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All Podcasts Toolkit: How to Stay Safe at Work

Toolkit: How to Stay Safe at Work

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Here’s the toolkit for everyone who needs to physically be at work — either now or in the future. Andy’s got you covered with expert advice on how to stay safe at work with attorney Jessica Rosenberg and Director of Harvard’s Healthy Buildings program Joseph Allen. They’ve got answers about Plexiglas, filtration, bad bosses, your rights, and more.Keep up with Andy on Twitter @ASlavitt and Instagram @andyslavitt. Follow Joseph Allen @j_g_allen on Twitter. In the Bubble is supported in part by listeners like you. Become a member, get exclusive bonus content, ask Andy questions, and get discounted merch at https://lemonadamedia.com/inthebubble/

 

 

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Transcription

SPEAKERS

Andy Slavitt, Atty. Jessica Rosenberg, Dr. Joe Allen

Andy Slavitt  00:06

Welcome IN THE BUBBLE with Andy Slavitt. This is Andy Slavitt. We have a Back to Work Toolkit today. In case you happen to be going back to work. It’s important to know how to keep safe. And this episode is for that purpose for people who are now going back out into public in what is still a pandemic. And the way we’ve decided to go do this is by bringing together two, I think amazing guests which bring two great perspectives. Joe Allen is the Assistant Professor of Exposure Assessment at Harvard T.H Chan School of Public Health. He’s director of the Healthy buildings Program. And he’s co-author of the book Healthy Buildings.

Andy Slavitt 

If you recall, we did an episode earlier on staying safe in winter. Joe is really kind of the brother of another mother from Rich Corsi who was on that show, and you will, I think, find his advice on staying safe and work very helpful. And he’s complemented today by Jessica Rosenberg, who is a litigation attorney who focuses on workplace issues of discrimination, harassment, disputes involving employment contracts. So she is really expert at “What can your employer do?” “What can’t they do?” What rights do you have, etc. And the two of them together are just fabulous.

Andy Slavitt 

I should let you know because she’s a lawyer, that the discussion conversation that anything you hear from her. It’s not actual legal advice. It does not establish an attorney client relationship in case you thought it did. And in some jurisdictions, the presentation may be considered attorney advertising, huh, okay, you got that warning. Now, let’s get to the good stuff. This is a great show. Let’s welcome Jessica and Joe.

Atty. Jessica Rosenberg  02:02

Hi, can you hear me?

Andy Slavitt 

Hi there. I can. Yes.

Atty. Jessica Rosenberg 

I’m a fan of the podcast. Big fan.

Andy Slavitt

Oh, wow. Thank you. You ain’t seen nothing yet. Wait till this episode.

Andy Slavitt

Hi Joe.

Dr. Joe Allen

Hi, everybody.

Andy Slavitt 

And first of all, we have the two-perfect people for this conversation. The person who’s literally written everything there is to write about workplaces. We’re thrilled to have you Joe Allen. And then Jessica Rosenberg Esquire

Atty. Jessica Rosenberg 

Yes. Need the title

Andy Slavitt 

Yeah, that means she’s a lawyer. And because you’re paying $0 per hour, this is not legal advice. I got to say that this is just like my funny way of doing the disclaimer that she’s gonna we’re gonna ask you for your legal opinion and things. But these are just not legal opinions that you should take to the bank because you didn’t pay anything for them. And she saves her really best advice for people who pay, right?

Atty. Jessica Rosenberg 

That’s right.

Andy Slavitt 

So now, you should also be because our listeners are smart, you should be able to tell the difference between Joe’s voice.

Dr. Joe Allen

That’s me

Andy Slavitt 

And Jessica’s voice.

Atty. Jessica Rosenberg 

That’s me. Nice to be here.

Andy Slavitt 

Fantastic. So and I’ve been reading through your questions which you’ve sent in about going back to work in the workplace. I feel like this episode could probably be titled, “Bad Bosses”. Because  people asking people to put up with a lot of stuff that my opinion at least they really shouldn’t. And we’ll get into that. Let me start with Joe and Jessica, feel free to tag onto this. This is an email that came from a listener named Helen and we’re gonna start with her question. She has a question about office cubicles.

Andy Slavitt

In her office, the policy is that masks must be worn in public areas, such as hallways, lobbies, restrooms, and while walking around in the office. However, when staff are seated at their desks in their cubicles, masks are not required. The cubicles are spaced more than six feet apart, but share the same enclosed room. And of course the virus can be airborne. Is this safe? Joe? What do you think?

Dr. Joe Allen  04:15

Yeah, I think it’s a really good question that we get a lot. So first, thanks for having me on, Andy. This a lot of fun, it’s great to be on with Jessica too. You know, it’s precisely because the virus is airborne and I’ll describe what that is in a second and remind people that we need to keep masks on in these work environments. And we call it airborne. What I’m talking about here is far field so beyond six feet transmission of respiratory aerosols, right? That emit just when we breathe. We’re certainly more when we talk and even more when we sing if you’re singing in the office.

Dr. Joe Allen 

And so these will emit and travel beyond six feet they’ll travel all the way across the room until they are diluted out of the air through ventilation or cleaned out of the air through filtration. And so masks are absolutely key. Of course, because their source control, they’re stopping how much gets out in the first place and they’re also limiting how much you inhale. So, you know, mask alone or any of these strategies alone are insufficient, you want to take this layered defense approach of which mask are absolutely a critical component of an overall holistic risk reduction strategy.

Andy Slavitt 

Got it. So a piece of Plexiglas, or a high cube wall isn’t going to do it, just to confirming this Joe, in an airborne setting where people are not wearing masks in an open large room, is that correct?

Dr. Joe Allen 

Yeah, that’s right, you know, they might capture called Ballistic Droplets. So you know, if you see someone singing, you actually see, you know, spit come out, or even larger particles you don’t see. But really, that’s us constituting a really small percentage of our overall exposure. And so it’s not really helpful in an office setting or most environments, right? Because the aerosols just go right around the Plexiglas and sometimes importantly, the Plexiglas can actually interrupt the airflow and ventilation and therefore reduce the pollution that’s happening.

Andy Slavitt 

At two Plexiglas?

Dr. Joe Allen  06:10

That’s right. You know, you saw that the some of the debates, we see these Plexiglas barriers on stage and think it’s just laughable, it’s not really doing anything. And sometimes if your box people in, right? You’re boxing in those aerosols, too. So a few instances Plexiglas makes sense, you know, like a checkout counter at the grocery store, where the worker is seeing hundreds of people per hour. That makes sense, but it’s not really gonna play a role in an office space.

Andy Slavitt 

Gotcha. Okay, Jessica, for you.

Andy Slavitt 

“Hi, Andy, I work for a plastic surgeon. My job requires me to do personal services like facial treatments. I live in a state that has suspended all personal services that require clients to remove their masks, such as facials, my boss has informed everyone at work, that he is not enforcing this. And I have to keep doing services regardless of the new state guidelines. Recently, one of our employees tested positive for COVID. I was the only one who got tested and I wasn’t paid while I waited for test results. I worry because my husband is type two diabetic and has high risk. I’m very careful at work. And I’m in full PPE and N-95, which I had to purchase myself, plus surgical mask over that face shield and gloves. I’ve even put a small air purifier in my treatment room. Are there any legal actions I can take? If I do end up getting COVID? And then in fact, my high-risk husband, what options do we have at this point?”

Atty. Jessica Rosenberg

Okay, that’s what we call in the legal world, a compound question, right? There’s a lot of stuff mixed in there. So I want to start by just taking a step back, right? A lot of people say, “can my employer really require me to do this?” “Can my employer really mandate that we do, you know, X or Y?” And the answer really is Yes, right? An employer to a certain extent can make policies that the employees have to follow. It’s not like your regular civil rights environment where you say, “I’m, you know, I don’t want to do this, I have freedom here.”

Atty. Jessica Rosenberg  08:08

When you work for an employer, you’re certainly required to do as they see fit, if they want everyone to wear, you know, hats with chickens on them, if that’s their policy, if it’s a, you know, a chicken restaurant, you’re gonna have to wear the uniform. But however, we have something in this country called OSHA, the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, that guarantees that everyone can work right in a safe environment in their workplace. And that’s a guaranteed right. So if an employer is not following safety guidelines, and employee can certainly make a complaint with OSHA.

Atty. Jessica Rosenberg 

And 28 states already have made COVID safety plans with OSHA, and they’re working with employers to follow them. So certainly making a complaint is one option for someone who feels like their employer is not adhering to CDC guidelines or OSHA requirements or safety plans by state. There’s also a lot of local ordinances with safety plans and employers should be required to follow those. The issue here is people are nervous. There’s not a lot of information out there, right? And what’s the follow through if I make a complaint. “Could I be retaliated against?” “Can I be fired?”

Atty. Jessica Rosenberg 

OSHA protects against that they want people to be able to come forward, there’s Whistleblower Protection. Other employees have said maybe we should be able to take it to the courts, right? What if I contract COVID? This person is writing in a question what if I contract COVID and then I give it to my husband who’s immunocompromised. So the jury’s still out on how this is all going to land in the courts versus OSHA. And as we talk a little bit more, there’s a lot to be said, I’ve been following litigations all across the country, and you might be surprised to learn, they’re coming out differently.

Atty. Jessica Rosenberg

There was a case in New York recently in Staten Island, Amazon workers said “we haven’t been provided PPE”. “We haven’t been provided safe work Environment.” “We’re bringing a lawsuit.” And the Eastern District of New York said, “No, I don’t think so.” OSHA should be handling this that’s in their jurisdiction and they throw out the case. But then in Chicago, we’re seeing McDonald’s workers say, “Wait, McDonald’s isn’t providing us with the proper workplace environment, proper PPE, proper distancing.” And the court said, “No, let’s go ahead, I want to hear this. I want to entertain it. I want McDonald’s to do better. “So it’s very new territory.

Atty. Jessica Rosenberg  10:30

The courts are handling it differently in different jurisdictions. But employees out there should know they have a right to a safe work environment. And the main avenue, I would say would be OSHA, your state OSHA office, where you could make a complaint about not being safe in your workplace.

Andy Slavitt

Wow, that answer was killer. I mean, Joe and I were taking fast notes here. Okay, a couple quick follow ups to that. So is OSHA, like, is that a legal remedy? Or is that like a fix it ticket?

Atty. Jessica Rosenberg 

It’s a federal agency, right? So it’s like, like the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. It’s a federal agency. And they regulate mostly when times are not COVID pandemic times, right? They regulate construction,  they regulate, you know, workers in, in the restaurants.

Andy Slavitt 

So let’s say they took this on, let’s say they took this, I’m sorry to interrupt you, would they? What would they? Do they levy a fine? Would they visit the office and ask for something to be corrected? Getting your billion-dollar settlement?

Atty. Jessica Rosenberg

You’re jumping ahead. Because first they’d have to do an investigation. That would be the first step they’d have to go in. They’d have to say, let me see what you’re doing for your workers. Let me see what you’re not doing interview people, and then make a finding, you’re right, make a finding. And then they could have a violation under an OSHA statute. And you might have to remedy it, you might have to pay a fine. But yes, that’s the mechanism to get the government involved when someone’s not following safety guidelines in the workplace.

Andy Slavitt  12:00

Okay, so in the show notes, you’ll find the phone number for OSHA, you’ll also find the website, you’ll find the states that Jessica refer to. And what do you think the chances of OSHA responding given their resources? And given the amount of traffic that they might be seeing? I mean, is that just a is that unfortunately, hopeless situation for someone? Like Danny, who just asked that question?

Atty. Jessica Rosenberg

So that’s a great question, Andy. I was doing some research before I came on, because I figured that would be something that you’d ask. And I read an article that stated it was a CNN article that stated 2% of these COVID complaints have been investigated and resolved to date. So if you actually go on OSHA’s website, you can see which, it lists by employer, which ones have had investigations. So it’s a really good tool for people to look at. But I think you’re right, I think it’s only 2% to date.

Dr. Joe Allen 

Yeah, you know, I’ll add Jesse, great answer. You know, I think OSHA has been added the game here and the Trump administration, but some key signals, if we’re seeing what’s going on is that Dr. David Michaels, formerly headed up OSHA, is on the Biden-Harris transition team as one of the experts. So the signals are there that were like everything else, I think we’d expect a more robust and forward-facing CDC, we already see that with Dr. Rochelle Walensky, and the signals are there that OSHA will also be reinvigorated. As the new administration comes in, I think we’ll see an uptick in these kinds of investigations and response. And that’s the proper role.

Andy Slavitt

That’s great. That’s a great example of how policy often equals personnel and how important that is. And maybe I’ll come back at a subsequent question and talk about, you know, what other remedies people might have if they can’t get ahold of OSHA. And also, just for the record, on my wife’s birthday, I get to wear a chicken suit also. So it’s not that unusual.

Andy Slavitt  14:03

Okay, Joe, “for those of us with our own offices, our masks necessary with the door open. I have an office cubby. It’s a full room, but with no door. And though there are five other people in the building, I’m about 20 feet from another person down the hall, and sometimes get made fun of by keeping my mask on” this is from Christina.

Dr. Joe Allen 

Yeah, well, Christina, you shouldn’t be made fun of. In fact, I think you’re doing everyone a favor and the people around you and your workers should be appreciative that you’re looking out for their health, really, that’s what we’re all doing when wearing a mask. And so even though people are 20 feet away, and you have your own office, the fact that you don’t actually have walls or door it doesn’t sound like the air is certainly talking or exchanging between your office and that other space.

Dr. Joe Allen

And again, like the first answer, I said, you know, this is the time you’re actually definitely going to want to wear a mask because the air in the room is going to mix and depending on how the ventilation system is in place, and running. Will determine how diluted those aerosols are. And I think this is a really important point we think about controls, because very often we have these discussions about controls out of context of other controls. So we talked about just mass or just distancing, or just ventilation. And the reality is you need this layered defense approach. We have everything happening.

Dr. Joe Allen

And one of the frameworks we use and wrote about in Harvard Business Review early on in April, in fact, it’s an occupational health framework, it’s called the Hierarchy of Controls. It’s something my field has used for decades to control hazards in the workplace, around either radiological hazards, chemical hazards, and in this case, biological hazards. And it still applies. It has five parts. And just really quickly to give you a sense of the layering, right? The first is eliminate the hazard. So can you remove the hazard entirely for some workers, they’re able to work from home, that’s great.

Dr. Joe Allen

Second is substitution. So identifying the core people that have to be back and physically present to keep your operation running. Three, engineering controls. These are healthy building strategies, better ventilation, better filters, it’s really that simple. Four, administrative controls, de-densification, managing flows and queues of people in space, maintaining six-foot distancing. And last is PPE, personal protective equipment. And this context is masking.

Dr. Joe Allen  16:22

So it’s important that we have all of these layers happening even though we want to separate them often in these conversations, distancing is ventilation and filtration. Well, it’s everything. And all of them when they’re working. We know we can reduce risk. In fact, if you look at all of the outbreaks that have happened indoors, it doesn’t really matter if it’s restaurant, choir practice, ice hockey even.

Dr. Joe Allen 

You name your favorite high-profile outbreak. And the underlying factors are the same. It’s time indoors, no mask, low to no ventilation every single time. In fact, I’m not aware of a high-profile outbreak we’ve had where those controls have been in place. So we know when we layer these, it can be quite effective and reduce risk, really, in any indoor environment. So keep wearing your mask, Christina, you’re doing a good job.

Andy Slavitt 

Yeah. And people making fun of you. You throw my name around, because I’m known as a toughie. All right, Joe, let me ask you about the fallacy of doors. Because if that question about exactly the same if she’d had a door, but they were using a common ventilation system, in other words, she was sitting next to another person in an office, they both had closed doors, but they shared a ventilation system, it seems to me that might give a false sense of comfort. And that people you know, they say I closed the door, and I could take off my mask where the ventilation could connect the two offices and therefore, isn’t that true?

Dr. Joe Allen

Yeah, that’s exactly right. It’s really gonna depend on the mechanical system. So to be clear, we actually don’t have an example of airborne transmission between rooms through the mechanical system, like we have seen for things like measles, it’s not to say can’t happen, it’s really context dependent. So for example, if my office was right next to your office, and sure enough if we had a system that was exchanging air and recirculating air, as often happens. It’s very likely that you would have the aerosols in my office would be mixing with yours, we know they’re exchanging.

Dr. Joe Allen  18:17

And this is where one of the strategies is really important. We talked about a lot about ventilation, you also want to increase the level of filtration on recirculated air. So your business organization, you’re bringing in more outdoor air, and upgrading to what’s called a MERV-13 Filter. Typical buildings that have what’s called a MERV-8 filter only captures about 20% of the airborne particles we’re interested in for health and infectious disease transmission. So, look for MERV-13, you should be asking about that of your employer, that captures about 80%.

Dr. Joe Allen 

So that’s absolutely critical. So no false protection from a door. And also if you’re in that office with the door and somebody comes in, you still want to have the higher ventilation be wearing a mask so that the aerosols aren’t building up in your office for the next person who comes in or the cleaner who comes in after I leave.

Andy Slavitt 

Yep. So when this is all done, I’m inviting you and Rich Corsi over to check out my house.

Dr. Joe Allen 

Yeah, you know, with Rich that was a great episode. He and I are friends and colleagues. He’s great.

Andy Slavitt

Yes, you guys are wonderful and great resources, very generous. Still, if they’re coming after me, I’m going with Jessica every day of the week.

Andy Slavitt

Okay, so Jessica, here’s a question that comes from Jodi. It’s a question about her daughter.

Andy Slavitt 

“My daughter works for an agency that works primarily for a state. She’s been allowed to work from home until recently now she’s being forced to attend meetings in person and masks are not allowed. The conference room is enclosed. All shake hands upon entering, and all are seated around the conference room table with no thought given to personal distancing or airflow. When I asked her why she couldn’t choose to wear a mask herself to distance herself anyway, she said that her boss wouldn’t approve, and her high paying job depends upon not challenging her boss in any way. My questions, can an employer forbid employees from practicing safe CDC? And even that state’s guidelines for not catching or spreading Coronavirus? How is this legal?”

Atty. Jessica Rosenberg  20:24

So the first thing I would say is all young women everywhere should always speak up if they feel that something is not going right. You know it by their employer, right? So that’s the first thing I’d put out there. That’s personal, not legal advice. But look, I think states need to be following, right? The state guidelines, I work with clients every day who are agonizing over, you know, making sure they’re following the state guidelines, making sure they have the PPE, making sure cubicles are set up, like your first question was asked, you know, there’s distance between them, that people get training, one of the things that Joe was saying, you know, of all these, the hierarchy, one thing I would even add to that is communications, right?

Atty. Jessica Rosenberg 

People need to know, is there someone in the office who has it? Is there someone who’s quarantining? You know, what’s the proper way to wear PPE? Because you see people with it below their nose. But to answer this specific question, so if you’re in an employment environment, and you feel that the employer is not, you know, keeping you safe, providing a safe environment, you could potentially have, you know, a complaint with OSHA. So that’s something to look into, I mean, the best, the best advice would be to try to speak up. I mean, there is an issue with can an employer, the first part of the question can an employer require you to come to work, right?

Atty. Jessica Rosenberg

You’ve been working remotely this whole time very well, very efficiently at your desk. And now the employer saying, well, the numbers are going down, we have a lot of business contacts, we want you to come into the office, and the employee saying, “but I’ve been working from home, you know, well, this whole time.” the employer does have the right in providing a safe work environment, right? To call you into the office, unless you can say, I needed accommodation under the ADA, the Americans with Disabilities Act, right?

Atty. Jessica Rosenberg  22:19

Unless you say, I simply cannot come in because of some disability. And even then the employer has to work with you to sort of find a reasonable accommodation, right? It might be that we’ll have you come in, but you’ll sit totally separately from someone else, and you’ll be wearing this mask. So the employer is required to have a conversation with the employee about any accommodation they need. I think employers should be asking everyone to wear masks, though, in the first instance, what if they’re inside with other people?

Andy Slavitt 

Well, here’s where the question to me is confusing. I mean, the answers confusing is the enforceability of a governor’s mandate. So if a governor says you all must wear masks, you know, there is a near 100-year-old legal precedent that people use for this. But people generally say governors do that. And obviously, some people comply, and some people don’t. And once you step into the office, is an employer bound by that Governor’s mandate?

Atty. Jessica Rosenberg

The problem is if you look at most of the mandates, they actually say you’re supposed to be wearing masks in public spaces, they actually mandate wearing of masks for, you know, public areas, and they don’t actually speak to inside offices. They might speak to retail, retail stores where you’re interacting with the public, but they don’t actually have the reach really into private spaces, they have reached into restaurants, but and you’d have to look at the state by state if you pulled up. But if you actually look at the language, you know, it doesn’t really mandate the private office spaces that we’re talking about, like this woman’s office, so they might not be out of compliance. But that is sort of a separate issue from “am I really in a safe work environment, if I’m being forced to be not social distance.”

Andy Slavitt  24:13

Yeah, I was just looking for another line of defense here. Let’s say a state didn’t specify public spaces, or include explicitly included office spaces. First of all, is that is that enforceable? And second of all, if they did, does that create a new avenue for an employee?

Atty. Jessica Rosenberg 

Well, I think it might create, you know, a violation of a state mandated guideline. That’s separate from a civil lawsuit, right? That’s separate from bringing a claim of a public creating a public nuisance or some kind of negligence claim. And that’s separate from if you were to get COVID, right? If you were to get it in the office. Could you bring a little you know, there’s been some litigations about that, but that’s also hard to prove causation.

Atty. Jessica Rosenberg

So those cases are sort of in flux as well. So I think the best bet is to, you know, look at your state’s plan, what’s required under OSHA, and then go from there about to see whether your employers really, you have to look specifically though, are they adhering to the letter of this this Governor’s mandate, the state mandate. Or does it really only talk about the public spaces?

Andy Slavitt

Let me go back to another question. And this one relates to school buildings, or school districts. This is from Karen. She says:

Andy Slavitt

“I work for a school district, but not in a school building. Just with other adults, our buildings, leaders have decided that if employees are six feet away from each other masks will not be required. You’ve already addressed the fallacy of that one, Joe. So we know that’s not good. I spend as much of my day as possible mask on, door closed, and the building engineer was kind enough to close the damper. So there’s no air blowing on me.” Karen’s amazing. “I also refuse as much as possible to enter enclosed areas where people have been working unmasked. Any other suggestions?”

Dr. Joe Allen  26:14

Yeah. So it’s really good. I think you’re smart not to go into places where people aren’t wearing masks, as we’ve been talking about. One thing that catches my ear on that question is that while it seems like a good idea that the or might seem like a good idea that the dampers are closed on the ventilation system, it’s a little bit of a flag for me that maybe you’re not getting any airflow in there at all, which is a bad thing. And also means your filters may not be able to do their jobs. Let me explain that a little bit better.

Dr. Joe Allen

I think the questions concern about the airflow, it sounds like was, you know, the dampers are closed. And certainly we want to be, we want to be thoughtful about airflow. If I’m working next to someone, and we don’t want air coming across my breathing zone and pushing it into the breathing zone of the person next to me, I think that makes a lot of sense. So we have to think about airflow. But to shut off a damper from the ventilation supply that might be on a ceiling, for example, that’s really going to reduce how much air is coming in from outdoors.

Dr. Joe Allen

And now you’ve taken away one of the two main mechanisms we have of reducing these respiratory particles in the air, and that is one is dilution through ventilation. The other thing that’s happening, sometimes you’re close these dampers, depending on which damper they’re talking about is that you may no longer be recirculating air through these better grade filters. So just be cautious there and check on whether or not you’re actually getting the airflow. And in one other comment about these interior rooms about what else can be done. So people often say it’s particularly schools, well, you know an interior room, I don’t have windows, I cannot open up my windows. Well, a good solution here is the use of a portable air cleaner with the help of filter.

Dr. Joe Allen

If it’s sized right to the room, I know you talked about this with Rich Corsi in one of earlier episodes. But these devices can be really effective. They’re plug and play, relatively low costs, particularly buildings, like older schools that may not have an up-to-date ventilation system. So there’s, it’s something that can get us through the hard winter we have with this pandemic and get people back into school and keep both kids and adults saved, particularly in these interior rooms, you don’t may not have the benefit of an operable window.

Andy Slavitt  28:14

Let me just untangle the damper thing to make sure it’s clear. So if I were to ask questions of our building, people who maintained our building, if the questions I asked were, if this is air that’s circulating from outside into the inside, that’s good. If there is a high-quality filter, like a MERV-13, then that’s good. And I would want to keep them on. If the vent just simply recirculated air internally, that would be less good. Is that correct, Joe?

Dr. Joe Allen 

Yeah, I think that’s right in the way I’ve been talking about it in this like prioritization is you want to bring in as much outdoor air as possible. So in this question, if that dampers closed and that’s not happening, that’s not a good idea. So bringing as much outdoor as possible. Two, use higher efficiency filters on recirculated air, use a MERV-13 filter in recirculated air.

Dr. Joe Allen

Number three, supplement that with the use of a portable air cleaner with the help of filter if those first two are not doing enough, and for schools, my team has released a lot of guidance on risk reduction strategies for schools. We have a full report out there a guide on how to assess ventilation exact questions like this wrote a five-step guide to how to assess ventilation in schools and applies to offices and homes too. If anybody wants this nice little cheat sheet on how to do it.

Andy Slavitt

Great. We will link to that.

Dr. Joe Allen

Yeah, sure. Yeah, and many school districts are using it. And one of the targets we give there is to achieve four to six air changes per hour to any combination of the three things I just mentioned, higher ventilation, better filters to recirculated air, portable air clean with the help of filter, any combination of four to six air changes per hour, in addition to mask wearing will greatly reduce risk. In fact, it’ll be greater than 95% risk reduction or more simply through those through the company. Have those control measures?

Andy Slavitt  30:02

Wow, I have a personal question, Joe. Going in to 2020. Did you say to your partner, “I kind of gut the 2020 one’s gonna be my year.”

Dr. Joe Allen

Well, you know, this has been, I have to say, you know, we knew this was going to happen. It was never a question of when or if. If it’s just when and actually, I wrote an editorial with a colleague of mine a year ago, almost to the day where we talk about healthy building control strategies in light of pandemics

Andy Slavitt  30:30

When you wrote that I would have been like, “healthy buildings in light of pandemics, I’m not gonna read that.” Now. It’d be like, “Oh, my God, number one searched article in America.” Right?

Dr. Joe Allen 

Yeah, it was read by two people last December. And you know, a million this December.

Atty. Jessica Rosenberg 

My husband and I were just saying, think about how many words came into our vocabulary in 2020. That just didn’t exist in our minds. It’s incredible.

Dr. Joe Allen 

Yeah. It’s all these, you know, things we teach in class that are, you know, the boring lectures about PPE and filtration and ventilation. So I, who knew was gonna be, you know, this hot topic this year.

Andy Slavitt

Right. I think about all the people on Twitter, who didn’t know they had skills in epidemiology, and they’re now experts. Quick question for both of you. This is about it’s important one because it’s about health care settings.

Andy Slavitt

“Hi, Andy. It’s from Caitlin. I live in the Midwest and work as an inpatient speech language pathologist in a large hospital. When there’s a stay-at-home order this spring, we use the hybrid model and work 25% on site and 75% from home, utilizing telehealth, with a gradual return to work by the end of June. Now, the cases are exploding in the area. The higher ups at my hospital have encouraged people to work from home if they can, as the governor, however, my managers continue to maintain that we’re safe with our masks and goggles. That this spread is in the community and not at our hospital.”

Andy Slavitt 

That part I can’t imagine there’s any truth to.

Andy Slavitt  32:00

“And that inpatient therapists will continue to work 100% in person, a staff member recently tested positive and will return to work 10 days from the positive test. I have a couple questions.” Okay. There’s four questions. “How contagious are people after 10 days? If one of my coworkers become seriously ill or dies. Are there any legal implications? Because we previously were allowed to work from home earlier in the pandemic, but no longer are supported to do so. Third, we’re provided surgical masks to wear every day, is there any benefit to doubling up on the masks? And fourth, we currently wear goggles during patient care only should I wear mine at all at this time?” Let me dispense with the legal question first, and then we’ll go to Joe, any particular legal issues. Here you see Jessica?

Atty. Jessica Rosenberg

Well, the one that pops out at me is that her manager is treating her group differently than the rest of the workforce. And when I have clients who have this, they have this issue regularly, because you’ll have a manager who says, “Oh, it’s not such a big deal I want my people in.” And when you start treating certain employees differently, when you don’t treat employees uniformly, you could create an issue there. So I think, you know, if you have a manager, this is just a general advice, that sort of acting rogue out of course, with the rest of the organization.

Atty. Jessica Rosenberg 

You might want to flag it to HR, because they might not even be aware of it. You know, some of these organizations are so big that someone could be acting rogue. So that’s the first piece of advice I would give to employee who feels like their managers not acting within the scope of the policy. And then, you know, I think the issue of what repercussions they could have legally might depends on a number of factors. Mostly, you know, we talked about causation before.

Atty. Jessica Rosenberg

It’s going to be hard in these lawsuits to prove where people actually contracted the virus, employees who feel like my workplace was unsafe, and I got it there. So now I’m suing, especially considering, you know, there are many people who can’t ever figure out where they got it from. And so I think that’s going to be an impediment to people bringing lawsuits in certain cases.

Andy Slavitt  34:13

Okay. Joe, what thoughts do you have on a couple of questions? I’m happy to repeat any of the specifics.

Dr. Joe Allen

Yeah, no, I can go through them quick. Yeah, really good questions here. And by the way Andy, thanks for bringing us together and pairing us up because it’s really good to see the legal aspects of this. It’s terrific the science and the legal. Nice job. So quickly on the questions first, you know, are your infectious after 10 days really the peak effect just period is two days before symptoms and five to seven after. So the short answer is we you know, very few people are infectious after 10 days of having symptoms. On the question of surgical mask, you know, these are quite effective.

Dr. Joe Allen 

You don’t need to double them up and it’s worth talking about why masks work for one second, and why universal masking works and why surgical masks in particular are very good. Three-layer masks. They’re about 70% removal efficiency and capture efficiency for these particles were interested in. But think about in the context of universal masking. If I released 100 particles through my breath, we released more, but let’s say 100, my 70% efficient mask capture 70 and 30 go into space, they hit your mask at 70% efficiency, which captures another, you know, 21 of those 9 get through, that’s 91%. Combined efficiency, not N-95, but not that far off, either. And remember, the space between the mask is governed by these healthy building control strategies like ventilation, filtration and distance. So the three-layer surgical mask really is effective in this kind of setting for that reason, this is how you get to the high 90%.

Andy Slavitt 

Is the 70% an actual number?

Dr. Joe Allen

Yeah, that’s an actual number, actually, it can be higher for three layers surgical mask up to 80%. And so I use the 70% as a kind of a conservative estimate, but to show that the combined effect is you know, over 90%.

Andy Slavitt

And, you know, if the masks are not snug, so there’s some more leakages that reduced to 70% meaningfully? Or just by a little bit?

Dr. Joe Allen  36:00

No, it does and absolutely critical and I wrote an article on masks early April on the debate being over about mass and I spent half the Op-ed in the Washington Post talking about how to wear them correctly for this reason, right? When we give out N-95, which are technically respirators, not mask. We have fit testing for that reason, the mask has to go over the bridge of the nose has to come below your chin and should be flush against your face. I think it’s obvious, right? If you think why, when anytime you have a gap, well, the particles are just going to go out, you just want the particles to go through the fabric, where the filtration is going to be happening. So really critical that fit is very important. Yeah.

Andy Slavitt 

So how much of that 70% might be lost if you’ve got a loose-fitting mask?

Dr. Joe Allen

Yeah, depending on how loose it can go, it can get a drop down below 50% for sure. And so we see the ones that have the nose over, you know that the clip that can bridge over your nose that gives a tighter fit, you know, a nice fit around your cheeks all the way, you know. And if you do fit testing, like Andy, you and I, we’d actually have to shave our beards, we’re wearing N-95 to get a good fit. That would satisfy the fit testing requirements.

Andy Slavitt 

My wife just paid you to say that.

Dr. Joe Allen 

Same with mine.

Andy Slavitt 

Right, right, right, right. Okay. So let me move to the next question. That was incredibly helpful. This is from Ian, he emailed to ask a question about immunity passports. And I think this might be a good question for you, Jessica. Although, of course, Joe, you’re welcome to answered as well.

Andy Slavitt

“Hey, Andy, and Co. Let’s assume the approved vaccines provide sterilizing immunity, i.e. an individual who’s received it cannot pass the virus to others, even though they’re through even through their nasal mucus. What is the legality of requiring proof of vaccination for work, concerts, international travel, restaurants, etc?”

Atty. Jessica Rosenberg

That’s a great question. So the EOC and OSHA, right? Have been hesitant to put out guidelines on the COVID-19 vaccine because it didn’t get FDA approval yet. What we have been looking at though is the prior guidance from the EOC about the flu vaccine. And employers can certainly mandate that their employees receive the flu vaccine before coming to work. It’s definitely legal, it’s allowable, but they must make accommodations if someone has a disability, let’s say you’re allergic to one of the ingredients or a religious objection under the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

Atty. Jessica Rosenberg  38:30

Interestingly, a personal or political objection is not characterized under that act as a political objection as a religious exemption. So anti vaxxers, who just feel like for political reasons, or personal reasons they don’t want to do it really don’t have an out in the situation, an employer can require the flu vaccine, and it’s very likely that COVID-19 will follow. I mean, with the emergency use authorization, I think it’s a little bit trickier. Because people might have more objections, knowing that the standard for the emergency use is really just may be effective.

Atty. Jessica Rosenberg 

Whereas FDA approved by right a license will be is effective. So it’s a little bit of a gray area. But certainly, you know, once the EOC and OSHA come out, I think the guidelines, I think it’s going to say, you can mandate it for now most of my clients are talking about voluntarily encouraging all employees to get it. So it’s just to know what people are talking about. That’s sort of where their approach is starting for now.

Andy Slavitt 

And how about how about for events and venues like concerts and things of that nature?

Atty. Jessica Rosenberg 

Yes, certainly you can. I mean, if it’s a private event, right, you’re paying money to go to something. Certainly, it’s not a free country, you have to have a ticket to get inside. If they can regulate the venue they could regulate. Right? Think about it like they could check your bag to see if you have a firearm, right? That’s not an invasion of privacy. So I think It’s a similar situation where they’re allowed to ensure the safety of whatever concert venue.

Dr. Joe Allen  40:05

And Andy, I’ll add on that, you know, I’ve been working with and advising many different organizations, including, you know, Broadway, Boston Symphony Orchestra, these big venue places, they’ll already planning for this. So, you know, nobody likes the passport question. But the reality is, this is after 100 million people or so are vaccinated, people are gonna want to have access, or let’s say, get back into the world and these other organizations are planning to say.

Dr. Joe Allen 

You know, whether it be the proof of vaccination, or as we expect rapid test to pick up the availability of rapid test to say, show me a negative rapid test. And so the technology many organizations are already working on how that will, what will that will look like in terms of implementing it this spring and summer is proof of vaccine or proof of negative tests as part of their reopening plans.

Andy Slavitt

Right. Right. And I think the best policies, put aside legality and equal legal rights and ABA etc. are to offer people options. If you feel comfortable coming in person, you want to come to see Broadway show, proof of vaccination. Otherwise, we have a digital option available. Here’s what it costs. And if for whatever reason you don’t feel comfortable, or you have religious objection to vaccine, or what have you, to try to accommodate that.

Andy Slavitt 

Question from Terese. She’s a licensed mental health counselor, she asks:

Andy Slavitt

“I’d like to go back to my office and see clients but I won’t feel safe going in without a vaccine. Once I’m vaccinated, will it be safe for me to see clients without masks? Will I need to require my clients to get vaccinated before I see them in person? What if I see young kids they won’t be getting the vaccine for a while. Will I be safe in an office with them?

Dr. Joe Allen

Yeah, that’s a really good question. So a couple things are gonna it’s gonna depend on a whole bunch of things there. One, is which vaccine you have and the level of efficacy right and no vaccine is perfect. So we still want to have these controls.

Andy Slavitt  42:00

So let’s assume for this question, Joe, that we have a 90 to 95% efficacious vaccine.

Dr. Joe Allen 

So we have the maternal or the Pfizer vaccine, looking pretty good. High efficacy certainly looks like very good efficacy can severe disease, too. I think it depends on your underlying individual risk tolerance, and also risk factors, you know, how will like willing, are you to take that 5% risk? And so in, especially in the beginning, we’re still gonna want all of these controls in place. The other thing that’s really important in this question is, and it’s unknown at this point, there was a little bit of data today is whether or not the vaccine blocks transmission.

Dr. Joe Allen 

So it’s clear that it’s protecting us right? Or, you know, just to a high degree better than we even hoped 95% or so give or take. But whether or not that actually stops you from transferring, can you still carry it and infect somebody else we don’t quite know, we’ll know is as a lot more people get vaccinated. So in the interim, it’s absolutely critical if you’re vaccinated to still act as though you can transmit to others. And you’re still going to want to have these controls in place, at least for the spring and summer.

Atty. Jessica Rosenberg 

Joe, it’s amazing that nobody is talking about that. That’s the first I’ve really heard of anyone saying that. And I never thought about it before. But that’s really interesting that you could still transmit it.

Dr. Joe Allen 

Yeah. You know, and but today, we just got a little bit of data from Moderna that looks like maybe there’s some reduction, looks good. I think it makes sense that there would be some reduction. We don’t know how, what that looks like, but that’s going to be key to really.

Andy Slavitt 

AstraZeneca is trial seem to show that as well.

Dr. Joe Allen 

That’s right.

Andy Slavitt 

Yeah. So we’re hopeful, but it’s not it’s not guaranteed. And of course, look, you may be one of the 1 in 10 or the 1 in 20. And for a while, you know, there’s a couple benefits to continuing to wear a mask. One is it sends a signal to whoever is coming in to see you that they should be wearing a mask. They may not be vaccinated. It also sends a signal of comfort to them. You’re vaccinated, but they don’t they don’t know that the layered approach makes sense, I think for I think for a while, you know, because it does no harm. Masks just seemed to me to be a freebie. You know, if God were staring down and he’d be like, “I gave you all masks, what the heck, we have masks created, especially for you. Didn’t you follow the 70% time 70%? Come on, guys.”

Andy Slavitt 

Alright. few more questions. This is for you, Jessica. from Justin.

Andy Slavitt  44:27

“I’m wondering if employers can legally verify the certain populations of employees, particularly ones working directly with the public have been vaccinated prior to going back to work. Are there HIPAA issues with that? How can employers assure employees that the virus cannot spread because enough of an office has been vaccinated? I have anti-vaccine coworkers who would get litigious the second they heard about getting vaccinated would be a prerequisite for them to come back to the office.

Atty. Jessica Rosenberg 

That’s a good question. I think to require someone show a vaccination records isn’t going to be a HIPAA violation; you’re not you don’t have to show a diagnosis. Right. You don’t have to show a medical condition, you’re showing a record of vaccination. So I don’t see any issue with that. Where HIPAA actually did come into play was when an employee notifies the employer that they have COVID, right? that they have the diagnosis of it at what is the employers responsibility of these via the other employees.

Atty. Jessica Rosenberg

So the way the EOC came out was, you can certainly tell those who have been in contact with your employee that you’ve been in contact with an employee who has been diagnosed with COVID. But you can’t release that person’s name to other employees. And that raises a little bit of an issue for employers, because many employees say, “Wait, you’re telling me I’ve been in contact with someone with COVID. And I can’t know that person’s name?” But that’s where HIPAA really came into play in this whole situation.

Atty. Jessica Rosenberg 

Employers do have to protect the privacy rights of the person’s diagnosis once they’re told. If the person volunteers it says you’re, you can tell the other employees It was me. That’s one thing. But otherwise, you have to protect the privacy rights. But with respect to this question of just about showing a vaccination record, there’s no legal impediment to asking employees to do that.

Andy Slavitt  46:15

Okay, Joe, this comes from Diane. She says:

Andy Slavitt 

“I’ve been counseling remotely during the fall semester, but students will be returning in the spring, I have an air purifier in my counseling room, but no windows for air circulation, I would be meeting with students for 50-minute sessions. I’m wondering how safe this is, with just masks and exactly six feet apart. I’m a kidney transplant patient at age 63. But I’m generally in good physical shape.

Dr. Joe Allen

Yes, the two things I would recommend to think about and we’ve talked a little bit about these is in that space is the risk is going to be determined on how effective that ventilation and filtration are including your portable air cleaner. So number one, I would say make sure you have at minimum a three-layer mask that is tight fitting and make sure your clients or the students who come back in half the same, right? We’ve gone past the point of any mask will do a three-layer mask is good. Second, I would make sure that your portable air cleaner look for the Clean Air delivery rate on your portable air cleaner, CADR should be reported on the box with the manufacturer.

Dr. Joe Allen 

And it should be 350 for every 500 square feet of space, roughly. And that’ll give you about four and a half air changes per hour. And I know that’s a lot of numbers there. But I’ll point people on my Healthy Buildings program, we have a tool on our school’s page, that helps you calculate the air changes per hour you put in the size of your room, the ceiling height, he’ll tell you how many air changes you’re getting based on the CADR Clean Air delivery Rate.

Dr. Joe Allen 

So for your particular good mass target that six-air change per hour target recombination of any air that’s coming in through your mechanical system, and make sure you have a portable air cleaner with the help of filter that’s big enough for that size room at six air changes per hour, you’re moving a lot of that air or cleaning it out pretty good plus with good mass on even a 15-minute meeting should be okay to reduce that risk efficiently.

Andy Slavitt  48:08

That’s right. And if you’re a kidney patient, take every single one of those precautions. That is very reasonable. And I think you know; any reasonable employer would expect and allow for that. Jessica asked one more to you. And then and then I want to kind of bring us to a close with this phenomenal orchestra, this trio we are together in a couple long questions, but they basically get to the same place, which is someone in a situation where they’re being threatened to be fired if they don’t do things that they consider to be unsafe. And you know, in these examples, these are things that sort of violate public health guidelines. But I think as you have stated earlier, don’t necessarily violate a law or a statute that the employer faces, what’s the general employment law issues regarding that type of situation?

Atty. Jessica Rosenberg 

So I think as every good lawyer will say, it depends.

Andy Slavitt 

We just paid you $0 for that?

Atty. Jessica Rosenberg

I mean, I, you know, these are these are difficult. These are difficult times and they’re unique times. I mean, in normal times, I have clients who have employees who complain about you know, everything under the sun, like I wasn’t given a standing desk, so I can’t, you know, function properly. So there’s degrees, right? And if most employers I think most employers are trying to do the right thing, that’s what I would say from my experience. I think most employers are looking out for the safety of employees. If you feel that your employer is not, the first action step is to voice your discomfort and to do it in writing, right?

Atty. Jessica Rosenberg 

That’s what I would advise anyone to say, put it in writing to the decision makers. So the HR people cite one of Joe’s articles, right? And put them on notice, this is what my manager has asked me to be like in the same cubicle as another person, this article says that’s not safe, and then get a response. So instead of, you know, running to an attorney to bring a lawsuit, you want to try to, you know, effectuate change within the organization first, if you don’t get any results, then yes, then I would go to maybe OSHA or maybe another state agency that has guidelines set up and write an email, this is what’s happening, my employer, what do you suggest.

Atty. Jessica Rosenberg  50:41

Because it is a fluid situation. And many employers are scrambling to try to figure it out, I have many clients who looked at the list of things that they need to reopen their offices, and they’re saying, “This is onerous, this is expensive. We have to figure out if we could even do this, if we could stay in business and do this.” So I would, you know, in most cases, I think employers are trying, don’t look at the employer sort of like the enemy and try to work with them, because they do want everyone to be safe.

Andy Slavitt 

Sure. Well, look, I think what differentiate between their bad companies out there for sure, there are also a lot of good companies with bad bosses. Who quite frankly have goals to me, or personal views or what have you, that violate company policy, into just a very Express issue of someone losing their jobs over this. I want to know whether it’s a bad company or a bad boss. Do they have rights in those situations? If in fact, they were asked to violate not their religious rights, but something that they felt was threatening to their health?

Atty. Jessica Rosenberg 

Right. Well, the question is felt threatening to the health or actually is threatening to their health, you know, that’s the degree I think, I think if they’re the basic..

Andy Slavitt 

let’s say it violated, something had Joe had. A very clear that CDC had a very clear view on.

Atty. Jessica Rosenberg

Yeah, I think that they’re gonna have rights there. I think they’re gonna have rights under OSHA, that they shouldn’t be retaliated against for bringing up an issue for protecting their health and safety. So I do think you have rights in the workplace. They’re more limited, right? Than being on the street, than just being an average citizen, because you’re under the employer’s auspices. But, yes, you should raise those concerns and then engage in the process with your employer. You know, 0try to effectuate change.

Andy Slavitt  52:30

Good advice. Okay, so let’s talk about let’s close by talking about this, what I think is a spectrum here of options people have. The beginning of the spectrum to me, is Joe and Joe’s work, it’s really helping to employers to adjust to the new reality and do it in the safest way possible, through a combination of filters and work, spacing, and work from home, and all the other things that are in the attached articles that Joe’s written. And obviously that’s the preference is if something doesn’t feel safe, help them make it safe. And I think you would both agree, start by assuming positive intent, even if you have reasons to feel like it may not, this is a new thing for everybody and employers, as well.

Andy Slavitt

Nobody wants their employees to get sick, nobody wants that as part of the reputation. And then we have a spectrum of things after that, that end is a last step, possibly with Jessica, which is fine legal action to take. But the thing that’s interesting about life is there’s a whole bunch, it’s in the middle. There’s a whole bunch that’s in the middle. And we’re not always in a position individually, where we can feel powerful enough to get those things. But I think about, you know, social media, and visibility, I think about actual media, I think about writing first doing it orally, then writing a letter, I think about dealing with OSHA, and filing a complaint.

Andy Slavitt 

So maybe if I could just to leave people with using that kind of spectrum and putting yourselves in the shoes of somebody who might feel powerless under normal circumstances. I want people to get away from the show feeling like they’ve got all the tools they have to work with. We can ask each of you to kind of give you a reframe on how you help somebody who’s in one of these situations that feels very challenging. Maybe they have someone sick at home, maybe they’ve been sick before maybe they’re getting picked on at work, what have you? So Joe, do you want to begin?

Dr. Joe Allen  54:31

Yeah, sure. And I empathize there. I think one of the biggest challenges we’re all facing is this onslaught of information that’s coming at us, right? I keep tabs on all day, every everything I can do to keep tabs on the science and what’s changing. So we understand how difficult this is. But I would say look, we have agency there are things we can actually do. There’s a light at the end of the tunnel. We’ve all been talking about the vaccine, but there is a right now strategy, and the right now strategy, the things we’re talking about things that we can actually all do. It And that is masking, distancing, hand washing and healthy building strategies like ventilation filtration.

Dr. Joe Allen 

So we have agency, there are things we can do. And really think the way through this is through a creating a culture of health, safety and shared responsibility. And you know, the company has to do its job, the building has a role to play, it has to do its job, the tenant organizations have to do their job in coordination. And the individuals, we all have to do our own job too. And that’s the masking piece. The only way through this is with a high degree of social trust, right? It can’t just be well, my employee didn’t, my employer didn’t do this, or my building didn’t do this, or I didn’t do this, or my colleague in the adjacent cubicle didn’t do that. Right, we all have to work together.

Dr. Joe Allen

And the beautiful thing here is that we know when, when this happens, it works. We’ve driven down risk and they and the highest risk environment in the healthcare industry and hospitals through these basic control measures. So there is a way through this, we can get through the know the right now, these next few months are going to be difficult. And then as we return to work, we keep these practices in place, keep each other safe, and it’s actually the quickest way to both save lives and livelihoods.

Andy Slavitt  56:09

Yeah we have interdependent society. And we really are gonna have tried to make that work as much as we’ve sucked at it during this pandemic. We’re gonna have to learn to get better at whether we like it or not, Jessica?

Atty. Jessica Rosenberg 

Yeah, I think that was a great answer, Joe. And I would just add to that, you know, I think there’s a lot of blame, right? In society right now. And people want to find someone to blame. And if people take a step back, and just, you know, their anger is really towards the virus. You know, I helped a lot of employers who say, employees are complaining, like, they can’t keep me safe, can’t keep me safe. And my clients are saying, you know what, you’re right. Like, we could do everything Joe says we could do everything. And CDC says, we could follow OSHA guidelines, but we might not be able to keep you safe.

Atty. Jessica Rosenberg 

So when people have anger, when people have blame, when people want to say my employer should be doing X, Y, and Z, we all have to just accept that there’s risk there because of the nature of this. And I think that what you’re proposing working with your employer, getting, you know, if you have an employer that’s, you know, unaware, or, you know, uninformed, get that information in front of the employer, I think most employers really are trying to do the right thing. And I think if you could get fellow employees to who agree with you to come forward as a group, that’s another thing that you can do to approach HR to approach a manager with a number of you know, there’s power numbers to say, this is what we want to do internally, sometimes that could help change.

Atty. Jessica Rosenberg 

But I do think that everybody’s scrambling a little bit. Everybody, employers, you know, federal agencies, state agencies, they’re really trying maybe some of the requirements might even be too onerous. What I was saying before about employers, so my clients are saying, if we have to do all these steps, that the state is telling us, we just can’t be even be in business. So there’s got to be a middle ground, there’s got to be communication. And I think, you know, paying attention to the guidelines is really helpful, but be paying specific attention to the guidelines, you know, a lot of those questions where people say, my employer is not following the exact guidelines, well, maybe they are down to the letter of the law, if you really look at them. And it’s worth the conversation, it’s worth the conversation where that’s where you start,

Andy Slavitt  58:35

You know, one of the things that I would say to every employer out there who’s listening is there’s no more secrets. There’s no more secrets. So if you think you can have a manager who tells people to do something that’s unsafe, maybe you could in the past, but those things don’t stay secret for very long, any longer. And so, you know, be good, do your best do your job. Everybody out there, stay safe. These are tools that you guys have provided that help, nothing’s foolproof. So it’s all about managing risk. And you know, being asked to choose between your livelihood and your health is unacceptable. We’re just gonna have to manage through this as time goes on. So I really do appreciate your truly wonderful help today. I think this is one of our best episodes, actually.

Dr. Joe Allen 

Thanks for having us on, Andy. And again, yes, great. Thanks for pairing me up with Jessica. I’d really like to hear what you had to say too. So, great podcast all around. You’re even doing a great work early for the whole time really given tools to people so it was a pleasure to be on. Thanks.

Andy Slavitt 

Thank you.

Atty. Jessica Rosenberg 

Great. Thank you so much.

Andy Slavitt 

Wow, thank you. I hope everyone is feeling safer now and is prepared to stay safer because we are not done yet. We’ve got a little bit of time to go here. Let me tell you about our next episodes. On Wednesday, we have the introduction of our new CDC director who was kind enough to allow ourselves to be introduced to the public on our show IN THE BUBBLE. Rochelle Walensky just gonna give you a little bit of preview, you’re going to fall in love with this new CDC director. There were a couple moments in that conversation just having talked to her were just blown away and so excited for what’s to come with the country.

Andy Slavitt  1:00:32

Then on next Monday, we have a Toolkit episode about these new strains that are making their way first seen in the UK and seen in South Africa. We have the virologist at Georgetown University, Angela Rasmussen, who’s been on our program before she’s fabulous. And then we have an evolutionary biologist named Paul Turner from Yale in want to hear how these things evolve. Information is power, even when it’s scary. Sometimes hearing the facts helps us deal with all these things and I think you’ll find the case here I look forward to talking to you on Wednesday, if not tomorrow.

CREDITS

Thanks for listening IN THE BUBBLE. Hope you rate us highly. We’re a production of Lemonada Media. Kryssy Pease and Alex McOwen produced the show. Our mix is by Ivan Kuraev. My son Zach Slavitt is emeritus co-host and onsite producer improved by the much better Lana Slavitt, my wife. Jessica Cordova Kramer and Stephanie Wittels Wachs still rule our lives and executive produced the show. Our theme was composed by Dan Molad and Oliver Hill and additional music by Ivan Kuraev. You can find out more about our show on social media at @LemonadaMedia. And you can find me at @ASlavitt on Twitter or at @AndySlavitt on Instagram. If you like what you heard today, most importantly, please tell your friends to come listen, but still tell them at a distance or with a mask. And please stay safe, share some joy and we will get through this together. #stayhome

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