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Which children’s cable TV channel is better: Disney Channel or Nickelodeon? Two comedians square off this week in this nostalgic battle, with Evan Mills taking the side of Disney Channel and Hoja Lopez here to fight for Nickelodeon. And Ronald Young Jr. will listen to what they each have to say and then declare a winner. On the one hand, Evan says Disney Channel produced a longer list of lasting stars, movies, and shows. On the other hand, Hoja argues that Nickelodeon’s alt-humor did a better job of embracing, as she calls it, “the chaotic nature of childhood.” Which argument will sway Ronald this week?

Follow Hoja @alohahoja on Instagram and X and Evan @awkvanmills on Instagram.

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Transcript

SPEAKERS

Ronald young Jr., Hoja Lopez, Evan Mills

Ronald young Jr.  00:00

If you’re a millennial, you probably watched a lot of kids television in the 90s and 2000s, Maybe you enjoyed shows like Double Dare and Doug on Nickelodeon, or maybe you were enjoying movies and musicals like Johnny Tsunami and High School Musical on the Disney Channel. Maybe you were like me, and you watched both regardless, Nickelodeon and the Disney Channel were a huge part of the fabric of our childhood. Of course, there were some limitations in that both shows were on cable rather than on network television. At one point, Disney Channel was premium cable, which meant you had to pay extra for it. Regardless, there are some classic properties that came from both channels, from Spongebob Squarepants to Lizzie McGuire and Legends of the Hidden Temple to the famous jet Jackson. Today, it’s a battle of children’s television programming. Which channel will come out on top? Is it the Disney Channel or Nickelodeon? We make that decision once and for all right here and right now on pop culture Debate Club. I’m Ronald Young Jr.

 

Ronald young Jr.  01:12

So let’s meet our panelists for the day, representing the Disney Channel. You might know our first guest from the stage of Chicago’s famous Second City. He’s also the writer and CO creator of Queer Eye, the musical parody. Hello and welcome, Evan Mills.

 

Evan Mills  01:26

Hi, thank you for having me. I’m so glad to hear defending my sweet Disney Channel.

 

Ronald young Jr.  01:34

I love it. I’m I’m very interested in your arguments on this.

 

Evan Mills  01:37

Me too.

 

Ronald young Jr.  01:41

Also joining us. Repping Nickelodeon is a comedian and the creator and current host of gay news, a monthly satirical web series focusing on queer stories. She’s also a performer at Chicago’s other famous theater, the annoyance theater. Let’s welcome, Hoja Lopez.

 

Hoja Lopez  01:58

Hello, thank you for having me. I really think this is actually a case of sort of like alt comedy versus sort of like a mainstream comedy.

 

Ronald young Jr.  02:10

Wow, you know what you’ve are, you’re already reframing my thinking, and you’re playing to the jury, which is, which might play to your favorite? You’re starting on the back foot already.

 

Evan Mills  02:22

I know I’m sweating already.

 

Ronald young Jr.  02:25

Well before we get into too much fighting, fighting. Tell me. How do you two know each other?

 

Hoja Lopez  02:30

I think for a long time we just orbited around each other. But that’s how improv scenes and comedy scenes are. You just kind of like, see somebody’s face enough times over the course of three years, and then the day you meet, you’ve already know like 80 things about the other person. You already know true 10 friends in common. So that’s me and Evan, yeah.

 

Evan Mills  02:48

We would just see each other all the time. And then finally, you know, after a couple years, we were like, You know what? We know each other. Let’s hang out now, and we’ve been friends ever since.

 

Ronald young Jr.  02:59

That’s such a beautiful start to a friendship, the ones with just casual connections. Nope, not casual connections. Casual, casual friendships, that kind of bring you in closer to each other’s orbits. And you just decide to make it official one day. And then you also find out that, wow, this might have been the best friend I never had, totally so Evan, you’re representing the Disney Channel. Hoja, you’re representing Nickelodeon. OHA, what is your earliest memory of Nickelodeon?

 

Hoja Lopez  03:26

Oh I went on a trip, actually, like maybe 9495 to Universal Studios. And this is, like a few years after the Nickelodeon studio opened in Orlando. And I remember I kind of like walked through. They did it kind of studio tours, they weren’t shooting or anything. But you could see, like where people got their makeup done, and The Amanda Show scene set. And you could see the all that set, and you can see the Clarissa Explains It All set. It had a massive impact on me, because I already loved the shows, but like going to touch it and see it in person, took it to a whole new level. I Oh, I remember, I left the gift shop with that with a Gack. Do you know that, like little plastic things with the GAC, and depending on, like, where you pushed it, or what side it would like make a fart noise? Which,  exactly, which, to me, is the same mechanics as a queef, and that’s enough for an adult, you know. And you guys listen, we’re adults here, so I’m allowed to say that, and it’s my story. I was maybe too into it. You guys too into the GAC.

 

Ronald young Jr.  04:36

Evan, tell me, what is your earliest memory of the Disney Channel?

 

Evan Mills  04:39

When my mom and I moved into, like our first apartment, just me and her, we got a TV and I remember we only had, like, a few channels, but for some reason, Disney Channel was one of them. And at this time, Disney Channel, I feel like, was kind of like on the up and up, because. I remember just tuning in and being like, Okay, what this is cool, like a channel for where I can watch Disney movies. But then I remember watching this show called the jersey and so weird and the famous jet Jackson, and being like, Oh, this is not, this is not like Disney. This is a channel for their own content, and then I just remember being absolutely addicted to Disney Channel to the point where I couldn’t leave the TV set for like dinner or for homework, because I was just always watching Disney Channel.

 

Ronald young Jr.  05:32

The famous Jet Jack. Did you really, you really hit a note with me on that one?

 

Evan Mills  05:36

Yeah, I’m gonna hit a lot of notes.

 

Ronald young Jr.  05:40

All right. Y’all ready to fight?

 

Evan Mills  05:42

Let’s do it. As much as I don’t want to fight with Hoja, let’s do it.

 

Ronald young Jr.  05:50

Let’s get into our opening arguments. Evan Mills, please give me your opening case as to why the Disney Channel is the superior channel.

 

Evan Mills  06:00

Disney Channel is superior to Nickelodeon, because while both channels have incredible nostalgia and nostalgic elements to it that live through most of our childhood, I believe that the Disney Channel has produced a much longer list of lasting stars, current stars, original movies and original television shows that if you bring up to any person in a room anywhere between 18 and 4550, you could, you could bring up something to them that they connect to based off of simply one channel, the Disney Channel.

 

Ronald young Jr.  06:43

Oh, okay, I like it. And clear.

 

Evan Mills  06:45

I didn’t write any of that. I will say, I just won it all right.

 

Ronald young Jr.  06:51

Concise. I like it. Hoja, your opening argument. Why is Nickelodeon the superior channel? Well,

 

Hoja Lopez  06:58

I would say that Nickelodeon, to me, felt like it was driven by kids and like kids sensibilities, and I felt like it didn’t talk down to children. And I feel like Nickelodeon is kind of like metal, and it’s like amazing, and it’s ugly and it’s slimy and it’s messy, in the same way that kids are ugly and messy and slimy. And I feel like those shows and the output that they had had this kind of, like creative freedom that wasn’t sort of limited to more of like, kind of moral lessons. I found that Disney felt kind of like, like they were trying to instruct you on how to live your life. And I think Nickelodeon had this opportunity to, like, embrace the weirdness and allow kids to kind of explore more unusual content, which I feel like Disney has never been able to match, even now, like when you have shows like running Stimpy or awe monsters, or even like live stuff like Pete and Pete and so your shorts, it really has this kind of a reverence and this feeling of, kind of like pushing the boundaries, whether it was like gross out humor or it was just like shows that I think eventually inspire, things like South Park and Rick and Morty, like it just had this edge that I felt like Disney didn’t have. And to me, whenever I think of Disney, I think kind of like monoculture, like it felt like all the shows were kind of the same in some way or another, and that I don’t know, Nick just felt like a place where I felt like I could be a rebel.

 

Ronald young Jr.  08:26

Wow, you look like you had a rebuttal, Evan.

 

Evan Mills  08:29

Well, it’s no there’s no rebuttal. It’s just, it is. It’s such an unfortunate thing. Because while I also just like, love Nick lotion, and I fully agree with what you are saying, I just you know, I just know.

 

Hoja Lopez  08:52

Okay, Evan, it’s getting hot.

 

Evan Mills  08:53

It’s getting hot.

 

Ronald young Jr.  08:57

We’ll be back with more Pop Culture Debate Club after this break.

 

Ronald young Jr.  09:15

Hoja can you speak directly to what Evan was saying earlier when he talks about the idea that Disney has more bankable stars that we know today. Do you think that that’s a plus or minus to Disney and or Nickelodeon?

 

Hoja Lopez  09:29

Well, I don’t think it speaks to the talent of the stars. I don’t think it speaks to like the actual quality of the people that they cast. I think because Disney is a conglomerate and an empire essentially, like they have kind of perfected this sort of, like sales system of people. And I also, I mean, like, you cannot tell me that, as in, day is not the most spectacular casting for it’s so spectacular. And I mean, it goes on and on and on, those stars are incredible. But I just, um, to me, it feels like. More a result of like, that’s that selling, rather than like a place that wants to make things for kids. It feels like a sell to me.

 

Ronald young Jr.  10:10

I want to say I feel a little insulted that nobody said Keenan Thompson, who is probably

 

Evan Mills  10:14

Nickelodeon, is the king of Nickelodeon to me.

 

Hoja Lopez  10:18

Right, agreed.

 

Ronald young Jr.  10:20

Over Ariana Grande. You would say Evan?

 

Evan Mills  10:22

Yes, because Keenan came in with all that, and he was, what, 11 or something insane like that. He was so young, and he was like the king of sketch comedy. And then he went on to do his own show with Kell, which was just as successful. And then you went to SNL, like, he’s like, I think like, Keenan is like one of Nickelodeon’s greatest success stories.

 

Ronald young Jr.  10:46

Evan, when you think about bankable stars, when it comes to the Disney Channel, why is it important that the Disney Channel is a pipeline to star making How does that make it a better quality channel?

 

Evan Mills  10:55

The overall message of Disney Channel, to me is that they put stars in front of you that you wouldn’t normally see in everyday life, right? Like I feel like when I was growing up, the shows that I was watching were like Lizzie McGuire, where we had Miranda and we had that so Raven and there was, there was a lot of there was just a lot of charisma and charm to these stars that they again, they they had them in the titular roles, right? Like, literally shows. The show was called, That’s So Raven. And I think, like They latched on to Raven because she had come from a little bit of a famous childhood history, and they locked her in, and they kind of gave her a pathway to literally make her own show, right? They hired Hilary Duff, and they said, here’s a show where you get to kind of just be a pre teen and show kids what it’s like to be in middle school. And even Stevens, here’s Shia LaBeouf and christy carlson romano. And that was one of the weirder shows. Then you have shows like Hannah Montana, where I do believe Miley Cyrus is maybe one of the most famous people on Earth.

 

Hoja Lopez  12:06

And see she is an incredible singer and an incredible artist, and she’s in my heart, yes, in a gay way.

 

Evan Mills  12:13

In a gay way.

 

Ronald young Jr.  12:16

Hoja, do you think that this becomes, then, a debate of stars versus quirkiness. Ebony here is presenting a lot of these mainstream stars that have gone through the Disney pipeline, but when we talk about Nickelodeon, we’re talking about quirky television more. In that case, speak to the quirkiness of Nickelodeon a bit.

 

Hoja Lopez  12:33

I think quirkiness is a good word, but I think a better word would be just like real and to me, the realness of it was a huge factor. Like, I feel like there is a sense in big glossy television and big movies where you’re allowed to be aspirational, but you don’t really see yourself in it entirely. And I think that that is something that Disney suffers with a little bit, is that even though you have stars this kind of, like, hashtag, relatable content, is not really a thing with Hannah Montana or with some of these shows that end in a kind of, I guess I would call it like a seventh heaven arc. You know what? I mean? It’s just very like, you start with the problem, you know, I don’t know, they drink too much coffee, and now they’re addicted to coffee, and they need to quit coffee. Like, that’s literally the arch of a show for for it just doesn’t feel as meaty and as real as I ever really wanted it to be. And I think there’s something about Nickelodeon that feels so inclusive to like a strange, weird kid that Disney never quite felt like. And I think the star power thing is sort of debatable, because a lot of that star power came from projects once they actually like left to Disney. Like that star power is maybe a testament to Disney casting, but the reason that we love Miley is maybe a little bit of Hannah Montana. It’s like the iconicness of it all. But the reality of it is that woman is an incredible singer with some incredible albums that have come out in these last 10 years, and not really when she was doing Hannah Montana. Like, to me, the longevity is a testament to casting, but not necessarily to the quality of the Disney like, of what Disney was putting out.

 

Evan Mills  14:08

That is true. I would go off of that, of saying that when you do talk about Miley Cyrus, it is it’s inevitable to go Well, where did, where did she get her start? And it always brings you back to Disney Channel, right? You talk about Zac Zac Efron, but to me, Zac Efron, he’s 37 and yet, still, my biggest memory of Zac Efron is High School Musical, you know, like, I think that it, it’s a time capsule, in a way, where it’s like, Sure, Selena Gomez has the most followers on Instagram. Selena Gomez is maybe one of the most famous people on Earth, but she’s also now a billionaire. She’s now a billionaire, right? And but when we think of Selena Gomez, my first thought is Disney Channel girl, right? And it’s like, I think that Disney has a very powerful way of like, doing that, and maybe a little a. Little corporate.

 

Hoja Lopez  15:00

Yeah, I could see that. I can also see that every single one of those Disney stars had a like, I need to get the fuck out of here moment, because I think it’s a Disney has their claws in them. You know what I mean? Like, I think Disney has a kind of like that. Same thing you’re talking about is a grasp of them. And I think they can’t they at that point, they could not be happier to be rid of it, but they also really wanted it when they started. So I think both of those things can be true for sure. And also, just to say that, like we’re talking a lot about live action stuff, that’s what not, that’s not what Nickelodeon was really totally about. Yes, there was some amazing stuff, but if you go back in time a little bit and really talk about, like, the animation and resources there,  I feel like it tilts, you know what I mean? Like it goes back and forward in terms of like, impact.

 

Evan Mills  15:48

Yes.

 

Ronald young Jr.  15:49

Well, you had Kim Possible and videos a defer. What else did you have animation wise on Disney that would stand to Nickelodeon.

 

Evan Mills  15:57

I would say that I slightly agree here that when I think of Disney Channel cartoons, I think, like you said, you know, Phineas and Ferb, Kim Possible, The Proud Family, you also have things like, I think that the cool thing about Disney, the Disney Channel, is that they had so much stuff that they they had their own sub channel, which was tune Disney, which then gave us things like Lloyd in space, recess, pepper, an you know, like the weekenders. And then they gave us all those like sub movie shows that were like The Little Mermaid, Aladdin, Timon and Pumbaa, Goof Troop, Quack Pack, Duck Tails. Tail Spin like Chip and Dale Rescue range.

 

Ronald young Jr.  16:41

Having a navy show.

 

Hoja Lopez  16:42

Don’t forget, Gargoyles. Sorry, I’m helping you with your point.

 

Evan Mills  16:46

And gargoyles.

 

Ronald young Jr.  16:47

Whose side of you, Hoja?

 

Hoja Lopez  16:49

Hadn’t said Gargoyles. And I said, we must. We must shut out Gargoyles.

 

Evan Mills  16:53

And gargoyles.

 

Ronald young Jr.  16:54

I will say this. I will say the danger of going into that argument, Evan, is that then you start to go into the Disney Afternoon, which was not on Disney. It was on ABC. If I’m not mistaken, you’re correct. If we start signing those cartoons, we’re in trouble.

 

Hoja Lopez  17:07

Nick Jr, which is also its own incredible universe for even younger kids, which, by the way, this is something that I didn’t know until I was doing this. But like, Paw Patrol is Nickelodeon Peppa Pig. They have, like, The Adventures of Paddington, like, these are massive hits and not massive hits from the 90s. They’re like, massive hits from right freaking now,

 

Ronald young Jr.  17:31

Yes, but, Hoja is Paw Patrol not copaganda?

 

Hoja Lopez  17:35

Okay, listen, don’t put me on the spot about that stuff, because if we’re talking about copaganda, okay, I have no rebuttal. This is correct.

 

Evan Mills  17:44

I love that you started that sentence.

 

Hoja Lopez  17:46

I think of it as I was talking, but nothing came to me at the moment of truth.

 

Ronald young Jr.  17:52

We’ll be back with more PCDC after this break.

 

Ronald young Jr.  18:10

Let’s shift gears here and talk a little bit about access. So the one thing that I noted as a child was that I only had access to Disney Channel every now and then because Disney Channel used to be a premium channel. It was not on basic cable. It was on premium cable. You had to pay for it, and it was around 1996 that it became a free channel that kind of created some separation, as in Nickelodeon being the channel for every main that was available, versus Disney Channel being something that was more premier that you had to pay for, or you had to go to your friend’s house that had the Disney Channel that felt like a special treat. Evan, do you feel like that gives the Disney Channel an advantage in terms of its prestige, and kind of putting it behind this veil in some ways, even after it becomes free?

 

Evan Mills  18:50

A little bit, because I think it’s like the HBO effect, where it’s like, where some people would get HBO, and then everyone’s like, Oh, what’s this? Like? I must have it, or I need to go to a friend’s house to watch this show. I, because I, for me, with the nostalgia and the love of Disney Channel was that they didn’t have commercials. They had ads for their own shows. They had behind the scenes footage of things that they were working on. They had music videos. They had little bug juice shorts where, you know, like they had, they had their own branding of like, what their commercials would be like to keep you entertained the whole time. And then they would work you up into these original movies that they would for weeks. They would amp you up. They’d be like, Johnny Tsunami. Let’s take a behind the scenes look at like how it was from going from beach to snow. And then you’d get so excited to watch these, but then they’d be Friday nights at 8pm and then if you didn’t have the channel, it was like an event where you could go, okay, who’s gonna come to my house and watch Johnny tsunami? And then they would do these movies once a month, which just gave such an incentive to be like, Okay, well, now we’ve just gotten this, like, really fun movie about this surfer who has to go learn how to snow. Aboard next month. What is it going to be? Is it going to be twins who need to learn how to play basketball? It was just such an event to me Disney Channel, where they they really did know how to say, like, we’ve got, we’ve got special content. Don’t be left out on Monday at school, when everyone’s talking about the luck of the Irish, and you don’t know what it is, you know?

 

Hoja Lopez  20:19

I know exactly what that is good. I have that, that boy’s face just sort of like, cemented in my.

 

Evan Mills  20:30

Oh, Ryan Mary men.

 

Hoja Lopez  20:31

Yes, just, there’s just something about his face, his little sort of ears that turn, you know, yeah, little leprechaun.

 

Evan Mills  20:40

And he also was like, kind of like, just for a brief moment, like the like, Disney Channel had, like, little kings and queens every once in a while. And he was the face of, what I would say is the very first AI movie, smart house, you know, oh my god.

 

Hoja Lopez  21:00

Okay, before you’ve gone for too long, because I feel like you’re getting, out of hand here, and I need to come back to it, which is like, again, we’re still talking about this live action feeling. And this access thing is very interesting. Like, just think about the for example, when I think about something comparable, like Spongebob Squarepants is on Nickelodeon, SpongeBob is, to me, in terms of like access, it’s like, up there in TV shows with like Seinfeld, or like MASH or the sopranos, or like Breaking Bad, like, the impact of Spongebob, to me, is so massive the writing of these shows you guys like it is, not only is it, like unforgettable and original and bizarre And a joyful all those things are real. But also I was looking and it’s like the people who wrote on these shows have gone on to write incredible things. So it’s just like, it’s just an interesting the other person that was writing on Pete and Pete, I think, ended up writing for like, slow horses and wrote the Americans and justified and silo. It’s just like these incredible talents that go on and continue to create, even after Nickelodeon.

 

Ronald young Jr.  22:08

So there is a pipeline that exists out of Nickelodeon. It’s just not one that we would be able to readily identify with our eyes.

 

Hoja Lopez  22:16

Yeah, I think so. But if you go on like these imdbs, these people are just like prolific. They’re so great.

 

Ronald young Jr.  22:22

You know, one thing, one place that I thought Disney Channel was lacking. Hoja was in game shows? Can you talk to the game shows that were on Nickelodeon? Kind of classic.

 

Hoja Lopez  22:31

Even just thinking about double dare from earlier, like, to me, just the concept of double daring is the greatest like escalation for children that has ever existed. Like, if I really think conceptually about what double daring mean is just like, like raising the stakes, but also like, the picking of the nose, like putting your hand up the nose with the green gunk and trying to get the flag and like, there was this excitement around the slime and the grossness of it all that I just don’t know if there’s anything else that has really touched that nerve as a kid, and I just remember thinking, I remember being glued to the edge of my seat on whether or not they were gonna get the final key or make it through the room, or if, like, the guards were gonna get them and pull them out, or, like, if they Were gonna make it across that initial like, water obstacle, those things felt so, so freaking fun to me. Also, the idea that like this live event, of like the Kids Choice Awards, is such an enduring, like live event for people that I feel like, like we had Disney legends this year, and that’s the first one I’ve actually ever heard of. Was the one because Miley won this year, and it was literally the first time I had ever heard that Disney had like a live award thing.

 

Ronald young Jr.  23:47

Well, Hoja, Disney Channel is no slouch. And Evan, can you talk to me a little bit about the live concerts that Disney Channel puts on? I feel like that was kind of a spiking point in many years where you could just turn it on and see a concert out of nowhere.

 

Evan Mills  24:01

I remember you could go and, like, they had those concerts where it was like a mix of, like, Christina Aguilera with the Backstreet Boys with 98 degrees, and then peppered in there would be like, Raven debuting her single, you know, and like, like, they would have these, like, big pop stars who would come in and like, do these, do these live shows, and then they’d be like, and we’d like to welcome Lindsay Lohan. She’s gonna sing something for you, you know. And Disney Channel had a, had a really fun thing where they would, they would take all of their stars, and they’d put them into one recording studio and have them sing like a cover of like, the circle of life. And to me, watching like 12 of your favorite, like actors all singing together.

 

Hoja Lopez  24:49

It’s like, We Are the World for children kind of?

 

Evan Mills  24:51

Exactly, yeah, it would be like Anneliese Vanderpool singing with like Lalaine, you know. And these are two people. You who you saw all the time, who you always were like, I wonder what else they do? And Disney Channel was like, here we’ll show you like, I remember they would give their stars like these music videos and these songs for their movies too, where they would not only have, like this new movie with a star from Even Stevens, with the original song from the star of Lizzie McGuire, and they knew how to, like, weave everyone in together and use everyone in the ways that they were talented. Because you could just turn it on and there would just be a free concert of your favorite artists that you as an 11 year old probably weren’t allowed to go to a concert still, you know, and get access to that kind of stuff.

 

Ronald young Jr.  25:46

This has been a lot of fun. You got y’all have brought up a lot of great points, but let’s close it out. Evan Mills, give me a closing argument. Why is the Disney Channel better than Nickelodeon?

 

Evan Mills  25:57

Okay, tough, tough word to say better. Because now that we’ve had this discussion, I really, really passionately believe in the two networks, for me, personally, Disney Channel, with the live aspect, the Disney Channel original movies. They it is, it is better in the sense of longevity, of family oriented films, nostalgic films. Disney Channel gave us Kenny Ortega, maybe one of the the best musical directors we’ve ever seen. You know, I think Disney, Disney Channel has a very nostalgic and sentimental part to my heart. And I think that with what Disney Channel gave myself, personally, was a lot of different points of views, a lot of different learning moments, a lot of different storylines, a lot of different things that I didn’t see growing up. A lot of just a lot of possibilities and a lot of dreams that were like coming true, whether they were a storyline of a girl who was posing as a pop star, right? Or a wizard trying to learn their powers. But also, like, just very wholesome stories, like, gotta kick it up where, you know, it’s just a bunch of underdogs trying to win brink, which is, like, such a powerful film to me. Yeah, I don’t know. I’m such a like, let me just name all the things.

 

Ronald young Jr.  27:25

Just name shows.

 

Evan Mills  27:27

But like, for me, that that is proof right there that, like, I just there are so much that is in my brain of Disney channel that I can bring back and have a four hour conversation with someone, whether they want to have it or not. You know, of being like, I remember this movie which spawned this movie, which then made me and like, my whole life has just been like, watching movies, absorbing entertainment, and like, just wanting to be doing these things. So I think Disney Channel gave me that, like, like reality of like, this is possible. And like, yes, we’re not as goofy as Nickelodeon, and we’re not as like, kooky and crazy as Nickelodeon, but we still have really funny comedians like Raven, and we really have, like, the the wholesome original movies that just keep bringing you back, like high school musical, and that’ll, that’ll be, that’ll be the last thing I name.

 

Ronald young Jr.  28:17

Wonderful closing argument, Hoja, closing argument, why is Nickelodeon better than the Disney Channel?

 

Hoja Lopez  28:24

Again, as just somebody who felt like an outsider a lot, Nickelodeon just really appealed to that side of me, the identity of it was so much about embracing, sort of like, the chaotic nature of childhood. And to me, it really feels like that kind of story of a David versus Goliath here, like there’s this feeling of Nickelodeon being the underdog. And I cannot help but root for the underdog. And it just felt like a talented group of really creative people who, again, it didn’t feel like they were trying to sell me something. It felt like they were making something for me. It felt like they were giving me something. And I don’t know. I think there’s something about, like, this idea that you get slimed. Like, the whole idea of getting slimed for not knowing that is the reason that you get slimed just because you didn’t know the answer to something, and that was such a deep and profound, like, insecurity as a child of like, I don’t know this. And guess what? It’s the time when we know the fucking least, the whole entire channel is a metaphor for being a kid to me, and they just tapped into something that made me feel seen, that made me feel special, and it felt like a real reflection of my life. And when I think about like the shows that are on Nickelodeon, like freaking Spongebob, or like the wild born berries, or even, like the live stuff, like Drake and Josh or Zoe 101, or iCarly or Victorious, like we had big things that happened. Like it wasn’t like we weren’t on the live setting at all. It’s just that part of growing up and like watching Keenan and Kell or Inspector Gadget, or. Secret World of Alex Mack. Like those shows stick with me, and I refer to them in my life now, like I still they felt like a fantasy for me that I always wanted to jump into. And I don’t know, I think Clarissa Explains It All was an incredibly important show for me in particular, like breaking the fourth wall, looking directly at a camera. Like that show had a 5050, split between boys and girls watching it. And it was a show that, to me, kind of like proved that that that whole idea of, like, girls can’t anchor shows was totally not real. And I find that Disney actually, like, kind of took over ideas that started at Nickelodeon. Like, to me, recess felt like it was really playing on the same themes as, like, Doug or as Hey Arnold. Like, those shows are comparable because Nickelodeon did them first, and then Disney would figure out that they were working and then do it the same way. So, but that’s it for me.

 

Ronald young Jr.  30:58

Amazing. Are y’all ready for my ruling.

 

Evan Mills  31:01

We’re so ready.

 

Hoja Lopez  31:02

We’re ready. This is gonna cause infighting in our friend group. I’m gonna tell you right now.

 

Ronald young Jr.  31:07

It’s gonna be the most popular decision in the group chat. So I think both of you made very solid arguments about why both the channels appeal to you personally, which I think is very good. I think y’all named shows that I had forgotten about, like Jackson, Hey, dude, you started talking about shows. Oh, how I mentioned, uh, Clarissa Explains It All. And I’d forgotten about that show, another show that I really like. I think I’ve had an iconic moments, uh, myself, with both channels, just going back and tween before, and then after that, you graduate to MTV, and then we all watch MTV, MVH one, and then we move on and so forth. So it was a very effective trip down memory lane. I think what’s important here is that, Evan, you began to argue about Disney’s pipeline. It is true, you can take a star, you can put it on Disney’s pipeline. They will grow into a big, mega star. We’ve seen that happen over and over again. We know it also happens on Nickelodeon, but what’s happening at Disney feels a lot more calculated, almost, dare I say more like k pop in, part of the machine where you know what you’re getting into when you get there. As soon as the Jonas Brothers showed up there, we knew they were going somewhere, as soon as they left the Disney Channel, which I think is true. Hoja, you pointed out the alt comedy versus the mainstream comedy, and that kind of stuck in my head a while, because I think about what it is to be a kid watching both of these and I remember when I was just a silly kid, much younger, Nickelodeon was speaking directly to me. It wasn’t talking down to me. It was talking directly at me. It knelt down, took me by the face and just talked to me and made jokes and fart sounds and all of that. And I really enjoyed that. Y’all pointed out that I really do like both channels. But that being said, if I had to pick one better than the other, I think in this case, I have to go with Nickelodeon. And here’s why I think you were affected in your argument, Hoja it’s mostly because, Evan, everything you said was true, all of the things you pointed out about the channel that were great were true. I remember when it was a paid channel. I would only watch a Disney Channel for the week that it was free, because they would just give it to you free. So I’d watch it every day. I remember watching the Little Mermaid concert where they had the animated Sebastian along with the guy who voiced it singing a concert in front of an audience. I remember that. But the problem is, I feel like if we’re talking about the strength of pipeline, it goes to this corporate place, which I think is true. I think they’re like seeding these ideas and these people as children and trying to grow them into stars to make them more bankable for everyone, which is something that doesn’t sit well with me. That’s not to say you’re off the hook entirely,Hoja because we know there’s a lot of nonsense going on at Nickelodeon. […] Of course, you take the win. But all of that being said, when you think about what actually, like, tingles, like, really gets my my senses going, I have more, probably, affection, a little bit more, not much, a little bit more affection for Nickelodeon so  Hoja, you are the winner of today’s debate.

 

Hoja Lopez  34:05

Thank you. I’ve well acknowledged that if it had been an off day, Evan could have absolutely correct me.

 

Evan Mills  34:12

But you know what? What is beautiful about, about this argument is that, like everything you were saying, I was agreeing with because I love Nickelodeon.

 

Hoja Lopez  34:20

Love Disney, but I’m waiting until this debate was over to tell you that.

 

Ronald young Jr.  34:27

Evan, where can people find you?

 

Evan Mills  34:29

They can find me on all social media platforms, Instagram, Tiktok, YouTube, all under the same name, Awkvanmills A, W, K, V, A, N, M, I, L, L, S, that’s it. I noticed I went, M I L, L S, and then both of you, like, kind of leaned in a little bit, and I was like, oh, I guess I should have just went, M I L, L S.

 

Hoja Lopez  34:58

You should. Everybody needs. To go listen to Evan’s music on it on his page, it’s incredible. It’s so funny, and it totally shows you why Evan loves Disney too.

 

Evan Mills  35:07

Wow, thank you so much. I really appreciate that.

 

Ronald young Jr.  35:10

Hoja, where can people find you?

 

Hoja Lopez  35:12

You can find me @alohahoja, on all social media channels.

 

Evan Mills  35:22

Ah, I see.

 

Ronald young Jr.  35:24

I love reference huber, Oh, I love that. That was great. Thank you both for being here. This has been a lot of fun. Thank you so much.

 

Hoja Lopez  35:31

Thank you Ron.

 

Evan Mills  35:31

Thank you for having us.

 

Hoja Lopez  35:33

Also, I called you Ron is it? Is that okay?

 

Ronald young Jr.  35:36

I prefer Ronald, but.

 

Hoja Lopez  35:37

Oh, I’m so sorry.

 

Ronald young Jr.  35:39

You’re fine. It’s not. It’s I’m okay.

 

Hoja Lopez  35:42

Ronald the professional.

 

Ronald young Jr.  35:49

There’s more PCBC with Lemonada Premium. Subscribers get access to exclusive bonus content like Nikki and Will the guests from the love Island us first UK episode talking about what type of person they’d look for if they went on the show.

 

CREDITS  36:04

Pop Culture Debate Club is a production of Lemonada and the BBC.  It’s produced by Jamela Zarha Williams, Kryssy Pease,  Dani Matias and me, Ronald young Jr. Our mix is by Noah Smith. Rachel Neel is VP of new content. Our Senior Vice President of weekly content  and production is Steve Nelson. Commissioning editor for the BBC is Rhian Roberts. Executive Producers are Stephanie Wittels Wachs and Jessica Cordova Kramer.  Follow Pop Culture Debate Club, wherever you get your podcasts.