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Which is the better franchise: the original Bachelor/Bachelorette or the spin-off, Bachelor in Paradise? Podcast host Traci Thomas loves the original franchise while radio host Mariah Smith prefers the spin-off, and they’re both here today to convince Aminatou Sow that their pick should win. Traci loves the drama and romance of the Bachelor/Bachelorette and thinks that Bachelor in Paradise always fizzles toward the end of the season. Mariah argues that Bachelor in Paradise has had more successful couples come from it and says people only go on The Bachelor/Bachelorette to end up on Paradise anyway. Ultimately, Aminatou must decide which show will receive her final rose.

Follow Traci @biTRACIal on X and Mariah @mRiah on X and @mariahmariahmariah on Instagram.

Keep up with Aminatou Sow @aminatou on Instagram and X. And stay up to date with us @LemonadaMedia on X, Facebook, and Instagram.

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Transcript

SPEAKERS

Tracy Thomas, Aminatou Sow, Mariah Smith

Aminatou Sow  00:02

I am Aminatou Sow, and I’m a writer who loves pop culture. So welcome to Pop Culture Debate Club from Lemonada, and the BBC. We bring on some of the funniest, smartest folks in the biz to go head to head over TV, music and movies that we love. And because I’m the judge, I get to choose the winner. The Bachelor and Bachelorette franchises premiered 22 and 21 years ago, respectively. Let that fully sink in, these shows can legally buy beer at the bodega. Countless roses have been doled out, and the number of contestants that have entered and exited each of these franchises spin off shows could probably populate a small city, a real life bachelor nation, if you will. Some of the relationships that were forged among the bachelor bachelorette du jour have stuck, but the majority of the couples formed on the shows weren’t built to last and have since dissolved. Today, we’re going to debate which is better, the OG bachelor bachelorette franchise or the spin off Bachelor in Paradise. Mariah Smith runs the popular Kardashian vlog, keeping up with the continuity errors, and is also a co host of the Sirius XM show, Smith sisters live. And Tracy Thomas hosts the wonderful literary podcast, The Stacks, and writes a sub stack called U

 

Aminatou Sow  01:25

Tracy, Mariah, before we go any further, are you here on Pop Culture Debate Club for the right reasons?

 

Mariah Smith  01:32

You know it.

 

Aminatou Sow  01:33

Yes, I’m excited for this journey.

 

Mariah Smith  01:36

Okay, yes, I cannot wait to take a chance on this debate.

 

Aminatou Sow  01:41

You need to love. You need to come into it with a pure heart. You know you won’t find love today. So you won’t find love or winning. Tracy, can you tell us what position you’ll be taking today in the bachelor, bachelorette universe?

 

Tracy Thomas  01:57

I will be taking the position that the original Bachelor and Bachelorette shows are superior to Bachelor in Paradise.

 

Aminatou Sow  02:06

Ooh, spicy, okay, good to know. Mariah, good luck. What series are you going to be repping today?

 

Mariah Smith  02:12

I am taking the preferred stance that Bachelor in Paradise is the icon of the bachelor bachelorette franchise.

 

Aminatou Sow  02:21

Tracy, can you give us a little context for those listeners who may not be familiar with these shows, just explain the bachelor and Bachelor in Paradise, please?

 

Tracy Thomas  02:29

Okay, yes. So the bachelor main franchise is one lead with anywhere between 25 and I guess sometimes now, like 32

 

Aminatou Sow  02:39

However, many contestants that can scrounge.

 

Tracy Thomas  02:41

As many people who want to be an influencer in a few months, and they go on and they date these multiple people of the opposite sex. They go on dates. They whittle it down. Every week there’s a rose ceremony. If you accept the rose you move on to the next week. They travel the world. They fall in love, etc. Bachelor in Paradise is a bunch of people who didn’t win on the regular show, or were leads whose relationships have broken up. They go to a beach. It’s like eight, eight and eight or something. I don’t know the actual moment, but it’s eight and eight, eight boys, eight girls, and they can date each other, and they’re hanging out at this hotel, and they sometimes go on dates off campus, but they pair up, and so they’re trying to pick a partner from a larger dating pool, but they’re also can, like, steal each other’s dates. So like, if I go out with Mariah, and then aminatu comes on, and then I’m like, oh, I’m feeling her. I’m like, oh, Mariah, I’m gonna ask Amina to out on a date if just wanted to let you know. And then we go out on a date, and then it’s right.

 

Aminatou Sow  03:41

But producer […] is whispering in both of our ears that, you know this might not be possible for like, the level of interference cannot be denied.

 

Tracy Thomas  03:51

No on either franchise.

 

Mariah Smith  03:54

So those are the two differences.

 

Aminatou Sow  03:55

Was it hard for you to pick the flagship franchise today? Or were you like, Oh, I know what I’m doing?

 

Tracy Thomas  04:02

I feel that I like the flagship franchise. Am I allowed to say why I don’t like Bachelor in Paradise? Or

 

Aminatou Sow  04:11

You didn’t talk shit. This is a debate show.

 

Tracy Thomas  04:14

Okay, so I like the franchise. I think both are problematic. But my big issue with Bachelor in Paradise is that it starts strong, but always fizzles. And they need to have a place for the couples who are really strong from like week one, like Brandon and Serena or whatever, where they just go to a honeymoon suite, and you bring on fresh blood, keep these hoes coming in. I want drama, but by the end of Bachelor in Paradise, it’s like, oh, like, at like week three, it’s like, there’s all these strong couples. I’m like, No, I need more breakups, less strong couples. So I think if you’ve been on for like two or three weeks with your same person, you’ve exchanged a bunch of roses, send them to the honeymoon suite, bring them back for the proposal. But I need the drama to continue. And so I while I like both and watch both. So let me. Like, talk too much shit about Bachelor in Paradise. I just prefer the build towards the finale on bachelor and also it’s just pure it’s pure love.

 

Mariah Smith  05:11

Can I just say, but here’s the thing you’re saying that you don’t like the way that we near the end of Bachelor in Paradise, you get the actual love connections that are meant to come out of both franchises. But I would argue that at the end of, you know, bachelor, bachelorette, it’s equally, as some could say, tame or dull or boring, because it’s less infighting between the contestants, because there are fewer of them, they’re separated. You get the long and, in my opinion, boring, hometown, hate hometown, and then you get the, you know, the only saving grace of the Fantasy Suite episodes is that you get the end of that and then if their families come to whatever tropical location they’re in, you get those conversations. But usually it’s going to fade out like the drama, because we’re finding love. And again, the key to these shows is we’re finding love. And one of my favorite facts is that there are more marriages, babies and sustainable couples that have come out of six seasons of Bachelor in Paradise than there have been of nearly 30 plus of bachelor, bachelorette.

 

Tracy Thomas  06:20

You’re right.

 

Aminatou Sow  06:20

Oh, so one person dating 45 people is not a recipe for a lasting marriage. That’s not how it works.

 

Tracy Thomas  06:28

Paradise is much more like regular dating. So it makes sense, if you have choices and options, you could be like, you’re a good fit, you’re not bachelor. Is like we picked people who wanted to be here, and then good luck to you. But do you Okay? Can I ask this? Do you care about couples staying together? Like, does that matter to you?

 

Aminatou Sow  06:49

It matters to me.

 

Tracy Thomas  06:53

Because I’m like, what I with these shows you get so invested in, like, the gestures and what they do. And I think that’s why I like paradise a lot, because they are more they have more autonomy in terms of what they how they can show their affection. They are intermingled. They’re not separated away. You know, these people can share a bunk bed if they want. They can drink all day on the beach and sleep in the sand if they want. They can say, Listen, I want to set up this date down the beach for so and so with a birthday cake if they want. There are so many things that make you so invested in these couples, and we see more of the couples on Paradise. So I’m that much more invested in them, because by the end of a franchise or a flagship show, I’ve seen maybe this couple go on two three dates at most, or interact for a couple of chats. And what’s what am I invested in? Basically nothing, but the paradise people are so invested.

 

Aminatou Sow  07:47

Wow, so Tracy, do you not is there really not an element, like, when you watch these shows of wanting, like, real romance to happen?

 

Tracy Thomas  07:55

Oh, I do. But like, when they break up, I don’t care, like, like, I’m not like, Oh my god. I can’t believe they broke up. I’m like,

 

Aminatou Sow  08:02

I can I check in on couples from 10 years ago all the time.

 

Tracy Thomas  08:05

I do follow the relationships a little bit, but I’m not, like, I’m not invested after the show. I don’t like follow up too much. Like, I find a lot of the couples to be extremely annoying after the show, because they’re all just like being influencers. And I’m not interested in like, Ashley. I can let’s like, Baby rap, or whatever. You know what I’m done.

 

Aminatou Sow  08:23

Okay, but here’s the thing, but here’s what’s like. Interesting about the evolution of the show is that people actually used to go on these shows to fall like, as delusional as it sounds, they went on the show to fall in love. Today, you go on the show, you know, I’m sure that some people are going to fall in love, but like, you come out of there with a pretty decent career, you know, like, there is a, there is a good like, fail safe, like there are so many women that have gone through the ringer of the show that nobody knows their name, nobody knows what they’re up to, what it was, just like a different time in media. And so I think that that also gives me pause a lot of times, you know, because I was like, oh, yeah, the person that I was watching this, like, 20 years ago was very naive, and today I’m like, okay, what’s capitalism doing? What’s, you know, what’s Rupert Murdoch doing? Like, what’s happening here, you know? And it is just like, very dark.

 

Tracy Thomas  09:18

Can I also say, I think that a lot of these people go on these shows, yes, to become influencers and whatnot, but many of them like, if they’re applying for a season, they don’t know who’s going to be the Bachelor or Bachelorette, so they’re essentially also going on the show to get to Paradise. Chances are, if you are watching the franchise, you’re like, Oh, I saw Nick vile, oh, I saw Brendan. I think he’s fine. He didn’t make it. That Joker gonna be on Paradise because he was popular. He was fine. He was charismatic. Get me on somebody’s season. I don’t care if I make it. Let me get to five. Have a viral moment. Boom, I’m on paradise with them too. And I think that’s what people do, and that’s how these love connections are made. Because outside. To paradise. Even so many people in the franchise are dating. That’s their dating pool. So why don’t you just do it on TV?

 

Aminatou Sow  10:07

Okay? What do you think is the X factor that separates like, an okay season in the Bachelor world, whatever franchise you’re in, what’s the X factor that separates an okay season from like, a Hall of Fame level season across the franchise,

 

Tracy Thomas  10:25

Okay, well, it does depend on the show. I think for the main show for bachelor Bachelorette, the most important thing to make an incredibly good season is to have a lead that is unpredictable. You need someone who is going to break the rules in some way, who is going to say the things that you’re not supposed to say, ask the questions they’re not supposed to ask, the person who, like Hannah be who’s gonna pick up that podium and or Caitlin Bristow, who is going to be fucking Can we say that you can? Yeah, okay, not sure. Well, either way, we you need someone like Colton, who is going to jump a literal fence, because you need the person who you just don’t know if they follow the rules. If they’re like charity Lawson, she was too she was too rule following. She just went through whatever they want. I’m gonna do. You need someone who is going to be their own best friend who is not talking to the producers, who is surprising.

 

Mariah Smith  11:25

I agree with that, and I think it is almost similar with the other ones. You need a disrupter. You need someone who’s gonna come in and use the formula and shake it up, which I know get to later. Is why paradise is so great, because it’s essentially an island full of disruptors from the, you know, anchor shows. And I think it’s people who want to have sort of a unattainable desire to find love, or like a weird desire to find love in a way that’s not going to happen on this show, and also a weird desire to promote fabfit Fun online, like it’s very much that those two things need to be merged together in the perfect play, and that’s going to create a good show.

 

Aminatou Sow  12:10

And as someone who worked in tech for a long time, hearing the word disruptor just sent like a chill down my spine, you know. So it’s my safe space. Please don’t say that ever again. Okay, let’s take a quick break.

 

Aminatou Sow  12:41

So let’s get into it. The rules of the show I already told you are very simple. It’s your mission to win me over with your argument as to why your pick today is the ultimate show within the franchise. Tracy, I’m gonna start with you if you had to persuade someone who has never seen the bachelor or the Bachelorette. What would you tell them? What would it take for them to start watching?

 

Tracy Thomas  13:07

I would tell them, do you believe in love? Do you believe in romance? Beautiful gowns, gowns. And some men in suits, gowns, beautiful gowns. Men in suits, tropical, romantic destinations around the world, horseback rides, hot tubs, Dream dates. Do you love luxury? Well, come on over and watch this show with all of those things. And I would also tell them, do you like messy, dramatic people who have have been slightly over served? Come on over. We have that too. But ultimately, what I would say is this show is the perfect low stakes escape into a simpler time when one man could date 25 women and no one would care, or one woman could date 32 men and no one would care, because ultimately they’re looking for love. It has both the pure love and the crazy drama, and also it has a lot of roses. So if you like flowers, come on in. Welcome to the bachelor franchise, the flagship, for a reason, because it is the best.

 

Aminatou Sow  14:11

Wow. Mariah, describe your fighter. If you had to explain Bachelor in Paradise for anyone who hasn’t seen it to convince them to watch. Why is this the superior show?

 

Mariah Smith  14:21

I would say this is the superior show, because it has all of what Tracy mentioned, and more. It has love, it has luxury, but it also has more modernism and current culture then the flagship franchise. If you’re fatigued by Trad white culture and the traditional gender roles that society is pushing on you, I suggest you go to Bachelor in Paradise. Also, if you’re fatigued by the amount of episodes that happen on love Island USA or love Island UK, go to Bachelor in Paradise because it’s a mini version of that with more familiar faces. And back to how Bachelor in Paradise is more modern. They had the first same sex. Engagement out of the entire franchise. So if you’re like me and you’re a progressive young woman or young man or young person, baby, get you some paradise, because it wants you.

 

Tracy Thomas  15:10

Okay, wait, but counterpoint, wow, the flagship show has had two leads who have come out as queer. So I’m just saying that on the show, they are casting […]

 

Aminatou Sow  15:20

Not on purpose. I don’t think is the problem, unbeknownst to them.

 

Tracy Thomas  15:23

Unbeknownst to everybody. I’m just saying there the queer community is represented in both places, in different ways. Now

 

Aminatou Sow  15:35

that I have background on all of your shows, I want to talk about the use of trauma dumping on this show, because it is so strategic anytime a contestant like shows all of their scars to try to woo, you know the object of their affection. Camera magic happens. Can you talk a little bit about how the trauma dump is used effectively or ineffectively in your franchise?

 

Mariah Smith  16:01

The thing is, in paradise, they don’t really use that as much, because it is either people are self electing to leave. The biggest trauma is, oh, like a Jared and Ashley, I situation where I’ve loved you for a long time, you don’t want me, and then you’re gone. But I do think, in general, a lot of the major trauma dumps that would then make the dump be become a bachelor bachelorette have turned into they’ve sort of done away with that, and now it’s like the ones who got let go politely are now the ones that are the bachelor bachelorette or the ones that had an easier edit are now the bachelor bachelorettes. So we’re going more in a direction that isn’t as heavy, which I don’t know if it’s quite working out. We’ll see.

 

Aminatou Sow  16:52

Okay, what about you, Tracy?

 

Tracy Thomas  16:54

They still be trauma dumping on the main franchise. They were telling you all about it. Um, it’s usually most effective when done on a one on one date, you do the fun part of the date, then you get to dinner and you reach out and touch their hand under the table with the food that no one eats. You said, you know, I know there’s something I’ve really been wanting to tell you. And then you cry, and you tell them about your adoption, your one leg, your mom never loved you. You were in a car accident that almost killed you. Your brother has GI issues. It could be anything. You just have to give it a high enough drama, like you. It has to be Simone Biles level dramatic difficulty. But you could really say anything. I think Jen, who’s the bachelorette now hers was like, I I’m a nurse, and I work a lot, and I was, like, traumatic. I was just getting dramatic music. It was like, I work a lot, and, like, some of my boyfriends haven’t liked my schedule, which, you know, I guess, is traumatic, like, it’s all on a scale, but definitely it’s at its most effective when done on the one I want. It is the least effective when pulled aside on a group date, that is a clear indication that you are a fucking asshole and you need to stop unless it is immediately triggered by the date itself.

 

Mariah Smith  18:11

Can I say one of the greatest sort of responses to a trauma dump was actually Rachel Lindsay season Dean, when he mentioned that his debt like he had an extremely strange relationship with his dad, and then on his hometown, his father, who he hadn’t seen in years, showed up. And I’m like that to me, was massive and insane, because he let them in on this superior trauma, but it catapulted him into one of the most popular people out of that franchise for a long time.

 

Aminatou Sow  18:41

Because it was a human it was a real human moment in in in bachelor nation, which they don’t always do. Well, okay, so this franchise is, you know, has a lot of critics, including me, um, there, you know, there’s, there’s a lot, there’s a lot wrong here. Is there anything about your show that you struggle with or that you find problematic? I mean, there’s 100 things you could pick, but like, tell me one thing that you’re like, this is not great.

 

Mariah Smith  19:06

I think for me the most, the biggest glaring one is the I think it was seasoned like three or four when there was the misconduct lawsuit between Corinne and Demario when they had allegedly, I don’t know where it ended. It did wrap up and they were able to continue filming. But like, had sex in a pool, and it was they had questions around consent, and that, even though they had to sit down with Chris, who was the host at the time, with the whole cast, and trying to explain it all, they didn’t really get to the crux of the issue that also included racism. That is a big part on the show, or racial inequity, that is a big part on the show.

 

Tracy Thomas  19:49

That’s exactly where I’d like to pick up. You mentioned Chris. Chris Harrison, former host of the show, you mentioned racism. I mean, you can’t watch the show and not I mean, well, maybe you can. I can, not YouTube, but others. No others can. None of us care. But you I cannot watch the show and not think about race and racial politics, even when the lead is a white person and all of the contestants are white.

 

Mariah Smith  20:11

And especially when the lead is a white person.

 

Tracy Thomas  20:14

Yeah, I mean, I think race is so glaringly obvious in the show. And like we were talking about earlier, about like mindless and also like the value, and like the socio sociological value of the show, and like how anything can be a teaching moment. I think the issues with race on the show are so indicative of the issues with race in America. And then, in a lot of ways, the Bachelor is one of the best shows to show you what’s going on politically in America, whether it’s race or gender norms, like when Caitlin had sex before she was supposed to, and how that became this whole thing about, how do we talk about women? How do we talk about sexual you know, independence and, like, doing what you want with your body, and consent and all of these things. And so I think, like, it’s really hard to watch the show and not also be unpacking what’s happening. I mean, I think Jen’s season right now, there’s only one Asian person in her whole cast, and she’s an Asian woman. And I think, like, that is a problem, not because she has to date an Asian person, but also, like, let’s have it be reflective of the dating pool. No matter who the lead is, there should be more than one Asian person, right? And so I think just like with casting, and just like the racial dynamics of angry black woman, like what was done to Rachel, and you know, which black contestants have been successful? And also, you know, I’m a mixed person, but what it means to have mixed people on the show, and, like, hometown dates when there’s only white moms and black dads, and like all of this stuff, I’m thinking about constantly, and trying to, like, not only think about what I think about what I think about it, but think about what someone who’s in the middle of America, who’s white, is thinking about it, and like, how they’re talking about it. And so that’s always in my brain. Like, how will this play?

 

Mariah Smith  21:52

Two things, you made great points, and I want to say how the Bachelor, Bachelorette franchise is a direct response to what’s happening politically? Like, when Matt James was the first black bachelor, bachelor in the franchise, it was on the heels of Black Lives Matter protests and George Floyd and the 2020, sort of massive racial conversation that was happening during COVID. And then you also said something earlier that Tracy about how charity won the second black Bachelorette. She sort of just played by the rules, and that’s because, as a black Bachelorette, these women and these, you know, bachelor’s bachelorettes of color are nervous to act out. Are nervous to be them full selves, because they don’t know how they’ll be perceived. And I actually was reading something about charity, who she said on Dancing with the Stars after her season of The Bachelorette, they made her basically, the edits gave her a little bit more personality, I would say, or like, some of her natural responses are talking about her scores, and she was like, she was even more eviscerated because of that, because it felt like she was bragging or being too boastful. And I’m like, There’s no way you can win as a black person on TV, and especially as someone who was put in this lead position to be kind of like the pious American sweetheart that we want to watch find love. So as a black person, person of color and these shows, you’re basically, it’s national workout freak, and Matt James said he had a horrible.

 

Tracy Thomas  23:19

None of the black leads, except for charity, are still in a relationship with the bachelor franchise charity, I think only still is because she’s still under contract. No, no. I mean, sorry, in a relationship with the franchise. Yeah, Matt has nothing to do with that. He’s still in his relationship with Rachel KKK Canal, but I know, but he is not in a relationship with ABC.

 

Aminatou Sow  23:40

I know, but can I say this is gonna be really unpopular? But again, I was like, I like people who are like, we need diversity. We need more people of color on The Bachelor. And I’m like, no, we don’t like I need people of color to have more sense than to want to go on The Bachelor.

 

Tracy Thomas  23:54

Yeah, yes, and it seems like a traumatic experience to be a person of color there, so.

 

Aminatou Sow  23:58

I never want it for us. I’m never happy when when one of us is on these shows, because I’m like, no.

 

Tracy Thomas  24:07

Can I just add one thing? You asked, What makes a season good? And I said, unpredictability. But I want to just add to that. I actually think what makes a season good is white nonsense. I don’t want to think about the racial trauma that Matt James is going through or charity, feeling like she can’t be herself because she has to play by the rules, because all that’s weighing down on her. I just want to see Hannah be be white and talk to Luke, who is full of white nonsense. And I want Tyler to be hot white nonsense. And I want white non agreed to me that is a joy. It is a great season. Leave me alone. Let me laugh at you. I do not want to think about me.

 

Aminatou Sow  24:43

We love white nonsense. Let’s take a quick break.

 

Aminatou Sow  25:00

Welcome back to the lightning round. Let’s go. Mariah, what would be your opening credit pose?

 

Mariah Smith  25:09

My opening credit pose for batch to learn Paradise would be me chugging two bottles of tequila at the same time.

 

Aminatou Sow  25:17

I would marry you on the spot. Tracy, what would your first line be after you stepped out of the limo for the first time?

 

Tracy Thomas  25:24

Hi, my name is Tracy. It’s so nice to meet you. Mariah, I’m trying to win.

 

Aminatou Sow  25:30

I’m not here to make friends, and I’m trying to win. Mariah, what would your drink order be from wells?

 

Mariah Smith  25:38

It would be a double shot of Casamigos, cold.

 

Aminatou Sow  25:41

Wow, where’s the casamigo sponsorship? Tracy, can you describe the face you would make after one of those terrible, forced musical performances by a hot band on the rise that you were forced to listen to on these shows?

 

Tracy Thomas  25:55

The face I would make would be, I’m doing it. Would be moving eyebrows and a little smiling, but also tense, tense mouth, tight, a tight smile and popping eyebrows.

 

Aminatou Sow  26:13

Your mouth, he looks very tense. No, that’s a really good description. Okay, this question is for both of you, but Mariah, you’ll go first. What’s your stance on Golden bachelor?

 

Mariah Smith  26:23

My stance on the golden Bachelor is that it was a great sort of way to get us to the golden Bachelorette, and I think that should have been the first place to go, because I’m excited to see how that went.

 

Aminatou Sow  26:35

Wow. Tracy, what’s your stance on the golden bachelor?

 

Tracy Thomas  26:38

Totally opposite. I want nothing to do with golden Bachelorette, because I don’t want to be around 25 old, white Boomer dudes saying inappropriate things about women and making chummy, weird jokes. I don’t want I kind of need to see it. I do. I would not watch it, but I don’t need.

 

Aminatou Sow  26:58

Dramaturgically. It would make sense for me. I would need to see it. Okay, this question is also for both of you, so many hot tubs in this like, I want to know the incidence of like, Listeria on the show, but so both, both of these shows have an interesting way of just manifesting hot tubs in the strangest places. Tracy, what’s your dream hot tub location?

 

Tracy Thomas  27:20

Ooh, I would love a hot tub and an indoor hot tub with a large, large windows looking out at like Jackson Hole, very icy cold. I’m inside in a hot tub with a big library of books behind me and lots of tea and just it, just indoor cat. Beautiful view. I can read, he can tell me he’s in it for the right reasons, and I can drink my tea and be cozy and hot.

 

Aminatou Sow  27:47

What about you, Mariah, what’s your dream hot tub location?

 

Mariah Smith  27:50

Mine actually is also indoors, and it would be in the middle of a custom, beautifully made closet filled with all of my favorite designer items. So then it would also end in a shopping spree.

 

Aminatou Sow  28:03

I am screaming, that’s very good. Okay, no explanation needed. But Tracy, Fantasy Suite or boom, boom room. Which do you prefer?

 

Tracy Thomas  28:13

Fantasy Suite.

 

Aminatou Sow  28:14

Mariah, Fantasy Suite versus boom, boom room. Okay, Fantasy Suite. We love it, and last question, Tracy, what do you think is the most memorable group date?

 

Tracy Thomas  28:23

Memorable, but in a bad way, is when they do those therapy group dates and they have to talk about their trauma with like Nick vial, therapist, it is hell on earth.

 

Aminatou Sow  28:35

What about you, Mariah? What’s the most memorable group date?

 

Mariah Smith  28:38

Oh, my God, the first one that’s coming to me is when they for some reason, they had to play basketball on Raven season because whoever was the basketball guest, like the NBA player, they had made zero sense, and they just wanted to get another black man on the screen.

 

Aminatou Sow  28:55

Wow. Okay, I just want to say I’m about to declare a winner, but this has been the most enlightening conversation. It’s been really fun. I enjoy both of you greatly, and it really breaks my heart to have to choose a fave because, you know, like, I can’t wait till they do bachelor nation polyamory. It needs to happen. That’s where we’re going. Okay, so this is, this is the last part of the show. You have 30 uninterrupted seconds to state your case as to which is better, the OG bachelor, bachelorette franchise or the spin off Bachelor in Paradise. Who wants to go first? 30 seconds state your case.

 

Mariah Smith  29:35

I’ll go first. All right, Bachelor in Paradise is the superior franchise. Because even though we were questioning earlier, is it about which one’s more entertaining or which one is has the most love couples come out of the franchise? I believe it’s more entertaining to watch a show where you know this chaos is going to lead to love. This chaos is going to lead to lead to three babies like Jaden Tanner. It’s going to lead to wedding specials on the beach where these people met. It. It’s going to lead to Ashley i and Jared reconnecting at a Bachelor in Paradise couples wedding, and then getting married themselves after not being able to make it on Bachelor in Paradise. And guess what? It gets greater later. And if they thought they had the secret sauce with Bachelor and Bachelorette, they wouldn’t have made a spin off where it’s actually doing more good for the franchise. I don’t even need the full 30 seconds, because it speaks for itself. It has love, it has entertainment, has it all, and it has a level up.

 

Aminatou Sow  30:29

Okay, Tracy, your turn state, your final case.

 

Tracy Thomas  30:34

Okay, Bachelor, main franchise is the best because it is the tried and true. It has stood the test of time. It has taken us from the early aughts to where we are now. It has, not only does it have true love at the center of it, but it also has the gowns we’ve talked about. It has the money, the finances upon it. They are traveling. They’re going to beautiful, far off places. They’re getting hot tubs everywhere, right? They are bringing people together. And as far as entertainment goes, the shows get better with time. We’re falling in love. We get real drama. We’re fighting for our love. We’re fighting against each other. It is thrilling. People are crazy. They are drinking. They are embarrassing themselves. They are giving us white nonsense. But in the end, we are getting a beautiful view. We are getting one final rose, and we are asking the question, do you accept this rose? Thank you.

 

Aminatou Sow  31:25

Oh, my God, this is the hardest episode we’ve ever done. It’s the hardest one. It’s the hardest one. I walked in here with an idea of what love was, of what I wanted, how I want to be loved, but my heart is going in a different direction. You know, this is I, I’m surprised. I’m not gonna, I’m not going to make it painful, but I will say that I’m going to pick Bachelor in Paradise, and I am surprised. I am surprised no one is more surprised than me. No one is more surprised than me. I’m going to tell you what it was that did it for me. The reason that I love watching Bachelor. Love is strong. The reason I watch Bachelor and Bachelorette Tracy is it’s that thing that you said. I think that it is such an eye into what is happening in America. And like, I’ve learned more about whiteness and the heterosexuality and just how white America does life, especially, like in real America, like, that’s the show that does it for me. But here’s the thing, they’ve been doing it for so long. These producers are so lazy, they’re not evolving. It’s just, I’m like, heterosexual love is hell. It’s just, a hell, and it is in shambles, even, like, the idea of the hometown date, you know, like the, like, the idea that you cannot come from a family where you’re divorced, or you, you know you have lost someone in your life, or you are, you know that it’s so, like, intense, this idea that, like, in order to find love, you have to come from an intact, good family with a good job, and then, you know, Like, that’s kind of how you you glom onto whatever. It’s so retro. It is so awful. The racial politics are awful. It’s not to say that they’re better in vouchuan Paradise, but I just, you know, I’m like, I’ve seen what the voucher can do. I’ve seen like, 30 whatever seasons of what it does. And I’m like, I think we as a people need to move on. And the producers, Chloe, have moved on. And Bachelor in Paradise, for as messy as it is, to me, I was like, this is just a more realistic take on how people date. Like you are, paired off, you are, you know, like you see, you see someone. You like it, you take it, you whatever. It feels more democratic, in a way. And also I was like, thank you. More people. Have a shot at love here. There is something so greedy about being like, oh, we are gonna follow one person and they’re gonna date like 50 people to see what happens. And I was like, no, give me these messy children any day. And it’s, I don’t know this is really, this has really surprised me, but I will just say that as a whole, that like, Kamala Harris’s job, the first thing she has to do when she gets into office is to ban this franchise. I was like, it’s like a 100 days, like initiative. I was like, this, it’s bad for the country and it’s bad for morale, like, we can.

 

Tracy Thomas  34:17

Better not talk about that, because I would not be popular in some of those sweet states. It’s gotta be a secret agenda.

 

Aminatou Sow  34:23

Yeah, it’s gotta be a secret mission. No, she can’t say anything, but the minute she gets into office, she’s like, Executive Order Number one, she’s like, this, like, ABC is going down, save up. Okay, so that’s my hot take. I love that. You’re both, like, intellectuals who love trash. That’s my, you know? That’s my, like, real sweet spot. So thank you so much for joining us today.

 

CREDITS  34:44

You can catch Mariah Smith on her SiriusXM show, Smith sisters live, and Tracy Thomas on her podcast, The Stacks and there’s more Pop Culture Debate Club with Lemonada Premium. Subscribers get access to exclusive bonus content, like even more bachelor nation talk from the super fun conversation with Tracy and Mariah. Subscribe now in Apple podcasts. Pop Culture Debate Club is a production of Lemonada and the BBC.  I’m Aminatou Sow the show is produced by me, Joanna Solotaroff, Kryssy Pease, Lamar Wood and Dani Matias. Our mix is by Noah Smith. Rachel Neel is VP of new content. Our SVP of weekly content is Steve Nelson. Commissioning editor for the BBC is Rhian Roberts. Executive Producers are Stephanie Wittels Wachs and Jessica Cordova Kramer.  Follow Pop Culture Debate Club, wherever you get your podcasts.