Acceptance and Agreement Are Not the Same Thing with Lena Waithe
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Actor, producer, and screenwriter Lena Waithe recently completed a 10-day silent retreat during which she had a lot of time to ponder big topics and ideas like attachment, legacy, acceptance, and detachment. After Reshma shares that she’s also done a Vipassana, she and Lena dig deep into ambition, the American Dream, the patriarchy, and the expectations that often get attached to love. Reshma also asks Lena about her career, including how she decides what stories to tell and what Lena learned about writing from the creators of Friends.
Follow Lena @lenawaithe on Instagram.
You can follow our host Reshma Saujani @reshmasaujani on Instagram.
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Transcripts
SPEAKERS
Reshma Saujani, Lena Waithe, Speaker 3
Reshma Saujani 00:00
Welcome to My So-Called Midlife – a podcast where we figure out how to stop just getting through it and start actually living it. I’m Reshma Saujani. The next conversation well, it didn’t go as planned. I had a whole bunch of questions for Lena Waithe about “The Chi”, her podcast, legacy talk, and all of her incredible work, but when she walked in, we immediately started talking about the power of silence. She had recently just done a Vipassana, a ten daysilent retreat. She was deep into thinking about attachment and spirituality. I got sucked in right with her, because, as you know, I too am in the middle of my spiritual practice, and deep into thinking about silence and meditation and how to be present. Instead of going back to the script that I had thought I wanted to talk to Lena about, I just let her go. The conversation was so powerful. I wasn’t attached to what I was supposed to talk to Lena about. I let the journey take us where it was supposed to. Here’s the thing, it took us to a place that was powerful. My conversation with Lena got me thinking about my spirituality too. Because, in midlife, it’s this really profound time, not just for me, but for all of us, right? We’re pondering these deep and important ideas. Sometimes we’re stuck, sometimes we’re full. Something that I’ve really wanted to explore on this podcast is spirituality. Is about teaching people how to be on a spiritual journey, how to start, how to getdeep into it, and soI was just so excited to have this unexpected conversation with Lena, because it’s thegift thatI wanted for all of you. Lena Waithe is an actress, producer and screenwriter. Lena became the first African American woman to win the Primetime Emmy Award for Outstanding Writing for a Comedy Series in 2017 for writing the Thanksgiving episode of Master of None, the best episode ever. She’s the creator of the Showtime drama series “TheChi”, which was renewed for an incredible eighth season. She’s really created this incredible legacy for herselfwith her work, and it’s something she’s given a lot ofthought to. We talked about that in pretty profound ways in this conversation, like, what does it mean tohave a legacy? Why does it matter? Does it matter? Is that legacy for you or for the world? Midlifers,this is an episode I’m telling you you’re going to want to have a pen and a paper for because Lena name tracks so many authors and books and things that she’s watching that I’m dying to check outtoo, and I think you are as well. So sit back, relax, enjoy this deeply moving conversation with a really incredible and phenomenal and spell binding storyteller. Here’s Lena Waithe.
Reshma Saujani 00:00
This is how we always start. We always start by talking a little bit about mindset. Now, you’re just entering midlife, right?
Lena Waithe 00:00
I just turned 41.
Reshma Saujani 00:00
Some people think midlife starts at 35, but you’re still liking the baby. I’m gonna be 50 this year. So, I’m in it.
Lena Waithe 00:00
Depends on when people think we’re gonna go. If you think you’re gonna go at 100, then that’s technically mid. If you can think people we’re gonna go at 80, then I’m technically smack dab in the mid just depends.
Reshma Saujani 00:00
I guess it depends how bad your lifestyle is. I feel we’re gonna live long.
Lena Waithe 00:00
It all depends. Everything dies.
Reshma Saujani 00:00
Eventually. So, assume we’re gonna live to 100 so we’re kind of both in the middle.
Lena Waithe 00:00
Yeah.
Reshma Saujani 00:00
How would you describe this period of your life? Are you happy? Like, I’ll be honest. I’m not that fucking hyped about turning 50. Like, I still have a lot of attachment to youth. How do you feel?
Lena Waithe 00:00
Well, I was like the use of that word. It’s interesting, because I’m coming out of this 10 day silent retreat that I did last month. I was happened to be in there on my birthday. I was in there from the 15th through the 25th and it’s called Vipassana.
Reshma Saujani 00:00
I’ve done it.
Lena Waithe 00:00
Oh, you know I’m talking about. Where you in Boston?
Reshma Saujani 00:09
So I did it, Art of Living. You can do it in the city. You can do it a little bit outside. You did for a whole week?
Lena Waithe 05:51
Ten days.
Reshma Saujani 05:52
Wow.
Lena Waithe 05:52
Yeah. How long did you do it for?
Reshma Saujani 05:54
I did it for four.
Lena Waithe 05:55
Okay.
Reshma Saujani 05:56
It was hard for me.
Lena Waithe 05:57
Yeah, it’s very challenging, but hopefully you found it rewarding. Because how long ago did you do it?
Reshma Saujani 06:03
I did it probably four years ago, but it’s funny that you say that because I was trying to figure out some time. I want to do it again before I turn 50.
Lena Waithe 06:14
Nice. I think that’d probably be smart. I did it. This was my second time. I did it last year, around similar time. I remember I got out, like June 2nd, but it’s interesting. The reason why the word attachment kind of gave me a light bulb moment, because if you remember that attachment is the root of miser.
Reshma Saujani 06:39
Absolutely. I’m practicing Hindu, so I study the Bhagavad Gita.
Lena Waithe 06:45
Okay.
Reshma Saujani 06:45
It’s so interesting. We’re having this conversation, right? Because I feel like I started thinking about these things, in midlife. I’m attached to ambition. I grew up as an immigrant, I’m attached to, right? Still material things or accolades, or just the sense of like, “Oh yes, you haveachieved something in your life”.
Lena Waithe 07:05
Right? It’s about where do you place value. It’s great because you already have the language, even just you using the word attachment is just something that people don’t often use that word. That’s why I kind of was like, “Oh, I think we’re speaking literally a similar language”. Because the reason why you said you kind have attachment to accomplishing maybe certain things before you turn 50.
Reshma Saujani 07:32
Yeah.
Lena Waithe 07:34
Therefore, if you have not accomplished those said things. By 50, you feel a little bit agitated.
Reshma Saujani 07:41
Absolutely.
Lena Waithe 07:42
We know it’s about detaching ourselves from whatever it is we think we’re supposed to accomplish by the time we turn 50.
Reshma Saujani 07:52
Where are you in that process?
Lena Waithe 07:54
It’s interesting, because I really started practicing detachment in a very serious way after the first time I did it. So, I turned 40 just before I went in – the first time. This past year, detachment is something I had abetter education about it because of a persona. I’ve just started to be thoughtful about that. The secondtime around is they do suggest you do it everyyear (the ten day course), which I plan to do, although the future doesn’t exist and the past is gone, all we have is right now. But, I hope to. I’m not gonna attach to the idea, but my hope is to go every year around my birthday, to be reminded of detachment, to be reminded to not cling to things that feel good. But, I was interested because I spoke to Yung Pueblo who writes a lot of great books that a lot of people probably are familiar with. He’s the person that introduced the idea of it to me, but I asked him, “What’s the difference between ambition and sort of wanting?”, because we are sort of taught to accept reality as it is, not as we wish it to be. But oftentimes,if you’re a manifester or if you’re ambitious, you in essence are wanting that thing. They gave me a reallybeautiful answer, where he was saying, “You can put energy toward those things, but try not to put tension”.
Reshma Saujani 09:30
I love that.
Lena Waithe 09:31
I loved it too. It was really helpful, because when you are an ambitious person, you can get that confused with clinging to or attaching to things that haven’t occurred.
Reshma Saujani 09:46
Right?
Lena Waithe 09:46
If those things don’t occur, then that can result in misery or agitation.
Reshma Saujani 09:51
Right.
Speaker 3 09:51
I love it you’re saying. My teacher also taught me that because I had this similar question. Is it bad to want things?
Lena Waithe 10:01
It’s a really good question.
Reshma Saujani 10:02
Is it bad to want things? When we talk to me like, “No, God wants you to want things. We are wanting things in his service. Not in the service of your own ego”. That shift for me, Lena was really powerful because I stopped feeling guilty about. I have an ambition for making the world a better place.
Lena Waithe 10:26
That’s a beautiful want and a beautiful desire.
Reshma Saujani 10:28
But I used to […]. I was feeling guilty though about the outcomes in furtherance of that ambition. You seewhat I’m saying, because I was like, “Is that disconnected to my own ego?” And I think parsing that out for me, really helped.
Lena Waithe 10:42
Well, yeah. I also think the question becomes, what is your definition of a better place. Also, why do you want the world to become a better place? Do you want to become a better place just for you and your family? Or do you want the world to be better for everyone? Then you get to start thinking about, “What does it look like for the world to be better for everyone? For the world to be better for everyone means everyone has what they need.
Reshma Saujani 11:12
Yeah.
Lena Waithe 11:13
Everybody gets everything that they want.
Reshma Saujani 11:16
Yeah.
Lena Waithe 11:16
Then the other question is, I think we have to ask ourselves. Why do we want the things that we do? Because, if you want a fancy car, the question becomes, why?
Reshma Saujani 11:29
Yeah. This is so good because I was thinking about this. This was a lesson that I had to learn a little bit, because I grew up in Chicago, born in Berwyn Illinois. Grew up, went to school in Schaumburg. I know you were up in South Side. I think you relate to this as a daughter of refugees, and my parents were always struggling. But that also meant that the American dream, or the fact that we could go to Olive Garden, or they could buy a nice home in Schaumburg, right? My family wore the forensic sweatshirt, butbought the nice car, because it was still a way of showing the community that they’ve made it.
Lena Waithe 12:22
That, I think is a result of us living in a capitalist society, and that is a reality that I have to accept. What I’ve also learned is that acceptance and agreement are not the same thing.
Reshma Saujani 12:39
I love that.
Lena Waithe 12:40
Just because you accept your reality doesn’t always necessarily mean you’re in agreement with it. The reason why the American Dream often looks like a fancy car, a nice house, your kids going to colleges oruniversities, is because it services capitalism. Just like the beauty industry is built on women being told they are not beautiful.
Reshma Saujani 13:11
Right.
Lena Waithe 13:12
Because if every woman in the world or people that identify as a woman, think that they’re beautiful as they are.
Reshma Saujani 13:19
What can I sell you? Can’t sell you nothing then.
Lena Waithe 13:21
More goes out of business.
Reshma Saujani 13:22
Right?
Lena Waithe 13:23
Plastic Surgeons have nothing to do.
Reshma Saujani 13:23
Feel that way about it. So this year, you feel that way about the American Dream too. Because I guess I’m still very attached to the American Dream, because I think about how my parents came here with $6 in their pockets, came with nothing. Changed their name from Mukundan mother to Mike and Mina. Now their daughter is one’s a doctor, one’s making the world a little bit better. When my father, going back home to Chicago on Sunday to interview Jacinda Arden on her book tour, I know my father’s gonna sit there in this audience of 1000 people, and watch his little girl and him think, “It was all worth it”, and that is like the American Dream to me, right?
Lena Waithe 14:08
Well, here’s the thing. The American Dream is at whose expense, and people have also been sold something on what America is and what it can be, because my ancestors were brought here against their will.
Reshma Saujani 14:33
Right.
Lena Waithe 14:34
There are some people whose ancestors came here looking for a better life. The question becomes, “What does the American dream actually promise you?”.
Reshma Saujani 14:46
It may promise you different things, depending upon whether you were brought here as a slave or you came here as refugee.
Lena Waithe 14:55
The truth is, either way. My grandmother migrated from the South to Chicago. She left the south at 17 because the south wasn’t a fun place to be for a black person. Somebody could argue, it’s still not always a fun place to be if you’re a black person. But, she got a home with my grandfather – a home in which they raised three children. I got to be raised in that home as well when my mother divorced my father when I was two years old. I spent at two from ten, from two to twelve. I was living in that house and also my grandmother helped to integrate that neighborhood. There was a cross burned on across the street from her (her neighbor’s house), the Watsons.
Reshma Saujani 15:41
Wow.
Lena Waithe 15:41
It was really very communal, because I was growing up with kids that were the children of the kids that my mom grew up with. I call it a three generation neighborhood, but I knew it just to be all black folks. But when my grandmother came there, it was not.
Lena Waithe 15:58
It was literally raising in the sun. They moved into a white neighborhood, not necessarily welcome with open arms, and then white flight occurred, then it became all black neighborhood. But by the time I came along in the 80s, it was just a black neighborhood, and that’s all I knew it to be. That was my reality. But, that is also a form of the American story, because even that term “American Dream”. Dream has a beautiful definition for us. It means something to want to desire to reach for. It’s something when you asleep, you have a dream. When you put America and dream next to each other, you can desire it. You can want it. You can look up to it. You can start to worship it. I think that comes from us not always accepting the reality of it, like, “What was America actually built on?”
Reshma Saujani 15:58
Yeah.
Reshma Saujani 16:51
Right.
Lena Waithe 16:52
How did America actually come to be? The truth is, there’s also this desire to look away from some of thehorrors of how America came to become what it is, and so we have to accept the fact that America is a place with a very complex and sometimes horrifying history.
Reshma Saujani 21:26
I’m working on a documentary on motherhood in America. One of the things I tell people, it’s like theculture divide of motherhood is so deeply entrenched. Back into the 1900s back into slavery. Who could be a mother? Who could stay at home? Who had him? Who had the opportunity to take care?
Lena Waithe 21:42
Also, mothers were separated from babies, as we all know.
Reshma Saujani 21:45
Right.
Lena Waithe 21:45
Because black people, in order for us to be treated in the way that we were, they couldn’t necessarily think of us as human. Oftentimes we are listed as almost cattle. So, those mothers did not have the right to their own children because they were both seen as property.
Reshma Saujani 22:05
But, you think about it. What’s happening today for so many black women, they drop their children out at night daycare. Think about that right the amount, how much little time that they actually get to spendin caregiving and we take all this stuff for granted.
Lena Waithe 22:21
Not just mothers of color, but also all types of mothers. I’m reading a book right now called “Mother Hunger”, which is all about how your mother is supposed to give you three things – guidance, nurturance and protection, and how more often than not. There’s something that one, two, and sometimes even all three things that you don’t get from your mother, and how that shows up in adulthood, but also you have to look back at your grandmother, because you have to ask, “Well, what did your grandmother not give your mother?” Because if whatever your mother didn’t receive, it’s difficult for her to give to you. When you the further back you go, the less nurturance is there, the less protection is there. Sometimes even less guidance is there.
Reshma Saujani 23:02
Can it ever go in reverse? Because you ever like, think about this as a mom, and some of the things that Ididn’t get from my mother, and think about with my children how I want to make sure. Like in my family, you never really saw anybody kiss or hug like affection wasn’t just your thing. Now, I find myself with my children just overly because I want them to have the physical contact that I didn’t feel I really had.
Lena Waithe 23:29
True. That is something when you identify it, then you can correct it – course correct, if you will. But, sometimes people can’t always identify what they didn’t get, so they may not realize, “Oh, I didn’t get a lot of guidance. So now as an adult, I don’t have a moral comp”.
Reshma Saujani 23:50
I didn’t feel safe.
Lena Waithe 23:51
Right. I didn’t have a lot of protection. So therefore I look for that in partners or I didn’t have a lot of nurturance, which is really sort of saying, eye contact, your parent, really being connected to you, knowing who you are. And a lot of you know, I really realized, Oh, I really did, lack nurturance. And so there, then you become an adult that looks for outside validation, looking for people to give you approval. Because as a young person, there was no one to say, I want to get to know you. That’s really what nurturance is. And the truth is, is because a lot of mothers don’t have the time, the capacity or the ability, because they maybe didn’t get it from their mothers.
Reshma Saujani 24:26
Do you see that with because you grew up in this three generation family of women with your grandmother, your mother, you talk about that? Do you see that in your family?
Lena Waithe 24:35
I think, it can be generational, can also be cultural. A lot of times there’s this really great line, like in Fences, where the son says to the Father, “How come you never liked me?” And the father says, “I don’t have to like you”. He basically says,like I feed you, I clothe you, I house you. That’s enough. I think for that generation, for them, that’s what parenting is, or was.
Reshma Saujani 25:08
Right.
Lena Waithe 25:08
That’s that to me. I think it can be generational and cultural. What happens is, you have a generation of people that grow up not having any real emotional connection to their parents, but yet there’s this sort of responsibility that they feel to them.
Reshma Saujani 25:29
Sense of duty.
Lena Waithe 25:29
Yes. The pastor tells you pure love comes with no expectations. I think my generation, 41 or a lot of my friends are in their 40s, just turning 40, we’re realizing there’s an expectation of us – to look out for the parent, to honor the parent, to take care of the parent, not necessarily because there is a bond, but because there is a debt owed.
Reshma Saujani 25:57
I find that possibility too. The sense of duty is a good thing, right? Because I think culturally, it’s this idea of taking care of your elders is like “Seva”, right? It’s like giving back.
Lena Waithe 26:11
I don’t necessarily agree in terms of that. I just don’t believe there should be an expectation. I think if there was a bond, that’s what makes an adult child come back. Also, what makes an adult child come come back is asense of responsibility. I think that is where a lot of tension lies and resentment because if your parent didn’t bond with you or get to know you, their parents didn’t get to know I used the word curiosity. I think there was a lack of curiosity about who I was as a person. It was more I was something to take care of.
Reshma Saujani 27:08
But was it because they were see? I guess the way I rationalized this with my family is because they were just trying to survive.
Lena Waithe 27:14
Correct. That’s totally fair. The thing is, when a person becomes an adult, there’s a consequence to that – here’s the other thing too. Having children is a choice.
Reshma Saujani 27:34
Absolutely.
Lena Waithe 27:35
I’m choosing to not have kids. Now, if a person chooses to have kids because none of us said, “Hey, please have me”. If someone has a child, and that’s the situation we’re in now. Sometimes people feel like, “I don’t have a choice, society tells women […].
Reshma Saujani 27:55
Only right if you have a child.
Lena Waithe 27:57
Or someone cannot afford or has a privilege to get an abortion in wherever they’re living. My question becomes, if you’re having a child, we go back to the want. Why do you want to have a child? Do you want to have a child because you want to be a vessel for a person to come through into the world? For them to exist in the world outside of you, or doyou want them to be an extension of you? Or want to be friend?
Reshma Saujani 28:27
Or you want to relive your past?
Lena Waithe 28:30
Again, that now is expectation on this child, on this person.
Reshma Saujani 31:11
Your God given gift, is your ability to story tell. First, black woman to like win – you just are, have achieved so much in your life. How do you think about what we’re just talking about, in terms of the stories that you tell, the stories that you’re attracted to? When you decide, as a creative? I’m gonna turn this into a script, a show, a book. How does that impact?
Lena Waithe 31:40
For me, it’s really about things that are stirring inside of me that I can’t let go of. Things that kind of stay with me. I don’twant to use the word haunt, but rather things that stay and I go, “Okay, I want to explore this”. I think my perspective onthis could be an interesting one, but it really is the job of a writer, to not judge – we cannot, otherwise you can’t write good characters. Also, when you’re an actor, we’re empathy ambassadors. It’s like Meryl Streep, does a beautiful job. The Iron Lady playing Margaret Thatcher. If she judges her, then so will the audience. She has to come to grips with everything this woman has done has decided go even further – Anthony Hopkins and Hannibal Lecter. It’s easy to judge that character, but sounds of the lambs doesn’t work if you only care about the person that’s outside of the cage.
Reshma Saujani 32:48
Right.
Lena Waithe 32:52
That really is a writer’s job is to make you care and see about every single character that comes into frame.
Reshma Saujani 33:01
How did you learn how to do that?
Lena Waithe 33:04
It’s interesting. I learned by watching Friends, Sex and the City, Living Single, and A Different World – yes, they’re sitcoms. But, the thing that you learn very early on when you want to be television writer, I remember hearing Marta Kauffman and David Crane saying, “You cannot have two characters in the same scene agreeing with each other, or you do not have a scene”. Characters in a scene cannot be in agreement. What I love about Aaron Sorkin’s voice is a lotof things, but he writes like a lawyer. He has to argue every side relentlessly. If I have two characters, arguing about gun violence, arguing about abortion, arguing about gay marriage, I have to be able to fight both sides. Otherwise the audience is gonna sit at home and go, “Well, this argument’s lopsided”.
Reshma Saujani 34:09
My vehicle as a movement builder is a speech. I have a similar thing. I get real curious about something. I can’t get out of my head. I can’t sleep right now. I’m really obsessed about gender, and I feel like we’re tricking people – whether it’s about men, women, trans. The reason why boys are suffering is because women are rising, right? All of that is based on this idea that progress is just zero sum, which I think is the biggest con and the biggest lie. For me, I have an idea and then I put it into a speech, that’s the way that I execute on shifting consciousness right in society. But, it’s very judgment full.
Lena Waithe 34:52
Here’s the deal again, about acceptance. Accepting the reality as it is and as we wish it to be. I accept that we live in a patriarchal society. That’s not an opinion because history shows us that. Can you show us a woman president on the map?
Reshma Saujani 35:13
No.
Lena Waithe 35:14
Do women make less than men?
Reshma Saujani 35:15
Yes.
Lena Waithe 35:17
The question becomes, who does the patriarchy benefit who wrote the rules? Were there any women in the room when they wrote no the Constitution? Were there any black people in the room when they wrote the Constitution? Also, if you think about why there is such an extreme fear and an attack on people who identify as non-binary.
Reshma Saujani 35:39
Because there’s threatening the status quo.
Lena Waithe 35:43
Correct and society doesn’t know where to place you. Are you a first class citizen or a second class citizen? No matter how many ways you slice it, women are second class citizens in the nation in which we live. Any person that doesn’t subscribe to the binary, they do not know where to place you. We can use it just like that as an example. Sara Ramirez, who is a self-identified person that is non-binary. People think they don’t like the character, but what they don’t realize is that they have been taught to not subscribe to someone that does not subscribe to the binary. What I try to do is just sort of say very calmly and plainly that a lot of our opinions and ideas are not our own, but rather something that we’vebeen indoctrinated since birth because think about toys, our little girl. What toys am I giving?
Reshma Saujani 36:44
Right. Pink ones, barbie?
Lena Waithe 36:46
Not even that actual baby dolls. I’ll never forget. There’s one in which you change the diaper, there’s a poop and pee in the diaper that shows up. As a young girl, even my own mother, no fault of her own is giving us dolls and babies and playhouses. We are raised to be domestic. Boys are given fire trucks, superheroes, sports, bat balls – to be active, to be aggressive, to be protectors. Children toys and things like that are very important. Just watch the Pee-Wee Herman documentary called Pee-Wee as himself. Highly recommend it. I used to watch the Pee -Wee Herman’s Playhouse as a young person.
Reshma Saujani 37:41
Me too.
Lena Waithe 37:42
Now, having perspective – not being a young kid watching it, but being a 41 year old looking at a documentary. Lookingback, he was wearing heels, he was avant garde. He was a real performance artist, obviously. Now, we know there was queerness within his life, and he was making art for children to say, “You don’t have to be what you’ve been told to be”.
Reshma Saujani 38:06
Yeah.
Lena Waithe 38:07
He, of course, was almost ripped away and said, “No, he’s a pervert. He’s a pedophile. Don’t look at him. He’s bad”.
Reshma Saujani 38:15
When they realized what he was, trying to shift.
Lena Waithe 38:18
What he was really trying to say was, “Let kids be themselves”. Who are children? What are they? What are their personalities? Let’s not tell them who to be, but rather let them reveal themselves to us. Of course, becomes a pariah. In society, those who are the powers that make the rules if you will, don’t want young kids to go away from tradition. That’s why that word can be scary
Reshma Saujani 38:46
Right?
Lena Waithe 38:46
Because it used to be tradition that men would sort of sell their daughters away.
Reshma Saujani 38:51
Yeah. I think everything you’re saying is so powerful and so true that’s why we the pendulum keeps shifting. We win a battle where we move away from the binary, move away from putting people in boxes, lead to what I think is the truth, which is a lot more choice, freedom, openness, and then there’s too much. Then people just swing it right back.
Lena Waithe 39:14
Well, everything is cyclical. Everything is always changing, as we know.
Reshma Saujani 39:18
Yeah.
Lena Waithe 39:20
Why does it go back?
Reshma Saujani 39:21
Why does it go back?
Lena Waithe 39:23
Because those in power benefit from the patriarchal capitalist, white leaning. Who does that benefit? Who does it look at who the million the billionaires are? Who’s in power? Who is president? It tells you something. Here’s the deal. You look at who is in power, look at you as the president. That’s a majority.
Reshma Saujani 39:53
Do you think those institutions, though are weakening? Some would argue the reason for example right now, you have this huge kind of scream of toxic masculinity is because it’s breaking. The patriarchy has got a crack in it. What do you think about that?
Lena Waithe 40:14
Interesting. How much is it cracking when you look at who is currently president of our nation. I don’t know how much is cracking, because it takes more than just men to uphold the patriarchy. There’s this really beautiful book by.
Reshma Saujani 40:32
Can you just give me your reading lesson?
Lena Waithe 40:34
I will. I mean, there’s a book called “Sky Full of Elephants”. A friend of mine, Cebo wrote it. It’s his first, debut novel in which he imagines a world where whiteness no longer exists. Therefore only people of color are walking around in existence, and there’s an element of having to redefine who you are when you are not being.
Reshma Saujani 41:01
That privilege or when you’re not the oppressed?
Lena Waithe 41:04
Being oppressed, because there’s no whiteness to be spoken of or to be seen. It’s this sort of interesting world, how people are walking around, because these people knew what white was a day where you know it all happened, but theynow have to redefine themselves. If you think about, if women have to live in a world where men do not exist or not men, per-se, then it could be something seen as anti-male where the patriarchy doesn’t exist. Because patriarchy is not only held up by men, then who do women become?
Reshma Saujani 41:36
Who do men become? That’s the thing that people are struggling with.
Reshma Saujani 41:40
Right.
Lena Waithe 41:40
We know that there’s nothing more difficult than pattern breaking.
Lena Waithe 41:40
That’s the thing. It’s like Baldwin has a beautiful quote that says, “Not everybody wants to be free, because when you have it, what are you to do with it?” It’s like breaking a pattern.
Reshma Saujani 41:57
Legacy is very important to you. Why that word? Why that frame?
Lena Waithe 42:05
I think because we don’t own anything. Nothing belongs to us. Yes, I have an Emmy. When I’m no longer earthside, that Emmy is no longer my possession. I don’t need someone to put it in my casket with me before they close it and and burymy body. All I have is something that is not tangible which is a legacy, the work I leave behind, and the way in which people may remember me.
Reshma Saujani 42:39
That’s a grown person’s perspective on it. It’s a very wise for 41 to really come to that. I know women right now that are 80 are still not thinking about their legacy in the way that they need to.
Lena Waithe 42:53
The truth is, a legacy does not belong to you either, because your legacy really can’t be defined until you’re gone. There are three stars that I grew up with and were very defining in my life that are no longer earthside – Whitney Houston, Michael Jackson, Prince. Their legacies came into view once they were no longer here, and they have no control over those legacies, literally. The people that run their families, that run their estates, that’s something different, because it’s about how do you continue to make money off of this artist in some way. Again capitalist society, even when you’re gone, we’re gonna still release music, we’re still gonna license it, we’re still gonna sell merch. But, the legacy is something else. Paul Reubens his legacy, because of this documentary, I was really grateful to do a documentary called being Mary Tyler Moore. In which Dr. Robert Levine trusted me with Mary’s legacy, to really give people perspective, context.
Reshma Saujani 44:08
Yeah, and to write the story, right?
Lena Waithe 44:10
Well, the story had already been written. For me, it was more about helping people to see what she had done. What I loved when people would come up to me, they would say there were so many things I did not know about Mary Tyler Moore. All I knew was a smile and a hat being thrown up. Then they realized, “Oh, she was an alcoholic. She was also raised by one. Her mother was an alcoholic. She became one herself. She lost her son to an accidental suicide, thenwould go on to play a mother”. I think it actually happened after, but she played a mother who lost a son of ordinary people to an boating accident. How life imitated art, and how she had a very troublesome time on Broadway in the beginning, thoroughly Modern Millie. Did not work, and they returned. She took on a role, whose life is it anyway? It was a role played by a man and one of the first people to come in and shift gender. She won a special Tony for that performance. There were so many things that people didn’t understand about a lot of that because I read her memoir when I was like in high school called “After all”. Also, I was always been a student of television, watching “The Dick Van Dyke Show”, and then watching “The Mary Tyler Moore Show”, and seeing how she gave us two definitions. There it is about what a woman can be. She showed us what it is to be a stay at home wife and mother, then obviously showed usa very sort of revolutionary role as a woman who was a career woman, who was childless and unmarried. To me, I would say, she showed the Jacqueline Kennedy of television, she sort of showed you two sides of womanhood and how both were valid.
Reshma Saujani 45:59
What’s your advice on shaping legacy? Because as you were talking, I’m thinking, you cannot be what you cannot see. I think it is so important. Start an organization called “Girls Who Code” spent 10 years teaching. Half the girls we taught were black and brown, like Hidden Figures. Some of the oldest women in STEM were women of color, but we didn’t share those stories. We didn’t tell those stories till much later, and the impact of telling those stories are so powerful on girls of color. This idea of legacy is so important to preserve, to share, to tell. What can we all do to make sure that our own stories are being told? Or that stories that are important for other people to see themselves and what is possible are being told?
Lena Waithe 46:50
I think everybody has their own path. Look, I obviously witnessed Halle Berry win an Oscar, being the first black woman to ever do that. But, I also am a person that continues to witness the academy not follow that up. Sometimes representation can be empty, and we have to be careful not to put too much value in it, because then people feel as if they’ve done all they needed to do.
Reshma Saujani 47:17
Right? Check it’s done.
Lena Waithe 47:19
Exactly. It took a while for Quinta to come after me. Then the question becomes, who follows Quinta? Which are the only two black women in that category who ever won the Emmy for Outstanding Writing in the comedy series? Just to think about how long the Academy Television has been around. You kind of accept the reality that we live in a white leaning society, and you can let award shows. People would say, “Well, don’t put too much value in awards”. Sure, no, but let it be an example and a reflection of the society in which we live. It’s a snapshot of it. It’s how many black womenhave won the Oscar for Best Actress. One, how long have the Oscars been around? Almost 100 years. Again, a reflectionof society. That’s all Hollywood has ever been, a reflection of our society. But legacy, I think, can only be told by people that are not you. So with legacy talk with Lena Wade, it was really important for me to highlight women that have become invisible just because we live in a society. These are black women or women of color. We’ve had our first two male guests on the show – Bill Duke and Robert Townsend coming up. But because we live in a white leaning society, again, I say that calmly and plainly. That’s not something. That’s not an opinion, it’s a fact. Look at our string of presidents. How many black ones do we have? One. Grateful for it. How many presidents have we had? You can look at who’s gonna be honored at Emmys. Not a lot of predominant black casts, Latino cast or Asian cast.
Reshma Saujani 48:55
Everytime you get one, then everyone gets real upset.
Lena Waithe 48:58
Because it’s doing what it’s starting to break a pattern. People want to go, who was president after Barack Obama? I says to say with legacy, this person who I do want to speak about, Suzanne de passe – who a lot of people may not know that name, but this woman, she also was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, one of the very few execs to be inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. She worked alongside. She began working for but started to walk work alongside, Berry Gordy. She discovered Michael Jackson and the Jackson Five. She was a producer on Mahogany. She did so many things, and her career also produced a really amazing TV movie that meant a lot to me and had a huge impact on me, called “Jackson Five”, an American Dream. There’s the two words, again. A family of many, with very little money become royalty. One of the youngest in the group becomes a lot of things. He’s a child, probably. She becomes one of the greatest pop stars ever, becomes a pariah. We needed all of those stages. We don’t get it without Suzanne de Passe.
Reshma Saujani 50:09
Wow.
Lena Waithe 50:09
So, I look forward to talking to her on legacy talk, to hear more about her story.
Reshma Saujani 50:14
I look forward to hearing it too.
Lena Waithe 50:16
It is honestly my responsibility. You talk about responsibility. Somebody could argue, you have responsibilities. The people that produced you. Suzanne de Passe did help produce me. Just because she didn’t birth me, doesn’t mean that I’m not sitting here because of the work that she’s done.
Reshma Saujani 50:38
I want to ask you something. You really value mentorship? I always said, What’s the point of having power or a platformif you’re not going to use it for good? I see you do that, and going back to that point about expectation, but it’s clear to me, you don’t do it because you’re supposed to. You do it because?
Lena Waithe 51:00
Was also what I’ve been taught by people in my life who have led by example. So I worked for Mara Brock Akil, who created Girlfriends, The game and now, Forever. She did a really beautiful thing, that when my time with her was up, she recommended me to Gina Prince-Bythewood for me to go and be her assistant. I went and started working forGina Prince-Bythewood – who is the writer, director of Love and Basketball. She did Woman King. She now has Childrenof Blood and Bone coming. While working for Gina, I witnessed her be a mentor to others. Again, that’s sort of teachingwithout telling. Then it came time for my time to be out with Gina, she recommended me to a filmmaker who was making her first narrative film, and she needed some support on set. And that woman was Ava DuVernay.
Reshma Saujani 51:53
Wow.
Lena Waithe 51:55
I have been taught by example how to lead in that way? I think society teaches us a lot of things. I love again Baldwin says we must vomit up all the untruths that we have been taught and fed.
Reshma Saujani 52:10
Right? One of those roles people always ask me, “Well, why are women aren’t nice to each other?” I’m like, “Why don’t we stop saying that narrative?”.
Lena Waithe 52:18
I think it’s odd to say women, because there are people in the world that just happen to not be kind for reasons that we have to ask them because I also have to see everybody as eight year olds. Imagine the meanest, most vicious, most vile person you can imagine, then think of them as eight year old. Know that something along their journey shifted them into this being.
Reshma Saujani 52:47
Yeah. Hurt people hurt. Last question. I want to go back to where we started. I love this teaching for everyone who’s listening about silence and I think silence retreats, silence experiences, I think they’re so powerful. What is the thing as you came out of your last silence, that taught you about going back to the stage in your life that you would want to justshare with people?
Lena Waithe 53:17
I think the biggest thing that came out for me was everything changes. Everything is impermanent. Everything changes.When you realize that, you’re able to accept a little bit more like you could say, “Okay, this doesn’t feel really good”, andwe often say this too shall pass about things that don’t feel great, because just remind ourselves this isn’t forever. If you think something is forever, that’s an untruth, that’s a goes against nature. Nothing is forever – not life, not a season, not a feeling, but we also remember that when something good is happening, this too shall pass. This is not forever. If you cling to the idea that it is, you will be disappointed. The thing really is to observe, be aware and not cling or create an aversion. Don’t create an aversion to something that doesn’t feel great, don’t cling to something that does, because youwill only be agitated. It’s a matter of just really being present. Observe it, be aware of it, because everything that’s happening to you is for your own liberation. I also apply that to if everything is changing, so should people. There’s a phrase that a lot of people sometimes wear as a badge of honor, take me or leave me. What I now know is because if the seasons change, people should too. If someone says, “Take me or leave me”, I’m gonna leave you where you stand, because I am always trying to evolve.
Reshma Saujani 55:05
Me too.
Lena Waithe 55:06
I think a word that we often use which I don’t think we should, is saying I’m always trying to be better. No, I’m always trying to become myself. I want to become more of who I’m meant and destined to be and better is sort of a very cheapword, because again, what is that definition and what is better? No, who are you? The other question is like, Who do youwant to be? And if you want to be someone that goes against the law of nature, you have to work really hard to stay in the same place, to keep doing the same things. We all know people, if you really sit and think, who are people that are behaving this year in the same way in which they did last year?
Reshma Saujani 56:01
With no evolution.
Lena Waithe 56:02
No evolution, no growth. We all know now evolution is real. You can deny it if you want, but it’s real because you can look at nature. You look at a flower that’s closed. As the days go, it starts to bloom but can’t bloom forever, has to close again. I think that’s really such a beautiful sort of metaphor for life, we have to open and close. The seasons will come, it’ll rain, but it’s almost like being mad at the rain. It’s like, “Oh, I hate it when it rains”. That’s not gonna stop it from raining. So, you might as well accept the fact that it’s raining and know that eventually the clouds will part again.
Reshma Saujani 56:46
Thank you for the gift of this conversation.
Lena Waithe 56:48
Thank you for creating space for it.
Reshma Saujani 56:50
You my profound thanks Lena Waithe for this beautiful conversation. The seventh season of the shy is currently airing on Showtime. One last thing, thank you so much for listening to My So-Called Midlife. If you haven’t yet, now’s a great time to subscribe to Lemonada Premium. You’ll get bonus content like me and Shannon Watts talking about stepping away from organizations we founded. Talk about leaving a legacy. Just hit the subscribe button on Apple podcasts, or for all the other podcast apps. Head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe. That’s lemonadapremium.com. Thanks, and we’ll be back next week.
Reshma Saujani 57:44
I’m your host, Reshma Saujani. Our associate producer is Isara Acevez. Our senior producer is Chrissy Pease. This series is sound designed by Ivan Kurayev. Ivan also composed our theme music and performed it with Ryan Jewell and Karen Waltuck. Our VP of new content is Rachel Neel. Special thanks to our development team, Hoja Lopez, Jamela Zara Williams and Alex McOwen. Executive producers include me, Reshma Saujani, Stephanie Wittels Wachs and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Series consulting and production support from Katie Cordova. Help others find our show by leaving a rating and writing a review. And let us know how you’re doing in midlife. You can submit your story to be included in thisshow at speakpipe.com/midlife. Follow My So-Called Midlife, wherever you get your podcast or listen ad free on Amazon music with your prime membership. Thanks so much for listening. See you next week. Bye.
