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Thasunda Brown Duckett was trying to do it all – be a mom, a wife, and a high-powered CEO – when it hit her: work-life balance is a lie. The President and CEO of TIAA tells Reshma how this realization helped her prioritize the myriad things fighting for her time and caused her to become a more present mom to her four children. Thasunda also tells Reshma that she’s learned to live her life knowing that you rent your title but you own your values. Plus, Thasunda offers some accessible financial advice for women in midlife and convinces Reshma to start a Midlife Money group chat with her girlfriends.

Follow Thasunda Brown Duckett on Instagram @thasunda.

You can follow our host Reshma Saujani @reshmasaujani on Instagram.

Let us know how you’re doing in midlife! You can submit your story to be included in this show at speakpipe.com/midlife

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Transcript

SPEAKERS

Thasunda  Duckett, Thasunda Duckett, Reshma Saujani, Speaker 1

Reshma Saujani  00:32

Welcome to My So Called Midlife, a podcast where we figure out how to stop just getting through it and start actually living it. I’m Reshma Saujani, so I really needed this episode this week. My conversation with Thasunda made me feel how I feel like when I’m sitting in church, or when I’m sitting in temple, and, you know, the Reverend just gets up and just tells you exactly what you needed to hear at that moment. That’s what she did for me. I was having a rough week. I needed someone to remind me about what leadership means and what leadership means in this moment. And she did that. She did that by reminding me that you know you rent your title, but you own your values. Isn’t that the truth? She also reminded me about the power of grief. Look like you, and like a lot of mid lifers, we’re at the age. We’re losing people. We’re losing our parents, our friends are losing their parents. Things are happening now that we didn’t know could happen, or things are happening now that we knew were eventually going to happen, which we just weren’t ready. Just weren’t ready. We weren’t ready to let go of that parent that we loved, and so Thasunda’s vulnerability around losing her brother, and the grief that she felt and how she dealt with it and what she did was just so important. And I really needed to hear that lesson. I know you all are going to really need to hear that lesson right now. The other thing we talked about is money. So here’s the thing, one of the biggest Wake Up Calls for me in midlife has been around money, not just how much I have or don’t have, but what does wealth actually mean? What was I taught? What I wasn’t taught? I mean, I lived with two parents who are refugees, who were always stressed about money. My mother never ever went to a store or bought anything unless she had a coupon. And so the way I was raised, the stories that I was told, helped shape my security and stress around money. And look, I know I’m not alone in being alone. Scared and intimidated by conversations about money, if you’re anything like me, you also probably didn’t grow up talking about wealth building or retirement planning at the dinner table. You were told to work hard, save a little and just hope for the best. Don’t take any risks. But the truth is, women, and in particular, women of color, we enter our midlife but we need a different conversation. We need a conversation that’s about power, one that’s about agency, one that’s about getting over our fear of risk, one that’s about designing a life that gives us freedom to shenda Brown Duckett, she is leading that conversation. She’s the president and CEO of TIA, one of the only two black women leading a fortune 500 company. And what’s so powerful about Thasunda is isn’t her title, it’s how she carries it. She is one of the most impressive leaders I have met in a real long time. And I’m telling you, I literally could have an entire wall full of Thasunda quotes. That’s how much she inspires me, because she leads with purpose, purpose and faith, and she’s a deep understanding about who we are and who she is. She’s a financial visionary who kind of breaks it down in a way that just makes it all just a little more accessible. We talked about everything from the myth of work life balance, from grief to how to be a leader, to that nagging add to the cart impulse every time we’re shopping online happened to me this morning, and just how to take control over our finances and our own narratives. As Tashunda, says, money is just never about money. It’s about possibility. I walked away from this conversation feeling so much more empowered about my worth my wealth, and about starting that group chat about money. I hope it does the same thing for you. Let’s bring the money into the conversation.

 

Thasunda  Duckett  06:54

Hello.

 

Reshma Saujani  06:55

Thank you for doing this. So we talk a lot to Thasunda show about midlife mindset, and it literally varies, like for everyone. So some people like, I love this point in my life. Some people like, worst time in my life. Like, how do you feel? Like, what’s your midlife mindset?

 

Thasunda Duckett  07:11

Jill Scott, came into my head. Like, living my life like, it’s golden. I feel exactly it’s, you know, I believe that I’m at the best time in my life, and I think it’s because I have the benefit of perspective and knowing, you know what the 20s meant, or childhood, I couldn’t comprehend everything, right? And then in my 30s, you’re just grinding. But then your 40s hit and things start to you start to be okay with who you are. And then, you know, I just hit this new decade, and I’m like, wow, you know, it’s, it feels good, and I think part of it is just, I’m giving myself a lot more grace. I am so much more confident on who I am. I think I’m able to operate with a lot more intentionality, because I have a lot of lessons that I’ve learned along the way, and I’m just looking forward to this, this next half. I really.

 

Reshma Saujani  08:07

Oh, I’m 49 turning 50 this year, and I’m nervous right now making me You’re making me feel like you’re making me get excited. Because I sometimes, if I was honest, I’m not sure I’m excited, right, but you’re making me feel excited, because everyone says, like, when you hit 50, when you hit 50, you’re just like, oh, like, something shifts.

 

Thasunda Duckett  08:26

You shift. You know that saying that we always hear, like when you’re flying a plane, you have to put the mask on. You know yourself. But the reality is, in our 20s and 30s and maybe in part of our 40s, we were not putting on our mask first. We were doing everything for everyone. We were, you know, whether it’s work for, you know, the company, or whether it’s all the things we do for our kids and your marriage, like all the things, and I think this latter part of your 40s, heading into the 50s, you’re like, This mask is squarely, squarely on my face now, like it is so good, and knowing that it has to be, I think that’s the learning. Like it has to be when you get out of bed, it has to be about you stretching or going to Pilates or working out. It has to be self care. It has to be, you know, your girlfriend time. It has to be my time in order for me to show up well for all the things that I’m trying to get done. So don’t be scared. Do not be sad.

 

Speaker 1  09:25

It has to be you too. So I am. I want to ask you, like, what motivated you in this journey to being this amazing CEO, mom and individual, here’s the and I’m just not saying this because we’re talking you are one of the most impressive leaders I have met in a really long time, and I’ve met most that means a lot coming from you. I have met most of them, and I’ve been in rooms where it’s like you’re leading with love, courage and wisdom. And I’m reading this book right now, which and it reminded me so much of you. It’s, you know, inner excellence by Jim Murphy, where he talks about how, from the perspective of athletes, right? How Great Leaders are not chasing success. They’re chasing their own potential, so they’re competing with themselves. I feel like you relate to that.

 

Thasunda Duckett  10:18

No. I mean, I am chasing purpose, and purpose is uniquely mine, and so I think that is that connection with my own potential. When I think about my journey, I think perspective matters. It’s like understanding history, understanding that no matter how awesome I am, there was a time that this access just would not have been afforded to me, and not forgetting that the perspective that I have in recognizing that I am first generation full integration, you know, just sit in that for a moment, right like my dad grew up in Louisiana. My mother grew up in Alabama. They grew up in the segregated south. And here I am the perspective of understanding that my parents, we were short on money, but we were we were long on love and faith and vision, you know. And my dad would tell me to dream, to reach for the moon. And so I do think success, to me, is not measured by the accolades. It’s measured by this purpose, this purpose to inspire and make positive impact in the world.

 

Reshma Saujani  11:35

You say this title that you have, it’s rented.

 

Thasunda Duckett  11:38

Yeah.

 

Reshma Saujani  11:38

I mean by that.

 

Thasunda Duckett  11:39

So yeah, I always say, you know, I rent my title, I own my character. And saying it out loud, especially in corporate America, it is this nod to affirming to myself that there will be a point in time, no matter how awesome I am, no matter what results I may yield for the company. There will be a time that someone will need to occupy this seat. There may have been times in my own career, or what I tell others where you had a setback, and if you understand that your title is rented, but you own your character, no matter what happens when I leave one job and go into another, I may leave that business card, but I walk away with my ownable assets. I walk away with my curiosity, my grit, my tenacity, those are owned. And so I think the more I have learned to understand the flex for me is not the rented title. The Flex for me is these ownable assets that I have, the more confident I have become, and the less beholden that I am. You know, I understand my purpose, and if it doesn’t work out in this scenario, there’s another purpose for me to get, but my ownable assets stay with me. You don’t get them, and to me that that’s a real flex.

 

Speaker 1  12:57

This conversation is reminding me a lot of the one I had with my friend Justice Jackson. Same thing, you know, she grew up right? Her parents segregated south. Grew up with, like you said, long on love and justice, like you know, they say ketanji, you can be everything in anything. And so she had that sense that, like, there was no mountain that was too high, there was no accolade, there was nothing that was just not obtainable or achievable, right? And she always has this line where she says, you know, you bloom, where you’re planted. You know, what is this role of growing up with so much love, growing up with so much with people telling you, yes, you can be everything and anything that has helped you have kind of the confidence you have today. Because the thing is, let’s be real like you are. You are often walking in spaces with people who don’t look like you, yeah, who don’t have the same story as you. And a lot of young girls that I talked about, Girls Who Code, they really struggle with that, right? They’re made to feel like they don’t belong. What’s your advice for them.

 

Thasunda Duckett  14:01

Well, shout out to Girls Who Code and all the great work that you’ve done and continue to do. You know my advice first is that I decided that I never walk in a room by myself. When I walk into a room, I’m walking in with Otis and Rosie Brown. I am walking in with Miles, Madison and Mackenzie, my children. I am walking in with Shirley Chisholm. I am walking in the room with Rosa like I am walking in the room with all of these amazing women and all of these amazing people living or in the past that affirmed through their example, through their perseverance, or through the love that I have that I belong in this room, and so reminding yourself that you don’t walk into any room by yourself, the rent has been paid. You are walking in through a position of ownership that allows me to go, okay, all right. Shirley, what we gonna do today? […] Yeah, all right, that is that Indian miles. You know this gonna be, this is going to be interesting. And I am reminded that I belong in this room. And I would say to young girls, not only do you belong in this room, your assignment is clear. You are to speak, you are to say, you are to bring your perspective and yes, the reality is that initial, you know, feeling less than or do I really belong? Is this really happening? All of that, I let that breathe and then let it move on, like I saw in the same breath that my parents were telling me to reach for the moon at the same time I opened up the refrigerator and only saw baking soda. At the same time I saw struggle, and yet they were telling me that you do not own that struggle. You own your excellence and so pouring into me that you don’t just keep those positive affirmations. You keep those lessons. And I think keeping them both, and that’s what as you know, I try to do. I bring that perspective, not just look at me now, I talk about the source of that, and I think bringing both of those together is what allows me to have my shoulders back and to know if I am first generation full integration that perspective and mindset says I will not miss that moment in a room. I do belong in that room, even if I am feeling a little uneasy.

 

Reshma Saujani  16:36

It’s beautiful. You’re literally making me cry. Such a tribute to our families and our ancestors, and our elders right that we are here.

 

Reshma Saujani  19:23

Why money? What about that? Then drove you to finance?

 

Thasunda Duckett  23:29

Why money? One looking at it through the rear view mirror. Money insecurity was always there, and I felt it. And then Mr. And Ms Patterson, who were family friends, told me about a program called inroads. And inroads is a program for minorities to get exposure into corporate America. Remember, talent is created equally. Opportunity is not That’s right. What inroads has done for me and for so many others was brought the talent to the opportunity. And what’s crazy about this story is that the power of information was the program inroads. I never heard the word corporate America, but then the power of advocacy, when I didn’t even know what advocacy meant, a woman by the name of Valerie Manning had one job, and that was to find one intern on that day, and she interviewed a bunch of students, and Valerie Manning went back to work and said, I found our intern. Her name is Sarah. My name’s not Sarah, but Valerie Manning, for whatever reason, said, but there’s this other girl, and if you know, you do not get a bonus by adding a second intern. But for whatever reason, Valerie Manning said those words. I started my career at Fannie Mae, and those two moments, those two disruptors in my life, connected my story around financial insecurity, the fact that my parents did not own a home, to this dream of home ownership in corporate America that then led me down a path of understanding the impact and the imperative of financial dignity, I was able to connect to the life lessons I learned along the way, and that is why I can bring this different perspective into corporate America and into the C suite, is because I choose to stay connected. So that’s how it started.

 

Reshma Saujani  25:37

So now you’re this huge advocate for retirement savings, and I want to talk about women in retirement, because I think a lot of us right now, we’re not even thinking about it. You’ve highlighted that 40% of Americans are at risk of running out of retirement savings, with women and black Americans being particularly vulnerable. That’s scary. And when you look at the numbers for women, it’s even more alarming. So, as you know, women retire with 30% less than men. Why do you think that is like, what are the factors that are contributing to that?

 

Thasunda Duckett  26:11

Okay, let’s go. First. I have to tell you this, like the fact that I am leading TIAA. When I graduated from college, I happened to be looking at my dad’s statement Otis Brown, and the daughter is telling the father, who at the time were probably over 30 years Dad, you don’t have enough to retire. And by the way, you have a 401 k plan, he had not $1 in it.

 

Reshma Saujani  26:42

No, not even $1.

 

Thasunda Duckett  26:44

Not $1 now, my dad worked in the warehouse. He scanned boxes and for the daughter to tell the father that you have access to this really, really great 401 k plan. And for decades, he never contributed $1 that lit me up, because all he said was what happened? Because here’s the thing, he worked in the warehouse so many times. You know, we have as leaders and companies. We have great brochures, we have great seminars. The question is not, do we have all the things on paper? The question that we have to ask ourselves, Is it reaching the person furthest from us? And the reality is, no one went to Otis Brown, no one went to the people in the mail room to say, you have this benefit that you are entitled to that can change the course of your family’s life. If someone said that to Otis Brown, the man who moved around that relocated in a car with everything we owned, that man would do anything for us. And the moment I told my dad, he immediately started to catch up. And by the way, I was making $26,000 so it wasn’t like I had no idea what I would become. But the point is that is also, when you say, what is the issue? It is not that there’s not the things. Is that the things are not reaching the people who need it the most. And then when you layer that on, when you talk about women or people of color, you have to go back to structure, structure that had exclusions, exclusions to really good jobs. And so part of that is you started behind women did not have access to the same type of jobs. This is why you do Girls Who Code. We also know there’s the pay gap. So if you’re making less on dollar one, it’s going to compound less over time. We also know that women exit the workforce, whether that’s you have a baby, or to take care of our family or all the things, at a much higher rate than men, which means that’s less contribution to catch up on. We also know divorce happens, and so all of that compounds in a way that we end up with less and or as people of color, we end up with less because we started with less and we don’t have different access points to be able to soften the blow. So in a retirement plan. You hear the stories where people will take money out to help their child go to school, and that I get the problem is we don’t get back on track, and now you’re 50, 60, 70, years old, and you’re not able to work two and three jobs to catch up.

 

Reshma Saujani  29:37

That’s right, someone had said to me, it’s the reason why Reshma, you see so many more women in senior citizen homes because of all these structural things right that leave him with less money, less empowerment, less kind of autonomy over their own decisions, even when it comes to social security, if you and if your husband ends up dying, you don’t get all of it. You get like half of it or something, right? It’s all.

 

Thasunda Duckett  30:00

All these women live longer than men, right? We live longer than men, which means that’s a longer time to try to figure it all out. You’re spot on.

 

Reshma Saujani  30:09

Yeah, so outside of policy, what are some steps that you would advise women to do, kind of in midlife, knowing this, knowing that this is all kind of likely to happen, what can we do now to prepare?

 

Thasunda Duckett  30:20

This is why I love this question, especially when you say we’re at midlife. You know, it’s the quote by Maya Angelou. When we know better, we do better, and we do it without judgment, and money is emotional. So the first thing we need to acknowledge is, yes, money is emotional. Take a breath and forgive yourself. I think that’s really important. It is absolutely okay to bring the sisterhood into the conversation, to be able to say, All right, we’re here at our midlife how are we going to change the outcome of all the things we talk about and actually make it happen and do it together? I think it’s important to be okay, looking at that balance sheet, pulling up that credit score, you know, pulling up that savings account, looking at your retirement plan. And then, when you know better, you do better. So here are some simple things. One, check your company and make sure, are you at least maxing out to the point of their match. If not, you’re leaving coins on the table. You’re leaving compounding on the table, and you’re leaving the benefit that comes with retirement plans on the table. Secondly, if you’re like, well, okay, I don’t see the money to do that. You might have bought that venti. Starbucks, buy a Grande and move the money into your savings account and spare change, period. And also, here’s a big one, especially for women without judgment. You know, this online thing can get a little ridiculous, right? Go online. You’re shopping. It’s a sale, or it’s just, you know, good pricing. Click […], I want you to click until it is almost laughable how much you have in the cart, like, you know, you can’t check out. Just keep clicking and then wait a day, never check out. So click all you want, and wait a day, and then you go back, I promise you, if you wait a day, you’ve got the fix of the energy of all the things. And then you go back, and you just don’t click Checkout, and instead you move $100 into your savings account. You lose $50 so the point is, get your fix. Click away, shoes, outfit, purse, all the things. Wait 24 hours, go back and then move $50 or $100 or whatever it is into your savings. You do that, you’ll start to see the power of compounding, the power of saving, the power of then contributing to your retirement plan. You’ll start to see it and do it with some girlfriends, like every time you go shopping online, send that screenshot to your friends like it’s laughable at 50 items in the cart, and we all laugh and go 24 hour rule, and then send them the picture back of you moving money into your savings or moving money into your retirement. That will be so much fun, and it will be so crazy how expensive that car got, 10,000 it doesn’t matter the amount, it just starts to look ridiculous, and to the point that you start to save.

 

Speaker 1  33:25

I love this. So also you’ve taught me that, like barely half of American women, have an emergency fund. Again, worse for people of color, right? Worse For Black and Latino American women. What could we be doing to build this emergency fund?

 

Thasunda Duckett  33:41

Well, you have to start small. And I think, you know, this is why I talk about the coffee or the, you know, shopping, because most people can’t see $400 like, I just don’t have it. And so the key is to start small. To start small, to start smart, meaning you take action, you know. And then I think, if you start small and you start if you start now and you start small, over time, you can get to that $400 I mean, if you think about it, that’s one less happy hour you go to. Instead of getting your nails done once a week, get it once a month, that’s $35 right there. Look at your financial habits, and if you say, what are some of the everyday financial habits that I will just move over into my savings, you will see that $400 sooner than what you could imagine. And I think for women in particular, we do so much on autopilot. Your child had a good day at school. You want to reward them. You take them out to eat. Your mother calls you and says, I need something. You give even when we don’t have that’s just who we are. And I think taking that pause is. Say, Have I done something small for myself first? And so if I was going to buy the three boxes, I’m going to buy the one and I’m going to move the other two into my account, because I need to have that $400 those are those healthy habits, small habits along the way that can help you get going and start to see that you do have a little bit more liquidity than you thought. And I think it’s just practical and pragmatic. Until you get to that next job or that next promotion, there’s things you can do. And I think so many of us wait and say, Well, when I get that next job or when I get that next promotion, I’ll be able to and I just want to encourage us to find those small moments to reward ourselves to get to that emergency fund.

 

Speaker 1  35:43

So it’s interesting. You keep talking about the sisterhood, almost like this group chat, right? And it’s funny because I see Nahal do this with his guys. Oh, you gotta check out this stock. See what’s happening with the video. And I got a lot of group chats on a lot of things, but I don’t want to have one on money, you know. So have you seen good like communities of women coming together? Yeah, tell us how to create one.

 

Thasunda Duckett  36:06

You know, five friends that you truly trust, the ones that you talk about, the things you know, the things these are women who you trust. And I think especially in every circle, you have the friend that is all about her business. You have the friend that will make you laugh about our business. You have the friend who is working on her business, and you have the friend that talks that business. So we all play a role, but I think you’ll get to smile. We’re talking about money and we’re smiling. So I think if you sent a note out to five friends today and you said, hey, y’all, my money is funny and very interesting, but, you know, I have goals and ambition, and I have a girls trip that I really want us to go to. How about we get together and just make sure we’re all aligned about money? I guarantee you, I guarantee you the real talk, and there will be tears when you get together with the wine. Because what happens is, we’ll start to tell our real story. We’ll start to say, You know what, when I was in college, I made these really bad decisions, and this happened, and I got real into credit card debt, or, you know what, I was doing, okay? And then someone got sick, and I had to max out, and so I’m struggling, or, you know what, I’m overwhelmed, and then by having those stories, we start to do our research, which is what we do to say, oh, there’s a woman like Lynette kilfani, Cox, the money coach, who we can reach out to and ask her to pop into our little chat and give us some tips. This is how we do it. The guys do it their way. This is how we do it. We do it with wine, we do it with tears, we do it with laughter, and then we do the research, and we get going. That, to me, is the power of sisterhood, and I think we have to bring finance to the sisterhood chat.

 

Speaker 1  37:51

I’m doing this to Shunda, like literally, after we’re done, I’m gonna let go, do my, create my group chat I got, I’m thinking about what, what I’m gonna name it so they’ll come to me.

 

Thasunda Duckett  38:02

Mid life. Money mid life […]

 

Reshma Saujani  40:03

Oh, girl, that’s a good one, all right, Midlife Money

 

Speaker 1  40:12

I want to talk to you about being a mom, and you’re a very hands on mom. I love following you on IG, seeing what you’re up to with your family and your kids. One of the things I love is hearing you talk about what you really think about the term work life balance?

 

Thasunda Duckett  45:17

Work life balance is a lie. I think we all have to say it, and I had to learn that the hard way, right? Because, again, I’m in my 30s, and I have two kids, and I’m working and driven, and I remember I would literally drive to a bus stop to then take the bus commuter to New York to then either walk to the office, which is like 25 minutes, or catch a cab every day and do it in reverse. And I remember I was at the Port Authority in New York, and it was the last bus. And the last bus, everyone is going to the casino. There’s no more commuter people from work. And I look around, and I see an older man cleaning the Port Authority. And I break down. And I call my husband, and I said, when I wake up in the morning, I don’t see my kids, and when I get home, I don’t see my kids, and I am just failing now my husband, as you know, is a stay at home dad. He’s a marine and an engineer, and he says, without hesitation, then quit. That’s not the point, right? But his point was, if this is not working, we’ll pivot now. We’ll need to make some changes, but we’ll pivot. At that moment, I started to realize that this work life was never going to reconcile, and so I was never feeling great. I never felt like I was a great mom, great at work, great spouse, great this, because it never reconciled. So I shifted my perspective. And I am into finance, so I said, I’m going to live my life like a diversified portfolio. And what that means and everyone it’s game changing. You tell yourself the truth, you only have 100% how many times we tell ourselves it’s 100 tell ourselves it’s 120 No, you don’t. It’s 100 it’s 100 you do not have 120% that’s a lie. You have 100 and then think about everything that matters to me, being a mom, an executive, a philanthropist, a mentor, a friend, an auntie, and you allocate. And the reality is that my children only get 30% of my time by telling myself that truth, I became a much more present mom. How many times our kids are around, we’re doing five things and I’m texting and, yep, mommy here, yeah, that’s cute. All the time, all the time, until I realized they only have 30% and when I realized that I became a more present mom. And here’s the point, if you allocate everything that brings you joy into your portfolio, even if it’s just 1% just like your money, you want it to be diversified, there will be market volatility. There will be life volatility. Sometimes you have to short the stock. Just gotta let it go and reallocate. When my brother died, I had to reallocate my portfolio to being a sister to being an auntie to being a mother. When I got my new CEO job at TIAA, had to allocate more time. So it’s giving myself grace to respond to market needs. And here is the Flex, if you live your life like a diversified portfolio, over time, you will outperform this thing called life. And so I know that my kids don’t have 100% but within that 30% they now get 100 I know that I may not be a great mom when I’m traveling like crazy, but over time, I’m a really good mom. There’s times I don’t feel like I’m a good daughter because my parents live in Texas and I’m on the east coast, but over time, I’m an amazing daughter. So I am living my best life, because everything that brings me joy is in my allocation, if not you sell it.

 

Speaker 1  49:24

I love that. I mean, I think one of the things that’s helped me do that is I’m ruthless about my schedule, like ruthless, and I just don’t have the same guilt, like, I’m like, I don’t need to go to that event at night, you know, because I kind of rather be on the couch watching Peppa the pig with my kids. And I think when you’re ruthless about your schedule, but that means I spend a lot of time looking at it. I spend a lot of time moving things around. I spend a lot, like everybody on my team knows, and I got you put in blocks of time, but I love this. It’s like, you’re honest about the time you have and where you’re going to put it, and then you’re fully present.

 

Thasunda Duckett  49:59

No, it gives you the. Ability to say no, because if I’ve allocated 5% to be a mentor, and everyone’s still asking, do you have 15 more minutes, I can say no, because I now have language to say, if I give you those 15 more minutes on my mentor allocation, I’m taking away from my family time, because I will be under allocated in another area that brings me joy and that has helped me a ton to feel K say, no.

 

Speaker 1  50:28

Can I ask you something about grief? Because I do think in midlife, we’re all experiencing a lot of loss that comes from different places. You lost your incredible brother, Jamal, in 2022 and you said something in your tribute that really stuck with me. You said, Yes, I am a leader striving to make a positive difference, but I’m also a sister carrying a broken heart, and it’s important to me to not just share what’s awesome, but what also hurts.

 

Thasunda Duckett  50:58

You know, I grief is love with no place to go, and going through this grief journey, it’s like the show, this is us. It’s like there were eight different scenarios happening at the same time. I saw the grief of my younger brother, who couldn’t even drive to the hospital because the anxiety was just overwhelming. I saw the strength of a mother trying to reconcile it all and leaning on her faith to the point that it was scary to see the grief of a father, grief of his children. His youngest child was a senior in college. The truth is life was never promised to live to a certain age, so there was nothing to say. You promised me something that you did not give. The truth is that if God told me, I will give you 49 years of an amazing brother who is your biggest fan, who would check on you, sis, you do everything. How you doing? Like so suave and make me laugh, and just so proud of you. And he set such an example in so many ways. I’ll give you that for 49 years, and I’m going to take them from you. Do you want it? Because when it happens, it’s going to gut you. I take give me those 49 years. And so what I am learning in this midlife is life be lifeing. Joy comes in the morning. I grieve Him and will forever grieve Him, but the joy of what he means, the joy of being able to count my blessings every day, has compounded. This passion of purpose has intensified this level of taking a breath. All of it are the lessons that are available through grief, and that, to me, is what I’m holding on to and knowing, some days I can say those things to you when some days I will be a hot mess crying, and I’m crying because I loved the gift is that I got to experience an amazing brother. The gift is that He’s forever in my heart, and the gift is that he is always available for me whenever I need him.

 

Reshma Saujani  53:40

And he’s with God cheering you on every single day.

 

Thasunda Duckett  53:43

He is too easy. That’s what he would always say, like, Jay, can you go check and paint moms? Too easy. Too easy. So, you know, that’s the thing. He was just like, whatever I would ask him to do, he would just go too easy, sis, I got you, and he still has me, but grief and I will tell you at work, sometimes when we’re going through something, we try to keep it all together and show up at work as if nothing happened. The reality is, it’s like back in the day, there was a saying my mom would say, your slip is showing meaning you think you have it all together, but the slip is just trailing this cute outfit. And so with grief, or when you’re dealing with family and issues, trying to keep it all together. Because, you know, I don’t want anyone think I’m weak. Your slip is showing anyway, someone everyone knows something is wrong. And so what I have chosen to do is even with my board, while I was in the height of the grief and I had a board meeting, when I came back, I said to them, I don’t know how I’m going to respond. I might break down and cry. It is not the feedback you’re giving me. It’s this grief, but I shared it. Do you know so many people came back, the number of people that added their beneficiary went up, and so my point is, when your life is lifeing, there’s also space for a testimony. There’s space to remind people I am human. It that, to me, is another lesson that I’ve learned through grief.

 

Speaker 1  55:04

Such a powerful lesson to share, because I think a lot of us don’t do that right? We try to like again.

 

Thasunda Duckett  55:11

It’s showing you walking around being all proper, looking cute slip showing everyone is seeing your mess.

 

Speaker 1  55:19

This conversation was like everything and more. Thank you so much for your honesty, your vulnerability and your wisdom.

 

Thasunda Duckett  55:29

This was such a pleasure. Thank you so much for reminding me that I am living my best life, scars and all so wonderful. Thank you [..]

 

Reshma Saujani  55:52

Thasunda Brown Duckett is the president and CEO of TIAA. One last thing. Thank you so much for listening to My So Called Midlife if you haven’t yet, now’s a great time to subscribe to Lemonada Premium. You’ll get bonus content like Dr Mary Claire haver talking about resistance training and walking with the weighted vest. Just hit the subscribe button on the Apple podcast, or for all the other podcast apps, head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe. That’s lemonadapremium.com. Thanks, and we’ll be back next week.

 

CREDITS  56:24

I’m your host, Reshma Saujani. Our associate producer is Isaura Aceves, and our senior producer is Kryssy Pease.  This series is Sound Design by Ivan Kuraev. Ivan also composed our theme music and performed it with Ryan Jewell and Karen Waltuck.  Our VP of new content is Rachel Neel.  Special thanks to our development team, Hoja Lopez, Jamela Zarha Williams and Alex McOwen. Executive Producers include me, Reshma Saujani, Stephanie Whittle Wachs and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Series consulting and production support from Katie Cordova. Help others find our show by leaving a rating and writing a review and let us know how you’re doing in midlife. You can submit your story to be included in this show at speakpipe.com/midlife. Follow My So Called Midlife, wherever you get your podcast, or listen ad free on Amazon music with your Prime membership, thanks so much for listening. See you next week, bye.