, how was it telling them? And I can I ask how old they were when you made the decision?

 

Lyz Lenz  11:34

Oh, they were so little. They were, let’s see, six and thre.

 

Ricki Lake  11:40

At the time, mine were six and two.

 

Lyz Lenz  11:42

Yes, and that’s such a I will say this, we went into couples therapy, right? And, and we worked out a script. Because, you know, I’d, I’d read all the books, you know, I was like, here’s what all the advice says. It says we have to present a united front. We need to tell them these things. And I had already rented a little place, had been quietly moving things out, and then it was time to tell them. And my now ex didn’t want to tell them he was not happy.

 

Ricki Lake  12:12

So, yeah, I was gonna say he didn’t want that. If you were the one that were, he was just.

 

Lyz Lenz  12:16

He was literally, like, throwing out ideas like, what if we just for the rest of our lives, sleep in different bedrooms, like and I was like, that’s not a life, you know? And he was not happy about it. And I think that’s one of those things where it was like, telling the kids was really hard because he wouldn’t stick to the script. And he did tell them, your mom is doing this, it’s all her fault, which resulted in some emotional fallout that we we handled right and now we’re so many years out. We’re like, what, almost eight years out from that, and now the kids can see and you know, they’re like, Dad is so much happier. You know his his new wife is what he wants, and his life is what he wants, and that would not be possible if I had stayed and I mean, the same goes for me. My life is wonderful and what he wants what I want. And I think the kids can see that now, but yeah, in the beginning it was really rough. Yeah,

 

Ricki Lake  13:16

really you lived in Iowa. So you live in Iowa, that’s a no fault state, correct? Yes. So what was the process of getting divorced like for you?

 

Lyz Lenz  13:26

Yeah, so I’d read conscious uncoupling, right? I was like, let’s do this. I’m gonna be I actually now I don’t believe that’s a thing. I think, like anybody who says that was like, carrying a lot of the emotional labor for a partner.

 

Ricki Lake  13:42

Winneth Paltrow is full of shit.

 

Lyz Lenz  13:44

I just, I think she was a little bit full of shit. And I was like, is it just like having money? Like, what, what? But like, I actually there’s a sweet woman who lives a couple houses down from me who was like, Oh, we had a great, wonderful divorce. Everything was peaceful, but then I got her drunk one night on my porch on wine. And I was like, was it really? She was like, no. She was like, No, he was coming back to my house at night, like, crying and beating the door, begging me back. And I was like, yeah, that’s not conscious uncoupling, is there? But I had thought, you know, we’ll just, we’ll do it ourselves. It’ll be inexpensive, and then he wouldn’t file the paperwork. And so finally, I just, I had already consulted with a lawyer, and she was like, Girl, just file it. So we filed the paperwork. I filed it, and then we went to mediation and just kind of mediated it out. We, you know, I thank God, he likes to save money. So going to court was on the table a couple times, but I think they were just threats. So we just went to a mediator. It took about a year to hash everything out.

 

Ricki Lake  14:49

Did you keep the house? Did he keep the house? Did you sell it and move separately?

 

Lyz Lenz  14:53

Good question. Money is such a big deal in divorces, so I moved out of the house and let habit. I didn’t when we moved into that house, it wasn’t a house I wanted to move into, and so I was happy. And one of those things too, where, when I was done, I was done, I didn’t want any of that life. You know, I wanted a bed, I wanted my children. I wanted nothing else. In hindsight, I should have taken some of the pictures.

 

Ricki Lake  14:59

Did it feel fair to you? Looking back on it?

 

Lyz Lenz  14:59

I don’t care. I wanted myself. What felt fair was keeping myself. I remember going to and I knew. I knew, because I know him, that if I sat down and nickel and dimed and fought over all these little things that I would lose myself in the bitterness of the split and never find the joy on the other side. And my I remember talking to my lawyer, and one of the first things she said to me was like, picture yourself. What do you look like on the other side, when this is over.Yeah, five years from now, where do you see yourself? I had the same conversation. I don’t remember if it was my divorce attorney that I remember getting that advice.

 

Ricki Lake  14:59

Yes, and it was the best advice.

 

Lyz Lenz  14:59

And yes, I mean, there were a lot of things. I mean, there’s a lot of money I gave up and left on the table, but in the end, I’m happy about that, because money is money, but saving my own life, it felt like that was the thing I really needed to fight for.

 

Ricki Lake  16:29

Got to take a quick break, then we have way more questions for Liz Lenz.

 

Ricki Lake  16:44

At what point would you say, was it making the decision to pull the plug on the marriage or signing those divorce papers? At what point did you feel like you had yourself back?

 

Lyz Lenz  16:53

Oh, I there was a very clear moment, and it was right. It was in the middle of the divorce and the back and forth, you know. And he was still sending me emails telling me that I was ruining everybody’s lives, you know. And but there was, like, a very clear moment. I remember it was like 2am I was listening to a murder podcast, and I was like, cleaning, you know, garage sale furniture, curb furniture that I’d found, and, you know, putting together some other cheap furniture I’d bought from Ikea, and like, drinking a glass of wine and all alone with my cats, you know. And I just remember thinking, like, I’m not miserable, like I I’m so happy. And I just it was that moment in that space that I had chosen for myself, and that I was decorating for myself, that I was creating for myself, and I just remember being like, I am so happy. Nobody told me how great divorce was. You know, I had this like epiphany, like road to Damascus, kind of a moment where I felt like, at 2am, listening to that murder podcast, drinking the red wine, where, like, like a deity came out of the clouds. And was like, You’re so happy. Divorce is so great. And I was like, hell yeah, brother, this is awesome.

 

Ricki Lake  18:18

Yeah. I agree with you. I mean, for me, when my, you know, I separated, it took me about a year and a half to finalize our divorce and we were separated. I mean, it was like, Finally, guilt free time to myself, you know, because I had this custody arrangement, and he would get the kids, and it was like this, ah, I don’t have to feel guilty about being selfish. It’s not selfish. It’s actually, it’s good for me, you know.

 

Lyz Lenz  18:42

And I think, like my life, I’m the second oldest of eight kids. Grow up taking care of my siblings. Went to college. I was an RA in college, so I was taking care of other people. Immediately got married taking care of someone else. Divorce was the first time I actually had permission to be alone. And like you said, guilt free, time to just be a person. It felt like a revelation. And I wanted to go around telling everybody, like, you should all be. I think everybody should be divorced at least once. I don’t think you should be married, but I think you should be divorced, right? Like, I highly recommend it for everyone.

 

Ricki Lake  19:22

Yeah, and didn’t you say, I can’t remember who’s in the book, or you said in an interview that, like, it’s easier for a 16 year old to get married than it is for a 45 year old woman to get divorced.

 

Lyz Lenz  19:31

That’s true in America. It is easier for an underage girl to get married in almost every state than it is for, you know, a 40 something person to file for divorce, because most states do not have waiting periods for marriages. At the most, it’ll be 24 hours, 48 hours. And you know, if you’re underage, all you just need is like a little thing sign, but to get divorced, right? So many states have, like, waiting periods.  That’s true in America. It is easier for an underage girl to get married in almost every state than it is for, you know, a 40 something person to file for divorce, because most states do not have waiting periods for marriages. At the most, it’ll be 24 hours, 48 hours. And you know, if you’re underage, all you just need is like a little thing sign, but to get divorced, right? So many states have, like, waiting periods. Like,mandatory this and mandatory that, and you’ll let people rush into, you know, holy matrimony, but like, you won’t let me get out. And if you think about the prevalence, this was not, this was not the case for my marriage, but it is the case for so many women. There is a high prevalence of domestic violence, and it’s like you’re making it so hard for people to save their own lives. I think that that’s ridiculous. And there have been studies that show in countries with liberal divorce laws, that’s not America, by the way. Countries with liberal divorce laws, you see rates of domestic violence decrease. You see, kids stay in school longer, the average wage for women goes up, and marriages last longer. They last longer because it’s choice, because you’re choosing, you’re not stuck. Yes, it turns out, when you give women choices, when you give them options, they’ll want to stay in the place and and I just, I think that that’s so powerful to what it means to be able to leave.

 

Ricki Lake  21:09

Absolutely, it’s the patriarchy. It’s all their fault. Yes, the statistic is like 70% of divorces are spearheaded by the wife, yeah, and we’re talking about heterosexual marriages.

 

Lyz Lenz  21:24

Yes, 70% are initiated by the female half of the partner. I said that to somebody recently, and they were like, Well, is it just because men are too lazy to do paperwork?

 

Ricki Lake  21:37

Well, what do you think it is? Why do you think it is?

 

Lyz Lenz  21:39

I actually, I mean, there might be some of that, right, but I actually do think what it is is, you know, there’s this stereotype, right, of the divorced woman as like this, like poor, jaded person who was cheated on. But I think the reality is women are fed up, like they get fed up. And when I was doing interviews, I was talking to women, and they were like, This is the moment I knew I had to go. We were in couples therapy. We were talking about this, we were working on this, and it wasn’t working. And every man I talked to, even the ones I love and deeply respect, they were all like, I had no idea. And you’re like, Really, wow, you had no idea. And so that’s a little bit of a generalization. But what I think is women get into these places where we marry the loves of our lives, and they tell us they want equality. They want partnership, but when you’re two kids in and the daycare calls you, the kindergarten calls you, you’re the one who has to take time off, and like, your partner, who loves equality, is calling you, being like, what’s for dinner? I have a friend whose husband is literally a feminist professor, and she’s always like, he keeps asking me, what’s for dinner every night, they love each other, they’re still married. But the reality of like, the way we break down, this work, this emotional imbalance, yes, and it breaks women. And I do think there are hard conversations to be had, and the marriages that stay together are the ones where the partners are willing to not just have the conversation, but do the work. And if that’s not happening, and it doesn’t happen often, that these these women are just like, I am so fed, I’m so fed up, and I’m out of here.

 

Ricki Lake  23:26

I want to also bring up about Gray Divorce. Can you explain what that is to people listening?

 

Lyz Lenz  23:31

So this is the largest growing segment of divorce in America. So divorce rates have kind of leveled out because a lot of people are opting out of marriage altogether.

 

Ricki Lake  23:45

And why is that? Why? I’m sorry, why is that that they’re opting out?

 

Lyz Lenz  23:48

Wow, it’s so many things, right? Women are finding they’re not finding partners, and I think that marriage doesn’t always make sense with people’s lives. Women are holding on to their freedoms. You know, their studies of Gen Z, they’re like, dating is bad. Apps are bad, algorithms are bad. I also think that like this idea of the heterosexual norm, like one man, one woman, two kids, a vinyl sighted house in the suburbs with the live, laugh, love sign on it like.

 

Ricki Lake  24:20

The white picket fence, isn’t they’re not they’re not buying it anymore.

 

Lyz Lenz  24:23

Yeah, and it doesn’t make sense, because, you know, more people are saying, like, I’m bi, I’m queer, I want a different kind of a life than what makes sense. And it’s like, we have everything in our culture, from, like, tax policy to healthcare policy that pushes you into marriage. So I think it’s really powerful to say, like, despite all of those incentives, women are still choosing to keep their careers the one of the fastest growing segments of homeowners in America are single women too, and it’s because they’re like, No, I’m not gonna wait. I. I’m making my life now, and I’m not settling for a partner, just to settle for a partner. There’s also differences in like, education. Like, men are less likely now to graduate from college, women are more likely. And so those like, those kind of, like, economic indicators are diverging, and women just aren’t settling, and I think that’s really powerful. But the one area of divorce that’s growing is Gray Divorce, and it is, again, mostly initiated by women who were told because this is the story, right? Life’s hard. Kids are hard. Marriage is hard, but you just got to stick it out, because then you’ll get to the end of your life, and it’ll be great.

 

Ricki Lake  25:43

In retirement, you’re gonna be your kind of come together and fall in love again.

 

Lyz Lenz  25:47

Yes, yeah, you’ll go on a Viking river cruise.

 

Ricki Lake  25:55

Deep into each other’s eyes on the Nile.

 

Lyz Lenz  25:58

Yeah, you’ll cradle cups of coffee in your hands and fall back in love again, and it’ll be so romantic. And that is not what is happening. Women are getting to the end of their lives and or that not the end of their lives, but they’re getting to this new chapter of their lives, and they’re like, he just wants me to be a caretaker. Nothing is changing, all those trips that we were saving for, all that life, it is not happening, and I am, and I think pandemic broke a lot of people too, where it was like we could die at any minute. We are all just little fragile spiders hanging off a cliff, you know, held by that one little piece of spider web silk, and we could blow away at any minute. Life is fragile. Why wait for that Viking river cruise, and I’m gonna go on it, and I’m gonna go on it with my best friend, and I’m not gonna wait, I’m not gonna sit around and be caretaker, nursemaid. And I love that for them, and I think it is a powerful testament to the failure of the stories that we tell about love and relationships and about settling and about what success actually means. And I think this needs to be studied a little bit more. So if sociologists want to get on that, they should do that. But that’s really what’s happening, is people are getting to this next chapter of their life, waiting for this renaissance, and then realizing it’s not happening. And they’re tapping out, yeah, and they’re just like, he just wants to play golf. And then me make dinner all the time. And no, thank you. I gotta go solve a crime on the Nile. Like, you know, sorry, I’m casting it upon everyone else. I’m like, Oh my gosh.

 

Ricki Lake  27:41

Let’s take a quick break, then we’ll be back with Lyz Lenz.

 

Ricki Lake  27:57

I mean, I know so much of your life really did start after you got out of this marriage, you started doing comedy, right? Stand up comedy. So that show, the marvelous Mrs. Maisel. Do you identify with her? And that show.

 

Lyz Lenz  28:08

Okay, so that show came out after I started doing it. And it was this whole, it was a very funny thing.

 

Ricki Lake  28:15

Like art imitating life, your life.

 

Lyz Lenz  28:17

Yes, I was like, I’m not, I’m not Jewish. I’m not trying to take that on. But, like, it was so funny because one of my friends has written for the show, my friend Josh gondelman, and I was like, listen, I was Miss Maisel before. Miss Maisel was cool, but she but I, you know, I haven’t made a career out of it. It was just something I always wanted to do, and I did it, and I would, I mean, listen, you want to talk about a tough crowd. It is a basement bar at midnight in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, full of guys who work at the Quaker oat plants, and it’s like all men. And the one gay lady from Iowa City who came down and me.

 

Ricki Lake  28:59

Was it all about your divorce. What was, what were your jokes about?

 

Lyz Lenz  29:03

No, I was joking about, like, you know, I would describe it as, like, feminist mom comedy. And, you know, which, of course, like, these guys are just like, talking about their dicks.

 

Ricki Lake  29:13

Yeah, gonna say, How did it go over?

 

Lyz Lenz  29:15

Well, this was the joy. Was like, you you know this. You have to know this. It’s like, when you get in front of a room of people and you make them love you, you know, you’re like, there’s no greater power. And so I would always start off with like, jokes about being a mom, you know. And just I like, I’m just a Midwestern mom. And then I go into like, you know, jokes about dating, raunchy. And then if the crowd was ever like, Oh, what is this lady talking about her labia, I’d be like, well, you know, guys, I just listened to like, seven of the same dick jokes. You can handle a little labia or you can’t, and that’s why you’re here tonight. You know? Like, yeah.

 

Ricki Lake  29:58

What did you feel like performing for? Of them, like that first time you got on stage and had your whatever, 10 minutes. What was that like?

 

Lyz Lenz  30:04

Five minutes? Well, you know, like, I’m so type A and I practice for weeks. And then when I went up in front of the crowd one, I was like, Oh, I’m the best one here, because I’ve memorized this, you know, and I’ve put in thought, yeah, but it was also, it was like, here’s a room full of people who are not inclined to like me, who kind of hate me a little bit, but if I can make them laugh, then I’ve done something powerful. And it felt like reclaiming space, yeah, it felt like Reclaiming my voice, and it felt like Reclaiming my power, because I hadn’t, you know, especially in like patriarchy, right? Especially in a world where I grew up pretty conservative. You know, men always had the last say. Then I got into this marriage where my partner became very conservative and is now very, very conservative. And so it was like all of these things where I had felt like I’d always had to, like, subjugate and subsume and mediate.

 

Ricki Lake  31:11

And you didn’t have a voice.

 

Lyz Lenz  31:12

And I didn’t have a voice. So just being able to be in a like, being able to be in like a, you know, stale beer, smelling dank basement and Cedar Rapids Iowa, and make those guys laugh and love me that that felt like I have power here. I’m not the butt of the joke. I’m making the jokes. You know, that’s powerful.

 

Ricki Lake  31:38

It is powerful. So after your experience of of your marriage and your divorce and doing all this research, are you remarried? Will do? Would you consider remarrying?

 

Lyz Lenz  31:49

I love my house, I love my space. I love my freedom, but I also love relationships, right? I love connection, but I also am really just focusing on my oldest is going to start high school next year. She’s a big swimmer, you know. So how do I just make a space for home and family and community? I’m really involved in my community. I’m on two boards, right? I fundraise for the Iowa abortion access fund, and so I just thinking about, what does a good life look like, because you can’t control romantic relationships, right? You can’t control if those happen or not. But what I can control is the space that I build, the friendships that I have, my connections with my families and my children. And what does that look like right now, in this phase of life, you know, and what fills me and what doesn’t fill me up.

 

Ricki Lake  32:44

It doesn’t feel like it’s missing, like that piece is missing for you. Oh, you feel complete and full, and yes, you’re living your best life with or without a man.

 

Lyz Lenz  32:53

I love my life, yes, and the invitations open, right? Like I have a fun, beautiful life. You want to come be a part of that? I would love that. But so far, and I’m not trying, not trying to generalize men, but so far, what I have discovered is they want me to give it all up for them.

 

Ricki Lake  33:13

Yes.

 

Lyz Lenz  33:13

I want what Simone de Beauvoir had, you know, where it was just like freedom and thinking and your work and your life, and I have yet to find the person who sees that, who’s additive in that right, who sees it as a strength, not a weakness, you know, who doesn’t see my intelligence and my ambition as something that threatens them, right, but as something that brings them joy.

 

Ricki Lake  33:38

Absolutely. I mean, I feel like I have that I am literally the luckiest woman. I mean, I and I’m grateful for all of my marriages. You know, even my first husband, that was very contentious and very challenging. I have these two great kids from him, and they are amazing because of both of us, our DNA and what we bring to the raising and the development of these humans. And then my second husband, who, you know, tragically passed away from bipolar disorder and suicide, you know, he too, was like such a gift, so many lessons. So I learned to love myself the way he loved me. And it was such a period of self growth and self love to where I was ready to call in the person I’m with now. And I am someone, I have to say I wanted partnership, you know, like I really love sharing my life with someone, and like he is not emasculated in any way by my success, by the platform that I have, by by me, talking about him, by me, you know, he’s just, he’s just, he celebrates me, I celebrate him. You know, we have a big blended family. And I mean, I just, I feel like my divorces have been gifts, yes, and I’m so grateful for you and this conversation. And I guess if you have any sort of advice for women that are in these like, unhappy, such. Situations. What’s the nugget you would like leave with them here?

 

Lyz Lenz  35:04

Well, the first thing is, like, if you want to set me up, Ricki Lake you can do that all right now, so just keep that in the back of your mind. But yes, I think you said something very powerful. That is the advice I think I will give people, it’s like, and you know, when you’re in it, when you’re miserable, when you’re trying to hold everything together, where you’re like, I have to do this for the kids. I have to do this for other people. I my thing is, like, your happiness is worth fighting for, too, and your kids are not happy if you’re not happy, right? And I think it’s so easy in the middle of all of that to, like, put yourself up on a cross. And my thing is to say, get down. Don’t murder yourself. Get down. We need the wood. You know, we’re building a bonfire. We’re burning our wedding dresses, like, Let’s go girls. But I you know, my thing is, like, leaving is a success, and there’s so much freedom and happiness on the other side that you do not have to be afraid to go. You can drop those ropes. And that was the one thing I wanted to do with this book, was to recast this idea of the, you know, the divorce lady who’s like, so sad and just wants another man to just say, like your life is worth fighting for, your dreams are worth fighting for, and you are worth saving, and your happiness is worth it. And so that’s the advice is to say, fight for yourself no matter what that looks like. You know, if you start fighting for yourself in your marriage last great, wonderful, if it doesn’t, that’s fine. My friend Anna would said to me, you know, when I was in the middle of it and she had just gone through a divorce, and I was like, you know, well, maybe we’ll just be miserable for a couple years and they’ll be fine. And she was like, I want better for you. You’re my best friend. I want better for you. And she said, your life is not a game of chicken. You don’t have to wait for him to blink first, that you can just go. And I did, and I’ve never regretted it. And you you said, you know you felt grateful for your first husband. Leaving my first husband first, we’ll see if there’s a second, but leaving my ex made me appreciate him more, because I wasn’t resentful, I wasn’t stuck in that situation anymore. I see he’s such a good dad, you know what I mean, and that wouldn’t have happened if I’d stayed in the house and was monitoring and mediating and doing all the parenting. And I think that that is, I think that’s also a gift, that you’re able to get that space and respect people in a different way. So, yeah, so just just leave, just quit, just walk out, it’s fine.

 

Ricki Lake  37:53

I mean, I love this conversation with you. You’re awesome. I realize, like, if we live in the same city, we would be friends. You know that, right?

 

Lyz Lenz  38:01

We would have to be yes, and I would get you drunk on my porch and be like, tell me what really.

 

Ricki Lake  38:07

I would watch you paint the ceiling, because I’m not doing any of the painting, but I would watch and drink with you and be your, you know, your wine buddy. But thank you for this work, and just, I hope to talk to you again.

 

Lyz Lenz  38:20

Yes, of course. Thank you so much. I realistically, I know you’re not going to make it to Des Moines to see your friend, but.

 

Ricki Lake  38:28

If you do, if I find my way in Iowa, I’m going to reach out to you.

 

Lyz Lenz  38:30

You get lost. If your plane goes down as you’re flying.

 

Ricki Lake  38:36

It’s a deal. Thank you, Lyz.

 

Lyz Lenz  38:38

Thank you.

 

Ricki Lake  38:41

Oh, I so love that conversation. I hope you all did too. I really, truly could have talked for hours with Lyz. I hope that this was helpful for you, for any of you that are feeling like you’re at a crossroads, and ultimately, I just hope you had a good time with me. You can find Lyz Lenz on Instagram @Lyz L, Y, Z, L, E, N, Z, and make sure you check out her book, this American ex wife, how I ended my marriage and started my life. And she has a companion podcast with the same name, this American ex wife, where she interviews other women going through the messy world of divorce. Lyz also writes a regular newsletter Men Yell At Me, where she explores the intersection of politics and our bodies in red state America. Check that out at lyz.substack.com thank you all so much for listening. And guess what? There’s more of a high life with lemonade. Premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content like rapid fire questions on hair loss and wig shopping with our recent guest, Y subscribe now in Apple podcasts.

 

CREDITS  39:46

The High Life is a production of Lemonada Media. Isabella Kulkarni and Kathryn Barnes, produced our show. Our mixes by James Sparber. Executive Producers are Stephanie Wittels Wachs and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Additional Lemonada support from Rachel Neel and Steve Nelson. You can find me  @Rickilake on Instagram. Follow The High Life with Ricki Lake, wherever you get your podcasts, or listen ad free on Amazon music with your Prime membership.