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While Maggie Wheeler is known by millions as the iconic Janice on ‘Friends’, she has been my real-life friend for even longer. Back in the late 80s, we made our film debuts together, playing former lovers, which is a distinction we shared in real life, even at that time. And we’ve stayed close even as our lives and careers went off in the various ways lives and careers go. She and I talk about things that I knew she went through, and things I didn’t know until now. The mistreatment that Maggie experienced behind the scenes, and sometimes out in the open, still shocks me, and it reinforces the fortitude, creativity, and generous spirit that Maggie has always had. It’s my deep pleasure to be able to share my experience of who Maggie is with you all.

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Transcript

SPEAKERS

Speaker 1, Maggie Wheeler, David Duchovny

David Duchovny  00:24

I’m David Duchovny, and this is Fail Better, a show where failure, not success, shapes who we are. Maggie Wheeler is an actress best known for her role as Janice and Fiends, for those of you who didn’t watch the show, for those three people out there, Maggie played Matthew Perry’s first love interest. She had a thick New York accent and a laugh. You couldn’t forget. Maggie and I go way back. She was one of the first actors I ever met, and she believed in me when I failed to we worked together on a few projects like New Year’s Day and the X Files, and we even dated for a while way before any of that. Having known Maggie for so long, I’ve seen her fight really hard to land jobs that didn’t come easy, even when things didn’t work out, she took risks and stayed true to who she is always. I’m extremely grateful for Maggie and her friendship in my life, and I hope you enjoy our conversation.

 

David Duchovny  02:27

Hi.

 

Maggie Wheeler  02:28

Hi.

 

David Duchovny  02:29

How you nice room you’re in.

 

Maggie Wheeler  02:31

Thank you, this is the, you know, the Zoom Room, so where I’ve spent many hours.

 

David Duchovny  02:36

Yeah, I figured you had a good setup because of the voice work and all that stuff. So, yeah, you sound great. Oh, good. I just wanted to preface this by saying, you know, it’s interesting for me to to speak to somebody I know for so long and so well, because it would be you and be gay, Jason, Begay that I’ve, that I’ve done this with, and because I get to, like, research you, you know, in a way that a friend would never do unless they were a paranoid, crazy, you know, single, white, female type of friend.

 

Maggie Wheeler  03:07

Yeah, I got that feeling when you mentioned that you heard you read the transcript from something the other day, and I’m like, oh, God, he’s, he’s actually looking me up.

 

David Duchovny  03:14

He’s, stalking Maggie. But that aside, you know, it’s a nice thing to go through, because I what, what gets engendered is like a new sense of that person, objectively, you know, that I don’t have, that I didn’t have, or that one doesn’t have in life, really. You know, I don’t think of you as Maggie Wheeler. I think of you as Maggie and so researching and looking things up about Maggie Wheeler and stuff being brought to my attention. It’s a wonderful thing, because I realize what a fabulous person you are, and what a interesting career and and interesting person you are, which I always, I always know intuitively, but I’m reminded of of different versions of myself as well, that we, that we share, yeah, that we, we share. Going back, I share different versions of you in my mind. You, you have different versions of me in my mind. And and it’s, it’s not quite like ghosts, but it’s an interesting kind of, you know, ringing the changes, feeling the years, in a way that you can’t really put your finger on it’s just kind of the flavor, the atmosphere is the discussion. It’s terrifying, in a way.

 

Maggie Wheeler  04:28

It’s true, I mean, obviously we’ve, we’ve traversed many chapters together.

 

David Duchovny  04:32

Yeah, you are probably the main reason that I became an actor. And so it’s your fault. It is, and we have you to blame, and but I wanted to say that, you know, your response to me back then, which I don’t remember, you know specifically, but I get the general tenor of it as I recall, was always so supportive and. And curious and helpful, which I took for granted back then. But, you know, it’s very easy to imagine another situation in which a person will go, Hey, that’s my thing. Why do you know? Because I was not when when we met and when we were together, when we dated. I was a graduate student. Yes, I was going to be a professor of English literature. And then all of a sudden, you know, and you’re acting and singing and dancing and doing all the things you do, and all of a sudden I go, Hey, I’m going to do that thing. And you were completely kind of, you know, non judgmental, in a way that my parents or my mother specifically would not have been. And maybe this is a way to get into, you know, your childhood and your and your decision, which would have been probably covert at first, like, oh, my God, I want to do this thing, but I have these parents that might not be. It might not be, you know, first on their checklist for what they want me to be.

 

Maggie Wheeler  05:57

I mean, you know what I remember about that time, first of all, going back, yes, my parents were definitely not thrilled about the idea that I was going to pursue this crazy career. And actually it started before that, because I was a child, I was in school. I wanted to go to theater camp, I wanted to go to Professional Children’s School. I wanted to get this started very early, and I was told under no uncertain terms that I would not and should not do that. So I, you know.

 

David Duchovny  06:27

It was actually a discussion that you that you had, and they and mom and dad said.

 

Maggie Wheeler  06:32

I think my mother said, over my dead body, will you go to a theater camp? But, you know, I just kept trying and finding ways to get around it. And those obstacles actually fueled my fire. And I was so excited every time I got to kind of break the the, you know, the ban and find and join a theater company or take a class or be in a school play, or do the things I just kept following, you know, I just, I, you know, I was always a bit of a Super Bowl, you know, just kind of bouncing back and on the closed door. And I just kept finding ways to do that. So by the time you and I found each other, I was well into that. And you know, I had a few close friends who were trying to do the same thing. But you know, when I when you and I were together, and you were so steeped in your academia, and you were in many ways, not happy when you expressed an interest in exploring your this other creative part of you. To me, it was something to support and something to celebrate and and you were and you did. You dove in, like I’ve seen you do over and over, in everything that you’ve set your mind to, you just dove all the way in. You were dedicated. You were, you know, far more regular about taking class and doing scene work and all the things that by that time, I was just sort of out on the sidewalk trying to get jobs. But, you know, watching you build your actor self was really something. And then, of course, you know, that leads us to a moment down the line where I was offered an opportunity to make a movie, and with Henry jaglum, and he gave me a list of names of who might play my by my boyfriend, you know, the one, the boyfriend that I would have been break breaking up with in the film, and you and I were already broken up at that time, and he gave me the list, and I just thought, no, no, I sort of not that one, not that one. And he and he did say, well, what about David?

 

David Duchovny  08:34

Yes, and that’s one thing I wanted to thank you for as well, because once that movie came out. And of course, Henry’s movies only come out on two screens, one in LA and one in New York. So they’re not the general public isn’t aware. But, well, they were at that time. They were at that time. And I got an eight, you know, I got an agent from that, you know, it was like I existed on film because of you. It was like there was this catch 22 back then, there weren’t that many forums where you could go out and be seen. But I just wanted to go back to because I’m interested in the thought processes of a child that is in the process of breaking away from the parents or or courting the censure of the parents you know. And what is also interesting to me, because I know I knew your parents, I know your mom, and your mom is a lover of art. I mean that that your mom is a a has been a powerful kind of taste maker that is true in the modern art world. That’s true contemporary so it’s not like, it’s a push pull, when I think of it, it’s like why wouldn’t and the three of you were artists.

 

Maggie Wheeler  09:56

Yes, three artists. And you know, my parents. Were, my father passed away, but, you know, my mother’s still alive. She’ll be 92 this month. Very smart people and and their academic life was just, you know, an enormous and positive part of how they identified themselves as human beings. And so they gave birth to these three sort of radical Rule Breakers. None of us graduated from college. Each one of us dropped out at a different point in time. Oh, wait, did my sister graduate? Maybe my sister actually made it through. I might be telling a lie. I think my sister made it through. Okay, I take it back. Jenna, I take it back. You made it through. You’re the only one. I think, I think I have to double check. But anyway, I just, you know, I did not I made it through a year. I think my brother probably made it through a year. My brother, who is not with us anymore, was a musician and a painter. My sister is a singer and a songwriter. And I, of course, am I do all the wild things that I do. I’m an actor, I’m a song leader, I’m a children’s book author. I’m, you know, I’m doing I always do. I’m doing a million things. So my parents got saddled with these three artistic children and Yeah, well, because I think none of their dreams that you know, whatever that is about wanting your children to be an external representation of what you are, what you believe in, how you know, when you know people look at your children and they know all of these things about you, I think we broke those mold, that mold over and over again. And so, yes, my poor parents, like they just didn’t get that payoff. I mean, you know, yeah, they really didn’t. I don’t know how else to say it, but, but, you know, I was at my mother’s house recently, some months ago, and I went digging through a file cabinet, and I found a folder full of my school reports, and there is one failing grade after another. I actually like Xeroxed. Wives Xeroxed, look how old I am. I printed one of them. You can’t see this, but I’m holding one up for David to see. I printed a grade F report that I that I discovered there that it was not the only one. But wait, can I read this here on this podcast? Because I wanted asshole says, yes, what does he say? He said, Maggie’s. It’s very hard to read his handwriting, but Maggie’s Quiz and test grades are extremely poor. She is capable of doing very well. However, her interests appear to be in doodling during class, not in taking notes with her many absences. She has failed to see me in the lab, and may or made any attempt in catching up with all the work she has missed. Maggie must change her attitude, or she will be taking this class again next year. And that was from my teacher, Mr. Nicolo, see at the time. But that is just one of many, and I it was very late at night. I’m in my mother’s house. I was just digging through an old file cabinet, reading one after another after another, of these assessments of who I am and what I’m capable of.

 

David Duchovny  13:00

Do you think you would have that would have been shared with you at the time?

 

Maggie Wheeler  13:05

Oh, yes, definitely.

 

David Duchovny  13:07

That was read to you, or you read that. Oh, back then I read them all. How old are you?

 

Maggie Wheeler  13:12

This is 1974 so 14, you do the math. Yeah. So anyway, there’s a whole kind of book of them and and it really, I just thought about my parents, and I thought about what it is to have a kid who’s failing routinely. And, you know, I was a super creative kid, and there was just no place for me to be rewarded for that, except in the theater where I wanted to be, or or making jewelry, or making art or taking a dance class, you know, that’s where my heart was.

 

David Duchovny  13:46

And there’s a lot, there’s a lot of resilience in that pivot for you. Because, I mean, I’m sitting here, I’m sweating, because that’s, that’s kind of the origin of this podcast, was me getting an F on a on a movie review, and then me waking up the next morning like, Oh, my God, I’m not dead. So that’s what, that’s what I thought failing meant, in a way, you know, it kind of makes you stronger as a kid, to get those F’s and go, well, you know, I’m still me, I’m still waking you know, my parents seem to still love me, but I’m just, I’m just wondering, back then, you know, the shame the you know, like, what do you remember that?

 

Maggie Wheeler  14:28

Yes.

 

David Duchovny  14:29

Remember, you do.

 

Maggie Wheeler  14:30

I remember being told I was stupid and lazy. Those were the words that were, were, you know, shared with me frequently from teachers, administrators and parents, stupid and lazy. So, you know. And I feel for my parents when I read this stuff now, I think, God, that must have been so tough for them, because they didn’t have the flexibility of thinking, of thought or option at that time to think, oh, you know, this kid needs something different, where she’s in the wrong place. Yes, she should be over here, you know, I don’t know, maybe at a wall Waldorf school where I would have been making dolls and candles or whatever. I don’t know what was available at the time, but they were very focused on where they had me in school and what that meant socially and publicly and all the rest. So there was no changing. It was just a matter of getting through. But did it make me more resilient? I wonder. I mean, I consider myself relatively resilient. And that story that you tell about what started this podcast has happened to me over and over and over in my career, and especially, you know, and we’ll get there chronologically or whatever. But when I got fired from Ellen, I, you know, I did have that, oh my God, I’ll never leave the house again. I think this is the end. And then I did. I lived, you know, I fell out of that plane without a parachute, and I survived, and I went on to do friends, and all the rest of the things that followed. But it’s definitely at the core of how I’ve moved through the world. You know, these early years of being told, you know, that I was not capable of certain things.

 

David Duchovny  16:07

Yeah, it’s funny that you say I feel it for my parents, because when I read that, I feel for you, you know. And I would hope that you you feel for yourself as well. I do know and and I, you know, you talk about a school that would have suited you, I actually went to a school that would have suited you until third grade, when I went to Grace Church, which was more structural, more of a classic education, but I went to Downtown Community School, which was founded by Pete Seeger. And I know you’re I know I know your love of folk music. I can recall giving a recorder recital of we shall overcome, and blowing in the wind. You know, this was the school that was made for Maggie.

 

Maggie Wheeler  16:45

Definitely.

 

David Duchovny  16:46

It was downtown. But I’ll say this as well, that a lot of, I think a lot of people, respond to early early that stamp of early failure, of not fitting in with a certain kind of anger, you know, and that kind of defines their rebellion in a way, and that is, I’ve never felt that from you. Maybe it’s your being a middle child, you know, you’re, you’re, I think you’re a born kind of, let’s get along person, as I said in the beginning, you’re very nurturing, and you don’t have that anger. So I’m sure it was somewhere, you know, I’m sure it felt like that somewhere. But early on, I think you turned it into some other kind of knowingness of where you were going to end up. And your rebellion was just in I’m going to pursue what I’m going to pursue.

 

Maggie Wheeler  17:46

I think that’s true. I went the only way that I followed, kind of my soul, and I did what I wanted to do in spite of it all. But I think that there’s two things that I didn’t inherently possess. One was this intense sense of competition, so it’s never been the way I am. And the other was this that kind of innate desire to please a teacher. And I and while I watched my friends crank out work and exams and studying for tests, etc, because they wanted the approval of the teacher. I didn’t care. I didn’t give a shit. I mean, I think I probably did, but I transmuted it into something else, because I knew that I couldn’t reach that that goal, that was not how I was going to be rewarded. And so I stopped trying, and I and, you know, to that end, I think there were many. I mean, I was scared, it’s interesting, because I didn’t care to please them, but I was scared that I wasn’t going to so I was afraid of the failure. And I think that that fear often resulted in my mother staying up and doing my homework in the middle of the night, because she didn’t want me to fail either, right? So those D’s and C’s and F’s that I have in my report cards are my, you know, I would have, they would have all been F’s if she had not written a paper or two.

 

David Duchovny  19:10

No wonder your mom was pissed off at the comments. It’s like, hey, that’s my shit, oh, really.

 

Maggie Wheeler  19:15

What do you mean? What about that great paper? Every now and then, you’ll see she wrote a good paper. She, you know, she did hand in such and such a piece of work. And I’m like, did I really? I don’t, I’m not sure, but I have an old, old friend who did really, really well in school as a child, and she was my best friend for so many years, and still very we’re very, very close. And she was told by the system that she was excellent, and she was also told by her family that she was excellent, and that all the things she did were excellent. And so she got to a point in her life where she really had a lot of resentment for the fact that everybody said everything she did was excellent. Because when she got back out in the world and there was a bigger pool and more going on, she’s like, Oh, that’s not, I’m not excellent. You know, whatever excellent meant to her that it was because she had been fed this. You. This narrative, and then she had to go up against people who were just as excellent, if not more. I never had that. I that did not happen to me. I never was like, oh, shoot, I’m not, you know, no, I was always like, just climbing to get invited to the party. And when I did, it was like, Huh? And, you know? And it had and it did happen. It happened over and over again, yeah, as a result of a kind of, you know, I don’t know, Destiny, magic, focus worked, just believing on in some.

 

David Duchovny  20:33

Talent, yeah.

 

Maggie Wheeler  20:36

Thanks, and then each time something, a door would open, I’d be like, Oh, I got. […] okay, I can, I’ll do it.

 

Speaker 1  23:56

Jump back to New Year’s Day for a minute, because that was, that was, like, your first, like, well, big screen role, right?

 

Maggie Wheeler  24:47

Uh, yeah, I had just been on a television show. I had just done a season of a television show.

 

David Duchovny  24:52

Was that the new show?

 

Maggie Wheeler  24:53

Which was the new show you and I were dating at that time?

 

David Duchovny  24:56

Yeah, the new show which was Lorne Michaels attempt at. Having a Saturday Night Live type show in prime time. That’s what it was. That’s what it was. And you were basically a Saturday Night Live player on this you know, you were in the cast and you would play multiple characters. It was an hour long show. It was on at nine o’clock.

 

Maggie Wheeler  25:18

I don’t know what time it was on, but it for me, it was like it was heaven. It was my dream come true. And I remember I was visiting you at Yale when I got the call. And the reason that happened is because my sister’s ex boyfriend’s current girlfriend was working for Lauren, and she reached out and said, Do you want to audition? And I said, yes, I do. And she said, Okay, well, you need to write six minutes of original stand up. And you may not remember me crying in your in your college room, David, but I lost my mind. I was so straw. I thought, here’s the opportunity I’ve dreamt of like I’ve crafted this opportunity in my dreams.

 

David Duchovny  25:58

Had you thought about auditioning for SNL before that, it was, had you tried?

 

Maggie Wheeler  26:03

No, I was just a kid, you know. I mean, I had no access, but I it was there, like right in front of me. And I thought, How am I going to do this? How do I’ve never written six minutes of anything, you know, but I locked myself in my room and I did it, and I got the job.

 

David Duchovny  26:20

When you wrote those six minutes, that was character stuff, right? It wasn’t like, stand up, no, it was funny through character. And which do you remember? Which characters you you played?

 

Maggie Wheeler  26:30

Yes, I don’t remember them all. David remembers everything, by the way, people. In case you don’t know that, I don’t remember this, you might, you probably will. But anyway, I created a sketch that was Julia Child having a conversation with Jacques Cousteau about sea bass.

 

David Duchovny  26:48

Really?

 

Maggie Wheeler  26:48

Yes, where that came from?

 

David Duchovny  26:51

I don’t know. Well, I think I remember you did you would do a Julia Child of Julia? I don’t remember a Cousteau.

 

Maggie Wheeler  27:02

I don’t remember I don’t know if I could pull him up that fast. Yeah, but anyway, I did crazy things. I can’t remember all of them, but I wrote, yeah, six minutes of character stuff, and it opened the door for me.

 

David Duchovny  27:15

So then fall back. That was it. Just we want you.

 

Maggie Wheeler  27:18

I had to do a lot of improv with some great people, with.

 

David Duchovny  27:23

So it was in the cast was like, was John Candy?

 

Maggie Wheeler  27:25

Oh, well, the guest stars were everybody. It was just like a, you know, cavalcade of stars, but Dave Thomas, Valerie, Bromfield, Buck, Henry me, Maura Moynihan, I’m forgetting people in the actual cast, Bill Murray’s brother, one of Bill Murray’s brothers, yes, Brian Doyle. And anyway, a bunch of people. So I had to, I had to do a whole bunch of improv with people in front of Lauren and in front of everybody to get the job. After I did my six minutes, it was probably one of the scariest afternoons of my life.

 

David Duchovny  28:03

Amazing that you were able to get it though. I mean, because, because all those people, they know each other, there’s, they’re all like Chicago people.

 

Maggie Wheeler  28:10

Yeah, they’re all Second City, Canada. So anyway, it was an incredible opportunity for me. I worked with everybody. I worked with Raul Julia and Gilda Radner and Kevin Kline and and just, I mean, the stars that came on that show, Penny Marshall, Steve Martin, it was, it was a dream that I got to do. That was a dream. And then it got canceled. And Lauren was probably, you know, it’s not a happy memory for Lauren, it didn’t, it got it was poorly reviewed. And, you know, for me, it’s a happy memory, because it was just the most amazing opportunity.

 

David Duchovny  28:45

How many shows did you do?

 

Maggie Wheeler  28:47

I want to say 13.

 

David Duchovny  28:48

Yeah, probably half.

 

Maggie Wheeler  28:50

But then on the night that it got canceled, a friend took me to a restaurant, and I met Henry jaglum, and I was at that point I knew the show was going to be canceled, and I thought I should go to LA, because I had finally been on TV, and I thought now is the time, so I had to learn how to drive. That was not easy.

 

David Duchovny  29:10

I know.

 

Maggie Wheeler  29:13

That was tricky. And I learned how to drive, and I got my little hot license, and I got on a plane, and I came to LA, and I was 25 I think, at the time.

 

David Duchovny  29:22

So you meet jagum, and it turns into this movie. This movie New Year’s Day.

 

Maggie Wheeler  29:28

Yeah, I met him on the last the night the new show got canceled. We went at a restaurant, we sat and talked, and then he started talking to me about wanting to make a movie with me. And then I got a job. I was here for a year in LA and then I got a fabulous job doing cartoons for Rankin bass, who brought us every Anna magic Christmas special that we all grew up on, from Rudolph to the Abominable Snowman to the whole all of those misfit toy all that stuff. And I got a great job doing cartoons for them also. It’s. Came through Lorne Michaels, because they reached out to him and said, Do you have anybody you think would be good, and he gave them my audition tape. So I have to thank Lorne for that great job. So I came back to New York to do the cartoons. Henry came back to New York because he was bi coastal said, Let’s make this movie. And then the next thing you know, you and you and I were making a movie, David, our first movie, yours and mine.

 

David Duchovny  30:21

You were wonderful in that film, and it really gave you a chance to, you know, be the center, you know, the three women at the center of the film. And, you know, I, I wonder how you think of that movie thinking, and what was last time you watched?

 

Maggie Wheeler  30:37

Oh, my God, I think the last time I watched, it was with you, because we went and we did a commentary, right? Didn’t we do that with Henry together? That’s the last time I’ve seen it, and at that point, it had been the first time I’d seen it since, you know, way, way back when. I haven’t watched it in forever. But it was a really interesting process. I learned a lot. It was my first movie. It was, in many ways, you know, the way he works, sort of autobiographical, kind of just pulling from life stories. And I did things, of course, as well as you did, to kind of veer away from that and create something that was that had enough fiction in it so that it didn’t feel like this, right, bizarre kind of telling.

 

David Duchovny  31:21

That his style has kind of, you know, become almost mainstream, you know, like it’s not reality TV, but he, he, I think he was going against the artifice of acting. He was really, he was really trying to get us not to act.

 

Maggie Wheeler  31:40

It’s true, and he would sort of get angry if he felt, I mean, there were many times he chose to shoot his scene 40 times, one in particular on that movie, which I don’t And then, of course, he used the first take, but more often than not, he would be nervous about that concept, because he really he wanted the authenticity, the immediacy. He didn’t want actors to have a chance to think and start creating and start, you know, performing in any kind of way. So it made his, his relationship to directing, very specific in particular. Yes, he wanted to get it, you know, quickly. I think it affected my, my relationship to my acting enormously, absolutely interesting, because I was able to create a character and fill in all those spaces with my own thought process, with my own language, with my own and in doing so, as you say, like it kind of bypasses in authenticity, because you’re present, you’re in the moment, you’re trying to figure it out as you go. And it’s one of the beauties of improv period. But to make a movie that way is very unique, and I and it definitely changed the way I approached anything that came after.

 

David Duchovny  32:48

Really, yeah, that’s yeah. And I think it probably, you know, I’ve kind of longed to do improv since then. I’ve never, I’ve never done, like, actual kind of filmed improv. I mean, I’ve been improvi, you know, like there’s been some improvisation from time to time. And the highest compliment that that I’ve received sometimes is that, you know, that’s that whatever seemed improvised, yeah?

 

Maggie Wheeler  33:14

It is a high compliment, because it just takes you’re suddenly dropped into something that you don’t question and that you just feel is real.

 

David Duchovny  33:25

So from New Year’s Day, I guess we’ve, well, we got some fun things here. We’ve kind of skipped over Star Search. We’ve skipped over Kid Danger and skirts.

 

Maggie Wheeler  33:36

I will also, I just want to say about New Year’s Day, because we’re talking about failure.  I think it’s important to say

 

David Duchovny  33:42

Thank you for doing my job.

 

Maggie Wheeler  33:45

That you know, that movie obviously, was very successful for me, and for you, launched you into your phenomenal career. And for me, it was more of, kind of this bright moment. And I, you know, I was able to do Johnny Carson, and I was other things happened, but the focus was on you. And so that was a real that for me as a person, as an actor, as a human, dreaming and trying, I will never forget the the night that they screened that movie at the Director’s Guild, because you were like, you know, they were, it was like mods to a flame. And then, and I was standing there in the lobby, like, not quite, but it doesn’t, and I don’t say that in any way.  I say it because it’s just Hollywood, and it’s, um, it’s just an it’s just, you know, as we talk about failures and successes, that was a moment that, see, it was like seared something, you know, in me that I then had to, you know, make sense of and grapple with in different kinds of ways. I’ve never, ever it never, you know, I thought you deserved all of that. That came your way, and I and I’ve and I’ve always celebrated it.

 

David Duchovny  35:04

You have, yeah.

 

Maggie Wheeler  35:05

But I remember for myself, it was like, oh, shit. You know, this is not going to do the thing I thought it was going to do however. You know, I in the long arc of a life. I There’s not a single moment where I look back and say, I wish that had gone a different way for me. You know, my life has, like, unfolded and unfolded and unfolded as a result of every one of these, you know, hurdles, failures, whatever, these things, you know, okay, I thought I should just say that.

 

David Duchovny  35:31

Yeah, that’s profound, because I, I’ve never contemplated that, you know, I apologize for not being aware at the time or ever of that till this moment. You know, in, you know, stuck in my own narrative. I thought that whatever happened that night was about me as well. You know, whatever you know, that was my life.

 

Maggie Wheeler  36:00

And it was about you, but still.

 

David Duchovny  36:04

I come back to your magnanimity, you know, to have never brought that up to me, to have never, to have never even given me an inkling that I could have rained on your parade. I feel horrible.

 

Maggie Wheeler  36:30

How nice to do that on for now forever.

 

David Duchovny  36:34

No, but it’s okay. It’s fine. That’s good. That’s exactly what this is about. I know that I’m not responsible. You know that I didn’t commit an act, a sin of any kind, but still, my heart goes out to you.

 

Maggie Wheeler  36:48

Thank you, David. But you know what I would like to say while you explore it from that angle, I you know you in all the years beyond that have been incredibly generous to me. Have given me multiple opportunities to come back and work with you in the X Files, three times, in different in different roles, in different ways, which was amazing, and in Californication, which was phenomenal. And, you know, just different. You know you, you’ve thought of me in those moments,and I feel like.

 

David Duchovny  37:25

What I owe you is is not redeemable. No matter what I do, it doesn’t make up for the opportunity that you gave me.

 

Maggie Wheeler  37:35

Oh.

 

David Duchovny  37:36

No, it’s true, and so yes, and I don’t, I don’t, I didn’t, I didn’t try to make those things happen because I was trying to pay you back. I try to make those things happen because I think you’re great, you know, and that my only disappointment was that I couldn’t find something that really was perfect for you in either of those, in either of those, in any of those things, because I do feel like your talent is huge, and it’s also, I also see it in a way that I wish that I could have been able to, what’s the word, take advantage of it. You know, let you run free in a way that you maybe you were able to do on friends, maybe you’ve been able to do you know in other times that you’ve felt it in your life because, and that’s not out of a sense of wanting to pay you back either.

 

Maggie Wheeler  38:31

Well, I yeah, I hear you.I just think, look, we came into each other’s lives and we changed each other’s lives, yeah, and we, and we’ve continued to do that in different ways and at different times, which is the beauty of you know, a friendship, a relationship that’s lasted as long as ours has.

 

Maggie Wheeler  41:46

All right, let’s move on.

 

David Duchovny  43:10

How? This is now it’s Maggie’s podcast. Now this is good. I’ve been looking for somebody to help me with this podcast. It’s too much work for one person, I have found my co host, and it’s Maggie Wheeler, I guess the failures that, and again, I was not, like actively in your life at the time of these things. So these are things that I will be hearing about almost, I think, for the first time, because these aren’t discussions that we’ve had and, you know, they’re just kind of, you know, notes on a piece of paper in front of me. But they’re your life. So I don’t want to to go into them, you know, blithely and say, Hey, I’m in. I’m in. Yeah, well, the book of Daniel, these friends of mine and suddenly, Susan, you mentioned yesterday. So these are our three, let’s say disappointments early on, right?

 

Maggie Wheeler  44:06

Sure. I mean, the book of Daniel was my first legitimate movie job.

 

David Duchovny  44:11

This is after New Year’s Day here before.

 

Maggie Wheeler  44:13

You know, that’s an interesting question. We got to look that up, because I have no idea.

 

David Duchovny  44:16

I don’t know. All right.

 

Maggie Wheeler  44:17

I want, I almost want to say this before. It’s before, I say, before. And I couldn’t, I was, it was scary and exciting. And I, you know, I was with Daniel Stern and Timothy Hutton and all these people. I can’t even remember. It’s like, it’s a bit of a […] Cindy Lumet film, I mean, legendary director. It was so exciting. And I was cut from that film. There is no evidence of me anywhere. And as I told David the other day, I, you know, I didn’t know that I was cut from the film. Nobody bothered to tell me. And I was there for, like, the opening, you know, day at the New York and the rain, with an umbrella and a long line of people. And I said something. I said something to somebody. I must have seen someone from the crew, or somebody who knew. Who, who was part of the project, and and I, and I said something about being excited, and they said, you know, you’re not in it. And that’s how I found out was standing with my my wet movie ticket in my hand, so that, yeah, that was kind of, that was a big disappointment. It’s, it’s so long ago i i don’t remember much else, but I have obviously a very vivid memory of the of that moment in the line.

 

David Duchovny  45:23

Do you get vertigo in those moments, kind of that feeling that  woozy kind of feet, not on the ground, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. It’s an odd kind of physiological reaction, isn’t it?

 

Maggie Wheeler  45:38

Yeah, it doesn’t feel good. So now we can just jump ahead to um, suddenly. Susan, so.

 

David Duchovny  45:47

Or here’s my here’s my clever segue. Well, you were, you were cut from the book of Daniel, but you made your own book of Daniel with your wonderful husband..

 

Maggie Wheeler  45:54

Daniel, celebrating 35 years of.

 

David Duchovny  46:00

nd anyway, let’s go to the next situation.

 

Maggie Wheeler  46:04

So, yeah, suddenly Susan was a very interesting moment.

 

David Duchovny  46:08

Is that before these friends of mine?

 

Maggie Wheeler  46:11

We don’t know. Oh, that’s interesting. It’s gonna be after these friends of mine. So we start.

 

David Duchovny  46:16

By the way, you’re not in it.

 

Maggie Wheeler  46:20

It’s really too hard for me to figure it all out.

 

David Duchovny  46:21

So Maggie, the podcast, our podcast, is fantastic. It’s the best one I’ve ever done. And by the way, you’re not in it.

 

Maggie Wheeler  46:30

Okay? I you know, I’m really bad with timelines. Jelly beans in the jar. How many? When? As if this report card did not indicate that to you. I’m going to bring it up again. If it’s linear, it’s not in my wheelhouse. So when the what happened.

 

David Duchovny  46:46

Let’s emotionally, feel your way through it.

 

Maggie Wheeler  46:49

I can’t, let’s start with the fact that I got that I came out here. The Henry jaglin movie was big success for an independent film. We were, we were up for the Best Picture award at the Venice Film Festival, right? David, you may recall that we went to Venice filmed another movie. You did. I did not, I refused but we were there.

 

David Duchovny  47:12

Yeah, I was just a better person than me, just a better person.

 

Maggie Wheeler  47:15

No, you know what you were.

 

David Duchovny  47:17

Anything to get on camera.

 

Maggie Wheeler  47:19

But I watched you, and I’m like, he actually has it right, because he is just saying yes to every opportunity. And it was like, you built this ladder. You built it

 

David Duchovny  47:28

By me.

 

Maggie Wheeler  47:30

So any old way, we were in Venice and and that was a big moment. And so I signed with a new agency, and then a year into that thing, I hadn’t booked a job, and they dropped me, and I didn’t even know that was a thing, but at this particular agency, apparently, every year, they would zoom through their Rolo decks, and if you hadn’t made any money, they were just like, We’re done with you. So bad choice. I made a bad choice. But at that time, I had a young manager named James Myrie, and he was, he was an assistant to a to a different manager, but he took me under his wing, and he was my savior. He just, he took care of me. He kept me moving for the six months that no agency would take me and and at the end of that six months, I booked Seinfeld, and when that came out, all of a sudden people were like, well, where has she been? Well, where has she been? So I signed with a new agent and and now it gets a little bit blurry, but suddenly Susan happens at the same time that I am being considered for Everybody Loves Raymond and and I’ve just my oldest child is newly born, so now this has to be 29 years, 28 years ago or so, and, and I auditioned for Raymond, and I I’m in love with the script, and Phil loves me, And Ray loves me, and we all love each other. It’s very Phil Rosenthal, Ray Romano, I it’s the most my friend is sitting in the lobby holding my baby, and I am so excited, because I think this script is so funny, and I just feel like I can see my future, and it looks that way for a minute, but shortly thereafter, it becomes clear that the network has a very different idea. They don’t want somebody who is ethnic the way I am ethnic and whatever else there. They have a whole host of reasons. At the same time, I get offered.

 

David Duchovny  49:39

Jewish are you mean? You meaning.

 

Maggie Wheeler  49:41

Yeah, and so, and somewhere in between here, before this happens, I think it is interesting to say and to tell that there was another show the name of which I have forgotten. Yesterday, I was trying to, like, pull up the names of the people who helped me, but I can’t remember their names. Now. I can remember the detractor, but I can’t remember the creators. Off the top of my head but.

 

David Duchovny  50:02

It was an adolescent too. We remember what gives us pain, not necessarily what gives us pleasure, absolutely.

 

Maggie Wheeler  50:08

And so I’m really mad that I can’t remember the name of the person I want I want to recall right now. But anyway, point of this story is that there was another show that this precedes all of this. They really wanted me. The creators of the show really wanted me. The head of the network at the time said that I was too Jewish, and that, in his words, he didn’t think that I was, I don’t know what I can say on this show.

 

David Duchovny  50:35

Fuckable, is what he.

 

Maggie Wheeler  50:36

He didn’t think I was fuckable. So the people who created the show, were determined to get me the job. So they started having like it was like a Cinderella story. Do you remember this? Her name? It just escapes me for the moment. And I’m sorry if you ever hear this, because you were so wonderful. But anyway, we go through these sessions, and she tells me, never lean forward in your chair when you’re in and when you’re in this audition with this guy with this head of of the network, make sure you’re back. And I’m doing this, David, can see me doing this, make sure your back never leaves the chair. Because this, she said, she leaned forward and she said, this is a Jew. And she leaned back, and she put her back on the chair, and she said, this is a Jew S.

 

David Duchovny  51:20

Oh. Shit.

 

Maggie Wheeler  51:21

And I was like, What the fuck I don’t I’m never, I can’t make it in this town. It’s over. So anyway, that happened. Then they sent, they sent a wardrobe person to my house to look through my closet. They bought me a dress. They sent me to a salon and had my hair and makeup done. And there was a joke that they made when we were having these preparation sessions about whether or not maybe I should come in with a piece of a band aid or a piece of, you know, something taped over my nose, as if I had just had a nose job. I mean, this went deep, wow. And, of course, I didn’t get the job. It was given to a an Iowa corn fed farm girl that I went to college with, but I went through that. I went through that stupid fucking gauntlet to try to prove to somebody in control that I had value. Not the last, not the first, not the last one of many. So now we jump ahead.

 

David Duchovny  52:21

I’m just taking a moment, just letting my anger settle for you on your behalf.

 

Maggie Wheeler  52:30

Yeah, I was angry.

 

David Duchovny  52:31

I don’t blame you.

 

Maggie Wheeler  52:32

I was so angry, and I was so hurt and I was so demoralized, actually is what I was like, profoundly demoralized that I even let myself think that by saying yes to this process.

 

David Duchovny  52:45

Of course you did it was a dream job. Of course you said yes to the process, right?

 

Maggie Wheeler  52:50

So that was, that was that gave me a taste of what was to come. So suddenly, Susan, I was, I was offered the job. And that’s lovely. Is this a regular on the job? It was a regular. It was the pilot with Brooke Shields. And to be the kind of, you know, brassy body assistant, I think, I think, actually, my whole job for the pilot was your mom’s on two, you know, your boss is on four. You know, your friend is on three. Like, I think that’s all I had to do. But I was offered the job and and they were in the process of negotiating the terms of that job when Phil Rosenthal called me and asked me if I would come and read for the network for Raymond, not that I was going to get the job, but because he felt like there were things happening behind the scenes that were upsetting him, because it was being taken away and people were making decisions over his head about who was going to play Ray’s wife. And of course, let it be said that Patty Heaton was absolutely brilliant in that show. And it was meant to be that she.

 

David Duchovny  54:06

Well, I was in Beethoven with, of all, oh yes, of course.

 

Maggie Wheeler  54:10

I mean all love to Patty Heaton for for all the years of so much laughter that she brought to the world. But at that time, Phil asked me, as a friend, a new friend, if I would come and read for the network so that they could see how he imagined his.

 

David Duchovny  54:28

His show, that’s a tough position to be in Maggie.

 

Maggie Wheeler  54:31

It was tough, but I felt so fucking honored, because I loved this piece of writing that to me, you know that moment when you get something, when so much, I gotta say it.

 

David Duchovny  54:41

Speaks to your character. But go ahead, it speaks to your character. Well, that’s that’s not the normal, that’s not the average response, I guess. Fuck you. You don’t want to give me the job. Fuck you, you know, give me the job and I’ll come read it. Fuck you.

 

Maggie Wheeler  54:57

I don’t know. I’ll to me. It was, yeah yes, I will do that. I, you know, just artistically, creatively, to walk into a room to read with Ray, to be in that, to read language that felt so so, you know, organic and right to me, to be able to be funny the things that I yearn for, you know, to be given an opportunity. And many people will tell you, you know, when you’re an actor and you know that the audition is all of it. It’s not the rest. Have a good time. You’re gonna go act today, you know? And so for me, not only was it an opportunity to do that, but it was an opportunity, in a way, to say, fuck you to everybody sitting in the audience. Because even though they didn’t want me, I was still there. I don’t know, there were so many layers. And so I said yes. At the same time I was being this thing was being negotiated for. Suddenly, Susan, they got mad at me. They were not happy that I was going to go do this, even though there was no chance that I was getting the job. I was doing it as a favor to Phil Rosenthal, who I, you know, felt so I felt so strongly about what he was doing and who he was and and this connection that we all made so quickly and all of that. So they were mad. And then they said, Well, if you go, we are not going to pay you what we said we were going to pay you.

 

David Duchovny  56:09

Wow.

 

Maggie Wheeler  56:10

And so that’s what they did. They docked. I said, then do it.

 

David Duchovny  56:14

You know, calling themselves in glory, once again, glory.

 

Speaker 1  56:18

So they they paid me less than they said they were going to pay me. I did what I wanted to do, and then I went and I did that job, and then they fired me, which, oops, big not, that’s not a big surprise, but they fired me and they I was replaced by Kathy Griffin, and that was the first of several times in my life when I’ve been replaced by kind of body redheads who right? You know, I think sometimes people might look at me, would look at me and think that I could fill those particular shoes, but really, they’re the redheaded shoes, the redhead shoes, but the redheads are out there waiting in the wings from everything I get fired from. Yeah? So then that’s that. That’s that little story. And then we move on to Ellen.

 

David Duchovny  57:03

Before we move on to Ellen, I just again, I want to take a moment and just you touched on forgetting, like forgiveness and forgetting is such an interesting kind of a tandem, you know? And as I have these discussions, I realize I don’t really know the difference. And in many ways, I’m not sure anybody does. And and forgetting used to be, as you said, you think I’ve got this amazing memory, and that’s been something that I’ve been very proud of and very kind of protective of. But again, I think I could forget more, and it might be a healthier thing, you know. And there’s something about a memory that’s holding on to certain things that is not, you know, living in the present in many ways. And I think as we, as we move on in our lives, I’m continually fascinated by the distinction between forgiving and forgetting, but also just your good nature. You know, just your good nature. I want to applaud again, thanks.

 

Maggie Wheeler  58:01

And I don’t know whether having a good nature is, you know.

 

David Duchovny  58:07

This character, it’s character, Maggie, it is. It’s character.

 

Maggie Wheeler  58:11

I’m not sure what in this town. I’m not sure that the payoff.

 

David Duchovny  58:14

I don’t care about in this town. I’m just talking about in life, in human history, having character means something to me. Thank you, and it means a lot. And I think also, what I wanted to say at one point during our discussion is, and it’s clear from this discussion, is, you know, you’ve made a career out of you’ve had to get every job that you’ve gotten. I got a job X Files that enabled me to get lots of, I can’t remember the last time I auditioned, you know. So it’s the jobbing actor. I think that’s what the English called him, you know, just a person that has had to continually Fight, fight, fight, fight for a role continually worked. I don’t think people understand who aren’t actors. What a fraught and difficult and tenuous existence that is. And I think again, let’s just say it. It goes back to your resilience, character, whatever, it ain’t easy. And I you know, it’s, it’s also, it’s, it’s, there are other things that are harder, yes, and we’re not here to get sympathy, but I will say this as the artist that you are to have to go into that business and to continually prove yourself over and over again every job that you get that’s something that’s something in and of itself that isn’t seen, that will never be seen.

 

Speaker 1  59:36

Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, sometimes when I talk to young actors and talk about what this is, this thing, you know, I feel like, on some level, it’s sort of an accelerated, sort of, I mean, maybe spiritual path is a little bit too lofty, but just in terms of, like, you know, coming to know one’s self, you know, you are constantly okay, one, depending on your circumstances, one is constantly confronted with the question, what is my worth? What is my value? Is it seen? Does it exist in the does it exist because that person says it exists, or does it exist, regardless of of any of this stuff, and so for me, that has been my life’s work as a human being, it makes me a little emotional to say it, you know.

 

1:00:29

Yeah.

 

Speaker 1  1:00:32

Sorry to constantly, take that back, and say sorry everybody now and now she cries. I cry every day. So this is it was just my it was my time. I’ve been awake too long without crying. But you know that, that that’s my work, is to take that back and know that my value extends it. The source of it is not that, and it extends way beyond whatever assessment is made of me, right by anyone who has the power to say yes or no to me.

 

David Duchovny  1:01:02

And I’ll corroborate that, and I’ll say this, that the part of you that you found early in your life is the part that wants to come out and play, you know, and that’s what you are. And when you said that thing, this is a good day. I get to audition. I get to act. That’s the part that is, that is the purest expression of what an artist and what a playful, creative human being is, and it’s not the ego involved in the success or the failure, whatever. And you know you can look at yourself and know that you came to play, you know that’s what you came here to do.

 

Maggie Wheeler  1:01:37

I’m doodling.

 

David Duchovny  1:01:40

You’re still here, and bless you, you know. All right, let’s go to Ellen.

 

Speaker 1  1:01:46

All right, let’s go to Ellen. So I, after six months of no representation, I book Seinfeld. Fucking awesome. I mean, I am so excited, and I go and I do this show, and it reminds me how much I love being funny, and it reminds me that all I ever wanted to do when I was little was to be funny, and that after New Year’s Day, while I spent a lot of time trying to be taken seriously and trying to get, you know, dramatic roles and trying to, and I did do a bunch of different things along the way that felt great. And, you know, whatever la law like, just different kinds of things where I had a chance to kind of stretch out in different directions. But funny is, you know.

 

David Duchovny  1:02:27

Love to laugh.

 

Speaker 1  1:02:29

Yeah, I love to laugh. I love to make other people laugh. So I walk onto that set, I have a great time. I’m quite nervous really, because I’m in there with the big heavy hitters, but I just felt high the whole time. And then, of course, it puts me back on the map. And as a result of that episode, airing Carol and Neil Marlins, who are creating a show for Ellen, they see this Seinfeld, and episode, they get an idea to include me, and they write their script with my name in it, which then they changed to Cynthia. But when I got my script, it was, it’s every now and then it said Maggie. And I thought that’s weird, you know, like, what’s that? So then I start this process of auditioning, and it seems to be going wonderfully well, and we’re doing these chemistry reads, and they’re going wonderfully well, and it’s so exciting. And I with each moment that I am excited, more excited about it, I’m more terrified, because, you know, all the chapters that we can’t cover on this podcast, all the times that I got all the way to the finish line and got rejected there by network. You know, that is what’s in my but my my blood, you know? And I am so, I’m so again, here’s this thing that just feels like it’s mine. And I’m so scared for that moment where the suits and ties say, yeah, not her, you know. So at the time, I’m reading the Course in Miracles, Mary Ann Williamson, Course in Miracles. And there’s a moment where I open this book randomly, and I and I open to this page, and it talks about the idea that if you are consistently being met with some kind of rejection in your life, that it that you might want to consider the notion that you are carrying that story into the room, and that everyone else is just agreeing with what’s already there. And that, to me, was like this revelatory moment where I thought that is what I have carried along from my childhood, that I don’t belong at the party, that I’m not cool enough, that I’m not good enough, that I’m too Jewish, that I’m too this and that. And if I am so good at my craft, and if I’m so good at what I do, I can fool you, and you’re gonna let me in. So that’s what I that’s what happened in that moment when I read that thing, like, oh my god, it’s me. Me, it’s not them, which, by the way, it’s them, but it’s also me. It was also time to bust this kind of negative idea that I was also secretly caring, that I hadn’t taken responsibility for, that I hadn’t named so here I was like, I’d gotten all this way, and it seemed like it was done a done deal, but I knew what was coming, and I knew that’s where it could all fall apart. I read this thing, I have this epiphany, and then about 20 minutes later, my phone rings, and it’s my agent. She says, Are you sitting down? And I said, no. And she said, Well, you should sit and so I sat, and she said, You got the job. And I said, What? And she said, You got the job. I said, but I didn’t go to the network. And she said, That’s right, you don’t have to go to the network. You just got the job. So that to me, that moment in my life, I can’t ever forget that moment. I can’t forget the that, like this kind of moment that that I had this, you know, kind of quantum leap in my consciousness, and that this kind of cause and effect thing that happened right afterwards. You could call it anything. You could say it’s just batshit. But you know, for me, it was like the magic of when the universe works.

 

David Duchovny  1:06:11

I thought you were gonna say, I told my agent, fuck it. No, I’m gonna go in an audition. I’m gonna win this thing. And then you went in.

 

Speaker 1  1:06:17

You didn’t get it. David says, my character, I go anywhere? No, anyway. So that’s what happened. I got that job without going to the network. The good news is, that’s what happened. The bad news is, they don’t like it when that happens, because they like to pee on the tree, and they like to say, I chose them, and they like to say those things. It’s not you don’t make friends when you get to skip that.

 

David Duchovny  1:06:36

That’s not in your thought process at all at this time. No, not at that time. Why would you think that?

 

Speaker 1  1:06:41

It became clear so and then, and then, you know, as things began to sort of unravel on that show, because of, you know, there was a lot of tension behind the scenes, and all kinds of crazy things happened. And then, and then they started changing my character in the script, writing it differently, creating different scenarios. I again, I had to do some really weird, humiliating shit, and then I was really confused. And there was one writer who was kind of behind the scenes on my team and talking to me about it and telling me what was actually happening. This writer was kind enough to give me the heads up and say, like, this episode is your test. If you, if you can, can’t do this. They’re gonna fire you. But I spoke to the creator of the show I call on the phone in an you know, at night at home, and I said, What’s happening, you know, like you’re rewriting this character completely, like, what’s happening? And he and he said to me, I think I made a mistake when I hired you.

 

David Duchovny  1:07:38

Jesus Christ.

 

Maggie Wheeler  1:07:39

I think it was a mistake, because I saw you in the Jaguar film, and I and I thought you were funny, but I think maybe comedy is not your milieu. And and I thought, you know, nice Maggie, who, you know, I the lion doesn’t roar that often. But I was just like, I didn’t say it, but I was just the fuck you. Yeah, you know, you don’t get to tell me I’m not funny. Fuck you. So that’s what I felt in every cell of my body. They fired me from that show. It was incredibly sad for me. It was my first really big public job. Everyone knew it was gonna last forever, one way or another, and it was really heartbreaking. I was a human I was humiliated. I was sad. I was so embarrassed. I never wanted to leave the house again. And and then came friends, you know, like, yeah, I got through that. I licked my wounds. The audition for friends came up, and I felt free, and I felt like I knew exactly what to do with that audition, and I didn’t have to edit myself, and I didn’t have to do anything. And it wasn’t about getting the job. It was what we were talking about earlier. I’m like, I’m gonna go fucking have a good time, and I went in there, and I brought her to life. And I did that because, as you know David, we know her.

 

David Duchovny  1:08:53

I knew her before.

 

Maggie Wheeler  1:08:55

You knew her a long time ago.

 

David Duchovny  1:08:57

When I saw you doing that on that show, I was like, I know that one.

 

Speaker 1  1:09:01

But that was it was like this liberation, this moment of total liberation, yeah, without any expectation. We didn’t even know what was friends. It was just, you know, I was, I think I was on the third episode. They may have known, but I didn’t know.

 

David Duchovny  1:09:13

It was just another I don’t think anybody knew. I don’t think anybody knew at that point. And then that’s 10 years of doing, how many episodes did you do? Don’t know, yeah, a lot, yeah, I don’t know.

 

Speaker 1  1:09:26

Friends, fans know, but it was a beautiful thing that happened after something, after something really, you know, difficult.

 

David Duchovny  1:09:36

Yeah, my hope is that, you know, we can, we can find the 60 minutes of this conversation that we’ve had, probably close to two hours and and that people can get a sense of of who you are you know, beyond what they might know from friends or whatever you know, because that’s a certain kind of, you know, I see you out there. Talking about it, and I say, oh, yeah, well, that’s, that’s, that’s kind of a piece of Maggie, you know, but there’s so much more to you and to your career. And I just hope that that people get a sense of the resilient person and the fighter, really, and the team player and all those things that we’ve touched on. So that’s my hope. That’s my hope.

 

Speaker 1  1:10:23

David, you’re a rock star. Thank you so much. I love what you’re doing with this podcast.

 

David Duchovny  1:10:30

Thanks, Maggie. I love you.

 

Maggie Wheeler  1:10:33

I love you.

 

David Duchovny  1:10:34

Let’s get together in person. Oh, and it should be said that this entire interview was done with Maggie having a broken arm, so that should be taken into account and scored accordingly. This was all everything she said was with a broken arm. That’s right, I’ll talk to you later, Mag.

 

Maggie Wheeler  1:10:50

Okay, love you.

 

David Duchovny  1:11:05

Hey, just some thoughts after my discussion, my conversation, my reconnoitering reconnection with Maggie Jacobson Wheeler, you know, Maggie and I have been close. We’ve we’ve drifted apart, we’ve been close. We’ve always stayed in touch. And, you know, to kind of experience firsthand again, you know, things that we went through, but also then the life that she led afterwards, and to to go through the successes and the the losses of that and to chart them together as friends. That’s the wrong word, right? Because she’s associated with that show, but to chart it, you know, and to feel it again, and also just to be so damn grateful that I had the good fortune of meeting Maggie when I did her being an actress, and me seeing that it was a possible life, that it was an aspiration that human beings could have, aside from academia, and then to realize how lucky I am to have her as a friend. I’ve been lucky as a human being, historically, to have Maggie is part of my life, almost my entire life. We were there and we were witnesses. Many ways. We’ve witnessed one another’s lives, families, careers. And I have great love for her for that.

 

CREDITS  1:12:55

There’s more Fail Better with Lemonada Premium. Subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content like more of my behind the scenes thoughts on this episode. Subscribe now in Apple podcasts.  Fail Better is a production of Lemonada Media in coordination with King Baby.  It is produced by Kegan Zema, Aria Bracci, and Dani Matias. Our engineer is Brian Castillo.  Our SVP of weekly is Steve Nelson. Our VP of new content is Rachel Neel.  Special thanks to Carl Ackerman, Tom Karpinski and Brad Davidson, the show’s executive produced by Stephanie Wittels Wachs, Jessica Cordova Kramer and me, David Duchovny.  The music is also by me and my band. Lovely Colin Lee. Pat McCusker, Mitch Stewart, Davis Rowan and Sebastian […].  You can find us online at @LemonadaMedia and you can find me @DavidDuchovny.  Follow Fail Better wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon music with your Prime membership.