AI Should Fear Justine Bateman
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I’ve known for years that the actor and filmmaker Justine Bateman had prescient thoughts about art and society. But now, we need her (and her complementary background in computer science) more than ever. Far-removed from her teen stardom on Family Ties, Justine and I talk about how artificial intelligence threatens the existence of movies, books, and even our creative souls. I knew there was something to opting for privacy, and it turns out that Justine specifically sees it as a way to protect art as we know it. Plus, we discuss how fickle fame can be and why she finds beauty and practicality in aging naturally.
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Transcript
SPEAKERS
David Duchovny, Justin Bateman
David Duchovny 00:00
I’m David Duchovny and this is Fail Better – a show where failure, not success, shapes who we are. Justine Bateman is a filmmaker, author and former third grader. She rose to fame at a young age playing Mallory Keaton in the 1980s sit.com Family Ties, and received Emmy and Golden Globe nominations. A few years ago, Justine made her directorial debut with a film called Violet, which is about grappling with fear and self doubt, topics we’ll discuss today. As a vocal advocate for natural aging, Justine promotes self acceptance, challenging both society and Hollywood’s standards. She wroteabout this in her most recent book face, which delves into the cultural and psychological aspects of growing older. The previous book fame dissects that topic at length.
David Duchovny 00:00
Your movie that I’m in called “Feel” which friends of mine saw at your film festival. We were at a Barnes and Noble, because you very generously moderated.
Justin Bateman 00:00
That book is so great.
David Duchovny 00:00
Thank you the reservoir over there, and you came into the green room. I forget what your direction was.
Justin Bateman 00:00
Oh, it’s just with all these different people, I just put a camera on them. Said, we’re just gonna sit here for 30 minutes.
David Duchovny 00:00
It was 30 minutes.
Justin Bateman 00:00
Yeah, you can talk or not talk, totally up to you. For anyone who didn’t talk, near the end I would ask, “What’s been on your mind?”. Mostly lately.
David Duchovny 00:00
Was I still on camera when you asked me that? Because when I saw the film, it’s me just sitting there, but then there’s a bit of a voiceover.
Justin Bateman 00:00
Yeah, I also did all this color dye art.
David Duchovny 00:00
Yeah, it was beautiful.
Justin Bateman 00:00
What people had said over, that the sound over them sitting there silently, and also over the color dye. So, I matched like a color dye piece to each person.
David Duchovny 00:00
Did you have a sense of it’s called feel? I don’t know if you told me if it was called feel or not. And I don’t know if you gave me any direction aside from what you just said, but was there in your mind? Did you know what that film was going to be about when you started it?
Justin Bateman 00:00
No.
David Duchovny 00:00
Tell me what you thought when you started it. Why you thought that was going to be a generative idea?
Justin Bateman 00:00
I didn’t. Okay. Usually I do project I know exactly or I believe I do right. What the objective is, what the thesis statement is, and all that. I was interested in everything, everybody was saying, and a lot of people said very profound things. It’s not like I pushed them to, that just happened to be. I know a lot of people who think profound thoughts.
David Duchovny 00:00
Right.
Justin Bateman 00:00
I guess because I just say what he been thinking about, mostly lately. Then what came to my mind next was, “Oh, You should do an audio recording of all your journal entries about this process of making a fil in this manner”. And I was like, “Me, personally as a person, I was like, No fucking way. I don’t want to do that”. But me as a director was like, I knew that was the thing that was going to sort of be the spine through it, the progression through it, because the rest of these are stand alones. I was like, “What would compel me to watch the next one?” And it’s like, “Oh, if there was a progression, a thread through it that kept me that way”.
David Duchovny 00:00
What do you think that thread was?
Justin Bateman 00:00
The thread was me having such a problem with doing a film in this one manner. I had a real problem with it. My pattern is like, “I have to dig then and find out why do I have a problem with this? Why is this pushing my buttons?” so that I can get rid of whatever irrational fear, whatever I had under that. So, the journal entries were like exposing that as I did the project.
David Duchovny 00:00
Right.
Justin Bateman 00:00
All these actors are going to think I’m a fucking idiot. I asked me, “What are you doing with this? And I say, “Honestly, I don’t know”.
David Duchovny 01:23
It’s very interesting because I want to ask you about like this – not the standards, but the criteria. Because, this is nominally about failure. The criteria, when you go into an experimental (experimental movie) like that.
Justin Bateman 06:44
Avant garde, unchartered.
David Duchovny 06:46
The criteria is different like failure, you’re not talking about box office or whatever. So, you have an intrinsic sense of, “Did I do it? Or Did I not do it?”.
Justin Bateman 06:56
Yeah, we should always though.
David Duchovny 06:59
I know, right?
Justin Bateman 07:00
That should always be. I see writing, directing and producing as a service position.
David Duchovny 07:06
Great.
Justin Bateman 07:06
You’re servicing. We have to understand what the project is about, right?
David Duchovny 07:11
Yeah.
Justin Bateman 07:11
See if you agree, then you have to service that.
David Duchovny 07:13
But, what I hear you saying is you are doing the project in order to understand why you’re doing the project. It’s almost like you talked about fear. Like, okay, I’m afraid of something. It seems like the movie is an answer to that in a way, but you don’t know that going in. I think the best stuff that I’ve ever done has been like, I have no idea aside from, “Okay, it’s a paycheck. I’m doing it”. But then I find out later, “Oh, that’s why I did that”.
Justin Bateman 07:49
Yeah, that’s great. But you know, you’re a director too. So you know, as an actor, you can walk in like that.
David Duchovny 07:57
Yes, right
Justin Bateman 07:58
Acting is more ephemeral compared with directing and writing. I was going to make a construction comparison, but I can’t think of a really good one right now. But when you’re writing or directing, you have to be setting. I mean, acting you’re setting a structure too, but it’s […].
David Duchovny 08:20
Not really. I feel like, “Well, you talking like this”. I think you’re talking about, you have to make a foundation.
Justin Bateman 08:26
Because you’re setting something that every other department is going to be following.
David Duchovny 08:31
Right?
Justin Bateman 08:32
So it can’t, I guess it can. I mean, to just set something that’s like, “I don’t know what this is, let’s see”.
David Duchovny 08:41
Yeah.
Justin Bateman 08:41
Maybe I was able to do that with these two films, because they cost almost no money.
David Duchovny 08:48
Right.
Justin Bateman 08:48
And I didn’t have any financiers asking, “What’s going to be done with it?”
David Duchovny 08:53
Yeah? I just remember to go back to the direction you gave me, which I hadn’t remembered till now. In my memory, it was like I was sitting there for five minutes. You tell me, “It’s 30 minutes”. Interesting, I just remember feeling, “What does she want?” […]. Then I thought, “Well, that’s probably not the right question to be asking myself”. What am I feeling? I don’t know if you told me if it was about feeling or if you told me to look at you or not look at you.
Justin Bateman 09:30
No, maybe you asked and I said, “Whatever we want”. You can. You just can’t go to sleep, can’t get up, can’t look at your phone.
David Duchovny 09:39
What I would feel my shortcoming as a interviewer would be is like, “I don’t want you to feel uncomfortable”. And I think as a director sometimes, you have to deal with people who work best if they’re comfortable, then they work best if they’re uncomfortable. You know, people are very different and what they respond to. What they give their best to? That’s what I was thinking. I was like, “I was dealing with how do I give Justine? What does she want? How can I give her what she wants here?”. Thirty minutes is a long time. So, I probably got past that. I was like, “Well, I’m sure it’s whatever itis”. I don’t really understand it, but should I try to feel something? Should I not try to feel something? Okay, now I’ll just like, sit here and think. I don’t mind sitting here and thinking, that’s all I remember. I didn’t think about it again until my friend said I saw that movie, she said, “it’s really good”. I was like, “Wow, I’d like to see it”, then I watched it. I was moved in some weird ways. You know, it doesn’t move you in the way that movies move you when you go to. I’m not like caught up in the story.
Justin Bateman 11:01
The story, right?
David Duchovny 11:02
But I’m caught up in something and that’s why it works. I’m caught up in an ambiance, a mood, a something, a question. I think it does things that movies can do, but we don’t often ask them to do.
Justin Bateman 11:22
I really think that’s part of where the new genre and film is going to go. That’s really real, human and raw.
David Duchovny 11:35
Yeah.
Justin Bateman 11:36
Whereas this sort of shadow of what. You know, the film business that we knew. As far as I’m concerned, it died, it’s done.
David Duchovny 11:36
What do you mean by that?
Justin Bateman 11:43
I mean, the business that there was enough room for every genre. There was enough room for every you know. There was Suzanne Somers and Sir John Gielgud, and everyone coexisted. There was enough money to go around. Our financial ecosystem was really healty, it worked.
David Duchovny 12:07
Yeah.
Justin Bateman 12:09
It worked the way the audience paid us, the way advertisers paid us, residuals – all of that. Then the streamers came in and really carpet bagger, as far as I’m concerned.
David Duchovny 12:25
Can you define carpet bagger for those who haven’t studied American history?
Justin Bateman 12:29
Sure, come on into an arena and basically fuck it all up. Undercut everyone. Get it to a point where you’ve eliminated the competition that existed when you stepped in, and then do whatever you want almost for the sake of it.
David Duchovny 12:50
In the beginning, when Netflix is starting to get really active, 2016 2017 Then Apple and Amazon. Everybody starts making streamer entities. I thought, “Wow, there’s so much more. There’s so much moreopportunity. This is fantastic”. But in fact, what you’re saying happened, happened.
Justin Bateman 13:18
Well, here’s how it seemed to me. We go back like, 2013-2014 was when House of Cards, right?
David Duchovny 13:27
Okay.
Justin Bateman 13:28
So we go a little bit before that. The studios, they weren’t really doing those mid-level projects anymore, right? We still had some independent film being done. But they were like, “Loving this pattern of spending $100 million to make $100 million. To clear $100 million”. Even though you’re only doubling your money, they don’t want to spend time with smaller films that are maybe going to quadruple or 10 times, what the budget was.
David Duchovny 14:00
If it’s only a 5 million budget, you’re only making 50 million.
Justin Bateman 14:03
Exactly.
David Duchovny 14:03
Yeah.
Justin Bateman 14:04
So, why put the same amount of effort into the promotion and looking over the script beforehand and all that. But, they were smart about one thing. When they first came in, they saw what was missing – thatmid-level, and Amazon did Manchester by the Sea. Netflix did House of Cards, and there was some good stuff being done, either acquired or being produced. They were also doing a lot of licensing of studio stuff.
David Duchovny 14:35
Yeah.
Justin Bateman 14:35
But, as they became more popular, the studios were like, “Hey, I don’t want to make this licensing deal with you anymore”, like “Screw you. What do you guys? You know this is you guys are becoming bigger than us”. Then they went well, we’ll make our own stuff then. Their DNA though, is a tech company DNA. It’s a scaling DNA. Their whole business model is completely different. They have investors. They don’t have to. For most of those companies, this isn’t their primary business at all.
David Duchovny 15:15
Yeah.
Justin Bateman 15:15
So, they don’t really care if it does well or not. It’s a loss leader.
David Duchovny 15:15
It’s branding. It’s brand, yeah.
Justin Bateman 15:15
Especially like Amazon, it’s like “Oh, while you’re here, why don’t you buy all this other stuff that we’re selling”. Anyway, just wanting to scale, and wanting to get more subscribers in all this, then they just started looking at keeping people there and thinking on an international level which means genre stuff – not all the genres, but just the stuff where you don’t need to know the language – action, horror. Then they just started just churning it out and then you have the studios. Instead of retreating going, what’s our competitive advantage over these people? We know how to make films, and we have relationships with all these stars. You got the problem of all the streamers, like throwing.
David Duchovny 16:08
Throwing the money.
Justin Bateman 16:08
Pockets of money at them. Anyway, then they started chasing the shooter, started chasing the tech model. Now, on top of that introducing AI which can automate this content factor generation. It’s all just all fucked.
David Duchovny 20:22
What I thought was very perceptive about the way you’ve spoken about AI is. I mean, my feeling is you cannot stop a technology.
Justin Bateman 20:22
Yeah, I’m not even trying to. I hope they do it faster […].
David Duchovny 20:22
Even if it’s weaponr, you look at the history of the human race, we’ve never invented a weapon that we didn’t use.
Justin Bateman 20:22
That’s interesting.
David Duchovny 20:22
We don’t do it. Eventually. it’s going to happen. Whether or not AI is this thing that’s going to destroy human life, I personally think that’s a bullshit kind of a. A fear that they’re throwing at us because I don’t see it, but what I’ve seen you talking about, what I’ve read about is the general – the chatGPT, the generative of the script. Feeding it, Justine Bateman’s writing, and then saying, “Give me a script about two characters of meet in a pet store in the style of Justine Bateman”, now I’ve got this cute little romcom here and now. So you’re saying, “How do I compensate Justine Bateman for her style, for her previous work that’s gone into the mulch in this chatGPT thing?” And that’s a great question. I don’t know how to answer it, but that is the question. Because chatGPT and all this AI stuff has been educatedusing our experience. So, how do we compensate? And we don’t know at this point, because they’ve put everything in there. It’s already educated.
Justin Bateman 22:32
No, the answer is super easy.
David Duchovny 22:34
Oh, it is good.
Justin Bateman 22:35
It’s super easy, but they’re not going to do it.
David Duchovny 22:38
What’s the answer?
Justin Bateman 22:39
It’s just that. Look generative AI is absolute 100% (100% theft) Wholesale theft, it’s the biggest violation of copyright violation in the history of the copyright office in the United States. Absolutely, 100% unless they are. For people that don’t know, it’s something like a blender – the AI models. Like you said earlier, ifyou want to write a book, you just put in as many examples of books as you possibly you like. Every bookyou can think of.
David Duchovny 23:16
Yeah.
Justin Bateman 23:17
Then, why you give it a prompt sort of a Frankenstein spoonful of what you’ve put into the blender. Like said, a romcom about bananas or whatever. As provided, you’ve given the model information about bananas and romcoms, it’ll give you this Frankenstein spoonful of it. Well, what you put into the blender?Didn’t ask any, unless that model is fed only the programmers or the CEOs of these AI companies – only their journals, home movies, and photos. You want to do that? Then great, but you can’t train a model with a small subset like that. It has to be with absolutely as much as possible. The whole do it and (I forget the term). Like, go ahead and break rules and apologize later, whatever phrases. But this is bullshit. Like you just said, everybody’s blood, sweat, tears and IPS.
David Duchovny 24:19
Yeah.
Justin Bateman 24:19
Then, for anybody who says, IPS should just go away, I’m like, “Well, why don’t we all just”.
David Duchovny 24:26
Let’s make all property.
Justin Bateman 24:28
Yeah, I’ll just live at your house and drive your cars. Just have this sort of free for alL socialist structure and what you have is the tragedy commons, where were like, “There’s nobody’s making anything then.
David Duchovny 24:57
Right.
Justin Bateman 24:58
Because why should anybody? These two phones that I made, I’m not put them up online. I may have to buy for my selves. But, beyond that, why should I?
David Duchovny 24:58
Because you want people to see them.
Justin Bateman 24:59
Want them to see them, but I don’t want them to be AI father. I’m just one small component. I’m just onefilmmaker, but it’s offensive and these tech bros are like, repulsive to me […]. I have a computer science degree.
David Duchovny 25:22
I know science degree.
Justin Bateman 25:25
I think programmers are fantastic and there’s such a genuine love of programming that software engineers have, it’s really kind of wonderful. But these tech bros, to me – it’s another category. They’re the carpet baggers. They’re just powered, they seem to be powered by greed, and that’s it. How does this benefit anybody? It doesn’t. You want to sell our product, Slice and Dice to this much larger audienceof non-artists.
David Duchovny 26:04
Yeah.
Justin Bateman 26:05
And make them pretend that they’re artists.
David Duchovny 26:07
Well, this gets into the tricky part for me. I think, I agree with you and I want to talk about computer science as well, because you seem to be perfectly suited to talk to both sides. You can talk to the artists, and you can talk to the programmers. I think we should listen to what you’re saying, because you have those two brains. I cannot do math. It’s just amazing to me that you went back to school at your 40s and talk about the failure of homework and shit like that. Having to go back into that and I’d love to hear about that. But, most technology, most disruptive technology, is making things easier and more cheaply.My grandfather was a barrel maker. It’s called a cooper. World War One happened, he went at the age of 18, and was wounded three times. He fought with the Scottish army (the British Army). When he got back home in 1918, barrel making was automated. It was one of the things that war often drives technological innovation. He had nothing to do the rest of his life. So, he was a casualty of advancement, of how do we make things better and more cheaply? But that again, the great mass of people wants their barrels cheap. My grandfather is a one person casualty.
Justin Bateman 27:43
Yeah.
David Duchovny 27:43
But, the world gets the benefit of cheap barrels or whatever. I think that the argument what AI is going to make is, we have to pay Justine a lot of money to write that script. Then we’re going to have to charge you a lot of money to see that movie, because we paid Justine a lot of money and all those actors. We’re going to make it cheaper this way. We’re going to do it. You like these middle eastern rugs that are handcrafted, but I’ve got something that you can’t really tell the difference that was made by a machine. I’m going to charge you 1/10 of what you would charge here. So, I think I see that’s the argument that those tech bros might make is like, “Hey, we’re just making it cheaper for people to enjoy”.
Justin Bateman 28:30
They’re not, though.
David Duchovny 28:31
I know.
Justin Bateman 28:32
They’re making it cheaper, not financially cheaper – creatively cheaper for someone to feel like an artist. That’s really what it is.
David Duchovny 28:45
You think people really want to feel like an artist? That’s a dream of people?
Justin Bateman 28:52
Yeah. I think it’s that. And also it taps at a heavy resentment that some people have. A resentment or a confusion about how.
David Duchovny 29:05
Creativity works.
Justin Bateman 29:06
Yeah, how artists come up with anything.
David Duchovny 29:08
It was a great line in the Dylan movie where he says, “You know, when people ask me, How did I write that song? All I hear is, How come I didn’t write that song”. I think this goes back to something you were alluding to, but hadn’t gotten into about different kinds of stories or different kinds of filmmaking that you see coming up. Think about the disruptions of technology and art in art, most obviously photography. I grew up. I thought I was a painter. I paint things as they are. I paint these beautiful landscapes. You’ve got a photograph of the damn thing, that’s what it looks like.
Justin Bateman 29:52
Yeah.
David Duchovny 29:52
Not that. What do I do? What am I going to do now? I’ve trained as a painter. This is my life. It’s reductive to say, “Okay, here comes modern art we’re no longer showing the world as it is.
Justin Bateman 30:08
Right.
David Duchovny 30:09
We’re showing more of an interior unconscious but, it’s got to be a response to photography in some way of going like, “Fuck it. I can’t compete with that computer”.
Justin Bateman 30:21
A friend brought that up to me, and I don’t remember in the line of art history.
David Duchovny 30:27
I don’t know either. I could be speaking out my ass.
Justin Bateman 30:30
No. But my friend, Paige brought that the arrival of photography allowed for impressionist. Again, I don’thave timing wise. I don’t know that I’m exactly, with the introduction of photography and when impressionistic art, dada art, or cubism.
David Duchovny 30:56
Surrealism.
David Duchovny 31:04
Right? And we could say, this is a net good. We could say, “Oh, wonderful that now we have this whole other style of art that was.
Justin Bateman 31:07
And surrealism. I don’t know if I have that timing right with photography, but it didn’t exist before photography.
Justin Bateman 31:12
In a few years, I think we will be able to, but I think the problem right now is that we can see the individuals who are perpetrating this.
David Duchovny 31:24
Yeah.
Justin Bateman 31:24
For no motivation but greed. I mean, I want all these. As much as I know, this has to happen in order for this all to be destroyed, so that we can have finally, a new genre in the arts. Because we really haven’t had a new genre in the arts since the 90s of any real significance.
David Duchovny 31:44
What was the new genre in the 90s? Websites?
Justin Bateman 31:46
Well, if you think about it in film thats rise of the independent film world.
David Duchovny 31:54
Yeah. But I think it’s more the 60s – French avant garde.
Justin Bateman 31:58
True.
David Duchovny 31:59
Coming to America, then.
Justin Bateman 32:00
Grunge music?
David Duchovny 32:01
Yeah. No, I’m sure. I don’t mean to put you on the spot.
Justin Bateman 32:05
No, ot at all.
David Duchovny 32:06
Whatever.
Justin Bateman 32:06
No, I welcome it. But, relative to that. Even saying, like, “Okay, that was a revisit”.
David Duchovny 32:13
Yes.
Justin Bateman 32:14
But, even relative to that.
David Duchovny 32:16
Right.
Justin Bateman 32:16
What’s happened since 2000?
David Duchovny 32:19
A lot of nostalgia.
Justin Bateman 32:20
Oh my god, like refried beans. All day.
David Duchovny 32:24
The Marvel Universe and this stuff. I can’t comprehend, but I’d even go through. In terms of acting, you’ve got stage actors – and all of a sudden, now film comes in, and it totally revolutionizes the way actors act, because it’s no longer the Yiddish at theater or opera. You’ve got to use this fucking body andvoice and that’s all, I’m not getting any help. I’ve got to reach the back seats.
Justin Bateman 32:53
Yeah.
David Duchovny 32:54
They got to feel me. And now, I’ve got this camera in my face. I mean, I’ve just got to feel it.
Justin Bateman 32:59
Barely move.
David Duchovny 33:00
I’m gonna feel if I move, I’m out of frame. Then you’ve got silent movies become talkies and then you hear these stories about these wonderful silent actors who didn’t have great voices or who had Eastern European accents then they could not translate. So, there’s often these kind of leaps, these technologicalleaps that force you into different areas.
Justin Bateman 33:23
Yeah.
David Duchovny 33:24
I was wondering, when you said, “I’ve got this vision of things changing”. I’m not on the internet, but I hear about Tiktok and I’ve seen the Tiktok stuff, and being involved in music. I know that songs have basically changed from the form that we grew up in which is like – intro verse, second verse, chorus, thirdverse, chorus, outro, just the way rock was. Songs are now all hooks. It’s like, if you don’t give the hook in the beginning of the song, you’re fucked because people aren’t going to be hanging around for the chorus.
Justin Bateman 34:06
So, it’s like the end of the second act in a film that you’ve ever seen?
David Duchovny 34:08
Exactly and that’s what Tiktok probably is, in a way. So, I wonder narratively, because I’m like a narrative guy. I love a good story. That’s where my heart is. I grew up in it. I was educated in it. I feel it. I desire it. I want it. I’m probably not going to change. I’m not going to be satisfied by looking at Tiktok all day. I might be diverted, but I won’t be satisfied. So, I belong to a time that maybe is in the past or whatever, or maybe an art form that is dying, or a way of narrative storytelling that is dying. I wonder, when I look at your films, that’s not a narrative, you know? And I’m impressed, because I know you come from the same cultural education. You come from the same narrative need. To sit there in the dark and watch people go through shit and go through with them. Yet, you’re moving away in those two movies anyway, and even in your books which are not narratives, they’re more like meditations. I do think you are looking at a different way of storytelling that is driven little bit by the disruptive technology that we’ve been witnessing.
Justin Bateman 35:25
Yeah, Just growing up everything, I was always more interested in films that brought me into, I think it’s fascinating that you could watch a film that’ll bring you into a whole (I don’t mean a world like world building), this is ridiculous. I mean you, you’re being brought into beyond time travel. You’re traveling intoan experience. You’re like experience traveling like eight and a half. I watch eight and a half and be brought into this kind of experience that Fellini made with music, camera movements, these actors, and this attitude, and what was going on at the time in Italy. The attitude then and pull me, I’m fucking there.Every time I see the film, it’s this capsule you can go in. And have this complete experience, and it’s always there. You can always open it up and go in and have that experience.
David Duchovny 36:44
And it’s immersive.
Justin Bateman 36:45
It is immersive experience.
David Duchovny 36:47
But, the way now, see immersive film is like, we beat you over the head until you’re immersed.
Justin Bateman 36:52
It’s lame or you gotta VR. I knew VR wasn’t gonna go anywhere, because it makes people feel nauseous. Also, you don’t know what’s going on around you. The thing is we’re humans, we’re not going. Evolution doesn’t move that quickly, we’re not all suddenly going to be into this. I don’t really think that all these people watching Tiktok don’t want story like you said.
David Duchovny 36:53
I hope not, I still want to make them.
Justin Bateman 36:53
Something in humans that really want that […].
David Duchovny 36:53
Well, what you make me think is, everybody’s terrified that AI is going to become human, that way and destroy us. For me, I’m looking at it as like, “No, I think we’re asking the wrong question”. I think AI is making humans more mechanistic, you know? To me, that’s really the problem. We are becoming more programmable, in a way. We are desiring things that computers might desire as information or input.
Justin Bateman 36:53
That’s good. Like an effort to make sure we’re quote, not left behind.
David Duchovny 36:53
Yeah.
Justin Bateman 36:53
On leading edge of technology. I mean, I think technology is just like a while ago, and you could say this about journalism too. They just ran out of things to do. They ran out of problems to fix. Like you think about, PayPal. What were we doing before PayPal? […] You want to order something, a catalog? We were calling. First of all, before the websites, right? We were calling.
David Duchovny 36:53
It’s all ease to it. They didn’t figure out how to solve the problems.
Justin Bateman 36:53
But, there was a problem once, once we were ordering on websites after we were doing the 800 numbers. We’re ordering on websites, and every time you want to order something, you were putting in your credit card and address information every single time.
David Duchovny 36:53
Right.
Justin Bateman 36:53
When PayPal cameras like, “Oh, this is a good solution. I just hit the PayPal thing and it goes through”. There were a lot of things that.
David Duchovny 36:53
But, it’s ease again. It’s all ease. It’s not a new thing.
Justin Bateman 36:53
I think they ran out.
David Duchovny 36:53
Yes, I agree with you.
Justin Bateman 36:56
And they didn’t want to do the hard shit, like, “How do you get all the plastics out of the ocean? Or how do you this idea […]? They just went, “Oh my god, what low hanging stuff can we go for now?”
David Duchovny 39:18
Well, taxis.
Justin Bateman 39:19
Taxis?
David Duchovny 39:21
Yeah, Uber.
Justin Bateman 39:22
Uber? Sure?
David Duchovny 39:23
Airbnb. I mean, these are things that work really well and I would say, “Yeah, it makes life easier but at what expense”. How much easier is your life, ultimately at the expense of these kinds of successes?
Justin Bateman 39:37
Then talking about ease. A lot of these AI companies are trying to sell you on this learned helplessness.
David Duchovny 39:47
Yeah.
Justin Bateman 39:47
Sell you on.
David Duchovny 39:48
Ease is not a goal.
Justin Bateman 39:51
Everybody seems to be fine. This is the old thing in advertising, you know. You have to show that your product solves a problem. If there is not currently a problem, you better create one.
David Duchovny 40:02
We aren’t picked.
David Duchovny 40:03
Yeah, you relax.
Justin Bateman 40:03
I think it’s very fucked up. And it’s like, “Oh, I’m sorry, did you lose your job? We’ll get you UBI”. I’m thinking, you think people are depressed and anxious now. Now you’re going to say like, “Oh, don’t worry. You’re not going to need any jobs. We’ll just hand you some money anyway”. First of all, you’re going to let the government’s be then in charge whether or not you have enough money for rent or your mortgage or anything like that. Then you’re going to take away people’s sense of purpose at all, even if they’re at a job they hate. There’s still something about doing work in exchange for money struggle. They’re usually just thinking it is.
Justin Bateman 40:03
To me, I think it’s really kind of sick. It’s this, “Shh, you can’t do that. You can’t write your own email. You can’t make up your own night. Bedtime story for your daughter”. Come on. Let us do it. Lay down.
David Duchovny 40:57
What you’re saying makes total sense to me, because what I talk about the original impetus for this whole conversation and for Fail Better.
Justin Bateman 41:04
Yeah.
David Duchovny 41:06
Failure is a spiritual exercise. You know, failure is a religious exercise. Failure is human. That is what we do most of the time. If you’re talking about companies that are telling you don’t need to struggle anymore, it’s going to be easy. We’re going to make it easy for you. You won’t have to fail because I have the answer. “Oh, my memory fails me. I don’t remember who directed that movie”. “Oh, here”. There it is. Okay, I got it. I’m not embarrassed. I don’t have to study some more. I don’t have to refresh my memory. I don’t have to learn because this thing has the answer. And learning is hard. Learning is a process of failure.
Justin Bateman 41:45
Yeah.
David Duchovny 41:46
Because you have to to master something. You’ve got to fail 1000s and 1000s of times. I think what you’re saying is, “Even if you’re in a job that you hate, you’re engaged in that struggle”.
Justin Bateman 41:58
Here’s a theory I’ve got. I think I could do a good essay. I think I could find enough evidence to support this. Generative AI is a kind of, I know people have ideas about this term about to use, but think of it just in an academic sense. It’s a kind of antichrist, because it’s trying to replace how people are to relate to God. It will always be there for you. It will always give you the answer. Whatever you need, it will give it to you.
David Duchovny 42:59
So when you start out, this is very similar to my question about you starting out with the movie, Feel. When you start out with face, you’re not. What I don’t see you saying is, “Hey, fuck you male, straight, white male, patriarchy, you’re making me feel bad about getting older”, but you’re saying “I’m feeling bad some. Something is making me feel bad about getting older or I’m working something out here. Let me try to work this out”.
Justin Bateman 46:48
Well, with that one and also with fame, I had issues when my fame was descending, and people would say.
David Duchovny 47:00
Reacting anymore?
Justin Bateman 47:02
Yeah, back when I was acting. Yeah, of course I am. So, I had to get at that. So, those two books were hours I had worked it out.
David Duchovny 47:13
So you said “Worked it out”.
Justin Bateman 47:15
Yeah.
David Duchovny 47:17
In a way, I’m trying to kind of guide it to this area around failure.
Justin Bateman 47:25
Sure.
David Duchovny 47:26
No, which may or may not be germane to anything. But, I’m thinking that you’re feeling, “Let’s go with fame”. You’re feeling, there’s a sense of failure around not being as famous as you are.
Justin Bateman 47:42
For sure.
David Duchovny 47:42
How do you unpack that nonsense?
Justin Bateman 47:46
Well, for me, I had to get at why did that because this is a while ago right where I was still acting. Yeah, I’d ask myself, “Why did that bother me?”, that’s exactly the thoughts that came up exactly where “Were that about failure?” “Oh, I feel like an absolute failure”. It’s interesting to think about. Then I go into the book, the idea that you were given this fame, and then you fucked it all up. Would you do? You dropped it. You broke it as if it was really fame. You have no control over it whatsoever. You really don’t, even people who try to manipulate it, you can’t. It doesn’t work that way.
David Duchovny 48:36
It’s become brand now. People turn their fame into a brand, which is to me, is hideous.
Justin Bateman 48:42
Yeah.
David Duchovny 48:44
But, people are so fascinated with fame.
Justin Bateman 48:47
I think because it’s like love. They’re like, “Oh, it’s similar to love”. When somebody wants to be famous is because they want to be provided for? They want the money that comes with they assume comes with the fame.
David Duchovny 49:11
Did you want to be famous? I don’t think you did.
Justin Bateman 49:13
No, never.
David Duchovny 49:14
You had just started acting.
Justin Bateman 49:16
This is why I think people are fascinated with fame, with people who have fame.
David Duchovny 49:20
Yeah.
Justin Bateman 49:20
Because they assume all these things. They assume that you’re being provided for. You assume you have lots of money. They assume that everybody loves you. They assume you can do anything you want.
David Duchovny 49:30
It’s easy.
Justin Bateman 49:31
Yeah, you get all these offers for all of these jobs. You all these opportunities. You get to.
David Duchovny 49:38
To meet other famous people.
Justin Bateman 49:39
You know, Candy Land […]. They just assume and everything is easy, and you’re good looking too. I think people wanting that is a fear that they’ll be forgotten.
David Duchovny 49:52
Yes right? Or inconsequential life. They all will be an […].
Justin Bateman 49:58
Yeah. I think one once you accept that, nobody’s gonna remember you, it’s very freeing. I mean, we’re in the business and we can go down. So, we should know everybody that’s on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, right? All those stars. We only know like a quarter of them. Yet, those people were famous enoughor had enough money to buy a star. At some point, even they are (we don’t know who they are).But, it’s very freeing. Instead of spending all your time trying to maintain your brand. Like, “Why are you spending all the time doing that?” Like, “Don’t worry, it’s not going to outlive you”.
David Duchovny 50:37
Yes. But also for me, it’s like (I worry about sounding egotistical, but fuck it). I had all these experiences. I was given a great education. I read a lot of great books. I saw a lot of great movies, I met great actors and directors. I learned so much, and I also got to work on arts in that way. All that stuff is soil, I want to grow stuff out of that soil. When I’m part of it, when I’m gone part of it is, I kind of do want to leave behind a record of how I saw things. I don’t mind doing that.
Justin Bateman 51:25
Yeah, that’s what you’re called to do. Like, that’s your task.
David Duchovny 51:31
Yeah.
Justin Bateman 51:33
I mean, you tell me. I don’t think it’s because you want to be famous.
David Duchovny 51:40
No. The only way I looked at fame was like, “Oh, that makes that stuff easier for me to do”.
Justin Bateman 51:44
Yeah.
David Duchovny 51:45
Like, “Oh, you’ll give me this money to go do that, because I’m famous at this moment”.
Justin Bateman 51:48
Yeah that’s true.
David Duchovny 51:49
That’s kind of a tail wagging the dog business that can really get you into trouble. This quote where he said, “If something pushes my buttons, I want to get to what is the fear beneath that?. What’s your personal fear that’s making you susceptible to these things? What life was like when fame was descending for me?”.
Justin Bateman 52:12
Yeah, that was an interesting experience I had to. But you know, you’re talking about failure in Feel Better.
David Duchovny 52:22
Yeah.
Justin Bateman 52:24
To me, failure is truly the situation (whatever the situation is). Came about exactly the way it’s supposed to. So me, assuming it’s a failure is really just my expectation didn’t match the glorious result.
David Duchovny 52:46
Right.
Justin Bateman 52:46
That’s all. It just didn’t match.
David Duchovny 52:51
That’s good.
Justin Bateman 52:52
Here’s a fit. Okay, so I did this film, “Violet”, right?
David Duchovny 52:55
Yeah.
Justin Bateman 52:55
Wrote, direct and produced with Olivia Munn Justin Theroux, and it didn’t get any nomination. In the end, it got a couple of something. It’s hard for me to be totally objective of it, but I thought it was really different, fresh and new and profound. Creatively, really beautiful.
David Duchovny 53:17
When you sat there and you watched right before you went to film festivals, you had the movie finished.You sat there and you watched, and you were like, “That’s something close to what I meant to be doing”.
Justin Bateman 53:30
Oh, yeah. If somebody else had done it and I’d seen it, I would have been really jealous.
David Duchovny 53:35
Oh, good.
Justin Bateman 53:36
But, it didn’t get any nominations for anything.
David Duchovny 53:40
Yeah.
Justin Bateman 53:40
Like, I said, “With the exception of a couple of small things”. I was like, “Okay, that feels like a kind of failure, right?”. You know, even I’m not saying Oscars, Gotham Awards, something.
David Duchovny 53:55
Or make some money.
Justin Bateman 54:00
Well, with my theory that it’s really just my (this went exactly the way it’s supposed to).
David Duchovny 54:08
Yeah.
Justin Bateman 54:08
And my expectations didn’t match this glorious result. What I realized in writing about that and what’s my fear or my fear that (forget what it was), but I’m sure it was something like, “People wouldn’t take me seriously”. I want to be taken seriously as a filmmaker and this is gonna (whatever it was). I thought, “Okay. If this was designed, God looked at this situation and said you were, “The best outcome would be here. If she doesn’t get any nominations at all – no wins, no nominations”. I thought, “Okay, if God loves me, why would he say that’s the best outcome possible.
David Duchovny 54:48
Like struggle.
Justin Bateman 54:50
What I realized is, “No this makes me”. Also, I’d been through the whole awards campaigns myself, and I know how much money I’ve seen the menus now of how much it costs to get so really, it’s a marketing award if you can afford to play the game.
David Duchovny 55:08
Which is why I love the Golden Globes, because they’re just crazy.
Justin Bateman 55:12
Right? They had to like, Jack the craziness out. But I realized, like, “Oh, in having this experience and then doing the journaling and stuff, and figuring out what my issue was with it”. I went, “No, this is great”. Now, I really actually don’t ever want a nomination or a win in anything as a filmmaker. In that feeling then, I will be exempt from ever trying to make a film that I think will get an award or a nomination. Thatcreatively is an enormous freedom.
David Duchovny 55:51
Wow.
Justin Bateman 55:51
So, that’s what I got from that. That’s an example of, like “Something that looks like a failure, but hold on”.
David Duchovny 55:57
Let me get the moment where you get into the crouch, right?
Justin Bateman 56:03
Oh, totally. I was like, “No, I know I was faithful to what this film needed to be. But why then, is this my result?”.
David Duchovny 56:10
Yeah.
Justin Bateman 56:11
Out there in the world.
David Duchovny 56:12
Who do I blame?
Justin Bateman 56:13
Well, like I said, I’m so used to the, “What is it? Why is it affecting me like this right now? Why aren’t I just going, so what?” Then trying to dig up that, because I don’t want to feel like that again.
David Duchovny 56:29
Have you had that experience with your children? Because kids fail all the time, and you’ve got to somehow get them to that point that you’re at, but you can’t do it for them. You can’t say, “Fuck those people. They don’t know how great you are”.
Justin Bateman 56:44
But you still try to say that to them?
David Duchovny 56:48
Yeah, because you don’t want them to suffer, even though you know suffering is probably the best thing. Not eternal suffering, but just struggle through the failure.
Justin Bateman 56:56
Yeah.
David Duchovny 56:57
It’s so hard to watch your kids struggle. For me, it was very hard.
Justin Bateman 57:04
Yeah, to have to go learn it themselves.
David Duchovny 57:06
Yeah.
Justin Bateman 57:07
But, you know the empirical experiences. To find out empirically, that’s such and such is true or not?
David Duchovny 57:21
Yeah?
Justin Bateman 57:21
Is what really drives it into a person, I think.
David Duchovny 57:24
Right.
Justin Bateman 57:25
To have the experience that,. For me to say, “Don’t pull that curtain. There’s something behind it […]. It’ll do something bad to you and you believe it, then someday you go.
David Duchovny 57:38
Right.
Justin Bateman 57:38
I don’t care what the results are, I just have to find out to then see that was a lie. That then plants in you and makes you more fearless vs somebody telling you, “Oh, don’t worry there’s nothing behind there”. I don’t know, there’s something about experiencing it. So, I understand them having to find out themselvesor having to hear it from someone else. And you’re like, “I’ve been telling you that for years”.
David Duchovny 58:00
Exactly.
Justin Bateman 58:01
But we did it too, right?
David Duchovny 58:04
I can’t remember. I remember as a kid, I had this really weird moment with my dad, where I swam competitively when I was really young. I guess they just always assumed I would win. And I came home from a swim meet. My dad was laying on the couch, Sunday – laying on the couch. He said, “How was it?” I said, “I came in third”, and he laughed, he thought I was lying. I remember it to this day. Because somehow I got the message like, “Oh my god, I’m in a really dangerous position”. I’ve set up my life so that nobody believes if I don’t win. Hey, I gotta win all the time or else I won’t be, Otherwise, I’m joking.
Justin Bateman 58:57
It’s interesting, right? You’re born like, “You don’t really know”.
David Duchovny 59:00
No.
Justin Bateman 59:00
You don’t really know. You don’t know what’s a value. You know that you have a need to survive when you’re a child. I mean, imagine or let’s say – just as an adult, you step into some society that’s completelydifferent, and you have to learn, “Oh, what do they value?” Then we then, because we want tobe part of that society. We have this mimetic desire. We will desire what they’re desiring and we count that as important.
David Duchovny 59:27
Now, we’re in a club.
Justin Bateman 59:28
Yeah, and the shame of it is now, kids are just side note. Kids are now looking around what do adults value? “Oh, they value influencers or quantitative value of people on social media”, And they’re like, “Okay, then I’ll be like that. I’ll do videos too, and all this”. And I’m like, “Oh my god”. Also, just being watched.
David Duchovny 59:52
Yeah.
Justin Bateman 59:52
Just being watched or surveilling yourself, surveilling others. I don’t think it’s possible for a human to evolve properly if they’re always being watched. We know from experience of having been watched in a time when there was not surveillance on everybody. Only on those that were famous. We remember howor at least, I felt that I couldn’t experiment with going forward as a person in my own personal whenI was in public.
David Duchovny 1:00:31
Being watched, yeah.
Justin Bateman 1:00:32
But, now everyone was doing that to themselves. I know I’ve kind of taken it off.
David Duchovny 1:00:37
It’s the end of your book.
Justin Bateman 1:00:39
Yeah.
David Duchovny 1:00:41
It’s the end of face, where you basically ive a rundown of the shit you’ve done.
Justin Bateman 1:00:49
Oh, in the end of fame? Yeah? No, you’re right. It is face.
David Duchovny 1:00:53
Yes […]. I had all right experiences.
Justin Bateman 1:00:59
Yeah.
David Duchovny 1:01:00
I have life.
Justin Bateman 1:01:01
Skiing, going and dancing at clubs, laughing and going on boats.
David Duchovny 1:01:06
Yeah.
Justin Bateman 1:01:09
Crying and being upset and being confused.
David Duchovny 1:01:12
There’s the idea of what Botox does?
Justin Bateman 1:01:16
Yeah.
David Duchovny 1:01:17
It paralyzes you. Do you to be paralyzed?
Justin Bateman 1:01:21
Well, that’s the big like, paint whatever you want, imagine whatever you want on me. I let me be a blank slate for you. It’s the ultimate people pleasing when you think about it.
David Duchovny 1:01:32
To paralyze your face? Yeah.
Justin Bateman 1:01:34
Because you’re saying, “Project whatever you want on me, I’m not going to look at you”. I mean, when some people are talking and I’m thinking, like, “Are you fucking kidding me?” Like you can do that with your slight eyebrow, right? But, if you don’t want anyone to know what you’re thinking, paralyze your face.
David Duchovny 1:01:55
What insanity for an actor to do that then?
Justin Bateman 1:01:58
Yeah, especially as you get older because I think when you’re younger, your face is full of fat and moisture and everything, so it’s a little harder.
David Duchovny 1:02:11
Less expressive.
Justin Bateman 1:02:12
It’s less expressive. As you get older, because the skin is looser, you don’t have to move your face out as much at all to get certain expressions across. So, it’s a real asset as you get older for an actor. Yeah, I agree for […].
David Duchovny 1:02:30
I was always attracted to the deadpan. You know, the Buster Keaton and all that stuff. To be able to somehow do it the slightest something. But, Abraham Lincoln said, I think he’ll be interested in this quote, because he was famously ugly. People said, this guy’s ugly. We see pictures of him now, he doesn’t strike me as particularly horrible looking. But I guess, he was awkward.
Justin Bateman 1:02:58
Yeah.
David Duchovny 1:03:00
He said, “No man is responsible for his face before 40, and every man is responsible for his face after 40”. It’s kind of what you said in the book. It’s like “You want to talk about my face. Well, this is why my face is the way it is, and I’m taking responsibility for it, because I live”.
Justin Bateman 1:03:21
I kind of disagree with him.
David Duchovny 1:03:25
I do.
Justin Bateman 1:03:26
Also, we’re talking about a time where it was 40, you’re going to die soon? I think it’s more […].
David Duchovny 1:03:36
I think what he means is like your character comes out.
Justin Bateman 1:03:40
That’s true, right? But, I do think as far as like, how your face is going to age. Sure, you smoked all your life, that will probably affect it. If you stay, if you were outside, you’ll see evidence.
David Duchovny 1:03:53
It was more of a character thing for him.
Justin Bateman 1:03:55
But really, like the way my face changed. I mean, part of the reason why I would never get plastic surgery is […]. I mean, yes. All those things, okay – the snow, skiing, all of those things. But also, it’s impossible not to acknowledge that this is the way God wants my face to go too.
David Duchovny 1:04:23
You speak of God in a amorphous sense or do you speak of it in an institutional sense? Jewish, Christian.
Justin Bateman 1:04:34
Here’s my pal. Okay, here’s my pal.
David Duchovny 1:04:39
I started pivoting to what I call stupid questions because I started to lean into this – being a good student in this podcast and I don’t want to do that, because it’s just repeating shit that I’ve done before. You know, I want to get an A at this or be successful at it. Somebody say, “Oh, he’s really good at that all the stuff we’ve been talking about”.e
Justin Bateman 1:05:00
Yeah.
David Duchovny 1:05:01
Then I was like, “Well, there’s like Socrates, he says he doesn’t know anything and he’s the smartest guy ever”. So it’s like, “Can there be a value in stupid questions?”. So, I’ve written down some stupid.
Justin Bateman 1:05:15
I’m curious what you think is a stupid question.
David Duchovny 1:05:17
I’ve got a lot of them, but if I could have maybe five more minutes because you don’t have to get deeply. Is there female failure?
Justin Bateman 1:05:26
Versus male?
David Duchovny 1:05:27
Yeah.
Justin Bateman 1:05:28
Yeah. Sure.
David Duchovny 1:05:29
Okay.
Justin Bateman 1:05:30
Oh, this is just what yes or no question?
David Duchovny 1:05:31
No. I mean, I don’t know if you’re inspired to.
Justin Bateman 1:05:34
No. I think what men see as failure, what women see as failures is pretty interesting. I think there’s a big difference.
David Duchovny 1:05:43
Yeah. Could you wrap it up in 30 seconds?
Justin Bateman 1:05:47
Yeah. No.
David Duchovny 1:05:56
Is old failure different from young failure? Failure as an older person as opposed to a younger person?
Justin Bateman 1:06:07
Yeah, I think there’s far less for younger. I’ll say just this as an example, like when I went to school at 46 as a freshman, I don’t think brains are unable to learn later and they say you can’t teach an old dog new tricks, not at all. I think we our ego grows so accustomed to knowing in thinking we need to know the answer, and if we don’t look like we know the answer, people are going to think we’re stupid and thatwe don’t know what we’re doing and think of poorly of us. But as a child, you’re so accustomed to not knowing the answer. You’re accustomed to going into classrooms and not knowing you know algebra one, algebra two whatever the progression, and that’s normal. When we become adults, that’s not seen as normal.
David Duchovny 1:06:59
Right.
Justin Bateman 1:07:00
I think if more people just accepted that there’s a lot of things you don’t know, and walk in and go, like, “I don’t know the answer. I’d like to learn about this”. Then, I think it’d be easy to go back to college. There’s other reasons financial and time wise and all that. But, I think just as far as the brain being plastic, it is. It’s always, it’s hungry for it. It’s like a stomach wanting food. You know, you’ve done a lot of school. You’re a PhD in literature?
David Duchovny 1:07:31
No, but close.
Justin Bateman 1:07:32
Oh, you just want dissertation away from.
David Duchovny 1:07:34
Just one little dissertation book away from it. I like Zen Mind, Beginner’s Mind. What if I didn’t know anything about this thing?
Justin Bateman 1:07:43
But, I think it’s the admitting that you don’t. I think that’s where people have a problem with it, and that’swhat keeps them from learning new things, I think.
David Duchovny 1:07:57
Yeah. Is there failure?
Justin Bateman 1:08:00
Maybe that’s a “to a person”.
Justin Bateman 1:08:03
To me, Failure would be if I don’t go in the direction I know I’m supposed to be on. That’s absolute, total failure. Or if I know what the project, what a film needs to be, or a book needs to be, or something – and I don’t do it like I can’t even, that just feels awful.
David Duchovny 1:08:03
Yes.
David Duchovny 1:08:27
Yeah and you know it.
Justin Bateman 1:08:28
You do, don’t you?
David Duchovny 1:08:29
Yeah? You know it. No amount of awards is going to make that go away.
Justin Bateman 1:08:34
And you feel when you’re pulling away from it or veering off it and stuff, and it’s a really bad feeling that to me feels like failure.
David Duchovny 1:08:42
May last stupid question is, is it a window or a door?
Justin Bateman 1:08:49
I think it’s always a door.
David Duchovny 1:08:51
Okay, it’s a door?
Justin Bateman 1:08:54
It’s a door.
David Duchovny 1:08:54
Okay, that’s totally legitimate.
Justin Bateman 1:08:58
Something to move through.
David Duchovny 1:09:00
Yeah
Justin Bateman 1:09:01
I’m really excited about going forward, and I think it’s been a long time since we have as a society.
David Duchovny 1:09:11
Well, I’m excited to see what you do.
David Duchovny 1:09:13
I was just laughing about with Justine Bateman, since we’re now videoing or filming these discussions. I am reading the introductions. This is the first time I read the introduction of the person in front of the person, which is very odd, right? Kind of giving that person’s resume to their face. She had said before I read it, just don’t say that I’m an actress. And I said, “Former actress”. She said, “I was also a third grader at one point”. So, that’s how I introduced her as a former third grader. But, I think she was speaking to a deeper point, which is in her joke about being a third grader, that we all contain multitudes. We all change. We are not identified by what we do. From time to time, we can take on a label. If that’s easier to handle for other people to get a handle on us, or we can just hyphenate to infinity, as I seem to be trying to do, be doing, but that is not what you are. That is what you do.
CREDITS 1:11:01
Thanks so much for listening to Fail Better. If you haven’t yet, now is a great time to subscribe to Lemonada Premium. You’ll get bonus content, like my thoughts on conversations with guests including Alec Baldwin and Rob Lowe. Just hit the subscribe button on Apple podcasts or for all other podcast apps. Head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe. That’s lemonadapremium.com. Fail Better is production of Lemonada Media in coordination with King Baby. It is produced by Kegan Zema, AriaBracci and Dani Matias. Our engineer is Brian Castillo. Our SVP of weekly is Steve Nelson. Our VP of newcontent is Rachel Neel. Special thanks to Carl Ackerqman, Tom Karpinski, and Brad Davidson. The show is executive produced by Stephanie Wittels Wachs, Jessica Cordova Kramer and me, David Duchovny. The music is also by me and my band, the lovely Colin Lee, Pat McCusker, Mitch Stewart, Davis Rowan and Sebastian Modak. You can find us online at Lemonada Media, and you can find me at David Duchovny. Follow Fail Better wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership.
