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Alyah Chanelle Scott takes a breather from her nonstop actor-producer-director lifestyle (ever heard of The Sex Lives of College Girls?) to stop by The Dylan Hour. Snuggled up in our matching Broadway PJs — thank you, Playbill! — Alyah and I reminisce about our theater days, including when we were castmates on the road. We also take it upon ourselves to dream about the future… which happens to look a whole lot like Martha Stewart’s life.

You can now buy my debut book, Paper Doll: Notes from a Late Bloomer, wherever books are sold. Follow me on TikTok and Instagram at @dylanmulvaney. Stay up to date with Lemonada on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram at @LemonadaMedia.

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Transcript

SPEAKERS

Lemonada, Dylan Mulvaney, Sender 1, Glennon Doyle

Dylan Mulvaney  00:00

Hello and welcome back to the Dylan Hour. Is this an okay time? God, I hope it is, because this might be one of my favorite episodes of The Dylan Hour, and definitely the most vulnerable, because I am bringing on sort of a queen of vulnerability and just kindness and buoyancy with my favorite author and someone who got me through a lot in my life. And God, we talk, we cover a lot of different things, and I just want to get into it. So without further ado, I want to welcome on to the Dylan Hour, Glennon Doyle.

 

Glennon Doyle  02:11

Dylan, I’ve been waiting for this moment. I’ve been waiting to meet you for, oh, so many years. I and this is just the beginning. I know I joined to be here on a real couch with you one day. I know, I know, and I was trying to figure out today when you came into my consciousness, because now it’s just like this overlapping thing, where every person that I love is your friend, and so.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  02:36

I’m gonna take that as a huge compliment, because the people that you love are you’re very specific about and the people that I now love, which is something that I learned through you. I also feel like I learned how to like occupy space because of you. And like taking up space, and the fact that you’re willing to come on to my space today and share with me is like the greatest gift in the entire world.

 

Glennon Doyle  03:00

I’m delighted.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  03:01

I was going through a really rough time last year, and you reached out in a moment when I think I was at my lowest, and now I’m I’m back, baby. I’m feeling happier than ever, but just having that support from you, somebody that, like I’ve admired for so long, but then actually getting to, like, connect with you and talk with you is, like, I couldn’t believe it. But so on social media, how are you just scrolling? Are you kind of, how, how did like that? How do you see things? It’s, How do you monitor what you’re seeing and filtering these things?

 

Glennon Doyle  03:36

Yeah, that’s been, it’s been a long journey for me. I’m a highly sensitive person, and so I had this idea for a long time that I was just supposed to be able to handle social media life. I was supposed to be able to handle the input of the world, and so I would continue to expose myself to everything, even though it crushed me constantly because of this like tough supposed to self that I constantly think I’m about to become and never have. And so over time, in my last phase of recovery, which has been my most effective, I just have really started accepting who I am, not who I like, wish I would be, but who I actually am, and how things actually make me feel, and I really filter carefully, my social media, my internet, my t all of the input in my life I filter really.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  04:30

Into in the texting is the thing that you taught me was that I don’t have to text people back right away or at all.

 

Glennon Doyle  04:38

Dylan, whenever I get really frustrated or stressed about some perceived obligation, it really helps me to take a step back and think about whether I even agreed to that obligation. Like 20 years ago, people didn’t live in all day in response to whoever wanted to tag them like you’re it all. Day, like, just in reaction constantly, because they didn’t have folks.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  05:04

How crazy, though, that somebody can see when you read something.

 

Glennon Doyle  05:09

It’s like being  all the time.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  05:10

On Instagram. I’ve if I want to see something that, like somebody tagged me in or they sent me a message. I then they know that I saw it, and then it’s like a it’s like a countdown clock of if I’m going to or if. What does that mean? If you don’t, do you have a little bubbly next to you? I’ve got some bubbly. What is your bubbly?

 

Glennon Doyle  05:29

So my, you know, I’ve been sober for 47,000 years. So this is […] thank you. This is my favorite. We call it fancy water in my house. So boring. Water, obviously, is flat, fancy water is bubbly. Water. My favorite is grapefruit. It’s the spin drift. You know, spin drift, but that’s like, healthy for you. I think, I don’t, I mean, I think it’s like, fake healthy, like, I’m sure it’s not actually healthy. And I don’t know anything about this company. They could be awful. I’m not.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  05:56

I think that Laffy Taffy is a fruit. So in my mind, spin spin drift is about as crazy as I’m gonna get when it comes to, like, healthy things, right?

 

Glennon Doyle  06:04

There you go.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  06:05

I thought, because on the Dylan hour, we always have a little something to sip on. I think we’d call it bubbly girl water today. Because as I think people might assume that we’re both kind of, you know, we get vulnerable, we get serious, but we’re also kind of fun. I think we’re fun. How do you shift from going from like your bubbly self to then, like, when people expect the serious vulnerability from you.

 

Glennon Doyle  06:27

I’m constantly back and forth, back and forth. I don’t understand anything. If it’s not funny, like, I think life is all the hard stuff is absurdly hilarious. It’s just all life is ridiculously hard, and that what makes it funny.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  06:44

And then I feel like, if I’ve lived in the the hard for too long, I then get I have to, like, make a joke, or I have to do something to lighten the tone a bit. And that’s also, you know, occupying space. I feel like I feel too guilty about if I’m like, taking something too vulnerable for a while, then I’m like, oh, I need to not tell people how I actually feel.

 

Glennon Doyle  07:06

Yeah, that’s like, when you’re texting people text me something really serious and then write lol at the end. Yes. Like, we can’t take the sincerity, so we have to, like, punctuate it with something.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  07:21

That’s like just, JK, and so a big thing that we’re doing here after our first sip is the bitter and sweet of the week. And if you need a second to think about it.

 

Glennon Doyle  07:32

You go, first.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  07:34

Okay, I would say that my bitter is I feel like I have sort of outgrown certain habits and took a major step forward in a lot of ways, creatively and, like, psychologically, and now I’m starting to go back into, like my sad girl era a little bit, and I find myself taking like, two big steps back and in leaning more into sort of these comfortable habits that aren’t good for me. And it’s scary, because I know that progress has been made, but it almost feels like, like nothing happened, like it’s, it’s especially, I think, when you do a project, or you release something that you’re so proud of, and then it’s over. You almost forget that it exists in a way, like I did this play, and it was the happiest time in my life, and now that it’s not happening, you know, for a bit, it feels like Did it ever happen at all? But I think the suite for my week is knowing that I do have things to look forward to. My book, my play will happen again. I think that’s what’s really screwed about social media, is you feel like every single day you have to be putting something out there, and unless, if you don’t, you’re not, you know, relevant or special or people don’t care about you anymore. And it is cool to finally have these projects that I’ve been working on for years, to then be like, Oh, but wait till you know this comes out, and hopefully that wave will I can write it a little longer. But is that something that you’ve experienced like when you release a book and then it’s like, what? What now? Or how long do you live in that high.

 

Glennon Doyle  09:18

Absolutely, but the older I get and the longer I live in this creative world, the more I feel like people like Adele and Lord have it figured out, like I trust and like people who make something deep and wide and beautiful and take their time and go away and don’t feel the scarcity of being relevant every day, and then come back with something that’s true and real and an offering, and then go away again. Because what I have found when I succumb, which is often to the pressure to be relevant every day. Me to be doing something, to be offering something all the time, because my entire life is a back and forth between this energy of leave me alone and I feel left out. Yes, just back zero to 100 all the time. But it’s like this. It’s different to offer something daily or weekly or monthly, it’s shallow. They’re just more shallow offerings than the ones that come when you trust yourself and your art enough to go away and have the transformation and depth that real art requires and then come back with that and it’s just withstanding that that like scarcity in the air of, you know what it is? My therapist called it the other day is, she said, Glenn, and you need some more object permanence. Like, you know how babies think? Like, when some when they close their eyes, they disappear. Like, just because no one’s paying attention to you right now doesn’t mean you don’t exist. Glennon, like, it’s okay, go away, make your stuff and come back, right? I get that, but.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  11:07

In Adele, like, I think she just because she finished out her Adele world sort of concert and and she was like, I don’t know when you’re gonna see me next, and we don’t, but she gave a hell of a show. And that’s like, I think when you’re doing it, you put it all out there.

 

Glennon Doyle  11:23

Yeah, and she said, I think I’ve been thinking about this every day. She said, I’ve built this beautiful life, and now I want to go live it. What’s the point of building all the things if we never sink in and say it’s good enough and enjoy all of the beauty of the actual lives we work so hard to build. I think it’s, I think she’s a really great example of not succumbing to scarcity.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  11:46

Okay, I’m gonna try to not succumb to the scarcity. Now have you had a minute? Do you think you might have a bitter and sweet of the week?

 

Glennon Doyle  11:52

Yeah, I think it’s, it’s a little bit similar to yours, and it’s kind of dramatic. So I’ll just say it in a simple way.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  11:59

I love drama.

 

Glennon Doyle  12:00

Okay, so the bitter is that I kind of like I’ve been really doing so well and strongly with my recovery this last two years, and then just in this past month, I’ve really back, slid a little bit, and that has sucked, and I felt very lost and kind of like what you were saying in terms of, wait, what happened? Did I ever even recover? I’ve forgotten everything. I’m fucked again, etc, etc. And then I realized the sweet is that the other day I sat down and I figured out why I let myself get for me, it’s all has to do with eating. I think everybody has, I’m I’ve considered myself lucky that it’s something that’s so obvious that I can, like, see on my body. I can feel I actually stop eating when, uh, when I cut my Abby calls it when I get weird again and I never really know why it’s been happening for freaking 45 years like but this time, I figured out that I had started making decisions again that were outside of my desire. I Dylan had made these really strong, important decisions that I was going to pull back on, some things that I was going to like, live my delicious little life and not sign contracts, not do, not do these things that like that some people could handle. But for me, require me to build up this like armor that I don’t want to have to live with, like, I want to build a life that supports the softest version of myself. But because of scarcity, I had started abandoning myself again that you shouldn’t have, right? And so I was doing that again, and I was making decisions that were outside of that, like important decision that I had made, to take care of myself. So the sweet is that I figured it out. I would not have figured it I would have gone on for another year. I would have gotten lost or and lost, or I would have been and so.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  14:13

How’d you find it?

 

Glennon Doyle  14:14

Well, I was sitting, I was in therapy, actually, and I was reporting what had happened, and my my therapist said, okay, but like, a month ago, we were all right. We were you were gonna make this decision. You remember you were happy because of this and this and this. And I realized, oh my God, those are the things I was going back on. And so immediately after the therapy session, I called. I made some really serious, important calls to say, Nope, I’m not doing it. Nope, nope, nope. I disappointed a bunch of people. I let down three different people that I don’t want to let down. And then I felt okay, and I was able to start eating again, and now I feel alive again.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  14:56

And was the did the. Sphere of, like, telling these people, was it because you didn’t want to upset anyone, like it was, was it the people pleaser in you?

 

Glennon Doyle  15:07

I think that it wasn’t. I think a little bit, I think more it was the fear of irrelevance of if other I always think, Well, if there’s an opportunity in front of me, if everybody else would want that opportunity, then I should do I should want it. Like, if it’s on the table, other people would die for that thing. Like, of course I should do it. And I’m like, that’s not there’s I can Dylan. I can just feel when I’m making a disembodied decision. Like, yes, it’s like, it’s totally disembodied. I’m like, it’s like, when I go to the grocery store and I buy a bunch of freaking kale and I get it home, and Abby’s like, do you want me to just throw this kale directly in the trash, or should we put it in the fridge first and pretend we’re the kind of people who are getting kale? You’ve got, like, I’m making decisions about this fake person I am not. And when I actually get in my body and I think, do I want that? Even if everybody else would want it, I don’t want it.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  16:10

Honey, it’s time for a little ad break. So don’t go anywhere.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  18:20

When I was I was listening to your audio book, of you talked about writing a previous book and and then said going to promote it, and then want, then realizing, like, oh, this doesn’t feel as good, and I think it needs to be something different. And I was going through a very similar situation last year. Was that a really crazy decision for you to be making?

 

Glennon Doyle  18:48

Yeah, I mean, Dylan, I was, it’s weird to think back then, but when I was writing love warrior, I was just really entrenched in evangelical Christianity. I was a Sunday school teacher. My community was all Christian women, and I wrote love warrior as a really a marriage redemption book, a story, because I had found out that my husband had been cheating on me our whole marriage, and that was a doozy. And then, you know, in the Christian.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  19:24

Oh, this is a sip and spill. We were in the sip and spill of it all now.

 

Glennon Doyle  19:29

We are I mean, in the Christian world, that’s like the pressure to whatever is called just find grace and forgive is heavy. And that is the story of that book. And then, and it was a big book, it was picked as Oprah’s book club, so there was a lot of pressure on the story. And then at the first event that I went to to launch love warrior, I met Abby so it was six weeks before the book came out, and I had to talk about, like, disappointing everybody else while rocking the boat. I had to, I mean, I had to call Oprah and be like, Okay, so here’s the thing, actually, our book, our redemption book, I’m actually not. I’m gonna follow this love that I have with this woman. And, you know, harder than that was telling my children and all of it so and you know, people told me, I mean my people I love in my in my who are still in my life, career wise, said, this will be the end of your career forever, like you can do this, but this will be the end.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  20:44

Honey, I don’t I’m looking at you right now, and I don’t think that’s the case.

 

Glennon Doyle  20:50

But that’s the thing, Dylan, it’s like, what’s so wonderful and beautiful about you and is that we don’t need people To stay the same, like we don’t. That’s not what’s trustworthy. What’s trustworthy is to just tell the truth of who you are, and then when the truth changes, tell that truth, the trouble we get in is when we tell the truth of who we are, and then that becomes some kind of caste, like we have to stay in that thing. Yes, that’s not even true. That’s not the way life works. Life has changed.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  21:24

And I think social media only helps prop up that, that initial truth that then can’t form into other truths. Because I remember the first time I like cursed on social media. Everyone was like what you like. They couldn’t believe it. And then now I think there’s nothing sustainable about having to be, you know, the bublis, sort of infantilized version of femininity. And something I really wanted to talk to you today, and kind of the theme of our episode, is sisterhood and and I think I, I’ve, obviously, I love femininity. I love connecting with women. I love feeling those friendships and those that sisterhood in my life. But I feel often very guilty about that sisterhood. Also, we share a little Irish sisterhood. Did you know that?

 

Glennon Doyle  22:16

I do now? I did not.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  22:18

Top in the morning to you, honey, you’re from the North.  You’re very Irish, right?

 

Glennon Doyle  22:23

Very Irish.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  22:24

Okay, now tell me when you think of like the idea of sisterhood. What does it mean to you?

 

Glennon Doyle  22:32

That’s such an interesting question. Because, well, as you know, the concept of gender is so baffling to me, like, even, even the word sisterhood, I get stuck on because, understand.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  22:46

Yes, who’s entitled to it.

 

Glennon Doyle  22:48

What? And I’m not even difficult, like, I truly don’t there are some concepts that I cannot get a hold on, and I don’t think it’s because I’m stupid. I think it’s because they are concepts that are nonsensical. Anyone who thinks they have a grip on it has, like, some kind of false sense of security or dogma. Um, okay, I think sisterhood to me. I mean, I guess for me, like sibling hood would be a better, a better word, I guess it means well, because.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  23:25

You do have a real sister.

 

Glennon Doyle  23:27

I do have a real sister. Yeah, yes.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  23:29

And so sibling hood is like the literal, you know, sort of the the Sister to Sister connection that you do have with your sister. But and then, I guess sisterhood can also be more figurative, though, like of like, when you think of your female friendships, is there a better like word that you can think of?

 

Glennon Doyle  23:52

I mean, I guess I want to live in a way that, like when I reached out to you, I find life to be so difficult, I really it’s not an easy road for me. And retweet. What I’ve learned is that the only thing that makes it a little bit easier is that if when I’m struggling, not when I’m at a high. Everybody wants to be friends when you’re at a high, like everybody like that’s not even that’s nothing. But when I’m not popular, when I’m not having a good moment, when I’m struggling, I never forget the people who reach out then, amen. I think that is sisterhood to me.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  24:44

That was when I had a lot of, you know, very shiny people in my life because of this following that I grew and then when shit went down, it was interesting to see who was there and how interesting that like, not only the. People that stayed there, but you were one of the few that actually, like ran to me and said, hi, are you okay in a way that I would have expected a lot of my loved one, you know, the people that I thought loved me to do, but they were scared of what that meant if they showed support, especially publicly. And I think sisterhood is something that I feel really it actually makes me really feel nice to know that you kind of also are struggling with this concept, because I get very guilty. I feel guilty because I I assume that every specifically, like cis women are love the concept, and then don’t want me to be a part of it. You know, they don’t feel like trans women can occupy that space. Or if we do, it needs to be this very delicate sort of walk of the line of what’s inserting yourself too much into womanhood and sisterhood, and what’s not enough, and who’s trying too much, and who’s, you know not. And I think I’ve sort of thrown my hands up at trying so desperately to be a part of something that doesn’t always feel like it wants me. But do you at times feel like you aren’t included?

 

Glennon Doyle  26:19

I have never this is an ad nauseam conversation that Abby and I have had. I have never in my entire life, not one time felt a true belonging in a group, except for my teeny little family in this house, which is why, as my kids are getting older and leaving, I’m having a full on freak out, a crisis. It’s not, yeah, it’s not.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  26:45

The one group that you were like, I could lead. This is, is, wait, are they moving out for college?

 

Glennon Doyle  26:51

One is a senior in college. One is she’s just graduated from high school, and she’s doing music, so she’s on. They’re doing what they should be doing.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  27:01

Okay, so I’m moving in, is what it looks like you move in, and I’m never leaving the house ever, and we’re just gonna sit on the couch. And, yeah, maybe that’s what sisterhood.

 

Glennon Doyle  27:13

Yeah, that is. But Dylan, I just want you to know that I just believe that there are some people who struggle with belonging. My sister and I call it like dissolving into a group. It’s usually I know several people who have this feeling, and I think it’s people who have a very strong individuality. I really think we kind of balance back and forth between, do I get belonging, or do I get individuality? And for me, for many reasons, I panic a little bit. I can’t I have a hard time fitting in anywhere and whatever you’re talking about, the version of sisterhood that looks like a commercial or, like, a book club, or, like, yeah, that thing, I don’t have that. I don’t have a group. I don’t have, like, a bunch of people that I call and come over on Sunday and we, like, braid each other’s hair. Like, I don’t have that version. I have a few friends that I would die for. They’re separate. They don’t have not even friends with each other, and there’s only like three of them.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  28:29

It freaks me out when like, friends from separate places sometimes get together.

 

Glennon Doyle  28:37

It’s scary.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  28:39

A wedding or a funeral. I’m like, what? Which one is that? Because I do sometimes, because some people aren’t supposed to meet. I don’t think, you know some I think sometimes a little separation isn’t the worst thing totally but as far as your your actual biological sister, tell me about her.

 

Glennon Doyle  29:00

Well, she’s probably one of the reasons that I’ve never forced belonging with anyone else, because and I used to be so confused about when my friends needed each other, because I always got every single thing that I needed. So I thought from my sister, she’s three years younger than me, she doesn’t function like a younger sister. She functions like an older sister, which is something that happens in families where one kid is addicted. So I was a raging addict from the time I was 10 years old. So because of that, she kind of became the caretaker. She is still the caretaker 40 years.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  29:37

Amanda, right? Amanda, yeah. And Amanda co host the podcast with you. Sometimes she sure does.

 

Glennon Doyle  29:43

She’s a genius. She’s the fiercest, smartest, kindest person I know. We were actually in a car this week because my aunt is really, really sick, and we had to go sit with her. And we were driving home, and we just, my sister just said. I cannot believe that there’s going to be a point on this earth when one of us has to leave the other first. Like, I don’t have any recollection or consciousness of the of life like without her, yeah, yeah. So that sisterhood I get, but she, but, but like, but that’s she has to love me. That’s the thing. I can’t find belonging where people can make choices. I can only find belonging winners who are contractually obligated to love me yeah.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  30:36

And, but, and your sister has been kind of going through it as well lately with a lot of health things, but most, I think it all relates back to advocating for yourself, and that was a huge theme of Amanda’s life recently.

 

Glennon Doyle  30:50

Saved her life. I mean, she went for her mammograms. They were all clear because of some genetic testing we had because of a family member, she had this, like one thing they couldn’t explain on her genetic testing, but they said, it’s fine, don’t worry about it. She insisted upon a ultrasound. And long story short, she kept insisting. They kept saying, it’s fine, you’re fine. And then she kept insisting she just had this hunch, and they ended up doing an MRI, and they found that her breast was actually full of cancer, but because of her density, if you have a high density breasts, high density breasts, it shows up white in a mammogram, and cancer is white, so you can’t see it. It’s just an insanity of the medical system that is, of course, not set up to serve women in any way. So her self advocacy following her hunch, it’s kind of a version. It’s exactly a version of what we talked about before. It’s just amazing when you figure out no one else is going to take responsibility for your life. It sounds so simple, but it’s not simple. It took me 50 years to figure it out. It’s like, whenever I get bitter that I’m being dragged in too many directions, or that I have to do, have to do something that I I get mad at other people for making me do the thing, and then and I get bitter. And then phase two is my body starts to start shutting down. It gets exhausted. I can’t function. And then stage three is when I remember that no one is supposed to take care of me except for me. And then I go and make all my decisions. And everyone goes on and lives. And so sisters version was that. That was her version of self advocacy, and she saved her literal own life.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  32:44

Wow, and so, how is she right now?

 

Glennon Doyle  32:47

Perfect and wonderful. We went through like a slice of hell and not knowing, and it was really scary for about six months, and she just got extremely lucky, and it was all cleared out, and she had wonderful surgeons, and now she’s absolutely fine.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  33:04

Oh, that makes you so happy. I would like to meet her one day.

 

Glennon Doyle  33:07

No, I hope I know you. Well, you will love her. Okay, she’ll be a good sister to you.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  33:12

I see that’s where I think I really I have a half sister, Stacy. Hi, Stacy, but you know, she’s my sister, and she’s a bit older than me, and we, so we didn’t really grow up the same way that you were talking about, of like, knowing life without the other and we, you know, also, my parents were divorced, so I was always at a different house. And I think there was, like, when I transitioned, there was a guilt associated especially I think my family, I just I couldn’t believe that they were gonna have to make all these shifts, you know, saying my daughter, my my sister, my, you know, she and and, but specifically, more than anything, was it was my mom and my sister, because I felt so guilty that like, I was going to be expecting them to view me as equals, or like, I think I was I talk a little bit about this in my book of like, kind of almost, I think some queer people and trans people, we pull away from family because we’re so scared that, you know, even if they do accept us, that it’s gonna it’s too much to ask of someone that that is that loves you to then shift and see you in that different light. But it’s so possible, and I think, you know, it’s been a long road trying to get there with my family. But was that difficult for the family, the women in your life, to kind of get behind seeing you as a queer person.

 

Glennon Doyle  34:49

I mean, okay, a couple things, because as you’re talking about that with your family, what I’m thinking is that is a version. In and maybe in some ways, a more dramatic and difficult version, I’ll give you that of what every single adult has to do every single like the thing that I have found that has kept me most trapped and small is the family role that I was cast into in my family of origin, everybody in the world is cast into a family role. Okay, you’re the this one, you’re the that one, you’re the that. That’s how families function.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  35:29

One second, could we turn off the air? Sorry, I’m getting a little chilly.

 

Glennon Doyle  35:34

Good job, Dylan.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  35:35

I know I asked for what I needed. Yeah. Oh, people, it’s starting. Oh, my God. Okay. Glenn, your What was your family role?

 

Glennon Doyle  35:47

Okay, so I was the sick one. That was my job. And, you know, there’s a lot of versions of this role. Some people call it the scapegoat. The important thing is that the sick one stays sick. So for me, it didn’t matter what that sickness was. It could be bulimia, it could be depression, it could be alcoholism, it could be anorexia, it could be intense anxiety. What mattered was that I stayed fucked up. Because what happens then is that everybody else organizes themselves around that person, like all of the family’s dysfunction can be understood as just inside this one person, one person is I? Is I embodying all the fucked upness of the whole family? Okay? What is fascinating is that every person has this like hero’s journey that they can go on based on the role that they were cast in in order to become fully human. All right, but it’s so hard because when I first started to consider, I mean, Dylan, I used to write, in my first memoir, I wrote these words in ink, I was born broken.  I was born it’s in writing. I can’t take it back. Who’s born broken?

 

Dylan Mulvaney  36:59

And that’s why you have a lot of books that to after, to prove otherwise.

 

Glennon Doyle  37:04

I like everything’s just a retraction of because that’s what life is, right? You just like, keep looking back at with different lenses better.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  37:13

I feel like I’m gonna find you in Barnes and Noble, just like sharpening out that line from every single one.

 

Glennon Doyle  37:20

I know. But it’s interesting, because when you break out of your role, the whole family goes into chaos. Because when you change your role, everybody else has to change their roles. And it’s it’s hard, and it rocks the boat, and it’s very scary. But I do believe that that is a version of what every adult, most of us don’t by the way, most people stay in their family roles forever. They actually believe they’re the sick one, they actually believe they’re the hero. They actually believe that they’re this one dimensional character, and they never get to expand into their whole, full humanity. But that’s what adulthood is. It’s just reject, rejecting the original family role. Yeah, I have felt it.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  38:00

And then do you feel like, now you Does your family have roles right now? Or like, do have you tried to, kind of, like, not let that happen because you’ve been able to call it out?

 

Glennon Doyle  38:13

Yeah, so here’s what happened to me and I, I wonder if other people will relate to this. I bet they will. Is that I called it out. And then shit got really weird with my family. Like it every holiday was like, it was like, there was this huge elephant in the room that I couldn’t take back. And so then guess what I did? I got sick again. I was like, oh, like, I didn’t do this consciously, but the discomfort was so apparent with the whole family that it felt easier to be like, forget it. Never mind. I’ll go back to my role. I’ll be the sick when we can all just, you know, turn back towards me and figure this out. So then I got sick again for another year before I figured out what I was doing.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  38:59

It’s like, you’ve like, identified the stereotypes of like, the Sex and the City characters and what they would say, and then it’s like a black mirror episode where they don’t know how to function anymore because they go to just be stereotypes of themselves. It’s scary to call something like that. It’s such a big concept, especially if somebody isn’t ready to hear that. And your family members, for example.

 

Glennon Doyle  39:22

Yeah, because when you’re saying, when a kid is when a grown up kid is saying, Actually, I don’t think that I was just born broken like I think there is a lot of toxicity and sickness, but I think it’s belongs to all of us. I don’t think it can be explained away just as my problem. I think it’s a family problem. That’s not what they were saying when I was young, when when a kid got sick, they just put the kid in therapy. I had to go to a mental hospital by myself and then go back to the same like. So the problem is that when you say actually, I don’t think I was born broken. I think I was just born into a family, like all families, where there was a lot of toxins and. And I breathed in those toxins, and that’s what made me sick. I don’t think it was me. I think it was all of us. When you say that everybody loses their mind, because that wasn’t the story, that wasn’t the narrative, right? That’s like, then everybody has to look at their own shit, and people do not want to do that.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  40:19

But now you’re, you are someone that, I think is known as, like, helping others call out their own shit and, and I think what is kind of odd about the that role then, is that people tend to put you up on a pedestal. Or, you know, people like, I’ve seen people refer to as, like, the patron saint of, like, female empowerment. Or, you know what? Like, some of these really intense titles I and they like to project that onto me at times, as well, too, as far like a Trans activist, which I’m like, Wait, I’ve never called myself an activist in my entire life. Like, when people say that to you, I was curious, just like, selfishly, I wanted to know, like, how does that make you? Does it make you feel weird? Or do you? Are you like? So grateful for it? How does How do you respond? I shut down.

 

Glennon Doyle  41:07

Because it doesn’t make any sense. There’s nothing real about it, like I, I will say that. So I go for a walk every day, and often I’ll be walking on the little sidewalk in front of our house. It’s like this big path, and very often someone will stop me, who’s actually listening to the pod, and they will hug me, and there’s like a very real moment of like realness, like something that they were going through, I was talking about, and that made them feel less alone, that shit lands with me. I like people who are just always themselves, meaning they’re different every day. I’m not. I’m different all the days i i can’t even put a word after I am without getting itchy because I don’t know what I’m going to be tomorrow. I don’t know, and I need the freedom to be constantly evolving to be whatever I need to be right now. So I can barely even say I am Glennon, so I’m certainly not going to relate to I am a patron saint, a female impact. Way too much labeling.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  42:17

Right? Yeah, I think about the I am statements of like, well, like, I am a woman now and, and I think about the my relationship to femininity, and I’m so scared that, like, the moment that I claimed that title, like, How can my womanhood change? And how can it evolve past this thing that, especially what I struggle with is like, because obviously people took to a specific version of what that I am was when I was putting out those videos. And now I feel very differently about my womanhood in 1000 other ways, in really rich ways, and beautiful ones and dark ones and sad ones that but I I’m so scared, because I don’t think that they’re gonna enjoy those that I am that woman as much as they did before.

 

Glennon Doyle  43:09

And so Dylan, that’s womanhood.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  43:13

Fuck.

 

Glennon Doyle  43:14

Everybody on earth wants you to be a shiny, two dimensional caricature, yeah. And then when you introduce any sort of complexity, darkness, difference, blah, blah, blah, the whole world fakes the fuck out. So, yeah, I feel that too.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  43:31

Did your relationship with Abby kind of free you from a little bit of that being like, so close with another woman that like you didn’t have to like it wasn’t as much in your own home.

 

Glennon Doyle  43:48

Okay, so here’s a funny story I’m going to tell you that I’ve never told anyone. Because when you say that, you would think that right you would think right away, you look at Abby, she’s so like free and no gender norms there. And when I first met Abby, our first night together, I flew we were still very much on the down low. I had told my family, my kids, but nobody in the public. I flew to see her, and we were going to be in the room for the first time. We had already both blown up our entire lives to be together, and we had not spent more than 10 minutes in a room together. Okay? Yes, this is very intense, high stakes. We were in a hotel room. She had to leave to go do the ESPYs. She had to like, accept, it’s like the Oscars for the sports people or something. She had to like, accept a statue with.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  44:39

Ddo you think of yourself as a wag.

 

Glennon Doyle  44:41

What is a wag?

 

Dylan Mulvaney  44:43

A wife and or and girlfriend of like, sports players?

 

Glennon Doyle  44:49

Um, I guess so.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  44:51

We gotta get you a reality show.

 

Glennon Doyle  44:53

I feel like you and all the WAGs my entire reality show, you gotta continue GO, GO Dylan. They’d be like, she’s still on the. Couch, water. She’s going to the bathroom. She’s back on the couch.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  45:06

Um, okay, so high she.

 

Glennon Doyle  45:09

She leaves to do the ESPYs. She leaves me a present on the the bed. I open up the present and Dylan. It’s these, if they were not seven inch […]  heels, I don’t know they were the highest heels I have ever seen in my life. They I couldn’t. And I thought I was like, I did not see this coming. This is like, not the lesbian culture I was expecting. And I always thought there was gonna be Birkenstocks in that box, something comfortable, at least it was like it could not have been a more stereotypical feminine shit Dylan. I tried so hard the whole time she was God. I tried to put them on my feet. I was trying to walk, or practice walking around the hotel, because I didn’t want her to know that I didn’t know. I think we’ve laughed about it so much, and I think she was so entrenched in this, like, professional sports world where you, like, buy your girlfriend this, like, fancy shit, this, like, hyper feminine versus masculine this. And I was like, What is this shit? So it was so interesting. We had to, like, we were two women, and we were still very much unraveling.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  46:25

Yes, and then what do you still own the heels?

 

Glennon Doyle  46:30

No, I don’t know what the hell I did with those. I just never wanted to see them again. No. And then over time, we did undo that, and Abby has been extremely helpful to me in I used to say to her, Dylan, I would I was so disembodied. I had no idea what I wanted, how to feel good, how to feel like myself. All I did was look out at the world and decide what I should look like, what I should present myself as was I? What I should I used to look at her and say, can you do I look comfortable? And she’d go, Glennon, I can’t tell you if you look comfortable. That’s like a thing. People have to decide for themselves.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  47:12

That’s the craziest question I’ve ever heard in my entire life.

 

Glennon Doyle  47:16

That is a disembodied human being, right? Just, it doesn’t matter if I am comfortable. Can you just tell me, if I look, look it, because that’s what I’m going for.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  47:24

Because there’s no chance in hell that I will ever be but if I look at that is, oh my god, well, and Honey, I’ve started now dating these straight men, and I find myself putting on the Louboutins, but then taking them off because I’m like, Oh God, am I taller than them now? Or, you know, like, there’s so many weird moments where I then try to, like, perform femininity, when, in a way, like, my transition has been a way to, like, break down all those things, and then I it’s like, I sign up for it even further.

 

Glennon Doyle  47:56

What is femininity like? What when you think of femininity? What do you think of I’m so fascinated with this question.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  48:03

I feel like it’s funny because it’s a buoyancy. It’s a in which what I don’t want it I to come off as is, like, it’s so funny, because now I’m like, listen, I can see the Daily Mail. You know, Dylan Mulvaney believes femininity to be flightiness, but I feel my most grounded when I’m in the air or when I’m in water, or when I feel light on my toes and and that’s where I like to actually live, is in, in that the the softness of of feeling light and and that when I am my most feminine it, which is honestly, like, I think there’s very few people in this world who love the color pink more than I do. And I and when I came out, honey, I told everybody knew that, and then I was told that that was a bad thing, you know, and that was something to be embarrassed of. And so started to scale it back. And I think femininity now is any moment where I feel sort of like the softness and the lightness to life, and it has very little to do with my appearance even, or my my voice, or the way that I my body, even, you know, my boobs, like, that isn’t a part of my femininity. It’s, it’s actually, it’s like the way that I occupy the air around me.

 

Glennon Doyle  49:35

I freaking love that so much. In all of my conversations, I’ve never heard anybody say it’s about buoyancy. I feel that I don’t I feel that in my body. That’s so good.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  49:47

Maybe are we the we’re the Sisterhood of the buoyancy, feminine.

 

Glennon Doyle  49:51

There you go.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  49:52

Oh, but oh, that means sob, sisterhood of buoyancy. Uh oh.

 

Glennon Doyle  49:57

It’s also funny, because the word boy is in there, in there. So which is cool. I like that.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  50:01

Oh, I kind of love that too.

 

Glennon Doyle  50:02

It’s like it’s the theme of this conversation, too. It’s just about a resistance to rigidity. I don’t think it has anything to do with what we think it has to do with.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  50:16

Oh, I have another question. How about when you did? Oh, my God. I almost said transition. I meant when you almost when you entered into your lesbian hood. Was there ever a moment where you then felt like you needed to be more masked, like, was there ever a part of you that was like, Ooh, I want to Butch it up a little bit?

 

Glennon Doyle  50:35

Yes, I have some humiliating pictures from a red carpet in which I decided that I was going to all at once embrace all of my lesbianness, and if I have, like, this huge flannel on, and can I google that? I wish you wouldn’t. I’m sure you will. I It looked like a caricature of the other side, like it was ridiculous.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  50:57

This will be the blast from the past segment where we now insert a picture of you on the red carpet in like, Were you in? Like a suit?

 

Glennon Doyle  51:05

No, it was like a big flannel, honey, huge jeans and boots. It looked so straight from the cabin in the woods. It was pretty comfortable, though I did, I do remember having a good night, and

 

Dylan Mulvaney  51:17

you didn’t even have to ask, Do I look comfortable? Because you just were so maybe you are a little more Butch than than we all do. I love it. Oh, I think it’s such a gender fuckery when, like, I go out and like a suit and like, slicked little, you know, I feel like Big Daddy for a second. I usually like to be mommy, but there’s, there’s sometimes a moment where I think it’s, it’s in, funny enough, my best friend Lily finds me the most feminine when I don’t really have makeup on and I’ve Oh God, I want you to meet Lily. You’re gonna fucking love her, but it’s so it’s so beautiful to have a woman in your life see that version of you as the most feminine.

 

Glennon Doyle  51:57

Oh yes, I get that. Yeah, is much more feminine than I am in spirit, really. Yes, I am very feminine in appearance, but she is way soft, like whatever we attribute to she’s more open, she’s more generous, she’s softer, she’s more buoyant. It’s interesting. Her vibe is more feminine, but her appearance is more masculine, and I’m the opposite.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  52:29

Well, I guess is that the makings of a good relationship.

 

Glennon Doyle  52:32

Could be, it could be, whatever it is. It’s working.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  52:35

You know anyone for me?

 

Glennon Doyle  52:38

Well, I only know, like three people, so I’ll check in with them. I

 

Dylan Mulvaney  52:41

let I’m i That’s perfect, because chances are, if you enjoy them, I will.

 

Glennon Doyle  52:47

You know, I vetted them.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  52:51

Babes will be right back with Glennan Doyle after a word from our sponsors.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  54:11

It’s very clear that we’ve already done a lot of over sharing. So why don’t we push you a little bit more to our over share? Don’t care segment, great is a lightning round of 10 questions. You’re on the clock. It’s going to be two minutes countdown, and I’m just going to ask you a series of questions, and you answer them as quickly as you can.

 

Glennon Doyle  54:40

Okay.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  54:41

Deal.

 

Glennon Doyle  54:42

Deal.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  54:42

Oh, my God, are you ready?

 

Glennon Doyle  54:43

I’m ready.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  54:44

Okay, it’s happening. What is your number one favorite way to relax?

 

Glennon Doyle  54:48

Trash TV.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  54:49

Favorite color versus color used most in your home decor.

 

Glennon Doyle  54:55

Purple, blue.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  54:58

I turned 27 this year. What something you wish you could tell your 27 year old self.

 

Glennon Doyle  55:03

It’s gonna be okay.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  55:04

What’s your comfort TV show ?

 

Glennon Doyle  55:06

The Real Housewives?

 

Dylan Mulvaney  55:08

What’s a habit of yours that you wish you could instantly break?

 

Glennon Doyle  55:12

Judging, always, judging.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  55:15

Of all the ages you’ve been what’s the best age.

 

Glennon Doyle  55:18

Now, 48.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  55:20

What is the last thing that made you belly laugh?

 

Glennon Doyle  55:23

Voice messages from Liz Gilbert.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  55:26

Lesbian trope that you fall under.

 

Glennon Doyle  55:29

Oh, we just never stop talking, talking, talking, talking. We can’t it’s not enough to understand each other. We have to overstand each other.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  55:36

One of your favorite guests that you’ve had on your podcast?

 

Glennon Doyle  55:40

Oh, I just had Alex.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  55:42

Oh, Edison?

 

Glennon Doyle  55:43

Yeah.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  55:45

Um, last time you cried happy tears.

 

Glennon Doyle  55:48

Oh, my daughter. She’s on a tour, on her first tour, so she’s on stage singing to people. And I stand there and listen, I’m her roadie Dylan. We Abby and I are on an 18 city tour right now. I’m only on a break for two days.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  56:01

Oh my god.

 

Glennon Doyle  56:02

And I go, I stand there, and she sings.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  56:04

Who is your teenage crush?

 

Glennon Doyle  56:06

John Jovi.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  56:09

I don’t know who that is.

 

Glennon Doyle  56:11

Dylan, could you just say you don’t know who that is?

 

Dylan Mulvaney  56:14

Cold plunges or nah?

 

Glennon Doyle  56:17

Nah for me, yes for Abby.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  56:20

What is the hardest part about writing a book?

 

Glennon Doyle  56:23

Everything, it’s the worst thing in the world. It’s impossible.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  56:26

Okay, in that we have, I mean, honey, I need 78 podcasts based on every single question I just asked you. So I guess we’re going to a Jon Bon Jovi concert together one day. Oh, we must. That might be my introduction. I What’s it? What can you give me a little hum of maybe one of his big tunes?

 

Glennon Doyle  56:46

Oh, we’re halfway there.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  56:53

Okay, I know that song.

 

Glennon Doyle  56:55

Okay.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  56:57

Now I just need to Google a picture.  But so was this. It’s but like a younger version of Jon Bon Jovi just really got it going for you.

 

Glennon Doyle  57:03

Yeah, I feel like any version now. I think when I think of my team, my crushes, they were all the long haired, like, you know, the bands, the Rockies, they all have to have that. So I think it might have been my gateway, like my acceptable, my acceptable embracing of the femininity early because I I had no there was no possibility of queerness. For me, I didn’t know x single queer person. There was no queer people in my neighborhood, my school, my dad, I just so I think that that may have been the way that I got in the door.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  57:37

Okay, and you see, I think the long hair for me was, I was attracted to long haired men because I wanted the long hair, and then I wanted to be a woman. So, you know, it’s two sides of a different coin. That’s, and then, how about, wait, you just saw Alex Hedison, who we love. It’s, you’ve got this, like, you are kind of part of, like a lesbian mafia, in a way.

 

Glennon Doyle  57:59

It’s like, call ourselves a militia. Etheridge, a militia. Etheridge, is what we call ourselves.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  58:04

That’s what you call yourselves?

 

Glennon Doyle  58:06

The militia. Etheridge, yeah, any group of lesbians, yes.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  58:09

Oh, that’s really good. So I just need to get a girlfriend really quickly to join that.

 

Glennon Doyle  58:15

You are so welcome, Dylan.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  58:16

And then this is a biggie, though, because I feel like I’ve gotten so much from you that I need to be able to give back to you in other ways. You know, it needs to be an equal exchange. I’m friends with many real housewives. Are there any that you are, you know, and maybe you like to keep work and play separate. But is there anyone that you are like, if I could have it just like a meal or a little the conversation with which of the housewives Do you just adore?

 

Glennon Doyle  58:46

Well, Dylan, I think I just, I think one of the beauties of the Real Housewives for me is that they stay in my TV. I don’t know if they can, because.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  58:55

You know what, you seem to clean up your side of the street, pretty okay-ish right now. And I don’t know if it could bring in some fun chaos.

 

Glennon Doyle  59:04

I think I love the fun K I like contained chaos. For me, structure liberates so lots of chaos. But inside my TV is I can survive. But I think I’m a person who tries so hard, like I’m just such a try. Just try so hard, and I’m always trying to be good and do the do better? And I just there’s something that is so freeing to me to watch a bunch of women who are not even trying to be good. They are not even trying to be good. They are and.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  59:30

They’re trying to be bad.

 

Glennon Doyle  59:31

They’re trying to be bad. And I don’t hate it.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  59:35

Oh, it’s not what I got to tell you, though, being in those rooms with them, even when the cameras are off, they they’re still being bad. They’re still being bad, but in like, a very lovable way I got, oh, honey, we gotta have a dinner. I can’t. I got some good stories for you, um, but also maybe Are you be honest with us. Is one of these contracts that you had to like, retroactively turned. Von, were you going to join a real housewives franchise?

 

Glennon Doyle  1:00:02

No, one has ever invited I would be the most boring. Can you imagine i Let’s communicate directly. Let’s No, I would be the worst.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  1:00:12

I’ve thought about it a lot of like, if I was, like, a permanent fixture on that show, and what kind of tropes or stereotypes I would fall under. And I think were pretty similar in the way that we would probably just cry every single time a fight broke out and said every, you know, and Mean Girls were like, the there’s the she the girl gets up and she’s like, can’t we all just get along? I think that that would it would start to wait. Or we would, like, we’d hold it in, and then we would fuck it. Series Finale. We’d explode. You could do that like everything you ever thought about. Everyone would come out.

 

Glennon Doyle  1:00:44

We could analyze the shit out of them. I will give you some tea, which is that more than one real housewife who has been through the transition of being in a hetero and then switched out has contacted me secretly for guidance.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  1:01:03

So that’s who. Okay, so you’re the Whis, you’re the the lesbian, Real Housewife. Whisperer, I’m the celebrity trans kid. Whisperer, whenever somebody has a trans kid that in Hollywood, I always am like, Oh, I got this great meeting with someone. And then I show up and it’s like them holding the hand of a small child in like a Disney gown, saying, help. So that’s who’s in our DMS.

 

Glennon Doyle  1:01:26

Dylan, that’s the story of my life. A different version of that every time it’s always somebody getting sober or somebody who just figured out that they’re gay, that is my job on the planet is to walk people through those things. I didn’t sign up for it, but that is my job.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  1:01:44

Well, I’m going to send all all my people for those particular things your way. You got any trans is in your life, you send them mine. I’m so glad to know that. And then our last segment on the show, are you ready? Yeah, I’m ready. Okay, this is our last call confessions. We have a phone call from one of my lovely followers, and they’re gonna either confess something to us or give us a piece of it. We’re gonna ask for a piece of advice. I

 

Glennon Doyle  1:02:08

love it.

 

Sender 1  1:02:11

Hello, honey, is me getting top surgery? Blasphemy against God. Am I going to hell?

 

Dylan Mulvaney  1:02:21

A honey baby, Angel human that left this voicemail. I wish I could hug you right now, because I want you to know that I don’t think, I don’t think there’s anything blasphemous about you getting the care that you need and deserve. And I think if it’s any help to whoever you are out there. Actually, my transness has brought me a lot closer to God, and we’re an idea of a higher power. And I think the more that I really honor when I do things for my body and with my body, when it’s for me and not for anyone else, and not trying to please anyone else, when I have taken those steps to do so, I then look in the mirror, and I feel so much closer to who I was always supposed to be. And I would like to believe that if there is a higher power, a God, that they love that for me. And so I want you to go into this situation of you experiencing, hopefully, what will be a really affirming moment, and in your life with with nothing but excitement and joy and euphoria and trying to make it the most special experience it can be, and not one that’s that’s weighed down with baggage, because I got that religious baggage too, baby and and we can’t always take it with us, not, especially not into surgery.

 

Glennon Doyle  1:03:57

Yeah, and I would just add from me, I’m you’re hearing this from a former Sunday school teacher who has been part of churches her entire life and who feels still deeply, deeply connected to God. I just know. I just know, like, I’ve like, I know I’m alive, and talking to Dylan right now, that the God that I know in love is kind of like a parent God, a parenting God. And I can tell you love that as a parent, the most beautiful thing in the world is watching your kid live out loud exactly who they are. That’s the joy. That’s what parenting is. It’s just watching in awe and like the awe and I will get him. Try really hard not to start crying right now, but the ah gets bigger and and bolder, the bigger and bolder the kid gets, like the the braver the kid gets. I think this is why Abby always, we’re always trying to talk about why we tend to respect and love and admire queer and trans people more because and I and it’s not. It’s not just about the queerness or the transness. It’s because I have an immediate respect for anybody who I know has done the brave and hard work of becoming who they are when there is resistance to that becoming that is what I respect so the awe of seeing that in your own kid. I know that that’s what I know that that’s the pride and the joy of whatever God is, watching God’s children be brave enough to break the cultural mode and become who they were born to be.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  1:06:12

It’s watching your daughter sing on stage.

 

Glennon Doyle  1:06:14

It is, watching anybody, a friend, a kid, this collar really going inside themselves and blooming, yep, not just matching, not assimilating, not dying inside while they tow some line, but blooming from what was born inside The seed that only they know. So is ha if you are led to top surgery, is having top surgery blasphemous to God. If you are led to top surgery, having top surgery is communion with God. It’s celebratory. It’s becoming it’s a fulfillment […] go.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  1:07:01

Glennon, I think I maybe just had my favorite interview ever with someone.

 

Glennon Doyle  1:07:08

Me too, and I’m so glad we did this.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  1:07:12

I but I you promise we’ll get to talk again in our lives.

 

Glennon Doyle  1:07:16

You have my number. You text me and I will text you back, Dylan, that is how much I love you.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  1:07:22

Wow, and I’ll text you back. Do you like a voice note?

 

Glennon Doyle  1:07:26

I do like, I love a voice note.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  1:07:27

Okay, let’s move to that. Because I actually, I like to know where the inflection is going, Yes. And I really struggle with like, especially, you know, like, I just, I want a little reference in, in, in what’s happening.

 

Glennon Doyle  1:07:41

Yeah, and Dylan, you just keep being your buoyant, fresh self every damn day, and you just keep showing up exactly as you are, whoever you are that day yeah.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  1:07:54

And if you want to do another carpet in flannel, yeah, I’ll hold your hand. I’ll Plus I’ll plus one for that. I’ll wear the matching flannel gown version.

 

Glennon Doyle  1:08:06

Oh, God, I would love to see that.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  1:08:08

Oh my I just I adore you in in ways that I hope you know, and then other ways you will never will. But, um, thank you for who? Oh, my God, it’s so oh no, what I’ve never cried on the Dylan Hour. Yet it’s so crazy to get to talk with someone who has gotten you through a lot and you that you were that person for me so.

 

Glennon Doyle  1:08:32

Thank you. Love you. I love you. Thank you for this hour.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  1:08:35

Okay, you have a good rest of your day, and we love you here at the Dylan Hour.

 

Glennon Doyle  1:08:41

Love you back. Bye, everybody.

 

Dylan Mulvaney  1:08:43

Bye, Glennon.

 

CREDITS 1:08:47

Want even more of the Dylan Hour now is a great time to subscribe to Lemonada Premium. You’ll get bonus content, outtakes and more from conversations with fabulous guests like Joe Locke and Dylan’s dad, Jim Mulvaney, just hit the subscribe button on Apple podcasts, or for all other podcast apps, head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe. That’s lemonadapremium.com. The Dylan Hour is a production of Lemonada Media. Our supervising producer is Jess […]. Producers are Carmen Laura,Kegan Zema and Aria Bracci. Audio and video production and engineering by Jordan Lynn, Ivan Kuraev and Brian Castillo. Our SVP of weekly programming is Steve Nelson. Our theme song was composed by Daniel Mertzloft and arranged by Aaron Kaufman. Special thanks to Megan Strickland. Executive producers, Stephanie Wittels Wachs, Jessica Cordova Kramer, Katherine Law and Dylan Mulvaney. You can find us online @lemonadamedia, and you can find Dylan on Tiktok and Instagram @DylanMulvaney. Follow The Dylan Hour wherever you get your podcasts, or listen ad free on Amazon music with your Prime membership.