Click Click Click with Dr. Aliza Pressman

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This week, June phones a friend after she makes a werewolf transformation before school drop off and Jessica journeys where no man has gone before: Michael’s craft store minutes before closing time. Later, developmental psychologist Dr. Aliza Pressman joins them for a session on how to keep your sh*t together during tough parenting moments and reminds them that perfect isn’t the goal. And remember Deep Divers, it’s all about repair.

Keep up with Dr. Aliza at, check out her podcast Raising Good Humans and follow her on Instagram at @raisinggoodhumanspodcast.

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Jessica St. Clair, June Diane Raphael, Dr. Elisa Pressman

Jessica St. Clair  00:10

Hi, I’m Jessica St. Clair.


June Diane Raphael  00:12

And I’m June Diane Raphael.


Jessica St. Clair  00:14

And this is The Deep Dive. We’re about to do what women have done for centuries we’re crowding around the fire with our generous hunches. We got babies hanging off our tits, and we’re going to share with you our fears.


June Diane Raphael  00:27

That’s right.


Jessica St. Clair  00:28

Our joy, our tips on how to stay alive.


June Diane Raphael  00:32

Now Jess, we’re heating a call that no one has made.


June Diane Raphael  00:37

Not a soul, but you’re invited to listen. Absolutely because we make one promise and one promise only we will not Google a thing because frankly, we’re too damn tired. Please get ready to go on The Deep Dive.


June Diane Raphael  00:57

Hey, Jessica dysregulation I’m doing Carly Simon is driving me wild. You know, Jess you and I texted this morning. And then I had to send out a smoke signal. I’m in the midst in the throes of a mental breakdown. And I feel better so thank you for taking it I mean, I really needed to talk to someone, you know, really need to talk to someone, sometimes you really got to phone a friend and have like,


Jessica St. Clair  01:37

Hey, Scarlet letter.


June Diane Raphael  01:38

Yes, and I was in a total shame spiral. And I’m not out of it, per se, but I’m in a little bit of a better place so thank you, Jessica, for being a friend. And I you know, the one thing I wanted to tell you, though, is that a really big piece of this is that I have such bad PMS. And I what I sort of reckoned with today is like, o, the old ways may not be cutting it anymore. Like what I was doing before, and my Prozac like, it’s not quite like I don’t feel any Prozac right? Through my system and I need it. This is where the changes of life on our bodies and perimenopause are so intense, because everything gets heightened, you would think it’s like adults, but actually, it’s heightened. That’s such a good, you know, people are like, I had my period for four days straight. I was bled to death like, it’s like it’s a wild your body it’s like their last gasp of like, can we get pregnant one more time? Like, it’s so strange, your and then and then you’re eating and you’re gaining three times as much I mean, that was such a shock to me. It’s ever everything is out of whack, and so we have to recognize that because the old ways are not cutting it.


Jessica St. Clair  03:27

No, ma’am.


June Diane Raphael  03:28

In every way, in every facet of your life, your memory, oh, God, suddenly you have to write everything down. If I told you I walk around with a book, I walk around, it’s every day’s momento to me with a book. And I’m really actually quite upset because I sat down last night, or actually, I told you I got up at 4:30 in the morning and I was up at 4:30 Because both children are in bed with me and then I was like, you know what, I’m going to actually have some Academy work to attend to I gotta let some new students in, I want to check the email. You know, and so I was fiddling around doing some Academy admin.


Jessica St. Clair  04:08

At 4:30.


June Diane Raphael  04:11

Knocking and also what I should have been doing was watching the actual video that you posted that I needed to do, but instead I was like, I was up in Excel sheets and like, so that’s what I was doing was by the tree and I was like, okay, I’m just gonna go through some emails related, like try to get a handle on things. You know, get a handle on I see an email oh, God, it took my breath away. And it’s like so fucking sad it was it was someone asking me to make like a video for my one of my teachers who meant meant a lot to me turned me on to acting as the first person who said like you can if you want to do this for a living, you can do this I remember that moment and where I was standing, okay and, you know, his daughter reached out to me and I was whatever anyway, instead of happy to make a video and then and then just when I tell you it’s out of my brain, I mean, it’s it’s cloud. Jess, it’s gone.


Jessica St. Clair  05:14

I know.


June Diane Raphael  05:16

It’s not anywhere, it’s not in this lifetime it’s like in another universe. When I saw that email this morning, I was like, ah, oh my, oh my God. How did I not tend to this? You know, and it was really so that’s.


Jessica St. Clair  05:37

I don’t know if so I was on the phone with my psychiatrist. And she was the one who found the ADHD of it all. But what’s so interesting about her she’s a woman, of course, is I’m finally as I told you changing my environment, because what I was doing was no longer working but I mean, like, 10 years ago, it stopped working, and I didn’t realize it. And, you know, I’ve hired Tom Car, but you had to face some things, I did face some shameful things, but we’re drilling down on numbers, I don’t have okay, I’m writing them down on post it’s and it was, yeah, I was like, whoa, that’s crazy money.


June Diane Raphael  06:29

I know.


Jessica St. Clair  06:31

It can’t affect, and anyways, so I had that and then I got on the phone and she was telling her about the changes I was making and she said, God, thank God she goes all I do all day is see women who are overtaxed, the modern world is not supporting them. And so yes, I can give you this drug and I can give you this drug, but you need help. And you’re you’re making these decisions to get help and now and I told her but but the decisions are coming with so much guilt. I’ve texted you about it June, I can’t believe I’m spending this money. I can’t believe I’m giving myself this gift, the gift of support.


June Diane Raphael  07:13

I know it’s simply feel undeserving, I know.


Jessica St. Clair  07:17

The gift of help.


June Diane Raphael  07:19

I know.


Jessica St. Clair  07:21

To survive? And this one wild and precious life.


June Diane Raphael  07:27

Six o’clock at night we’re down with the dogs the first day first moment of the day I’m like I’m having fun I’m having fun because I got to come up with a an artifact for my Neptune project.


Jessica St. Clair  07:41

Do when?


Jessica St. Clair  07:48

Talk about unsolved mysteries we won’t know when that was assigned but I do know one of the classmates has made a mold of a boot like a step on the.


Jessica St. Clair  07:59

Much like we won’t know where Paul Shere was […] we’re never going to know when that assignment came down the wire you know we’re not gonna do it.


June Diane Raphael  08:10

And there’s things that are honestly better if we don’t know.


Jessica St. Clair  08:13

That’s what I said ago six o’clock against traffic we are now we’re going to be driving to Michael’s is going to take me we don’t have an artifact I said tell me about Neptune’s planet. Where are we? Well, it’s mostly gas so that’s gonna be tough oh, that’s really.


June Diane Raphael  08:34

To put into yeah.


Jessica St. Clair  08:36

We’ve never been there again. I go when no one’s ever landed. We don’t have a probe she goes I just said it’s made up. I go why are you yelling at me? When was this due? How could this have been assigned today? BB people have been making plaster boards. I’m on fucking Instacart ordering from Michaels, Listerine and no, because we bought the accouter mods for a snow globe make your own but I didn’t get the snow. So yes, June please at what I said to you and God our guest today Dr. Liza Pressman such a perfect guest.


June Diane Raphael  09:21

Yeah, I’m excited to talk to her.


Jessica St. Clair  09:24

Because she is about parenting, not perfect. But your way and the way that works and that the end result doesn’t have to be perfect that’s not the goal perfect is not the goal. And that’s and I think it’s so funny because as much as I don’t think I would like describe myself as a perfectionist, I do […] What are you literally talking about? You are the one you are the leader of perfectionist, you are the leader.


June Diane Raphael  10:10

It is really hard for me to sit with like just how badly I fucked up during today’s morning, you know, exit out the door. And it’s like, I know I can give grace to other people but I’m like, why will I? Why do I refuse it of myself? You know, I hold myself to a standard that is, it is truly so unrealistic as a parent. But one thing I’m planning on doing I’ve got some repair work to do as Jess and I talked about absolutely lost my fucking shit on my children this morning like lost it like goodbye good night, good luck supported it. It’s what you know, I come from a different again.


Jessica St. Clair  10:52

We’ll see what Dr. Eliza says but.


June Diane Raphael  10:54

Yeah, and I do too. I think that I also feel myself though I’m in where like, you are in beast mode. I’m I’m in werewolf mode, the changes come in, the changes come in.


Jessica St. Clair  11:06

I’m like already started, it’s like we’re gone. You’re wearing, you’re wearing your varsity jacket but oh, God, the hairs are starting to cut the veins popping. He’s like, I gotta get out of school before this happens airwolf, and you know.


June Diane Raphael  11:23

And you know what Jess, the whole morning because I was alone, I was thinking I just gotta get them out of here. I just gotta get them out of here. But I couldn’t you know, the transformation was complete. Before they like, as I told you the damage I did, by 7:48am would like blow your mind. It was like a 7:48 like, how did so much happen? But I just could no longer take it I couldn’t take it. And, you know, looking back I as much as I’m like, that was really, you know, I behaved badly and lost it anger rage came out. I’m also like, I don’t know, I don’t know if I could have done it another way. To be honest.


Jessica St. Clair  12:10

I don’t know if you should have this should, I think again, I’m not a doctor, we got a doctor coming. Let’s of course pretend we’re the experts before she shows up. But like, what I told you is, it’s good for them to see us be imperfect. And then own it apologize forgive ourselves. Because they’re going to be imperfect. And they’re going to remember, remember that morning and you will laugh about it I guarantee you. BB yelled at was, you need to be nicer to kids […] maybe you need to fucking put on your shoes when I send you up there and I don’t find you dancing in front of the mirror when we are 20 minutes late.


June Diane Raphael  12:47

It’s hard of what happened time management is so you know it seems so simple, right? Like you get ready and you go but time management is a big issue in this house. And part of what happens Jess, is with my oldest son Gus has a lot of conversation on his stitches right now, as I told you just this is stitches have become his entire personality, his three, so I have to change a bandage this morning. And there’s so much drama around it. And it’s changed a lot of time. And then I’m like no, you gotta go get dressed and hop to it from and quick know from my bedroom. I hear not even getting dressed, I know what that sounds like. I hear that click click click of a Rubik’s Cube. Click Click, click click Oh, click click click shit takes years to solve. He’s like I’m getting dressed and then I click I go don’t [..] he’s flying this rubics cube, Excuse me?


Jessica St. Clair  14:30

That was one click too many.


June Diane Raphael  14:33

Honestly, just it was one click too many.


Jessica St. Clair  14:37

That honestly, this is a life lesson. He’s gonna be out of a job and they’re gonna say send him that report and he better not be clicking away because these are rules in life. When have I wished? And I’m sorry, but the picking up of a Rubik’s Cube.


June Diane Raphael  14:56

And we’re late.


Jessica St. Clair  14:58

When we’re late.


June Diane Raphael  14:59

Oh, it was so bold.


Jessica St. Clair  15:01

Sometimes it feels like Downton Abbey over here. And I’m downstairs and everyone knows it 1,000% and they are in fourth grade you know, where’s my lunch? Like, you’re at this age, June, you were like doing your own laundry and packing a bunch of assaults, just like myself. So there’s a resetting and I also would say, too, and she’s going to talk about this, the doctor re parenting yourself because I say to BB too, I own it. I say, I got some triggers. One is, when you’re disrespectful, or you act like I work for you that’s a trigger for me. You need to know that she, needs to know that because I I mean, I’m pretty easy about a lot of stuff. But that one? Which Lenin calls home training?


June Diane Raphael  15:54

Yes. Good old fashioned old training.


Jessica St. Clair  15:57

You don’t behave certain ways but yeah, that’s one of my big triggers disrespectful speaking, you can do a lot of stuff, but not that one. And hurry it up we are a team in the morning. You know, we’re talking about Apollo 13. What if that person you know, in the space project? What if someone decided to play a buck and Rubik’s Cube when we’re supposed to calculate the coordinate?


June Diane Raphael  16:19

I know and it’s like, there’s, I can’t be the holder of everyone’s time here.


Jessica St. Clair  16:28

Nor should you.


June Diane Raphael  16:29

And how long it takes to do things. And I feel like that’s the, that’s the mental load that I am responsible for here is like, everybody’s always asking me what time is it? Mom? What time do you have to leave mom and I’m just like, maybe we all need an old fashioned watch. I can’t I’m serious we also had a watch. They have had watch, they have watches, they have a Lexus they can get the time easily if they wanted to. You know, and then I got another little one who’s totally compliant you know, and I hate the word compliant for a child. But he’s and he looked at he looked at me this morning, and he said, you shouldn’t have said that to Gus.


Jessica St. Clair  17:17

And you shouldn’t have.


June Diane Raphael  17:18

I shouldn’t have I shouldn’t have I said I lost it, I lost it.


Jessica St. Clair  17:22

I don’t, I don’t I think we the it’s all about repair it’s all about repair oh, wait, I think I told you this Carl Hornblower and I, I read that we do the wrong good parents do the wrong thing 7 out of 10 times. The wrong thing, these are good parents with attached children and, and they repair that’s what makes them good parents, and I said that to Kyle I said, Kyle, can you fucking believe we make that kind of mistake that’s hideous and he goes, that’s batting a 300. That’s a great batting average. You’re in the Hall of Fame. What a great way to look at it, what a great way to look at it. Yeah, I mean, your total and I believe this, I believe this. I just you know, and then I got on the treadmill, I got on the treadmill, I like furiously ran three miles and I feel a little bit I talk to you I got in, like I feel a little bit better. You know, I also just as I told you, I haven’t had my space. I’ve had children sleeping on me for sometimes you get touched out as a mom. And I’m about just about touchdown. I would say too, it started on Halloween because everyone’s been very sick all the time. Okay, Lennon’s house every soldiers are falling every day and now she’s she’s fallen. And and it’s like that builds up in your system. You’re not sleeping, you’re waking up and that’s the hard part is like what do you, who do you call for help from there isn’t anybody maybe in the old days we lived with our Nanas, you know, Strega Nona, and they would come in and make a pasta pot but they’re a no Strega Nona come and nobody cares for you or about you when you’re a mother and everybody’s traveling. It’s, I just, you can’t I don’t even think the point is like we need yeah, we need more help okay, but what we really need is to forgive ourselves and go, oh, fuck it I’m doing the best I can.


June Diane Raphael  19:35

You know what, you’re right, Jess […] you right I fucked up.


Jessica St. Clair  19:46

Man, that’s that, don’t take it on because you are such a wonderful mom, I see you every minute of your day being a wonderful mom. You know, I know that in my heart you’re a wonderful mom so do your kids. That’s why they feel comfortable telling you can you imagine if you’re a kid and you’re actually afraid of your parents ask Dan if he ever said to his parents like you shouldn’t have said that like, no, no, no. You are like out of the house.


Jessica St. Clair  20:13

You’re right.


Jessica St. Clair  20:14

I could I would never say that to my mom, I mean, no way.


June Diane Raphael  20:18

You’re right, all right, deep divers, we will see you back in just a minute.


June Diane Raphael  22:32

Anyway, Jess, how are you? I’m happy to see you post Thanksgiving.


Jessica St. Clair  22:38

We haven’t had pickleball in months, you know.


June Diane Raphael  22:40

That and then that’s weighing on me ,and that’s weighing on me.


Jessica St. Clair  22:45

It’s been a lot of yes, it’s been a lot of hullabaloo and like, you know, I guess what I’m struggling with is not only is the morning drop off, but then the time between they’re in school and we pick them up. And we’re like boom, boom, boom, boom, podcast, podcast, podcast, meeting, podcast writing podcast. And I’m, I don’t know how to stop that train. But the girl cottage, coastal grandma cottage, the plans are afoot.


June Diane Raphael  23:20

That’s so exciting.


Jessica St. Clair  23:23

And I’m going to the the monofilament I’m going to film its transformation, but we’re selecting some blues. You know, we’ve got some pallets, you know, and we’ve got a white cotton slipcover coming for the sectional. When we’re sourcing different things I bought Drew Barrymore’s chair, her new chair on Walmart. She does two chairs that are viral and like incredible so I bought her chair that’s coming. I’m so excited about a room of one zone and it’s booking up, it’s booking up. I’ve guides already best friends coming so two best friends separately alone without their families are coming to have what they call Spirk a spa work three days. They’re coming for spa, work, hike, sleep alone for three days.


June Diane Raphael  24:18



Jessica St. Clair  24:20

So things are booking up in the cottage. It’s exciting. I’m so excited, so January 1st, you know we’re in there painting you know, we’re painting and I obviously Deep Divers DM me with your thoughts where you know when light blue on the walls, what do you think?


June Diane Raphael  24:42

Some pictures of like what it is now.


Jessica St. Clair  24:45

[…] gonna put yeah, I’m going to whoa, the transformation is going to be crazy. I’m taking all of the furniture that’s existing because it is furnished some of it will be removed but the stuff that isn’t all white, all white everything so if people know too Deep Divers do you know how to how to easily you know, shellac stuff? I don’t know, I’m just gonna be getting into shellacking. I’m it’s white everything with a pale blue like sea glass, everything seaglass everything sand dollar everything’s burlap, everything’s linen, everything’s coastal. Like we have a wedding coming up. June that you will be at as well. September 1st I said, well, the girls will have to all have a sleepover. Because it’s in Malibu we’ll all have to sleep over at the cottage, this is a girl sleepover cottage.


June Diane Raphael  25:40

Wow, Jess.


Jessica St. Clair  25:41

Yeah, this cottage is giving me life. And it’s great to know it’s there like, I feel like I might need it at points like I might check in month you know, like, who knows? But it’s residency? […] And it sounds so crazy but I even thought like maybe we do some sort of a contest where like a very special Deep Diver comes to go stay there.And have the Santa Monica experience? I don’t know, I don’t know.


June Diane Raphael  26:10

All the places will go I mean, there’s so much, there’s so much.


Jessica St. Clair  26:14

So that’s me pushing behind my limit beyond my limit because this is me taking care of myself.


June Diane Raphael  26:20

And that very proud of you.


Jessica St. Clair  26:22

But I want everyone to know that taking care of yourself as a woman feels bad making the decisions. Your body and brain will tell you you don’t need it that it is selfish, that it is a waste. And you have to not listen.


June Diane Raphael  26:39

Yeah, you got to override it.


Jessica St. Clair  26:42

You have to override. And here’s the other thing that happened to me, June and I know we’ve touched on this before, but I’m going to say it because I know so many of our Deep Divers experienced this. And my psychiatrist was asking, how are you feeling? And I said, this is going to sound so crazy. But I know I’m feeling happier because I was gripped with fear pulling into my garage, that something terrible would happen. That’s my sign.


June Diane Raphael  27:13

That things are going well.


Jessica St. Clair  27:17



June Diane Raphael  27:18

Jess, I believe me, I get it.


Jessica St. Clair  27:22

Gripped with fear, I’ll be punished they’ll be taken away.


June Diane Raphael  27:26

I get it.


Jessica St. Clair  27:27

But when you’re busy being unhappy, you don’t think any of those things. She was busy being unhappy, but I was like that’s my sign. I must be doing well because I’m afraid I’ll be a catastrophic accident will destroy me fulfill me.


June Diane Raphael  27:42

I know I 1,000% get that you know well I’ve been thinking about something which you know, we did our Add to Cart tree Time episode yesterday with Kulap Vilaysack and SuChin Pak, and Casey Wilson.


Jessica St. Clair  27:56

That was fun.


Jessica St. Clair  27:57

Oh was fun.


June Diane Raphael  27:59

You know afterwards, I was really reflecting on the holidays and like how because what I what some of what I shared is how I really feel like I’ve evolved into such quality a person.


Jessica St. Clair  28:08

Who have which I didn’t really realize you didn’t know you thought I always was always there. I didn’t know you were a recent, quote unquote dd to the Christmas is here text chain, and we’re always this way and I didn’t know that.


June Diane Raphael  28:23

I didn’t really know it either unntil yesterday, but. But what I was reflecting on as I was like, oh my gosh. When my mom died, we just like stopped, like we didn’t have Christmas or Thanksgiving that year.


Jessica St. Clair  28:43

Oh, wow that makes sense.


June Diane Raphael  28:45

And you know, it just it took many years and honestly took children to get back into it. And I had this like memory of the first Christmas going to visit my friend in Chicago, the first Christmas at my mom died. And it was like after Thanksgiving and we were having dinner somewhere and they were playing Christmas music and I was like, get it off. I couldn’t handle it. And, you know, we didn’t do presents, we went we actually like went to volunteer that morning because it was the only thing that felt like right to do. But I was just thinking about it because I was like, oh, the abundance of Christmas. And I’ve gotten so into it because I have these things. You know I have these kids and Paul and it’s so much fun to do together. It’s so much fun. But I just also know so deeply how painful this time can be for people and I just like yeah just was just wanted to share that with all the Christmas. Like I just know, it seems almost far away from me but I remember somewhere in my body the feeling of like, I cannot get through this holiday. And I can’t handle it, it was so painful. Well, we’re going to interview in a couple of weeks. Molly, who is the daughter of Lila who is my surrogate mom who passed on and she will speak to this. I had been asking her to come out and speak and she said I can’t I can’t and then finally she said I’m ready. And that coming out and being able to feel joy again is it’s unexpected.


Jessica St. Clair  30:45

It is and I’m grateful for it and I’m like, oh, I think it’s maybe why have gone so hard at Christmas. Deep Divers if you’re not driving close your eyes. June’s gonna just tell you in two minutes about her bedroom tree. Take us through it, I’m gonna close my eyes while you talk.


June Diane Raphael  31:03

Yeah, so I was walking the aisles of tradition traditions with KC and Kulap, the Christmas store, the year round Christmas store in Van Nuys and an idea came to me about my bedroom tricks last year, the first time I had and I just had a white tree and I put a couple of red bows on it just white lights victory. And it was lovely but I didn’t do much with it also came in late in the season. But this year, it came to me like a dream or I thought I picked up a box of peppermint garland garland with little peppermints on it. And I thought I’m gonna do a peppermint tree. And so I ordered all the ornaments and I got a bunch of different peppermint garland’s, I don’t like everything so same, same same different peppermint, and it has become a full blown peppermint theme tree. And it is one of my it, I am so proud, I’m so proud of this tree, and may I just say it looks professional Jessica.


Jessica St. Clair  32:17

I know I feel like it looks like if it was entered in a Christmas tree contest, I would it would win. Like you’re one of those women because there are women who just that’s all they do is go to different places and design trees for people that it’s you’re gonna post a picture of it. It’s a joy and a sweet treat for the eyes and the soul. And it’s in your bedroom and we were talking about how the bedroom can be mommy’s tree.


June Diane Raphael  32:42

It is mommy’s tree.


Jessica St. Clair  32:44

It is mommy’s tree and it will also is the most frivolous thing I’ve ever thought of. It’s like it’s so stupid, it’s so stupid for a grown woman to spend time hanging tiny peppermint candy ornaments on a tree and yet what joy and what therapy? Oh, it’s everything to me, alright, Deep Divers hang around we got more after this quick break.


June Diane Raphael  33:35

Jess, we have a special guest joining us. It feels like, gosh, I can like we’ve been having this conversation about this very issue. And then it seems like we build a private session […] Deep divers Dr. Elisa Pressman is a developmental psychologist with over 15 years of experience working with families after co founding seedlings group and the Mount Sinai parenting Center. She began the raising good humans podcast you’ve heard us talk about it before, where she makes latest child development research accessible to all parents. Her Instagram she have to follow has over 100,000 followers who are able to bookmark her graphics and videos filled with many tips and tricks on how to handle parental stress and have deeper connections with your children during times where you absolutely want to lose your shit. She helps us keep it together. Welcome to the podcast, thank you so much for coming on.


Dr. Elisa Pressman  34:36

Thank you so much for having me, I’m very excited.


June Diane Raphael  34:40

Now, Dr. Pressman, we we’ve had a morning where where one of us may have lost their shit.


Dr. Elisa Pressman  34:47



Jessica St. Clair  34:48

And we’ve been talking and it was so funny because I had been doing a little research on you and the new book really on the new book that’s coming out in January and it feels like it’s exactly what we were just speaking about and when June texted me SOS I feel like I just tried to summarize what it sounds like your books about,  because when I what I had read and I’m just going to quote it it said in the age of high pressure parenting when so many of us feel we feel like we’ve got to get everything exactly right the first time. Dr. Lisa Pressman is the compassion, reassuring expert we all need. And the one whose advice we can all use. And so it’s the the idea of can you speak to this feeling that we’ve got to get everything right, and how it makes us fall into a shame spiral when something doesn’t go right. And what do you do when you fall into it?


Dr. Elisa Pressman  35:42

Yes, I, I’m so sad for us, as parents, as mothers, because there’s such an inundation of information and I am part of it, I really want to give information. I think like the rejection of all of it would lead to chaos. But taking it all in and expecting to get it all right and expecting that there is an All right, is so rigid and unhealthy. And so like I’m very focused on the boring space between of like, what really matters, and the rest of that shit is noise. And half the time it’s not even true. It’s not even scientific, it’s just gobbledygook is goblins.


Jessica St. Clair  36:29

What do you what is it is we’re going to accept that what what does matter in terms of a child’s attachment to their parents and having a positive bond? What matters?


Dr. Elisa Pressman  36:41

Well, if I may distilled it down to five principles from the science, that if you merge those principles, they’re not mine, I just made them into something that starts with ours and you can remember.


Jessica St. Clair  36:56

That’s wonderful for us.


June Diane Raphael  36:58

Yeah, that’s good that’s good.


Dr. Elisa Pressman  36:59

So that’s relationship reflection, regulation, rules and repair. And that is what leads to resilience. And when you combine that with your values, not the science, but just your personal values, and taking into account your temperament and your child’s temperament, who they are, you don’t need anything else. Everything else is nonsense. Maybe if you like, really love the minutiae of it, you can focus on that, but it’s not going to change the long term picture. And to the point of losing your shit with your kids, you made a mistake, you will again, and if you don’t make mistakes, your kids won’t believe they’re allowed to make mistakes. So I actually think you have to make mistakes. If you’re perfect at this, which you can’t be anyway, you would be doing a disservice and burdening your kids so I feel like that’s how you convince yourself out of it because we don’t care about ourselves, but we do care about our kids. So if for no other reason that it’s shitty for your kids, for you to be perfect, you cannot be perfect.


June Diane Raphael  38:06

If that’s really helpful, that’s really, really helpful. I mean, it’s so interesting, because there what I what I find very challenging about parenting, as opposed to other areas of life, where I feel like triggered by things is, there are times where it really does feel like you’re in sort of a hot box situation that you can’t get out of like today. And Jessica is referencing when I really tough morning this morning and definitely lost it and said something I really regret and and just lost it. I lost my temper raged out, pushed to the edge, you know, fell over. But in other areas of life, like I wouldn’t be able to recognize those trigger points and say, step back, walk away, take a breath, go get a cup of coffee, like there’s so many ways in other scenarios, like in other areas where that wouldn’t happen. And yet, there are times with parenting or it feels so kind of pressurized. And there’s no exit and you’re just like, well, I and I told Jess, I’m also about to get my period, but I was like I was 15 minutes away from getting those kids to school. Without Yes, you know, without causing damage. And I couldn’t get there. And like that frustrates me because it was so clear I’m so close to being and by the way, like this whole thing about perfect please know that even if that hadn’t happened, I wouldn’t have been perfect this morning. I just wouldn’t have like completely lost it.


Dr. Elisa Pressman  39:55

I think you just articulated why we do lose our show, it because you said, damaged and like, the idea of damaging our kids is so terrifying. The investment is so intense and vulnerable and so our stress response is like, at the ready. And the very fact that you imagine that you could damage your kids from losing your shit this morning, is there’s no other part of your life where you would think that that would be that that you could cause harm in that way. But we’re so scared, yeah, we’re just so scared to screw up. And I really want, um, I am not saying this to make you feel better, although I hope it does. But you can’t live through a whole childhood without seeing the range of emotions. And that you can come back from them and make it into adulthood as a person who believes that human beings can have a range of emotions and come back from them. And so the repair that you make after you lose your shit when you pick your kids up today, and you just say like, you know, sheepishly and shamefully, like, I just need to have a moment I want to apologize. I, you know, lost it I’m not proud, I’m not making excuses, I just want to say I’m sorry and I love you guys and I’m sure your kids are gonna be like, be quiet, let’s can I get, you know, gone with my day. But they know and that’s all that matters is that you can come back from it and you see their little faces, and they’re like, we know that we’re not scared of you. Being afraid of your parents means that you can’t make repairs. But being able to know that like, that kind of shit happens and it’s just not the end of the world and no damage was done. And then when you make repairs, you actually are like building the resilience.


June Diane Raphael  42:12

What exactly is resilience in children and in humans, you know.


Dr. Elisa Pressman  42:17

Yeah, resilience is essentially being able to bounce back in the face of trauma, stress, adversity. That bounce back ability is totally doable and possible from the parenting environment that you experience, from your own inner skills that you can build. And then there’s a part of it that we can’t do anything about it’s a big part of it is like what color you were born, what culture you came in, from, what socio economic category you’re in, like, things that have nothing to do with anything we have control over. So I don’t want to fixate on that, because that can feel very, overwhelmingly depressing. But for the parts that you can do something about resilience is attainable and it means that when you see challenges, you don’t give up, and you don’t say like, I can’t come out of this hole ever again, it doesn’t mean that you’re not going to feel sad and lonely and scared and depressed and anguish over your lifetime it just means that you believe in your bones, that it’s not forever.


June Diane Raphael  43:37

And you’re modeling that for your children so like, let’s say you did lose your shit on them and then that afternoon, you’re like mommy’s a terrible person. I’m a bad mom, I’ll never make it a good choice again, they learn, oh, you made a mistake, and it destroyed you. And that’s what happens with mistakes, right?


Dr. Elisa Pressman  44:00

The pressure isn’t to not make the mistakes, it’s to be able to have the self compassion and capacity for repairing them mistakes. And it’s so important, because we are such assholes to ourselves. But the voice that we use in our head, even if we don’t say it out loud, like it’s contagious. So if there is any pressure that I would put on parents, particularly mothers, it would be to tell that voice. I like I hear you, I get it, I’m not kicking you out but I would like to put you I would like to put you over to the side for a few minutes and welcome like the nice wise grandmother voice in my head. Because that’s the one that’s going to protect my children, it’s not this nasty person and I don’t want our kids to have you know, like we all have those voices in our heads. We can’t get rid of them but we can definitely say like, I’m going to balance you out with something that’s a little bit more gentle with me, and that is serving to add to the resilience that I’m trying to support and my kids.


June Diane Raphael  45:08

Sorry, that makes me cry that’s so beautiful.


Dr. Elisa Pressman  45:11

We’re just so vicious to ourselves. And I know that we won’t be if it only serves us, I wish that I could just be like, you know what, June, don’t parade yourself who needs that. But I just don’t buy that any of us are going to just take care of ourselves. But I do believe that we do anything, you’ll do anything, he’ll do anything, including trying to just say like, you were scared this morning and you lashed out and you’re still here, the kids are still here and we get, we get to laugh this evening.


June Diane Raphael  45:56

Fortunately, I have to get on a flight in two hours and won’t see them. But guess what I will call, I will call? Yeah, no, we did do some repair, we did do some of this.


Dr. Elisa Pressman  46:06

And maybe it’s that fast I mean, the thing is, you never look at your kids when they’re having a great time and when you’re having a great time with them and say like, this is going to be forever, right? You’re never worried that they’re going to be happy forever. But somehow when we lose it, and when they’re upset, and we’re upset, we think I’ve ruined things. Like, everything’s, everything is just a temporary moment in the story what really matters is the big picture story. And so I that’s why I worry about all of the, again, I do, I just wrote a book, I have the podcast, I have Instagram, like, I want you to have information, but not if that information is like, when you lose your shit with your kids, you’re, you’re corroding the attachment relationship. Come on, you know that you have a connected relationship with your kids. You know it? So you’re gonna blow it sometimes, but it’s just not and we all can’t, it’s shameful because you’re like, I would not do that, like you said, like, you know how to not do that in the world?


June Diane Raphael  47:18



Dr. Elisa Pressman  47:19

But it’s so much harder in the space of this really intimate relationship where, like, nobody’s watching you. And you’re just, you know, you’re, you’re basically talking to yourself.


June Diane Raphael  47:36

Yeah, and by the way, like, this is so crazy but I had a whole like, secret plan for later today where I was like, I am what I’m gonna do, because I had already showed both of my children were my, like my cycle is we’re in premenstrual on on a calendar. And they were looking because the way the app works, it’s like, there’s yellow days that are PMS days and then the red days are when actually my period. And I, I saw I must have been on the phone and they saw me looking at and I said, you know, these days, these yellow days really hard for me and sometimes it’s one and by the way that that was today, but But it’s somewhere along these days, I’m going to be having a hard time they asked me what happens. I’m like, I feel incredibly irritable [..] I feel honestly like I can’t handle a you know, a Lego dropping like it’s like a level of kind of like intense and, and it’s just this time. And my youngest was like wanting to go through all of the days this year that were important to him to see where I was on my cycle. I was actually like, yeah, let’s lay on his calendar on the calendar for soccer practice and not a calendar, hey, always so I was like, what wonderful partners you will make them.


Dr. Elisa Pressman  49:09

I was just about to sign up every buddy raising.


June Diane Raphael  49:16

So I was like, you know, yeah, so we were looking at it and, you know, on their birthdays this year will not have PMS, but you know, so I’m in my secret my secret mind since 7:48 this morning I was like, I’m gonna tell him I’m going to show him the calendar and show him what today was not and I don’t want to make excuses for my behavior, but I also was like, I felt so out of control. That was absolutely not and again, not that I not that this couldn’t have happened another day and I really don’t want to make excuses but I felt truly like a werewolf. And so my plan was to also just show him what to do. That’s, that’s not a full throated apology.


Jessica St. Clair  50:09

No, I wanted to say though, how do we because I have a similar thing with when I get a migraine, I often, most often don’t tell anybody and I push through and then I end up acting fucking crazy, you know, in a Michaels or something. And I’ve realized with Dan, I need to say like, flag on the play. I am spoiler alert, I am a quarter of a person. So I might be looking like a human but I am not yes or no, no, not in bed under the covers but I when I tell you, mentally I am I am. How do you apologize to a child? Or anyone really and say this was happening but that doesn’t excuse? Could you say I’m having PMS, but I what I should have done if I could have gone back and what I’d like to do next time to say flag on the play, guys. Mommy’s having one of those days. So I might need extra help just getting out the door? Is that the way we do it? Or do we not bring it up at all?


Dr. Elisa Pressman  51:13

So I think there are two separate things. One is that naming your affective state is a genuine gift. Because, you know, like how many of us had parents who like didn’t tell us but they were so upset. And you as a child are like, I know something’s going on but nobody’s telling me, so I’ll just make up a story in my head or take it personally or whatever it is and how much better off would we be if somebody walked in the door and was like, I’m a shell of a person having nothing to do with you right now, I’m feeling this way I can take care of myself, so you don’t have to worry. I just wanted to let you know I’m going to be taking a walk and a bath and ignoring you only because I need to get myself out of there.


June Diane Raphael  51:59

Wow, I just want to repeat that because that.


Jessica St. Clair  52:03

That’s the big part for us. June.


June Diane Raphael  52:05

That was really powerful, you don’t have to worry because I’m going to be taking care of myself.


Jessica St. Clair  52:10

What great modeling, that’s right because isn’t it true that what we do is so much more effective than what we say to them, like showing them, I’m taking care of myself?


Dr. Elisa Pressman  52:22

Yeah, like I have a plan. These are the things that I need on these kinds of days, and by the way, when you get to a certain phase in life that I am in, it’s no longer predictable.


June Diane Raphael  52:34

You can’t be can’t show them an app.


Dr. Elisa Pressman  52:36

Can’t show an app and it’s just like, my brain is still in that place of like, it has nothing to deal with and then surprise.


June Diane Raphael  52:46

It’s got everything to do with it.


Dr. Elisa Pressman  52:48

But so I think in the apology, I wouldn’t talk about any of that. I would just say, hey, great I’m still like I and and it doesn’t need to be like they’ve moved on and you’re still like I need you to make me feel better. It’s just hey, you may already know this I hope you do, I was a total maniac this morning I am so sorry and I love you so much and I really regret that I yelled and I just wanted to say that and I love you blah, blah, blah, the end. And separately another time, you can say by the way, it isn’t an excuse, but it’s something to be aware of that there are certain times of the month, as I’ve told you where I am less regulated as emotionally, I’m just like ready to pounce and from now on, I’m going to let you know those days that are going to be a little bit more sensitive so that you don’t have to take it personally. And I’m still going to do the really hard work of not letting you end up in that soup. But if you do, I’ve at least talk to you about it. But you’re separating the apologies.


June Diane Raphael  54:09

Two things, separated that because what I don’t do well I’m like I’m sorry this is especially with my partner but I’ll do it. So you need to you also need to know like what you did wrong, and then I’m like, I can’t believe you didn’t accept that apology that’s also something you did wrong.


Dr. Elisa Pressman  54:20

Yeah, that’s different. I can’t it’s easier with kids. But it’s so because when there’s never no reason.


June Diane Raphael  54:36

That’s true, there was quite a good reason this morning trust and believe.


Jessica St. Clair  54:45

Trust and believe that it involved a Rubik’s Cube when there was the word we’re already 20 minutes late she heard the click of a Rubik’s Cube.


June Diane Raphael  55:00

But I swear this is how much of what Jess and I were just talking about that we knew you were going to come on. So but I really appreciate what you’ve said, and we’ll be holding it.


Jessica St. Clair  55:13

Such valuable information, I can’t wait to read it, when is your book coming out, tell people where to find it and everything.


Dr. Elisa Pressman  55:19

It’s coming out January 23. And I think you just get it anywhere although ideally, you go to book shop or something that gets local bookstores.


June Diane Raphael  55:30

And it’s called the Five Principles of parenting.


Dr. Elisa Pressman  55:33

Yes, I really want to make it like, as under one roof kind of book for Across Ages, that just focuses on what really matters, or what makes your day easier, and nothing else. And I also am sorry, you had a hard morning.


June Diane Raphael  55:52

Thank you, thank you so much. I you know, I I am I’m totally dysregulated right now, even not being able to stop crying during this podcast. It’s just like, you know, just total, just emotional rawness today, all around. But, but this was really helpful thank you. And yeah, I do think, you know, I feel a lot better, and I love also the way you’re framing this book, which is that there’s so much information and to pare it down and to take just sort of like the core things that we know, but we have to remind ourselves we know we know this beautiful, so I’m really excited to read it and thank you so much for coming on and where can we find you on Instagram?


Dr. Elisa Pressman  56:49

Raising good humans podcast.


June Diane Raphael  56:51

Raising good humans podcast, we’ve talked about your podcast multiple times. So it’s great.


Jessica St. Clair  56:56

What kind of recap we’re kind of a recap podcast of your pug.


Dr. Elisa Pressman  57:01

You should come on my podcast, we’ll have the same conversation, but we could do another sesh.


June Diane Raphael  57:06

Okay, fantastic.


Jessica St. Clair  57:07

That’d be great because you know, funds are tight, so it’s great to have a lottery have to do it in public. You know, we have to do it in school bartering system is great. Oh my gosh, thank you so much. Dr. Lisa, you’re the best.


Dr. Elisa Pressman  57:21

Thank you.


Jessica St. Clair  57:21

You’re the best.


CREDITS  58:02

The DEEP DIVE is produced by Lemonada media Jessica St. Clair and June Diane Raphael. Our producers Ana Cecilia, our associate producer is Dani Matias and ours supervising producer is Jamela Zarha Williams. Our engineer is Johnny Vince Evans. Additional Lemonada support from Steve Nelson, Stephanie Wittels Wachs and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Special thanks to Anne Geddes for a cover art and Lennon Parham. For her sweet sweet vocals. The best way to support us is to rate and review. Follow The Deep Dive wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon music with your Prime membership.

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