5: Jumping Into the Deep End
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This week, both Chloe and Jeff confront one of the trickiest parts of transitioning: how to feel most comfortable in their own skin, and how to change their bodies — if at all. Chloe is on the eve of facial feminization surgery, but a family health crisis at home in New York has her questioning whether she can stay in LA long term — and whether she will have to face her recovery alone. Jeff heads to a pool party with Sy and some friends, where the discomfort he faces being in a swimsuit prompts him to revisit the idea of top surgery.
Sy, Emma, Mariana, Chloe, Robert, Jeffrey, Fernando, McKenzie, Radhika
How did we make a boy who runs around shirtless with a backwards Red Hat? Was like fucking Woodstock 99′.
Yeah, no, Egon is a jock. How two theater nerds make a jock. Anyway, so we’re gonna go take a walk. I’ll be back before bedtime and stuff. After getting pretty bad news about my cholesterol level, I just had to make a pretty big change in my health and my lifestyle. Robert has been cooking mostly plant-based dinners. And while he’s doing that, I take a little time for myself and get more exercise lately in the form of going on walks and hikes with Jeff. Hey, how’s it going?
I’m so good. How are you?
I mean, okay. I don’t want to go like straight out not feeling it didn’t have the best day.
Yeah, I think not to the, not having the best day. I’m sorry that that happened. I’m very happy that it ends our hike. But we can go for a walk.
Let’s go for a walk.
Weird, weird time. Over the weekend, like I took Egon to this waterpark, and we’re really excited. We’re gonna have a fun time. Because the front of the line. And there’s this dude who’s like giving everyone the third degree about having brought a bathing suit because it is a waterpark kind of situation. And, you know, I didn’t really feel shy about bathing suit stuff or, you know, swimming around other people didn’t really think about it. I could tell that like he didn’t see me as the right gender. And he didn’t believe like he was like, oh, this is a mom, a woman wearing shorts and a t-shirt. She doesn’t have a bathing suit.
You could tell though, from a mile away that they wear swim trunks?
If I had been an extremely cis looking man. No one would have.. Like because I had top surgery in the fall. weather was cold. I didn’t really get to like go out to the beach or the pool or you know, present as myself without having to wear a shirt or whatever, in any of those places. So this summer has been the first chance I’ve ever had to present as my real self in a way that makes me happy. I’d be at the pool at the beach, places like that. But yeah, so I’m like, oh yeah, we’re wearing our suits, my kid, you know, he’s got his little rash guard, his little trunks on he looks super adorable because I made them with my body. And yeah, the dudes just like staring me up and down like, not he didn’t tell me he didn’t turn me away or tell me like, you don’t belong here that’s on a bathing suit. But it’s just like, in that extra 30 seconds of this person staring at my body trying to decide what I am trying to decide if I’m okay. Like it suck.
Yeah, I don’t know. It wouldn’t be so nice, though to like, have a place that was just like, we could go swimming and didn’t have to think about it at all
Right. You know, if I had a pool like, that’d be. Yeah, yeah. It would be really I think like bottom line. Like, politics aside, it would just be fun to have a pool day. I think part of me is like, we shouldn’t have to be separate from other people. We should be able to feel safe anywhere we go.
Pools can be hellish for trans people. And public pools are terrifying. I do swim a ton. I don’t keep it from letting me swim. I haven’t had top surgery, but I wear a shirt and a binder. It just makes me feel the way I’m supposed to feel. So for being in a private pool would be fantastic. Yeah. And they have that, they have like Airbnb for pools and stuff.
I started envisioning like a massive trans swim day where like, close down a pool and like 1000s of trans people came and swam. I don’t know if we can manage that. But yeah, we should definitely be able to get a few friends together and find a pool and just have a fun time. I love this tiny little loving dog.
Radhika! Thank you, it’s so good to see you. I love dogs by the way. My friend Radhika from Rochester lives here in Los Angeles. And I’m really excited to see her.
This is my husband, Ben.
Nice to meet you. I’ve actually heard a lot of great things about you.
Radhika and her family live on the other side of town. So obviously, I’ve been dragging my feet a little bit and getting over there. But we’re meeting up today for coffee and a bite to eat and just to chat for a while.
How are you finding LA? Are you kind of liking it so far? Is it getting used to it time?
I’m still getting used to LA, it’s like, there’s nothing here that I’m used to like, the weather is different, like everything is that the people are different everything.
How are the people different? I found that, too.
It depends on where I go. I get looked at a lot less. But some places I go I get looked at a lot more. So it but it’s very different. People seem to be more laid back. You know, I miss home. I miss my mom, I miss my nephews, my brother, his wife, like a lot of my friends and like, you know, I don’t know a ton of people here. Yeah. So it’s nice to be able to hang out with somebody from Rochester.
I know. I feel the same way. There’s just like a different connection. Yeah. And
like there’s a little bit more of a shared experience and like, some of the joys and traumas of living there are different.
I miss upstate a lot for a lot of reasons. But yeah, I don’t know if I could go back there. It’s, find kind of like the same. Some of the same issues as you when I go back. There’s just a lot of really just more narrow perspectives of how people should be and how they should live their lives and I find it especially like in the parenting. You know, like, my son is very different from a lot of other 10-year old’s, you know, in his interest and in his passions and just the way he lives his life and it’s something that’s accepted here. You know, it’s like, oh, you want to read in your room? That’s fine. There’s just a different it’s like he does not interested in sports. Yeah. And every time we go out there, it’s like, oh, what sports do you play? What teams are you on, buddy? That’s just not his thing. Hey, champ, yeah, there’s a lot champing around and it’s just harder. So there’s just so much. And then, you know, like, as a mixed family, some people are less comfortable with us, like as neighbors and as friends and but the larger community, I think, is more accepting and open here of people just walking their own path. Yeah, you know.
If I’m being honest, my tenure here in Los Angeles has always felt a bit uncertain. I’ve spent a lot of my life being a tumbleweed and blowing around from place to place, but now I’m feeling like a maybe I could put some roots down here. Maybe I could stay a while. I don’t really know yet. Speaking of, want to come hang out with me after surgery then?
Oh, yeah. So when’s the surgery?
Less than two weeks.
This is exciting. So what’s happening?
So they are going to, I’m calling it operation face off to the forehead thing. One of the big pieces of my transition that I’ve been really looking forward to wanting and needing is FFS which is facial feminization surgery. And that’s basically a gender affirming surgery that will alter my facial structure a little bit just to make it look more feminine and helped me feel and look a little bit more like myself. So they are going to begin to shave down this ridge on my forehead, so like the return sideways. Can you see a little ridge here? Okay, so they’re gonna see that down. They’re going to shorten the distance between my nose and my upper lip. They’re going to move some fat from my neck and maybe my abdomen underneath my eyes, and then they’ll augment my lips a little bit. So I’m super, I’m so nervous. But I’m super excited. Yeah. Swap you out of work for two and a half weeks at least? I’ll be in the hospital for one night at least.
It seems so. You’re like one night? But you’ve kind of done this right with the round one.
With round one with my shoulder. With some other things. Yeah. Oh, exciting. I’m excited, gender affirming surgeries like facial feminization surgery, top surgery, bottom surgery. Not everybody wants them. But unfortunately, a lot of people who do want them can’t get them. For those of us who do want them and are fortunate enough to get them, I can tell you that it is absolutely medically necessary, just because of the impact it can have on mental health and the impact it can have on physical health. And also the impact it can have on safety. Not only the way that some people perceive us, but the way we perceive ourselves and our confidence and the way that we carry ourselves in the world can make us safer. This has been a big year, five-year transition anniversary getting a new face.
Okay, this is Jeff, I’m recording and I’m going to meet Sy at the pool today. I’m gonna wear my swimsuit, just in case there’s not a changing area. I can already be in it. But I’ll probably wear my binder there. I was 13 years old when I first put on an ace bandage in which was the worst thing you could possibly do incredibly painful. And I’ve been wearing an actual binder since I was 18. And every single day of my life since I was 21. Binders have gotten a little better over the years, but I’ve got actually a really good new one from gc2b and I don’t want to ruin it and swimming in it always ruins it. So I’m looking for like a stretched out one or one that like I guess, clean too much. Sometimes if your binder height, these lines on you. If they’re too tight and you have to pull it over your head. Don’t just repeat your shoulder. With all that said, like I wouldn’t change it like I won’t not wear a binder. I just it makes me feel right and it’s worth it, it’s what gives me the confidence to go through my day in like, you know, there’s just not an option not to wear one. And when you put on a binder and you go out of the house, you just don’t get misgendered, people see you for what you are. And you just feel right. And when you don’t have it on, it doesn’t feel like you
This is Chloe it is coffee time here in the morning. And I just got off the phone with my mom. There’s some potential health issues going on with her. And that’s scary to me for a lot of reasons. And she’s waiting on getting some testing done. And we’ll take whatever information we get from that and go from there. And hopefully things work out well. It’s just the timing is also bad because now she can’t fly and or at least not yet. And my surgery is coming up soon. And I was really hoping she could be out here for that. And I absolutely do not want to put her into any bad situations or any danger. I absolutely did not want to be alone going into the surgery either. But, you know, we got to do what’s best for her and it’s just tough knowing that she’s so far away from me. It’s one of those weird things to hear that your mom may have some potential health issues going on. And they may be serious and that is alarming. It’s scary. It’s our confrontation with an inevitable reality that I do not want to think about or deal with.
We’re at the pool just got here, I gave a ride to my friend Hooks and a friend Jack. Both of them are non-binary and use they/them pronouns. And Jack has also had top surgery but further in the past than me. So it’s kind of an exciting, fun time of sharing my surgery results with friends who’ve been there or maybe haven’t been there yet. And Jeff is also on the way which is super exciting. Jeff is here. Welcome.
Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi.
This is Hooks getting a donut. By the way, pull yourself down. Make yourself comfortable. I really wanted to jump in the pool, let’s do it. How are you feeling about this experience versus the waterpark? Is this better, I am night and day? Like? I mean, it’s hard because like well, it’s not hard. I have in the back of my mind that like oh, but it would be better if we weren’t having this like super private experience. Like I wish I didn’t have to like go be in a private pool that I paid money for. to like get to be myself. But also like I’m having a great time and I do I feel like once you’re like away from people watching you, like or people having a judgment on your body, like I feel so much for like I do feel super free in my body today doing this I’m in the pool. I look around and I noticed that Jeff does not really look like he’s having a good time and he hasn’t gotten in the pool and he’s still you know, just wearing his street clothes. I was gonna say, you know, depending on what you’re comfortable with, like, at least in terms of like, you know, hooks and Jack and I were all trans whatever you know if you are comfortable wearing a shirt, very cool if you are like I’ve always wanted to not wear a shirt like depending on like how you feel. I’ve seen a lot of trepidation on your face. Yeah, I know. That’s why I’m like, I don’t I want to invite you. But I also want you to feel safe and comfortable,
You know, and that, the thing is, is that like, I want to so badly so incredibly badly. It’s crazy. I don’t even know. I’ve swam without my shirt off once, ever. But I think I was coming here. And I was like, I was gonna have their shirt off, it’d be awesome. Now I’m actually wearing a tighter binder than I usually would. I think I got more self-conscious, which is..
I don’t want to be the cause of your feelings.
No, it’s not, I’m examining myself because I hang out with, I basically don’t have trans friends other than my partner. And so I just don’t have any trans men friends. So then when I get around transmen friends, and then we go do something where everyone’s so free and like has their shirts off. So then I’m coming here, and I’m like, oh, my God. There’s a weird freedom that I can possibly have. And it’s like, I haven’t been this off balance in a very long time, because I am so confidently a person who hasn’t had surgery. And then you get in to this moment. And now I’m not so sure I am that person. And it’s like, if you’ve been in prison for 10 years, and you see an open door, and you’re like, I don’t even know what I would do on the other side of that door. Like, would it feel so incredibly freeing that I wouldn’t know how to deal with it? I don’t know.
Hey, how’s it going?
Speaker 5 22:29
Good, how are you?
You’re driving, huh? My brother back in Rochester. It’s a lot for him to have to be the one in town and be there for my parents and everybody else. But I do worry sometimes, then I’d love to be able to help out with that. It’s just really difficult to do from far away.
I’m gonna pick up that for the boys.
How are they doing? […] That’s so cool. Surgery is coming up soon. And it’s just got me really missing my family and all the close ties that I had back in Rochester. And it’s just difficult to know that I’m not there with them and they’re not here with me. You’re gonna be shocked to hear this but I don’t have anything up on my walls yet. […] See, it’s a family trait. I think I’m gonna frame that Montana jersey. The same Joe Montana green Notre Dame jersey that you got me I’m gonna frame that.
Speaker 5 23:31
Yeah, yeah, that was my idea.
Yeah, but I’m actually gonna do it. Alright, let me talk to mom and I’ll catch up with you later. Hey, Mom. How’s it going?
Speaker 6 23:49
Oh, good. How are you, Chloe?
Good. Thanks. And how are things going today? You got the boy’s birthday party coming up?
Speaker 6 23:55
Yes. It’s gonna snow. Don’t like snow. I can’t tramp for a while but.
I know but you know, doctor’s orders. So yeah, we’ll work through it. And that’ll be good too. Hopefully you can take a little bit of a break. […] That would be awesome. I hope you can I hope you do. Yeah, I just missed the boys and I miss you and you know the family and stuff like that and I wish you all could move to LA.
Speaker 6 24:35
You know, that wouldn’t happen.
No, I totally get it. It’s just I don’t know I just miss you in the fact you in the family and you know, seeing the boys grow up you know, they only grow up once so you know even if, you know if it comes down to it and you just can’t fly for a bit when we will figure everything out but I’ll maybe move home and I was thinking a lot about that.
Speaker 6 24:57
You’re not comfortable here in Rochester. I mean, you seem 877more content where you are right now. I know you want to be around family and everything, but you can always come home to visit. You know, most days, you know, where you’re more content.
Yeah, that’s a good point, too. You know? My mom is one of the most generous people I’ve ever met in my life, she is always ready to give away everything that she has to try to help someone else. And she wants what’s best for everyone else. She would never try to steer me in any particular direction other than to be true to myself. And to be happy. I think she would want me in Rochester. But I don’t think she would ever say that.
Speaker 6 25:46
Everything’s going good for you there?
Yeah, things are good. I mean, because I got surgery coming up, which is a little scary. But it’ll be okay.
Speaker 6 25:57
I was hoping to come for that. But I know but maybe you can come home for a while.
I would love to. I’m still looking into fights to see if I can make that happen. So we’ll talk about that a little bit and see what I can do.
Speaker 6 26:14
You give me a call. I’ll let you know how the party went.
McKenzie is a writer, and we met through screenwriting classes. Also welcome you never seen my weird room.
I know, this is crazy.
is that’s the best word to describe it.
It’s just the back of what I see in the Zoom every day.
I love McKinsey so much because we can talk about just about everything. And she’s so emotionally intelligent. The pool party stuff has been really bothering me. It brought a ton of stuff to the forefront that I think I’ve been burying, and still trying to figure out how to work through all the feelings. So then Saturday, you had your big date.
I did my big date.
And it went wonderfully?
It went very well.
So while you were there, I went to a pool gathering thing. We went to this private pool, basically, that they rented because like these other friends had top surgery. And so they were all swimming. And it was like everybody had their shirt off. And they’re like, I haven’t had top surgery. And it was yeah, it was a weird moment where it’s like, I don’t know. I think everybody is conscious with the pool. Everybody does.
Oh my god. Yes. Did you end up taking your shirt off?
I kept my shirt on. The thing I didn’t let myself do was say that I wanted to keep my shirt on, which was really nice. Like, I didn’t go like No, I like this. This is what’s comfortable to me. But in this situation, I kind of let myself feel it. But recognize how uncomfortable it was to have a binder on and a shirt on.
I don’t know if you want to talk about this. But do you feel like there are reasons that you don’t want to get the top surgery?
It’s just such a huge decision. And I saw surgeries that scared me and I can’t deal with it. But at the same time, I’m miserable. I mean, it’s just a constant daily struggle of being torn.
I heard this metaphor one time that was like, it was this idea of when people are drowning in the middle of the ocean and they find like a piece of wood or a buoy or something and they cling on to it. When the rescue team comes to save them. The hardest thing to do have the entire process of getting them onto the buoy is getting them to let go of the thing that was like holding them up and keeping them alive basically. Well, but in a way. It’s like safety and comfort. And what is allowed you to feel like you, and it would be a release of that. I mean, what do you think the ideal solution is?
Top surgery? Yeah, it’s time. I’ve put it off long enough. I know 100%, I’ve known forever and I can’t let being scared stop me anymore. I just have to get top surgery.
How did that feel?
It feels is terrifying to say that I know that I have to get top surgery. And not terrifying because of the top surgery. But because I feel like I’ve let myself down in pushing that down for so long. When people call me brave for so many other really dumb reasons I tell him jokes on stage. I think in order to be to work through all the stuff you have to work through to be a public person who’s trans, you have to be confident in your decisions. Otherwise, people questioned your identity. And so I stuck with this thing out of fear of myself and being confident enough to people accept me as an entertainer. But in reality, it’s been building up that I want a knee top surgery, and I watch everyone else get it. But it’s nice, it’s nice to have come to this. It’s nice to know that I can and it doesn’t define me. And it’s the right thing to do. And I’m so ready. And more confident than ever. And on the other side, I’ll know that I’ll have made the right choice because I gave myself all the time in the world to deny it.
Watch this, this going to be perfect.
There you go. Jeff and I are at the park throwing the football around. And we’ve just been going through a lot of emotional stuff right now. And I think it’d be good for us to just lost some steam. There we go.
Yeah, that’s a satisfying thump. I’m enjoying it that you’re not being accurate. So that I can dive for the ball. So how was your week otherwise?
Been okay, so far? I don’t know. Do you want to sit down? That’s it. There’s some potential family health issues. Hopefully nothing but possibly something. I don’t think I could bear to lose anyone. If things didn’t go well. And, you know, I was just kind of like, starting to build a little bit of community here and like, really enjoying the sun like, and I joke about it, but like it’s really impacted my mental health in a positive way. There’s just a lot going on for me emotionally right now. And I’m really thinking about moving home for good.
That is tough. That is. I would never want to steer you in a direction. But I will say the biggest part that affected me when I would move away from the bigger city that was making me happy. For me. I felt alone and trapped. And you know, I’ve heard New York, it’s crazy people think like New York, Upper New York is basically Texas. In in its values and its guns. And it’s like culture. But there’s also something to be said for like, being around family.
With surgery coming up. So soon, my mind has been spinning all over the place a little bit. And one of the places that it’s going is that time issue. Not only do I feel like I lost that time in being my authentic self, but I also feel like I lost that time being my authentic self with people I love and care about. And just seeing the depth of the relationships and the affection that I have and receive for those people in my life. I missed that. And I want more of that. And I wish I had my entire life of that. But I don’t, so I want to maximize the amount of time I do have with my loved ones. Making decisions is hard. I don’t know and I have this weird thing like I’m realizing that when I start to approach emotional situations, I detach a little bit and I start to compartmentalize and like okay, let me put this in a box and then future Chloe can deal with said box but something that’s like, okay, like, you can have this much emotion. Do not go outside this circle. My reluctance towards being emotional has nothing to do with other people. It has solely to do with myself in that if I fall a park, I think some of the pieces will fall into a river and they will rush away and I’ll never find them again. And I worry about that. Because there’s not a wrong decision necessarily. And that makes it all that much harder. Now, it’s like 5050 of like, should I move home, should I not? Like, I don’t know.
Baby Cakes come on
I was making a coffee.
We try to visit each other constantly. So it’s Emma’s turn, and she’s here to visit. We’re gonna make a plaster mold to try to immortalize my boobs forever before I get rid of them. It’s a good pregnancy belly mold. But we’re gonna do it for boobs. I don’t understand what that tarp is for.
To not get plaster everywhere.
I don’t know if I trust you to do that. I love Emma so much, because she just wants me to be happy. I’ve made the decision that I’m going to get top surgery, but I don’t have the money. And I’ve started I’ve got a little envelope where I’m saving my own cash. And in the meantime, I’m going to have fun with my life. We’re going to make this plaster mold and live it up because this is their last life they’re going out they need to go out in style.
Do you want to sit or stand while you do it?
In warm water and then press each strip onto the casting area. Apply three to four layers, strips should overlap. And then we’re going to wait five to 10 minutes. That’s it, nice. Alright, first strip in. Which one do you think is the?
I don’t think it matters.
Doesn’t matter? Well, there’s one soft side so don’t do the rough side. On my niblet whoa, that like dissolves immediately. Ooh, whoa, this is cool. Oh shit. You’re right. Take off my pants. First year to take this off and then put it on the back. And then you’re gonna take off the pants for me. You don’t have to take; you just calm down. Pull him from the what have you never undressed a grown man before? Put that strip underneath my right nip. No. The other nipple, the other nipple or the other? I think it was more strips on my right boob than my left. Or do they just look that way? This is amazing. This is me and Emma are covered in plaster dust. God knows if this is toxic. There’s sticky stuff everywhere. Basically, we’re making my boobs into a Piñata. Oh, that’s weird. What does it feel like on the outside?
It got hard. Oh, that’s weird.
That’s a timer. Are you ready for the big reveal? Or medium reveal? Oh, they’re off. The boobs have left the building. I’m good. Thanks. It looks great. I mean, it would be way better. It needs to be done like four more times. But it looks really great for what it is. This is fascinating. God, I look like you know, the artistic lesbians that are from the L word was like, oh, I live in an art studio. That’s it. I feel like right now.
How does it make you feel looking at like the form of your body like that? Does it make you feel dysphoric?
Not even slightly because it looks like I’m in a museum. It’s weird whenever you take. I’m so glad we did this. It’s not just that I have this here of what my chest looks like in this moment. But it’s also that I just had a really wonderful bonding moment with my partner and a final farewell to the boobs.
You got to name it.
Hey, good morning, checking in for surgery. You gonna go all the way down to the second exit sign there’s gonna be a signal. I’m at the hospital, I took a cab and I’m about to check in and I know they’re gonna say, okay, who’s here with you? And I’m gonna say, me, I guess? And it’s gonna be okay. It’s going to be fine. I’m gonna get through it. But I am feeling a little bit of that isolation. Should I go now? Facial Feminization Surgery is something I’ve wanted and needed for so long, and I’m really excited about it. And at the same time, it’s a six-hour surgery and that’s not easy for anybody. And I’m really not looking forward to recovering alone. I am as ready as I can be, yes.
Speaker 8 41:19
Okay. Let me go through final list. So we’re going to make an incision right here. Vision, and then I’m going to give you like a good space between your old incision and new incision, type three forehead about a seven-millimeter setback essentially, and then a little bit less tape a little bit of fat for segmental area as well as your abdomen. We’re going to do a little fat graft there in your cheek, sort of like medial cheek area as well as nano cheek area. And then I’m going to take a look at that chin fat on that […] area and see if I can do a little kind of balancing for you. Okay, the upper lip are going to give you a little grafting to the upper lip. Some of that will come from the Para cranium. So underneath your skin as well as I’m going to add some of that to that. And that is it.
Makes sense I’m anxious. I’m nervous. But this will help.
Speaker 8 42:31
Did you leave us a name to call?
My mom. Okay. Yeah, sounds good.
Speaker 8 42:35
I’ll tell her when I’m done.
Cool. She knows to answer from an LA number.
Speaker 8 42:42
So the next time I see you, you’ll be asleep, okay. And the next time you see me you’ll be awake.
Okay. I can do this. They’re about to wheel me away for surgery, and I’m feeling everything. But I’m scared. I’m really scared. And all I really want right now is my mom.
To be continued.
Coming up next on the season finale of BEING TRANS.
This is Chloe definitely freaked the eff out when I got home because one of my eyes swelled completely shut. Somebody told me that there’s an emotional or mental kind of crash after surgery like this. And I think I’m starting to feel that.
I’m sorry, I just got a call from my boss, now something’s happening in their office. So I’m the program manager of the trans wellness Center. It is a tough job, but it also is something personal.
Is there any aspect of your life that isn’t tied to your work?
Not at this time in my life. I’m still looking for what is that I want for myself.
Meaning I have probably the best relationship in the entire world.
Libido shifts are a natural thing that happened and never a relationship.
relationship at this point in time. How long has it been since you’ve had sex?
I haven’t remembered exactly.
Back in February?
Everyone makes sacrifices in relationship.
I get it but some of them are larger than others. I think people can fall into traps.
BEING: TRANS is an audio reality original from Lemonada Media’s BEING studios, executive producers are Jessica Cordova Kramer, Stephanie Wittels Wachs and Kasey Barrett. Our co-executive producer is Sele Leota. Our associate producer is Myrriah Gossett and our assistant producer is Greta Stromquist. Our consulting producer is Sarah Jossel, Scott Hanlon is our audio supervisor and field Recordist with additional field recording by Maurice Mahiya. Makes him sound designed by David Herman and Michael Raphael. Additional mix sound design and consultation by Ivan Kuraev. Our music is by Signature Tracks. Special thanks to the Hot Donna’s club and the Glendale room. BEING: TRANS is brought to you with generous support from the Marguerite Casey Foundation and Wellbeing Trust. You can find us online at @LemonadaMedia and connect with us across all social platforms. Subscribe to Lemonada Media on Apple podcasts you hear bonus content, deleted scenes and more from our cast. If you like what you heard today, please tell your family and friends to listen and subscribe. Rate and review us on Spotify, Apple, Stitcher or wherever you get your podcasts. Until next time, thanks for listening and thanks for BEING.