Beast Mode

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This week, the girls are having some deep realizations and tackling shame together…with a little help from Brené Brown obv. June discovers she’s one of the only female representations of volume eaters and Jess shares her secret shame about being on her BEAST behavior. Then, in the midst of reminiscing about their favorite childhood places to eat with family (many of which are run by the mafia), June shares some life-changing news. Remember Deep Divers, there’s power in recognizing your tank is empty, so turn off your camera and go beast mode.

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June Diane Raphael, Jessica St. Clair

Jessica St. Clair  00:10

Hi, I’m Jessica St. Clair.


June Diane Raphael  00:12

And I’m June Diane Raphael.


Jessica St. Clair  00:14

And this is The Deep Dive.


Jessica St. Clair  00:17

We’re about to do what women have done for centuries, we’re crowded around the fire with our generous hunches. We got babies hanging off our tips, and we’re going to share with you our fears, our joys, our tips on how to stay alive.


June Diane Raphael  00:32

Now, just we’re heating a call that no one has made.


Jessica St. Clair  00:37

Not a soul.


June Diane Raphael  00:37

But you’re invited to listen.


Jessica St. Clair  00:39

Absolutely, because we make one promise and one promise only, we will not Google a thing because frankly, we’re too damn tired. Please get ready to go on The Deep Dive.


June Diane Raphael  00:57

Hi, Jessica.


Jessica St. Clair  00:59



June Diane Raphael  01:01



Jessica St. Clair  01:02

I have to get real with you. I have to get serious right away.


June Diane Raphael  01:06

Oh, God, I thought we were gonna do some like bits and bobs. Okay, what’s up, Doc?


Jessica St. Clair  01:13

Well, I would love to just hear more about your eating because that’s really what this. Major development has happened. And I want a major update we should make a segment and put some music around, because I had a revelation about it, but that’s just a that’s going to be a plug for later in this episode.


June Diane Raphael  01:33

Okay, okay.


Jessica St. Clair  01:34

And I do want to touch just so you know, my cuz I have AHI I can’t remember. But I do want to touch on the fact that Deep Divers are, especially in the academy, but also I want to hear from everybody. They are DMing me their emergency. They are calling it the break in case of emergency meal. And there’s real developments. So everybody go on over to my stories. I’m going to just be posted. I mean, there’s people, people DMing me Momofuku dried noodles. You know, Birdseye she pants, like there’s things there for us to help us. That we aren’t taking advantage of. Okay, so but.


Jessica St. Clair  01:34

I know I’m not allowed to talk about my food yet but okay, go on. Go on.


Jessica St. Clair  01:45

Now just remember with get it over with once we go into what I’ve tried to we ain’t going back.


June Diane Raphael  02:26

Okay, understood. Last couple quick findings. One of my best friends from you know, I have a group of like, Yeah, six of us total. Best Friends sixth grade on everybody. A lot of our Deep Divers know them. This is this is one of my dearest Kira. Did I’m sure arrives this weekend. You’ve never met Kira? Okay. Kira arrives this weekend, we’re going to see the brand new Corolla concert. I saw Josh there. That’s a whole other story. I’ll talk about that concert later on. Thank you for giving me the floor. Because I just know we have to get it out of the way. But the Kira brought something up to me and I have never related and understood myself in the way that she described both herself and me. And she said, we’re talking about foods talking about and she said June. We’re volume meters. And I said.


Jessica St. Clair  03:27

What is that?


June Diane Raphael  03:28

I don’t know what you mean. But I but yes.


Jessica St. Clair  03:30

What does that mean?


June Diane Raphael  03:31

I just know those two words belong together comes to me and food. Essentially what she was saying is like if we can only eat a little we don’t want it.


Jessica St. Clair  03:41

I see.


June Diane Raphael  03:42

Okay, we need volume when it comes to food. So people who are like, oh, I’ll just have a little portion. I’ll have a snack here and there. Like that doesn’t work for us.


Jessica St. Clair  03:54

That’s me. I am. If I can be eating all the time, things in my mouth all the time, but not a whole lot of it. The tapas like if you go to tapas, that’s good tapas. And I love a tapas.


June Diane Raphael  04:11

I told her I said do you feel dread when people say let’s do family style? And she said yes. They said I do too, because of our volume, you know, how much we need. And it’s a very large portrait. It’s a very.


Jessica St. Clair  04:31

Wild, okay.


June Diane Raphael  04:32

Okay. So once I sort of identified that I’ve now just never felt so seen. And I’m like, are you sometimes uncomfortable with the fact that you’re at a meal and you’re eating more than everybody else? And she said yes. And I said.


Jessica St. Clair  04:46

Interesting. You’re noticing, I’m never noticing what everybody’s putting away.


June Diane Raphael  04:51

I notice, I’m not noticing what others are really putting away I just know that I’m definitely putting away more and it was really wonderful. To connect with another volume meter and find my definity with another volume meter because she said she was like you know if if someone says I’m gonna have a salad like I might be able to have a salad, and I’m like fine if it’s healthy food but it better be a bucket of it. Oh my god bucket.


Jessica St. Clair  05:20

You know who’s a volume eater you knows who is the hamburglar he eats 20 right? Or in olive oil and Popeye the one who, why why not have a hamburger today when I can have one on Tuesday or whatever his whole thing they are? grimace is probably a volume meter.You know who else is a volume meter? Animal, the Muppet animal. You know, he has to get, got to get it in and got to get a lot of it. Mr. Peepers, volume meter.


June Diane Raphael  05:54

These are men, which I’m just noting. Okay, I know. There’s not a lot of representation of female volume eaters out there. And I would like to say to all of my other volume meters rise up, let us be seen let’s come out of the shadows. We are volume. You know who you are. Okay, you know who you are. And, you know, I made a major, so I knew Kira was coming in and she was coming in late. And I said, you said before you even understood her to be a volume eater. I think somewhere in my mind. I knew it. And I said I did get you a salad. Her flight was delayed because she didn’t land on my house till after 11pm, and I said I think it’s enough volume and it was barely but I knew the amount of volume.


Jessica St. Clair  06:43

Before bed like she’s gonna eat that and then fall right to sleep. Like that’s.


June Diane Raphael  06:47

I said to her, like , do you also like if you know, you got a big meal coming? Are you kind of in hibernation until that meal is coming so that you can get your volume? And she said yes, I said me too.


Jessica St. Clair  07:05

And I’ve never in my life thought that way never in one second of my life if I thought oh, there’s a big meal coming I better scale back here like never I would never in my life never.


June Diane Raphael  07:17

Eating three sensible portions is so outside of my understanding. And this isn’t to say like we like good food, but of course we want it to taste good when you know but at the same time, we also prioritize volume.


Jessica St. Clair  07:36

I wouldn’t say, well, you know what’s interesting, my grandma’s St. Clare, who’s definitely on my light team. She always left a little bit on her plate. And that was because she grew up food scarce there was a feeling that she needed to put aside a portion.


June Diane Raphael  07:57

For who?


Jessica St. Clair  07:59

For later.


June Diane Raphael  08:02

I feel that’s a part of my psychology of being a volume eater is like having some you know foods. Not scarcity.


Jessica St. Clair  08:12

Anxiety like winner.


June Diane Raphael  08:13

Yeah, like I don’t know why we only ever had saltines and diet coke like I don’t know. But so I feel the opposite which is like lots of times I was hungry and so I anyway I just like volume so just wanted to report that and I want to talk about one specific thing I ate.


Jessica St. Clair  08:36

I’m like saying so weighed down by this.


June Diane Raphael  08:40

Yes, what and then it will be through it. So Kira I grew up in a town where there is a bakery that’s been there since we were born. I’m not going to name it kind of wanna name.


Jessica St. Clair  08:52

Italian? Italian?


June Diane Raphael  08:54

Called Front Street Bakery, rifle center. Now they have a crumb cake there that I can’t describe like people say food brings them to another place like this to me is every Sunday morning after church we’re going to get blacks and whites we’re going to get Crumb Cake. My parents having a book club over or the Gaelic society or some sort of a group you’re getting shake cakes. We’re getting crumb cakes. We’re getting it maybe even a sheet of Crumb Cake. The Crumb Cake from this establishment Kira brought with her cuz she knew how much I knew. She flew with it. Okay, that’s a friend. That’s a friend.


Jessica St. Clair  09:39

Well that’s a volume meter friend because again that she thought like, I’ve got to transport this food.


June Diane Raphael  09:47

This shit of Crumb Cake. So, so glad she did. She did say I’m bringing some treats from from Front Street but she didn’t say that she was bringing Crumb Cake and that and I have never to this day It’s like you sometimes grieve things that you can’t even really remember. And so I haven’t had this in so long that I realized once I took a bite of it that I have been searching for this texture of Crumb Cake my whole life.


Jessica St. Clair  10:15

Like this is like that SNL sketch with those NPR food ladies I forget which ones. Yeah, I but.


June Diane Raphael  10:25

Never found it because it’s not it they don’t know what else makes it like this. It’s so moist. It’s the tedium.


Jessica St. Clair  10:33

Perfect Yeah, it’s the taste of childhood for you too.


June Diane Raphael  10:37

It is but I did offer to several people who are at my house this weekend to just say like, I know this, this is a sentimental spot in my heart but please fucking take this. Taste this and tell me this isn’t and they were like this is the best crumb cake I’ve ever had. So I do yes, there’s an association but it is the best crumb cake that has ever been made.


Jessica St. Clair  10:57

Wow, well, I’m so glad.


June Diane Raphael  10:58

That’s my food for the week.


Jessica St. Clair  11:00

I’m so glad you named Front Street bakery actually, because, you know Kelly dead best friend Kelly. That was her job at the New York Times was to seek out mom and pops, beach shops, bakeries, whatever and then write a review of them. They were always positive it was like a glowing reviews. And then she would make these places explode some of them what.


June Diane Raphael  11:26

I’m actually see here to name it is because it’s already first of all this the type of business like they were always closed on like a Wednesday at five because like they take their own hours because they can’t even handle the lines. I mean, you’d have to wait on line for this shit. Like, they don’t need any. In fact, I’m worried about what I’ve just done.


Jessica St. Clair  11:47

Let them close the doors. But I will also say and then maybe I never move on to my dark topics. But I will also say that in towns in New Jersey and Long Island, there are certain families that own these establishments. For us, it was Ferrara’s and Mama Ferrara was always in a black skirt and a red V neck gigantic boobs that like never ended or day. And we went there every Friday night but Ferraro’s they were the they must have been billionaires. Right? They must and they grew like, but also turned their entire backyard into a vegetable garden. So I was like, what’s happening? There are people in New Jersey and Long Island sitting on money that you don’t even know.


June Diane Raphael  12:35

Because French street was a cash only business for many, many years.


Jessica St. Clair  12:39

So like, yeah, yeah. Also the place that we used to go that killed me because my dad, I knew because my, one of my best friends Mike was a waiter there, but I knew that the owner was in and out of jail, you know, for the mafia in and out in and out. He’s sometimes he’s there at the front. Sometimes he’s not okay. Sometimes he’s away, as they say. And sometimes he would call from jail. And whoever was answering like if it was Mike, and he was an Irish kid, but he’d be like, Oh, Tony. Like he’d only you know, this is you only got five minutes or something to send out the message is who was going to get hit and win and you better? Or it would be Mike. I was concerned. Yeah, god dammit did my dad had to small talk with every fucking waiter. And he’d be like, where’s Tony? I’m a dad, shut the fuck up.


June Diane Raphael  13:35

Yeah, don’t ask any questions about him.


Jessica St. Clair  13:38

And like one done one night he got he asked too many questions. And I said we can’t come back. Like the waiter disappeared. And we never saw him again. Don’t ask we’re Tony his dad.


June Diane Raphael  13:52

Yeah, he’s a memory don’t totally never happen.


Jessica St. Clair  13:55

Or you will never happen. But I miss that I miss living amongst the mafia and Luminos and the in the family businesses and not knowing what the bottom line is. But knowing that, you know, the pasta.


June Diane Raphael  14:09

We can’t ever put a credit card down.


Jessica St. Clair  14:11

You can’t you just can’t but you can bring your bottle of wine, you know, from home. And that’s important.


June Diane Raphael  14:18

That’s right.


Jessica St. Clair  14:19

They never bothered to get a liquor license. Ask yourself why. […] Because that’s where restaurants make their money. So you ask yourself why they don’t have a liquor license. Or don’t but don’t ask it out loud because you will end up dead. Bless it, bless it. Oh my god, so I miss it, I miss the East Coast in that way.


June Diane Raphael  14:42

I’m gonna say one thing to you and then we’re gonna move on but it’s related to to what we’re just talking. Okay. You don’t know this and I wanted to tell you on the air.


Jessica St. Clair  14:51

You have a dog.


June Diane Raphael  14:53

I have a foster dog right now.


Jessica St. Clair  14:55

Why wouldn’t you tell me this? Why wouldn’t you tell me, fucking June.


June Diane Raphael  14:59

First of all it wasn’t that Crumb Cake fuck you for that you were you weren’t you didn’t taste the crumb cake this weekend. Didn’t get to meet Kira. Well first of all, you didn’t get to meet Kira and Kira was here for 24 hours truly. But we she came to see Brenda Carlos.


June Diane Raphael  15:00

Who cares what’s okay? Can you get sky printed on the camera?


June Diane Raphael  15:20

I can say the only thing I can say is this. We got to keep things quiet. Because because this dog is in the witness protection program.


Jessica St. Clair  15:33

What are you talking about?


June Diane Raphael  15:36

I’m not kidding.


Jessica St. Clair  15:36

No, no, what are you talking about?


June Diane Raphael  15:38

I can’t say her name. I can’t post a picture of her. This dog had to be had to leave a certain state and come you have to get out of state or No, I’m talking rhymes and riddles and stuff. But she had to get out of the state. She was over bred a lot of things happened to her and I even feel like I’ve said too much could I just know for a second? Well, I don’t know where she just went. But she’s been here for a week and a half and we are absolutely in love with her.


Jessica St. Clair  16:04

How does she not told me that, I feel so angry.


June Diane Raphael  16:08

I was excited to tell you.


Jessica St. Clair  16:11

This is one of the biggest betrayal.


June Diane Raphael  16:12

Don’t be mad at me. Don’t be mad.


Jessica St. Clair  16:13

I’m trying not to but.


June Diane Raphael  16:15

I know, I know, because I actually felt like I didn’t want people to get too attached to her. We’re already in a picadillo where we’re all in love with her. So we’re already dealing with that. And also, I have genuinely made a promise to myself to really keep quiet about her because she is someone is looking for her.


Jessica St. Clair  16:34

I don’t Okay.


June Diane Raphael  16:36

That’s what I’m saying. There are things about this situation that have to be kept quiet. I will not be saying her name you will not be seeing, you will be seeing her but I can unfortunately Deep Divers. I cannot post any pictures of her.


Jessica St. Clair  16:48

Ever. Like will she always remain a secret?


June Diane Raphael  16:51

I don’t know.


Jessica St. Clair  16:53

Okay, first of all, I love that, it’s a she. You can’t get the same energy. You can’t.


June Diane Raphael  17:01

It’s gotta be a different, different energy. I know.


Jessica St. Clair  17:06

How old is she?


June Diane Raphael  17:07

No idea.


Jessica St. Clair  17:08

Is she sprightly?


June Diane Raphael  17:11

Yes, but she’s had like an a crazy amount of liters. So she was overbred. You know, but I don’t know she does have a lot of energy and yet she also is very calm. I’ve never seen this, this type of personality on anyone, let alone an animal. Well, obviously, she’s really.


Jessica St. Clair  17:35

Like if I’m not there this afternoon, you’ll see me tomorrow morning. Like Knock knock.


June Diane Raphael  17:39

She’s very special. Very very special.


June Diane Raphael  18:03

It’s a crazy situation that I’ve gotten us involved in. And I am keeping her under wraps. For the time being. But she is a dream.


Jessica St. Clair  18:18

Oh, it just you have to get you have to have a dog energy. You gotta have it. You gotta have it. It’s like helping your serotonin right? Everything’s did her and everything’s lifted. Life is not worth living. Without a dog.


June Diane Raphael  18:32

I don’t disagree. I don’t disagree. Sorry, Jess, on to you. I feel like I had to get that on a go.


Jessica St. Clair  18:37

I’m just glad. No, I’m actually really glad you gave me this, this bump. Here’s where I’m at. I’m feeling a tremendous amount of shame. Why? Well, you know, we spoke last week about my state of overwhelm. And I, you know, I think I could have seen this coming. But when I get overwhelmed. The story I tell myself is I’m all alone and no one can help me and I become like the beast in Beauty and the Beast. I’m you know, I rip tapestries. I break candelabras you know emotionally I’m just really the opposite. Whatever the opposite of my best self is that’s where that’s where I am. It says it indeed is a tale truly as old as time. And I have been feeling over the last couple of days as the fog lifted and the deadline passed. And I was like, Oh, um, I am so ashamed of how just nasty and hurtful and just ashamed of myself. So I was in Paper Source as I as I want to do on a weekend, and I picked up Brené Brown’s book Atlas of the heart. And I said, Brené gotta have something about shame, and here that can help me. And of course she did. Now Brene I listened.


Jessica St. Clair  18:48

She really speaks on shame. Oof.


Jessica St. Clair  20:23

So what I just wanted to share with you a little bit about it. So she basically has studied shame. And basically nobody wants to study it. Nobody even wants to study it. That’s how horrible it is.


June Diane Raphael  20:37

It’s so shameful.


Jessica St. Clair  20:38

Okay, so she goes through the difference between guilt and shame, but basically shame. The definition of shame that has emerged from her research is shame is the intensely painful feeling or experience of believing that we are flawed and therefore unworthy of love, belonging, and connection? Shame thrives on secrecy, silence and judgment. If you put shame into a petri dish and douse it with these three things, it will grow exponentially into every corner and crevice of our lives. So that’s why I want to share it here. Because I didn’t want to share it, but I thought, no, fuck it, I just want to I want to get out that I’m feeling shameful. And I’m working through it. And shame also stops you from taking action to repair, to learn guilt is actually okay, guilt means I did something bad not I am bad. And that’s the difference. But I think it’s interesting, just what we hide in the shadows, about deeply when you feel just, there are parts of you that are deeply unlovable, and that makes you act that way. Do you know what I mean? It makes you it gives your thinking it and so you create that scenario so that you are all alone. You know, a Tasmanian devil, which I’ve often related myself to. Not the cartoon one. But the real Tasmanian devil. If you Google it Yeah, the live action version live action. Yeah. When they get into their little den, they’ll bite your your fingers to the bone. One of the nastiest they’ll get you and they’ll get you good if they’re threatened.


June Diane Raphael  22:37

See this part of you which is so glad you’re I know you’re I’m so glad you’re bringing it to the forefront because all I see is you as this ray of light that’s like it even thought yesterday think because we had a conversation we’re planning some exciting stuff for the academy and I thought, you must be so overwhelmed right now like is this the right time to do this is the right you know, but it felt like you were charging ahead you know and.


Jessica St. Clair  23:05

Right now I’m okay the fog’s clear now.


June Diane Raphael  23:08

So what can you go back for?


June Diane Raphael  23:11

What happens is, too much has happened is going on, because I’ve taken it on you Oh, we are not victims to our lives. We decide to bring it in. So I say because I’m wanting to be a good person. Because deep down I’m the beast. I say I’ll take it I’ll take it. I’ll take it no, let me and then I get can resentful like God dammit, you believe I have to do all this by myself. And then like I’m then I up but I’ve not asked, have not asked for help. But also I’ve brought it on myself. And so it’s just this conundrum where the story is. If I asked for help, it won’t come. And so I’m mad even though I haven’t asked for it. I don’t even ask for it. Because I’m just like, I just won’t, I won’t I won’t be there. But that’s the opposite. I think is hard. I think people think asking for help is like Oh, of course you should ask for help. But sometimes the trains running like I mean, I remember talking to you about this with with the tournament’s right a deep dive fish session pickleball tournaments last and you know, we did one in May we do one in February and I got into a shame spiral, which I really had to process with you afterward. Because I wasn’t happy with some things that happened and my my reaction and etc. And I was also like, you can get to a certain place with overwhelm where it’s like, it’s not as simple as asking for help, because to delegate certain things after the ball is so far down the court, it’s like it’s doesn’t make sense anymore. It’s prevention you’re supposed to ask and what I think is so frustrating for people who love me is they’ll say like, hey, hey, I think it’s just too much. And I’ll just be like, I hear that as a criticism this, you can’t do this. And then I mask I’m like, no, no, I’m fine. I’m hiding it. I’m hiding that I’m not working out. I’m hiding that I’m waking up before. I’m hiding it from everybody. Thinking like, like, I remember when I was in my 20s, and even in college, I didn’t want people living with me. Because I’m like, if you see how I can, like, work too hard and put too much on me, myself, like, you won’t want to be around that. Like Brandy would be like, why are we living together? I would live with like, heinous people just to like, be like, like, you don’t know, you’ll hate me. If you live with me. It will break us, like you and Casey living together. I’m like, wow, like in your 20s. Like, I should have been living with Brandy, like, by the way, like, she keeps a house. I mean, she keeps a house. She just does. She loves to clean a bathroom. She would have happily done that. But I was like, no, if you live with a Tasmanian devil, you may get your fingers bit off to the bone. And I love you too much.


June Diane Raphael  26:19

Wow, what’s going on over there Jess?


Jessica St. Clair  26:22

I just it’s it’s, it’s time.


June Diane Raphael  26:26

I mean, listen, I’ve shared today first of all, to this podcast is we are I just I’ve shared that I’m a volume meter. You know, if you lived with me, you’d see that. So I do understand, like, there are things about the way that we encounter our lives that we’ve deemed shameful that we’ve deemed like unlovable. But they you know, I wish I could , right it’s like, and also they really aren’t, and I make it’s so interesting, Jess, because I feel you put out so much energy to the world, you know, to the world.


Jessica St. Clair  27:08

What is that leave a husk? Sometimes, because the you gotta you gotta keep some back and really not doing anyone a favor. Um, so yeah, I just wanted to say that I just wanted to say out loud, you know, I’m the beast. And I wanted to say it, because I know that you love my beast-like-self.


June Diane Raphael  27:34

I mean again, I’ve said that I’m a volume eater and you compared me to animal that hamburglar and I accept. I am too Jess.


Jessica St. Clair  27:44

I know, and we all are beasts. We are, we all are beasts. And maybe if I could start talking more about my, my beast like self, I would be less of one.


June Diane Raphael  28:02

Listen, I welcome I welcome her into this space. You know, I do.


Jessica St. Clair  28:07

I know you do. I know you do. But also like, you don’t have to live with the beast.


June Diane Raphael  28:15

I know. I know. And here’s something that I think is very particularly like Irish Catholic that I’ve seen, some family members do and you know, that I grew up around, which is the world gets everything from us. And our family members get the least. And that is a particular like the gregarious charming twinkling personality that the world gets. We can come home and give none of that. And I think it is such a balance, right. Like I you know, we were on a zoom yesterday and I was really proud of myself because I stayed off camera because I had to energy wise. Yeah, and I didn’t apologize for it or to be quite honest. Explain it.


Jessica St. Clair  29:15

No, but I did. I know.


June Diane Raphael  29:17

I know. And I want to talk to you about it afterwards because you don’t have to Jess, I was so worried that the people on that call would be worried that we weren’t like liking their ideas because they couldn’t see like my perpetual like Don Rickles esque smile encouraging them like you know and it’s like that’s not Yeah, it’s not even like yeah, your family members get the least of it but but also the person who gets really the least is you is you. But I say this not because you know I fall into what you’re describing so much. I deeply relate to it. One of the reasons why sometimes and I’ve I need phone calls instead of zoom I’m just because I don’t like the I love looking at you, but you’re one of the only faces that honestly really like gives me energy. And otherwise, like I do find I can get really depleted.


Jessica St. Clair  30:14

Why are we always having to stare at one another all day,


June Diane Raphael  30:19

We don’t, the number of times, I just now either don’t turn on the camera and I turn everybody else off too. So if I have to look at a slide, I’ll pull it up and look at the side. But I’m not looking at anyone. I know I’m fine with voices, we work in fucking audio, I’m fine, I can listen to a voice. I don’t like to see people because it requires a different level of energy than I have. And in this time and the energy reserves we have as we’re being barraged with fucking world war three over here. And everything else. It’s like we have to conserve, conserve, conserve, and put it where it belongs. So I just want to say that to you, because I want you to know, you don’t. And I know you’re writing a book about small talk, but you don’t have to give of yourself if it’s taking something from you. I told you Oliver Platt saw me like told me that get quiet during the filming of year one, when he saw me wildly giving out my energy to every single person I could find, to feel comfortable in the space. And he told me to sit down and get quiet. And it was such a fucking lesson because I’m like, I know my energy is incredibly powerful. And I know I can make people feel great. And I can know I can make people feel really badly. really badly. Because I got that beast in me too. I do. We all do.


Jessica St. Clair  31:55

We all do. I mean, I think maybe some people don’t.


June Diane Raphael  31:58

I think we all do. And I think we all spend a lot of time masking it. And I think the more we were to say to each other like I love your monster self, and I welcome her, the less she feels the need to like roar about you know, I think it’s a powerful global lesson like the more we can honor grief and sadness and say like, this is what it is, I’m not pretending it’s another way the better we would all be, you know, we but most people cannot sit in it. And I think that so much is required specifically of women in the way that we show up and that’s why I firmly believe in women turning their goddamn cameras off. Because the more we are required to be seen and to give of ourselves over and over and over again. All throughout the day, we have to show up shelter. It’s like the further away we can get from ourselves.


Jessica St. Clair  33:24

And you know, the other thing is, this is gonna sound crazy. But I got a, I got a planner called the productivity planner that I actually have so enjoyed using found it from a mom on on Tiktok was or an Instagram was eight children. But she breaks your day up like you used to have at school. So it’s like six to 9am is your breakfast time and then nine to 12 is your work time and then you know 12 to three is your rest, like there’s you you have to put it. I know it’s so lame. But it’s like if you don’t put that shit first, whatever cliche I was just gonna say it’s like, you know what? Monsters Inc? Like, let’s all university. Yes, we’re all a member of it, and yes, I.


June Diane Raphael  34:12

I am a student of Monsters University and The Deep Dive Academy. Place where else to teach.


Jessica St. Clair  34:17

But yeah, yeah, so the host of the co host of this podcast is a beast. And if you want to turn off, that’s okay, too, but I’m not gonna pretend I’m not, I’m a beast. And I am interested in in, in owning it and and maybe that will help me to not mask it and then ask for help when I need it before it’s too late. Before.


June Diane Raphael  34:48

I love it, I love it. I don’t know. I’m really proud of you for sharing it and I think it’s very powerful and I often feel that way you know, and uh, you know, I feel that way and I’m sorry I’m like so always so grateful for when people make space and are honest about the really terrible feelings and anger and shame because we all feel it.


Jessica St. Clair  35:13

Yeah, we do feel it. And that’s what an end Brené says in his book, like, the antidote to it is self compassion, right? Because, and also realizing and connection, reaching out and saying, I’m a beast. you’re a beast too, great, we’re both beasts now. I don’t feel so much shame because I don’t feel like it’s only me. I think that’s really where you’re like, why is everyone else seem like they can handle life? You know? Why is everyone else getting their taxes done on time? Why is everyone else able to put a sheet pan meal together and not have a nervous breakdown? And it turns out no, probably all of us are struggling and we just are hiding it from each other just like we clean up our houses when people come over. And then you’re like, why is my house so crazy? Oh, well, because their house was crazy to five minutes before you came over. So I know we’ve talked about all of this before but I yeah, I just I don’t know if any if there’s any other beasts out there listening you know, I feel you I hear you. Any other hamburglers out there you to try to burgle burgers.


June Diane Raphael  36:21

And for sure volume eaters? We are for sure. Volume eaters over here. I hear you, Jess, I hear you. Yeah, proud of you. Do you got it done. And like, this is the fucking thing. Right? Like people love to think there’s no whenever someone says to me even with I remember you said to me of a pickleball Sunday, really you’re like, we’ll just film it, it’s so easy to throw together. And I was like, well, no, it’s not like lots of times I’m yelling at my children. For my husband. Because 15 minutes before? That it’s actually not easy. None of it’s easy, it doesn’t mean it’s not worth it. It doesn’t mean I don’t want to do it doesn’t mean like but like it, if there is fucking invisible labor everywhere you go, and it takes a toll on it’s take a cost, and I also think some of us have different energy levels. I struggle with this with Paul all the time, because I live with someone who has energy for days.


Jessica St. Clair  37:18

Yeah, he’s Tigger. He’s bouncing around on that tail.


June Diane Raphael  37:22

Yeah. And I mike, I feel badly about myself, because I don’t have that same reserve. But I’m just like, starting to really come to a place where I’m like, well no, I have what I have. Might and sometimes when my tank is empty, or like, gave away everything I got, like I have got to be quiet. And by myself and restore. Women understand the value the deep, deep value of rest.


Jessica St. Clair  37:55

But yet, most of us don’t take it or do it. Right, but we know like Chuck a child like gotta get her to bed, gotta get her to bed. She’s tired, you’re tired, that’s why you’re, you know, we monitor it for everyone else. So God dammit, if you want that beast to at least be on their best behavior. You need to give them rest, and you need to do less, do less things like I have, you know, multiple projects that’s hard for me to have multiple things to work on and Dan has course been saying this for years, like then don’t write with three people in one day. It’s like no, no, Jess. I’ll go like Kyle Lenin to you. Like I end with no brain.


June Diane Raphael  38:41



Jessica St. Clair  38:44

Oh, that’s beast behavior. Because nobody knows.


June Diane Raphael  38:49



Jessica St. Clair  38:50

Yeah. Oh, yeah. That’s a beast behavior.


Jessica St. Clair  38:54

That’s beastly, it’s beastly it is.


Jessica St. Clair  38:58

And then I wonder why I have like a migraine or I’m like, How do you even do that? I feel like it’s a little bit. Nobody knows what goes on behind the beast’s Enchanted Castle. There are too many thorns to get through.


June Diane Raphael  39:15

Well, I am really, God. I just love you so much. And I love your beast self. And there’s like, you know, I relate, I relate. Yeah, there’s all quiet stuff in our homes that we’re all up to that we’re no we’re not.


Jessica St. Clair  39:33

But you know what I said today to myself, and I bring up your dog who’s in the witness protection program. It’s like if a rescue dog can be rehabilitated. Can’t I be?


June Diane Raphael  39:48

That I don’t think there’s anything wrong with you. I think you’re perfect as you are. Well, that’s just that doggy in the window.


Jessica St. Clair  39:55

Free service your dog. It’s free.


June Diane Raphael  39:58

I think you’re perfect.


Jessica St. Clair  40:01

And maybe that’s it. Maybe that’s going like, yeah, I don’t know that one’s hard. Yeah, it’s really lurking on that. That lovable self, you’re lovable no matter what you do achieve whether your dishes get done. You’re lovable anyway, that’s a really hard one.


June Diane Raphael  40:26

I know.


Jessica St. Clair  40:27

That’s a hard one.


June Diane Raphael  40:29

Someone gave me this beautiful image once which was of like imagining yourself holding yourself as a baby.


Jessica St. Clair  40:40

Like you do, Paul.


June Diane Raphael  40:44

Yes, for all of our new listeners I have admitted on this podcast that I do like to pick up my husband in the in a pool and a shallow and and carried him around. I allowed to hold him like a baby. And then I walked slowly with him through the pool and around the perimeter.


Jessica St. Clair  41:01

Did you know that the Deep Divers sent me a video that she had her friend film and she went over to her husband and the pool scooped him up. And he just happening, why are doing this?


June Diane Raphael  41:15

There is nothing more empowering and like genre bending than picking up a grown ass man. And oh, really a straight man. But try it. Just try whatever wherever you land, try it and picking him up, he’s gonna find out first, you have to kind of get your your arms wrapped around his arm so he can’t wiggle out of it. And then walking him slowly because they’ll resist but once they submit, they’ll realize how much they like.


Jessica St. Clair  41:46

But that’s your husband is your beast self.


June Diane Raphael  41:49

Yeah, that’s what you got to get up.


Jessica St. Clair  41:52

You got to get them and hold them, you know? Yeah. And say you relax now.


June Diane Raphael  42:00

At times, and you know what I, I’ve talked about this before deep divers, but my mother, my mother subscribed to something called holding time when we were younger. Again, it was it was the type of parenting that was was designed solely really for like severely mentally disabled children. But we did it. And we and we did not fall into that category. But it was it the idea was holding, holding being held is rewiring, it gives you a sense of I am, I am in my body, I am a body. I am a body in space, I begin and I end here’s where I begin and I end, and I know that I’m a body in space, and it returns you back to your body in your physical presence. And what, what I have talked to Paul about is like sometimes when I’m in beast mode, I actually can be like almost like a dog, where you got to snap them out, Cesar does it all the time, snap them out of their psychological state. I need to be held. You see me in beast mode, like see what happens if you just grab me and hold me and parade me around the pool?


Jessica St. Clair  43:18

I think we need to tell the people around us like here are the warning signs of beast mode. And this is what I might need. Because when you are a beast, you can’t you’re not aware you’re in it.


June Diane Raphael  43:33

You can’t see straight but it’s like it’s not really a problem. Let’s remember it’s really a problem.


Jessica St. Clair  43:38

There are fucking real problems. And the same is like there are it. But I know but we go into fight or flight so quickly. And we then we chase after it, which is also the what’s the worst that happens. You go to somebody hey, I couldn’t do this. I didn’t I couldn’t figure I couldn’t figure this out. I didn’t have the time. I was not in the right headspace. I’m I couldn’t do it. What’s the worst that can happen?


June Diane Raphael  44:09

And you know what I’m really about these days because I think there was a version of myself that used to do a lot of lies and rhymes and riddles and rub rub a dub about why I couldn’t do something. And I have not always but slowly been switching into like I just can’t do this today. And and that’s a full sentence actually. And I don’t need to give a fucking grown ass woman. I don’t need to explain to you why. And I can hold that that might be disappointing. But I don’t have to give away myself. I don’t owe that to anybody but myself and my children and my family. And that’s I think very powerful. And by the way, I’m saying this I rarely do this but I’m saying it sounds great, just wonderful, but I actually did do something similar because I’m packing we’re going on tour for how this can meet tomorrow. I’m packing it.


Jessica St. Clair  45:06

Can I come?


June Diane Raphael  45:07



Jessica St. Clair  45:09

Just like honestly, I’d love for you to tuck me in your little duffel. I would love it. Yeah, I sleep with the kids. You know, just like, oh, this is my nanny. She also comes on stage with us. I will give the nanny that weekend off. I’ll just come I’ll take him to the aquarium wherever you’re going.


June Diane Raphael  45:29

Well, I just said to someone I supposed to get on a call today this afternoon. And I just said I can’t do this today.


Jessica St. Clair  45:35

They don’t care.


June Diane Raphael  45:38

You don’t know how fucking relieved people are when you bail on them?


Jessica St. Clair  45:42

They’ve got 400 things to do. You’re doing them a favor.


June Diane Raphael  45:47



Jessica St. Clair  45:47

Well,  and what my boundaries expert that we interviewed Sarah Gilman who she has a great TED talk on this. But what she says about boundaries is like, you are modeling for someone else. How, they will be happy because you’re showing them this is how I do it. This is how I take care of this how you take care of yourself.


June Diane Raphael  46:08

I know and I guess I’m like, I also think that taking care of yourself is also not oversharing the why?


Jessica St. Clair  46:17

No, I Yeah. Because that might be a violation of your own personal boundaries. And I just told everybody in the world I’m a beast. I don’t care.


June Diane Raphael  46:26

But no, but you want it to and that’s awesome. I guess what I’m saying is like I it really depends. Like, if I don’t want to be on camera I want to I also don’t feel the need to explain that to anyone. I will be welcomed you I didn’t sign on to a zoom in and signed permission to like, give my face away.


Jessica St. Clair  46:47

This isn’t AI.


June Diane Raphael  46:50

I haven’t consented. So as far as I’m concerned, you send me a zoom link. I assume that’s a phone call. I will not look at you. You will not look at me. Because I won’t be on screen. But I just feel like we at a certain point we’re gonna drop our end of the rope and say, and then and then it is shocking like people people don’t really give a shit. Or they think you’re a bitch. And that’s okay too. Well, that’s definitely true beast.


Jessica St. Clair  47:22

That’s true. Like that’s high level you have a high level beast mode.


June Diane Raphael  47:26

That’s high level beast mode.


Jessica St. Clair  47:28

Well actually, I think it’s it’s what is the antidote? That was that’s like what you would you know the Hulk the antidote to the Hulk is to own what you actually want. I think that’s that’s what actually gets rid of the Beast is going like I can’t do this. I’m sorry, I can’t I’m too tired, I gotta go to bed. You should see my mother just I can’t just disappear she just disappeared 7:45 she’s asleep.


Jessica St. Clair  47:54

I love where are you? Nobody cares.


Jessica St. Clair  47:59

So I love it, you guys you know let’s be together in our beast mode and you know my beast sees you and and loves you and for everyone out there listening I love your beast. Oh God it’s it’s freeing.


June Diane Raphael  48:15

I do, we all walk around are so many masks and so many sort of ways in which we try to, you know appear otherwise.


Jessica St. Clair  48:24

Turn this camera off.


June Diane Raphael  48:28

Off, off.


Jessica St. Clair  48:29

Stop video, stop video baby, stop video. Oh, love you guys so much. Yeah, we took a journey and for all you volume eaters out there too shout out you know.


June Diane Raphael  48:43

Shout out okay, here’s a special like social challenge if you would, I’d love to see if you were if you identify as a volume eater, I’d love to see the volume because I kind of feel like oh let me be the judge you know Kira  and I were talking about that like you might think your volume eater or less be the judge, please.


Jessica St. Clair  49:04

Hashtag volume, volume meter hashtag The Deep Dive hashtag beast mode.


June Diane Raphael  49:10

Perfect, Deep Divers, we will see you next week.


June Diane Raphael  49:57

There’s more of the deep dive with Lemonada Premiums subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content like our listener questions where we answer questions from you like.


Jessica St. Clair  50:07

How do you get your hair to look like fun gold?


June Diane Raphael  50:10

Send your questions to the deep dive And subscribe now in Apple podcasts. Deep divers. I am so excited to go on tour with Mr. Jason Mandzukic and Mr. Paul Scheer. We started our tour today we’re going to Portland, Maine on October 18. Providence Rhode Island on October 19. New Haven Connecticut on the 20th Brooklyn New York BAM on the 21st would love to see you New Yorkers, you Long Islanders, you New Jersey yours out there with us. It’s going to be so insane and so much fun and there are still some tickets left head to for more information and tickets. The DEEP DIVE is produced by Lemonada media Jessica St. Clair and June Diane Raphael. Our producers Ana Cecilia, our associate producer is Dani Matias and ours supervising producer is Jamela Zarha Williams our engineer is Johnny Vince Evans. Additional Lemonada support from Steve Nelson, Stephanie Wittels Wachs and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Special thanks to Anne Geddes for a cover art and Lennon Parham. For her sweet sweet vocals. The best way to support us is to rate and review. Follow The Deep Dive wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon music with your Prime membership.

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