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On this episode of Wiser Than Me, Julia is joined by 78-year-old actress Glenn Close, who reflects on growing up in the Moral Re-Armament cult, her iconic work in Fatal Attraction and the new Knives Out, and the tenacity, talent, and forgiveness that have shaped her life. She also shares the impact of her grandmothers, how becoming one has changed her, and an incredible reveal from the set of The Natural. Meanwhile, Julia and her mother Judy dive into the fiery women in their own family tree.

 

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Transcript

SPEAKERS: Julia Louis-Dreyfus, Glenn Close, Mommy

[00:00:00] Julia: Every actor who’s been around for a minute has an audition story, and here is mine. You may have heard part of this story before, but I want you to hear the whole thing. This was a really long time ago, like between SNL and Seinfeld, and I was living in New York and I got an audition for the movie about last night.

[00:00:21] This was a movie with a lot of heat on it. It was being directed by Ed Zwick, and it was based on a play by David Mamet, the preeminent American playwright of the day. And it had been adapted by my close Chicago pal, Tim Krinski. And the role that I was auditioning for was Joan, the Cynical Friend, which is, you know, come on, let’s face it.

[00:00:43] That’s like. Right in my wheelhouse. So okay, I go to this hotel for the audition and I’m in the hallway waiting for my turn to go in and from inside the room I hear this big laugh and out comes de me more, who was like peak brat pack at that moment. And she did this adorable little twirl and everybody was waving goodbye to her and they were craning their necks to see her go.

[00:01:12] She was so beautiful. And that’s when the casting assistant says, Julie Lloyd Dreyfus. And I’m like, oh fuck, I have to follow that. I mean, even though I wasn’t reading for the same part as Demi Moore, I mean her, just her confidence and the fact that she had obviously killed in the room, it was just also very intimidating.

[00:01:34] I remember exactly nothing about the audition, and that gives you an idea of the trauma that I experienced for the next three minutes or so. It was terrible and it should have been great. I mean, I was right for the part. I was prepared that it was such a disaster, was a total fluke. All I needed was another chance.

[00:01:56] But of course, you know, you don’t get another chance unless you get called back, and I really wasn’t getting called back for that. That was for sure. So guess what I did. I went home and I wrote the director, ed Zwick, a handwritten note, and I was completely honest and I begged him for one more chance. I told him that I knew I could just nail the role of Joan.

[00:02:20] And I took the note back to the hotel and I gave it to the concierge who told me that he would absolutely deliver it personally to Mr. Zwick, which he did. And you know what? Ed Swick is not only a wonderful director, but he’s also a wonderful man. And he said, absolutely, come back tomorrow. We would be so very happy to see you again.

[00:02:43] And I ran that Jones scene a thousand times in my apartment that night, and the next day just brimming with confidence and buoyed by my display of classic, you know, show. Biz chutzpah. I walked back into that room where I could feel Ed Zwick and the producers rooting for me because I’d taken a chance and it was paying off 11 months later, almost to the day about last night opened.

[00:03:13] And guess what? When I nervously read the review in the New York Times, they didn’t love the movie, but they said, standing out in the role of Joan, a kindergarten teacher who says very funny and very rude things to men in a singles bar, is the excellent Elizabeth Perkins. 

[00:03:37] Oh my God. Not for the faint of heart.

[00:03:41] This show 

[00:03:41] business. That’s why one of my, oh God, my favorite things in the world is an actor over 70 who is still working, still risking everything on stage or in front of a camera and has great stories to tell. I think it’s kind of heroic really. How fitting then that today we get to talk to Glen Close.

[00:04:14] I am Julia Louis Dreyfus, and this is Wiser than me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me.

[00:04:38] So you’re walking along a creek in Bozeman, Montana. Swe peak rises nearly 10,000 feet above the snow crunches underfoot as you move through the beautiful untamed wilderness. And then up ahead you see her, a woman with the most striking, gorgeous white hair moving confidently through the snow. And yeah, it’s Glen Close who is now settled in Bozeman among Bears and Mountain Bluebird being, you know, fabulous Glen Close.

[00:05:13] I got to watch her in Fatal Attraction again last night. And lemme tell you something, that movie holds up and you know why it holds up. Because Glenn Close has this weight, this power, this inner light, this complete commitment when she takes a role. Any role, Alex Flores, Patty Hughes. Albert knobs and hundreds more.

[00:05:35] Man, she loves to work. I can’t believe how much this woman works for every role. She engineers a real person. Even when it’s Cruella Deville, Glenn Close makes it the real. Cruella Deville, the Cruella, who would do all of those horrible, terrible, Cruella things and she still gets all the laughs and on stage.

[00:05:54] Good Lord. I was lucky enough to see her on Broadway and Sunset Boulevard, and it was a full on. Tour divorce for real. Glen didn’t grow up like most actors. She grew up inside the MRAA fundamentalist movement. She later called a cult. Somehow she emerged from that with an enormous heart and a capacity for compassion and forgiveness that shows up in all of her performances, on the screen and on stage Beyond performing, she co-founded Bring Change to Mind with her sister Jessie, turning a family struggle into a mission to break the stigma around mental illness, reaching 2 billion people and supporting tens of thousands of students along the way.

[00:06:35] She’s won to Tony’s and Golden Globes and Emmy’s and is an eight time Oscar nominee. That is right. Eight times this year, she became a first time grandmother, which feels like a great way for her to start her third act. Welcome, mother, sister, and actor, producer, writer, and now grandmother. And a woman who is so much wiser than me.

[00:06:56] Glenn Close. Hi, Glen. Hi. Hi. I do not think I’m wise at all. Well, we’ll see somehow I think you’re, you are quite wise and I’m delighted to have you here. What an honor and a treat. Great 

[00:07:12] Glenn: to be with you. 

[00:07:13] Julia: Okay. So you live in Montana. Mm-hmm. Although I’m talking to you now, you’re in Berlin, which is a far cry from Bozeman, Montana.

[00:07:22] What, what does a good day look like for you in Bozeman? Are you a hiker? Do you get out in the mountains or? I love 

[00:07:28] Glenn: to hike. I, I love to hike. Uh, but I’m so, oh God, the, I think probably the best luckiest thing that ever happened in my life is that before the big onslaught of people moving to Bozeman, that started during CVID, I was able to find a piece of land that had actually been on the market for seven years, and I was able to buy it.

[00:07:54] Wow. And that is my legacy. To my daughter and her husband and their child, and to my family. Um, we’re right up against the bridgers and the property goes up into the national forest. There will be nothing in between us and that. And we have mountain lions, elk, moose, deer, bears, what you know, grouse. And it’s.

[00:08:23] The greatest gift of my life. Oh, it is. 

[00:08:27] Julia: I love that you were able to create that for yourself. And you recreated your grandparents’ cottage. Is this correct? 

[00:08:36] Glenn: Oh yeah. That was kind of weird. My grandparents didn’t actually live in a cottage. They lived in a house that was bigger than a cottage. Yes. But they had this wonderful stone cottage on their farm, on their property that I think originally had been a slaughterhouse.

[00:08:55] Oh God. But it was made into this, this really cozy cottage, and that was my first memory in that little cottage. Got it. Stone. It had ivy on the front. It had a literally a. White picket fence around it in the middle of a hay field and woods. Um, so I decided when I was building this house, ’cause I’m living my life backwards, um, the behind the house, I was gonna build a cottage, a stone cottage because the happiest and most, uh, inspiring years of my life was in that place.

[00:09:32] And I have decided that I am going to end my days in that cottage. So there’s two bedrooms for me and my caretaker eventually. And that’s where I’m gonna, that’s where I’m gonna. Die. 

[00:09:49] Julia: Oh my God. Happily. That is extraordinary. That’s extraordinary. Is it, it’s actually built now or you’re building it? 

[00:09:57] Glenn: Yes.

[00:09:57] There. I think the stone part is built and I think this week they’re, start with a porch is a little porch that goes down onto a terrace, is between, uh, the cottage in the bigger house. Oh yeah. It makes me so happy. It makes me so happy to think that, 

[00:10:16] Julia: I think that’s such an incredible thing to really, uh, you call it living your life backwards, but you’re really, um, sort of in control of things in a way that most people don’t get the opportunity to, to do.

[00:10:33] And I think that’s. Extraordinary that you’ve been able to pull that off. And I’m just now thinking I gotta build a cottage around here for myself. I gotta build a two bedroom cottage. I gotta figure that one out. I’m gonna do that. Yeah. Yeah. So tell me, are you comfortable if I ask your real age? 78. How old do you feel?

[00:10:59] Glenn: Oh God. I feel, um, probably around in my twenties. Oh really? Maybe early thirties. 

[00:11:06] Julia: How is that, why is that? What is it about feeling that younger age? 

[00:11:11] Glenn: I don’t know. I just, I don’t, when I think of how old I actually am, it just amazes me. So I don’t think about it much. Yeah. ’cause I don’t think I fit into whatever people expect you to be like when you’re 78 years old.

[00:11:25] Yeah. Um. I’m thinking about a lot because I had this experience when I was really, really little, where I was sitting in this open field plucking, I used to like to pluck the, you know, the juicy parts of clover blossoms and bite down on them ’cause they’re sweet. But I all of a sudden started concentrating on my hand and then my fingers came down and plucked up the little piece of the clover.

[00:11:53] Yeah. Put it in my mouth. And I realized that. What was ever making that hand work was not really who I am. That who I am was whatever, was looking out of my eyes. And I felt that my body is just the particular house I was put in on this planet. And I feel, thank God, it’s kind of, you know, is aging, kind of needs a little bit of renovation, but um, no, it’s holding up pretty well.

[00:12:26] But I really feel like who I am is always been whatever is looking out of my eyes. 

[00:12:31] Julia: I’m absolutely fascinated that you tell that story because it sounds like you had an awareness of your soul at that young tender age. Correct. It’s what it 

[00:12:44] Glenn: is. I, I, if that’s, if that’s what it was, but I certainly had an awareness 

[00:12:49] Julia: Wow.

[00:12:50] Glenn: That there was something that I was very. Aware of the mechanics of my arm and my hand and my fingers doing that particular act. And I felt that it was different that the body that was 

[00:13:06] Julia: holding it, 

[00:13:08] Glenn: holding it, and yeah, doing that action, I felt I was the observer of that. 

[00:13:14] Julia: Hmm. It’s an incredible thing to consider and that you became an actor.

[00:13:20] That is a, in a strange way, it’s almost like an acting awareness, huh? Isn’t 

[00:13:26] Glenn: it? Kind of, you know? Yeah. Because I think, I think of acting as, you know, looking into someone else’s eyes and reflecting 

[00:13:34] Julia: Yeah. 

[00:13:35] Glenn: Off of that. Right. And the most powerful thing in film is the closeup doesn’t exist on stage, but the closeup, when it’s.

[00:13:45] Well used by a director will keep an audience emotionally engaged because it’s like you are looking into somebody else’s eyes 

[00:13:54] Julia: up 

[00:13:54] Glenn: close. Uhhuh. I don’t think there’s anything more powerful than two eyes looking into two eyes. And I think that’s one of the reasons why we all seem to be, you know, floating in this, you know, almost dystopian world because we’re getting further and further away from that is not the same the way you and I are looking at each other through a screen.

[00:14:15] Julia: Yeah. 

[00:14:16] Glenn: It’s just not the same. It’s 

[00:14:17] Julia: not the same. Um, what do you think is the best part about being your age, Glen, do you think? 

[00:14:23] Glenn: The best 

[00:14:23] Julia: part? Yeah, the best part. I wonder. Oh, the best part is, first of all, 

[00:14:29] Glenn: oh God. I mean, there’s a lot of, I mean, I’m, I am, I’m living my life backwards. I feel like I’m, I’m just probably discovering more now than I ever have.

[00:14:42] I, I. I feel I’m finally maybe getting the place where I can settle into who I am. Mm. And not have to worry about pleasing people all the time. Oh, that’s nice. Which was a really, you know, big thing to try to deal with. Yeah. Um, and another great thing is that you’ve had experience. Yeah. I mean, even in my profession, in my craft, you know, you feel like there, there are more possibilities because you know more, you’ve done more, you’ve learned more.

[00:15:14] Yeah. And also, I really love the fact that I’ve known some people for a very long time. I like having a history with people, beginning with my family. Of course. Yeah. 

[00:15:28] Julia: It really means a lot to me. 

[00:15:29] Glenn: Yeah. 

[00:15:30] Julia: Hey, I know you have a new grand baby. What kind of grandma are you? Do you like being a grandmother? Oh. I love being 

[00:15:36] Glenn: a grandmother.

[00:15:38] And we, we FaceTime. In fact, we FaceTimed about an hour ago. He’s growing up so fast. He was born in February during a snowstorm. 

[00:15:45] Julia: Oh, 

[00:15:46] Glenn: were you there 

[00:15:47] Julia: for 

[00:15:47] Glenn: that? Yeah. And, and I was there kind of by a miracle ’cause I was doing all’s fair in la. Mm-hmm. And, um, uh, it was around the times of the fires. The fires weren’t a miracle.

[00:15:59] The fires were horrendous. Yeah. But, um, we were on a hiatus for a week and it was during that time that he was born, so I was there. 

[00:16:08] Julia: Oh wow. Okay. So you got to be there. 

[00:16:11] Glenn: Yeah. 

[00:16:11] Julia: Yeah. And are you very a part of his life and as a grandma, how does that work? How are you. 

[00:16:20] Glenn: Doing all of this. I try to be as much of a part as I can, but I know that it’s important for my daughter, Annie and her husband, mark and Rory is his name.

[00:16:31] They have their family unit. Yeah. You know? Mm-hmm. You don’t always wanna have grandma hanging out. Yeah. So sometimes I’ll say, can I come over? Uh, but I think we’ve, I think we have it pretty well worked out. I think they know, of course, how much time, how much it means to me 

[00:16:46] Julia: Yeah. 

[00:16:46] Glenn: To be with him and just I’m, I love getting in his playpen and playing with him and just watching him figure things out.

[00:16:55] Mm-hmm. He has wonderful concentration. I love that. I mean, I could practically hear his brain cells popping, you know, his little fingers to make him, you know, first he can’t grab stuff, and then he grabs it and then he can look at it, and then he, it’s just. You know, I was working when Annie was born. She was only seven weeks old when I went over to do dangers liaisons.

[00:17:19] Oh. 

[00:17:20] So I was lucky enough to have a, a magnificent woman with me. Um, but I wasn’t, I didn’t spend the kind of time that Annie has spent with Rory, uh, because I was working. So it’s almost like I’m reliving her babyhood through her son’s babyhood and kind of filling in the gaps that I missed. 

[00:17:47] Julia: Can you talk about that, about the, the, uh, experience of working the way you did with a child and how, I mean, I understand in the beginning you had dangers, liaisons, but then what happened after that?

[00:18:02] How did you, uh. Sort of straddle it all. What did you learn from that experience? Because that’s, that’s hard. It’s massive demand both at work. I mean, incredible. Well, you’ve, you’ve gone through it. You know what it is. 

[00:18:18] Glenn: I’ve gone through it. It’s, you’re cut in half I think. Certainly. Uh, I could only speak as a woman.

[00:18:24] Yeah, of course. ’cause that’s what we are. But I think as soon as you have a child, you’re basically cut in half. 

[00:18:29] Mm-hmm. 

[00:18:30] Uh, half of you is with your child and half of you is with you. And it’s, I think that’s why women age faster than men, perhaps because you don’t sleep as well, because your ear always tuned towards your child.

[00:18:41] Julia: Would you have done anything differently, do you think, looking back on that period of time? No, 

[00:18:48] Glenn: the only, I mean, the, I mean, I have to say where I was so lucky was that I could afford help. Yeah, me too. Exactly. And if I couldn’t have afforded help, I would’ve had to stop working and working was the way I.

[00:19:03] Made my living and could afford taking care of my child. Right. But, you know, I’d come to a point in my career where it was just around, I remember I was really, really sick with, you know, I had just gotten pregnant and I, and I was throwing up all the time and it was the opening of Fatal Attraction. Oh, wow.

[00:19:25] And I was pregnant and I, I remember after the screening in New York, there was a big party at Taverna The Green. Mm-hmm. And all I could eat was rice. I was so throwing up all the time. Oh, 

[00:19:39] Julia: you poured soul. 

[00:19:41] Glenn: Oh.

[00:19:47] Julia: It is time for a break more with Glen close in just a moment. And by the way, we just launched a Wiser Than Me newsletter where you can get behind the scenes details from my conversation with Glen and More. You can subscribe now at Wiser than me.substack.com. You’ll get photos and videos, letters from me.

[00:20:06] Think exclusive bonus snippets, glimpses behind the scenes of the making of the podcast, a deeper dive into every guest, plus a place to connect with other Wiser than me listeners. I hope you subscribe at Wiser than me.substack.com and stick around to see what we have in store. Be right back.

AD BREAK 1 20:31

[00:20:32] Hey, wait a minute. What about the can, uh, the getting pregnant around the time of Fatal Attraction, when you shot the movie, were you pregnant or was it just right after the movie? 

[00:20:42] Glenn: No, this is crazy. This is crazy. So we shot the, the original movie. 

[00:20:47] Mm-hmm. 

[00:20:48] And I remember we ended in December. Yeah. And it wasn’t until the following summer that I was told they wanted to reshoot the ending.

[00:21:00] Ah, 

[00:21:01] I was very lucky I hadn’t cut my hair, but, um, I was pregnant during that whole reshoot when I was doing the stuff in the bathtub and getting slammed against the, you know, the, um, medicine cabinet by Michael. Um, and it was after that that I, that I found out I was pregnant. 

[00:21:20] Julia: Oh, so you didn’t know when you were being thrown around the tile bathroom that you were pregnant?

[00:21:27] Glenn: That I was pregnant, yeah. And the stuff in the bathtub and everything. 

[00:21:31] Julia: Wow. 

[00:21:31] Glenn: Yeah, it was crazy. It was crazy. The funny thing was, is that when, when we went to the. To the Oscars. I got nominated for an Oscar for it. Yes. And Michael and I were asked to, to give an award early on, and I, they didn’t allow me to go commercialize eight months pregnant.

[00:21:51] So they paid for us to go out in a private plane. Mm-hmm. Not a big one. We had to kind of hop across the country. Um, but when I came on stage with Michael to give out the award, I was enormously pregnant and everybody started laughing. Oh. ’cause they thought it was a And it’s because in the movie, yes.

[00:22:09] They thought it was, she says, I’m pregnant. And nobody believed her. And 

[00:22:12] Julia: that was so, that’s hilarious. That would’ve been a very funny joke if you hadn’t been pregnant. Yeah. That would’ve been genius. Yeah. That is so incredible. And it’s funny how, um, I guess the press got hold of that fact that you were pregnant and it was a big part of the, I don’t know, did you get shit for it?

[00:22:32] Or how did that, I mean, oh, they wanna know who the father was? Oh yeah. I, I went through some shit. Uh huh. Yeah. Yeah. It’s very interesting to watch Fatal Attraction now, and I have to tell you something I read somewhere or heard you say in an interview and prepping for our conversation that you wanted to tell that story from her point of view.

[00:22:56] Judy: Yeah. 

[00:22:56] Julia: And I gotta tell you something, you gotta tell that story from her point of view. That is such a good idea for a film. I mean, for real. Yeah. 

[00:23:05] Glenn: Because she really was a tragic figure. Tragic, tragic. She was a totally tragic figure, but because she was out of, basically out of control because she desperately needed help, she is now considered one of the great villains of the 20th.

[00:23:20] You know that era of movies? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was playing her and I did research with two different. Psychiatrist. Yeah. Took them the script. They read the script and I said, my first question was, is the bunny possible? 

[00:23:33] Julia: Mm-hmm. 

[00:23:33] Glenn: Boiling money, they said, oh yeah. 

[00:23:34] Julia: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

[00:23:35] Glenn: Second one was, why, why, why would, what would create that?

[00:23:42] And specifically when she’s, uh, spying on the family and they’re giving the, the, the father’s giving the little girl the bunny. 

[00:23:52] Julia: Yeah. 

[00:23:53] Glenn: Why did she run into the bushes and throw up? Now you could say that she was pregnant. Yes. And maybe sick from it, but she also could have been abused by her father and made to do things that would’ve made her gag and throw up.

[00:24:11] Mm-hmm. 

[00:24:12] And that was a woman I was playing. 

[00:24:13] Julia: Mm-hmm. 

[00:24:14] Glenn: Who had been abused by her father. 

[00:24:17] Julia: Well, that was evident. I mean, it was evident to me your take on her was so, um. Sympathetic and it was so artfully crafted. And I mean, it’s incredible how the movie ends on the tight shot of the family photo. And Michael Hugs it didn’t or 

[00:24:37] Glenn: didn’t originally end.

[00:24:38] I know, 

[00:24:39] Julia: I know. It didn’t. Uh, originally it ended with your character killing herself, listening to Madame Butterfly 

[00:24:46] Glenn: and he going to jail, 

[00:24:47] Julia: right? Mm-hmm. 

[00:24:50] Glenn: Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

[00:24:51] But it was so, it was so disturbing for American audiences. It’s so funny. I’ve played two characters that the audience wanted to get super punished.

[00:25:02] One of them was, was, uh, Alex Forest, not, not, you know, it’s not enough that she kills herself. No, no, no. Um, she has to be shot uhhuh, you know? Um. In order to restore order to the family this basic Greek tragedy. 

[00:25:20] Julia: And that’s why I am saying, I think this would be, to your point, an amazing story to revisit. Now let’s tell this story now again from her point of view.

[00:25:33] Anyway, I’m all for it. Let’s do it together. I’d I would do that with you in a heartbeat. For real. 

[00:25:38] Glenn: I think it would be fascinating. Fascinating. Yeah. I, yeah. 

[00:25:42] Julia: Who is the second character that was so hated in your view? 

[00:25:47] Glenn: Uh, mad Demato and Dangerously songs. Oh, yes. Ooh. In the book, which is next to Dracula, the most terrifying book I have ever read.

[00:26:01] And it’s just a series of letters in the book. Um, at the end, she has smallpox all over her face. And when that story was first published, which was, uh, in the years before the French Revolution, it was banned and they, he was able to publish it. Why was it banned? Do you know? I think it was against the aristocracy.

[00:26:29] Julia: Yeah. Okay. 

[00:26:30] Glenn: They didn’t kind of come off very well. Yeah, no, they don’t. Um, but so he added this thing where she, she not only was reviled by society, but nature had also. Ruined her, her beauty and her power by giving her a small box. Mm-hmm. You don’t see that in the film, but I knew that that was the character that was on the pages of the book.

[00:26:55] Mm-hmm. We actually shot a scene of her at the guillotine, having her head cut off. 

[00:27:00] Julia: Oh, no way. 

[00:27:02] Glenn: Yes. I still have the wig, like this little kind of thing, like all your hair cut off. And Steven Fierce was so scared of, I mean, it was pretty freaky to put your head down. Ooh. And a guillotine. And even they say, oh no, no, we have, you know, it’s not gonna go all the way down.

[00:27:24] It was really 

[00:27:25] Julia: freaky. So, um, your grandmothers were a big influence on in your life and, um. You talk about, you mimicked one of your, I guess your father’s mother scolded, a famous baseball commentator about not writing a thank you note. Oh my God, 

[00:27:46] Glenn: yes. What was that famous Yankee Phil Zuto. So can you, was it Phil Zuto?

[00:27:52] Tell that story what she did, what happened? Oh my God. My, my grandma would sit in her French, her little French stuffed chair mm-hmm. And watch baseball. She watched the Yankees and then she watched the Dallas Cowboy. 

[00:28:05] Mm-hmm. 

[00:28:06] Um, but she was a huge Yankee fan and, um, she did needle point and. She needle pointed Phil Rizzuto a pillow.

[00:28:18] I don’t know if it had, you know, p PR on it. Yeah. Or the Yankee logo. I’m not sure what. And somehow she got it to him. I don’t know how. And then she never got a thank you note, which for granny was, you know. Yeah. Uh, thank you note, sir. I critical, I still carry around, you know, things that I say, I have to write a thank you note and a year, year later, I still have the, the, the letter.

[00:28:44] I have to write a thank you note. Right. But she got him on the phone and asked him why he hadn’t written her a thank you note. It was hilarious. 

[00:28:53] Julia: Is it her kind of meltdown that you were channeling in, uh, I guess it’s reversal of Fortune, is that right? 

[00:29:02] Glenn: Yes. Yeah. Yes. Well, granny Close grew up, she was born in Galveston, Texas.

[00:29:08] Mm-hmm. And then after the flood they moved to Houston. 

[00:29:12] Mm-hmm. 

[00:29:13] And I heard her, and this was when she was older and I think I was maybe still in coll, no, I think I had started my career and I was visiting her one weekend and I heard her be really rude to her maid. Mm-hmm. And I was so angry. Mm-hmm. And I called her on it and she had that meltdown in front of me.

[00:29:34] It was horrifying. And so I called my father who was a doctor. I said, I think Granny’s losing it. I just, this thing happened and it was really upsetting. I’ve never seen anything like that. And he said, take her to see, he had a doctor friend in New York. So the next day or two days later, I got granny and she was, you know, a little delicate after that.

[00:29:59] I mean, you know, kind of maybe, yeah. Subdued a little bit and I got her in the car and we were driving down the Merit Parkway and I start look, kept looking over and she literally was, it was almost like science fiction. She was putting herself together again. So by the time we got to the doctor’s office it was, oh, hello, how are, it’s so lovely to see you again.

[00:30:25] And it was, he couldn’t say anything because he didn’t see anything and I was just there going, I 

[00:30:32] Julia: don’t believe it. Oh my God. When you say she was putting herself together, you were just seeing her sort of mentally get her game together? 

[00:30:40] Glenn: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Going down the West side highway thinking, oh, anyway, it was, it was extraordinary.

[00:30:50] It was extraordinary. And she, you know. Hello darling with her arm out. Hello darling. Hello darling. Yeah. 

[00:30:57] Julia: She charmed the pants off of him. Yeah. Oh, you know, it’s funny you say that ’cause I remember my husband’s grandmother who had dementia actually, and when she was taken to see her doctor, she would immediately start flirting with him and she would, you know, she was like 90 and he would say, so tell me Evelyn, what have you been doing?

[00:31:18] What have you been up to? And she’d say, well I’ve been playing tennis and I ride my bike and you know, it was complete bullshit. Do you draw? Do you, do you, when you’re, uh, working on character, I would assume that all of these female characters in your life and your family, uh, there’s, it’s a treasure trove of 

[00:31:40] Glenn: stuff.

[00:31:41] Yeah. In a way it is. I mean, granny clothes was that, that, you know, I pounding my thighs like she did. Mm. And because you have to do it over and over in a film. My thighs were black and blue by the time we finished. So that was granny. But me, my, my mother’s mother, Jenny Fields in my first film, yeah. When she gets older.

[00:32:00] Yes. That was me. My really, that was me. My, yeah. 

[00:32:03] Julia: And what was it about her that you were Mm, I don’t know. 

[00:32:09] Glenn: Channeling or using, I don’t know if I’ve done it, but Mima had the great trait of making everybody that she talked to feel like they’re the only person in the room. She could zero. Really? That is fascinating.

[00:32:26] And then what? So that element of her is what I wanted Jenny Fields to have. 

[00:32:31] Julia: And Jenny Fields for our listeners is of course from the world according to Garp. And you know, who’s like that in my life is my mother is like that almost to a fault in conversation. She can, you know, if we’re in a cab and she starts talking to the driver about his life and the next thing you know, we’re not getting out of the cab at our stop because she’s, 

[00:32:53] Glenn: that’s what, that’s what my grandmother would do.

[00:32:55] Julia: Yeah. It’s a lovely trait. It’s a marvelous trait. And also, by the way, it’s a very curious, um, way of living. I mean, in other words, you’re using curiosity in your life in a, in a very positive way because, you know, everybody has a story. Everybody has an interesting 

[00:33:11] Glenn: story. Just, you know, get off your phone and just ask people questions, find out about them and you’ll, you’ll have a wonderful time.

[00:33:19] I know. Yeah. It’s so, so interesting. 

[00:33:23] Julia: Did you learn about being a grandmother from your grandmother’s? Not 

[00:33:28] Glenn: really, no. Hmm. Let’s see, granny clothes, she would drag us to Episcopal church, which was always something we didn’t really enjoy that much. Uhhuh, and she could be scary. Yeah. I had, I had pigeon towed.

[00:33:44] I was very, I’m naturally pigeon towed, and so when I was little, I’d go over to Stanford, Connecticut to this shoe store and they’d make me these brown lace up shoes with, they, they, they’d make the heel, so they’re supposed to turn your foot out. It didn’t work, but it was granny saying, turn your feet out.

[00:34:02] Turn your feet out. You know that probably right? I mean, she was, make up your mind. Make up your mind. It’s all good stuff. But yeah, a little scary. A little scary. And my other grandmother, uh, she, she’s, they’re both fascinating women. My grandmother Moore, um, both my grandmothers married older divorcees who knew each other actually.

[00:34:24] Julia: Hmm. 

[00:34:25] Glenn: Um, so they were younger, very beautiful women. Ma married older men. My grandfather used to take these, you know, black and white little movies. And you could see me, my dancing, the Charleston, oh, in the snow On, on snowshoes. She was supposed to be, oh. She was just like beautiful and funny and wonderful.

[00:34:45] But she was, she, she was in her own world, Memay. Um, she was wonderful, but she was definitely in her own. I mean, it was me mind that I would, you know, we’d be over there and she’d be having playing Canasta, you know, with three other women and the clink of their, of their jangly. Mm-hmm. You know, bracelets.

[00:35:07] Mm-hmm. Drinking Dubnet. Yes. Smoking. 

[00:35:09] Julia: Yes. I know. My grandma, my grandmother was a big, uh, drinker and smoker and, you know, to this day that smell of scotch and cigarettes is makes me very calm. I, it’s very, um, cozy. I know

[00:35:28] we’ll be right back with more of my cozy conversation with Glen Close after this quick break.

AD BREAK 2 35:45

[00:35:46] You talk about your childhood sort of. Ending when you were seven, because I think it was around then that your parents joined the MRA, is that correct? Mm-hmm. Around then. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And the MRA stands for the Moral, 

[00:36:01] Glenn: moral re armament, moral re armament. Instead of military re armament after the war is supposed to be moral re-arm.

[00:36:09] And everybody in this, you are supposed to live by four standards. Absolute honesty, absolute purity, absolute unselfishness, and absolute love. And you’re supposed to have what they call guidance every morning, which is everybody had a little book and you’re supposed to have guidance from God. 

[00:36:30] Julia: Mm-hmm. 

[00:36:31] Glenn: So if you’re a kid, you know, I mean, I’m sure, I mean the Catholic Church does it, is all confessional and blah, blah, blah.

[00:36:41] But, um, you’re supposed to live by the four standards and the guidance of God. And, um, what does purity mean by the way? What the hell does purity mean? What does absolute purity? No, I don’t know. Well, for me it meant you just, you could, you wasn’t supposed to look at yourself in the mirror. You felt guilty if you wanted to be pretty.

[00:36:59] Julia: Oh my God. It was so 

[00:37:01] Glenn: fucked. 

[00:37:01] Julia: Yeah. And I know you were, you were living in Switzerland and I mean, I can only imagine what that must have been like for you. Can you talk about that shift at age seven? 

[00:37:19] Glenn: Yeah. Well, we didn’t move immediately to Switzerland. What happened is that they met this group. 

[00:37:25] Mm-hmm. 

[00:37:26] And they, I think they were fodder for a group like this because they were in a very unhappy place in their marriage.

[00:37:33] Mm-hmm. 

[00:37:33] Um, and they gotten married when they were 18. And, you know, dad went to the war and came back. He was in medical school. So, and I, I do think that people don’t get sucked up by these. Cults if they are whole people in healthy relationships. I, I just, 

[00:37:49] Julia: yeah, 

[00:37:49] Glenn: I, I don’t believe that would happen, but my parents were, uh, fragile that way.

[00:37:55] Mm-hmm. But anyway, so the first thing they did was sell the little cottage and they actually moved into, that’s when we moved into Hermitage Farm, which was just, you know, maybe four miles away. It was my other grand, uh, parents’ house. Um, and then they eventually sold that house and gave all the money to Morry Armament and we went living, it used to be a, a center in Mount Kisco.

[00:38:25] And that center had been a farm owned by one of, um, Vanderbilt’s granddaughters. I think it was a gorgeous piece of property. And there was a big house where Uncle Frank, Frank Bookman, who started. Would stay if he was there. All kept, you know, by spic and span by spinsters. 

[00:38:48] Mm-hmm. It 

[00:38:49] was very misogynistic.

[00:38:51] Mm-hmm. 

[00:38:52] This whole thing. But we were moved into this cottage, which was a good sized house, and various people would come in and take care of us if our parents were away on missions. So it was from there that we went to Switzerland. I see. In 1960 we went to Switzerland. I see. And Switzerland. There’s a huge, uh, it had been a very fancy hotel in the twenties going into the war called mountain houses Above Montre and the Lake of Geneva.

[00:39:25] And they made that their world headquarters or one of their headquarters. Mm-hmm. So that, those were the, probably the, the most destructive years. 

[00:39:35] Julia: And but wait a minute, how old were you? 

[00:39:37] Glenn: I was in seventh grade. I see. When we went over there. Got it. So you were probably 

[00:39:44] Julia: 13. 

[00:39:44] Glenn: Yeah, because when I came back, I went into 10th grade.

[00:39:47] I see. So we were there for two years. Okay. But, um, so mountain house was vast. Big kitchens, little dining rooms. There was always Frank’s dining room. Now, Frank’s dining room had all the best China, the best crystal, the best flatware, the best linens. Everything was just, and I remember this, I, it, you know, and I was What’s, how old are you when you’re seventh?

[00:40:16] Eighth grade? I think you’re like 13 two to, yeah. To be asked to set the table in Frank’s dining room, you know, to fold the napkins. It was like, um, oh God. I think the worst was for me, um, when we were still living in Greenwich on John Street and my parents were leaving on a mission and I was really upset and I had a, a little bedroom on the third floor of the, of the house and I went running up crying.

[00:40:45] I didn’t wanna say goodbye to them. 

[00:40:47] Oh. 

[00:40:47] And then I looked out the window and I saw that the car was there and um, or the taxi or whatever it was, and that they were leaving. And I ran to this little cupboard where I had like, art material, and I got out a piece of paper and I wrote on this piece of paper, Jesus says, you should go.

[00:41:10] And I wrapped it around pencil and threw it out the window. And I saw my father pick it up and read it and kind of look in. And how warped is that now? Just think about that for a minute. I felt guilty. For letting my parents basically abandon us, which they did over and over and over again. 

[00:41:32] Julia: I, I mean, 

[00:41:32] Glenn: and yet it was Jesus telling me, yes, it’s okay to leave me.

[00:41:37] I’m seven, but go ahead and go change the world and we’ll be, you know, in the care of some girl is probably being punished, you know, by having to go take care of someone’s kids. Oh, poor dw. And it seems tiny, you know, we weren’t beaten. We always had clothes. We always had food. So I’ve, in a way, it’s been very hard to come to terms with it because of that, because I wasn’t sexually or physically abused.

[00:42:04] Yeah. But I had, it was terrible, emotional and psychological abuse. 

[00:42:08] Julia: Terrible. 

[00:42:09] Glenn: Terrible. And it’s still, it’s still with me. I can see it. It’s 

[00:42:13] Julia: absolutely still with, and it’s, and I can feel it. It’s, it’s a, it’s a horror. 

[00:42:19] Glenn: It’s a horror. It’s terrible. The funny thing is, it’s not funny, but my dad was sent away to school, uh, to, into a boarding school in England.

[00:42:29] His dad was, uh, directed the, the American hospital in Paris. So they basically, they were in Paris, but he was sent when he was seven years old. Yeah. That was the norm. And so that, and my dad, apparently he was a twin. He had a twin brother. And it was my dad who would clinging to the car, have to be pulled off.

[00:42:49] Oh. You know. Oh. 

[00:42:51] And I think he was, he had been abused and abandoned. I mean, why I, can you not feel abandoned when that happens? And you know, never to be visited. So 

[00:43:03] Julia: we’re talking about generational trauma that carries that that is, yeah. So he, they did that to their children. Right. And so. Can we talk about forgiveness, because I know it’s something you’ve worked on, I’m sure.

[00:43:18] Um, how to get there. How do you get there? Do you get there? 

[00:43:26] Glenn: Well, I had this a little bit of a revelation when I had my new, when Annie was little. Yes, I remember exactly when it was. Um, it came back from dangers liaisons. My parents lived in Wyoming and they had built a house down from their little house that where my first, my grandmother Moore lived and died.

[00:43:51] And then my grandmother close who was not someone who ever thought she’d end her days in Big Pine, Wyoming, but she was there and she, you know, she had been somebody to contend with. Mm-hmm. Um, but my dad was taking care of her. And I went down to visit her and she was almost in the fetal position. Oh. You know, I don’t know how long after that visit she died, but she was there, you know, breathing in her bed asleep.

[00:44:20] And I stood over her with my child. And I had this thought that the burden of forgiveness is always with the child. It’s whether the child will be able to forgive. 

[00:44:33] Julia: Mm. Oh my God, that makes me cry. 

[00:44:38] Glenn: Because the person who’s been wronged is the one who needs to forgive. Yeah. And that parents will always make mistakes.

[00:44:46] Right. Some 

[00:44:47] bigger than others. 

[00:44:48] Mm-hmm. 

[00:44:49] But I think that that is where forgiveness, that’s the burden of forgiveness. And you either, I, I, I asked my mom to come with me to, uh, some, you know, when I was seeing a shrink ’cause I wanted to ask her some questions. 

[00:45:07] Julia: Mm-hmm. 

[00:45:07] Glenn: With a shrink there who could kind of, you know, 

[00:45:10] Julia: help facilitate it, 

[00:45:11] Glenn: moderate it.

[00:45:11] Mm-hmm. And she did. And, um, I un, I really, I, I, I learned about some things. Um, you know, what it was like when dad came back from the war and blah, blah, blah. And I started to really understand them. And I, I forgave them. I had, I had another incident with my dad. He was an extraordinary man, but he had no emotional vocabulary as a father.

[00:45:44] Mm. And I, I spent three days writing this letter, finally telling him what I thought of him as a father. And it was so strong. Oh. That I read it to my siblings and to my mother before I send it. To dad because I wanted them to know, and the thing that it did for me Yeah. Was that I was immune to his power over me.

[00:46:19] Mm-hmm. In that way. 

[00:46:19] Mm-hmm. 

[00:46:20] I had made myself immune. 

[00:46:21] Mm-hmm. 

[00:46:23] Um, he went to see a shrink that he knew for about three sessions. 

[00:46:29] Julia: Mm-hmm. And then he got cured and then stopped cured in quote, and he got cured.

[00:46:37] Listen, you, you joined this group up with people. It was an offshoot of MRA. Okay. So it was like a Christian, uh, singing group? A little bit, right? A little very popular, by the way. ’cause I remember it from when I was little. I don’t know how I saw it, but I did. And the, uh, the up with people song, IV vaguely remember.

[00:47:02] Oh, and I have to tell you something. So my husband Brad, grew up in Santa Barbara, California. His dad was an Episcopal minister here in California. And the up with people, folks used to come and they would stay at the rectory at, while they performed at the Granada Theater. Were you touring with them? Did you ever perform at the Granada Theater?

[00:47:25] What year was 

[00:47:26] Glenn: that? Do you know? I, oh, I’m gonna say it was in, because I toured with them for 1965 to 1970. For five years. 

[00:47:35] Julia: Yeah. It would’ve been, it would’ve been during that time. You don’t have any memory. Probably. Probably. I mean, it’s possible. I’m telling you right now, Glen, it is possible that you stayed at Brad’s childhood home with up with people.

[00:47:51] Well, we always stayed with families. Yeah. I guarantee, I guarantee it. How bizarre would that be? Yeah, yeah. 

[00:48:00] Glenn: Yeah. 

[00:48:01] Julia: Anyway. Oh God. God. I know. 

[00:48:04] Glenn: So bizarre. Girls bus. Boys bus. You know, you weren’t supposed to do anything. And of course, because I hadn’t ever done anything kiss, Lord knows I hadn’t had sex. Um, I’m sure Kiss were doing it just left, right and center.

[00:48:20] Julia: But you No. But you were sticking to the, uh, absolute. I didn’t 

[00:48:24] Glenn: know anything else. 

[00:48:25] Julia: Uhhuh, right? Yeah. All of this. Baggage. Did it make it scary then to become a mom? Or did you get more clarity when you became a mom, or all of the above? I suppose. I don’t think I dragged a lot of it into, oh, 

[00:48:42] Glenn: my experience of being a mother.

[00:48:44] I had other things to contend with. 

[00:48:47] Julia: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

[00:48:49] Glenn: Mm-hmm. I’m very blessed to have, I think, an extraordinary human being for the daughter. 

[00:48:55] Julia: Oh, how wonderful. 

[00:48:57] Glenn: She is so rooted. I’m just like, Ugh. Boy, you don’t, I always will be 

[00:49:05] Julia: you. You don’t seem blah, you don’t seem like that to me. You don’t. I mean, you’ve been through a lot and you haven’t, it seems to me anyway, you have an understanding of where you’ve been.

[00:49:16] You’re probably still peeling back 

[00:49:18] Glenn: layers on it more and more. Oh yeah. I think, I think more and more, more and more. But just, you know, I’ve been married three times. Yeah. And the, the, I shouldn’t have married any of them, but I had an empty toolbox. Um, and so I’ve had to try to fill that toolbox as far as human relations and certainly relationships in a marriage with nothing really as a model.

[00:49:51] So I’ve made a lot of mistakes. 

[00:49:53] Mm-hmm. 

[00:49:54] And I think that, that in my, um, generation, in my family, we have a lot of divorces, but our kids. I, I think, knock on wood, but it looks like they have found literally life partners. 

[00:50:07] Mm-hmm. 

[00:50:08] And I think that’s one of the things that may be what we went through, they’re saying, you know, they’ve seen it and they know that they can do something else.

[00:50:18] Mm-hmm. 

[00:50:19] Mm-hmm. You know, so that makes me, that makes me happy as it Well, 

[00:50:22] Julia: it 

[00:50:22] Glenn: should as well. It should. Yeah. But I think it’s, I think it’s sad that I was so unknowing. I mean, so unknowing, so, you know, um, 

[00:50:32] Julia: well, yeah. It always 

[00:50:34] Glenn: chose the wrong. 

[00:50:35] Julia: Yeah. That is sad. But this is not a sad story. You’re telling this story, you know, it’s triumphant.

[00:50:42] Glenn: No, and I, I feel so alive, but I do think that one of the great gifts, possible gifts in life is to have a life partner. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It’s tricky. Of course, but, you know, 

[00:50:54] Julia: yeah. It can be tricky for sure. But, um, let, let’s talk a little bit more. About your career. It’s just so remarkable. I can’t get over how long it’s been, and it’s so varied.

[00:51:06] And I know that you’ve said that earlier in your career you were driven by a real need to prove yourself. Of course. I totally understand that drive. But at this point, do you still feel that way? 

[00:51:17] Glenn: No, I don’t feel I need to prove myself. If anything, I still want to, I think, satisfy my creative urge. Mm-hmm.

[00:51:28] I mean, this movie that I just finished, 

[00:51:31] Julia: oh, right. It’s a Hunger Games prequel, right? Yeah. Yes. 

[00:51:35] Glenn: I play a character called Silla Sickle, and we had five distinct looks. 

[00:51:41] Mm. 

[00:51:41] And the collaboration that went into what those looks were gonna be was just so much fun. Mm. You know, it was just so much fun. And. I like nothing I’ve ever done before because of the nature of, of who this character is and what she looks like.

[00:52:00] Well, 

[00:52:00] Julia: tell me about that. 

[00:52:01] Glenn: So I started thinking about that less this past summer, and there’s certain characters that I’ve played that I’ve wanted to change my face in very subtle ways because I get distracted by it. I’ve lived in this face for a long time. Yeah. 

[00:52:15] Julia: Yeah. 

[00:52:16] Glenn: And. It helps me find a character if I could just make little subtle changes.

[00:52:22] Albert Nobbs is a, is uh, is one. Um, and Maw Maw in in, um, hillbilly Elegy is one. 

[00:52:30] Julia: And also Summer book. 

[00:52:32] Glenn: Yep. Summer book. The summer book. Absolutely. Yeah, so Della, because she’s so outrageous and written as outrageous. So I, I knew that I wanted a certain shape of my mouth. I love teeth. Started working with Matthew Mungle, who’s retired, but he’s kind of a buddy, you know, one of the great FX artists.

[00:52:51] Yeah. And so it got an idea about it. I start by put my stuffing, um, uh, Kleenex or rolling it up and putting it on under my lip and getting certain shapes. 

[00:53:00] Julia: But how did, how do, how did you do the stretching sideways? Was that, is that a, a post-production situation or is it 

[00:53:07] Glenn: No, no, no, no. How it was my skin. In fact, the more we stretched, the wider my mouth got, so I thought I should have had a facelift in my contract.

[00:53:16] Wow. Um, 

[00:53:17] Julia: wow. 

[00:53:18] Glenn: No, it was extraordinary what it did to my face. And then, yeah, and then I wanted like a, a little piggy nose. And that’s a technique that I’ve learned that I actually did for the first time with Matthew. Um, and now, but now it’s much, it’s much easier. That’s, that’s a question of tape. And then you put a prosthetic over it and then, uh, you know, stretching, stretching your eyes up and stretching this up.

[00:53:46] Julia: Yeah. You’re stretching the, the skin over your cheeks. Yeah. Up and sort of pulling your lip up. God, 

[00:53:54] Glenn: I just, I did not look like myself. It was so fabulous. I’ll show you a picture ’cause they can’t see it. 

[00:53:59] Julia: Yeah. 

[00:54:00] Glenn: I’ll sneak you a picture. Yeah. 

[00:54:01] Julia: Sneak me a picture. I wanna see 

[00:54:03] Glenn: I’ll s 

[00:54:04] Julia: Oh, no way. 

[00:54:06] Glenn: Yeah, that’s me. 

[00:54:07] Julia: No way.

[00:54:08] Okay. So I’m looking at this picture of Glen, which I can’t share with people, but it is, you are transformed. 

[00:54:18] Glenn: Yeah. Is, and I’ll show you another one. No. Oh 

[00:54:22] Julia: my God. No. It’s terrifying. You look terrifying. It’s so scary. We are in for a treat. You guys, you got the nose is incredible. Oh, I’m excited. Excited. Yeah.

[00:54:37] It’s so 

[00:54:37] much fun. You see, it’s just, it’s just so much fun in the This is all on Glen is sharing pictures on her phone. Listeners. I we’re And you can’t see it. You have to wait. You have to wait. But the the wait is, is gonna be worth it. It, it kind of is a a I’m looking at a drag show slightly here too. I mean, it’s wild.

[00:54:59] Glenn: Well, I think a lot of my career is about populating gay Halloween parades. Yes, 

[00:55:06] Julia: you are unrecognizable. You’re unrecognizable. Yeah. Okay. One more break and then we’re back with the incredible Glen close.

 

AD BREAK 3 55:29

[00:55:30] I wanna touch, of course, on your work with mental health and in 2015, you contributed to the book that your sister wrote about her struggle with mental health, mental illness in a book called Resilience. Um, and how, I wonder, I know that you cared for your sister at, at a, at a particular time of her suffering.

[00:55:57] Um, and how did that experience sort of. Oh God, shape the way you live now today compared to before. I know that’s a heavy question and I apologize for throwing it your way, but I think it’s sort of an important one to, to talk about, if you don’t mind. 

[00:56:20] Glenn: I think it’s incredibly important to talk about. Um, so Jesse came up to me on a summer day.

[00:56:29] She was just leaving my parents’ house in Wyoming and she said, I need your help. I can’t stop thinking about killing myself. 

[00:56:37] Julia: Oh. 

[00:56:38] Glenn: And that’s the first It was like, 

[00:56:43] Julia: what? This was complete news to you? Complete 

[00:56:48] Glenn: news to me. 

[00:56:50] Julia: Did you know she was struggling at all? This is your sister Jessie? No. 

[00:56:53] Glenn: Okay. 

[00:56:54] Julia: Mm-hmm. 

[00:56:54] Glenn: My, my younger sister Jessie.

[00:56:56] Mm-hmm. And she was always considered the wild one. Mm. Um, she really fell through the cracks of our family. 

[00:57:02] Mm-hmm. 

[00:57:03] Um, and she writes about it in the most extraordinary way. So honest in that book. And she writes about her journey with bipolar disorder. 

[00:57:18] Julia: Hmm. 

[00:57:19] Glenn: She wasn’t diagnosed until she was 51. 

[00:57:22] Julia: Come on. To have to live with that.

[00:57:24] Glenn: My father was a doctor, you know, and we came from a culture Greenwich, Connecticut, where nobody, if you went to a shrink, you certainly didn’t talk about it. I see. And most people didn’t go to a shrink. Um, and little did we know that my grandmother’s brother, uh, he had, he lived with schizophrenia and was.

[00:57:47] Um, violent and put in the, you know, mental hospital numerous times. Um, another half brother of my mother’s, uh, died by suicide, so depression all through the family. Um, so when Jesse came up to me, it was such an act of courage or probably desperation. Mm. Probably a little bit of both, God, but probably more desperation.

[00:58:12] Um, yeah. Um, and we were able to help her, my mom and I, and she went to, um, McLean Hospital. Mm-hmm. Outside of Boston. Mm-hmm. Her son had been diagnosed there. He had had a psychotic break and nobody, I mean, what I mean. What’s that? You know, what’s go And she didn’t know what was happening. Nobody. And even though, and I think back, I knew he was there, he stayed there for two years and it saved his life, but he didn’t really know what it was.

[00:58:43] Yeah. I went to visit him and it was kind of, you know, uncomfortable, um, oh God. And ’cause we live in a society that wants to put everything under the rug, behind the curtain, don’t talk about it. Mm-hmm. The neighbors might hear. 

[00:58:59] Mm-hmm. 

[00:59:00] Um, so when Jesse and, and both of them came out, um, they, they told me that the stigma around mental illness is just as bad as the illnesses themselves.

[00:59:14] So while people are trying to recover, trying to understand, you know, how to deal with this chronic illness, they also have to deal with the fear of stigma. Um, and. My, for example, my nephew, he was kind of the glorious leader of the pack. He had a psychotic break. Nobody came back, none of his friends came back, which is astounding to me because of fear, because of lack of understanding, you know?

[00:59:50] Yeah. Of, of what pe, what people are actually dealing with. Anyway, so we decided to try to do something about it, and they started ta. They went on national television 2010, talking about the illnesses that they were living with. Hmm. I mean, it was so brave. So brave. Oh, I know. You just have to start talking about it because it’s, we’re human beings.

[01:00:12] I know. And it’s part of being human. 

[01:00:14] Julia: I know. And talk about the work you do with your organization. 

[01:00:20] Glenn: So bring change to mind. Um, went into the schools and have developed now these clubs where kids go and it’s peer-to-peer, you know, of course they have an advisor, but it’s peer-to-peer kids talking about what they’re dealing with.

[01:00:36] The kids are amazing. They just blew me away. But the, the, the, I mean the simple thing is just start talking about it. Um, if you see somebody acting, you know, not like themselves in a consistent way, go up and say if they’re okay, if they say they are and you don’t believe it, ask them again. And that’s what these kids learn are, are these ways to help help yourself and to help somebody next to you.

[01:01:03] Julia: So it’s a gift that you’ve been able to take this with your family, this suffering, which kind of, it sounds like, to a certain extent, prevalent and more fit. And use it in, in ways that are so positive. So good on you and good on Jesse. And good on her son Kalen. Yes. Yeah. Um, okay. I’ve taken up so much of your time, but this has been delightful.

[01:01:34] All caps delightful. Um, I, we always end on a couple of like, really quick questions. Uhhuh, um, let’s see. Is there something you’d go back and tell yourself at 21? 

[01:01:48] Glenn: Oh my God, I was such a dork. You’d say you are such a dork. Um, right now, I’d say such a dork. Pull yourself together. Um, oh God. 21. I was still with up with people.

[01:02:03] I went to college when I was 22. I was a freshman when I was 22. Oh. So in a way, I, I would say what I said to myself back then is get out of it. 

[01:02:17] Julia: Get an education. Right. That’s hilarious. Um, is there something that you would go back and say yes to? Hmm. Oh.

[01:02:33] Glenn: After we did the natural, Robert Redford invited me to a very romantic restaurant where we had dinner together and I was too clueless and

[01:02:53] unknowing and unsure to even consider. Oh, that I might’ve dated him. 

[01:03:03] Oh 

[01:03:04] my God. Yeah. But he, he found Billy, but yeah, and I, it’s just because I, I didn’t, I You didn’t know. 

[01:03:20] Julia: I didn’t know. Didn’t get it. I’m just gonna let that sit there. That’s incredible. But lucky you, you got to work with him. You lucky duck.

[01:03:31] Yeah, but how dorky was that? 

[01:03:35] Glenn: Oh my God. 

[01:03:36] Julia: And I’m gonna la lastly ask you this, is there something that you wanna tell me about aging that I should know? Try to fall in love 

[01:03:47] Glenn: with your skin. Oh, I took a picture of my, of the skin on my arm. Which is kind of shocking because I love trees and I love the bark on trees, and I wanted to find a tree bark that looked like the skin of my arm and it would make me feel like I belong.

[01:04:05] Julia: Oh, clan. 

[01:04:09] Oh. Because I think that’s what’s happening. Oh, oh my God. I love that. That, that 

[01:04:17] makes me cry. 

[01:04:19] I love it. Oh, thank you. 

[01:04:23] Glenn: Thank you my dear. Lovely 

[01:04:25] Julia: to 

[01:04:25] Glenn: talk to you. 

[01:04:26] Julia: Lovely to talk to you. It’s been heaven. Um, really appreciate it. Be well in Berlin. Take good care of yourself. 

[01:04:34] Glenn: I will. You too.

[01:04:48] Julia: Oh, what a fantastic woman. God, I love her. Okay, let’s call my mom. I can’t wait to hear what she has to say about our conversation. Let’s get her on the Zoom.

[01:05:05] Hi mommy. Hi, love. Look at you all pretty with your scarf and your lipstick. 

[01:05:11] Judy: Oh, yes. Yeah. I, I put the scarf on this morning because one scarf can keep me warm all day. Right. Actually, it’s totally true. Yeah. It’s just amazing. And, and I put it on lipstick just for the, just for you all. 

[01:05:23] Julia: Oh, that’s so nice. Too bad we’re not videotaping.

[01:05:28] Judy: Well, that’s okay. Yeah. I wanna impress you. I, I worked at that, 

[01:05:35] Julia: so mother, I talked to Glenn Close today, if you can even believe what I’m telling 

[01:05:41] Judy: you. That is incredible. I mean, Glenn Close is just, I mean, is she real? I mean, she’s, she’s real, 

[01:05:48] Julia: she’s so real. 

[01:05:49] Judy: Different faces that you know her from, and she’s so intense in all of the, the phases, right.

[01:05:55] Everything is, is just like, oh, that’s got to be, she’s, she’s got to be that. 

[01:06:00] Julia: I mean, it’s extraordinary how she’s played such a wide swath of characters. But this is the thing about Clin. She’s saying she, there are a lot of women in her family that she, so, I’m not gonna say mimics, but she draws from to play a whole host of her characters.

[01:06:19] And she had a grandmother on her dad’s side who was a real character with a massive temper. And Glenn tapped into playing her grandma a lot, specifically in reversal of Fortune. She has a scene in which she’s going absolutely bananas, having a tantrum. And she said she was just doing her grandmother. 

[01:06:42] Judy: Oh, that’s so 

[01:06:42] Julia: interesting.

[01:06:43] Yeah. Isn’t that funny. So her, her grandparents had a big part in her life. Was your grandmother by the way? Um, Bessie, did she have a temper? I don’t remember you 

[01:06:55] Judy: ever saying she did. No, I don’t. I don’t, the, the only time I saw her get angry was really at the end of her life when she was in a nursing home.

[01:07:03] Glenn: Mm-hmm. 

[01:07:04] Judy: It was, it was, uh, I was awful. One of those old fashioned nursing homes that Oh no. So terrible. And it was in, in Ohio and, but anyway, they, they couldn’t, she, they had no other place to put her. And so she, she said that people were coming in and stealing things from her room. ’cause they, they had to leave their room open at night to a certain extent or something.

[01:07:24] And so my mother and Myrna said, uh, oh, no, they’re not doing that. Mother, they’re not doing that. And she looked at them and she said, you listen to me girly girls. I know what I’m saying. And I’ve been robbed. And she, I, she was just completely. I, I never ever saw her in her life be like that, but at that time she really let it rip.

[01:07:47] Wow. And so that was it. So don’t, don’t tell her what, what was happening in her life. So did your mom, my grandma Dei, did she have a bad temper? Uh, I wouldn’t exactly call it a temper, but when she, she would, she could get mad, just mad. And when she was mad, she could say mean things. Mm. I think my mother grew up one of five girls, and, uh, Myrna, her older sister was sort of their babysitter.

[01:08:12] Right. And that’s a bad thing to have happen because No, nobody likes the, the, the oldest one that’s taken care of and it, it’s, it’s never a good, a good, uh, scheme. And oh, by God to Myrna, her sister, she was terrible. She, they just squabble all the time and so different, and Myrna was very, uh, sort of scientific and spiritual, and my mother just, just made fun of her all the time.

[01:08:37] Is that she did. Oh yeah. Made it terrible fun of her, including she wore those cotton stockings, you know, the soda, orange, cotton stocking. Yeah. I remember those Myrna wearing, those mother used to make fun of them. She’d say, Myrna, the stockings are so terrible. Why do you wear them? And yeah. And she hurt Myer’s feelings and Myrna always took it Right.

[01:08:57] But, uh, there was no, no fury allowed in my house. 

[01:09:01] Julia: Right. 

[01:09:01] Judy: But, um, Glenn Close, what’s her favorite part? Does she, does she have a favorite thing that she did or does she, 

[01:09:08] Julia: well, she’s played, uh. She loved being in Sunset Boulevard, which, um, you know, she did that on stage. But she’s a workhorse. She is just going from one project to the next and she’s, uh, making this movie that’s coming out and she plays a, a major character in it.

[01:09:27] And she was showing pictures on her phone to me over the zoom of her character, which I’m sure for the audience was very frustrating because I, I was going, oh my God. Oh my God. ’cause she has transformed her face. That’s the thing I wanted to tell you. That’s so incredible about something she, when she’s thinking about a character, she thinks, you know, in my mind when I’m thinking about a character, I think about it sort of emotionally.

[01:09:54] Um, I don’t know if I’ve ever told you this, but when I was playing Selena Meyer, whenever Selena would get sort of. Flummoxed or, or thrown off. And she would kind of stammer she go, uh, well, no. It just, it was like that. I’m doing You did you know that 

[01:10:17] Judy: Smooth talking me, smooth talking me. Are you kidding me?

[01:10:21] No, but that, I, 

[01:10:26] Julia: I think I’m the coolest thing in the block. You are, mommy. Unless you get flustered. 

[01:10:31] Judy: Unless I get flustered more often than not. And so now, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 

[01:10:36] Julia: Exactly. But you’re not a bitch like Selena Mars a horrible person that I can tell you I did not channel you for that one. I, I 

[01:10:43] Judy: sort of 

[01:10:43] Julia: understood 

[01:10:44] Judy: her.

[01:10:45] Julia: Yeah. Well maybe she was a little familiar. Oh shit. Well, anyway. Okay, mom. Well thank you so much for, um, being available to chat about the wonderful Glenn Close. 

[01:10:59] Judy: Oh, well, I loved our chat. I love all of our chats and this one was particularly chatty. Yes, it was. Okay. I love you so much. I love you so much, honey.

[01:11:08] And thank you for calling and be in touch. Okay, love you, bye. So long.

[01:11:18] Julia: Hey,

[01:11:22] there’s more wiser than me with lemon A premium. You can now listen to every episode ad free plus subscribers. Also get access to exclusive bonus interview excerpts from each guest. Just tap that subscribe button. On Apple Podcasts, head to lemon. premium.com To subscribe on any other app or listen, add free on Amazon Music with your Prime membership.

[01:11:46] That’s lemon premium.com. Make sure you’re following wiser than me on social media. We’re on Instagram and TikTok at Wiser Than Me, and we’re on Facebook at Wiser Than Me Podcast. We’re also on Substack at Wiser than me. Dot substack.com. Wiser Than Me is a production of Lemon Media created and hosted by me, Julia Louis Dreyfus.

[01:12:07] The show is produced by Chrissy Pease and Oja Lopez. Brad Hall is a consulting producer Rachel Neil is consulting senior editor and our SVP of Weekly Content and Production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittles Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer, and me. This episode was mixed by Johnny Vince Evans and Ivan Cor with engineering help from James Barber.

[01:12:34] And our music was written by Henry Hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Will Schlagel and of course my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow wiser than me wherever you get your podcasts and if there’s an old lady in your life, listen up.