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Which comic book publisher is superior: DC or Marvel? The co-hosts of the X-Ray Vision podcast duke it out this week with Rosie Knight on the side of DC and Jason Concepcion arguing for Marvel. And Ronald Young Jr. has the near-impossible task of picking a winner. Jason argues that Marvel is a more modern type of comic book experience and the characters are more grounded in reality. Rosie says that DC is arguably the originator of superhero comics whose characters have become cultural figureheads. Which way will Ronald rule this week?

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Transcript

SPEAKERS

Jason Concepcion, Rosie Knight, Speaker 1, Ronald young Jr.

Ronald young Jr.  00:06

Superhero movies are unavoidable. They’ve been around for decades. But what’s happened in the last two or three decades specifically has been quite the moment in film and nerd culture, whether it’s 2002 Spider Man or 2008 The Dark Knight. Oh, and of course, the entirety of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, beginning with 2008 Iron Man. These films have captivated audiences. But beyond the films, the origin stories of the heroes that many of us have come to love are built in the world of comic books, comic books that have spurred more than the live action spectacles we’ve seen on screen, from animated films and television series to beloved graphic novels, and let’s not forget about the merchandising so many toys and underwear and notebooks and pencils, if you can imagine it, the DC and Marvel brands can put a superhero or villain on it, but which brand is better? Is it the original and Rocksteady DC that brought us Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman, or the incredibly innovative Marvel, which brought us Black Panther, Captain America and the X Men Marvel or DC? We make that decision once and for all, right here and right now on pop culture Debate Club. I’m Ronald young Jr.

 

Ronald young Jr.  01:30

So let’s meet our panelists for the day. Representing DC is a writer for publications like Esquire, Hollywood Reporter And Nerdist. She also co hosts a nerd culture podcast called X Ray Vision at iHeart. Hello and welcome Rosie Knight.

 

Rosie Knight  01:44

Hello, thank you so much for having me. I’m very excited to be here.

 

Ronald young Jr.  01:48

Hey, I’m glad you could make it also joining us. Repping Marvel is writer and Emmy award winning host of the hit digital series NBA desktop, who also co hosts the hit podcast X ray vision with Rosie. Hello and welcome to the show, Jason Concepcion.

 

Jason Concepcion  02:03

Thank you so much for having me. What a delight to be here.

 

Ronald young Jr.  02:05

Yeah, I’m excited about this. It’s funny. We were just talking off Mike saying, is this conversation about DCEU versus MCU? And I think your your enthusiasm, both of y’all was very different when that was the conversation.

 

Jason Concepcion  02:22

I think we both agree strongly corporate, the entire corporate umbrella.

 

Rosie Knight  02:26

Also as well. I would just say, if you’ve listened to X ray vision, I am definitely like a DC EU defender, because I do think there’s something good about it, but it would never have it would never beat the MCU. So this is definitely like, this is like 100 years of beef between these two companies. So we’re going all the way back.

 

Ronald young Jr.  02:45

The funny thing is, I think the DCEU is bad enough that even the best parts of it are dragged down by the worst parts of it, which is unfortunate.

 

Rosie Knight  02:55

I wouldn’t say that’s probably how Warner Brothers feels too, which is why we’re about to get a brand new relaunch with James Gunn and PS, our friend  changes around the corner.

 

Ronald young Jr.  03:04

I’m ready at the DCE. I’m ready right just in time for superhero fatigue at the movies. Can y’all tell me how X Ray vision came to be?

 

Jason Concepcion  03:12

Oh gosh, we both love nerd culture stuff. I wanted to continue podcasting in that vein, after I left the company I was working for previously, where I did a podcast called binge mode, we covered a bunch of nerdy stuff, including Game of Thrones, Harry Potter, Star Wars, etc, and tested with Rosie, and I was just like, this is perfect. This is great and an important thing to do, I think, when you’re trying to collaborate, at least, for me, is, does the person you’re hoping to collaborate with know more than you, which Rosie knows more than me? And so that is that always makes me feel really confident whenever we get into the recording studio. I’m like, Okay, I know Rosie knows what she’s talking about, at the very least.

 

Rosie Knight  04:01

The same about you, but yeah, and it was, it just ever since the first time we tested. And Jason was like, Hey, I heard you do a podcast about giant size x men number one. And I said, Hey, man, that’s, that’s my stuff. That’s what I love. And, and it’s funny, because we’re actually both big Marvel lovers, like that was definitely what we bonded on, especially X Men and kind of the classic Marvel Comics. So it’s funny to have us on both sides today, like on fighting, because we’re very big agree, as a lot of the podcasts, like, man, you made such a good point there. Like, I really agree with you. So it’s gonna be, it’s gonna be funny to do this, but definitely I do have an affinity for DC. So it’s gonna be fun to kind of battle this one out.

 

Ronald young Jr.  04:43

I love this like these are such wholesome stories. With all of that being said, are y’all ready to fight?

 

Rosie Knight  04:51

We shared our wholesome origin stories, and now we’re gonna battle.

 

Ronald young Jr.  04:56

This is friendly competition, and the stakes are low, but I. Need y’all to really go after each other here. All right, this is a game, yes, of course, Jason, give me your opening argument. Marvel is better than DC.

 

Jason Concepcion  05:09

The reason that Marvel is better than DC is because it is a more modern both in style, sensibility and themes, type of comic book experience. Marvel characters are more grounded. They’re not gods. If they are billionaires, they have real people problems. Spider Man is a young guy with constant money problems. A Fantastic Four is a family, and they’re always bickering. It’s those kinds of dramatic notes that is the base that allows Marvel to create these stories that feel at once fantastical and very high level and wonderful and adventurous and wild, but have that relatable hook where you understand where a character like spider man or Daredevil or any of the X Men are coming from, despite the fact that they maybe have completely different experiences and clearly different existential problems than you might have.

 

Ronald young Jr.  06:16

Rosie, give me your opening argument. Why is Jason wrong? Is DC better than Marvel?

 

Rosie Knight  06:24

Jason, thank you for the perfect layout, because you’re right. Marvel is Marvel is more modern. Marvel is more contemporary. Marvel has those human problems, but DC is arguably the originator of superhero and superhero comics. Superman came out in 1938 first appearance Batman, 1939 the same year that Marvel was even being founded as we know it, they have established these God like heroes, that have gone on to basically become cultural figureheads. You have arguably the most famous female superhero in Wonder Woman. You have the most recognizable heroes, I would say, even post the MCU and Batman and Superman, the iconography of the heroes have become legendary within themselves. And I think in that way, DC cannot be ignored for the impact and innovation that it represents. It even originated, you know, cross media adaptations with the Superman radio serials. DC, arguably, we can get into small but created the multiverse. JSA had a shared universe in the 40s where they were referencing each other. So Marvel is more modern, but I would say that DC laid the groundwork for what we know as superhero comics.

 

Ronald young Jr.  07:39

Jason, what is more important, the groundwork or the refining of the work that exists?

 

Jason Concepcion  07:45

You hit on it Ron, it much like in Billy shakes, is Julius Caesar when you know Brutus gave the first speech, but then was one upped by Mark Anthony, I think that’s that, to me, is what gives Marvel the edge. They saw the track that DC had laid with a shared universe with their superhero teams. I mean, DC pioneered the superhero team, and they said, Well, what’s a way to make this what’s a way to make this more graspable, to make this have more impact? Because in the wake of World War Two, all the soldiers coming home, that superhero thing, it kind of was going through a lull, and what Marvel came up with their pioneering idea was this relatability thing. So I think you hit on it, Ron with your question, I think it’s important to refine there’s a reason why we’re not driving studio bakers, why we’re driving, you know, cars with LCD screens and all these other things, because things get better. And I think, and I think Marvel coming after DC had the opportunity to learn from truly a legendary company and put their own spin on it, which I would argue, as is my task today, is an improvement.

 

Rosie Knight  09:06

Yeah, I think that that is absolutely fair. And I think you make some very important points about how these companies have throughout history, basically learned from each other and bet at each other. And I would say that you were right in the 60s. You are looking at a time when Marvel is at their peak, like they are introducing characters that we still love today, right? But I will say that if you want to talk about maturity and modernity, I would say that if we skip forward a little and we talk about what we’ve learned from each other, you’re looking at in the 80s, DC looked at what Marvel had done and said, you’re making these characters grounded, you’re making them interesting, you’re making them relatable. And they said, We’re going to do that to the nth degree, where we’re actually going to end up changing comic books forever with stories like watchmen Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons, with FIFA vendetta with with Sandman, you know, with the. Ago, line that essentially said, Well, what if these stories were for adults again? What if, like in the early days of Batman, when he had a gun in the 40s, what and they were poke noirs, what if we took this back to the original audience and we said, hey, you want to read a comic that dissects and defends and critiques the nature of superior comics all than one read Watchmen. I mean, there’s probably no comic that changed the landscape more, and I do think that in that way, DC learned from what Marvel was doing and this constant competition and ended up starting a new wave of contemporary comics that reinstated a more adult audience and said, hey, you guys […]

 

Ronald young Jr.  10:45

Jason, even if what Rosie said is 100% true.

 

Rosie Knight  10:52

Even just hypothetically.

 

Ronald young Jr.  10:54

She’s still largely talking about the written works of DC, and what that does in terms of comic book sales and book sales moving stuff forward, however, we know that now a lot of the ways that people are interacting with heroes, both DC and Marvel, are not through comic books. We know that a lot of the driving of the popularity has to do with through film and television. And in a lot of ways, it feels like Marvel may have gotten there first. How important is that?

 

Jason Concepcion  11:24

I think it’s, I think it’s a crucial part of this, because, as you noted, the the actual comics arm has become something of an R D factory for these other properties, whether it be video games, television shows and movies, which have been, you know, much talked about, certainly over the last 10 years, the comic book movie has become something akin to the modern day Western and its capture of market share In the studios both of these companies, their interior cannons, the realities and the shared universes are naughty in their own way, but I think Marvel’s more streamlined universe has allowed it to more easily vertically integrate than DC. I don’t think it’s an accident that Marvel, which has a more unified canon and has really never been hard reset, has been able to put a shared universe out into movie theaters with relative ease while DC, which I mean some of their most famous crossover events are based on the fact that its interior timeline, because of the stop, start nature of the company and different launches and different creators, because that internal reality doesn’t always match up. Come the 80s, they needed to kind of reset, and so they did, you know, these various crisis crossovers in order to kind of reset the canon. And I don’t think it’s an accident that when you look at the wider energy entertainment space, where DC and Marvel play in both in TV shows and movies, that DCS is quite fragmented, that you’ve got some movies that count as canon, and other ones that do, and some that may or may not. And then the TV shows, we don’t know, whereas in Marvel, like the comic books, the TV shows count for the most part, okay, the movies count again for the most part. But largely, all of that stuff counts within the shared universe because of that more streamlined universe that they started with.

 

Rosie Knight  13:46

Yeah, I do agree with you. Marvel is the MCU is one of the most important things that ever happened in superhero at all, and super storytelling at all. This is one of the most important things that ever happened. But as I am, want to do in this conversation, because I have to lay the groundwork for how this all happened. I have to take you guys back to 1966 when they released Batman, which was connected to the Batman TV series, very popular, but really the most important thing here is Superman in 1978 which won an Oscar, was nominated for Oscars, became a huge success. Richard Donna’s film, obviously, that launched three very successful, lesser, lesser, the fourth one, but three relatively successful sequels and a very unsuccessful Supergirl sequel, which is very fun if you love a bad movie. Guys, go check that out. But then what we really need to talk about as well is 1989 Batman, because the MCU does not exist without Tim Burton’s Batman, without the massive success, without the character actor, controversial casting of Michael Keaton, which becomes the first kind of fan casting that people hate, and they and they are writing letters to the studio, and it establishes a. Lot of the toxic fandom that we deal with today. Now, of course, I am a Batman return lover. It was also very successful. But then you get to Batman Forever, Batman and Robin, Steele, 2000 and force Catwoman. DC did fall off, but I will make a slight argument here, which is at this time, DC was actually making unbelievable animated movies when Marvel still couldn’t even get a live action film off the ground. Now, obviously we’d had blade, but that was not recognized properly as a Marvel Studios film as it was R rated, even though it was their first film. But I think that until you get to that Iron Man 2008 which, by the way, is the same year the Dark Knight came out, which won two Oscars, and obviously was like this huge cultural success. I really think that’s when the modern MCU begins to take over from DC. Now I will say, when we’re talking about the DC EU, Jason, you make, as always, fantastic points. This is why we are the co host. DC is a fractured space. It’s had multiple crisis, it’s had rebirth, and the movies do reflect that. But I will say I truly do believe there is a freedom that was given. Whether it was James Wan’s Aquaman, the most still the most successful DC movie of all time, I believe $1.2 billion whether it was the fantastic Kathy and birds of prey, which is one of the best superior movies ever made, whether it was James Gunn’s Suicide Squad, which did not make very much money at all, but was so fantastic that obviously let the company execs think, oh, maybe this is a guy who we could have in charge of our more streamlined world that they’re going to launch next year. I think DC is nowhere near as consistent as Marvel, but I do think that their freedom and lack of commitment post the disappointing Justice League debacle that we had did lead to some really, really special, interesting, unique films, and I’m interested to see in 2025 when James Gunn’s universe truly starts with Superman, whether fans will finally get that streamlined, more MCU influence DC Universe that I think they’ve always wanted. But for now, I am grateful for the messiness of crisis that kind of left us with these beautiful gems of originality.

 

Ronald young Jr.  17:23

We’ll be back with more Pop Cculture Debate Club after this break.

 

Ronald young Jr.  18:54

Rosie, when we think about something like DC being first, and you think about the idea of the recognizability of the characters. You know who Batman is, you know who Superman is. I believe that’s true. However, I am 40, and it occurred to me that I now live in a world where there are a lot of young people who grew up not seeing, uh, seeing one great Batman movie, and a lot of great Spider Man movies, a couple of great, uh, one, at least one great Black Panther movie, a bunch of Iron Mans, a bunch of team ups, a bunch of people that are growing up with these characters that you and I maybe didn’t actually grow up with we like we were acquainted with them as adults. So in terms of recognizability of the characters, have you noticed in your travels that there has been a shift of people maybe recognizing Batman as much as they’re recognizing Captain America, Black Panther or Iron Man, just because of the time period that we’re in right now?

 

Rosie Knight  19:46

Outside of this delightfully fun debate, this is honestly, like one of the best things in the world for people like me and Jason is like, we’re growing up in an era where the X Men, what can you pick up off your um. We would call it the corner shop. What can you pick up from the corner shop? What issue can you randomly find? Like you’re discovering these characters in part, you’re watching Batman, The Animated Series, and you’re learning a little bit, but you don’t know when the next episode is going to be on. So we grew up in a way where we were discovering these characters bit by bit, but we have now gotten to see a world where kids know who Iron Man is. Kids know who Wiccan is? Scarlet Witch’s son. He’s a you know, kids are growing up in a world where characters that were once seen as be or C list, which obviously Marvel had to use because they didn’t have the rights to those big characters at the time, like the Fantastic Four, like spider man, like the X Men, they now care about them just as much as someone who is 40 or 50 might care about Batman. To me, that’s actually a joy. And I have always been somebody who absolutely loves the lesser loved characters. So the fact that we have a Thunderbolts movie coming out is just as joyful to me as the fact that we had a Suicide Squad movie that had like, Arm Fall Off Boy, and you know the most some of the most ridiculous characters ever, weasel Calendar Man. But while Marvel has been making these huge swings, this game changing, billion dollar franchise, DC has been laying the groundwork in living rooms with mums and families to understand what a multiverse is. How can two characters exist in the same world? Because of the arrow verse, because of shows like legends of tomorrow, which was also incredibly forward thinking when it came to queer representation and inclusivity. Now a mom just knows what the multiverse is, and she knows how a character can be from two different universes. And, you know, DC was put the first trans superhero on stream with Nia now’s dreamer. But I do think that DC has almost helped the Marvel Universe, simply by just consistently being there as an extra thing that people can look to. Oh, you got to wait two years for the next MCU movie, when there wasn’t the MCU TV show, when Disney, plus didn’t exist. You could watch the arrow verse, something that ran for a decade and introduced people again to B, C, list characters. There’s still people whose favorite character is green arrow or Black Canary, because of those shows.

 

Jason Concepcion  22:18

In the TV realm DC has been leading, and you could already continues to lead. I think it’s certainly in the animated space. DC has been cleaning Marvel’s clock consistently for years and continues to with no end in sight. And those are important engines. The thing that Marvel’s been able to do, generally, is find those areas of success and plug it into the larger structure so that that strategy that led to the success in a sector can benefit the entire structure. DC has struggled to do that as of yet. You know, it’s it was not that long ago that you would could go on a message board and find fans lamenting the fact that DC animated creators are not just given the keys to create more for live action TV or even for movies. And I think that’s still a criticism that you’ll find at certain times. Marvel has, by and large, not had that problem. And I’ll, and I’ll finish my statement with this. I think just as we acknowledge that the, you know, the top three, or even three of the top five, most famous, most recognizable comic book characters in all of the world are likely DC characters. You know, you don’t even have to read a comic book to know who Batman and Superman and Wonder Woman are. I think it’s a measure of Marvel success that characters like Captain America and Iron Man who were widely derided in the in the mid aughts, when Kevin Feige and Marvel was starting to try and put this all together in the movie space, widely derided as B and C list characters are now, I would not say as famous or as recognizable as Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, but within the ballpark of recognizability across the globe. And I think that’s it. That is a measure of success.

 

Ronald young Jr.  24:31

I think we are three nerds, the three of us, and I would say they’re on the nerd spectrum. And I’m more of a casual, movie, television nerd. I don’t do a lot of comic reading. I have a lot of comic books, but I don’t like spend a lot of time reading them. With that being said, in terms of recognizability, I’m still wondering, do you think that either, even in this conversation, the three of us have any bias when it comes to who’s actually more recognizable in terms of stock rising now? Because I would be curious. Know, if, like, just because we know it’s Batman us and we’re like, of course it’s Batman. I’m born in 84 of course it’s Batman. I was I remember when the 89 Batman came out. I remember when the Dark Knight came out. I remember how I felt when I watched the Dark Knight. Batman is important, but that may just not be the case for someone who is 24, 25, 26 even 30.

 

Rosie Knight  25:19

I think that Robert Downey, Jr, Tony Stark Iron Man is the closest thing that we have to like a contemporary recognizability of a Batman. And I think the reason that’s so unbelievable is because that is not a character who had that cultural cash.

 

Jason Concepcion  25:36

I’m sorry you said. You said Iron Man. I think you meant to say, Dr Doom?

 

Rosie Knight  25:41

Don’t do it to us. No soon to be Dr Doom, right? I think, I do think that he is up there as and in a much, much shorter time and almost as recognizable figure as Batman. I will say, I do think Batman is still relevant and recognizable. Because what DC has always done, whether it was the Underoos in the 60s and 70s, the Halloween costumes that Marvel also, you know, took part in in like the very famous Spider Man costumes and stuff, there’s always been, as they call it, I believe, toyetic. There has always been something very toyetic about Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman. Those toys have always been in the Five Below. They’ve always been in the Big Lots. You could always get a cheap you could even get a cheap Aquaman toy, who’s definitely another, I would say, you know, James Wan did the closest thing that the MCU did by taking that character who was derided uncool, the butt of many jokes, and making him the lead of the most successful DC movie that they’ve ever had. And for me, the change is actually positive. Like, I might not be winning my argument anymore, but, like, I would rather that kids were excited about Black Panther than they were about Batman. You know, like Black Panther is the book where Billy Graham, the first black artist and black writer on a Marvel book, debuted with these unbelievable, beautiful title pages, this incredible work, alongside Don McGregor. And I think, like, I would rather live in a world where that is happening, and because of that, and because of the success of stuff like Black Panther, that has forced DC, who are already in a good space when it came to inclusivity, but it’s forced them to do more and to think more in that way. And I just, I’m always happy when that kind of stuff happens. I would also say we live in an incredible time now, because I think the thing that is really giving us all the way as being quite old, is the fact that we’re even having this conversation, or bringing this kind of idea up, of one of Wonder Woman DC. There are kids now who can go into Target and they’re buying, like a punk storm figure from X Men 97 or they’re getting, they do these Spider Man toys now where you can get, like, it’s the Green Goblin, but he’s like a cute kid in a car. Like, I think the way that kids are interacting with this stuff on YouTube, they are actually learning so much more than we were at their age, that I think their tastes are so much more varied than Marvel or DC, or even, you know, the fact that we’re even considering, like, who is more recognizable Iron Man, which I think to many people, I’d say anyone under the age of 20, you’re probably looking at someone who values Robert Downey, Jr as Iron Man more. But I stand by for this specific argument. I think that the stuff that paved the way is important, because I do truly believe that the MCU doesn’t exist without DC, it’s movie catalog, so I would say that would be my argument for this.

 

Ronald young Jr.  28:47

We’ll be back with more PCDC after this break.

 

Speaker 1  29:32

Jason and we’re getting this is our last question before we get to closing arguments. Jason, if you had to pick one Marvel representative to fight a DC representative of Rosie’s choosing. Who do you choose? And you might be at a disadvantage, because you have to say it first. You have to pick one champion from Marvel. They have to face the DC champion. Who Rosie will pick. Who do you pick?

 

Jason Concepcion  30:55

Can I are we allowed to pick like, villains and heroes? Anybody you want to pick like? We can’t pick like, like, like the Beyonder, right? Like, super guy, pick anybody.

 

Ronald young Jr.  31:05

Anyone the Marvel? Anyone under the Marvel umbrella.

 

Jason Concepcion  31:09

Okay, I am going to pick. Gosh, I’m gonna pick Professor X, just for the ability to know it what the enemy is thinking, and to turn them into a drooling, uh, baby within an instant by projecting his his mind bolts at them. I’m not a great man overall.

 

Ronald young Jr.  31:39

Yeah, after X Men 97 I’ll never support Professor X, ever.

 

Jason Concepcion  31:44

Not a good man.

 

Rosie Knight  31:45

It was really me and Jason were very happy because X Men 97 really promoted like our anti Charles Xavier, flawed,

 

Ronald young Jr.  31:52

Garbage, Magneto was right.

 

Rosie Knight  31:57

Magneto was right, baby.

 

Ronald young Jr.  31:59

All right. Jason, you pick Professor X, okay, Rosie, who do you pick?

 

Rosie Knight  32:02

I am going to go for I’m gonna go for a classic, just because I’ve been leaning on them so much. I’m gonna go for Batman, but he doesn’t have any powers. But that man, another not so great person, flawed character. When he was working with the Justice League, he literally created like, fail safe plans to take down every single member of the Justice League. And he had, like, portfolios and schemes and booby traps and all these ideas. And I feel like if he was going to have to face down against Charles Xavier, or even knew there was a possibility of a Charles Xavier, like character, and seeing this, he’s like, fought dark side and stuff, I feel like he would be someone who would be very prepared. He would find some kind of special Kevlar that stopped him getting mind read. But also, I think it’s a good representation of these two sides of the argument we’ve been having where, like, yeah, Charles Xavier represents something new and exciting, and this, like, especially giant sized version, this kind of blast through of Marvel popularity in the 70s and 80s. And I think Batman still represents that, like, classic iconography, the cow, the kind of like, could he just punch Charles Xavier before Charles Xavier could get to him? Maybe he’s pretty big. Like, who knows?

 

Jason Concepcion  33:22

This is the classic, Batman fan argument.

 

Ronald young Jr.  33:25

He’s prep time.

 

Rosie Knight  33:30

I’m like, Have you also seen in the new absolute Batman? He’s just really, really thick, like, he could just punch him really hard, and he’s got an ax in his chest. But, yeah, I think that’s, I think that’s a fun, a fun choice for this particular argument.

 

Ronald young Jr.  33:49

Let’s get to closing arguments you have. Yes, we’ll say 15 to 20 seconds to close it out, and we’ll start with you. Rosie, DC is better than Marvel.

 

Rosie Knight  33:59

Okay,  I’m gonna go specific. I do believe something that we, I didn’t really get to cover, is like, DC is for the weirdos, the monster lovers, their Swamp Thing, Phantom stranger, Constantine, famous, you know, Scottish magician who loves the occult. He’s just wonderful. You got the Doom Patrol. It’s a team of monsters. You are Ambush Bug. You got arms full off. Boy, I think that there is something magical about weird monsters. It’s the spooky season. So I’m going specific, because I’ve already used all of my arguments up. But if you want something weird and you want to celebrate the strangeness from Sandman to Watchmen, DC is the place to go.

 

Ronald young Jr.  34:36

Wonderful closing argument, Jason, you have 15 to 20 seconds. Marvel is better than DC hit me.

 

Jason Concepcion  34:44

Marvel is better than DC. We could talk about the movies. We could talk about the upswing in the recognizability of their various characters. We could talk about the cohesive, unified universe, but I’m gonna. To lean on something that’s coming, which is the X Men, they’re coming. They’re coming. They’re powerful. Social commentary, the idea and the really vital question of whether extremism in pursuit of diversity could ever be a bad thing, those are actual questions that I think people are grappling with. And the fact that the X Men are going to be coming to screens and TV screens near you in the near future, gives Marvel the ability to maintain what I would argue is already a significant edge in this competition. With all due respect to DC, a company whose works I value and respect.

 

Ronald young Jr.  35:51

Are y’all ready for my ruling?

 

Rosie Knight  35:52

Let’s do it.I’m ready.

 

Ronald young Jr.  35:55

The good thing is, I like from the way y’all talk about this, I could tell that there are no losers here. So it doesn’t matter which way this goes. I think you will both agree. What I do think it comes down to, for me, is the argument of better, improving or first. And I think it, a lot of it comes down to that. For me, a lot of what you argued, Rosie was that DC did it first. DC did it first. They did this first. You pointed to a lot of that. And Jay said, You pointed to a lot of refinement. We refined this better. It got better, all of that, which I think was valid. But I had to kind of detach the fact that I like Marvel more than I like DC. I had to detach that from my mind to listen to the words that Rosie was saying. And when you talked about V for Vendetta and the watchman specifically, I remember what happened in here. Was like, I forgot that was DC, because it was so well done. And when I think about the watchman television series, which you did not even mention, which just blew me out of the water in terms of, that’s how you make modern, modern television. That’s how you do it. You do what season, you leave us wedding more, and you make it the best thing that I’ve probably ever seen. In a lot of cases. I think DC has a lot of very good entries in pop culture. It is desegmented and it is completely messy. I think Marvel the MCU has been eating DC use lunch for years now. And I think we can all agree that that is the case. The one thing I did also kind of struggle with was the idea of the recognizability of the characters. I have this argument with my friend Curtis, where he’s like, look, it doesn’t matter Batman’s Batman. You don’t understand. And I can’t get him because he has very concrete opinions. I can’t get him to move on the fact that it doesn’t matter what me and him, people who are in our 40s and aging up think is the superhero movie to watch, because eventually we’re not going to be the block of folks that they’re catering to anymore. And I’m sorry, but if you watched Avengers in game and saw how remembered how it felt to watch cat pick up that hammer, you know that something different is happening with this generation of children today. So if we were just talking MCU versus DC EU, I would say MCU won this debate, but Rosie, you bring up such good points in terms of how far DC has its tentacles when it comes to pop culture as we know it today. And for that reason, I I like Marvel better, but I think DC, in this case, is better than Marvel. I want to tell you that you almost fumbled the ball at the goal line. Because I don’t care how much reasoning anyone does to me at a comic book shop, Batman cannot be Professor X. He cannot do it. It’s impossible. He wouldn’t see it coming. He literally all professor just, like, just bring a bunch of bats, just throw a bunch of bats at Bruce Wayne, and the fight is over. What are we talking about here?

 

Rosie Knight  38:48

This is us three, like pitching for the inevitable Marvel vs DC comic. Soon, it’s like we’re doing Batman versus Professor X.

 

Ronald young Jr.  38:56

That’s the first one.

 

Jason Concepcion  38:59

Well, thank you so much for the opportunity to make my case. I appreciate it.

 

Ronald young Jr.  39:05

Hey, where can people find you?

 

Jason Concepcion  39:06

Well, you can find me on X Ray Vision, wherever you get your podcasts. You could find my other podcasts, Six Trophies, wherever you get your podcasts. Listen X Ray Vision three times a week, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday.

 

Ronald young Jr.  39:19

Nice. I love it, just like the old 90s MBA schedule, that is a deep cut. A lot of people are not gonna understand.

 

Rosie Knight  39:24

That’s important to us.

 

Ronald young Jr.  39:28

Rosie, where can folks find you?

 

Rosie Knight  39:29

You can find me there too. I’m Rosie marks on social media, Instagram and letterbox. They have very honest letterbox, which showcases a lot of my eclectic tastes, aka bad tastes. And yeah, X Ray Vision. Me and Jason are always there talking about this kind of stuff and just how much we love it. So please join us there, and thanks for having us. This was a joy.

 

Ronald young Jr.  39:49

I appreciate you both being here. This has been great.

 

CREDITS  39:56

Thanks again to Rosie Knight and Jason Concepcion. There’s more Pop Culture Debate Club with Lemonada Premium. Subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content like Chris Duffy and Wyatt Cenac from the Speed vs Passenger 57 episode talking about their earliest experiences with mass transit. Subscribe now and Apple podcasts.  Pop Culture Debate Club is a production of Lemonada and the BBC.   It’s produced by Jamela Zarha Williams, Kryssy Pease,  Dani Matias and me, Ronald young Jr. Our mix is by Noah Smith. Rachel Neel is VP of new content. Our Senior Vice President of weekly content  and production is Steve Nelson. Commissioning editor for the BBC is Rhian Roberts. Executive Producers are Stephanie Wittels Wachs and Jessica Cordova Kramer.   Follow Pop Culture Debate Club, wherever you get your podcasts.