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Divorce therapist Oona Metz takes us through the ups and downs of marriage, from fighting to making up to ending the relationship to dating after divorce. She tells us why we shouldn’t fight dirty (we all do it, right??), the difference between leaving a relationship and ending a relationship, how to make up in front of kids, and how to know when it’s time to go. Plus, why women get more sleep *after* divorce, and why women wait until midlife to leave! You don’t wanna miss this one!

You can follow our guest on Instagram @OonaMetz

You can follow our host Reshma Saujani @reshmasaujani on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/reshmasaujani/?hl=en

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Transcript

SPEAKERS

Reshma Saujani, Oona Metz, Interviews

Interviews  00:04

No one in my family has ever been divorced, and it’s very frowned upon. I was scared I married him when I was young, because society tells you, after college, next is marriage. Women are not taught how to leave. We were taught to stay. I didn’t want my kids to be split between two households. I couldn’t imagine anything worse. I saw it as failure.

 

01:52

Welcome to My So Called Midlife, a podcast where we figure out how to stop just getting through it and start actually living it. I’m Reshma Saujani. Divorce, it’s a big topic, and as you heard, so many women have big feelings about it. Did you know that most women get divorced in their midlife that’s why I had to get today’s guest on the show. She taught me so much about how I could fight better with my husband, and why I should never bring up divorce unless I really fucking mean it. Oona Metz is a psychotherapist, writer and speaker, and she hosts weekly meetups for women who are contemplating divorce. Over the past 30 years, she’s learned a lot, and that’s why she’s writing a book about it called Unhitched, thriving before, during and after divorce. The book doesn’t publish until 2026 but I got a sneak peek, and I absolutely devoured it. There’s so much good stuff in there, y’all. So let’s get into it. Oona, welcome to the show.

 

Oona Metz  02:59

I am so excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me on the show.

 

Reshma Saujani  03:03

So I wanted to ask you, tell me one thing that may have happened to you last week that made you feel your age, where you felt so middle aged.

 

Oona Metz  03:12

Ooh, can it be every morning when I get out of bed and I kind of stumble to the bathroom? Yeah, takes a little while to feel like I can walk again like a normal person.

 

03:27

I totally get it. So I do go to bathroom like five times during the night time, which is very my middle age thing. So I want to jump right in. Are there any signs you see in couples that signal that the marriage is just going to fail?

 

Oona Metz  03:41

I think, in the old days, meaning, like 20 or 30 years ago, the old days, the research on couples therapy was that if you had if there were differences in your marriage, you were more likely to fail. And that’s not true anymore. Now the research shows is it’s not about the differences, it’s about how you negotiate those differences.

 

Reshma Saujani  04:05

What does differences mean when they say that?

 

Oona Metz  04:08

Oh, any kind of differences, differences in how much you want to talk about things versus not, differences in how clean you want the house versus not, differences in how you view what monogamy means to you different. I mean all kinds of differences, differences in values, all of those differences that happen in a marriage. Naturally, it would be very boring to be in a marriage where two people are exactly alike, right? Yeah. And so how you negotiate those differences? How you like learning how to fight well is is a huge skill, and really helps couples.

 

04:49

So my parents fought all the time. You know, they had come to this country in their 20s. They didn’t know the language. My mother had an arranged marriage. Much. They didn’t have any friends, they didn’t speak, you know, they didn’t have family, all of it. They were completely displaced. They came here as refugees and as a kid, I just used to remember just laying in my bed and just listening to them fight and fight and fight. And I would lay there and I would think, God, can you just get a divorce already? But they didn’t. Because, you know, in Indian culture, you the divorce rates are like, you know, nothing like you don’t do it, right? You just, you stick it out. Stick it out. Yep. And what’s fascinating now, una is like, my father’s about to turn 79 my mother’s 76 they are thick as thieves, best friends. You know, they still bicker, right? So, you know, it goes to your point about one, you know, we have this feeling like, again, we always say, my husband, i Our love language is fighting too. We bicker, right? And I always try to tell my son, because I think he’s terrified that that means we’re going to get a divorce, that, like, this is kind of how we communicate, and so is fighting an indication that you should get divorced?

 

Oona Metz  06:05

Not necessarily. I think it really depends on the kind of fighting you’re doing. I think there’s a way to fight clean and there’s a way to fight dirty, right?

 

Reshma Saujani  06:14

What is that?

 

Oona Metz  06:16

Well, one of the things I always tell people is like, don’t bring up divorce unless you’re absolutely serious, and don’t ever bring it up in a fight, like, don’t say the words, like, that’s it. I’m done. You know, in a fight.

 

Reshma Saujani  06:30

Kind of my favorite thing to say.

 

Oona Metz  06:32

It is, well, maybe your husband is so used to it now he knows that it’s not actually true. No, it terrifies him. Okay. Well, it’s Yeah, yeah. So maybe that’s something you can work on.

 

Reshma Saujani  06:43

No, but now, Oona, thank you. That’s my tip. I will not say that anymore.

 

Oona Metz  06:48

Maybe I’ll get a little letter from your husband saying, Thank you. But I think, you know, fighting dirty means doing things like saying, That’s it, I’m done. You know, slamming door like being in any way kind of physically violent, like slamming doors, walking out without telling the other person where you’re going or when you’ll be back, name calling, insulting, you know, getting really down and dirty.

 

Reshma Saujani  07:17

And that’s what we have to like not do. That’s what is good fighting. So no, those are things you shouldn’t do. What’s What are things you should do when you’re fighting?

 

Oona Metz  07:26

I think good fighting is really about being able to disagree and understand that you’re going to disagree like any marriage. There’s going to be disagreements, of course. But is there a way to do it without it getting so heated, without it getting onto other topics, and with people being able to really listen to each other, rather than just getting into a really defensive mode, because so often, you know, if somebody brings up, if your spouse brings up an issue, the first thing you might want to do is think of something they’ve done right instead of listening.

 

08:01

I’m always doing that. I’m always thinking about my response, uh huh, without listening to what he has to say. Yeah, yeah. You know, here’s the thing, we have a great, couple serious miss. I love her, okay, but these are the things that she’s also made. I mean, she’s kind of says a lot of that, that point too. And I think when you’re a talker and not a listener, it’s, harder, and I’m a talker.

 

Oona Metz  08:22

Yes, yeah. So your task is to work on your listening skills, rather than your talking skills.

 

Reshma Saujani  08:28

I will say, though, implementing this tactic of like, stop thinking about what you want to say next and listening has helped us argue less. Uh huh, uh huh. Okay, so I so oftentimes I think my husband, I both feel like our bickering builds resiliency with the kids, right? Because, you know, like, life’s not perfect, like, and I think I see a lot of people who don’t fight in front of their kids and and then, you know, they separate and get divorced, and their kids are like, what? Or their kids don’t know how to resolve or manage conflict.

 

Oona Metz  09:01

It’s really important for kids to know how to resolve conflict, but there is a difference between the kind of constant bickering, yeah, versus having a disagreement and resolving it.

 

Reshma Saujani  09:13

What if bickering is your love language like mine? Is like, Let me have a piece of the both of you.

 

Oona Metz  09:22

I think, I think it also depends what I mean. There’s bickering that can be a love language, that can be kind of just the way that one communicate.

 

09:30

That starts like, people are always like, you wish to have a reality show, like it’s just, it’s kind of how we, we poke each other, we’re, you know, like it’s like, how we it’s like, you know, it’s sad, but it’s kind of like two kids in like a school yard, when you pull your braids and you’re like, it’s because I love you, you know, so, like my couple surface one. So like most couples, fight over one thing, and it is true in my marriage, within the hall, right? There is one thing that we really fight about, yep, and our divorce is the same do like most couples, I guess. Did a divorce over the one thing that they were fighting about because they couldn’t reconcile it.

 

Oona Metz  10:05

Sometimes, yes, but sometimes it’s more like death by 1000 cuts, you know.

 

Reshma Saujani  10:13

Tell me more.

 

Oona Metz  10:13

I mean, sometimes there’s a particular theme, you know, one particular theme, like, say, so I work in the Boston area, and the women that I see, the heterosexual women I see, many of them, are married to men who have a lot of degrees. You know, we have a lot of schooling here in Boston, right? There’s a lot of colleges and a lot of universities. And so I see a lot of women who are married to very educated men who are unemployed, who are who are have chronic unemployment, right? And so that may be something they really fight about a lot, and then eventually divorce over.

 

Reshma Saujani  10:55

And what are they fighting about there? They’re just disappointed that they don’t get a job. The husbands are frustrated because they can’t find work. Like, what is? What are they fighting about?

 

Oona Metz  11:04

They’re fighting about the fact that they made an agreement that they were both gonna work, and now the husband is not working, but also not picking up the slack at home, right? Like, it would be one thing if he wasn’t working, but he’s also not picking up the slack, you know, because of perhaps because of depression, because of ADHD, because of some diagnosis, maybe, but also not getting treated for it.

 

11:14

So I want to ask you, the average age of divorce is 44 which is in your midlife like, what is it about that point in your life that allows people to kind of stand up and make that decision?

 

Oona Metz  15:13

So the average age is 44 which doesn’t mean everybody’s getting obviously, you know that doesn’t mean everybody’s getting divorced at 44 what I see a lot is women in their 50s, and what I see is women whose kids have their they’ve done a lot of parenting. They have two three kids, and maybe one or two of the kids is off at college, and another one’s in high school, and they’re thinking about what’s next, and the parenting is really what’s kept them in the marriage. So once the parenting gets done, they kind of are looking at each other like, what do we have now? And I think we are. We live in such a busy, busy time, and as parents, we’re expected to do so much for our kids that there’s very little time to, like, invest in the marriage left over if you have kids, right? And so a lot of times, people have not invested at all. They’ve invested a lot in their kids, but they haven’t invested in their marriage. And they get to that point where they look around and they think, I don’t want to do this anymore.

 

16:22

Yeah, I found that so interesting that women initiate divorce right 70% of the time. And what I was surprised by this is because I also think as women, we are risk averse, and we tend to avoid failure. So I would have actually thought that men were more comfortable kind of ending, one of the most seminal, most important decisions that they’ve made, because they’re more comfortable with failure. Can you explain this paradox?

 

Oona Metz  16:49

Oh, I’d love to. So here’s a crazy thing. Women initiate divorce 70% of the time, but the more educated they are, the higher that number goes so women with college degrees or advanced degrees are more like 80 to 90% of the divorce initiators. And here’s what I think. I have two things I want to say about that. One is, I think in relationships in general, women initiate things. They’re more active, right? So they initiate marriage, right? They initiate relationships. They’re more invested in relationships, they’re more invested in marriage. They’re more invested in the wedding. They’re more invested in making the marriage work, and then they also are the ones to initiate the divorce. But here is the reason why, I’ll tell you the reason why there’s, if we think about this, there’s a really big difference between ending a marriage and leaving a marriage. When you get married, you and your spouse have these spoken and unspoken rules about how marriage is going to work, how your marriage specifically is going to work, right? And if one person and in heterosexual marriages, let’s say if the man breaks those rules, those spoken or unspoken rules, about fidelity, about financial abuse, about both people working, about childcare, about being respectful to each other, right? If one person breaks those rules in some ways, they’re leaving the marriage. But then these guys don’t end the marriage. So fascinating, because you know what? Marriage works for men. Marriage works much better for men than it does for women. And so eventually, the woman who’s been trying and trying and trying to make this marriage work, has to give up. She’s backed into a corner, and the only thing she can do is to end the marriage, even though the man has already left.

 

Reshma Saujani  18:56

That was a story that you tell in your book about the couple. She finds out he’s cheating, right? With with a co woman or with somebody at his office? Yes, he promises to break it up. They do all the things, the couples counseling, they’re on, they’re on, you know, their their vacation to celebrate, and she sees a text coming. He actually never cut it off.

 

Oona Metz  19:17

That’s right.

 

Reshma Saujani  19:18

So how common is cheating as like a tactic to leave the relationship, and is it more for men?

 

Oona Metz  19:25

I think the research varies on this. I what I see in my practice, I work with all women, so I see that many of them are there because their husbands have cheated on them. It’s a very common tactic, and especially now with technology and phones and work trips and so on and so forth.

 

Reshma Saujani  19:47

Yeah, you know, the great news is, we’re talking a lot about menopause and perimenopause and the role of hormones. Yes. So it’s interesting, right? I want to go back to that stat. 44 is the average age. But you really say you see a lot happening. 50 ish, that’s kind of. Also, when you’re in that perimenopause menopause stage, how do you know if, like, your desire to get a divorce is just results of my hormones changing? How do I know it’s not a phase?

 

Oona Metz  20:11

Oh, I wish there was a little test we could take, like a pregnancy test, right? Yeah, exactly. What is it? So the question is, how do you know? You know if it’s menopause, or if it’s your making hormones, that’s right, driving you crazy. And well, one thing is to go to your doctor with that article and be treated for your menopause, right? And I think the other thing is women, the women I have seen, and I’ve seen literally hundreds of women through the process of divorce. Nobody does it impulsively. And so I think really taking the time to do your own inner work and figure out, taking the time to do couples work, and really try as much as you can to improve your relationship, you know, and then also making sure that there isn’t a hormonal, you know, issue, or an issue about depression, right, or some other diagnosis that could be treated.

 

Reshma Saujani  21:12

Yeah, I want to talk about money. So women are the ones who initiate divorce the most, but they’re also the ones that are hit the most financially. This is another thing I found fascinating, right? Women’s household income falls by 41% Wow, average following a divorce or separation. So does that mean we just shouldn’t get divorced until after 50 like, are we just safer if we wait till then?

 

Oona Metz  21:39

Well, there is a huge financial impact on divorce, and that’s one of the things people really need to take a look at if they’re thinking about divorce. You know, how are they going to support themselves, especially if they are women who have if there’s less either joint income or less personal income, and sometimes that is the reason that women wait until midlife to get divorced, because they’re also waiting until they’re financially on their feet again. But even though they’re financially not as well off, there is a ton of research that shows that women tend to be much happier than men when they get divorced and they’re oftentimes, there’s like a 75% of women do not regret their decision.

 

Reshma Saujani  22:28

Even though they might be financially less well off. Yes, that’s right, which is so interesting. Also, I should know about more about our family finances than I do.

 

Oona Metz  22:38

I mean, it’s very natural in marriages, that we kind of divide up responsibilities, right? And one, it’s not that we should be equal with every single aspect, right? It’s not that we should be 5050 with cooking and 5050 with dishwashing and 5050 with finances and 5050 with taking the garbage out. It’s more that it should be more equal, or 5050, with all of the tasks combined. Yeah. So if your husband is really good at finances, then, you know, let him do the finances. But you know also, make sure that you have the passwords. Make sure that you have you sit down every so often and just talk about, you know, what’s what is our current status, you know, where’s our money?

 

Reshma Saujani  23:23

Yeah.

 

Oona Metz  23:24

You know, how much do we have? Where our investments?

 

Reshma Saujani  23:27

And kind of get over. I think women, we’ve and I’ll say this myself, I have a funny relationship with money. It makes me feel uncomfortable. And I think it’s like, it just it like shifts that so talking about division of labor, yeah, as you said in your blog, one of the causes of divorce is the unequal division of labor in the US women do two thirds of the unpaid labor. This is on top of the fact that we are the only country that doesn’t have paid leave or affordable childcare, solving this is a huge part of what I do at moms first, in other countries, there are social services like paid leave and childcare, but in the US, there’s moms, so I think about this daily. And so what happens is that you know for and this is true even for working mothers, right, that they get an average of 30 minutes of downtime a day, while working fathers get an average of four hours a day. So I always be like, I don’t even have time to have a midlife crisis, right? Because it’s like, right? I’m doing all the things like, and it creates an enormous amount of unhappiness, right? Because it’s like, you just don’t have time, that’s right. And so, and I think about what brought in the hollow Knight of couples counseling was when you know my first son was born, oh how motherhood opens up the inequality. Your eyes up to the inequality in a way that you would never have seen it before. And here I am. I’m still building Girls Who Code. I’m breastfeeding my son. I’ve taken more paid leave than he has, and I’m like, I’m doing everything like. Like, what is this shit? And I am just mad all the time. And, you know, I think for us, couples constantly, really helped us figure out how to address the imbalances. And I think this is something that really rings true, and it goes back to the point of, like, one of the big reasons of divorce is because you feel like your husband’s a damn child, because you never get that ratio back, like in everything though, have you you’ve seen, though, is it inevitable that there’s going to be this imbalance?

 

Oona Metz  25:30

Oh, absolutely not. I mean, it is true that many marriages have that imbalance, and certainly the divorces I’ve seen, I have not seen anybody who comes to me because they’re getting divorced and things were equal in their homes, that’s for sure. But no, I think, I think it really warrants talking very much upfront with somebody with that you’re going to get married to about what you what your expectations are, you know? And it’s hard, because you can always say, Oh, of course we’re going to be I mean, most people say, of course we’re going to be equal when they get married, right? But then that first baby arrives, and suddenly it’s not. And it’s hard to say, well, you we said it was going to be equal, but it can be, it can be, but it’s harder.

 

26:24

Yeah, I mean, and if you ever think about it, like, you know, when we’re going on vacation, like, guess who’s packing all the things, like, and I often look at my I’m like, must be nice, right? Just to, like, pack your own shit and, like, walk to the car and not have to worry about, like, whether you brought the diapers or the kids froggies. And I think that, yeah, it’s like, it’s, it’s interesting, because I think people always, you know, people will do the things that make it easier on them, right? I found that when I was reading your your new book that’s coming out, the point that, like, oftentimes, the number one reason why women get divorced is because they feel like their husband is turned into another child that they have to take care of. That really resonated with me and the women that I know.

 

Oona Metz  27:05

Yes, I was just reading this morning this study that was done that said, actually, when women get divorced, they get more sleep than when they were married.

 

Reshma Saujani  27:19

Wow.

 

Oona Metz  27:19

And they do less housework than when they were married. Like, that’s crazy, right?

 

Reshma Saujani  27:25

I can believe that. I can believe that.

 

27:27

They are doing extra work for their husbands.

 

Reshma Saujani  27:31

Yeah, I’ve literally stopped. I’ll still do my husband’s laundry, but I won’t fold it. Uh huh,

 

Oona Metz  27:38

That’s your rebellion.

 

Reshma Saujani  27:40

It’s like little things like that. I was like, I’m taking that extra five minutes. So I want to talk about how this might be different for queer couples. So Claire Ken Miller had told me something very interesting about when she had looked into this, because the big question is, is it always going to be this way? And you can often look at queer couples to see if it could be different. If there’s a better world that we could build, right? That’s right. And what was fascinating is it is different for, you know, for same sex couples, because, like you said, they pre negotiated, they have a conversation, and the default isn’t the woman.

 

Oona Metz  28:19

That’s right, and it’s and with queer couples, it doesn’t mean again that they’re splitting every single task exactly 50-50 but they are better at negotiating and at being having equal amounts of work.

 

Reshma Saujani  28:35

So if you’re comfortable, I’d love to talk to you about how you made your decision to separate from your partner, like, how did you know it was time?

 

28:43

You know we we didn’t get married at 21 but we got married at 30 I was very invested in having a family. She was less invested in that. And I think we were also different kinds of people, and I think my investment in having a family, being so having such urgency about having a family, made me really overlook a lot of the differences. And so when the differences kind of came to light, I knew at that point we tried to repair and we couldn’t, and so I knew it was time to go at that point.

 

29:24

How much is it that, like, you know, oftentimes I feel like as women, we don’t listen to our gut, because we’re such taught to be such people pleasers or do the right thing, that even when we know deep inside, like this, relationships, it’s over.

 

29:40

That’s right. Sometimes when we don’t listen to our gut, that’s sometimes when our body will start to tell us, that’s sometimes when you’ll start to feel like for some reason, you can’t sleep anymore. You’ve got a chronic headache, you’ve got a stomach ache all the time, you know, but it is, and there’s so. Much societal pressure to have the big wedding and be married and stay married, right? I mean, even though, you know it’s like 43% of first marriages end in divorce.

 

Reshma Saujani  30:12

Yeah, it’s so interesting. I have a lot of friends that are mid 40s and not married, and they feel like such failures, right? Like, and they’re not, and let but like, culturally, we’ve have all these things that we tell you about finding true love and marriage, being like the thing that completes you and and it’s often not.

 

Oona Metz  30:36

Right, but it feels like it is when you’re not, when you’re single, right, or when you’re looking.

 

31:25

I want to talk about the impact of divorce on kids. You know, I have friends who would like to get a divorce, or their marriage isn’t working out, or they know they married the wrong person, or they’re unhappy, but they have little kids, and what they’ll often say is, I’m just going to wait to the kids. The kids are in college. What is the research on the impact of divorce in kids? Like, is that the right instinct? Like, if someone’s listening to this right now and they’re feeling that way, what would you say to her.

 

34:14

Right, I mean, if you’re in a really bad marriage and you have little kids waiting till they go to college, it’s gonna be a long slog. It’s a lot of years to wait. So the old research on divorce with kids said divorce is bad, and that’s it. You know, divorce is just bad for kids. But the new research, what the new research shows, is that conflict is what’s bad for kids. So I think about you telling that story of listening to your parents fight, you know, being in your bed and listening to your parents fight all the time and wishing that they would get a divorce. You know, it turns out that they ended up okay in the end, but that had an impact on you.

 

34:57

Oh, absolutely, absolutely, yeah.

 

35:00

Yeah, and so what we know now is that what’s really bad for kids is living with conflict, even the kind of tension that goes underground, like sometimes people, I like to say, some marriages, when they’re not doing well, they’re in a hot war, and sometimes they’re in a Cold War. And there’s sometimes a Cold War where people aren’t speaking to each other, or there’s a lot of tension. They may not be fighting outright, but there’s a lot you can feel the tension, and that’s not good for kids, and that doesn’t mean if you if you fight once in front of your kids, you’re going to damage them. But if there’s a chronic situation of conflict that’s not good for kids.

 

Reshma Saujani  35:46

Yeah, if you fight in front of your kids, should you make up in front of them too?

 

35:51

Yes, or you should at least tell them that you’ve made up or talk to them about what happened so that they can kind of understand it and understand that their parents are better. Now, it didn’t just magically happen. You could say something general, like, you know what? I just want to let you know, you I know you overheard that fight last night, but we did, did talk it out, and we realized that there was kind of a misunderstanding between us, or, you know, you know how we can get kind of hot headed sometimes, but we did work it out in the end.

 

Reshma Saujani  36:21

Yeah, you wrote this article about Reese withersman’s Divorce post, and about how it was filled with, like, respect and kindness. And, you know, it’s interesting, like, I grew up in the 80s, like Kramer versus Kramer, right? Divorce was war, war, right? And now we live in the moment of like, unconscious uncoupling, and Reese Witherspoon spoke and cohabitating, right? I have friends who are like, living together still in like, a two story brown house, and it’s just, it’s, it’s a different it. And again, I live in New York, so I don’t know if it’s just a New York thing, but it feels like it’s a different, kinder time for divorce.

 

Oona Metz  36:58

I don’t think so.

 

Reshma Saujani  37:02

I preface it by saying I live in New York, and it was referring to Brooklyn.

 

37:07

Yes, I think some people can manage it. I think some people can be amicable, but I think there’s a lot of very, very difficult emotions that people go through with divorce. And I think divorce, for the bulk of people, it really brings out their worst personal qualities. And I can tell you, I mean, I don’t know Reese Witherspoon, and I wish her very well, but having celebrities that make these divorce announcements like it’s with great kindness and abundant love and wonderful cooperation that we’ve decided to divorce like, no, no, it’s not like that doesn’t serve any I mean, maybe it serves her and her PR team. And, you know, look, I don’t expect that Reese or any other celebrity would be wanting to air their dirty laundry to the public. They shouldn’t, absolutely not. But I think it doesn’t serve people well when people kind of whitewash it in that way, because it is a painful it’s very painful process to go through, and people get through it. You know, people come out the other side and often feel much happier afterwards. You know, so many women come into my office and they’re like, this is the worst possible thing that could have ever happened to me. And a year later, two years later, they say to me, you know, it turns out, this is the best possible thing that ever could have happened to me, you know. So they really it. I don’t think there’s a lot of happy divorces. I don’t I have not seen anybody going through conscious uncoupling.

 

Reshma Saujani  38:47

Oh, I love your honesty. And I think there’s a lot of people listening that are like, wait, what’s wrong with my divorce? Like we’re ready to kill each other. And you feel like you’re doing divorce wrong, just like everything else we feel like we’re doing wrong in midlife. So I really appreciate you saying that, yeah, once you decide to get a divorce, communicating, it is really hard. Like, what’s your advice on how you tell family and friends and co workers?

 

39:15

I really see that if you can kind of, well, first of all, I think it is a really hard thing to do. And second of all, I think I really want to give people permission that they don’t have to tell the whole story to everybody in their lives. It can be really hard to tell the story. And so coming up with like, what are you going to tell? You know, the mom you see on the soccer field who you might be friendly, but you just see you’re on the soccer field, and so you know, you’re just going to say, we’ve been struggling for a long time. We tried to make it work, and but we’re getting a divorce and we’re doing okay, right? Versus a much better friend, where you might tell more of the details, or a family member that you might tell. More of the details, versus maybe your therapist or your best friend, who you’re going to tell every single thing all the nitty gritty, right? So really, kind of thinking beforehand about, like, who those people are in each of those categories, and coming up with your own little statement that you can have at the ready, because people will ask, and people have opinions, right?

 

40:26

I want to talk about the silence around divorce, right? 30 million people in America are divorced, and the peak divorce rate was in 1977 but people still feel, when they decide, when they make that decision, that they’re in an island by themselves. Like, why is divorce, even today, as more I think 50% of Americans are divorced. Like, why is it so stigmatized?

 

40:48

Yeah, it’s, I have to say, it’s a it can be a very isolating experience. And so women when they come. So I run three different divorce groups a week. And when women come to me and they want to be in my divorce group, they say to me, how is it possible that 50% of marriages end in divorce? And I don’t know anybody going through it right now, and I think that we still have a long way to go to talk about it, for people to be able to talk about it, and I think it can be a really isolating experience. And I think one of the reasons that people really want to come to my groups is because they want to be with a group of people who really get it right, and they may have family members or friends who are really well meaning and want to support them, and they just don’t get it in the same way that somebody going through divorce gets it. So my biggest advice for people, if they are going through divorce is to make sure that you have support, make sure that you have a team, make sure you have a therapist. It’s going to be really, really difficult, really stressful, really heartbreaking, yeah, to go through it.

 

Reshma Saujani  42:02

You know, when we if we get divorced, and we know that the decision is right, but we miss the idea of marriage. We miss the stability that we have of comfort and companionship and identity. Like, what’s, what’s your advice in dealing with that?

 

42:20

Yeah, it’s it can be such a huge change in identity. And I also find that a lot of women who come to me are like, I don’t really miss my spouse, per se, but I really miss having a person, or I really miss being in a couple, and I think helping them to understand, like, what exactly are they missing? Are they missing? And then really drilling down, like, what about being in a couple Do you miss going out to dinner on Saturday nights? Because that we can solve for, right? You can create a community where you have people you can go out to dinner with on Saturday nights. Or is it that you miss? You know, somebody who’s going to fix your kitchen sink, because we can fix that. We can get we can find you a plumber, right, who can do that. Or do you miss having somebody to talk to about what’s happening with your kids? And can you find a friend where your friend says, I want you to text me every time your kid scores a goal, or every time your kid gets an A in math, or every you know, so how do we kind of solve for that? And then there’s also the whole issue about dating, you know, after divorce, and what happens there, or getting into a new relationship, or, you know, and that’s a whole other topic, right?

 

Reshma Saujani  43:39

Yeah, what’s your advice on that for people we’re trying to get back out there? I mean, I heard, like, these apps suck, you know, and, like, oftentimes they were, you know, my generation, you just met somebody at a bar, right? Like, I can’t even imagine having to, like, be unswiped, or whatever the hell it’s called, you know, at 48?

 

43:56

Right, yeah, it is happening on the apps right. Now, I have a couple pieces of advice. One piece of advice is, I think it’s really important for women going through divorce to date themselves first before they date somebody else. Because again, I think in a marriage, women especially, get so accustomed to figuring out what everybody else in their life needs, their spouse, their kids, their work, their everybody and they they don’t pay enough attention about what they need and what they want. And if they jump right right into a new relationship, they may miss that step of really figuring out who they are and and what they want. So it can be like a whole new identity piece after divorce. A lot of women tell me like they get divorced at 55 they’ve been married for 30 years. It’s almost like they feel like they’re 25 again, right, in terms of dating, in terms of identity, but it does give this incredible opportunity. Opportunity to kind of figure out again, what it is that you want to do, what it is that you how you want to spend your time, who you want to be, how you want to dress, how what you want to eat. I mean, even the little things right, that make up who we are.

 

Reshma Saujani  45:16

Yeah I love it. And I think that’s so midlife, right, figuring out who you are and what you want. So on that note, just to wrap what’s the one piece of advice that you want people listening to this to leave with?

 

45:31

Well, I think if you’re facing divorce, what I want you to know is that it is really hard, despite what the celebrities say, It’s heartbreaking, it’s stressful, it’s hard, but if you are willing to kind of do the work of figuring out who you are and who you want to be, you will get to the other side. And many, many, many people are happier when they’re on the other side of divorce than they were in an unhappy marriage. So this can be you too.

 

Reshma Saujani  46:08

Thank you, Oona, this was such an awesome conversation. I feel like you gave us so much, and it’s such a blessing, because I think it’s a hard it’s a hard. Divorce is hard. It’s really hard, and I think you gave people some solace. So I’m grateful to you. Thank you so much.

 

Oona Metz  46:25

Thank you Reshma, great to be here.

 

Reshma Saujani  46:39

Oona Metz is a psychotherapist, writer and speaker. Keep an eye out for her amazing book, Unhitched, thriving before, during and after divorce, coming out in 2026 and lastly, I solemnly swear to never drop the D word divorce during a fight. You hear me now? We’re in this for life, baby.

 

CREDITS  47:07

There’s more of My So Called Midlife with Lemonada Premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content like midlife advice that didn’t make it into the show. Subscribe now in Apple podcast, I’m your host, Reshma Saujani, our producer is Claire Jones, this series is sound designed by Ivan Kuraev. Our theme was composed by Ivan Kuraev and performed by Ryan Jewell, Ivan Kuraev and Karen […]. Our senior supervising producer is Kristen Lepore. Our VP of new content is Rachel Neel. Executive Producers include me, Reshma Saujani, Stephanie Wittels Wachs and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Series consulting and production support from Katie Cordova. Help others find our show by leaving us a rating and writing a review and let us know how you’re doing in midlife. You can submit your story to be included in this show at speakpipe.com/midlife. Follow My So Called Midlife, wherever you get your podcast, or listen ad free on Amazon music with your Prime membership. Thanks for listening, see you next week, bye.