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I’ve known Jason Beghe for 50 years and counting, ever since we met one fateful day in a high school biology class. I watched as this rambunctious and rebellious kid grew up and carved his own path, never following trends. But when Jason became heavily involved in the Church of Scientology, we drifted apart — and I felt like I’d failed him as a friend. For the first time, we unpack what went on between us during that period of our lives, and why our friendship endured. These days we’re close as ever, and I couldn’t be more proud of Jason’s unparalleled success as Sgt. Hank Voight on the long-running NBC series Chicago P.D. From the halls of our high school to the set of Californication, we reflect on a lifelong friendship the same way we always have: with heart and lots of childlike laughter.

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Transcript

SPEAKERS

David Duchovny, Jason Beghe

David Duchovny  00:05

I’m David Duchovny, and this is Fail Better, a show where failure, not success, shapes who we are. Today’s show’s a little different, because I’m going to talk a little bit about something that I consider a personal failure, and it involves today’s guest who is also one of my closest friends. His name is Jason Beghe, and I met him five decades ago at Collegiate High School in New York, and we’ve been here through all the milestones you pass in life, like love and loss and ups and downs and kids careers. We’ve known so many different versions of each other. We know each other when we met when we were 14. Jason is best known today as Sergeant Hank voit in the NBC series Chicago. PD, he’s been playing this iconic character since 2014 he’s also acted alongside me in The X Files and his novelist Richard Bates on Californication, and he’s in my latest movie, reverse the curse now on Hulu, and it’s kind of inspiring to me how he got into acting, and we’ll talk about that a little bit. But the other thing, big thing to know is that Jason is a former Scientologist. He first got involved in the 90s, and at that point, he and I drifted apart a bit, and we haven’t really talked about that in depth until today. And you know, as a fail better podcast, I conceived of this conversation and wanting to get Jason on, aside from the fact that I think he’s a unique kind of mind and perception of the world, was the fact that while he was a Scientologist and got deeply into it for over a decade, easily, I felt my friendship. I felt that I failed him as a friend. I fail. I failed in warning him and thinking, you know, I thought, this is a cult. This is not a good thing to be involved in. But I didn’t press those like a good friend might, I think. And it’s haunted me a bit ever since, even as we become very close again and repaired whatever fractures were in the relationship caused by by that time. But it has been something that’s weighed on me, and I see as a failure, a failure of like nerve, a failure of confrontation. But it’s an interesting thing, and I think an educational thing or relatable thing for people to hear how we sometimes can fail friends, or we fail them out of love. We don’t want to confront them, we don’t want to tell them that they’re wrong or they’re full of shit, because we think they’re going to get there themselves. Somehow, it’s not our place. All these things that went through my head at the time, and you know, there was all a part of me that was like, hey, maybe he’s got the answer. Maybe he’s right and I’m wrong. That was in there too. But anyway, we get to all of it, and hopefully with a good sense of humor that’s always been a foundational part of our friendship is just laughing our fucking asses off. Here’s Jason Beghe.

 

David Duchovny  03:06

How you doing?

 

Jason Beghe  03:07

I’m okay.

 

David Duchovny  03:08

Yeah?

 

Jason Beghe  03:09

Yeah.

 

David Duchovny  03:10

What’s wrong?

 

Jason Beghe  03:14

Nothing, actually. No, I just sometimes they get frazzled, you know, a little bit frazzled, but generally, I’m good, too good probably.

 

David Duchovny  03:28

That sounds a little superstitious. Too good is fine. No, I never think it’s too good, no, because I rarely make that kind of assumption. I can I turn it into bad immediately before it comes out it’s too good.

 

Jason Beghe  03:42

Me, I feel like things are so good that I’ve lived long enough to know that they don’t last. So I kind of like, I go outside, first thing I do is check the sky for a falling shoe. Yeah, could be an anvil, yeah.

 

David Duchovny  04:01

You don’t see that much anymore in the cartoons. It used to be falling pianos all the time. Yeah, that’s a good place to start for me, because I wanted to just say that I’ve known you for 50 years.

 

Jason Beghe  04:15

Is that funny now it’s 50, we just hit 50 this year. I believe.

 

David Duchovny  04:20

Yeah, well, I met you when I was 14. Yeah, freshman year of high school, and I would say that I wouldn’t be an actor, if not for you, because you were the first you and Maggie Jacobson Wheeler, were the only actors that I ever knew. Were the only people that I ever knew who who thought of pursuing acting as an actual profession? And I think I’ve said this to you, is that you were always your own man, even at 14, you were not part of whatever herd there was. You had your own opinions. You had your own likes. You didn’t have many dislikes. You were never a hater, but you liked. Jazz, you know Eric Gale, you’re like, turning on to Eric Gale, you know, I don’t think I ever heard you talk about Saturday Night Live. You know, that wasn’t a thing. You know, you weren’t part, you weren’t part of popular culture. You were in the midst of, kind of creating your own culture in some way, from a place of it seemed just curiosity and not accepting, not accepting what the system was telling you. And I wonder if you had a sense of that as a kid, where you think that came from, if you’ve ever thought about it that way.

 

Jason Beghe  04:46

I guess that was oddly moving for me to hear you say that I also feel like in a sense, because I hadn’t really thought of myself like that, but I felt because I don’t think of myself as different or Well, I do. I guess I when I think of myself, I guess I go. I guess I’m different, but I don’t different.

 

David Duchovny  06:04

How, when you think of yourself, I guess I’m different, different. How? How do you mean that?

 

Jason Beghe  06:08

Like the way you were saying that I don’t follow every herd, right? I feel misunderstood. I’m used to it.

 

David Duchovny  06:20

Yeah, I think you were misunderstood. Then at 14, I think you were misunderstood.

 

Jason Beghe  06:25

Yeah, I know and I, and I even used to say, who are you? And I would look in the mirror at a very young age trying to see who the fuck I was, and I couldn’t see myself, you know, because there was this resistance. And being told this is who you are, and feeling like that’s not who I am.

 

David Duchovny  06:53

And we went to collegiate, you know, which was a very establishment, I guess, the most establishment school, you know, so you had, you had exposure on all sides to, you know, you had entry. You had entry to a system that you apparently didn’t have that much interest in. You know, that you were more interested in creating your own kind of pathway, which to me, was, is, was ballsy and a mark of a curious, imaginative human being.

 

Jason Beghe  07:24

I never considered the other way though. I didn’t want to fit in, like that kind of middle class, accepted normal never seemed interesting or desirable. It seemed dangerous and a trap, like a killer.

 

David Duchovny  07:46

Well, you see me coming, coming at you like I’m coming from, you know, my mom, who is instilling the fear in me of, we’re barely in the middle class here, you know? So you’ve got to hang on and you’ve got to go do better. And there I am. And then I go to the school which is going to be my ticket. Yeah, out and out and in, and I meet you and it’s, I’m lucky, I feel lucky that I met you. And I’m not denigrating collegiate or that world at all. You know, we got, we got great educations there, but it was really this sense of interrogating that pathway, you know, from you, which was like, Well, I’m not, you know, you didn’t say it, but it’s like, I’m not accepting what I’m being given here as a given. You know, I’m just kind of out here free. You were very free and like, I mean, a nickname, bam, bam, which was not only because you Yeah, you were a man among boys. For one, you went through puberty at like five or six, I think, bam, bam. So so bam, bam, for those who don’t know, was the son of in the Flintstones, and he was really strong, and he had his club, and he’d go, bam, bam, and he’d bust things up. And you were it made sense for you to me, because both you were super strong, and secondly, you did bust things up. You were like a catalyst of change and not, not necessarily of chaos, but you were a wild card. And like for me again, coming back to like, me looking at you. I’m like, wow, this is, like, there’s like a free zone around this guy. Like, wherever this guy’s moving, he’s creating, like, a new environment. He’s creating new laws, or no laws, or whatever. And that was so cool for me, because I’m like, terrified, yeah, I want to follow all the rules. I don’t want to get in trouble, and so how does that play into things like specifically?

 

Jason Beghe  09:48

Well, I felt, I, you know, there’s that whole sense of immortality at that age, right? That I may have had a. Little bit more than most, but on in terms of, like, not giving a fuck about the grades or or all that stuff I could have I think, or No, I don’t, because of the ADHD or whatever that Bam Bam is, I just couldn’t do it. I know I could have probably focused and stuff like that, but it would have been such a strain that I probably just actually could not I mean, if it was a matter of life and death, I could have but I didn’t feel like I had a choice, and so I had to play the card that I had, and I tried to enjoy it and lean into it. I’m grateful that I didn’t feel like, what’s wrong with me? Or it’s just like, okay, fuck it, you know, I guess I didn’t get an ace. Let’s bluff. Let’s play this hand. Let’s try to have some fun. You know what I mean? Let’s see what happens like later. Years later, I heard a quote that I’ve held on to ever since, not to, you know, equate myself with him, but, you know, somebody asked Picasso, how do you paint a painting like Guernica? How do you plan that? And he said, I paint the picture to find out what it looks like, so I feel like, what that since there was no rules and I wasn’t playing in a system, there was no painting by the numbers, because I didn’t know where it was going, I just had to kind of paint the picture to find out what it looks like, and that doesn’t mean that along the way, you can’t, like, look at something and think, this sucks, and throw it away and just keep painting. You know, try another one. You know what I mean, I didn’t have a choice, so I made the most out of it. Like, you know how you were so disciplined and worked hard, and, you know, you were such a good boy, the head boy and all this, you know, you were perfect in so many ways. And I was not built like that. I wasn’t drawn like that. I was I couldn’t do it, you know, you i i admire like, I feel like it’s funny, like one of the things, like, when you talk about our relationship, which is a very, you know, I don’t know about you, but I don’t have close relationships for 50 years. It’s, you know, and that’s it.

 

David Duchovny  12:27

It’s just you and you and Maddie Warsaw for me.

 

Jason Beghe  12:29

There you go. And it’s Maddie, right. But the thing is, like, when I look at you and me, I think of it like puzzle pieces, like I remember the first thing I said to you, you showed up at collegiate, nervous kid, and I looked at you, and I went over to you. It was in Miss spars, science, whatever that was chemistry or biology, bio. And I go, Hey, what’s your name? You and David. I said, I’m Jason. I got a feeling you and I are going to be friends. And I was right. It’s a wonderful kind of a way to meet somebody and be right about it. But as it turns out, you know that discipline and that undisciplined that I have those two puzzle pieces fed each other, and I think that I wouldn’t be as you know, the success that I’ve had as an actor, a lot of it is from the discipline that I learned from you.

 

David Duchovny  13:47

It was with acting that you found a place, and you got into acting when we were in college. So I didn’t, I wasn’t there when you got into acting. And I’m just wondering, what was the feeling when you first started doing it? What part of you was being fed? What was the lightning bolt? Because it really it hit and, you know, it’s never left you.

 

Jason Beghe  14:13

Well, here’s the funny thing, all my life, you came to collegiate in ninth grade, yeah, High School. Ever since I was a kid, I would go to people’s, Michael Newhouse’s house, Mario, all these, you know, John C park, or Chris Huntington. I’d go to their houses and their parents say, Oh, my God, you’re going to be an actor.

 

David Duchovny  14:37

Really?

 

Jason Beghe  14:38

My life, because I was, you know, like this kind of funny, shiny, yeah, show off he kind of whatever I was, you know, I had a little pizzazz and, and I was free, you know, I didn’t, you know, edit myself and, and. I was, you know, but I went to collegiate where everybody, you know, became somebody with a briefcase and a telephone. And, you know what I mean, yeah, and, and I just, I knew, I couldn’t make it, you know, I could. There’s no way I could sit down all day and talk on the phone and make I go crazy and, and, but people used to say that, but I was in this environment where everybody was going to bound for Wall Street and lots of money, you know, in a country house and all this kind of thing. And I was like, I couldn’t do that. But I also knew, no, nobody becomes an actor. Yeah, we didn’t know anybody. We didn’t know and I remember when I went to college, I thought, Oh, I’ll take, I’ll take an acting class, because it seems easy to me, and, you know, I can get the credits. You know, it’s easy, and I went to my first acting class, and it was not just one period, it was two periods in a room, and it was kind of interesting. And, you know, whatever. But I went up after the class, when it was finally over, that was the first time I’d ever been in a classroom for like, 80 fucking minutes straight. Or maybe it was 90, I don’t know, but I was like, Listen, I’m going to drop out of your class. Thank you. It seemed interesting. He’s like, why? I said, it’s just not from he said, I really, he was like, really upset about it. I agree, I think you could really be great at this. I said, yeah, it’s interesting, but I got to tell you, honestly, there’s no way in the world I can sit down for 90 minutes. It’s impossible. I cannot do it. To me, that’s such a ballsy thing to say. Yeah I said, I’m sorry. I had no idea this was two classes in a row. I can’t do it. I was wondering why I only have to meet twice a week for all these credits. But here’s the fucking catch. I said, I can’t he said, what if I let you sit anywhere? You can lay down, you can move around, you do whatever you says, seriously. Said, absolutely. I said, deal, I’ll stay. And that’s how I ended up doing that.

 

David Duchovny  17:11

Well, he saw that in you. That’s a wonderful, wonderful mentor story. You know, I’m always looking for those kinds of moments when somebody sees you, you know, somebody sees you, where I’d like to go now is when I see you, and this is kind of the heart of what I thought would be interesting to talk about with you as well today. And I wanted to frame it in a certain way, which was like the failure of my friendship, in a way you know, with you, and not looking for any kind of forgiveness or absolution or even, or even for you to agree or disagree, but you became a member of the Church of Scientology in what year, what year is that? 94 and I see that as a very rigid system. You know, you went from being a guy who made his own rules and made his own way. And I know that you got that. I know that you got there through an acting class, right through Milton kinsellas, right? So there the conduit was actually through acting into Scientology. Is that? Is that fair to say?

 

Jason Beghe  18:24

Yeah.

 

David Duchovny  18:25

How did that recruit? Would you call it a recruitment if it was, how did that? How did that happen?

 

Jason Beghe  18:30

No, I recruited myself. Like the way it happened was Milton, you know, I, you know, I’m just going around doing work in LA and being an actor and doing my thing, people always ask you, Hey, you’re good. You know, who do you study with? And I’d say Milton could sell us. And then people at work would go, Oh, isn’t he a Scientologist? I didn’t know he never talked about that shit. You know, found out about him and and I would, but I admired the fuck out of Wilton Milton. Very perceptive, terrific teacher, genius teacher, really. And I learned so much from Milton. So I guess he was, he was a hardcore Scientologist. He was kind of a bad boy Scientologist. He was always in trouble. And you know, not toeing the line, I guess I found out in retrospect. But Scientologists, for many years, knew L Ron Hubbard was kind of L Ron’s, one of his little darlings, apparently, I think even you know, before he died, blah, blah, blah, what about Milton? So, you know, it’s one of those classes where, when the teacher walks in, you’re given a hand, and he sits down, and he liked to think of himself as, and I thought earned, you know, a master teacher. And at any rate, one of his idiosyncrasies is from time to time, maybe once every month or so. Six weeks, he didn’t like the vibe in the classroom, and he’d stop the fucking class and start attacking the class. You know, at the attitude, you know you have to have the right attitude, or I’m not going to teach you. You know you have to be willing to to be taught. And, you know, this kind of thing. I’m not here to fucking audition, and he was going on this tirade, and it was like, fuck. And I’m always sitting in the front row, like, ready, let’s go. Let’s have a class, because I was found something I was interested in, you know? And I could sit there for four fucking hours. I loved it. I loved watching class. Love to see people get better. I loved like, see, you know, you see the best work you’ll ever see in acting class, you’ll see somebody who just doesn’t get it all of a sudden, fucking get it. I mean, it’s fabulous. And so at a certain point, I felt like it was like this thing, like, who was it that wasn’t trusting Milton? And after about a certain amount of time, could have been as much as a half an hour of this fucking him yelling at us, and I knew it wasn’t me, because I’m the guy right there, like, hungry, let’s go. And I’m looking around. Who is it? And I thought, huh? And I at a certain moment, I thought, do I trust Milton? And I really felt it, and went, No, I don’t. I really, ultimately, I don’t. And then I thought, huh, who do I trust my parents now, any of my friends? And I thought about everybody, you too, no. And I’m like feeling worse and worse. This is all going on in my mind, and I said, well, at least I trust myself. And I thought about that, and felt it conceptually, and I thought Least of all, and I was like ruined, which is a Scientology thing. That’s how they get people in. They find your ruin. I found my own fucking ruin. And for some reason I just I don’t trust anybody, including myself and and I, and I was like, This is not good. I don’t like being this guy. I found this and I don’t like it, and you know me now, that’s how I kind of still operate. I try to find things I don’t like, and then I attack them. The method I came up to attack. How do I learn to trust? And I thought, let me do something totally, just caution to the wind. And I thought, let me find out what Scientology is, huh? And that’s how. And I went up to Bodie Elfman, who was doing a scene with Milton’s girlfriend, who was a Scientology. I knew they were Scientology. I say, hey, give me some fucking book on Scientology. Gave me this book called, what is Scientology? A lot of pictures this fucking thick. Yeah, I went through the whole thing that night, and I had done drugs, and I had always felt I’d stopped doing drugs by the time I was in my 30s, but I felt like they had affected me poorly, and there was this whole thing about getting the drugs out of yours. And I thought, okay. And next day I went in there and I said, hey. And basically, that’s how I got into Scientology.

 

David Duchovny  23:14

I never think. I didn’t know that.

 

Jason Beghe  23:17

That’s the story. It’s because you never asked.

 

David Duchovny  23:22

I can’t be trusted. I cannot be trusted.

 

Jason Beghe  23:25

No, I know what to expect.

 

David Duchovny  23:28

So you get in there and you and you, you accept that system fully.

 

Jason Beghe  23:36

You never, I was so like, wanting to, like, let me try this. This sounds good. Costs like, couple of $1,000 I got it on me. That’s fine. And I go in there the next day. I want to do this thing called the purif, yeah, and I’m ready to go. And they like, they want to give me a tour, and they want to do this, and I’m in there for fucking hours and hours, and I just want to do this fucking thing, but they’re trying to sell it to me. And I was there, like, I’m ready, let’s go. And finally, at the end, I said, can I just fucking buy this thing? And they said, okay.

 

David Duchovny  24:13

Yeah, that was the purification, which was your your conception of getting the drugs out of your body that’s taking a lot of niacin and being in a so on for a long time.

 

Jason Beghe  24:23

Like five hours a day.

 

David Duchovny  24:24

So that’s not the that’s not the philosophy, that’s not the system, that’s just like how you got to get your body and your mind to a certain place before you can even start to on the road. Yes, right?

 

Jason Beghe  24:33

Yes.

 

David Duchovny  24:35

So once, once you start walking down that road, what is it about that system that resonates with you? That works because it did. It did, and in many ways, it came

 

Jason Beghe  24:44

full circle. I’ll tell you what it is, yeah. So they tell me that in order to do the purif, you also have to do this thing called trs, which is training routines and objectives, which is a way. Learn how the end phenomenon of this small course that they claim is to be firmly rooted in the present time, right? I said, that sounds fucking good. Okay, give me that too. So that and the pure of together was, you know, whatever, 2500 bucks. Okay. I said, can I just start this pure of thing? They said, well, you got to start the TRS. I’m like, okay.

 

David Duchovny  25:25

Back to school.

 

Jason Beghe  25:26

Right, so you read this thing, and you learn about this thing, and basically you sit three feet away from somebody, and you do a thing called TR zero, where you just confront a person, and that’s the beginning. There’s and there’s others. You know, you got to be able to confront a person who’s who’s like, pushing your buttons. And there’s a whole bunch of stuff, and you learn how to communicate as part of this whole thing. But the first thing is, just sit there, be there comfortably, and confront, which is their definition, is face without flinching. And it could be an hour or two or whatever, you’re just sitting there looking in somebody’s eyes, and they’re looking at you. And here’s the thing that got me into Scientology, is that I’m doing that fucking exercise. And per their definition, I left my body. They call it, going exterior. And I felt separate from my identity and myself. I felt the difference between, which is another thing I experienced when I died, was in the coma. Which is I felt a difference between Jason Beghe and me.

 

David Duchovny  26:47

Let’s just wait. Let’s just quickly say Jason had a horrific car accident. What year was that?

 

Jason Beghe  26:53

Like? 2000 2000 Yeah, no, 99.

 

David Duchovny  26:57

Should have been dead.

 

Jason Beghe  26:58

September 12. Yeah, I died. I broke my neck, my back, all the shit.

 

David Duchovny  27:03

So that’s what you’re referring to when you’re saying going exterior,

 

Jason Beghe  27:06

Yeah, but that moment, here’s the fucking full circle in our little discussion, though, that moment where I went exterior and I felt the difference between being Jason and just being I finally answered that question that I’d been asking myself in the mirror. Who am I? I felt like I knew who I was for the first time, and that was all I’d ever wanted my whole fucking life. And I said, Holy shit, I’m in. And that day I went and I bought my entire bridge to clear. I think I gave them 50 grand that day, and I’d been in two days, how’s that for learning how to trust and the bitches betrayed me. That’s the end of the story, fuckers, I’ll never trust anybody again. That’s what I learned. Though they don’t trust anybody.

 

David Duchovny  28:05

Oh, god.

 

Jason Beghe  28:06

Yeah, can you fucking believe it? It’s good though it’s good, shit.

 

David Duchovny  28:35

As we remain friends, but we kind of drifted apart a little bit. I mean, we both.

 

Jason Beghe  28:43

They told me, I they wanted me to get you in, because you’re this famous actor, and, you know, you’re this guy, and you’re my best friend.

 

David Duchovny  28:50

Well, we had the wet you got married at the C center, and.

 

Jason Beghe  28:54

Yeah, you were my best man.

 

David Duchovny  28:56

I was your best man. But that day I went in and I squeezed, I squeezed the cans.

 

Jason Beghe  29:00

You did?

 

David Duchovny  29:01

I did? You need to know that? Huh? I went in, and this woman was auditing me, and she started asking super personal questions, and my my the hair on the back of my neck went up, and I was like, I don’t know that this is phony bullshit, but I do know that I don’t want to talk about this with a stranger, you know, that’s, that’s all I know. I’m squeezing the cans and I’m just thinking, No, I’m not, no, I’m sorry. I’m not going to have this conversation, you know. So it didn’t go as well as yours did.

 

Jason Beghe  29:36

Not but, yeah, but I was, I mean, I had set myself up to try and completely give over, let down all my defenses. And I was on this mission to trust and of course, I picked the wrong people.

 

David Duchovny  29:50

Well, but that’s, I don’t know if that.

 

Jason Beghe  29:53

I don’t have any regrets, no […] out of it.

 

David Duchovny  29:56

Well, that’s the thing. It’s your mission that’s always. And you’re, you’re looking for something. You know, that’s, that’s how we started this conversation. It’s like you, you’ve been a searcher, and this, whatever this Mirage was, it wasn’t the thing, but there were some things in it that were worthwhile to you. It certainly took over your life. And one of the things that I think was, you know, what I consider my failure in that time was being aware that I don’t, I don’t know. You know, what happens when somebody goes into Scientology, probably into any kind of philosophy or religion, is their vocabulary changes, because it’s really, it’s a, it’s a brainwashing, and it’s, that’s that starts with language, you know? So you don’t call this thing recognize or getting to know somebody. You call them confronting. You know, sort of, there’s all these, you know, you had all this language, and all of a sudden you were speaking to me in a different language, which scared me, and I didn’t trust and but I didn’t have, for whatever reason, I didn’t call bullshit on that. I guess I sensed that I couldn’t, you know that you were kind of in so deeply that if I try to call bullshit, I don’t even and I didn’t even know that it was bullshit or not. Either, I didn’t know enough about it to call bullshit. But you know, I couldn’t confront somebody being that percentage of a believer, you know, that percentage of a systems believer. And you of all people, and I didn’t get into that with you, because I just, I don’t think I wanted to, to try to puncture that. I didn’t want to have that fight. And I regret that, you know, I regret, even though I know that probably couldn’t have persuaded you at that point.

 

Jason Beghe  31:44

Can I give you a because I was there, I was in it and I got out, yeah, and in retrospect, your behavior was almost perfect as a friend, in retrospect, because you never made me wrong. You maintained your own position in space and your own integrity. You mirrored my level of closeness and warmth, and I felt because I know you that you judged me, but you kept it to yourself, and you didn’t judge me to the point of knowing you were right, but you weren’t ready to go over to the other side, right? And it forced me to respect that. And I remember they when I would be kind of asked about, you know, what your status was vis a vis Scientology. At one point, they tried to sell to me that you were a suppressive person.

 

David Duchovny  33:14

You’ll have to explain what that is to people.

 

Jason Beghe  33:17

That’s somebody, anybody who’s like against Scientology, that a Scientologist, if you’re around them, you will not only fail, but you will have injuries, accidents and illnesses. They’re dangerous and they’re, you know, ultimately, evil people. And there’s a whole explanation for it, but I never bought that you were a suppressive person, you know. So I, you know, there was things that I just kind of suspended, you know, belief and ignored. And you know, when I finally found my way out, which was a number of things, including, you know, there’s a there’s a moment where the bell goes, Oh, fuck, you know, and you realize, and that moment, all of these things, you go, ah, and it can, can kind of go ah, for a year or two. Oh, but one of those things that were like, yes, was you. Your behavior. So I’m not, you know, obviously not here to try to make you feel better, because I know you’re not losing sleep over this, but I want to tell you that you may feel shitty about that you should have done more. It’s kind of like, Listen, you did it. It’s like, like, for instance, I have, you know, a guy I know who’s got a girlfriend that I don’t think it’s the right girlfriend, and they got into the point where, you know, he was like, I’m not sure, I’m not sure. I think I’m going to commit. Right? And I thought I’m going to tell you that I don’t think it’s the right thing for you to commit to. I don’t think she’s, you know, a bad person or anything like that, but I just want to go on record, right? And he’s like, Well, I disagree, and it was uncomfortable for, you know, a little bit, but we’re close enough that, you know, he’s allowed himself to forget that we had that conversation, but I feel good now that I’ve done it. I support him because I support him, you know, I don’t hate her, I just don’t think he she’s the right girl for him, you know. And I wish them well and all that. And I don’t I’m not in the way. I don’t try to sabotage anything, but I do, as I felt it was my duty as a friend to give him the opportunity, out of you know, the respect that he affords me, to let him know clearly what my opinion was right for him. And in a sense, I feel like you did that without actually having that conversation.

 

David Duchovny  36:03

Okay? Well, I appreciate that, and I’ll take it in. When you were in Scientology, it became like your your career. I mean, because you didn’t, you stopped working quite you know, it was more important to you than, and I’m not, and I’m not judging that at all, like it’s.

 

Jason Beghe  36:20

No I did what I wanted to do. Was more interested in that.

 

David Duchovny  36:24

And then beautifully, I thought your your response was at the end, like, why? I think I remember asking you, what, you know, what? Why did you want to get out, you know, ultimately, and you’re like, I want my money back. It doesn’t work. Which was like, which was like, the, you know, because you get all these people coming out of Scientology, you know, like, Oh, I’m traumatized this and, like, whatever, you know. But it’s like you were just like, hey, you know, the shit doesn’t work. Give me my money back. And that was the whole thing. But when you came out of there and you you did need to work, because you had a young family, you know, and now you find yourself in your 40s, or late 40s, and you’re like, fuck, you know now, now I got some responsibilities, and people are counting on me and and I haven’t worked in a while, yeah, and I remember what I wanted, what I wanted to see you do is I wanted to bring that the anarchy that you were in touch with when you were a kid, the lack of system, the courage to kind of live. And I was like, I’ve never seen Jason. He’s the funniest person that I know, and I haven’t seen I really want to see him do that in his work. And I was so happy that we got to do that in California occasion, because it is one of the funniest parts that I’ve ever seen. And there’s nobody, that could have done it like you, because you are fearless and fearless comedically. And that was, that was really satisfying for me. And when I look back at your your career, you know, we talked about you getting this job at Chicago PD is pulling, you know, getting an inside straight, you know, pulling a fifth card to an inside straight, because it’s not supposed to happen to somebody. How old were you when you got that job? 50 something. You’re not supposed to get that network lead at that point. And now here it is, 13 years later, and this incredibly successful show, and you’ve made this culturally indelible character, so it’s all it.

 

Jason Beghe  38:28

The funny thing is, though, when I was thinking I got to go get a series, yeah, I thought ideally it’d be a Dick Wolf show. But you know what? The one thing that I fucked up, that I was what I was pushing because I had a goal, really? Yeah, I wanted to get on a series, and I even made the postulate of a Dick Wolf show. But because that’s why I’m always careful, like, not to set goals, because you usually get them, and they’re usually ego driven, and that’s not a recipe for success, right? It’s that’s the difference between Jason and me, Jason’s goals are not mine. So I try not to set goals, because I don’t trust Jason still, but I want it to be like number eight on the call sheet.

 

David Duchovny  39:13

Yeah, right.

 

Jason Beghe  39:14

I didn’t want to be the lead too much fucking work.

 

David Duchovny  39:17

Well, let me also tell you just like, in terms of you say number eight, and I have actually have this written down, like, the last thing I wanted to talk to you about was being number one on the call sheet, because that’s not something that that kid ever wanted. You didn’t want that responsibility. You didn’t want that system. You don’t want to you don’t want to be in a system that has numbers in it anyway. And if you’re going to be a number, you’d rather be number eight. But what I what I see, is a show is a big machine. It’s a big system. How many people are employed by that show? You’re the leader on the set, you’re number one, and you’ve been doing it for 13 years. And forget about sitting still for 45 minutes. You gotta sit still on set for. Or how many hours a day, how many months out of the year, and you’re doing it with joy, and you’re not complaining, I don’t think, yeah, so look at that.

 

Jason Beghe  40:08

I learned that from you. But I got to go back to the first thing now that you said, because I know you wanted to wrap up, and this might be perfect. So you, you started this podcast, I guess, with talking about me in a way that moved me and it made me feel understood, and I think like and I feel the same way after that acknowledgement that you just gave me. And I don’t think that there’s a lot of people on this planet, maybe uniquely you, maybe not, but certainly you are who can I feel that feeling again, and I don’t feel that feeling a lot, and it’s a feeling of, I feel good about myself, and I feel, you know, like a lot of people, want to win an award, like an Oscar, or that’s how I feel when you say that to me like that’s.

 

David Duchovny  41:28

I understand because.

 

Jason Beghe  41:30

But you, that’s what I’m trying to say, is that you understand me better than I understand me, and I don’t give myself that credit, and I think you’re right, and I’m giving myself the credit for the first time because you I hadn’t thought about it, but it makes me feel good about me, and that’s a hell of a thing to give me, David, and I love you for it.

 

David Duchovny  41:53

Well, I love you, and I think it’s not a small thing, and it’s not something that people talk about either. It’s not something that actors get credit for either, so I’d like to give you that credit.

 

Jason Beghe  42:06

Well, thank you. I appreciate it coming from you. And I know you know the job.

 

David Duchovny  42:10

Yeah, I know the job. And also I have to pee.

 

Jason Beghe  42:16

Oh, yeah, okay.

 

David Duchovny  42:21

Jason.

 

Jason Beghe  42:23

Goodbye.

 

David Duchovny  42:27

Thanks for being here. And I have one final question for you, can you beat that Dutchman team?

 

Jason Beghe  42:33

Hell no.

 

CREDITS  42:34

Oh, hey, lots of thoughts after having the conversation with my old dear friend Jason Beghe and the first thing I would talk about to you guys, is it put me in touch with the with gratitude around having an old old friend, and the not necessity, because Not everybody can have one, but the utility, the the the depth of having an old friend, because you can check in at different times of your life. You can go through different stages. You know, you’re not married to that person, but they’re they’re with you through every stage. They’re with you through every five year increment, 10 year increment. They’re with you for the marriage, they’re with you for the the children. They’re with you for the career. They’re with you for the the aging. You know, they’re with you over the years, and to have someone that knew you when, and I’m not talking about when you weren’t famous. I’m talking about when you were a kid and has watched you change and transform over the years from this to that or the other thing. It’s an invaluable there’s the word, it’s an invaluable asset to have that sounds clinical, but those are the words I’m using for each of us. For Jason and I, we can, we can check in, and he’s a keeper of a version of me from many different times of my life, and I’m a keeper of a version of him from many different times in his life. And I can’t think of any other way, because, you know, our own memories are so fallible and our own self conceptions are so flexible and hazy, it’s hard for me to think back to my 14 year old self and get any kind of objectivity. And he’s, he’s there to say, no, you’re, you’re misremembering. I’m not talking about specifics. I’m just talking about feel, you know, no, you got it wrong. You were this kind of person. You were that kind of person. And then you, then you, then that grew. Into this, and that grew into that. So all that stuff, hey, rRookie, my dog just walked in. All that stuff is put me in touch with all of that as we as our conversations. Conversation yesterday ranged back, you know, in time to the beginning of our friendship was when we were 14 to now when we’re 64. There’s more Fail Better with Lemonada Premium. Subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content like more of my behind the scenes thoughts on this episode. Subscribe now and Apple podcasts. Fail Better as a production of Lemonada media in coordination with King Baby. It is produced by Kegan Zema, Aria Bracci, and Dani Matias, Paula Kaplan. Our engineer is Brian Castillo. Our SVP of weekly is Steve Nelson. Our VP of new content is Rachel Neil. Special thanks to Carl Ackerman, Tom Karpinski and Brad Davidson, the show’s executive produced by Stephanie Wittels Wachs, Jessica Cordova, Kramer and me, David Duchovny. The music is also by me and my band. Lovely Colin Lee. Pat McCusker, Mitch Stewart, Davis Rowan and Sebastian […]. You can find us online at @LemonadaMedia and you can find me @DavidDuchovny. Follow Fail Better wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon music with your Prime membership.