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Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson knew she wanted to sit on the high court since she was a little girl. Now in her midlife, she’s made that dream come true – and she’s the first Black woman to do so. Reshma talks with her friend Justice Jackson about how to stay present while balancing it all: the kids, the marriage and the highest of high-pressure jobs. Literally, if she can manage to do it – it gives us all hope. Plus, we hear about her new love of boxing, why it’s OK to sometimes say no, and how gospel music keeps her going throughout the day.

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Transcript

SPEAKERS

Reshma Saujani, Ketanji Brown Jackson, Sender 1

Sender 1  01:24

Midlife for me, feels like more freedom than I really anticipated. I feel like I’ve had this really big vision for my life that the past 42 and a half years have been, you know, not planting a handful of seeds, but planting like enormous bags of seed. I feel like midlife is starting to see all of the fruits of that labor.

 

01:57

Welcome to My So Called Midlife, a podcast where we figure out how to stop just getting through it and start actually living it. I’m Reshma Saujani. When I think about someone in my life, a person who planted the seeds for their future, it’s today’s guest. Supreme Court Justice, Ketanji Brown Jackson. Justice Jackson is so impressive. After graduating from Harvard Law, she clerked at all three levels of the federal judiciary. She worked in private law practice. Was the vice chair and Commissioner on the US Sentencing Commission, and she served as a Federal Public Defender from the time she was a little girl, she hoped one day that she’d be appointed to the Supreme Court, and guess what? It happened in her mid life. She made her dream come true. She’s the first black woman and the first public defender to sit on the High Court. Justice Jackson is also my friend. She recently wrote a memoir, lovely one, which brought me to tears more than once in it, she’s just so honest about the obstacles she faced, and so in today’s interview, I wanted to talk to her about the love she’s invited in her life to make it possible, and how she centers kindness in literally everything she does, a kindness that is so key to helping her balance her two daughters, her career, her marriage and her health. Justice Jackson, welcome to My So Called Midlife.

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  03:30

Oh, thank you for having me. I’m delighted. How are you?

 

Reshma Saujani  03:34

I’m so good. How are you?

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  03:36

I’m good. I miss you.

 

Reshma Saujani  03:38

I miss you too. And now the term started, right?

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  03:41

It’s starting Monday.

 

Reshma Saujani  03:42

Yeah, well, thank you so much for doing this.

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  03:45

I’m delighted to do this

 

Reshma Saujani  03:46

so I don’t know about you, I got out of bed this morning and I’m like, My whole body hurts. I’m getting old, yes, and I want to know one moment last week where you really felt your age too.

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  03:59

Oh, my goodness, I’ve, I have felt my age a lot lately, with all the travel related to the book. You know, you’ve been down and you drop a pen and you can’t really get there as easily as you used to.

 

Reshma Saujani  04:16

And in the mornings, as you say, you know, I used to be a morning person. Just literally jump up out of bed like no need for an alarm. And now I’m struggling. I want to start talking about the lovely one. Yes, so the book begins with all of these incredible stories about your grandparents and your parents. And you know, as a daughter of immigrants, my parents came as refugees like I just it really resonated with me, the values, right, how you were raised, in the closeness of everyone. What’s the one thing that your parents really taught you?

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  04:55

Well, I have to say, I think it would be that I. Have a voice and that I should use it. My father went back to law school when I was little. I was three, four years old, living on the campus of the University of Miami law school with my dad across the table from me, studying in our kitchen, and my parents never really spoke to me in sort of baby talk. They always talk to me in full sentences, and I recall my dad asking me little questions about various things that he was learning, and wanting to know my opinion. And so it kind of gave me a sense from very young that I was a part of this family, that I had an opinion that I could express, and I think it really relates to the time in which I was born, relative to American history, and my parents as African Americans, they had grown up in a period of segregation, um, where their life prospects were limited by law. And I was born within five, six years of the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act and the end of segregation. And I think that my parents really saw it as a window opening, you know, the opportunities that they didn’t get to have. And so they wanted to position me to take advantage of everything, everything. And so they loved me, and they poured into me, and they trained me. And I think it was this the power of my own voice and the ability to speak out.

 

Reshma Saujani  06:46

Yeah, I love that. I and it’s there’s something about that scene of you sitting at the table, your feet barely touched the ground, your father’s studying for law. And what’s so powerful about that point, your mom at that point is the breadwinner, right? She’s supporting your dad’s dreams, and at that point, they’re in the middle of their life. Yes, they’re in their midlife, right? Yes, and their commitment to one another’s hopes, dreams, successes, it reminded me so much of you and Patrick, and what were the things that you learned watching them in their relationship that you incorporate in your relationship now.

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  07:22

Yes, well, my parents were such great partners and have been throughout their 50 plus years of marriage. And you know, Patrick’s parents have been married for a similar length of time, and I think we just got really good role models around the sacrifices and the give and take and the support that is necessary to sustain a relationship like a marriage, yeah, and it’s not always easy exactly.

 

Reshma Saujani  07:51

You have to make compromise. I want to come to that so you, you married your first love, right? Met Patrick. Wow, right? Yes, you date for seven years, and now you’re married for 28 goals. What’s your secret?

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  08:04

Oh, my goodness, you know, I think one thing is that we were really good friends early on, that we really got to know each other very well, and that helped. I think, as we started to hit those rough spots, and I think, you know, being friends with him. So on our wedding rings, we have inscribed today, I will marry my friend.

 

08:27

So beautiful. So Patrick is a surgeon, so he’s got a big job. I mean, you both have these, like, highly demanding, incredibly stressful jobs. And I’m going to ask you a question about how you don’t get angry because, and I bring that up because there’s a scene in your book you’re in labor with Tonya, right? Yes, Patrick gets paged and looks at you and says, I’ll be right back. Every minute you’re like, is this really happy?

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  08:56

So true, and I’ve not let him live that down for 20 something years, you know? I mean, I think at the beginning it was really, really hard, especially when the girls were little, and they needed so much. And he had this demanding career that required him to be away for so long. I remember when I brought that infant, baby home from the hospital, Patrick was still in residency, and it was brutal. I mean, it was really brutal. And there were times when I felt, you know, resentful and angry, but then, you know, I took a step back and understood that he was doing this in part for us, for our family, he needed to get to a point in his career where he could have more flexibility, and that was going to require him putting in the hours now. And similarly, you know, there were periods in my career where I had to really buckle down, and he was the one who supported. Did a lot of our family activity when I was clerking for the Supreme Court. For example, he would bring me lunch and dinner at the court. He would do, you know, drive me in because I was actually pregnant at the end of my clerkship. And so there, there’s definitely been a give and take, but with a mutual understanding and respect for our careers and our roles.

 

Reshma Saujani  10:21

Yeah, and I love that your book really details that I remember because I watched a movie about RBG and their relationship reminded me so much of yours, I remember like turning to my husband, like, why can’t you be more like him? Because there’s perception, right, that only one person is sacrificing to get that big job, and it’s so clear, as you describe in the book, that you’re both actually negotiating changing the pace of your career. Yes, both are right, in order to show up at home and show up for your career. How did you invite that kind of support? Because sometimes when someone is loves you like that, believes in you like that. It’s hard.

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  11:01

Yeah, I mean, it’s it. I’m not this is not to say that building a life with someone who has similar dreams and aspirations and a lot going on professionally is an easy thing, and it is hard at times to be the one who’s out in front and who is being doted on in that way.

 

Reshma Saujani  11:28

I also think it’s, you know, for some people, it’s hard to accept that kind of love. And I feel like it comes a lot from your parents too, because, yes, they loved you fiercely like that.

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  11:36

Yes, I absolutely believe that, you know, from a very, very young age, my parents were very intentional about encouraging me to do whatever I wanted to do, and I think therefore, I was more able and willing to accept that same kind of support from my partner When he came along.

 

Reshma Saujani  12:00

And attract that too.

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  12:01

Yes, exactly.

 

Reshma Saujani  12:04

Yeah, Ketanji, how do you still stay friends? I think about this and I are best friends, like he is my best friend, but like with the kids and the dog, and like, our careers is hard, it’s hard. I actually don’t know the last time we had a date night. So how do you now continue to stay best friends.

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  12:22

You know, I think you give each other grace. I think you realize that you’re going through a period of time in which these other pursuits, whether it’s you know, family or work, are going to take up an enormous amount of time. It’s sort of like the friendships that I have with some of my long time girlfriends, that we might go a couple weeks without, you know, touching base, but we know we need that not to have the pressure of having to communicate consistently, and then we just pick up where we’ve left off, when we, one of us surfaces So similarly. I mean, there you’re gonna just need to think about the fact that there are other things that you both are committed to doing and that you want to do together and not put so much pressure on yourself to continue with the date nights, you know, etc.

 

Reshma Saujani  13:17

Yeah, it’s almost like having the security and the ability to stay present. What are your tips?

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  13:25

I don’t know that I have that many tips, but you know what you just said reminds me of when I get home and I’m exhausted, and when he gets home and he’s exhausted and we’re just sitting on the couch and not feeling the pressure to have to entertain each other. That’s when we feel like we’re really close. You know, you’re close enough to me that I don’t have to, like, go through the motions of talking to you just to make sure that you still think that I like you or whatever.

 

13:56

It’s such a big thing, right? It’s why I’m I mean, it’s why I feel like I have like, five friends, because these are the friends I can go on vacation with and not talk right, like it’s like we’re just in each other’s presence, and that’s it. It’s like we’re so close that we that we have almost, like the security, yeah, it’s so yes, it’s a really important thing, I think, for young people to know about, like, the success of marriage is about just being able to just exist with one another.

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  14:19

Yes, absolutely.

 

14:21

So how, though, do you also create boundaries? You said you’re a people pleaser, and so how have you in the family created these kind of boundaries?

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  14:33

Well, we’re still working on it. It’s a work in progress. You know, I’m only this is my third year on the court, so we are trying to figure out the new shape of our lives in this way, I think what I’ve tended to do is just only agree to do things that I know are going to expose me when I am willing to be. Exposed. So in other words, you know, I get asked to do a lot of things, and I couldn’t possibly do them all, and I now am very selective, because if it’s an event that’s going to be during a court week, for example, I know I’m going to have so much energy and focus that I have to devote to my day job that I’m not going to be able to be available for the people that are talking to me during this event. So I’ll probably say, No, I pick and choose the things to try to preserve my energy, because when I’m at the thing, I know I have to be available. Yeah, and you want to be and I want to be.

 

Reshma Saujani  15:40

Absolutely, that’s really smart. That’s a really good, that’s a really good, like a really good tip, because I think that that’s it makes you almost feel better about saying, no.

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  15:50

That’s exactly right.

 

17:58

I want to talk about your girls. I was so moved reading about your beautiful daughter, Talia. And I want to read from your book. You say no upon hearing from her official diagnosis with autism spectrum disorder, you wrote, we could end our denial now. We could stop, finally resisting the shape of things, stop desperately imagining some other dream of the future, and embrace the potential of what was and I found your words so powerful. You’re talking about your daughter, but I couldn’t help thinking about the power of this mindset for so many of the challenges we face in life. Yes, can you tell me about how you came to this wisdom and what it felt like for you putting it, you know, into action?

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  19:56

Well, you know, it didn’t come easily for sure. You know one of the things I talk about in the book is all the struggles. My daughter was not diagnosed as autistic until seventh grade, and right before kindergarten, she had her first seizure that I talked about in the book. Very dramatic for us, traumatic in a lot of ways. And between, you know, kindergarten and seventh grade, there were years of trying to figure out how to support her what was going on. There were misdiagnosis. There were times where we had her tested and people said, No, she doesn’t have, you know, neurological differences. And so there were, there were many hard nights and days to try to assess how to parent this very unusual kid. And so the moment that you read what you were referencing was the exhale that came after finally getting confirmation of what we thought could be going on and the permission to recognize that this is who She is, and now we have a way forward in how to support her, how to help her, how to help her grow into her best self.

 

Reshma Saujani  21:30

Yeah.

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  21:31

All the hard times, the prior times, kept us thinking, Well, if we could just find a you know, the magic bullet, the secret sauce, then she could go on and be like we are, you know, I mean, I think the thing that happens to a parent, very naturally, is that you have this baby, this beautiful baby, and you start envisioning all the wonderful things that they are going To be and do, and many of them, at times, are patterned after you and how you were raised, right, how you were raised, and who you are. And then, if it’s not turning out like that, you start feeling like you’re doing something wrong. And I think we missed that. There’s really nothing that we can do that. She has to be who she is, and it’s not up to us to shape or frame or change her in any way.

 

Reshma Saujani  22:29

Yeah, and you say that in the book, you said you were hard on your daughter than you should have been, hard on yourself than you should have been.

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  22:34

Yes.

 

Reshma Saujani  22:35

What do you mean by that? And like, what do you wish you did differently?

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  22:38

Well, one of the things that my parents did that I think was so successful for me, was that they set high expectations and they encouraged me to achieve them. So my mother used to say, you know, I complain. I don’t want to do this. I don’t want to, you know, I can’t do this. She would say, I’m sorry. Ketanji, has this been done before? I know I love that has a person done this? If a person has done this thing, then you can do it too. And that was sort of her mindset and their mindset. And I was such a pleaser that I would work and work and work and finally achieve whatever it was. And that was my model for parenting and what I tried to do when my daughter would say, you know, I can’t do this. I’m not, you know. And she would cry and be upset, and I would say, no sweetie, you got it. You can do it, you know.

 

Reshma Saujani  23:34

Had someone else done it exactly right?

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  23:37

And I didn’t really appreciate that because of who she is, uniquely, there were things that were going to be so challenging for her that that same model of parenting was not going to work, right? I regret in a way that I didn’t see earlier, that she needed a different way.

 

Reshma Saujani  23:59

Yeah, but you did learn that you can’t parent both your child the same way.

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  24:04

That’s true, every child is different. Our daughters ended up going to different schools throughout most of their lives because they were different environments. And we have different kids, you know? And you have to let your children reveal themselves to be who they are.

 

Reshma Saujani  24:20

Yeah, and it’s so hard not to imprint. I always say, maybe God didn’t give me daughters, because it would have been so hard for her, right in my expectations, I was like, you know, two boys. I’m like, Oh, you can be whatever, you know. I mean, one of the things that you said in your book, also, I think it was so powerful. You said, If I really had understood what she was going through, I would have quit, but by the end, your daughter is thriving, like everything works out. But just imagine if you quit, we would not have you on the Supreme Court right now.

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  24:54

That’s true. I mean, it is true, but I guess I wanted to really be transparent. Is about the challenges. I mean, part of my writing all of these things, is that I hope that other parents and people who are going through similar struggles will understand that it’s not just them that you know, successful people, people who’ve gotten to do things professionally that they want to do have also been through some things and that maybe that’ll be motivation to just keep going, because you can combine a successful career with a family life and even one that has challenges.

 

25:38

Yeah, we make it so hard for women to be moms and have dreams right, to feel like you’re a devoted mother and a really great judge. You know, were there moments where you had some doubt that you just couldn’t you weren’t going to be able to do both things?

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  25:53

Oh, absolutely. You know, in the book, I talk about how many different jobs I’ve held from, you know, the moment of ending my clerkships and having my daughter, the first daughter to, you know, getting on the Supreme Court, I had, like, you know, a dozen different jobs because I was looking for the kind of work environment that would enable me to be fulfilled. But also there for my family. Early on, for example, I actually shifted to non litigation position, to doing some mediation work, which I really didn’t like that much, because it was not what I was trained to do. And I remember thinking, Oh, okay, well, that’s it, you know, this is going to be what I do for the rest of my life. Because I there was not clear what the path was to get back into the kinds of legal work that I was interested in. But, you know things work out. You know, when you work hard and you believe and you have faith, things work out.

 

Reshma Saujani  27:08

I think a lot of women still have ambitions in midlife, but they’re not sure how to get there because they’re overwhelmed by life. What advice do you have for them?

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  27:18

I think you have to hold on to that ambition. Don’t abandon it, but you do have to focus on where you are right now. It’s sort of like a two prong strategy. Know that you can get there, that it is worth continuing to think about and planning for and trying to do that long term goal, but to the extent possible, be present with the stage that you are in and try to find enjoyment where you are. You know, I used to have a placard on my wall that said, Bloom, where you are planted. And that reminded me that even though I knew I wanted to do this big thing, I’m planted here right now, and so I’m going to give it my all, where I am.

 

Reshma Saujani  28:18

That’s really powerful. There’s a scene in your book that I really resonated with, right? You’re you’re coming home from work, you’re about to do the second shift, right?

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  28:27

Yes.

 

Reshma Saujani  28:27

And you pull up into the Safeway parking lot and you just take a nap for 20 minutes. I do this through, not in a Safeway parking lot, but like, lock myself in my room. Do you still do that now? Now you’re in a lifetime appointment. You’re holding the entire country on your shoulders. Your girls are grown, but they still need you. Patrick, you know, I mean you still have your your parents. We both have aging parents. How do you still find time for yourself?

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  28:53

You know you have to make it When, when, when I’m getting overwhelmed, I try to take a few minutes and work on some crafts project that I started a long time ago and haven’t finished yet. I’ll do a row crochet. You know, I like the early mornings. I’m actually a morning person, and so I’ll set my clock a little bit early actually, and allow me to have the quiet of the morning. And I hired a boxing trainer, which I highly recommend.

 

Reshma Saujani  29:31

You tell me about this. Tell me more.

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  29:33

Well, no, I mean, you have to stay physically fit. I feel like so much of one’s ability to deal with the pressures psychologically and emotionally also is connected to your physical stamina. Are you boxing every day?

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  29:53

No, once a week he comes to the court.

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  29:55

Oh, I love it. He comes.

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  29:57

The court, there’s a yes, I don’t. Ring. It’s a it’s our gym. We reserve the gym for an hour.

 

Reshma Saujani  30:07

Oh, my God, that’s incredible. Is it hard to be in a lifetime appointment?

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  30:11

You know, it isn’t. I mean, it’s, it’s sort of, it’s both liberating and confining at the same time, in a way. Because

 

Reshma Saujani  30:20

Tell me what, how those two things fit.

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  30:23

It’s liberating, because you can decide what you think is right, do what you think is right, and not worry about your, you know, job or fortunes or whatever. When I think that’s sort of the point of having lifetime appointments, it’s confining, because especially this job, there’s really no next step for you as a justice. And so I’m used to kind of having a job and moving on after three or four years, and so kind of knowing that this is it.

 

Reshma Saujani  30:59

No, we’re not, you’re not allowed to leave.

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  31:02

Knowing that this is it. You know, is a little it feels like the walls can close in pretty quickly in that way. But it’s important to continue to do the work and to know that you’re making progress, even even in in a position like

 

Reshma Saujani  31:19

this. It’s like midlife, liberating and confining.

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  31:22

Yes, exactly.

 

Reshma Saujani  31:24

Good metaphor for midlife.

 

Reshma Saujani  33:54

For people don’t know. Ketanji, you are so kind.

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  33:58

Oh, my goodness.

 

Reshma Saujani  33:59

You are, so we met on a board. I’ll never forget I was so nervous, and you, you saved me a seat. It was like and made me feel like you have been waiting for me, right? And it did. It was, I’ll never forget it. And I, you know, and I feel like you are like that in your life. I know you are like that in your life, and it’s hard when you’re juggling all these things, to Yeah, to remember, to kind of lead with kindness and to show up for others. How do you do that?

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  34:28

Yeah, well, you know, I think, I think that kindness is a function of humility. And in the book, I talk about when I was very young, learning some lessons in humility that have stuck with me, that, you know, I really do know and believe that there but for the grace of God, go I that I have the things that I have, and I’m in the position that I’m in, you know. Yes because of my hard work, but also because of great good fortune and favor and blessings, yes and so with that mindset, I feel the need to be kind to the people that I interact with, and I think it’s really important, especially when you’re talking about people with whom you work, people who you regularly interact with. Kindness is crucial. I also tell a story in the book of a speech that was given my college graduation that was so powerful to me that I remember it even to this day. The basic story that was told in the speech was about a man who’d become a very prominent Demolition Expert, and he was flying first class everywhere, and as it turned out, he never learned to read, and so he was sitting on the plane and asking his seat mate to read the menu, to tell him what was on it. And he ended up explaining that years before, he had gone to a community college and said, I’d like to learn how to read this one. He was maybe in his 30s, and the woman at the front desk laughed and said, You must be kidding. And he was so humiliated that he turned and left and never went back and never tried to actually get any formal training in reading. And the person who told the speech said, you know, that the title of the speech was no insignificant words that if that woman had just said fantastic, it would have changed this man’s life forever. And so he was explaining that as college students, we had the responsibility now to understand that our words were significant, that they meant things to other people and to be kind to the people that we interacted with. And I’ve never forgotten.

 

Reshma Saujani  37:11

I’m never going to forget this. That’s such an important thing, I think, to teach ourselves and our children. So I want to talk about God. I think that’s a lot of what brought you and I together, and I think connected. It’s a big theme in your life. It’s a big theme in my life, and it’s a lot about, I think, how we probably both find peace. I have gotten into this practice with a family where we try to pray together every night. I start my mornings. You know, we have our in Hinduism. You have your version of kind of gospel music. It’s, it’s called bhajans, and my parents used to listen to it, you know, in the morning or in the car. So, like, I’ve lately started that that practice too, which has been so soothing. What are some practices you employ?

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  37:57

Well, I do. I listen to gospel a fair amount. Actually, I have a playlist that I get on the treadmill too, and then it runs in my head, you know, throughout the day, little phrases and refrains. You know, at times we have done a practice that a friend of mine does, which is really focus on what you’re thankful for, not just at Thanksgiving time, but you know at other times, and articulating that, because I think that really helps to center the higher being that is in our lives.

 

Reshma Saujani  38:42

Oh, I love that. That’s beautiful. So you wrote, there were a few people who really knew about your dream to be supreme court justice. Why’d you keep it a secret?

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  38:52

Oh, my goodness, it’s the kind of thing you can’t really walk around saying you want to do. I mean, it’s really like being struck by lightning. So you certainly, you know, and I think, too, that when you have a big dream, if you articulate it, there’s always the fear of failure. You know, if people know that this is something you’re shooting for, and then you don’t make it’s you’re very exposed in a way that I think I was afraid of. So if I didn’t tell anybody, and then I didn’t do it, then fine. Now I will say I did say in my college yearbook or my high school yearbook that I wanted to be a federal judge, yep, and I think I got that idea because I had been introduced to Constance Baker Motley. Can you tell everybody who she is? Constance Baker Motley was the first federal female African American judge, and she was a civil rights lawyer before she became a judge, and also was. In New York City politics for a bit, but where she was most well known as she represented a number of civil rights figures during the Thurgood Marshall era, and helped to craft the strategy for Brown versus the Board, and was just brilliant. She also was the first African American woman to argue before the Supreme Court, she argued something like 10 cases and won nine of them, so she was just incredible. And she happens to be my birthday twin, but it’s interesting because she was born 49 years to the day before me, and the difference in our career prospects, ultimately, just because of that, time difference is striking. You know, I have no doubt that she could have been on the Supreme Court, that she would have been an excellent justice, but she was born in a time where that wasn’t possible for women, not to mention black women, and so I just feel so grateful and so fortunate to follow in her footsteps in this way.

 

Reshma Saujani  41:12

Yeah, your book took me in a lot of a lot of emotional ways. I feel like I’m gonna cry now. It was so powerful, and I was trying to figure out, like, what’s creating this emotion inside of me? And I think it was this feeling of hope, but it was also this feeling that you were able to get here, and yes, you face struggle, yes, you face challenges, but the world also collided for you, that the message is also for women, it doesn’t have to be this hard all the time. And then when it when it works out, you it feels different. Like you were saying that when you got the call, it was almost like you heard the ocean. It was like you heard love. You heard God, right? It was joy, because your your journey was joyful.

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  42:02

Yes, no. I mean, it’s it you said it better than I could I my grandmother used to say when I was very young, that I was a blessed child. And I’ve carried that both in my head and in my heart throughout my life, because I feel that. I feel grateful for the opportunities that I have, and that gratitude helps me to get through the hard times. She used to also say that to whom much is given, much is required, and so the hard times were the requirement for the joy that I feel about getting to serve the American people in this way, getting to be the mom of two incredible kids and being in this life.

 

Reshma Saujani  42:55

So I want to close up here. Um, you did, right? You had two dreams. Yes, it was to be the first black female Supreme Court Justice on Broadway.

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  43:08

That’s true.

 

Reshma Saujani  43:09

So when are we going to Broadway?

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  43:12

You know, I’m available if someone has a plane and they.

 

Reshma Saujani  43:15

Was like someone is listening right now.

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  43:22

No, I love acting. I did a lot of it early on. I try to get to the theater as much as I can. So yes, I’m willing to entertain all scripts.

 

Reshma Saujani  43:34

Okay, so you’re still keeping this dream, right?

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  43:37

Yes, absolutely.

 

Reshma Saujani  43:40

I love it, so it’s like, because, you know it’s true, like, in midlife, you still need the thing, like, especially when you’ve already gotten there, right.

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  43:46

Exactly.

 

Reshma Saujani  43:47

All right, so that’s our mission community is to get Justice in Broadway. This was so wonderful. Thank you. Thank you for doing well. Thank you for being on the pod, and thank you, thank you for this book.

 

Ketanji Brown Jackson  44:04

Oh, well, I’m just so delighted that you liked it, that you are liked it, recommending it. It was a labor of love, and I’m glad that that shows.

 

Reshma Saujani  44:30

Okay, mid lifers, the first thing you must do after listening to this interview is go read justice Jackson’s book. Ah, it gave me all the feels, so much hope, so much light. In this interview, it gave me some really great takeaways on how to really live my mid life. Number one, lead with kindness, always. Number two, being kind doesn’t mean you have to give up your boundaries setting time for. Yourself is maybe the best thing you can do to truly be present and genuinely show up for others. And third, if you’ve got a dream, even if it’s as big as Broadway, don’t ever give up on it. Bloom where you are planted, and the fruits of your labor will eventually pay off. Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson is a Supreme Court justice and the author of Lovely One, her book is out now, so make sure you grab a copy wherever you buy your books. All right, that’s it for our show. See you all next week, bye.

 

CREDITS 45:40

There’s more of My So Called Midlife with Lemonada Premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content like midlife advice that didn’t make it into the show. Subscribe now in Apple podcast, I’m your host, Reshma Saujani, our producer is Claire Jones, this series is sound designed by Ivan Kuraev. Our theme was composed by Ivan Kuraev and performed by Ryan Jewell, Ivan Kuraev and Karen […]. Additional music by APM music. Our senior supervising producer is Kristen Lepore. Our VP of new content is Rachel Neel. Executive Producers include me, Reshma Saujani, Stephanie Wittels Wachs and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Series consulting and production support from Katie Cordova. Help others find our show by leaving us a rating and writing a review and let us know how you’re doing in midlife. You can submit your story to be included in this show at speakpipe.com/midlife follow My So Called Midlife, wherever you get your podcast, or listen ad free on Amazon music with your Prime membership. Thanks for listening, see you next week, bye.