Subscribe to Lemonada Premium for Bonus Content

As a founding member of the band Toto, Steve Lukather is well aware of the song you probably know him for. But Steve, known to most as “Luke”, has plenty of other claims to fame. Luke is a seriously talented guitarist and writer with more than a dozen albums to his name from Toto alone, not to mention an almost infinite number of credits and Grammys from his session work with stars like Paul McCartney and Quincy Jones. It all started with the enthusiasm that Luke’s parents expressed for a musical career, guiding him toward frequent lessons, hard work, and the practice of showing up to a studio every day and putting in the hours. Being a working man is what led him to where he is — and, as any young player would dream, it’s also what got him the ultimate compliment from Jimmy Page.

Follow me on Instagram at @davidduchovny. Stay up to date with Lemonada on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram at @LemonadaMedia.

Joining Lemonada Premium is a great way to support our shows and get bonus content. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

For a list of current sponsors and discount codes for this and every other Lemonada show, go to lemonadamedia.com/sponsors.

Transcripts

SPEAKERS

David Duchovny, Steve Lukather

David Duchovny  00:01

I’m David Duchovny, and this is Fail Better a show where failure, not success, shapes who we are. Steve Lukather is a guitarist, vocalist and founding member of the band Toto. Steve, or Luke, as he tends to be called, is a long standing fixture in the music world. In addition to playing and writing for Toto, he’s offered his talents to countless recording sessions over the years, from a very young age, like from Michael Jackson, Stevie Nicks and Cher he’s also released a number of solo albums. When you listen to this episode, Luke will likely be on tour somewhere in the world, even though he just broke his ankle, so he’ll be sidelined for a little bit. But nothing can stop him. When we sat down together to record this conversation, he just dropped up totos 2025 European tour. Next up is another international leg before their US amphitheater tour this summer, a few years back, he also released a memoir called the gospel, according to Luke, which I referenced throughout the conversation, Luke is everywhere, whether on stage or in the impact he’s left on decades of hit music. There’s so much to be said about his contributions, especially the credit and glory he has and hadn’t received, and I’m grateful to be in conversation with someone who can talk about all this with such perspective and history. Here’s Steve Lukather.

 

David Duchovny  02:41

Do you know, do you know these books, these 33 and a third book?

 

Steve Lukather  02:43

No, what are they?

 

David Duchovny  02:44

Oh, they’re fascinating. They’re really.

 

Steve Lukather  02:47

Oh, wow.

 

David Duchovny  02:48

Look at this. They’re like, the making of.

 

Steve Lukather  02:50

Oh, wow.

 

David Duchovny  02:52

And they’re all this size, which is cool, and.

 

Steve Lukather  02:55

With interviews with people playing on the records, yeah, yeah, sure. Well, I’m a big, steely fan.

 

David Duchovny  03:01

I know, so am I? Yeah, this is good, right? This is good radio, right? Here is we’re having Steve read a book.

 

Steve Lukather  03:12

I’ve never seen. This is very cool. 33 and a third, uh.

 

David Duchovny  03:15

I’ll leave that for you, yeah?

 

Steve Lukather  03:16

Man, thank you. I will absolutely. I got to sit around my house and get well from this broken leg thing, yeah,

 

David Duchovny  03:22

Man, I’m sorry about like we were supposed to get together last week.

 

Steve Lukather  03:26

Yeah, you know, I had to bail. Sorry about that.

 

David Duchovny  03:29

No, that’s all right. I mean, it’s an excellent excuse.

 

Steve Lukather  03:31

Yeah, man, well, you know, you see, I’m not faking it.

 

David Duchovny  03:33

Yeah, well, I haven’t seen the actual leg. I see a cane and a boot, but.

 

Steve Lukather  03:37

Well, I had, you know, with these, these ugly boots, thank God I have, because I have a brace on it, you know, yeah, to put it in there so it’s not so I wasn’t forced to put on the cast. Cast. I can get the one that comes on and off.

 

David Duchovny  03:49

Soft cast yeah. So you just said, you just finished the tour so.

 

Steve Lukather  03:52

Yeah, we were in Europe for over a month. It was fantastic. How about it was great, really great. One of our best ever. What made it great? Attendance. Uh, interest. Interestingly enough, the age group was somewhere between 15 and 35 which was really interesting considering, you know, our first record came out in 78 right? This is and we’re streaming incredible. It’s just really, I don’t even know how to put it, you know, we’re just very grateful to this.

 

David Duchovny  04:18

I I’ve got a great quote from you here, which is why.

 

Steve Lukather  04:22

I’m full of shit, just, you know, oh, am I allowed to swear.

 

David Duchovny  04:25

Yes, please do. The more, the more, the better. This is you responding about, I think it’s about talking about critics. The kids dig it, and don’t look back at the 80s in the same way those of us who live through through it do. We outlived all the history rock critics that don’t they don’t have jobs anymore because nobody cares, or they’re dead. Sorry, guys, what a smarmy ass.

 

Steve Lukather  04:47

Sorry guys, we outlived you. Well, you know what I mean, I was trying to be subtle with my approach and answering that question. But oh, you know that just me popping off? Yeah, sure. Gotta understand some. Man, I got a little bit of ADHD, and I’ll pop in and I’ll start talking, and I won’t shut up. I people misinterpret that as, you know, I’m on something or.

 

David Duchovny  05:08

I didn’t interpret it that way at all. What I what I get out of that? They call you Luke, they call me Duke. Oh, Luke and Duke. How about that? Ready to go? You know, there was with Toto. The great music of Toto was kind of, critically, you guys were always beat up on.

 

Steve Lukather  05:30

Back to first album, you know, right? We were rock band, we were essentially coming out of the Bosca Silk Degrees thing which David Page and Jeff Bucha were starting a band, still their band, whether they’re in it or not. And, you know, it just sort of happened also fast for us. We had made a record before we ever played a live gig. I mean, we were a high school band, right? You know, which is something that people don’t realize, Oh, those studio guys put together a band. That’s not true. We actually, we were. We had a Steve Bucha had a band, and me and Michael Landau and John Pierce and Carlos Vega rest his soul, John Pierce on bass. And then we had three great singers, Charlie Gina and Lori, and we just did steely stuff. And Jeff Bucha was the drummer in Steely Dan we were in high school, and David Page was his best friend, and they were on to things. And we, we all wanted to be like them. They were a couple years older. So our idea was to, was I wanted to be in a band with those guys? Yeah. I mean, because.

 

David Duchovny  06:30

They were, you’re 17, 15, time, 15.

 

Steve Lukather  06:33

When I met this guy, 15, almost 16, and, you know, we were family for a long, long time.

 

David Duchovny  06:41

Yeah, well, Steely Dan got shit on by critics, yeah, but rock critics.

 

Steve Lukather  06:45

You know, actually, you know, the critics wanted to hate him, but they didn’t understand it, because it’s very articulate, very intelligent, yeah, music, whether harmonically and or lyrically.

 

David Duchovny  06:56

Well, I’ve kind of a theory about rock criticism and talking about music, it’s a force over that. It’s, I know, I know. But you know, to talk about critics, I think what they do, like, when I when I look back at, like, rock critics, it’s all about authenticity. Like they have this idea of authenticity, which goes back to the British Invasion, or whatever, you know all of a sudden, like the stones are authentic when we know that they’re they’re not actually or, if you go back, did you see the Dylan film this year? Not? Man, they’ve been on the road. So much interesting. But you heard this really, you know the story, right? Of When Dylan goes electric. So sure, that’s another example of when all of a sudden people are saying, Oh, that’s not authentic. That’s not authentic folk. And this is, this is what I feel about.

 

Steve Lukather  07:42

But who, you know, who’s not authentic is the people writing about what they can’t do. You’re, I’m just valid to write about your brain surgery. I found out that a lot of these guys are failed musicians. Wow okay, did you get off today? Guys? Yeah, it’s just make you talk about right? We’re talking about it right now.

 

David Duchovny  08:02

Or if you think of punk like all of a sudden, punk came in. It was real. It’s real all of a sudden.

 

Steve Lukather  08:06

Compared to Los Angeles Times the first album comes out, they put us against the sex business, right? You know, I mean, Steve Jones, great. Ken met him several times. You know, a lot of respect for what they did, yeah. But we’re, you know, I was studying music and listening to Sten, and they were anarchy against the world. And I’m from North Hollywood, going studying music, like eight hours a day, you know?

 

David Duchovny  08:29

But also, if you look at the way your band got together, which is completely organic, just love of music, kids getting together, and you look at the Sex Pistols, as this supposedly authentic group was put together by a marketer.

 

Steve Lukather  08:39

Well, see, this is stuff I don’t know. You know, I’m just, I’m, like, everybody’s buddy as a studio musician, I played on so many styles of music anyway, that. I feel comfortable in the room with anybody.

 

David Duchovny  08:49

But I guess what I want to, what I what I just want to before we leave this area, what I find interesting, like on this podcast, is to talk about people. You know, obviously, you’re super successful. You’re an amazing, I mean, you’re amazing guitarist, you’re part of the history of rock and roll, and a big part of it. And when you’re young, when you’re starting out, critic takes a shot at you, it’s harder to tell. Oh yeah, the first one hurt, but does it get into your head the next time you sit there?

 

Steve Lukather  09:17

I mean, at first it’s like, you know, it’s a sucker punch.

 

David Duchovny  09:19

But like, at some point you came to just that sense of, like, I don’t give a fuck. What you think.

 

Steve Lukather  09:27

You think I give a fuck, right? But I stopped dying my hair. Yeah, I’ve accepted my geriatricness in its humorous way,

 

David Duchovny  09:36

But it’s my feeling like that. We have to overcome that initial kind of and the worst part, well, the worst part is when it gets in the way of your work or your creating. And I’m just wondering if you ever, like got to the point where you’re second guessing yourself because of that.

 

Steve Lukather  09:52

You do sometimes, if you let like you said, that little ear worm, that little germ of doubt, start eating. At your brain, you start second guessing. You say, Well, am I trying to please this guy? Yeah. I mean, you have to take it with a grain of salt and go look, it’s one guy’s opinion. Yeah, you know. I mean, you think that he’s sitting in the house waiting for your response or so he’s not.

 

David Duchovny  10:16

Do you remember any of the good reviews? Because I don’t remember any of those.

 

Steve Lukather  10:20

Um, it’s ironic, because we live in as as artists, very myopic little world. Like, you know, it could be 100 people saying you’re the greatest in the world. One guy writes, that’s the guy absolutely suck. That’s the guy like, Well, what did I do to this guy? Yeah, like, I wouldn’t necessarily respond, but it would stick with me. Of course. I go, like, because then I start going, Am I really that way? You’re a human being. The other thing is that people don’t understand. And I’m not even some big, famous guy or nothing. I am what I am, you know, but that’s fine, because I can’t imagine the TMZ crew outside the house like some of our friends have to deal with. I’m sure you’ve had to deal with that at some point or another, or it sucks. It’s like, Come on, man, kids and whatnot. Yeah, it’s ridiculous. You know, the fame thing. People think that that’s a fun thing.

 

David Duchovny  11:07

So your your dream.

 

Steve Lukather  11:09

Like, I’ve always just wanted to be a musician because I was like, you know, since I saw the Beatles on The Ed Sullivan Show My dad gave me meet the Beatles and a really cheap, shitty guitar, yeah, with a bolt on neck. You know, the five bucks a thrifty drugstore, which I still have, is a lamp that my parents gave me on the my 21st birthday. Well, you made it into a lamp. That’s a great gift. I still haven’t that’s a great gift, little reminder of the humble beginnings.

 

David Duchovny  11:37

Yeah, but I in the book, um, what I find interesting about like, when we’re talking about failure and success is like, what the initial kind of dream or ambition versus what happens in life, but also in the book you, you, you tell this story that I find amazing, which is that you just knew how to play guitar when it landed.

 

Steve Lukather  11:58

It was very strange man. I mean, I wanted it so bad, like every kid who we were all mesmerized by the Beatles before, you know what? I mean, I went full circle with that all the way to the 50th anniversary playing on the TV show, the 50th anniversary of them being on that show. Well, you tour with Ringo? Yeah, I’ve been with Ringo for 13 years, but I worked with Paul and George was a friend. We worked together. What a surreal experience. You know, I go from like, you know, some punk ass kid in North Hollywood, an apartment in 1964 to I’m working with McCartney on thriller, yeah, Michael and and then I meet George in a bar, of all places. It was a high end place, and you wanted to be George, right? I wanted to be George. That was my first guitar hero. I mean, I wore out the needles on or, I should say, I wore out the record playing the soul of I saw her standing there over and over again to my old man. Just went crazy, if you play that one more fucking time, he didn’t hit the rock and roll. Thing was that he just didn’t get it. He didn’t think that. How do you make a living doing this? What was, what did he do? He was an assistant director.

 

David Duchovny  13:01

Oh, production.

 

Steve Lukather  13:02

So he worked television films. So was my grandfather.

 

David Duchovny  13:04

They work in like, studio television, like, like, sitcoms or, yeah.

 

Steve Lukather  13:09

yeah, my old man was, was doing Ozzy and Harry, wow. He did happy days. He did a deer hunter. You did millions of things. I mean, bewitched. You see the name Luka there somewhere right night on Hulu, or something like this. He’s in my dad, my grandpa.

 

David Duchovny  13:28

Yeah, so you see the Beatles, and your mind is blown.

 

Steve Lukather  13:33

I want to do that like every other kid in America. You know, the other million, hundreds of millions of people over, what a moment.

 

David Duchovny  13:39

I mean, you know, you’ve heard it before. There are people like you, people

 

Steve Lukather  13:45

Anybody my age that plays guitar now or plays in a band was affected by that night, whether directly or indirectly, that week changed the world.

 

David Duchovny  13:53

It’s amazing to think about a moment that could be so homogenous, you know, that there could be so many people watching one moment, because we’re so fragmented now in our listening and our watching and our thinking.

 

Steve Lukather  14:04

I asked Ringo bottle once. I mean, it’s been so weird for me. And the timing of all this we were coming out of World War Two, yeah, the Kennedy assassination had happened. The whole United States was upside down. The world was upside down. And these four guys from Liverpool came over and just the sun came out again. There’s just something joyful about what they did from day one, you know, and they didn’t even realize it at the time, according to Ringo, they were kind of terrified by wouldn’t you be? I mean, you know, when you get a mania, yeah, people come at you say you go to some place where everybody knows. Well, also, there was no, there was no precedent. There was nothing. There was no like, you know, the Ringo used to, you know, they used to play these gigs where they turned the stage and they would actually have to get off and move the ramps. I mean, it’s hilarious to think about like this. There was no tax or anything. They had Mel and Mal.

 

David Duchovny  14:54

Well, I guess Neil and Mal. I guess you had Frank Sinatra or Elvis,but I’m, really, I’m, I. Really taken with your your notion that it was a certain kind of joy coming out of world that we needed.

 

Steve Lukather  15:06

The world needed. It wasn’t just, I mean, we were ever it was like, wow, did that just really happen?

 

David Duchovny  15:12

Well, we just, I mean, you think about it, from 1914 to 1945 it’s 30 years. We go through two world two world wars in 30 years, there must have been a sense of like, we’re at the end of civilization, yeah.

 

Steve Lukather  15:25

And then, you know, of course, it’s just crazy. And it became this positive light. And then all of a sudden it started the subculture, and that scared the government. And then, you know, it became a thing, you know, now it’s hard to tell where people stand, you know, back then you did, you know, and you know who the hippies were, and you know who the straight people were, you know, I mean.

 

David Duchovny  15:46

But did you as a kid and as a growing kind of, you know, musician, did you relate to that joy in yourself? Was that where you were trying to get at all?

 

Steve Lukather  15:59

I can tell you, when you get back to the guitar thing, I wanted to play this thing so bad, and just couldn’t, you know, the fingers coordination and this guitar was damn near impossible to play. Is the laughs you’re talking about. Now, the strings are about three inches off the neck, you know, and painful, you know, my old man bought it as a joke for five bucks, he’ll grow out of this page. That’s the mop top on the head, the whole cliche. But it just didn’t it was something resonated in me. Then I said, I have to do this. Have to make this work. And one day, I was sitting on the front porch struggling, and out of freaking nowhere, I swear to God on all my children and all I am as a human being. All of a sudden, my hands just fell into the first position courts, you know, E, A, D, G, C, and the coordination. All of a sudden, it was like somebody turned the off switch on. And it was very strange with those chords. No man, I didn’t know nothing. I was living on a block. One, nobody was there. I mean, it wasn’t like I could get on the internet and learn out of well, this, yeah, um, I just, I wanted to be a part of that one way or another. I had to play that music. I had to make that sound.

 

David Duchovny  18:21

So for you at that age, like all you knew is you knew is you wanted to play music. You wanted to play good.

 

Steve Lukather  20:43

I was always so terrible at sports, man, they got the shit beat out of me, thrown in my face and, you know, made fun of and humiliated and a little bit, when I was 11 years old, we played at our fifth grade graduation. I had a band, and everyone went crazy and all said, everybody’s nice to me. After that, I said, Well, I like this. This is cool. I can do this. You know, I got my first taste of applause. You know, the girls remember that?

 

Steve Lukather  21:09

Oh, man, yes, moment like it was, yes. Where was it?

 

Steve Lukather  21:13

Real? Vista school in North Hollywood. High all the time.

 

David Duchovny  21:17

How old are you?

 

Steve Lukather  21:17

I was 11 at the time, 11, I’ve been playing for a few years. You know, sure you’re a session man by that. No, he had session man at 11. No, I didn’t even know what that was until I got into high school, my car brothers, right then, we all wanted to be that.

 

David Duchovny  21:30

Yeah, so you’re, what’s the gig at Rio Vista High School?

 

Steve Lukather  21:34

Oh, just, you know, play, you know, cover four songs. You know, I played, you know, foxy lady. Oh, you dead. Oh, yeah, purple hay and I had a fuzz tone you could play, yeah, you could play that. Yeah, that’s what made me a little more freakish than the other kids, you know, right? I could play things like, I play songs, and I had an amp and, you know, fuzz tone. The guy that was teaching me a little bit, just teaching me chords and stuff like that, he had some great gear. He’s older guy, yeah, let me play it. And the girls all freaked out. And it was really a lot of fun. We’re pretty good.

 

David Duchovny  22:00

Turn it up to 11.

 

Steve Lukather  22:02

With a small amp. Yeah, you know the small amp. It was loud enough to make the teachers put their ears over their hands, over their ears. And we thought, okay, that’s the coolest thing ever. We pissed everybody. I want to do this for a living, and that would have been, you know, 1966 so it’s part.

 

David Duchovny  22:18

Part of it was just fucking with the system as well.

 

Steve Lukather  22:20

It was just all of a sudden I was good at something that those other guys weren’t. So that changed everything for me. And then I realized I’m going to do this. And then I realized how hard it was to get into it, to really get good, the tools you needed to actually be a real musician, not a rock star, right? Because you said that’s like that needle in a haystack thing, you know, it’s like being a superstar actor or something great.

 

David Duchovny  22:44

But what you say in the book, where you played a long time by instinct, and then there came a time when you realized you had to get educated.

 

Steve Lukather  22:57

My old man was like, Okay, you really like, you’re not growing out of this shit.

 

David Duchovny  23:00

How old are you now?

 

Steve Lukather  23:02

Junior High School, 13, 14, maybe it was about 1314, and my old man says, like, I talked to the guy at Paramount. He’s working at Paramount pappy days or something. He talked to Carl fortino, who is the head of the music department there. And he goes, Yeah, my kid plays. I’m not sure about this thing. But our next door neighbor moved in, and he was the drummer, the touring drummer with Helen red here, session guy, and he had a house and a wife and a car. My old man was like, well, so you don’t have to be famous to have all this stuff. That really changed everything for me. Yeah. Mom was like, okay, but Right. You gotta learn how to read music. You got to learn how to do this. You got to do this, and you got to do this, and you got to make a professional. You have to be a professional. Forget this rock star shit, you know. I mean, whatever you know. But if you’re going to be a, you know, you could be a guy back then, before the machines and DJs took over, you could do top 40 gigs, weddings. I mean, it’s not a, it’s not a superstar life. But, I mean, you could, you could eke out a living and be a musician and have a respectable, you know, you get a road gig, you could have a house and stuff and never, you know, but you know, then it obviously all changed again, yeah, but that was, that was my, I promised I would do that. And my old man said, well, you’re not going to college, so we’ll spend some money on this stuff. If you you know, what are you going to do if this doesn’t happen? That was always the thing.

 

David Duchovny  24:24

Sure.

 

Steve Lukather  24:24

Your old man probably said the same things like, well, what are you going to do?

 

David Duchovny  24:27

I didn’t tell anybody that I was pursuing acting. I was too scared, and I was, I was in graduate school for English literature. I was going to be a professor and a teacher, and then I got into acting, through writing, through trying to write plays. But I didn’t tell anybody. I didn’t tell anybody. I was just hoping I get a job and then I could tell people what I was doing. So I understand that kind of fear and that pressure, but you’re lucky that you had parents that listen.

 

Steve Lukather  24:55

I could have gotten a DGA man, you know, easily because, yeah, the grandfathered in, literally, my grandfather. And like that. Yeah, I could have got in if that’s what I wanted to do, because my dad didn’t want to be in show business. Man. He just, it was a gig for him.

 

David Duchovny  25:06

Right, it was work a day. Yeah, when you, when you went to learn the instrument, it was very difficult, yeah, did it change the way you play?

 

Steve Lukather  25:16

Yeah, had to, you know, all of a sudden I could play anything I heard on, down, down, down, down, you know, reading the notes.  And then he’d screw it up. And now I had really good ears, so he’d yell at me and go, you’re using your ears now. I’m not gonna do you could tell it’s the same? Yeah? He goes, I’m giving you the same level of reading, but you’re copying what I gave you last week. You’re not reading the notes today, sight reading them, right? So he would get upset with me. Sometimes. He was great. He was great. God bless him. Jimmy weible, yeah, I immersed myself in studies for, like, for four years of training that would have taken somebody else 15, you know, 10,15, years to get together, and then I was thrown into it. I’m very lucky to be geographically placed to get the opportunity, but you walk in the door, do you get called back?Then, it’s not luck. Then this is a little bit more. You had some skills, but you didn’t.

 

David Duchovny  26:08

You didn’t feel the tension between whatever was natural to you and whatever.

 

Steve Lukather  26:13

Was hard because, I mean, it’d be really frustrating to play dumb stuff, you know, yeah, when you really wanted to just shred or whatever, you know. But the discipline, see, everybody now, the first thing they learn is really complicated stuff, as opposed to, like, you know, if I could play an E chord and strum along with somebody that I was considered amazing, yeah? How can this little kid do that? Right nowadays? It’s like, you know, you’re the fastest guitar player in the world. Is four years old in Japan, it’s kind of laughed. It doesn’t mean anything anymore.

 

David Duchovny  26:42

Yeah, well, yeah, you can see it on YouTube. No, you can. It’s like everything you can see on YouTube. When I started, when I started playing guitar, I was 50 already, and I started playing at 50. Yeah, I’m not a good player. I just play well enough to throw chords together and write songs. But I can’t.

 

Steve Lukather  26:57

You don’t look like you’re older than that.

 

David Duchovny  26:59

I can, thank you. I can’t play really well at all, but I can play well enough to write songs. But I started writing with a friend of mine named Keaton Simons, who’s a really great guitarist. I don’t know if you know, but he’s a great singer songwriter, guitarist, and he said, and I was writing songs with the few chords that I knew. I remember writing a song that began in a minor and then the the chorus was an a, you know, like, nobody’s really going to do that if they know what they’re doing. But Keaton said, I like your songs because you make mistakes that are interesting, because you don’t know what you because you don’t know what you’re doing good.

 

Steve Lukather  27:37

That’s the only role, right?

 

David Duchovny  27:38

And that’s why I’m asking, like, did you, did you ever feel like that kind of training as helpful as it was for you to become a professional? I didn’t believe but did it take you away from the 11 year old? No, it didn’t at all.

 

Steve Lukather  27:52

No, it just I wasn’t playing bands and still doing what I wanted to do. It I was studying to be and doing the game.

 

David Duchovny  27:58

But do you feel like there’s a sacrifice of for lack of a better word, like Soul or instinct or love?

 

Steve Lukather  28:04

No, that’s the biggest lie in the world. Is the biggest lie? Well, is being smart a deficit? No, knowing a foreign language. Does that make you dumb? No, it doesn’t make you dumb. It makes you it doesn’t mean you can’t go to France if you don’t speak French, but it helps.

 

David Duchovny  28:19

But you can learn technical proficiency, but you can’t learn touch or feel your soul.

 

Steve Lukather  28:23

Learn like all of a sudden, well, I learned some chords. I’m gonna write a song like Paul McCartney, right? It doesn’t work that way, right? That’s something else, because it’s the same chords. Yeah? You can sit down at a piano or a guitar and play an E chord or something like that, and it’s the same E chord everybody plays, yeah? How come that E chord turns into, you know, you know the Beatles song, yeah, and your record sounds like an E chord.

 

David Duchovny  28:44

Yeah, just stays there. Did you see that, that Rick Rubin show with Paul McCartney?

 

Steve Lukather  28:54

I haven’t seen.

 

David Duchovny  28:55

Oh, you love that, because he, I think Paul sits at the piano and says, Well, I only knew three chords on the piano, you know, and.

 

Steve Lukather  29:01

She was still made the most.

 

David Duchovny  29:03

Exactly, but I think that’s also, and maybe you can speak to this in terms of Toto, it’s also the chemistry of people coming together.

 

Steve Lukather  29:12

Yeah, there’s definitely is a reality, and I’ve had to deal with that because there’s been several versions of my band. Sometimes it’s, not our fault. What do you mean the death of two brothers on the band, people not wanting to do it. People ill, yeah. I mean our singer, Bobby’s got dementia, real bad, bless him, you know. And Paige is not built to tour anymore. But although he is involved in the business and stuff, um, Steve had no interest in touring, or he’s just, I don’t know what he’s doing right now. Um, I wish him well, but, um, I don’t really see anybody anymore. I’m working. I’m in Ringo Ben. I mean, the total thing that we keep working a lot because things are going really well, might as well parlay it, you know, yeah, you know, if nobody showed up, we’d be out of business.

 

David Duchovny  30:00

You have a hunger to write new music and to collaborate with your old collaborators. Forget about touring. Do these guys want to sit down?

 

Steve Lukather  30:06

We did that, you know, we done it on our solo records and stuff like that, which we do kind of playfully trying to simplify it. You know, we know what the deal is when we go on the road. We do that everybody is paid, everybody’s happy, and the rest is, you know, enjoying myself and, you know, getting our keeping our music alive when it normally would have died. If I didn’t keep the music alive, it would be dead. Would have died 1993 after Jeff fest, I just didn’t, I believe that we could do this again, really, at least if I’m going to end it and at the top of the game, as opposed to the bottom of the game. Where did that belief come from? I’m just stubborn when I you know, I don’t take no for an answer. Well, you know. And if I really believe in something, I really want something, then I’ll really work hard for it, you know. And if it fails after that, well, I gave it my best shot.

 

David Duchovny  30:55

You’ve seen the movie The Wrecking Crew, right?

 

Steve Lukather  30:57

I know all those guys.

 

David Duchovny  30:58

You know those guys? Yeah, so people out there haven’t seen that documentary. It’s fascinating. It’s a great insight into the 60s sound, la sound, and the Beach Boys and these guys, these amazing sessions.

 

Steve Lukather  31:12

It showed people what it was, I mean, back in the old days, session guys were just reading the notes on the paper. You know, if you’re in the you’re in the NBC band, and you do all the music for NBC. And that’s, you know, you’re a contracted guy, got a great gig in house and the whole thing. But, you know, as 60s came in, the hippie vibe and the Beatles and The Stone, the looseness in the studio, everybody wanted to do that. And so that’s when the whole game of recording changed. You know what? I mean, you would take longer, and you would spend more time experimenting with sounds in the studio, and you get a little sometimes you just write in the studio and.

 

David Duchovny  31:47

But so if you’re you start, you’re aware of the Wrecking Crew. Sure to desko and.

 

Steve Lukather  31:53

I went to grammar school with Steve Caton, who’s guitar player. His father was Roy Caton, who was the contractor for all those Wrecking Crew sessions. He was a horn player. He was the guy, the leader of the sessions. He was all players. So, I mean, I was so close.

 

David Duchovny  32:11

Yeah, but you’re still really young.

 

Steve Lukather  32:14

Well, yeah, at the time. But, I mean, you know, I was in sixth grade, you know, and we were playing in the garage, and some of the guys like Tommy’s desk, because they probably was those guys that came in and we were poking around at us, looking around at us right, laughing and digging what we were doing. And didn’t realize who it was until much later, because Tommy had this real famous hat that used to wear, right? I’ve seen that in the movie. But as a character, man, oh boy, is he a character.

 

David Duchovny  32:38

Funny guy, yeah. So you got but, but you kind of became part of, like, the next generation.

 

Steve Lukather  32:47

There was, there would have been the Crusaders and the LA Express guys. We were the more rock and roll guys. Those are the jazz guys playing rock and roll, and we were the rock and roll guys that could do whatever.

 

David Duchovny  32:56

So do you remember like, the first session where you added something?

 

Steve Lukather  33:00

Well, I remember my first, you know, legit sessions in 1976 you know, at the United Western, which is now east west, all the great studios are all going bye bye. Man, it’s breaking my heart. Yeah, there were so many great places I spent my entire lesson. The best times in my life were being this young session player. Man, it was so cool every day going to work, yeah. What are we doing? Who am I playing with? What kind of music are we doing, who’s gonna be on the session with us? Yeah, there was, we just roll in, and it was always the same bunch of knuckleheads, and we were getting always into trouble. But we took the music very seriously, sure.

 

David Duchovny  33:34

And did you do you remember when you felt the freedom to kind of add?

 

Steve Lukather  33:38

Yeah, well, I mean, I was kind of like from the beginning, you know, I had a good set of years to find parts like, you know, you’d be singing and playing your melody, yeah? What’s going on over here? You know, that’s what I read, a little hooky parts, yeah, falling just in the right hole. And that’s what, that’s what makes the hit well. And that’s what we got paid to do. That’s always good at that. So then I got paid to do that, and I really enjoyed it. It was really a challenge to do that four times a day, every day for, you know, five, six days a week for 20 years, you know. You know, you had to have new, fresh ideas and different kinds of music, different players, different producers, engineers, artists. You know, it’d be, you know, it wouldn’t be weird to like, do Aretha during the day, and say, a cheap trick session at night, you know?

 

David Duchovny  34:26

And did you feel pressure? Or, yeah, no, I’ve.

 

Steve Lukather  34:28

Actually at that point, you know, at first you’re like, you want to fit in and you want to be cool. There’s a pecking order. And once you’re in the scene, once you’re an accepted guy, yeah, you start to get to the a list. You know, there was, I was confident, but, you know, whatever, wanting to please, and that was the important part.

 

David Duchovny  34:45

And were you still trying to get better?

 

Steve Lukather  34:47

Yes, I still practice.

 

David Duchovny  34:48

You do still care? Yeah, well, I mean, you have a great moment in the book where Paige said to you, you’re the best thing. You know, you should be a special man, right?

 

Steve Lukather  34:59

I walked in. In with Eddie. Everybody was already there. It was a closed event, yeah, just to honor Jimmy Page, yeah. So I went with Eddie. I thought, Oh, this would be great, yeah. So I’m walking in. I’m walking with Ed, you know, and there’s Jimmy greeting everybody, and he points, and I think he’s pointed at Eddie, yeah, yeah. Ed goes, like, he goes, No, I go, because, yeah, pointed me and comes, come here, I’m looking at it. I’m going, Are you fucking kidding me? And I walked over. He took me aside. He goes, Look, I just want you to know, man, you got something different than those other guys out there. He goes, You were a studio player. I was a studio player. I know what that is. And we were around the same age when we started right. He goes, You should wear that proudly, man. I heard, I read somewhere that you were like, Oh, well, maybe people take me more seriously if I wasn’t just a studio guy. He goes, you’re throwing away something that those guys could never do. And you know, I was deeply touched by that. And I said, can I tell people you said that?

 

David Duchovny  37:38

What Jimmy Page was saying to you, and I think what you took to heart, oh, touching me deeply, right? Tears of my ass, this is what I’m saying when it changed. I take great pride in the fact that that I showed up to work every day and punched the clock and put on my hard hat, you know, and I was a pro.

 

Steve Lukather  38:19

You know, your words, and you knew exactly I take great pride that’s a great I mean, that’s prerequisite.

 

David Duchovny  38:25

It’s not though, as you know, as a musician, it’s not a prerequisite, and it’s not a prerequisite for actors, either. So it is something that we can take pride in. And that’s all right, you know.

 

Steve Lukather  38:35

The people that are serious about the work are serious about the work, whether it be a musician, actor, writer, anything like that. You know, artist, you know, there’s a lot of people that just want it for the show biz, part the money and fame and all that other stuff. You know, those are the guys that show up and need the earpiece and show up hungover and fucked up and still drunk from the night before or whatever, having a bullshit their way through it with other people that showed up ready for work going like.

 

David Duchovny  38:59

What happens is, the system is built in such a way that, you know, those people, we’re not going to name them, aren’t allowed to fail, because then everything fails. So what happens is, the entire production coalesces around keeping that person afloat, and nobody ever knows. And is that? Do you feel like that? That’s what kind of settles you in your in your spirit and in your life, is that you know in your heart you put in the hours. You’re a session man. You’re doing it out of love. I know the rest of the stuff come as it may, come as it may.

 

Steve Lukather  39:37

I’ve had, I’ve lived the dream, and I’ve got to be in my own band, which is still going almost 50 years later. And, you know, been a session player at the the last era of the great session guy.

 

David Duchovny  39:47

But then the music survives, because the music is good.

 

Steve Lukather  39:50

For some reason, you know, this Africa thing has been a blessing and a curse, you know. And at the same time, tell me about that. Well, you know, it’s a first off. It’s the least toto song out. For a whole bunch. But that’s the one everybody thinks.

 

David Duchovny  40:01

That’s, what is that? A Pan flute in that? What is that? What is hand flute? You know? What is that?

 

Steve Lukather  40:07

The is a colimba. Maurice white used to use fire. It’s like a little, oh, that’s a Colombo. Yeah. And David Page had just gotten this new Yamaha keyboard from, you know him, and there were some sounds in it that had these sounds. And he just started going for this. And it was like just playing around. We watched it occur. You know, these hit songs like that are written in five minutes, the details of the third verse and all that stuff, yeah, but the initial germ of, here’s the hook, here’s the groove, here’s the riff. This is catchy. Let’s work on this one, because this has potential. But it was the last thing we caught. We thought it was a throwaway song, Dave. We made the whole record without hearing the lyrics, and the last thing we did was put the lead vocal on everything else was done. When were the lyrics written? Very last. The very last thing who came up with that notion, um, Bill was David Page, and Jeff Bucha wrote the words.

 

David Duchovny  41:02

Yeah, I think it’s, it’s very different lyrically from a lot of.

 

Steve Lukather  41:06

Very different lyrically to anybody we laugh at him. Yeah, people try to think we’re serious about us. There’s, like, Guys, there’s poetic license to this stuff, you know. You know, you can’t see the Kilimanjaro from this area, like, you know, let’s not get too anal about this, right? Then, it rhymes, you know? I mean, let’s go back and listen to some Beatles songs and see how the lyrics, you know, we need a rhyme here. Okay, let’s take a left field, yeah.

 

David Duchovny  41:31

But what did you, what did you do on the album, on the record, on Africa, played background focuses, all the guitar parts, yeah. And so you figured out the guitar part with, with, yeah, just.

 

Steve Lukather  41:41

You know, I’m David would write these songs, or we all write these songs. And, you know, yes, on the piano. Well, he wrote it on this GS seven, that’s what it was called, yeah, the Omaha keyboard, right? But it came together. Track came together fast. Jeff Bucha wanted to make a big deal out of it, you know. And use loops and do all the stuff that people talk about now, we were using actual loops that were, like, made on and you had a hold of the pencil. Oh, really. And he was really old school, Al Smith. Our engineer was, like, from that era, so he knew how to do all the stuff, right? So we were just having fun being producers, going like, well, they gave us the keys to the kingdom. Let’s use it. So we made this incredibly overproduced record, and then we heard the lyrics last I just started laughing, going, what does this mean? Man, I can we’re from North Hollywood, but it’s become the golden carrot, you know, so you can’t argue with and then the kids hear that, and they go, what these guys got 14 other albums out? And the whole back catalog starts to go so it’s your gateway drug to Toto, yeah? And then they find out wasting these guys are actually rock band, yeah? It’s kind of like the band extreme, with the song more than worth acoustic song, great song, noon, you know, but noon is one of the best guitar players on planet Earth, yeah? And they’re a rock band through and through, yeah. So in their first album, you know, they had the hits, right? Yeah, people buy the album and hear all this other stuff. They’re like, was it the same band, right? We had the same kind of stuff happen to us.

 

David Duchovny  43:05

Lyrically, do you feel like you guys had an identity, or do you feel like it was just song by song? What lyrics were lyrics?

 

Steve Lukather  43:13

Let’s be honest. Early on, the lyrics weren’t strong. We were just teenagers and kids, you know? What do you write about? You know? Yeah, and David was primarily writing the first couple albums, and then we started, you started encouraging us to write more. And by the third and fourth album we were writing, everybody was writing, but we didn’t really give it that much thought, man. It wasn’t just like, who’s got a song today and let’s put it together. And that was how we looked. We didn’t rehearse. We’d show up the studio with nothing going on. Our first album. Day one. What are we going to do today?

 

David Duchovny  43:44

Really.

 

Steve Lukather  43:44

Dave’s got a song. Okay? Dave would come in with a new song every day, you know, with the exception of the two other songs that were written by Steve and one by Bobby. But the rest of it was all day one, the first album. Every song was a jam. You’re going, okay?

 

David Duchovny  43:57

So you guys hadn’t written before that.

 

Steve Lukather  43:59

You weren’t real band per se. I mean, we’d never played live as toto before our first album, but it was very much a collaborative back and forth.

 

David Duchovny  44:09

What I get from, and I’m not a real musician, and I don’t, I don’t know music, I’ve never studied it, but what I get from your particular style, what I hear in you is, is aside from the leads, you know, which is whatever signature you have, but I feel like your rhythm guitar got me ironed. There’s something about there’s something about your strum.

 

Steve Lukather  44:34

I don’t know. I mean, no words. I mean, I just try to find a part to blend in, you know, that would, that would thread it all together. But wasn’t equality to something that you can get it helps it bounce along a little bit. You know, I was good at finding those little common tone parts. Yeah, stay out of the way, but keep it grooving.

 

David Duchovny  44:51

Does that come from? What was the Beatles song that you that you played for? It was I started. No, were you saying that you played?

 

Steve Lukather  44:57

I started saying, Yeah, I had nothing to do with it. But, yeah. But no, after I studied music, harmony and theory is probably the most valuable time I spent learning music, common tones, how this, how it all works, how music is mechanically put together. Very mathematical. Yeah, it is. And I was never great at math, but somehow that makes sense to me more. But I mean, I wasn’t Mr. Joe site read either I could read, but there are guys that can just do that, and they’re not really good at coming up with parts for records, you know. I mean, so they do the TV, film stuff, which is all written out. Then there’s the record guys, the different set of guys.

 

David Duchovny  45:33

Do you still hear the way you used to hear? Not like, just physically. But do you hear those moments? Do you hear?

 

Steve Lukather  45:39

Sure, sometimes I forget about stuff. There’s so much stuff I did I forgot.

 

David Duchovny  45:43

No,  I mean, like to write new stuff. Are you still hearing those moments? I mean, I guess, I guess. What I’m asking is more, um, just personal to you, in the sense of, because I know, like, as I age, as an actor, I’m interested in different things. I have different strengths that come out. And I’m wondering if you feel the same way as a creator.

 

Steve Lukather  46:08

It’s funny, because until you’re in the moment, it’s hard to anticipate what that’s going to be like. You hope for that magic to happen. You hope for that spark. Sometimes it doesn’t happen, and then you’re going to go, Well, you know what? We didn’t get it today, or, if you’re lucky, here in the studio, yeah? You go, look, look, we didn’t get it today. I’ll come back pissed off and play it right, that’s usually what would happen if I if I was working on the soul, and I go, nah, it’s just not there yet. Man. Usually I play the best stuff right off the top, but a couple times I’ve said it’s just not right. It’s just not right. And then I get mad and come back the next day, and right away, I played the right thing, right? But after struggling for hours, going, I’m not getting this. I’m not went around the blocks, tried everything there is to try, and I’m I got nothing.

 

David Duchovny  46:53

But if you were to say, if I were to sit you down and say, write me an album, is it going to sound like toto from the the 80s, or is it?

 

Steve Lukather  47:01

No, it’s not gonna sound anything like that. That’s the ironies. Like people think that everything I play on something, it’s gonna make it sound like Africa or something just not the case. It’s not what you know. So when you kind of I can meld into whatever is happening if you’re working on a particular style of music, I’m all in with your style of music. Let’s make this session that’s always gonna be, it’s just music. It’s just music. I love to make it. I love to help other people, make it. And see the look on their face when their little song turns into a record, an actual song, and they’re just all excited about it. Go, wow, we made this guy’s day. This is great. It makes worth living, you know.

 

David Duchovny  47:35

Yeah, well, the last question I asked, too, is, like, lyrically, do you feel like you’re interested in different things and well.

 

Steve Lukather  47:43

Yeah, as the lyricist now, I’m much better at it. I mean, because I’ve lived life, and I’ve also studied it and studied the greats, and I have more to say. I mean, when you’re young, you’re just like, Ooh, baby, I love you, or whatever. You know what? I mean, just kind of very immature, right, unworldly lyrics, because you really want to hold your hand, yeah. You go from that to sexy Sadie. That’s all.

 

Steve Lukather  48:07

Yeah, four years. Yeah, yeah.

 

Steve Lukather  48:12

I wish I had that talent, but I’m a fan of it, that’s for sure.

 

David Duchovny  48:15

But you you feel yourself stretching in that direction.

 

Steve Lukather  48:18

You never want to just stop trying. I’m not worried about the next hit record. I don’t have. I get my career has been great. I mean, our career has been fantastic. I could live off of the rest of my life.

 

David Duchovny  48:31

Like, for instance, would you? Would you write a song where you’re the parent, a father song,  a cat’s in the crazy.

 

Steve Lukather  48:40

I haven’t gotten there yet. I mean, those are great songs, legendary, but I haven’t written that one yet.

 

David Duchovny  48:47

I really thank you for talking about, I’m just trying to see if there was anything else.

 

Steve Lukather  48:50

Thank you, David , has been great.

 

David Duchovny  48:52

I wanted to talk to you about, oh, yeah, one last thing, just because, you know, we kind of focus on success and failure on on the podcast a little bit, and it’s, it is so hard to talk about music.

 

Steve Lukather  49:02

Because I’ve been through both sides of the fence.

 

David Duchovny  49:05

Like, when you like. So what was the year you won nine Grammys? 1982 you went nine Grammys.

 

Steve Lukather  49:10

Yeah, 1983 eight or something like that. Yeah, I won one side of the band for me.

 

David Duchovny  49:15

So now, like, little Steve was like, I just want to be a session man. And now grown up, Steve, I want to be in my own band too. I mean, that was okay. I want to be my own band. But now all of a sudden, you’ve got nine Grammys. So now, like, are the goal posts changing on you? Do you get in your own head?

 

Steve Lukather  49:33

Well, that’s exciting about awards are great. I mean, it’s really sweet and all this stuff, but it doesn’t really define you as a person. Like I, you know, I keep them up in a walk by once a while. I don’t really pay much attention, but I was 25 when that all happened. And so, I mean, it was a big deal. Then my parents were alive to see it. My old man got to see his investment pay off, you know. And all right, kid, you made it. You proved me wrong. Good for you. It was great. It was a great moment. You. Was at the house, the wife, the kids, you know. And I’m a successful guy, and, yeah, he’s like, all right, man, my grandpa lived to see it. So it’s like, okay, I didn’t, I didn’t end up a schlub, you know.

 

David Duchovny  50:12

But I mean, when you sit down to do the next album, or, you know, are you.

 

Steve Lukather  50:16

Every day at a time at this point? Man, every day above ground at this point, but in no more pressure.

 

David Duchovny  50:21

Then after you want all that.

 

Steve Lukather  50:22

I don’t feel the pressure to be anything. It’s really been great for me. It’s part of my whole stop dying my hair, embrace my old madness or whatever, and just go. I got nothing to prove anymore. I’ve done what I’ve done. I still care. I still want to get better at it, but I’m not trying to keep up with the kids, per se, kind of, like, it’s their turn now, you know, to, you know, to let them blow up their vibe. You know, I’m just staying sure what I do, and I’m enjoying this part of my life, because I don’t have to be in that competition, fastest gun the West and all that, who’s on top? Oh, I gotta be as good as that. I gotta, you know, I’m like, enjoy, man. I’m real happy and honored to have gotten a little piece of the acre right that I got.

 

David Duchovny  51:03

And you like being a supporter of.

 

Steve Lukather  51:05

I like doing it all.  Yeah? I’m a handball up front. I’m also a great supporting player. Yeah, I don’t have any head trips about it.

 

David Duchovny  51:14

Tell me some of the unsung, great players that you want to just.

 

Steve Lukather  51:16

Oh my gosh, there’s so many. I’m Greg cock. He’s, he’s just like the little bit older guy around my age, just just getting his is he’s getting his due. Mateo Mancuso, well, forget about it, yeah. Then there’s got the Govan, and there’s all the other legendary guys that we all know and love, you know. Sash phi, yeah, Petrucci, Steve Morris, Michael Landau, one of the greats. I could Eric Johnson, I could Andy Timmons. I could go on on Jeff Coleman.

 

David Duchovny  51:49

I don’t know these guys. Yeah, like I said, there’s a lot of great guys probably know the songs that they played on, right?

 

Steve Lukather  51:55

Yeah, I mean, I could go on and on, you know, I’m forgetting people. I’m sure that’s the problem. When she started naming names.

 

David Duchovny  52:04

Yes, I know, yeah, all right, man, I really appreciate it.

 

Steve Lukather  52:08

Thanks, David. It’s been a blast. Cheers.

 

David Duchovny  52:10

A few things I came away with after talking to Steve Lukather, which was, you know, had to stop myself, because I’m such a fan of his music, of his expertise that, you know, I was afraid, oh, I’m just talking about music. I’m just talking about music, you know, because I want to know, I want to know about this story, that story, the podcast, is about failure. I’m just talking like, Oh, my God, you’re fantastic. So forgive me if there was a little of that me just being a fan, or me just wanting to hear inside scoop on certain, you know, epics of music history that I lived through as a fan. You know, get the inside scoop is fun.

 

David Duchovny  53:26

Thanks so much for listening to Fail Better if you haven’t yet. Now is a great time to subscribe to Lemonada Premium. You’ll get bonus content, like my thoughts on conversations with guests including Alec Baldwin and Rob Lowe. Just hit the subscribe button on Apple podcasts or for all other podcast apps, head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe. That’s lemonadapremium.com.

 

CREDIT  53:47

Fail Better is a production of Lemonada Media in coordination with King Baby.  It is produced by Kegan Zema, Aria Bracci, and Dani Matias. Our engineer is Brian Castillo.  Our SVP of weekly is Steve Nelson. Our VP of new content is Rachel Neel.  Special thanks to Carl Ackerman, Tom Karpinski and Brad Davidson, the show’s executive produced by Stephanie Wittels Wachs, Jessica Cordova Kramer and me, David Duchovny.  The music is also by me and my band. Lovely Colin Lee. Pat McCusker, Mitch Stewart, Davis Rowan and Sebastian […].  You can find us online at @LemonadaMedia and you can find me @DavidDuchovny.  Follow Fail Better wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon music with your Prime membership.