Overcoming Childhood Trauma
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Description
This week we’re talking about ACEs – aka – Adverse Childhood Experiences. How do you move forward when there’s a lot of pain in your past? And how are you supposed to open up when you were raised not to air your dirty laundry?? We’re joined by WNBA superstar Chamique Holdsclaw who dealt with her parents addiction early on and Music Industry Exec Mike Heyliger who talks about navigating his LGBTQ identity in an abusive home. We also speak with our favorite mental health and addiction expert, Dr. Nzinga Harrison, and The Trevor Project’s Michele Giordano about trauma and the affordability barrier disproportionately facing Black LGBTQ+ youth when seeking mental health care.
Season 2 of Last Day is created in partnership with The Jed Foundation. The Jed Foundation (JED) empowers teens and young adults with the skills and support to grow into healthy, thriving adults. You can find tips, tools and resources for taking care of your emotional health available at: www.jedcares.org/lastday
Resources from the episode:
- This episode features three amazing podcasters, linked below:
- Hear Mike’s musings about toxic masculinity on Detoxicity
- Listen to Chamique and other famous pro athletes discuss mental health on Tremendous Upside
- Learn about mental health and addiction on Nzinga’s In Recovery, another Lemonada original
- Read more about the Trevor Project’s research on suicidology within the LGBTQ+ community, and check out additional ways to get help if you’re in need of someone to talk to.
- Ring the Alarm: The Crisis of Black Youth Suicide in America
- BIPOC mental health resources from the Mental Health Coalition and SELF Magazine
- LGBTQ+ mental health resources
If you or someone you know is struggling emotionally or feeling hopeless, it’s important to talk to someone about it now. Contact one of the resources below for a free, confidential conversation with a trained counselor anytime.
National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
Crisis Text line: Text “Connect” to 741-741
The Trevor Project: 1-866-488-7386
To follow along with a transcript and/or take notes for friends and family, go to https://lemonadamedia.com/show/last-day shortly after the air date.
Stay up to date with us on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram at @LemonadaMedia.
Transcription
SPEAKERS
Michele Giordano, Chamique Holdsclaw, Mike Heyliger, Basketball Announcer, Dr. Nzinga Harrison, Stephanie Wittels Wachs, Woman on TV
Stephanie Wittels Wachs 00:00
If you are just tuning in, I encourage you to go back and start listening from Episode One, it’ll make more sense. As for what you’ll hear today, we have worked hard to ensure that our storytelling around suicide is as safe as possible. But we can’t address this issue by tiptoeing around it. Instead of warning, who should and shouldn’t listen before each episode, we want to encourage you to press pause, if and when you need to. We’ll be here when you’re ready to press play.
Mike Heyliger
I feel like I have always sort of had like a sad streak.
Chamique Holdsclaw
It was a lot of the emotional stuff just going on in our household.
Mike Heyliger
I didn’t know how to articulate it. I didn’t know what the words were depression and mental illness in general wasn’t something that was discussed in my house growing up, and it wasn’t even discussed in school growing up. I mean, this was the early 90s.
Chamique Holdsclaw
It was very uncomfortable. Because, you know, growing up in a household, you know, what happens in this house stays in this house. That’s what I would constantly hear.
Mike Heyliger
From the family. It was like, you know, don’t go telling any outsiders about what happens in his house.
Chamique Holdsclaw
I was drowning, and you know, it’s like bricks, bricks on my back, pushing me down, no matter, you know, what I could do, like I tried it, you can’t snap out of it.
Mike Heyliger
And I was like, Okay, this is sort of go time. Because if I don’t get help, this isn’t gonna end well.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
This is Mike Heyliger, and Chamique Holdsclaw. These two don’t actually know each other. Mike’s a self-identified nerd working in the music industry should make was a jock, by which I mean a WNBA all-star. But there’s lots of overlap in their stories, hence, our fancy podcast trick of weaving them together and underscoring it with emotional music. They’re both native New Yorkers who have podcasts and do advocacy work with the JED Foundation. And they both had it pretty rough growing up, but received nearly identical messages when it came to spilling the family secrets. This household dynamic may be familiar to a lot of you. But it’s important to mention in a show about mental health, that there aren’t just personal barriers to treatment, there are cultural ones. And it can be especially complicated in black and POC households in this country. Because on top of all the universal reasons why it’s uncomfortable to air, your dirty laundry, add the weight of historical abuse and racial disparities within the medical community. And you end up with a healthy dose of mistrust and health care providers.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs 02:43
That mistrust is just one item on a long list of factors that has led to a growing crisis. The rate of suicide death amongst black youth is increasing faster than that of any other racial or ethnic group in the United States. Black children under the age of 13, are twice as likely as white kids to die by suicide. Meanwhile, they are significantly less likely to receive mental health care. So what are the risk factors driving this problem? And what do we need to do to protect these kids?
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
I’m Stephanie Wittels Wachs, and this is LAST DAY.
Chamique Holdsclaw
I was born into a loving environment. My mom at the time was 19. And my dad was 22. So they were fairly young, you know, trying to figure things out.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
Chamique Holdsclaw was born in a storey in New York in 1977.
Chamique Holdsclaw
I came and then three years later, I had a brother Davon. But being young parents, you know, my mom, she was still trying to figure it out. She started drinking, you know, to kind of cope with things. And at the time, see, I always thought my mom was just like a drinker, you kind of get used to that, you know, dynamic, you know, you know that they love you. But even though it’s kind of dysfunctional now, and I look back that was you know, our environment. So, as a young kid, you just get used to that, you know, if my mom has passed out drinking or something, you know, I know all right.
Chamique Holdsclaw 04:19
You know, we have to eat, she may not cook, let me take some money out of her purse. I’m in New York City. So there’s like stores everywhere. A lot of times, that’s what happened. My dad had to go to work and we figured out how to survive for ourselves. If you would have told me you know, at the age of seven, six that that was dysfunctional, I’m like, no.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
Kids will accept whatever you put in front of them as normal, and will adapt to get by. But that didn’t fly for very long.
Chamique Holdsclaw
My mom didn’t come home one night, and my dad had to go to work and you know, he left us at a neighbor’s house. Long story short, he comes home from work and he wants to cook for us. And while he’s cooking, I guess he’s having some drinks or whatever. And, you know, I go back upstairs, he told me to come back in an hour. And I’m banging on a door. And he’s not answering. I could hear the music playing, I could smell the food. I know he’s in there. And banging and one of the neighbors must have called the police because next thing I hear are like the walkie talkies coming from around the corner. And this is when we lived in Jamaica, New York. And I just remember them opening a door and they’re like, Oh, my God, my dad’s passed out drunk, the music, this plan, the food is on the stove, almost cooking. And I remembered him saying that the kids cannot stay here. This household is dysfunctional.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
They took the kids and brought them to a police station down the street, where they sat as officers and social workers shuffled all around them. Chamique was the oldest. So she got all the questions. “How often do your parents drink? Do they hate you? Is their abuse?” And she’s sitting there with her little brother on her lap saying, “No, no, no, our parents love us.” It was confusing and uncomfortable. After a while, there grandma June shows up and it’s like the clouds part and the sun comes out. Even on our call. The second she started talking about June, Chamique’s face lit up.
Chamique Holdsclaw 06:27
Oh my grandmother, June was just the kindness and most awesome a woman very, very spiritual.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
Once grandma June arrived, Chamique didn’t have to play the role of surrogate parent anymore. June talked to everyone smooths everything out. And it was decided the kids could go home with her. And that’s where they stayed while their parents went through rehabilitation. It was a tough transition at first, totally different environment. But her grandmother showered her and her brother with an endless supply of love and attention.
Chamique Holdsclaw
She just supported me in the classroom, she supported me in activity of sports. I mean, she was always a presence in my life. And I think that allowed me to really grow and get confidence because I was going through so much.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
Things were better, which felt good, but also kind of bad.
Chamique Holdsclaw
I went through a really difficult time adjusting because again, here I am, you know, one environment, I have my friends and things are going well in school. Now here I am in the inner city. I’m the new kid. I’m getting teased. I’m getting bullied, had fights. I’ve never had fights before because you have to learn to defend yourself. I hated it. I would have these temper tantrums, you know, where I was just what my grandmother asked me what was going on. And I was just like, tear up my room. I was so frustrated. I was angry with my parents because I didn’t understand at that time that they really had an illness. I’m just like, why can’t they get better?
Stephanie Wittels Wachs 08:14
At that point, every bad experience felt like it was her parents fault. Like, they were intentionally choosing their lifestyle over her. She was mad at them. But she also wanted them back. Meanwhile, grandma June did all she could to make Chamique and her brother feel at home.
Chamique Holdsclaw
I remember the one of the most interesting things and I look back is the time she’s like, okay, you know, what color do you want to paint your room? And I was like black. And she looked at me and she’s like, Okay, and so, you know, she would take me shopping, you know, let me pick out my clothes. You know, I’m 11 years old at this time, What colors do you want? It was all dark colored stuff, because that’s how I felt inside. And she sat me down. And she said, Chamique you know, something’s not right. I know you’re having a hard time you having a temper tantrum. And this is something that you can’t do out there in those streets, because people are out there and not as forgiving. You know, I worry about you. And I want you to go talk to someone. So my grandmother got me involved in therapy. She got me to go to Alateen and it was a program that her and a social worker talked about for kids who have parents or relatives that have alcohol issues.
Chamique Holdsclaw
And so that helped me realize that my parents did love me. They just had an illness because I’m like, they hate me. They hate me, you know, when they would get their breaks. You know, imagine being the kid when they’re going through the programs and they have like the outpatient part of it and they’re staying at the facility, what they can come meet you for maybe like an hour or two and then imagine being the kid that’s waiting and waiting. And my grandma’s like, okay, there’s, you know, your mom’s gonna come get you and they never show up, you know, the frustration and the anger that I had. So I had to go through that point to the Alateen helped me realize that you know what, they’re healing, they’re going through this process, that doesn’t mean they don’t love me. So I’m glad that I was given that gift.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs 10:26
Alateen put Chamique in a room with people who got what she was going through. And that changed the way she looked at her parents addiction. But it didn’t change the way she felt about talking about it.
Chamique Holdsclaw
Stephanie, it was very uncomfortable. Because, you know, growing up in a household, you know, what happens in this house stays in this house, that’s what I would constantly hear. And you know, you don’t tell your business out there. And now here I am, you know, in an area that is largely African-American and Hispanic. And I go up to the community center for therapy, and here’s the guy has the nerf basketball hoop, he wants to shoot me, you know, I don’t feel connection here is this Caucasian male college age maybe, you know, trying to get me to talk about my mom, my dad, my deepest feelings. And at that young age, that’s when I learned to kind of put that wall up, you know, I’m not talking to him, I learned to mask and I, and you know, he had the nerf hoop I was shooting, I’m like, oh, everything’s okay. You want to talk about your mom and dad? Oh, they’re getting help, just very short, you know, and to just kind of like, get him off my back. And, you know, therapy attended, but I didn’t feel like it was really helping me it was more at that time, irritating me.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
Here’s the thing about therapy, it can be great, you know, I am all in for it. But not all therapy is created equal. When they do decide to pursue mental health treatment, black patients, on average, tend to receive poor quality of care compared to white patients. And if that sounds like a generalization research reflects all the factors that add up to that outcome, some are obvious provider unconscious bias, lack of representation, and mental health care. But motivation to get treatment also plays an interesting role. Chamique walking in to find a therapist who felt more like the scary social workers and less like anyone she knew and trusted, triggered a defense response, the nerf ball came out and the walls went up. And that natural reaction can itself stand in the way of therapy being effective. Research shows that when clients don’t engage, therapists are less responsive and don’t develop a bond that leads to a better level of care. So Chamique, waited off the clock, and brought her pain back home with her.
Chamique Holdsclaw
I would get really angry, and I heard my grandmother say that the temper tantrums and I would have those and that meant that I was really upset and I couldn’t control it. You know, that was what I identify mental health with, you know, I just would get this rage inside of me. And I would just want to throw things or tear up my room. And, you know, in another side is that I remember I was just like, throw everything everywhere. And then my grandmother came in one day and she goes, you know, wouldn’t you rather talk? Because at the end of the day, you have to clean it up. It was like I you know; I laugh about it. But then that allowed my grandmother when I was like, yeah, you know, I’m young and you’re right. And just to sit there with her. And that’s when we became even closer because she would try to help me talk to my feelings. But again, that’s something that you know, we were learning together.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
Grandma June was Chamique’s safe place mother figure and therapist all rolled into one. And in many ways it was working. She was thriving. She led her High School’s basketball team to four straight New York State Championships and was named the High School All American by the Women’s Basketball Coaches Association, which is obviously amazing. But it also reinforced some pretty unhealthy coping mechanisms.
Chamique Holdsclaw 14:26
Sports had always worked but the issue you know the trauma that I experienced the chemical imbalances always been there you know even in when I was younger playing sports you know, I have those angry moments and those outbursts, but I was good. I was always coached rug, it’s gonna be okay. You’re great. You know, you’re a good student, your star athlete. It’s like everybody’s there to kind of like coddle you. So I never really had to get the emotional help that I needed. In a sense, you know, the, you know, therapy makes me feel uncomfortable. You know, I’m okay. I’m okay. Everybody believes you’re okay. Instead of saying, you know, this is something you have to stick with.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
Chamique was a phenomenon.
Basketball Announcer
From the streets of New York to the hills of Tennessee, there has been one constant in Chamique Holdsclaw light, championships.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
Throughout her career, she was repeatedly compared to Michael Jordan.
Basketball Announcer
She is just a junior. She is built by some as the greatest number to play the game in college
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
She was the number one pick in the 1999 WNBA Draft.
Woman on TV
The Washington Mystics have selected Chamique Holdsclaw from the University of Tennessee.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
And went on to be named Rookie Of The Year.
Basketball Announcer
Chamique Holdsclaw of the Washington Mystics and the WNBA Rookie Of the Year, last season.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
Then she won a gold medal with Team USA at the 2000 Olympic Games in Sydney. I mean, you could say she was doing pretty okay for herself. But as we’ve heard countless times this season, you can’t outrun your trauma. Chamique wasn’t dealing with her ACES. And if you’re unfamiliar with that, here’s our friend, Dr. Nzinga Harrison.
Dr. Nzinga Harrison 16:12
ACES stands for Adverse Childhood Experiences, A C E, and the S is just plural, so more than one ace. And it basically is the study that was done that showed there are these 10 things that can happen to people during childhood that literally predict your risk for developing chronic medical conditions later in life. So like having a parent, go to prison, or abuse or neglect. And you get one point for every single one of those 10 things that you experienced during childhood, and a score of four or more predicts in adulthood. Depression, anxiety, diabetes, obesity, smoking, preterm labor, and delivery, like literally every chronic conditions you could think of. And so when you hear aces is referring to adverse childhood experiences,
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
ACES are common. According to the CDC, about 61% of adults reported that they had experienced at least one Ace, and nearly one in six reported experiencing four or more. And when you compare those numbers to the amount of people dealing with addiction, and mental illness in our country, you have to ask, is that just because we have more people genetically predisposed to it? Or is it because we have more people walking around with trauma?
Dr. Nzinga Harrison
So this is the nature versus nurture question. And the answer to that is always, yes. So biologically, Adverse Childhood Experiences change the development of your brain physiology and your body physiology, psychologically, aces change, the view that you develop of the world in terms of safety and danger, socially, higher aces score, are associated with higher stress, more unstable environments. And so this is what the aces is measuring. And so they’re affecting it from both sides causing it and reacting to it.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs 18:17
Essentially, stress creates stress. Of course, this spiral effect doesn’t happen automatically. If you’ve checked the box for one ACE, it’s more of a snowball effect.
Dr. Nzinga Harrison
You’re adding things up. And so your physiology doesn’t forget. So let’s say a child who is experiencing abuse, the brain physiology is changing, the body physiology is changing. And so the next time they have an experience that triggers that biological response, it codes that biology and physiology, it also codes that psychology.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
Which determines how we react to anything and everything around us. It’s really just one big cycle that starts in childhood and then seeps into every aspect of our lives and our children’s lives and their children’s lives moving forward. So understanding a person’s ACES can definitely help diagnose a problem, but it also contains clues on how to tailor the treatment.
Dr. Nzinga Harrison
Biologically, your ACES scores four, the chance that you have a major depressive disorder or mood disorder or anxiety disorder is significant. I have to proactively look for that and be thinking about a plan for that, psychologically. Your ACES score is six. There is no way you don’t have a worldview that feels dangerous. And so in therapy, we need to be working through that feeling of danger because that’ll trigger risk too.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
But Chamique wasn’t in therapy working through her ACES. She was on the court with grandma June cheering her on, on the sidelines. When we come back, we meet Mike, who was dealing with some ACES of his own.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs 20:14
We’re back and ready to meet the other voice. You heard up top. Mike Heyliger who like Chamique discovered his passion really early on.
Mike Heyliger
I loved music, like loved music. I mean, I was buying records from the time I was like seven years old. So music was sort of like my safe haven, my solace, like all of that stuff. I used to draw a lot. And I would draw pictures of like Michael Jackson and Prince because those were the people I kind of idolized at the time. And I would have to like, hide the pictures. Because if they were found, and you know, my mom was kind of notorious for snooping around my room and discovering things, I would end up getting hit, you know, when my stepfather came home from his job.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
Before he was eight, Mike lived in Brooklyn with his grandma, in a house with aunts and uncles and cousins, but then he moved to Michigan with his mom and stepfather.
Mike Heyliger
We had a bunk bed, and I would have to hold like the top railing of the bunk bed and just like stay there still, while my stepfather hit me with the belt, like, you know, one time for each year that I was alive, so it was like 9 or 10 times. And if I moved, I would get hit and extra time.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
The thing is, Mike notice that his younger siblings weren’t being treated the same way. This kind of punishment was reserved for him.
Mike Heyliger
I think there was a sense that he was toughening me up to be a man like he felt that I was soft. And I don’t know if my mom and my stepdad thought there were like any indications of queerness. But I do in retrospect, wonder if they were maybe trying to like beat the gay out of me somehow.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
It is so painful to imagine Mike growing up in this household. And it’s unclear if his mom and stepdad had any idea early on that he was gay, even now, it’s something that’s understood, but not talked about with his parents. Back then he didn’t have the language, but he knew he was different.
Mike Heyliger 22:15
I don’t think I even knew what gay was until I was like eight or nine years old. And, you know, I was being called, like, you know, fag as a pejorative. I hate that part of me, for a very, very long time. And queer people or queer men in particular, were just like not discussed. They were always talked about with scorn. And, you know, I also look at, you know, outside my family, look at the times that I grew up in, you know, when I was figuring out my sexuality, it was the early 90s. And there were no, no gay or bi men in the public eye. You know, I mean, they had like Elton John, and that was it. And, you know, Elton John’s 30 years older than me, he’s not any in, you know, he’s rich, and white and British. So there was nobody that I could I could really look to,
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
there’s that, there’s that.
Mike Heyliger
In terms of relatability, and also just the HIV stigma, particularly in New York City was so heavy in the late 80s and early 90s. I just, you know, I think during that era, as a black man, I was taught that there was a very good chance, I would end up being a statistic. And as a queer man, there was a, you know, I was taught that I would most likely become a statistic. So I just kind of assumed that becoming a statistic was inevitable. For a lot of until I was, until I figured out otherwise, on my own pretty much.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
Do you think that had it been something that was made to feel like, not shameful? You know, I know, you talk about this fear that you were going to have HIV and this preoccupation with that, you know, it seems like such a source of shame. What do you think could have altered that experience for you?
Mike Heyliger 24:12
Being around people who indicated that it would be okay. I mean, I think it’s as simple as that.
Michele Giordano
One of the most powerful pieces of research that I always really hold on to is that one person can have such a huge impact on the life of a young person, especially if that person is LGBTQ affirming, and they can be there for a young person.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
That’s Michel Giordano, Vice President of Digital Crisis Services at the Trevor Project. I’m sure you’ve heard of them. They are a nonprofit organization that provides 24/7 support to the LGBTQ community through phone, text and chat.
Michele Giordano
We know that a lot of the young people that reach out to the Trevor Project feel like they don’t have anyone else in their lives offering affirming support, really meeting them where they’re at. Young people can often feel like there isn’t the right support for them. You know, they don’t have that access to, you know, ask for mental health support to their family or to their friends. And we are that plays for young LGBTQ young people who may not see that anywhere else in their life.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
Trevor is also a go to source for reliable research on LGBTQ youth mental health. According to their 2020 national survey, which is just designed so beautifully, please check it out. 40% of respondents seriously considered attempting suicide in the past 12 months 40% nearly half reported engaging in self-harm, including over 60% of transgender and non-binary youth. These numbers are so upsetting, and it is easy to draw the wrong conclusion from them if you don’t have more context.
Michele Giordano 26:00
I mean, one of the things that I actually didn’t know that was a myth out there that I have really come to understand is something that we need to work against is the misconception that LGBTQ youth are inherently prone to suicide, because of their sexual orientation or gender identity. I really didn’t think that, that was a common theme that people sort of held as a belief, and really understanding that that is something we have to work against and really help society and culture understand that LGBTQ youth are at higher risk because of increased experiences of victimization, I think is really important. Because it you know, it speaks to the fact that if we affirm young people, and really give them the support that they need in their lives, that actually they won’t be at risk for suicide, and that, you know, when they’re experiencing discrimination and rejection and stigma and violence that is, that is what’s compounding the negative mental health outcomes.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
Right. Mike wasn’t born feeling shame about being gay. He picked that up from the people around him. Even when he escaped from the physical abuse of his mom’s house. his grandmother’s house was in a neighborhood that was tough on him. He remember getting mugged in broad daylight when he was 11 years old. He didn’t have more than $1 on him, but he was an easy target. A recent survey reported 67% of black LGBTQ youth have been verbally abused because of their identity. 30% have been physically threatened, and 90% have experienced racial discrimination.
Michele Giordano
We know that as young people are facing mental health challenges, that crosses every section of their identity, and of course, every which way they feel marginalized. So taking an intersectional approach allows us to really look at an individual’s identity and young person’s identity, and what are the unique risk factors for anxiety, depression and suicide? And how can we use that intersectional lens to better understand their challenges, and their systemic barriers that they’re facing in their community, and their families and in their lives, and then be able to help them navigate those solutions based on the intersectional identity that they’re sharing with us.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs 28:19
In many ways, our personality is defined by all the different pieces of our identity and the way the world around us responds to that identity. I mean, Chamique is also queer, but her LGBTQ status wasn’t a big part of her origin story, the way she tells it. That might be because she had such a loving, affirming adult in her life. Her pain stemmed from the abandonment she experienced with her parents drinking, Mike was dealing with deep self-loathing, a lot of which revolved around his queerness or the way he was treated for just being himself.
Mike Heyliger
You know, I mean, I’d like to think that at least for the first couple of years, I was a pretty, pretty normal kid. You know, I think the, you know, the switching homes and the abuse and all that stuff sort of turned me into a very odd kind of pre-adolescent and adolescent.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
Mike’s struggle started really early, but he shared a lot of the same barriers to treatment that Chamique had encountered.
Mike Heyliger
There was certainly a stigma related to seeing someone like a therapist. And, you know, the other thing was that I just didn’t have the money or the resources to do that.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
Affordability continues to be the biggest barriers standing in the way of black and LGBTQ youth getting treatment. Nearly half of the respondents and the Trevor survey said they wanted counseling, but didn’t get it due to costs and concerns about parental permission. Mike didn’t get therapy until he was 30.
Mike Heyliger
I just had like a really, really bad patch. Every part of my life just felt like it was not in a place that I wanted it to be. You know, I had a friend who was very open about his experiences being in therapy. And I was like, you know, I’m going to call this guy and I’m going to get some information, and I’m going to find a therapist and figure out how to pay for it. And because if I don’t get help, this isn’t going to end well. And that was really kind of a long and short of it. It was me, me wanting to make my life better. And not feeling like I could go any lower. And I you know, therapy, I don’t say this lightly, like therapy saved my life.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs 30:54
We are back.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
When we left off with Chamique, she was on her way to being one of the most influential female basketball players of all time. Was her future looking bright? Yes. Had she dealt with any of the darkness from her past? Absolutely not. So, at 25 years old, she was totally unprepared and ill equipped when her grandmother June passed away.
Chamique Holdsclaw
Oh, man, honestly, it just, it was probably up until that point, like one of the toughest things that I went through, you know, I felt like I was in this world, you know, alone, trying to figure it out.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
When Chamique was little, she couldn’t fall apart in reaction to what was going on with her parents. She had to be strong to protect her little brother. After losing grandma June, she was returning to old habits for someone else.
Chamique Holdsclaw
I had to be strong for my mom, because my mom had gone through her program at this time, my mom is not drinking anymore, you know, she’s doing really well. And I just remember my grandmother saying, you know, throughout the years, my daughter, you know, just make sure, you know, got to make sure she’s okay, you know, you’re not gonna send her back. No one is sending her back to drinking because my mom had this so well. So I often say, you know, I buried my grandmother and I just bury my emotions. I didn’t feel I was in a really dark place. And I didn’t take the time to grieve properly, I just want to make sure my mom’s okay. My brother’s Okay, you know, I’ll put on the Savior code, you know, I’m the strong one. And for me, that wasn’t something that I could uphold.
Chamique Holdsclaw 32:38
And eventually, you know, my world started falling apart. And I at the time, honestly, I was in a place that was very, very dark. And it was like, I was trying to swim, but I was drowning, and to not be able to express that because you think, All right, here I am now, at that point in my career, on the top female athletes in the world, you know, and people look at me as a sign of strength, you know, they notice story of me and my grandmother, my parents, a person has overcome. Now I feel like I got to live up to that.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
So that’s what she tries to do. And for the most part, it worked until it didn’t.
Chamique Holdsclaw
I was thinking about my grandmother, I just wanted to be with her. I just remember, you know, driving somewhere and I just pulled over on the side of the road, go meet some teammates, and let me tell you this, that I’m sitting there and I’m just overcome with emotions and I’m like, I can’t do this anymore. It was like a breakdown and next thing you know, I’m you know, I was this inside my place, you know, locked in for like, a few days, you know, having like, suicidal ideation and, you know, take my life and you know, my coach at the time coach Pat Summitt, legendary coach, you know, she has floated to try to, you know, get to me, but I was just not in a good place.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs 34:07
And how long was that? After the passing of your grandmother was that?
Chamique Holdsclaw
It was like a year later.
Mike Heyliger
Wow.
Chamique Holdsclaw
A year later. So after you know, they get me to this therapists and psychiatrists, and they’re telling me I’m on the suicide watch and all these things I’m becoming very remember like is yesterday this part because I became very irate and agitated like you just see me for this amount of time. How can you tell me I’m this and this and that. And I’m thinking like, my grandmother past like a year ago, how can I feel this way? So finally, when I was able to like come down, and they were telling me that I would have they would give me medication and things that are sore, and someone was talking to the therapist and stuff psychiatrist was talking with me, I was like, sometimes people have this like delayed reaction into grief and stuff like that. So I was learning about it. And I’m like, Are you serious? And they’re like, yeah, and you didn’t take time to grieve.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
It’s like in Nzinga said, your body doesn’t forget, as a kid, you cope with the stress in order to survive. And if it works well enough, you just keep doing it until something forces you to stop.
Chamique Holdsclaw
I really is like, Okay, I need help. Like, something is not right. Let me try to let me try to work my progress and, and try to heal and get through this. But it was just the most uncomfortable scariest thing to be, you know, 20 something years old to have things kind of go a certain way for so long, in a positive way. And now, a world class athlete and I can’t control this thing right here. I can’t control my mind. I don’t know why I feel like this. I shouldn’t be sad. I lost my grandmother. But why am I like going down this hole in this, like I’m spiraling out of control. I’m becoming paranoid. I think that everybody knows what’s going on in my head. I just want to sleep. I’m plotting, you know, planning out how I want to leave this earth. That’s not healthy at all.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs 36:17
Chamique was in the car, when her emotional dam finally broke wide open.
Chamique Holdsclaw
All of the sudden it just like, like something just hit me. And I was like, I want to be with my grandmother and I’m crying I’m in tears and I pulled over because it was just getting really bad. And it was like finally like all of that all of that pain that I held in you know, the grief that I didn’t let out and talk to anyone about just came out and it was just overpower me. I just cried. I must have been in that car for like, least hour and a half, like two hours is crying.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
So in a moment of desperation, she started calling friends.
Chamique Holdsclaw
You know, of course this like emergency. Everyone’s like, okay, we have to help or so I’m going to therapy or whatever. But still, it was a part of me that was in denial. So yes, I did just enough I did just enough and then I left to go to Spain.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
She jumped right back in to the nerf ball routine. And when that didn’t work, she ran. She went to Spain, she played in the Euro League, eventually came back to the US and ended up in LA where she actually found some stability. She was diagnosed with clinical depression and got set up with a medication routine that felt right.
Chamique Holdsclaw
You know, they were able to get me a therapist as soon as I got there. So for once I had like my psychiatrist and my therapists working right, I felt like supported, they knew what was going on. But after a while, you know, things are good. And I’m on my medication. But I’m thinking I don’t need this anymore. You know, stop taking my medication and then a spiral happened again, this time was like worse because I started like having these visions like when I’m going to work but for practice, and like oh my God, if I drive my truck or car in the trees, is anybody gonna miss me? If I jump off a building? Is anybody gonna miss me It became like, darker and darker and darker. And then I found myself in the middle of the season during the all-star break, you know, really trying to take my life, you know, by overdose and pills and alcohol. I found myself you know, making that call for help. That’s the only person that had the key to my place, the young lady that watch my dog.
Chamique Holdsclaw 38:40
And you know, she realized something wasn’t right. She came over, got me to the urgent care. Urgent care guy freaks out. Next thing I’m in the back of the ambulance headed to at that time, Centinela Hospital. When I get there, I remember the urge (unclear) freaking out, right? I’m in the hospital. I’m on the gurney. And I remember like someone from my team, I guess they are called like my general manager, and I’m kind of out of it. And she’s just like, What is she doing here? She’s VIP. And the next thing you know, I was like, thinking back like VIP like, this is the stuff I see or hear about on TV like this is what I’m dealing with. And believe it or not, I was on the suicide watch and VIP suite and I went through one of the worst nights because with overdosing on brain medication. I had like severe hallucinations. And so I thought like the cowboy I was seeing a cowboy with the lasso chasing me. I’m vomiting everywhere. It was just really, really, really tough. And to wake up from that, you know, like, Here I am rooms all white. And the doctor comes in and he said I don’t know a lot about women’s basketball, but I know who you are and you can’t let things get this bad.
Chamique Holdsclaw
You know, you’re really lucky you could have had like severe seizures. At that moment. I really felt guilty. Because I’m like, Oh my god, like, I’m a spiritual person, like, Oh my God, my family is gonna be so disappointed, I’m embarrassed other people are gonna know, this is what you know, deal with being in, you know, sort of spotlight. You know, I didn’t know what was next around that corner but I made a pact that I wouldn’t be silent about it anymore because if I’m suffering like this trying to keep things to myself I know as others like that, and it was like the first time that I really, really like, just like, spoke out about it without the BS and just said what it was. And, you know, I remember they say, Oh my god, this is like so many letters are coming because other people were sharing their stories with me, and how I impacted them. You know, which, you know, I was like, Oh my god, like, wow, there’s I’m not the only one because so long, that crappy little circuit tells you, oh my god, no one knows what I’m going through. I’m the only one going through this.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
The moment Chamique stopped listening to that crafty little voice inside of her head, she was finally able to hear what the people around her were saying. “We love you.” “You’re not alone.” Which brings us back to Mike. A lot of things did get better when he started going to therapy. But the voice inside his head was still running the show.
Mike Heyliger
I think I just was putting out hopelessness. Like I you know, there was no fire, no sparkle, no nothing. It was just me feeling like was is he feeling alone, it was me feeling like my job wasn’t really going anywhere. That I didn’t really have any friends that no one was interested in me romantically. It just, you know, yeah, that’s kind of what it was about. The combination of those things me feeling like I wasn’t just like, I wasn’t progressing. I wasn’t moving ahead in life. And, you know, as you get older and move towards middle aged, you kind of feel like the opportunities are not as plentiful as they might have been. When you were in your 20s so it was all that kind of combined. And in this particular scenario, like I posted something on social media, and that led somebody to call the cops and they came.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
We will talk about who should be responsible for responding to these calls and whether or not it should be the cops. Spoiler, probably not. But in this case, they did get Mike to the services he needed. I asked him when we talked if he was looking for this when he messaged his friends.
Mike Heyliger
There were definitely cries for help. I mean, I wanted someone to, like recognize what I was going through and step up to the plate with love somehow, whether it was like a phone call, you know, “Mike, I want to talk to you see how you’re doing,” or whether it was someone coming over and saying, “hey, let me just spend the day with you” or something like that, because being depressed for me, and being around other people is tolerable, I guess, relatively speaking, but being depressed and alone, and like completely alone, like I live alone is unbearable. like being alone with my head in that space in my thoughts, and all that stuff is just like that’s not a good situation.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
Being isolated is one of the most dangerous risk factors for suicide. And even though posting on social media worked in a pinch, it’s not the best option, because it’s a little like screaming into the void. And now that social media platforms are directly linked with law enforcement, you don’t know who’s going to hear that scream. But it’s hard to ask for help directly.
Mike Heyliger 44:00
One thing I’ve never been good at is reaching out when I’m at like a critical moment, because somewhere in my brain, I’m like, No one wants to talk to me. But reaching out has saved my ass on a number of occasions. Whether it’s reaching out to my therapist, or reaching out to my best friend or reaching out to, you know, whatever. It’s important to reach out and I need to remember that because again, like in my worst moments, I’m like, nobody cares about me, who gives a shit. But there are people that do
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
That feedback loop that nobody cares was part of Mike’s suicidal ideation. Not all suicidal thoughts are the same. For Chamique, it was active. She had a plan she had access to means. For Mike it was a little different.
Mike Heyliger
when I have felt suicidal, like there’s never been a point when I’ve actually like set the pills aside and like, you know, like, hit that step right before. You know, it’s usually like, you know, I wish, you know, I can have like a stroke overnight or a heart attack overnight or something like that just like die in my sleep somehow, as opposed to inactive, like these are the steps that I’m going to take.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
During those most vulnerable moments, those most depressive moments. What helped, like how did your life get from, I need to post this thing because I don’t care if I live or die, right? Like I’m just done, I don’t care to the dynamic vivacious person that I see now.
Mike Heyliger
It’s people, it’s having loved ones. You know, when I am at my most depressed, I either feel unloved, or that the people that I love are too far away to access or their, or just that they have other priorities that they can’t push aside to look out for me, you know. And just the being able to refute that, by being around people, and, you know, doing things that make me feel valuable to people is ultimately what ends up helping more than anything else. You know, I think when coming out got really real to me, I was, you know, because I’m religious and or I was religious, I guess. And there was always a period of time when I was like, man, if you know, I don’t want to go to hell. And then it got to a point where I was like, if I go to hell, everybody I like is going to be going there with me. So, you know, it’s, you know, reductive and kind of silly, but at the same time, it’s kind of like, knowing that you’re not alone, knowing that there are other people fighting for equal rights, and fighting for black rights and fighting for queer rights and fighting for women’s rights. And having that like, even if it’s like a little tiny bit of hope, like having that hope, is what like keeps me going.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs 47:18
This is such a long way from where he started. In an environment where the law of the land was to keep your business to yourself.
Dr. Nzinga Harrison
It’s not your fault that you were raised with this belief system. But as an adult, you have the ability to choose something different.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
We are back with Dr. Nzinga Harrison.
Dr. Nzinga Harrison
That makes it sound a lot easier than it is because it is so incredibly difficult to overcome the values that you are trained with. But at the point you recognize those values are not serving your safety, then I recommend one of two things. Start with one safe person that could be personal or professional. So don’t put yourself on the hook for all the sudden just asking for help everywhere, like one safe person, or also anonymously, right? So even just calling into a podcast anonymously, you can get help, calling a suicide chat line or texting the Trevor chat line, anonymously. You’re getting help without introducing all of the danger of airing your family’s business out. And eventually, that help will fortify you to be able to make the choice to actually identify yourself and ask for help.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs 48:41
This is exactly what Mike is doing when he reaches out to members of his chosen family. It’s what Chamique is doing when she shares her story and talks to others who are going through their own dark times. They’re intentionally putting their business out there. They’re making connections, which is an integral part of the magic formula, an idea that we stole from Nzinga.
Dr. Nzinga Harrison
The magic formula is biological, psychological, social, cultural, and political. So for every single illness we have, every single one of those buckets is contributing.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
Mental illness and childhood trauma impacts us on each of those levels. So the magic formula needs to address them to. Chamique’s magic formula is pretty much what you’d expect from an Olympian, no loosey goosey stuff around here.
Chamique Holdsclaw
I remember when I first started struggling with my bipolar and I was retired athlete and my doctor was telling me you have to have structure after do a really extensive therapy that know how important it is for me to not just stay on my medication because system with that because that’s a you know, no brainer, but also incorporating for me like my meditation, making sure my I have my yoga. And on top of that I wake up before the house is ever up so I can have that time for myself.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs 50:08
Taking this time is more important than ever, because she and her wife just had their first baby in 2019. When I talked to her, I could hear his little feet stomping around in the background, you likely heard his little voice throughout her interview. Based on her experience with her own parents. Chamique knows she has got to take care of herself if she wants to be there for him. And that means prioritizing the most critical part of her meditation practice.
Chamique Holdsclaw
Stillness, sometimes it’s just like sitting here, or just outside just walking down by the water. Just being alone with my thoughts. This is like so important. No baby noise, none of my friends and our wife, there’s no one, just me. And I found that that gives me a lot of strength. And I’m so grateful to be able to have that time.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
Chamique said 2006 was the bottom. That’s when she reached her breaking point where the pain refused to stay buried any longer. Over the last eight years, she has filled that void with love, and community and a beautiful family. Mike’s in a very different place on his journey. Not at the starting line. But let’s say at the end of the beginning.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
Like how do you feel when you hear the phrase like out of the woods? It’s like such a tricky thing to be like, Are you in a good place now? Do you know? I mean, because you’re we’re actively struggling right every day. But how would you characterize your own mental health at this point?
Mike Heyliger
It’s precarious. I think it always is precarious. I recently took a leave of absence from my job. Because I felt like my brain was not in a good place. And I’m back now. But I mean, where I’m stuck in my apartment by myself. You know, when you’re home alone, you can’t think of things to do. So you go on Twitter, and you’re doing scrolling and all that stuff in. It’s a lot.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs 52:19
Check, check, check.
Mike Heyliger
Yeah, so I’m doing my best to stay positive, and stay busy. So that I don’t focus on the state of the world as much. But it’s still hard to not be affected by everything that’s going on.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
Everything is really hard right now. And having it reflected back to you on a screen is not helping. Studies have shown that exposure to things like police brutality on social media can cause lasting trauma, especially for black people. But Mike’s sense of identity isn’t buckling under the weight of this, it’s getting stronger.
Mike Heyliger
As I get older, I sort of understand the ways that my blackness and my queerness has affected me. But I also think of the ways that being black and being queer has made me resilient, and has made me empathetic and is made me see the world in a much more full way than, you know, a straight white guy who was brought up in like a rural environment, and all he knows is other straight white people. I’m like it’s giving me a worldview that I wouldn’t take back for anything.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
There are not enough words in the dictionary to describe how much I loved hearing Mike say that he loved himself. This is not the guy who was running on fear, totally convinced he was going to die young, either from AIDS or by his own hands. We are shaped by our trauma, but it doesn’t have to define us if we choose to face it head on. Now, that is much easier said than done. Especially when you are also faced with historically entrenched systemic barriers. Mike and Chamique’s stories start and end in very similar places. Despite the fact that the bulk of the book is very different. You could look at Chamique and think that the only way to get past those Adverse Childhood Experiences was being a WNBA all-star and having access to all star care.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs 54:39
But Mike figured out how to get what he needed with sliding scale therapists and his chosen family. In both stories, there was a moment early on where things could have been different. If the community therapist Chamique saw had actually represented her community. Maybe they could have reached her. If Mike had one supportive adult in his life, who made him feel proud and affirmed, rather than ashamed and afraid, just imagine how many more happy days he could have had. We throw a lot of overwhelming statistics out on this show. And the whole premise is looking at big problems that feel crushing. But the big solutions are actually just a bunch of tiny things that add up over time. There are simple solutions, like one person, maybe it’s you.
Stephanie Wittels Wachs
The LAST DAY team is taking a little bit of a longer pause for the next few weeks, but we will be back with brand new episodes in January. Until then, stay safe, happy holidays, or just holidays. Either way, we are so grateful for all of you and we look forward to being with you in the new year.
CREDITS
LAST DAY is a production of Lemonada Media. And before I list all of our team’s names like I do every week, I just need you to know in honor of the holidays, how grateful I am for these people. They work so hard week after week to bring you the show making often very sad things completely pleasing to our ears. So I am sending a very special thanks to them this holiday season. Who are they, you ask? Our supervising producer is Jackie Danziger. Associate producers are Giulia Hjort and Claire Jones. Technical Director is Kegan Zema. Music is by Hannis Brown. Executive producers are Jessica Cordova Kramer and me Stephanie Wittels Wachs. We are thrilled to partner with the JED Foundation this season and grateful for all of their wisdom and support. You can find them online at JED Foundation and you can find more mental health resources at jedcares.org/lastday. If you want to hear more LAST DAY, we have a whole first season please go listen to it wherever you get your podcasts. And while you were there, please take the time to rate and review the show. If you do not mind it helps so much and we will accept it as your holiday gift. You can find us online at @LemonadaMedia. You can find me at @wittelstephanie. I will see you in the new year.
