How are you coping with the recent news from the Supreme Court? Not well? Today, V asks grief expert Claire Bidwell Smith how to effectively manage our feelings in light of the verdict that has sent many of us into an emotional tailspin. Claire discusses the relationship between anxiety and grief, shares tips on how to practice self-care, and offers advice on how to turn feelings of anger and despair into action. V also explains the most important recent decisions from the Court, including the consequences of overturning Roe v. Wade, the new ruling on the right to carry guns in public, and a decision on religion in schools. Follow Claire at @clairebidwell on Twitter and @clairebidwellsmith on Instagram. Keep up with V on TikTok at @underthedesknews and on Twitter at @VitusSpehar. And stay up to date with us on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram at @LemonadaMedia.
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V Spehar, Claire Bidwell-Smith
V Spehar 00:01
Hey friends, it’s Tuesday, June 28th, 2022. Welcome to V INTERESTING, where we break down the viral and very interesting news that you might have missed. I’m V Spehar. And on today’s show, well, today’s show is a very special episode. Today we are going to be entirely devoted to the Supreme Court decisions, including, of course, the High Court overturning Roe v. Wade, and ending abortion rights that have been upheld for decades.
and that heaviness that we’re all feeling, that is grief, we lost something. So we’re going to learn some ways that we can effectively cope and manage our grief, with therapists and podcast host, Claire Bidwell-Smith.
It doesn’t mean we’re not going to take action; it doesn’t mean we’re not going to feel angry; it doesn’t mean we’re not going to grapple with anxiety. But letting yourself feel that initial wave of just grief is so important.
And later, we’re going to hear from you. How are you dealing with this news? And how are you moving forward, all that is coming up on today’s the interesting, let’s just hold hands, and we will get through this together.
I, like all of you, was taken to my knees with the overturning of Roe v. Wade, and a litany of other attacks on our freedoms that came from the Supreme Court opinions released over the last week. And in many ways, I am still feeling really down. But there’s this one thing I like to do something that helps me when I’m hit with the unspeakable. And that is to read and read and read again, just exactly what was said. And then I try to remind myself of exactly where I’m at in this present moment. Not like where we’re going or what’s next, or try to like, guess what any of it means. Just let’s look at today, June 28th, 2022. What happened? Will you do that with me? Just kind of like, sit here and let’s get things straight for a moment. Thank you for trusting me. We’re just gonna go one step at a time.
V Spehar 02:20
Okay, the Supreme Court has been dropping tons of opinions before they leave for their summer break. And today we are going to focus on the major decisions that have been handed down. We are talking guns, God and women’s rights. So let’s start with God, shall we? Because I don’t know what God you believe in. But I’ve been talking to whoever will listen lately. So we might as well stop there while we have someone’s attention. The headline was, the Supreme Court has eliminated the separation of church and state. And what they’re talking about is Carson V. Macon, in which the Supreme Court ruled that Maine cannot exclude religious schools from tuition assistance programs, a.k.a, they cannot stop religious schools from getting government funding. The six three decision means that if the state is using taxpayer money to pay for a student to attend to a non-religious private school, it must also use taxpayer funds to cover tuition at religious schools. Now, Maine is one of the most rural states in the country, where more than half of the school districts don’t even have public high schools. So getting a government subsidy to attend a private or like a charter high school out of your town is much more common in rural Maine. But the churchy schools were like, hey, we should get some of that money, too. So, how is this going to affect to the rest of the nation, there is going to be a lot more competition for those government subsidies, which used to be used in like emergency or rare occasions. And the purpose was to make sure that every child no matter how rural community they live in had access to education. But because the court didn’t rule narrowly on this, that it was really just like, Okay, well, if there’s no other school, then I guess we could give taxpayer funds to church schools, because we want these kids to be educated. It will be broadly applied across the United States, meaning the Christian church schools will probably benefit the most. But Jewish day schools, Muslim schools, even the Satanic Temple are all making clear that they to expect to be cut in on government funding for education. So what sucks, I guess, what sucks the most about it? You know, your tax dollars now do go to funding at least some form of religious indoctrination of children, whether you believe in that religion or not, and there’s just nothing we can do about it. The attorney general of Maine said in a statement that some of these schools even refused to admit gay and transgender children or openly discriminate on hiring teachers and staff that identify as queer.
V Spehar 04:51
Our tax dollars fund a shit ton of stuff that we don’t agree with, like war. But yeah, this is like a very big sledgehammer to the idea of the separation church and state. Now, it doesn’t mean that the church is going to like steal all of the funding or something. It just means that they’ll get a slice of the already very small pie that is serving education opportunities to mostly rural poor children. And speaking of religion in school, the Supreme Court had another six three decision on Monday, they ruled that a high school football coach in Washington does have the right to pray on the 50 yard line after his team’s games, members of his team often prayed with him. Some of them felt like they had to or they might not get playtime. Previous rulings from the court over decades have generally prohibited anything that might seem like pressuring students to participate in religious activities. That is now completely on the table. Okay, so now let’s just put that on the shelf for one second while we move to the next topic. Next up, guns. The Supreme Court says you want to carry a gun, no problem. In another six three decision. Last week, the High Court ruled that every American has the legal right to carry a firearm for self-defense. They struck down in over 100 year old New York law that limited who could carry a gun outside their home. This is a major expansion of gun rights handed down in a case from a state where 10 black people were gunned down by a white supremacist in a supermarket just last month. The ruling makes it easier for a licensed owner to bring a concealed gun into public spaces for quote, self-defense purposes, which is bullshit because we know that having access to a firearm actually makes you 30% more likely to be killed by a gun. So like what are we so afraid of? Why is there so much of a focus on these invisible enemies? If you’re truly trying to defend yourself, then you would keep yourself away from guns it seems, immediately following the ruling. New York Governor Kathy Hochul called the decision reckless and reprehensible adding this is not what New Yorkers want states’ rights.
Does everyone understand what a concealed weapon means? That you have no forewarning that someone can hide a weapon on them and go into our subways. Go into our grocery stores like stores up in Buffalo, New York where I’m from, go into a school in Parkland or Uvalde. This could place millions of New Yorkers in harm’s way. This decision isn’t just reckless, it’s reprehensible. It’s not what New Yorkers want. And we should have the right of determination of what we want to do in terms of our gun laws in our state.
Have you guys ever been on the subway? Like the New York City Subway, it is tight. It is a tight, hot, pizza eating rat infested metal tube that we as New Yorkers endure because like there is no other way to get around. And of course, it’s not just New York, it’s everywhere. We have to get louder. This is unacceptable. And it’s all part of the agenda from the gun lobby to try and make everyone think like, well, I guess I better get a gun too, fuck that. They’ve been doing this for over a century. This like a gun makes you safer. Everybody has to have a gun. I’ll tell you a fun story. This is one of my favorite stories about Congress. In, 1856 when a Republican Congressman wanted to carry their guns on the House floor, a Democratic Congressman named Preston Brooks beat the ever loving shit out of Charles Sumner on the House floor in front of the entire Congress, and he beat the shit out of him with his cane to prove that guns don’t make you safer. On another note, amidst all of these gun advocates, gloating about how they’ll carry anywhere and how guns make us safer, another senseless act of gun violence occurred and this time in our own TikTok community. Randon Lee was shot and killed in Prichard, Alabama. Randon was the son of beloved TikToker Ophelia Nichols, a.k.a, Mama Tot. He was murdered on the eve of his 19th birthday while he was pumping gas. Police are still looking for his killer. Affiliate tells us that they have to leads.
Okay, now that we got those two issues out of the way, it is time to talk about the thing we have all been thinking about and maybe even like avoiding to some level because when traumatic events happen, we go in shock. And that shock can manifest in many ways. One of them can be disassociation. And I know that was true for me. Certainly, it was like I heard the news. I had to put it on a shelf for a minute. And I just couldn’t face it. Because when you are surviving something, that is what you are doing. You are surviving it. It takes all of your energy, all of your thoughts And that’s what we’re doing right now, okay, we are surviving this. So, we’re going to reflect on where we are. And I’m going to remind you of what was said in the overturning opinion of Roe v. Wade. Without all of the extra scary stuff and speculation. We’re just going to talk about what happened, so that we can understand it, survive it and then we’ll think about maybe what we can do next. Decision number four that we’re talking about today, the Supreme Court overturns Roe v. Wade, the Supreme Court ruled that the Constitution makes no reference to abortion. And so this court interprets that there are no constitutional protections for the procedure. Writing for the majority, Justice Alito states that abortion is a quote, moral question. And the Constitution does not prohibit states from regulating or prohibiting abortion, insisting that the laws surrounding abortion be made at the state level. Last week’s decision will rapidly impact about half of all the states 13 states with trigger bands will prohibit abortion within 30 days. And in some of these states, abortion is already fully illegal. A couple of the states have pre roll bans still in place that could be reactivated and other states have bans blocked by the courts, but will likely act quickly to move ahead now that there’s no federal protection. The Washington Post has a great map that is tracking everything and when these abortion bans go into effect. So we’ll link to that in the show notes. That is some of the immediate impact of this decision. But at least in Clarence Thomas’s mind, this ruling could only be the beginning. He wrote a separate concurring opinion. And in it, he says the court should now reconsider other decisions, like the one that founded the right to contraception, or the one that founded the right to sex between consenting men, or the one that founded the right to same sex marriage. And he says that the court should correct the error it made in those cases. And what a bastard thing to say, what a shitty, terrible taunting thing to say, to put in writing, while folks are already dealing with the loss of bodily autonomy. Okay, you know what, I’m going to kick you while you’re down. Now, we’re also maybe going to configure marriage and other privacy rights. And I know some folks are like looking at all this and trying to figure out how it affects them. And it’s not so clear. We are all just processing a lot here. And I know that’s true, because you told me, I heard from so many of you, there are literally 1000s of voicemails, 1000s, sharing your anger, your frustrations, your fears and your real time reactions to the news that Roe v Wade had been overturned. And I am so grateful that you trusted me to be that outlet for you. Here’s some of what you had to say.
Speaker 2 12:56
I’m just one year old in college and I had an abortion probably two months ago now. It was probably the best decision I’ve ever made. And I have no regrets about it whatsoever. And I think that it needs to be made fully legal everywhere. It save my life.
As a woman who serves to defend and protect the Constitution of the United States. I now feel like all the trauma, all the mental, physical, emotional, trauma that I had to go through being a woman in the military was for nothing. My rights aren’t protected now and I served my country.
I just want to say that I’m not even angry anymore over Roe v Wade, it’s really just the disappointments just grief for the women who found that the baby’s gonna kill them but have to carried it and raise grief for the women who have to carry and risk their body because they’re rapists planted a seed and then grief for the children who are gonna get abused mentally and physically in the foster care system, because I was a child who grew up in the foster care system. And I was so excited to get out because I could make decisions as an adult. And now that I’m 20 years old, I’m 20, I’m the crosshairs of life in my future. I’m not ready to have a child and I can’t make that decision for my own body. I’m so irritated right now is an understatement, as a 22 year old woman, I never thought this day would come and yet here I am scared for my life of my choices. I will be moving and I don’t even know if I’m gonna have a choice of the state that I’m going to live. I am shaking with anger. I feel so betrayed by the nation that we live in, that which actively choose men and women who vote against us, who have think that they have such control of us. That we can’t even control ourselves. Half of this nation is now gone, because of the choice that they’ve made.
I’ve seen a lot of people talking about it, and I’m not the owner of a uterus, but like, my fucking soul, like ache for my friends, and my sisters and my family. And people close to me who need this, this freedom to have that choice, in your fucking body.
Speaker 6 16:01
Living in a red state is so difficult, and just the fact that it had to happen on my birthday, really add salt to the wound, because it’s just on my birthday, I lost the rights to my body, sort of lost the rights to me as an individual. But I’m getting through it, hopefully. So thank you.
Oh, as you can hear, we are all dealing with a lot of emotions, anger, despair, solitude, and there is just nothing harder than feeling alone. So I want to thank you again for trusting me to share in this painful journey with you, for immediately springing to action by joining in the petitions, calls to Congress and protests. We heard from so many of you, and we will play even more of your comments at the end of this show. After the break, what can you do with all that emotion and energy? I’m happy to welcome author therapist and grief expert, Claire Bidwell Smith, who’s going to talk with us about how we can effectively cope and manage everything that we’re feeling right now.
So, Claire Bidwell Smith is a therapist, renowned grief expert, and best-selling author. She is also the host of NEW DAY for Lemonada Media, which is now available three times a week on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. In fact, we’re going to do a little crossover here, this conversation will also appear in The New Day feed on Wednesday. Claire, thank you so much for joining me.
I’m glad to be here. Thanks for having me. Let’s get into it.
Let’s indeed, I knew that we had this interview, like when the decision came out, and I’m telling you like all people who wait to see their therapist, although, in this case, my guess I’m like, Oh, my God, I cannot wait to talk to somebody who is an expert in this terrible feeling that we’re all having. Yeah. You know, there’s like, no easy way to talk about the overturning of Roe v. Wade, in a way that can like actually capture the weight of the decision. How did you feel when Friday’s decision was announced?
Claire Bidwell-Smith 18:11
You know, we knew it was coming on one level. And then the actuality of it was just devastating. And you know, I think, you know, as someone who works in end of life and death and grief, you know, losses like that, too, you know, we can know someone is going to be dying of cancer, and we can think we’ve got our heads wrapped around it. And then it really happens. And we are floored in a way we didn’t expect and I think that this was like that for a lot of people.
Yeah, I was in the most surreal experience of my life at VidCon just surrounded by Tiktok influencer, like it could not be more unusual or vibrant or silly space to have got this news in. And folks were having a hard time like, putting their finger on like what it was they were feeling. It wasn’t exactly anger. And then it wasn’t exactly sadness. Is it right to say that it was grief? It was acollective loss?
Yeah, absolutely. It is grief. And I think it’s important that we let ourselves name it as such. Grief has so many emotions that come with it. But the feeling of grief is really, you know, mourning something that we’ve lost. And that feeling of loss in this case is very real. The anxiety and uncertainty, the fear that comes with what has happened and what is to come from this. There’s so much tied up in it. But I think if we skip over the grief part, we really do ourselves a disservice.
But I want to skip over the grief part, is the hardest part.
I know, I know, it’s much easier to feel angry, it’s easier to feel even afraid sometimes, but to really let ourselves steep and the sadness that comes with this, is hard. There’s a lot of reasons to be sad about this. There’s so much sadness, I mean, just the like the layers and the history and the years and what this means for so many people, to really let yourself feel that sadness is really hard. But it’s also really important, you know, I think we should let ourselves just so steeped in it, really feel it find support while we do that, be around other people who feel the same way, cry together, you know, it doesn’t mean we’re not going to take action, it doesn’t mean we’re not going to feel angry; it doesn’t mean we’re not going to grapple with anxiety. But really like letting yourself feel that initial wave of just grief is so important.
V Spehar 20:29
When I was at VidCon, there were so many female identifying folks who were like, taking it from one side to side of like, this is their body, this is going to be happening to them physically. But there was a lot of what we call like the TikTok boys with the cute haircuts and the thigh tattoos who were also asking me to like V, I feel like I don’t know, I feel like something bad happened to me too. And I was like it did it did happen to you too. Yeah. And they were talking about how they felt like a little bit of a loss of their youth. Like, they lost something they lost an option. They lost sort of like, and watching their faces, these young boys even understanding that they couldn’t put words to it, but that they also lost something and they didn’t know what to do what it was like, talk to other men about it. But for men, it can be difficult to talk about grief. Do you have any, like helpful hints for the guys out there?
Well, I’m glad to hear that they are talking about it and even when we can’t name it, you know that kind of ambiguous feeling of loss and not being able to pinpoint exactly why or what it is just being able to express that find other people who are also kind of feeling similarly. I think so often we try to skip past that kind of stuff. We try to bottle it up men, especially culturally are taught to do that. So the fact that they weren’t Talking about it and naming it is so is so clear and so important. I think that everyone should feel threatened by this, you know, everyone should feel threatened by this. And that’s really scary to feel. Oh, those poor guys.
I know, just the whole the whole group because it was such a young group of people and they just, it was like watching a wave crash on them, because they maybe never really thought about it that much before that moment. So there’s something that happens to our mental health collectively, right? When a single event has such a big effect on so many people. Can you talk about, like what this means? I mean, we know what it means for like our community for our friends and family we’re talking to but as a nation, what this can mean for people?
Claire Bidwell-Smith 22:28
I think it’s very triggering on so many levels. You know, I think this kind of thing activates past traumas, it activates so many other ways that we’ve had rights taken away that we have lost bodily autonomy. I mean, there’s just so many layers of it. And so, as a nation as a culture, we are feeling it and we’re spinning out into a new place, right, just as when the pandemic hit, and all of a sudden, culturally, we all went into a new space, this is going to have a similar effect. Plus, we’re still like in the throes of the pandemic. So it’s like another setback to our mental health, right, we haven’t climbed out of this hole, we haven’t climbed out of the Trump pole, we haven’t climbed out of, you know, like, there’s just, there’s just been so many, you know, national traumas that we’ve been going through, and we can’t seem to catch our breath between them. And so we just keep going back into these spaces that I think it’s a big mental health concern. You know, I think the anxiety levels in the country are skyrocketing. I think depression. I think hopelessness is something that a lot of people are experiencing. And the division is really making it difficult too, to heal.
You said exactly what I was thinking to ask you about next, like, while many of us experienced this, sort of collective grief, this sadness, this confusion, the shock, there were a lot of folks who were celebrating it, and I would even say gloating about it. And that almost hurt more in some ways, because it was like this silent, like you passed.
Claire Bidwell-Smith 24:00
Or some people, those were family members. For some of us who are grieving, our family members are celebrating, you know, and that how scary is that? How hard is that to grapple with? I can’t tell you how many clients I have, over the last four or five years who have gone through major family riffs. You know, and this is going to cause more of that. It’s so hard.
I mean, just on that point, before we get more into, like how we heal or process this. But on that point of, you know, you’re hearing people gloat maybe your family member or maybe it’s your dad, maybe it’s your husband, for some people were telling me like their boyfriends were celebrate, like there was there was just like bad stuff to it. How do they, how can you protect yourself from that?
I think you have to get really boundaries. I mean, I think this is why we’re making choices of who we need to spend time with, who we need to be talking to where we need to be leading for support. I don’t think we should be subjecting ourselves to people who, you know, are really opening these wounds for us who are activating us and triggering us in this moment, we’re already so vulnerable, or grieving or anxious, or angry. And so I think just getting really serious about the boundaries, no matter the cost, I mean, the cost is really going to come at ourselves if we don’t take care of ourselves and keep those boundaries in place.
Yeah, when the news broke, we were just expected to keep working like everything else, right? Just keep pushing just okay, you’re gonna have to put that on the shelf and turn it on, because it’s time to clock in or do whatever it is that you’re supposed to do. Just no time to process what was happening. Can you talk a little about like what that does to your body and to your mind?
I mean, I don’t think we can do that. I think that the I think that the stress level it puts on us is enormous, I think the sense of incongruence How can we just go about our day when we’re reeling from this? I think we have to take a mental health day, when something like this happens. I think we have to take care of ourselves. I think we have to speak up about it too, you know, and we have to say so you know, I can’t be here right now. I can’t be here today. Here’s why. And really, really have some compassion for ourselves. And just do those self-care things. That sounds so basic. I know like they’re so eye rolling, right? Like rest, limit your news intake, do some meditation to walk in nature. But seriously, well, we have to we can’t keep going like nothing’s happened.
V Spehar 26:14
I don’t roll my eyes at it. Because I always forget, like, no matter how many times I go to therapy, like twice a week and I still forget and I’m like, oh right, go outside. Go outside, breathe some air. Go look at a tree. Yeah, but what when you can’t do that, do you have any kind of like, what about for the folks who can’t afford to or just aren’t in a job where they can do that thing? Like I think a lot about like, I’ve been culinary following chefs and restaurant folks like, what can they do if like, you have to be somewhere else but you also have to give yourself like inside quiet time.
Yeah, I mean, I think if there is someone in your environment in that situation that you can and just let them know how you’re feeling so that you don’t feel like you’re so bottled up or you’re hiding it, then that’s great if you can’t, and you just have to keep moving. I think getting really present, you know, not letting your mind spin out, bringing your thoughts back in. I mean, whatever you can do to get really present, whether you’re noticing the temperature in the air, or you’re just taking different kinds of breaths, or you’re turning your thoughts back to a positive memory, you can come back to the grief and the anger and the rage and the anxiety later. But in those moments, just to take care of yourself, like come up with a mantra. I love mantras like, I repeat them in my head all the time when I freak out, you know, something just like I’m safe right now. I’m loved, like and just keep repeating those things until you’re in a space where you can safely grieve.
Go have a good hard cry in the walk in freezers. That was always my favorite. Crying is my favorite. I cry all the time.
It’s a great stress reliever.
Is there any truth to the fact I heard one time? So if it’s not true, just please lie to me. Because I’ve been living on this. That crying resets your emotional equilibrium.
I haven’t heard that. Exactly. But it makes sense. It sounds really good. You should hold on to that one. And it is truly a great stress reliever. It’s really helpful for your nervous system. So I think crying, it’s good when we bottle it up. I mean, you know how your body feels when you’re trying not to cry? I don’t think that’s a good plan.
V Spehar 28:08
Yeah, no tension headaches for anyone having you as an expert guide on this grief journey that we’re about to go into? Can you show us a little magic ball of like, what has happened historically, in situations like this, like how long does it take to start to feel like you’re back in your body or what happens next?
I think grief is really different for everyone. You know, it’s it doesn’t have a set timeline, it doesn’t have a series of emotions that you go through in a formulaic way. So grief really manifests differently for everyone. It takes longer than most people think. But I think one of the things that I really find interesting about grief is that it can be very transformative. Because when we let ourselves grieve, we really have to ask ourselves to look at pieces of who we are and pieces of who we want to be, and what really matters to us. And so from there, once we start to explore those answers, we can become the person that we need to become in order to make the changes that we want to see.
Now we lose a little bit of ignorance, when we’re faced with grief, we don’t get to just kind of like those guys talked about. I know, they were like, wait a minute, I don’t get to just sort of live in a bubble of it’s not going to happen because it happened. So now I do.
And that’s sad to hear, you know, but also if I think about it for me, like every hard, terrible thing that’s ever happened to me, has made me the person I am today. You know it they were horrendous to go through. I wouldn’t wish that on anyone. Yet at the same time. I’ve grown so much each time. And I’m grateful for the knowledge I have now the compassion I have now the strength and wisdom that those things have brought me.
If there was something that you could tell folks right now, who are struggling with this news, what would it be?
Just be kind to yourself, you know, like, give yourself permission to grieve, like give yourself permission to just double over and sob or whatever it’s going to look like or permission to spend all day in bed. You know, we will get to the action and the anger and all the things there. It’s coming for sure there’s going to be a tidal wave of it. But right now, like let yourself grieve and let yourself heal and take care of yourself and just be kind to yourself.
V Spehar 30:23
Thank you so much, Claire, I just appreciate you making the time to join us and hold our hand through this. Claire Bidwell Smith hosts the podcast New Day and shares great information and tips like that every Monday, Wednesday and Friday. And we had so many messages from folks, so we’re going to share some more of those voicemails. That’s what you can expect up next. Claire, thank you so much for taking the time with me.
Thank you, V. I appreciate you.
As I mentioned before, last week, we reached out to ask you how you were coping with the Supreme Court news. And wow, did we hear back, the voicemail box was flooded with 1000s of calls from y’all over the weekend, voicing your concerns with the Supreme Court’s recent actions. And so I wanted to end today’s show with a few messages that really expressed your passion, and some visions for how we can move forward. I am right here with you.
Just calling to say thank you for all of your information and updates. But as a father of three amazing young girls, this new news is just disgusting. But living in Chicago and having the safety of a blue state. I just wanted to know if there were any websites or things coming together to get women from red states who need to get to blue states, connected with people who can make that happen. So, if you know of any resources that I can get in contact with to offer anything. I’d love to do that.
Speaker 9 32:13
I really just want to understand how do we expand SCOTUS? Like, is there a way for the voters to be able to make a larger Supreme Court than what we have now I don’t know how that works. So if you could please do a TikTok on what we as citizens need to do to get more Supreme Court justices so that it balances things a little better. I would so appreciate it. Thank you.
Thank you all so much, again, for leaving me those voicemails humped up gonna be listening to them for quite a while, taking notes just trying to be helpful, you know, in whatever way we decide. We can show up in this world. It’s gonna take months, it’s gonna take years for us to get back what we lost. And I will be with you every step of the way. Listening to your stories and trying to find better answers. Be sure to tune into this Friday’s episode when we’re going to be chatting with some of my military pals to get an insider’s look at life in service. You can also leave me a voicemail, that voicemail box is staying open and we will keep checking it. You could talk about how you feel about Roe or for anything else that’s on your mind. That number is 612-293-8550. Also, please subscribe to Lemonada premium on Apple podcasts. Follow me at @underthedesknews and take care of yourselves. Thanks. Thanks for showing up today.
V INTERESTING is a Lemonada Media Original. Our producers are Rachel Neel, Xorje Olivares, Martín Macías, Jr. And Dani Matias. Executive Producers are Stephanie Wittels Wachs and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Mixing and Scoring is by Brian Castillo, Johnny Evans and Ivan Kuraev. music is by Seth Applebaum. Please help others find the show by rating and reviewing wherever you listen and follow us across all social platforms at @VitusSpehar and @UnderTheDeskNews, also, @LemonadaMedia. If you want more be interesting, subscribe to Lemonada premium only on Apple podcasts.