Subscribe to Lemonada Premium for Bonus Content

Chelsea Handler has made a career of saying exactly what’s on her mind. And the comedian and actor has compiled a lot of her frank thoughts in her latest book, “I’ll Have What She’s Having,” which came out yesterday — her 50th birthday. Chelsea tells Reshma about balancing her vanity with the realities of aging, being grateful to Jane Fonda for calling out her bad behavior, the positives of being child-free, and why she finally decided to address her anger with therapy in her 40s. Then, Reshma calls up her personal therapist Dr. Malika Bhowmik to dive more into the anger so many people in midlife are feeling. She offers tips and tricks to validate our anger, stop gaslighting ourselves, and eventually, move through our feelings.

Follow Chelsea at @chelseahandler on Instagram and check out her new book, I’ll Have What She’s Having.

Follow Dr. Malika Bhowmik on Instagram.

You can follow our host Reshma Saujani @reshmasaujani on Instagram.

Let us know how you’re doing in midlife! You can submit your story to be included in this show at speakpipe.com/midlife

Stay up to date with us on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram at @LemonadaMedia.

Joining Lemonada Premium is a great way to support our shows and get bonus content. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Click this link for a list of current sponsors and discount codes for this show and all Lemonada shows: lemonadamedia.com/sponsors

To follow along with a transcript, go to lemonadamedia.com/show/ shortly after the air date.

Transcript

SPEAKERS

Reshma Saujani, Chelsea Handler, Malika Bhowmik

Reshma Saujani  00:59

Welcome to My So Called Midlife, a podcast where we figure out how to stop just getting through it and start actually living it. I’m Reshma Saujani. So you all probably know by now that I’m turning 50 this year, and I’ve been talking to other women who are also turning 50, because you know what? It’s a big one, and I’d be lying if I didn’t say I’m a bit scared, not so excited about it. So when I found out that Chelsea Handler was also turning 50, and wrote a book about it, I was like, I gotta get her on the pod. Chelsea’s book I’ll have what she’s having came out yesterday, which was also her 50th birthday. Happy birthday, Chelsea. I got a sneak peek of the book, and I loved it. It’s not just hilarious, but it’s like this permission slip to live unapologetically and to make choices that are right for you, even if folks just raise a few eyebrows, this is the kind of freedom that I know so many of us in midlife are craving, I’m craving it Chelsea who, let’s be honest, she’s just made this career out of saying whatever she wants to say. She brought that same energy to our chat, and she got real real about how to feel confident in your 50s, and how to just love your body and just love your time with yourself. But the part that made me like, literally sit up in my chair real straight. Was when Chelsea started talking about starting therapy in her 40s. I was really curious about what brought her here. Like you all know, I my line that in order to go up, you got to go in. And so to me, all the ways that we go in and look at ourselves and our own demons and our own insecurities, like I want to hear all about that. And the thing is, you know what she said? What brought her to therapy? Anger, yeah, that feeling, the one that bubbles up when you’ve said yes too many times, when you feel like nobody is listening to you, when your kids are taking too long to brush your teeth, or when you’re just tired of biting your tongue, Chelsea said she was mad at everyone, I mean, everyone, and she was mad all the time, and so she knew she had to do something about it. Here’s the thing, I know what she’s talking about. I know that feeling, and I know that all of you do too, that rage. I mean, I’ve talked about it before, and sometimes for me, like my rage, it comes out of nowhere, like the littlest things set me off, and I go from zero to 100 in like a second, and with age, that intensity, that anger is just gotten bigger. I talked about my struggle with anger on our podcast with Dr Kelly Casperson, and after I heard from so many of you mid lifers that, like you want to dig into this deeper, because you want to figure out what the fuck to do with all of these emotions you want to stop going from zero to 100 in a second. Rage comes from somewhere. So here’s the thing, I don’t want you to gaslight yourselves for feeling it. This episode really gave me some tips on how to manage it and how not to suppress it. So I thought it’d be helpful to bring on not one but two guests for this episode. First, you’re going to hear my conversation with Chelsea about her amazing new book about turning 50 and all the things. And yes, you’re going to hear about her anger. But then you’re going to hear from somebody special in my life. I’m bringing on my therapist, the person I talk to the most about anger, the person who answers a lot of the burning questions I have. She’s done so much for me, and she’s done so much for my marriage with Nahal so Malika, my therapist is gonna give you tips. Tricks that are gonna help us validate our anger, stop gaslighting ourselves, and eventually help us just move through these feelings with grace. You’re gonna feel so much lighter after hearing from her, I promise you. So buckle up. Unclench that jaw. First up, Chelsea Handler.

 

Reshma Saujani  05:23

Hey, Chelsea, how are you?

 

Chelsea Handler  05:24

Hi, how are you?

 

Reshma Saujani  05:26

How are you feeling?

 

Chelsea Handler  05:27

I’m good. Thank you.

 

Reshma Saujani  05:28

Good, so I always like to start with an opener, and a lot of what we talk about the show is like our midlife mindset, like, for some people, they’re like, this is the best fucking time of my life. For some people, like, this sucks. Like, what the fuck, where do you live?

 

Chelsea Handler  05:44

I mean, I’m pretty psyched about my life. I’m pretty psyched about the decisions I’ve made that have, like, allowed me to live a life like this, to not be subject to, you know, society’s nonsense and ideas of what what adds value, or what creates value, which is procreation and marriage and all. Like, I’m pretty glad that I didn’t fall for that, you know what I mean. And not to say that there aren’t several people who have fallen for that and love it, like, I believe that to be true as well, but to know that it wasn’t for me. And yeah, I think that’s what stands out the most to me, is to know that I’m constantly choosing decisions that are right for me, rather than the opposite.

 

Reshma Saujani  06:29

Yeah, I love do you have this quote in your book where you said, I’m here to remind every woman that each of us is a queen, with or without a partner, and to encourage women to respect themselves, to love themselves, and to stop looking around at what everyone else is doing. I thought that that was so powerful and important, and ironically, so hard for us to do as women.

 

Chelsea Handler  06:53

Well, I think we’ve been, you know, I don’t think we have been trained to be such caretakers and Looker afters of others that it is only now that we’re really coming into our power. I mean, it’s been happening for centuries, because we’re women and it’s human. Our female human nature is to, you know, protect and be warriors, and we’re finally coming together. It feels like in our generations, or the past few generations, and leading up to this one, whereas even when I was in my 20s, women weren’t looking out for each other, like there is a there’s a more of a code of honor of being a woman now than there ever has been before. And that’s promising, because we finally realized, like, men are not our partners, women are our partners.

 

Reshma Saujani  07:35

Do you feel like you found that sisterhood much more so than as you got older? Like, are your friendships and your relationships with other women different now in your 50s than they were in your 20s?

 

Chelsea Handler  07:46

Well, I don’t have any fat like, there’s no one that’s in my life in a very intimate way that doesn’t really care for me and have my back. Like, there are no fake friends. Like, and in my 20s and 30s, of course, there were all sorts of people, but I didn’t care. Like, if I like someone that matters, like, whether or not they’re liked by others, is usually not that interesting to me.

 

Reshma Saujani  08:05

I was just thinking of a story that you told in your book where you would, like, go to a dinner party, and instead of being the life of the party, you’d be there to just listen and chill. And you had friends were like, well, Woody, what’s going on? I want the old Chelsea. And you’re like, Yeah. And I think that’s a great example, right? Of how you got the courage to kind of shift some of these friendships that didn’t serve you.

 

Chelsea Handler  08:26

Right? Yeah, you have to, yeah and you have to also not be upset when, when friendships end, it’s okay. It’s not the worst thing in the world. Like some people aren’t meant to be your friends forever, and you’re not supposed to. And it works both ways. It’s not like they’re just a part of your life. You’re a part of their life, and maybe that part has stopped in, you know, like it’s not so singular each experience, and you shouldn’t take it so personally. It’s kind of the way that life flows, and you can either regret and look around and be like, paranoid about what’s to come, or just embrace and accept all of the stuff that’s coming and make it less like of a fight, you know what I mean, less hard on yourself.

 

Reshma Saujani  09:05

Yeah, your confidence is really amazing. You have this annual tradition that you film yourself in a bikini, right? Like, how did that tradition start? And why? Why that?

 

Chelsea Handler  09:16

I love skiing, and I think I just took my pants off one day on the ski slope on my birthday and decided to ski down to be silly. And then again, it graduated the next year to, like, topless. Then I did, like, you know, just stupid shit. It just became a big, a big way to say, Fuck you first of all, to to just patriarchy in general. Like, don’t tell us we can’t be single, unmarried and allowed to have fun. And it actually might be a great endeavor, and that I get to live my life and do what I love, which is ski down a snow hill with a joint and one hand and a margarita in the other, sounds fabulous. It first of all. It represents everything I want to say, and it is a nice fuck you.

 

Reshma Saujani  10:05

You know, one of the things I think that is hard about getting older is, is the changes, right? I gotta fall in love with the love handles, or, like, the extra wrinkle. What’s your advice for people on how to do that? That, like, real love for your body and its changes?

 

Chelsea Handler  10:21

Well, I mean, a I would just want to be strong. First of all, I mean, not I don’t just want to be strong. Let’s not pretend that I’m not vain, but I do want to be strong. And now that I’m going to be 50, I have to be strong. So it’s vanity and it’s for the betterment of me, like it’s gonna allow me, like, I work really hard on my body all the time because I want to be fit. I want to be able to ski really rad stuff, you know. I want to be able to, like, be tossed in a situation and handle it. So I feel like you have to put work into it a and then just know that you’re maintaining your strength. Like, think about it that way. It’s like, necessary.

 

Reshma Saujani  11:05

So your book comes out today, February 25 I’ll have what she’s having. I love this book, as I told you, I loved your honesty, about therapy, about breakups, about your relationships, like it was just editing friends. I mean, I think it just is so relatable. And we get to see like, I think, how much you’ve worked on yourself, your career, and to be like the woman that you want to be. And was there a moment that happened in your life? I think you know that change your perspective, and you’re like, I need to make a change. Was it your Jane Fonda moment.

 

Chelsea Handler  11:41

I think it’s, no, it wasn’t one moment. It was a series of moments. I think, when you’re like, not right on the right track, so to speak, like for me, I always think of like, my life as a trajectory, and sometimes I fall off the track and I’m like, not, I lose focus of what the plan is, because I’m just like, having a good time over here or having a bad time over here, whichever. And so I think it was a serious and when, when you’re not on the track, like, there’s a series of bumps, and you’re like, okay, something’s going on here. I gotta, I should take a look at it.

 

Reshma Saujani  12:12

Do you want to tell like, the Jane Fonda, sorry, I loved that, because I think it was goes to what you said in the beginning of this conversation, about this point, about, like, how the older we get, there is much more sisterhood, because we’re honest with each other. You know what I mean? In ways and genuinely want to tell each other sometimes how you know the truth in order to like, have you do better, if that makes sense.

 

Chelsea Handler  12:32

Yeah, but it’s also a character. It’s it’s either some people have the really strong characters, Jane Fonda being one of them, which is why she asked me to come over one night to tell me that I had behaved badly at a party that she had had, and it was like a mortifying conversation. But I didn’t allow it to be mortifying. I allowed it to be what it was, above and beyond the mortification, which was her being a sister to me like being a big sister and giving it to me straight, which is it’s we should as we get older, act like this. We should act like this as we’re younger, too. It’s to remind each other that we’re all on the same team here. Like she acted in a way that was like, even though it was terrible hearing how I had behaved, it was so nice to be like, cared for in that way. I thought, oh, this is what sisterhood is. This is what being a sister is is telling someone taking the time to have a difficult conversation. Do you know how many times I’ve people have said I hate conflict? It’s like, well, then what? So then how are you going to deal with your life? Because there’s going to be conflict. Like, if you hate conflict, then you really are going to have problems.

 

Reshma Saujani  15:39

I wanted to talk to you for a moment about what being child free is like for you. And I read that quote in the beginning, and you said in your book a couple of times, which I thought was really powerful, is like, it’s almost like society and the patriarchy makes you feel like you are less than if you don’t have a child. And that’s part of the conversation that you’ve been having, is like, we should be you’re valuable with or without a child. You say, you know, and it’s not what society tells us. And then you said, you know, telling a woman who doesn’t want children that she’s being irresponsible but not procreating is as hypocritical as one can get. You know, I’m proud of myself for knowing what I’m capable of, and there’s still some outdated negative stigma behind being child free for a lot of women right now who are listening in this community who don’t want to have children, like, how did you go about making that decision, and what would you say to them to make them feel like they shouldn’t let anyone judge them for that choice?

 

Chelsea Handler  17:55

Well, I didn’t make that decision. That decision was just like, always in my system. I was never, ever going to be a mother. It’s just like listening to myself. And I think now more and more women are also doing the same thing. And there are, there’s this, you know, exposure of like, oh, we thought that’s what we were supposed to do. We didn’t know we could choose. And now that, if you have the choice, sub to some people, we’re not cut out to be parents. Like, that’s a good, responsible decision, and it also opens you up for so much more in your life, like you’re able to help so many more. You know, if you have four of your own kids, it’s not like you’re able to help like, you know, 15 strange kids. I do stuff like that. I send children that I’ll never meet to college, like I’m able to help so many children because I don’t have my own. So I think there’s just so many positives, and I won’t ever stop singing them from the rooftops.

 

Reshma Saujani  18:48

Yeah, and I think one of the things is people confuse being childless with not loving children. And in your book, it’s like you got so much love for your nieces and your nephews. And I think it was like, Whoopie and poopy, right? These, like, young, these names you gave, like these girls that you adopt. I mean, you took parenting classes. I mean, you’ve put so much time right in, like the children in your life, and what did you learn in them? And what made you want to do that?

 

Chelsea Handler  19:16

Just because it was like one of the girls was acting out, rebelling, and just kind of, you know, not just really, I because I didn’t understand it, and it reminded me a lot of me as a child, and I want to understand what that rebellion was, like, very disrespectful to her parents. And just like, I just, like, thought, Oh, she’s bad. Like, she’s bad, and then, like, you learn through parenting classes, it’s like they’re not bad. They’re acting that way because they’re scared. They’re scared because of something that their parents have done. Like it always goes back to the parents, and like any kid that’s acting out feels unsafe, doesn’t feel like they’re safe. That’s why they have to parentify themselves. So it was really mind opening, like I found out, like all this stuff, and I you. Was a terrible teenager, terrible to my parents, like, I feel horrible, and they really spoke to me too, from like, a parental perspective, like, the reason I behaved that way is because I didn’t have safety and security. My parents were so out to lunch that I was constantly rebelling. Because I was like, What the fuck I need some parents are over here, like, come on.

 

Reshma Saujani  20:22

Do you feel like the parenting class has helped you, in some ways, heal that inner child? Because it like, it like, clearly, gave you a lot of like, clarity and understanding why they did the thing.

 

Chelsea Handler  20:31

It just helps me understand all children. Like, when children are assholes, like, it’s easy to go that kid’s an asshole, but no kid is an asshole. I don’t know about my inner child. My inner child seems to have been healed a while ago, probably during therapy, but it’s definitely helped me remain patient with children.

 

Reshma Saujani  20:47

Yeah, no, I think this perspective is really important about we do blame children. We don’t think about parents as being, in many ways, like, responsible for like and like. I think I shit. I feel like I need to take some more parenting classes myself.

 

Chelsea Handler  21:00

Yeah, I mean, I think we could probably all benefit from them.

 

Reshma Saujani  21:03

No, absolutely. I’d love to talk about dating. I think, like, again, you’ve been so open about dating, and I think your book talks, it’s a great guide. I have a lot of women in my friends in my life that are in their 40s and 50s, that are single. Some are looking for love. Some are not, you know, and I think the book is such a powerful, just powerful for them to read. Because from your perspective, like, what are you looking for in a partner? You think at this moment.

 

Chelsea Handler  21:31

Not much. I mean, honestly, I don’t like my I feel so even when I’m with someone, I feel so independent. Do you know, like, I’m not available for that kind of relationship. I’m totally down to have a boyfriend and stuff, but I’m not living with someone. I bounce around the world so much like when I’m here in Whistler, like, this is my this is the most I’m anywhere for, you know, weeks at a time. I could be up here, but like, LA, I’m there like two or three days a week, so, like, my lifestyle requires me to be on the move, and I love it, and everything is kind of on the side from that. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, looking to pair up with someone that’s not on my agenda.

 

Reshma Saujani  22:17

Yeah, you know, I had a friend the other day. She’s like, I’ve ticked off every box, but this is like, love is like the one box that she wants to still, you know, tick off, but it’s like, I think it’s different for different people right at this point in their lives, in terms of, like, what is that relationship for them, in terms of what they actually need?

 

Chelsea Handler  22:34

Yeah, I get so much also out of my relationships with my friends. Like, those are love relationships I get. Like, when I think about, Do I want to go away with a guy for seven days, or do I want to go away with three of my girlfriends for seven days? Like, uh, I want to go away with my girlfriends?

 

Reshma Saujani  22:51

Esther Perel talks about this. She said, you know, we really, like, we don’t talk enough about, like, female friendships. Like, oftentimes, like, for a lot of women right there, they think, if they find that one, like, everything’s gonna fit into place, but they actually have love all around them, but we don’t treasure those relationships, like, in the same way. And I think part of that culturally, we’ve just taught to, like, find the prince, you know, I mean, and you will be happy and without the prince, like, your life is, like, not important, or, you know, or worthy. And I think we have to shift that entire culture, right? That tells women that.

 

Chelsea Handler  23:22

Yeah, that’s nonsense, absolute nonsense.

 

Reshma Saujani  23:26

How do you think dating is different, though, in your 50s than it was in your 20s and 30s and 40s?

 

Chelsea Handler  23:31

I mean, I just don’t give a shit. So it’s easy and it’s fun, and I want dalliances and lovers in different parts of the world, like, that’s what I’m down with. You know, you can have some repeat customers, but I want someone for over there, and someone for over there and, and I, you know, and I just want it to be casual and fun and flirty and all the stuff that’s fun in the beginning, so that, I mean, I’m not a commitment kind of girl, like, I never have been. I’ve never, I’ve never thought I hope I meet the one like I mean, maybe I thought it, but it’s not where I’m I’m at today.

 

Reshma Saujani  24:06

You have this beautiful quote in your book that says the way we love ourselves is a direct reflection of how we love others and how much we’re willing to give. How have you learned how to love yourself? Because I think for a lot of people, that’s like the hardest thing to do?

 

Chelsea Handler  24:22

Well, yeah, not and that’s very counterintuitive, I think, for also, people confuse what loving yourself means. It’s not like taking yourself to the spa and taking care of yourself. It’s actually like respecting yourself and living by a standard in which you can respect the decisions that you’ve made, that you’re not a gossip, that you’re not sitting around talking shit about the people that you’re smiling in front of, that you’re not for sale, that people can’t tell you, you know, like I’m not easily influenced. Like all of these values are important to me. They may not be important to another person. It’s like every person decides what what our system of values are and are you like. Adhering to that, especially when no one is watching. Like, what kind of person are you when no one is looking?

 

Reshma Saujani  25:05

One of the things you say in your book, those really kind of spoke to me a little bit, is this idea that like being comfortable being alone has really helped build the confidence I really struggle with that, right? Like I am, I say to myself, oh, I just wish I could just be by myself, right? When everyone’s around me, I just want to go hide. But when I am by myself, or I go for a walk, like, like, My instinct is to call somebody or turn on a podcast, right and and I think I am kind of afraid to be alone. Like, how do you how do you practice being alone?

 

Chelsea Handler  25:35

I think you have to start doing it. You just have to start doing it. And I think the art of being alone is just, first of all, it’s important to get to know yourself, because that’s where Carlo that’s where confidence comes from. You have to be able to be bored alone, without anything to do and figure it out, you know what? I mean, yeah, and so a lot of people really, really are scared of that, but it’s definitely worth it. For sure, you don’t have to spend all your time alone, but definitely not where you’re uncomfortable being alone. I just think you start doing that, you know, you take a half hour a day or an hour, and you’re like, all right, I’m gonna go for a walk. I’m not getting on the phone. I’m not talking to anyone. I’m just gonna be alone with my thoughts.

 

Reshma Saujani  26:08

Yeah, I like the idea of, like, really practicing it and making yourself be like, right? I’m not gonna call somebody right now, I literally think be alone. And I think people are afraid of being alone with their thoughts, because they’re afraid of, like, what’s gonna come up. And I, I want to talk to you didn’t go to therapy till you were in your 40s. Like, what made you start?

 

Chelsea Handler  26:26

I just became so angry. I was just so angry and, like, really irritated by everybody. Everyone annoyed me so much. Like, I couldn’t be around anyone, just like, at this high state of agitation. And it was not me that’s not really who I am. And so I guess that I know Trump had gotten elected the first time. So I just went to therapy, and was like thinking, you know, I was going in for one thing, and then you find out this whole ball of information and on you, and it becomes so dirt, like it’s it’s sad, you know, to go somewhere knowing you’re probably going to cry, it’s probably going to be humiliating to think about all the mistakes you’ve made. But then, you know, it turns into a beautiful gift, because you get the gift of self awareness, which is what therapy provides for people you know, and then you also get the gift of improving on yourself so that you don’t have to feel so badly about Matt past mistakes, because you know that you’re doing better because you’ve know you know better and you’re trying harder. So it’s kind of freeing in that way. And then you really kind of step into a newer version of yourself, which is super confident and comfortable in who you are, because you’ve done the work. So you have, you have the receipts. You’re like, okay, I got it now. I know how to be in this world, and I know how to be like, good for myself and good for other people.

 

Reshma Saujani  27:47

And you did intensive therapy so you’re going, like, twice a week, right?

 

Chelsea Handler  27:51

Yeah, for like, two years.

 

Reshma Saujani  27:53

Wow, why did you choose to do it that way?

 

Chelsea Handler  27:55

Well, I just wanted it to be like, over as soon as possible. I was like, let’s figure this out and then be done with it. Like, I thought it would be, like, a three or four week thing, like, because I’m pretty, you know, quick, I thought I’d pick it up and be like, okay, cool. And now it ended up being two years of that. And it was like, you know, work. But now on the other side of it, I’m like, Oh yeah, cool. Like, you’re not gonna, you know, you kind of, it gives you this, whereas I had this, like, kind of fake veneer before, this fake body, body suit on, before this armor. Now I really have the armor.

 

Reshma Saujani  28:31

Yeah, because I think part of what you’re talking about, too is, like, the integration. You go to therapy, you learn, you learn the thing that you, like, you need to stop doing, but then you have to, like, go do the thing, which is, like, super hard. Like, what’s your advice on that? Like, how did you do it?

 

Chelsea Handler  28:44

I mean, you just have to know you’re, like, headed in the right direction, you know, like, you’re not being selfish by going to therapy. It’s actually, I was doing it to, like, be nicer to other people, because I just found everyone so stupid.

 

Reshma Saujani  28:56

Was it like your friends, your family, or like everybody, like the person, when you’re walking down the street and like, they like, they, like, bump into you and you immediately wanted to kill them. Like, was it just everybody?

 

Chelsea Handler  29:04

Everything annoyed me. Like everything that could annoy me annoyed me, like I had no patience for anything, so that clearly, like the one through line was me, and I could see that I’m like, okay, well, if you hate everything, then you’re the common denominator here. And so I just, I knew something was off. And, you know, I just did that work and found out what my problems are. And you’re like, wait, how do I take the best parts of me with me and then create this kind of, like, 2.0 version? And then, so that takes a little bit of time too, but then again, another worthwhile endeavor, because once you get your you do take your you’re not going to change your personality, you’re not going to change who you are, but you’re going to understand why you act the way you act in certain situations, and to be a lot less judgmental, a lot more empathetic to people you know, to be nicer and. Just understanding.

 

Reshma Saujani  30:01

So any advice you feel for people that, for people listening, that might feel stuck and they’re like, damn, I’m 50, she’s like, crushing it and feeling like this newfound like joy in her like self, like any advice for them to kind of get there.

 

Chelsea Handler  30:15

You have to embrace yourself, and you have to embrace the fact that you’re 50. 50 can be vibrant, and it can be alive, and you can live your life out loud in a super positive way. And you can inject other people with your optimism. When you get optimistic about yourself, like you got to get optimistic about this life, and be like, Yeah, I’m gonna get after it. I’m gonna go, you know, I’m gonna go take a month off, if I can afford to take a month off and go ski, or I’m gonna learn how to do this, or whatever it is that it’s gonna get your juices flowing do it.

 

Reshma Saujani  30:46

I think that’s great. That’s like fucking great advice. Thank you, Chelsea, this is a wonderful conversation.

 

Chelsea Handler  30:52

Sure, my pleasure.

 

Reshma Saujani  33:53

Hey y’all, it’s me again, Reshma, I’m so excited to get into my conversation with my therapist, Dr. Malika Bhowmik, so listen, one of the things you’re going to notice is that while my sources of anger may be different than Chelsea’s, the lessons to be learned are universal. First, we’re not crazy and we’re not overdramatic. And the second, yes, we are allowed to be angry. Malika gives us great tools to stop gaslighting ourselves and move through what we’re feeling instead of suppressing it, and hopefully we’re going to do it with a little more compassion for ourselves next time. So hey, Malika.

 

Malika Bhowmik  34:37

Hello.

 

Reshma Saujani  34:38

Mid lifers, for those who don’t know, Malika is my couple’s therapist, and we just actually got off our session. We got to end it 20 minutes early, yay, because I did not want to get into a fight on Valentine’s Day. So thank you. This was actually just an excuse for me not to argue with no. So here’s the thing, this is why I wanted to talk to you. So a topic that’s been coming up a lot. With a lot of my guests, like recently, I had a conversation with Dr Kelly Casperson and Chelsea Handler is anger, and not just anger, but rage, like many of us at this point in our lives, like we’re just struggling with losing our cool, and while some of that we think is hormonal, some of it has to do with, like, life, right? So I wanted to, if you’re cool, like, I wanted to ask you a couple questions and, like, dig deeper into this, because I’m sure you see it with a lot of your clients and the people that you help. So one, Malika, do you feel like there’s a difference between anger and rage?

 

Malika Bhowmik  35:41

Yes, I do I mean, anger has its kind of place in the continuum of healthy, necessary human emotion. And rage, I think, is the kind of result of unprocessed, kind of undealt with anger, especially in a kind of in its chronic form, if it’s going on for months and years, and we’re, you know, kind of not dealing with it, especially women, especially women of color, kind of guided to pivot into other places with the expression of anger, because anger is something that there’s a history around women’s anger being dismissed as hysteria. That’s right, going crazy, right? So minimized as some sort of person who’s like, losing it somehow. And so then there’s a sort of like negating of a person you know from there. So it’s kind of been necessary for women to suppress that anger, to sublimate that anger to some do something with it so that it’s expressed in some other form.

 

Reshma Saujani  36:44

Oh, I love what you’re saying. So you’re basically like, we negate women’s anger, and so it inevitably turns into rage, because we’re like, listen to me. This is real, don’t basically gaslight me. Don’t say that this is about you. I mean, because I’m on my period, right? Like, this is actual, a legitimate feeling that I’m having, and that’s why it turns into rage, because you’re just like ah.

 

Malika Bhowmik  37:06

Yes, because it’s the it’s a legitimate feeling, and we’re also not really given much permission to feel it, because we can be easily minimized if we’re too angry, right? Women, I’m speaking to women in particular because we’ve seen men get angry, men in power get angry and be rewarded for that. Women have had to sort of really find all sorts of, you know, do gymnastics, right, to sort of come across as level headed and etc, when, even when anger and even rage is totally valid.

 

Reshma Saujani  37:33

So you counsel a lot of couples, I’m sure some individuals too, like and so you see a lot of women probably like me in midlife, right experiencing this anger. What do you think are the common triggers for midlife rage that you see in your practice?

 

Malika Bhowmik  37:50

You know, I think we are not kind of asked periodically in life how we’re doing right? Are we all right? Do we need anything? Are we okay? Is anything wrong? Is anything.

 

Reshma Saujani  38:02

Yeah, no one asked me, yes, you know.

 

Malika Bhowmik  38:04

I do, it’s, you know, it’s no one person’s fault. Like, you know, families are what families are and and upbringings are what they are. And so it’s not always part of a In fact, it’s rarely part of a family culture. To say are, how are you really right, and to sort of develop the instinct to check in with one’s own gut and say, like, am I okay?

 

Reshma Saujani  38:25

Part of is, like, that rage pops up because no one actually asks you how you feel. And so what do you tell your clients? Because you’re you’re basically saying is, like, now we have to learn how to check in with ourselves, right?

 

Malika Bhowmik  38:37

Yes.

 

Reshma Saujani  38:37

So like, is there a tactic or a tool or something that you recommend people do to to, like, build that muscle or build that practice?

 

Malika Bhowmik  38:45

Yes, ultimately, because we’re so socialized away from checking in with ourselves, because we’ve got so much to do and we’ve got to get it done, and there’s not, you know, there’s a sort of, it’s, it’s not sort of built into how we were raised or the people around us to kind of do that wellness check. We just don’t do it. It’s we’re not in practice. And so eventually that boils over, of course, into rage. And to speak to what you said earlier, like, this is why we lash out in midlife. This is why women are kind, are prone to this. I would say that what’s useful maybe, about sort of the expression of rage, is that it’s a wake up call that, like something has boiled over. We’ve it’s the moment to get in touch with yourself. If you haven’t already, you’re saying what just happened. I am full of anger and and this is problematic on all levels, and so we have to learn cross that line into rage. But what it can teach me is that I need to do I need to start checking in with myself. I need to take time to ground myself. Why am I how do I get to this point, and when did I feel a little better than this? And when did I feel a little better even than that? And when was I actually okay? What got me here?

 

Reshma Saujani  39:54

Do you think that sometimes rage is caused, like we won’t go to the details of my therapy, but like by P. People like, there are triggering people in your life that like set you off.

 

Malika Bhowmik  40:04

Of course, right? Of course, and often it’s the people we love the most. It’s the people with whom our relationships are most high stakes when we’re not getting along with our partner, it’s the most kind of crashing down experience we can have.

 

Reshma Saujani  40:18

Like so with couples, how can women communicate their anger in their relationships and at home, you know, or work, without being dismissed?

 

Malika Bhowmik  40:29

It’s such a great question, and it does vary from one place setting to the other. If you’re at work, you’re negotiating all sorts of, you know, workplace politics at home, ideally, you’ve got family that loves you and that supports you, that wants the best for you. So I would back it up a tiny bit and say, We are socialized to not be angry. I mean, it’s not always that. The issue is I can’t communicate it with to my partner. The origins are more so around. Am I okay with myself being angry? Is it all right for me to be angry. What is my relationship to anger?

 

Reshma Saujani  41:03

You’re right, it’s like, Is there something wrong with I feel that way? Like, when I get angry, I immediately think, gosh, what’s wrong with me? Like, why am I mad? Like, I must be a horrible person. I just lost my temper at someone right? Like, yes, I immediately delegitimize my own feeling?

 

Malika Bhowmik  41:21

Yes, 100% so what happens is you get mad, and then before, whomever it is, that, let’s say it’s your spouse, has any awareness around that there’s this whole journey you take just yourself on around what’s wrong with me? Why am I mad? Why am I difficult? Maybe, what’s wrong with me. I’m just being crazy. I’m being unreasonable somehow, self judgment, self criticism, self attack. And then if we’re really honoring the landscape of what’s going on internally for the person in that position, I’ll say the woman, given the nature of our conversation. But this can happen to all kinds of people. There’s kind of a dynamic, there’s a back and forth, there’s the part that says, What’s wrong with you? Why are you mad? You shouldn’t be mad. You’re being too difficult. You’re being too I don’t know, touchy something. And then there’s this other part that says, But I’m mad, but I’m mad. I am mad right now. I’m upset. I’m frustrated. It feels valid. I don’t want my anger or my, you know, whatever’s upsetting me to sort of just get, like, washed away or not dealt with or not, not acknowledged by anyone else. And so we are in this battle with ourselves. And this starts brewing and brewing inside of us. And our poor partner over here has no awareness of the sort of war that’s, you know, that’s taking place just beside them, in the in their, you know, in the partner sitting beside them. And then it comes to a fever pitch, right? It comes to that boil, and we go, why don’t you just, and you just lose it on the person, on your unsuspecting partner, because what they, what’s unbeknownst to them, is this, this, you know, again, this internal debate, this internal conflict, this way that we’re torturing ourselves, right, and privately, internally, and then it just kind of blows a fuse. You can’t do it any longer.

 

Reshma Saujani  43:05

Right, and so what are also some healthy ways in that situation? One, not to suppress and two, not to lose your shit.

 

Malika Bhowmik  43:13

Yes, this is such a good question. I’m so glad we’re looking at this to get just a great, great question, because it does feel like a binary, when we think about it, I’m either going to lose it and feel like shit that I hurt someone I love, or what, I’m going to eat it, you know, I’m going to sit here and suffer silently like, these are both shitty options. I hate them both and and neither feel fair, you know? Because basically, like, either way, my needs don’t get met. And you know what I mean, and I’m in a state of suffering.

 

Reshma Saujani  43:43

Yep, either way I lose out. Like I get fucked.

 

Malika Bhowmik  43:46

Exactly either way I get fucked, right? And so my answer is easier said than done, but it is the thing you’re supposed to do that will serve you best in life, is to, you know, if we’re backing up and looking at that internal war, that back and forth between the party that says you’re the problem, what’s wrong with you? You shouldn’t be mad. And then the party is like, I am mad. We’ve got to sort of elevate that voice as having a valid point of view, as saying something that’s real, like, you know, to sort of observe, like, okay, this part of me that is criticizing the anger that I’m feeling. Ultimately, it’s sort of silencing me and suffocating me. It’s not serving me to judge myself in this way. What would serve me better is to say, you know, my anger is valid, right? Now, I use this sentence often in my work. It’s like learning to say to your partner, something is beginning to upset me, something is beginning to make me mad. So I’m not mad yet, right? Or I’m a little bit mad, right? I’m early in that feeling. I want to raise it with you now, because what I don’t want is we’ll have a big, giant, escalated blowout fight. Yeah, I hate that fight. I hate having those fights with you.

 

Reshma Saujani  44:52

You know, one of the things I’ll notice, I’ve noticed, you know, sometimes in our therapy is like, you’ll actually push me to be angry and that you. Sometimes use anger as a tool to really demonstrate real emotion, because it then triggers the other person to be like, oh, now I see what you’re really feeling.

 

Malika Bhowmik  45:13

Yes, because anger really is always the byproduct of pain when we are hurt and sad. What we do, especially women, is pivoting to strength, to be vulnerable is not a thing we’re comfortable to say, you hurt me. That hurt me. It’s hard for us to talk like that, you know what? I mean, it’s a lot of years to say, what are you doing? You know, fuck you, right? You were screwed up, to blame the other one to be mad, to be sort of, you know, in a position of power and strength and judging the other right, instead of like, hey, what you just did that really hurt me or that really scared me. If you can feel strong and say, I’m I am strong right from a place of strength, I’m telling you, you hurt my feelings, or you broke my heart, or that scares me, or that worries me. It is my strength that it enables me to speak that vulnerably to you, that pit that changes a dynamic, because now your partner’s going, instead of defending themselves and saying, what Adam did, you did the thing and if you hadn’t done now, you’re kind of in this vicious cycle. They’re listening differently. They’re saying, oh, wait, I heard you. You’re sad, you’re scared. If you have a if you’ve got a partner that truly cares about you, they’re never going to leave you hanging when you’re saying that. You know what I mean? They are going to show up for you and they’re going to say what I do, what do you mean? And suddenly your bond is deepening, right? Suddenly something is happening that feels a little risky, because it’s so vulnerable, but it’s also like the stuff of life, right? It’s the where the depth that through the richness of human relationships lives.

 

Reshma Saujani  46:49

That was just beautiful, Malika, I’m so grateful. Thank youso much.

 

Malika Bhowmik  46:54

I’m so glad.

 

Reshma Saujani  47:08

Dr. Malika Bhowmik is a clinical psychologist who specializes in couples and multicultural issues. And Chelsea Handler is a comedian, actress and author. Her new book I’ll have what she’s having is out now. A huge thank you to Chelsea and Malika, for coming on the show. I really hoped you enjoyed the conversations as much as I did. Thank you so much for listening to my so called midlife if you haven’t yet, now is a great time to subscribe to Lemonada Premium. You’ll get bonus content like Mel Robbins telling me where her self criticism comes from and how she’s learned to take back control of her time, just hit the subscribe button on Apple podcast, or for all the other podcast apps, head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe. That’s lemonadapremium.com. Thanks, we’ll be back next week. I’m your host, Reshma Saujani, our producer is Claire Jones. Our associate producer is Isaura Aceves.  This series is Sound Design by Ivan Kuraev. Ivan also composed our theme music and performed it with Ryan Jewell and Karen Waltuck.  Our senior supervising producer is Kristen Lepore, and our senior producer is Kryssy Pease. Our VP of new content is Rachel Neel.  Special thanks to our development team, Hoja Lopez, Jamela Zarha Williams and Alex McOwen. Executive Producers include me, Reshma Saujani, Stephanie Whittle Wachs and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Series consulting and production support from Katie Cordova. Help others find our show by leaving a rating and writing a review and let us know how you’re doing in midlife. You can submit your story to be included in this show at speakpipe.com/midlife. Follow My So Called Midlife, wherever you get your podcast, or listen ad free on Amazon music with your Prime membership, thanks so much for listening. See you next week, bye.