Subscribe to Lemonada Premium for Bonus Content

To me, there are few sitcom characters more memorable than Steve Urkel on Family Matters. So getting to talk to the actor Jaleel White — about his approach to acting, his take on Hollywood in the ‘90s and now, and what it’s meant to have a character follow him into adulthood — was as illuminating as I’d expected. As a pillar of show business and an astute observer of it, Jaleel is someone whose perspective I deeply appreciate. Plus, his new memoir ‘Growing Up Urkel’ is thoughtful and nuanced, and I’m grateful we could reflect on it together.

Follow me on Instagram at @davidduchovny. Stay up to date with Lemonada on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram at @LemonadaMedia.

Joining Lemonada Premium is a great way to support our shows and get bonus content. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

For a list of current sponsors and discount codes for this and every other Lemonada show, go to lemonadamedia.com/sponsors.

Transcript

SPEAKERS

Jaleel White, David Duchovny

David Duchovny  00:00

Hi, I’m David Duchovny, and this is Fail Better, a show where failure, not success, shapes who we are. Jaleel White is an actor, writer and producer. He is most famous for his portrayal of Steve Urkel on the hit 90s sitcom Family Matters at just 12 years old, Jaleel created an iconic character defined by his nasally voice, high water pants, thick glasses and memorable catch phrases. Urkel and his alter ego, Stefan. Urkel challenged assumptions about black characters on TV and came to be cultural touch points. But in his recent memoir Growing Up Urkel Jaleel, opens up about why being so defined by that role impacted his identity and career afterwards. Jaleel doesn’t hold back about the downsides of rising to fame at such a young age, and his honesty was super refreshing and fun. Here’s our conversation. By the way, we had a little bit of a traffic jam almost derail us when we recorded this before, and on the same day, I stumbled on the news that Alvin Poussaint had passed away. He was a renowned psychiatrist and often looked to as a black culture commentator in the 80s and 90s, which really got me thinking about jaleel’s most famous role. And so that’s where we started this conversation.

 

David Duchovny  01:25

I just want to thank you for coming and talking to me. And I really enjoyed your book.

 

Jaleel White  01:29

Thank you, bro.

 

David Duchovny  01:30

And you know, today, as you know, I was, we were trying to do this in Santa Monica, and I was stranded on the 101, for about two hours. Policy giving it out. So we turned it around. And sometimes I think, you know, I hate when people say, everything happens for a reason, I mean, but it’s our job to kind of figure out what that reason is. And in the time between not being able to talk to you this morning, and now I just got on my my iPad to look at the times and two things, I saw two alerts, which made me think, well, maybe this is how we should start talking. The most important one is that Alan Toussaint died, the black psychologist who was Cosby’s main guy, right? So, and I’m reading this obit about him, an amazing guy with revolutionary kind of ideas. I mean, he said, he said, at one point, it’s time for the American Psychiatric Association to designate extreme racism as a mental health problem, you know, as an actual diagnosis. I wouldn’t disagree with that, which I find interesting. But he also said, Here, it says, Dr Poussaint became a go to commentator for journalists looking for insight into black culture when family matters. Another sitcom centered on a black family featured a brainy, goofy teenager named Steve Urkel. Dr Poussaint was on the case. This is what he said. Quote, The fact that he’s a nerd and very bright may be a step forward. He told the New York Times in 1991 accepting that a black kid can be bright and precocious and might end up in an Ivy League school. So I just thought.

 

Jaleel White  03:17

I like that kind of deep dive, wow.

 

David Duchovny  03:18

Well, I wonder what Jaleel would think of that, you know, because I didn’t necessarily want to get into this stuff right away, but here we are because that’s what happened, and I want to tread lightly, because I want your experience. But I’m wondering how you’ve been able to navigate the past kind of refocusing of black artistry of the last 10 years, especially in Hollywood, and being attacked as you were in the in UCLA class, you know, kind of that kind of judgment on your character. And I wonder where you sit today and tell me about Tucson, or whatever you want to talk about with with Urkel in in its place, in the culture, in that character’s place.

 

Jaleel White  04:02

Well, one that was, I never knew he said those words. I actually sat right next to him at the Final Four in the Meadowlands.

 

David Duchovny  04:08

Who was playing?

 

Jaleel White  04:14

I want to say […]

 

David Duchovny  04:17

Because we’re both players. And I think.

 

Jaleel White  04:19

I heard it was a rumor.

 

David Duchovny  04:21

It’s not a rumor, it’s the absolute, can’t wait […]

 

Jaleel White  04:23

Till we get to that. I can’t wait not you know, I mean, it’s a broad question, considering my age and I’m a father now, I think the easiest way for me to answer that question is, for me, at least when I had my daughter, it put a lot of life just in the context that character, which people would think hurt me so much or he hates that he gets over that, not that character saved my ass my participation in that show. Financially, it allowed me to bring a child in this world and focus on on providing the best there was for her.

 

David Duchovny  05:10

So you came to a place of gratitude.

 

Jaleel White  05:13

I can’t, I was I always lived in gratitude, even when people would give me a hard time, because I knew what the reality of my life was we do some pretty cool stuff. David, right, we meet some pretty cool people. We see some far off lands that people would not, you know, may never even get a chance to lay eyes on in their lifetime. So my daughter just put a lot of things in proper context. I even remember I always do this. I always kind of venture into a story about, please do that, kind of like answers your question, but at the same time, it expresses how I feel. And I remember I was trying to get her into this particular elementary school that’s not an easy elementary school to get kids into. And I was not married. I was very much a single dad, so I’m kind of like toughing it out in the back while all of these other couples around me, you know, present themselves as the power couples, elite couples of LA, and I was just by myself, and what they did at the school was cool is they had six kids up there that were in the sixth grade, and as parents, we got a chance to ask questions to the kids. And that’s actually the best way, I’m telling you to evaluate a school ever, is just pay attention to the kids, because your kid is going to become a version of the kids that.

 

David Duchovny  06:24

You see absolutely true. You know when, when my kids were applying for colleges, you know, they they spent all this money to go all over the country just to look at a school, when, in fact, it’s all about the kids, because those are your peers, and those are the people that are going to define your memories at the college, not whether or not you like that building or you like their sports dance, right? But go on so, yeah, right.

 

Jaleel White  06:46

Do you want to be one of these guys, right? And, and we were done with the the Q and A with the kids. It was predominantly white kids, yeah, just to be real, though. And it was a couple of black kids on the stage, though. Um, though, but they all came running down off the stage to meet in the back and and the kids were like, is it really you? It’s really you. This is like, you know, this is like 12, 13, years ago at this point, and it’s like, you’re the guy from that show. And it turns out, all of them were watching me in syndication, sure, but one in particular I remember. His dad was Mike White, and my dad’s name was Michael White, and the kids name was Mike White and and I said, I’m curious, what do you want? When are you watching my show, though? And he said, he says, oh, I watch it every morning before I come to school. So I checked the dial, and I figured, I was like, rich kid Bel Air. I was like, where is he watching it? And it was our show was airing on b, e, t, right, but on the dial that is near Nickelodeon and Disney Channel. And those are the, those are the neighboring stations so.

 

David Duchovny  07:59

Do you think he got there by mistake one day.

 

Jaleel White  08:01

So what was that, you know, where I had it. So I thought that was so cool that I had this white kid in Bel Air watching our show on unknowingly on BT every morning, and I was able to, just my performance, was able to create that brain.

 

David Duchovny  08:18

But also I was thinking, you know, the gratitude around the public. You know, it’s something that I have dealt with too, when you get when you get such a mega success around one day, and you feel trapped a little bit at first, and then you realize that’s your problem, you know, and it’s up to you to continue to work and continue to grow, or whatever it is you’re going to do. And then time passes, and you just come to this sense of gratitude.

 

Jaleel White  08:44

I didn’t really feel that trap, though, to be quite honest, until I got to college, a little past.

 

David Duchovny  08:48

Yeah, but that’s young, that’s still young, sort of feel trapped at 21 that’s when, that’s when people are starting to feel open.

 

Jaleel White  08:54

Yeah, and it was just like, that’s what, all of a sudden, I was another level of cool. It kind of caught up to me. And, you know, they were, you know, yeah. But anyway, the point was, in that moment, I could see in the other parents eyes, like, oh, they still know you. And all of a sudden the faculty was really nice to me. And needless to say, my daughter got into the school, yeah. And it was just, you know, it was one of those kind of moments where it’s just realizing that, just realizing that, just like life is very cyclical. And, you know, be patient. Be patient.  I went to see Lawrence Fishburne performance, Thurgood Marshall on Broadway one man show. He crushed it, and he had one of his employees obviously scouring the audience for for anybody that was in the business. And I got tapped, and he said, Hey, you know, if you want to come back and say, what’s up to Lawrence at the end? Yeah, absolutely, man. I went back and pay my respects, and I just remember him. Uh, offering me the most subtle words of encouragement. He said, you know, everywhere I went, people would recognize me for this, gosh, this basketball movie he did. Now I’m forgetting the name of the […]

 

David Duchovny  10:12

Basketball movie […]

 

Jaleel White  10:16

Gosh, and Earl, and Earl, cornbread, early Bingo, there you go. I think you know it all right  bing[…] Twitter points for David.

 

David Duchovny  10:25

Was he cornbread, early?

 

Jaleel White  10:26

Cornbread, so he was like, he said, man. He was like, you know, when I would come to the theater, everybody would say, cornbread, he’s like, I got so sick and tired of and, you know, all these years later, now I have the opposite problem. He’s like, I can’t ride the subway anymore, and everybody calls me Morpheus, and he just kind of gave me a pat on the shoulder, which is like, hang in there. You’re on the right path.

 

David Duchovny  10:47

I miss cornbread.

 

Jaleel White  10:47

Yeah, exactly.

 

David Duchovny  10:49

But going back to Tucson, that stuff, and I’m just wondering, you know, as you’ve watched Hollywood kind of try and catch up to the social movements of the last five or 10 years, or trying to break out of certain stereotypes. I wonder, were you ever, first of all, were you ever aware that you’re, you’re kind of breaking a black male stereotype by as to sound said, you know, this is a new this is a new type. And then probably on the on the back side of this kind of getting called out for not being a different kind of black person. I wonder if you went through any of that.

 

Jaleel White  11:31

Oh, no, you mean you nailed it right on the head. You know, growing up as a kid auditioning, I was never black enough. I was on the short side. I had braces towards the end of my child acting auditioning period. So when that character came along and Urkel came along, I was actually relieved, because I was like, oh man, this actually fits what my look was. I always loved film. My dad was. That was the thing between my dad and I, we always went to the movies. So I watched everything. And I think to In short, I don’t think show business has ever given brown and black faces credit to the degree to which we were influences by faces that were not brown and black. That’s interesting. So that would be considered heady, scholarly, academic, to be influenced by something so different, not instinctual, not instinct. There you go, right? And, and, and it was like, nah. So at the end of the day, I always tell people, and I don’t hide it, even in my book, growing up Urkel, I’m like, I was basically a black kid that was doing a really bad Ed Grimly and Pee Wee Herman impersonation, and because I would inject soul here and there at times, that was closer to what I really was in real life, it came off as an original character. And that’s the way I kind of taught myself and then refined what it was to create characters was to find an archetype and be like, Oh, just kind of impersonate that guy. But right, put a twist on it here. Put a twist on it. That’s what everybody twist on it there, exactly.

 

David Duchovny  13:10

I mean, you listen to rock and roll, it’s all coming out of Jimi Hendrix at some point, there you go. And you know, we’re all coming out of Brando. You may think you’re coming out of Martin Short. But you know, everybody who’s doing serious screen acting now is coming out of Marlon Brando. So we’re all doing imitations of imitations of imitations. And if you’re using your imagination and creating your putting your own soul on it, then it is a new character. Because you are, you are, I am unique, and it’s going to come out in a unique way. But I’m wondering, you know, you never, like a 12 year old is never thinking, oh, I’m going to be an archetype of some kind. And then, but then when you get older, and let’s take it to that, just that moment in UCLA, explain to people so they know they know you, but you explain it because you know better than me, but I know.

 

Jaleel White  13:58

I’m impressed you read it, though a lot of people will talk to you later […] I book.

 

David Duchovny  14:03

Look at all the markings.

 

Jaleel White  14:05

This dude is dope, man. This dude is dope.

 

David Duchovny  14:08

Those could be nonsensical markings. I could have just done that in five minutes before, but it’s not true. I’m ready. I’m ready to talk to you, and I find it very interesting. But you know, yeah, tell us you, you’re 20 years old now the show is over.

 

Jaleel White  14:23

Yeah, the show probably actually wasn’t over. I did the show from 12 to 21 so I was still doing the show, but, but once again, the show was aging out of my own demographic, so meaning my actual peers were probably not watching our show.

 

David Duchovny  14:38

And also, the culture is changing, man.

 

Jaleel White  14:40

It’s East versus West, and rap, it’s Pac versus Biggie. You know? It’s, everything’s baggy, everything’s hard, everything’s tough. Image.

 

David Duchovny  14:48

And you’ve got an all white writers room, yeah, that’s.

 

Jaleel White  14:51

Yep, yeah, and I was just sitting in class one day for a this is […] UCLA history broadcast. Television. And so she starts at the beginning, you know, from radio. And then after a while, she starts talking about TGIF, and I’m sitting in the classroom squirming like oh, and I could feel it coming. And, and she starts talking about family matters and my character specifically, and she was a black woman too, and she starts describing the character as a Sambo and a character that was intentionally created to for whites to enjoy, because it was non threatening. Those were her comments. And people are just, I mean, this is before camera phone, so people are just squirming horribly for her because I’m in the class, and she has no idea. And she actually wrapped up her lecture uninterrupted. I didn’t interrupt at all. But somebody told her, and she came, you know, walking up.

 

David Duchovny  15:56

Had you dealt with that kind of interpretation of your character?

 

Jaleel White  16:00

You know, I had, again, not being, not falling into the category of being the 90s black male image, which I just have to say, just to make it easy, was like Michael Jordan or Tupac, you know, it’s just, you know, that’s pretty much what it what it was. And then comedically, you could say Eddie Murphy, you could say, you know, right? Not falling into any of those, those those clear, defined archetypes, you know, left me, you know, searching for myself a bit, but I had never felt attacked. You know, black folks show me so much love wherever I go. And I have to, I always have to clarify that that the opinions of a few academic elite or the opinions of, you know, wannabe thugs, is not necessarily the opinion of the majority, and the majority is, I’ve been shown an incredible amount of love by by my community, in hindsight, um, especially millennial black males too. Like millennial black males, they show me so much love because they grew up being two things at once, right? See, being in a kid of the 80s and the 90s, you were one thing, you were the jock, you were the nerd, you were the right and now, because everybody looks at themselves as a personal brand, as a, you know, it’s not even shocking when I see, you know, Nigel Sylvester for my brand Jordan. So I just, I don’t know I’m at because I know that at the end of the day, I’m here to inspire people, you know, spread joy, toil in comedy, when not when I, when I get the chances to, yeah, I once, I had, once I had my daughter, any attacks like that just kind of went away because I really, because I realized I was like, I’m a dad who gets to take care of my child, though, at a high level, right? And that’s, that’s a super duper blessing anywhere on this one.

 

David Duchovny  18:04

So what happened at the end of class? Did you you went and you spoke to her, right?

 

Jaleel White  18:08

No, I didn’t. She came up to me and somebody.

 

David Duchovny  18:11

Told her […]

 

Jaleel White  18:11

Yeah, I was salty. I won’t lie, I was I was salty, and I didn’t want to say anything to her. And it’s just one of those kind of moments where I look back and I’m glad I didn’t challenge her in class, and I just kind of took it on the chin, because in hindsight, there was nothing to gain, right? But, you know, she apologized. She tried to offer me some meager apology, but it what was more annoying was you and I both know, David, there is the reality of the business, and then there it what it is to study our business, right? And so everything coming out of this woman’s mouth was was just so woefully incorrect about how things get fixed on the fly, how development processes break down. I mean, I talk about that in a book extensively, that it was like, listen, we are a result, family matters, at least as a show of failed development. You know, that character was allowed to blossom because we were at the show was at the end of a 13 episode order.

 

David Duchovny  19:11

It wasn’t even a way at that. Yeah, it is. You didn’t start exactly, you know. So you were the Savior, straight.

 

Jaleel White  19:19

I literally came in on episode 12 of a 13 episode order. So imagine […]

 

David Duchovny  19:24

You were the deus ex machina. You were the Savior. You came in and saved that show. So that show was a failure, right?

 

Jaleel White  19:31

So, you know, I’ll let you say for me, I just it. I just marvel at the timing of it all, and just got it work.

 

David Duchovny  20:05

I go back and I look at your work, and I knowing that you’re a ball player. It’s very athletic like and I can see your approach to acting is athletic, which is like mine, because I come from sports too. I found acting after I fell in love with sports. That’s what’s up. And then I I love the team aspect of it, and I also love the preparation, and I love game time, you know. And I can see it, even when you’re 12, you know, I can see you, you’re like, ready to go at the buzzer, you know. And I just want to maybe talk a little about your approach to acting, because I think what gets lost in you’re always having to discuss Urkel, or whatever, whatever you’re going to discuss is like Urkel the phenomenon. But what I find fascinating, I really think that character is one of the greats. I don’t know that that show is one of the greats, agreed, but I think, I think that character is a piece of genius from a 12 year old kid, you know. And I’m wondering, how you know, how does that 12 year old approach it? How do you now approach your work? Is it the same kind of a thing? Or, like, take me back to that point where I’m imagining, you know, you’re 12, you’re just doing everything that comes to you. You’re like, you’re just making decisions on the fly that are happen to be great decisions. So, but just talk to me a little about that.

 

Jaleel White  21:23

Nah. I mean, first of all, man, thank you for the compliment. Dan, nah, thank you for the compliment. Man, you know, I definitely approached acting for the from an athletic point of view, even my dressing room I actually had remade as an NBA locker room.

 

David Duchovny  21:41

Yeah, and you like to have a little, not a sweat gone, but you like to be, you like to warm up.

 

Jaleel White  21:49

I just, I like to be hyped, yeah? I, you know, I would work with that energy. I would like to try to keep things as fresh as possible. So even when it came to rehearsal, I think I always was inclined to rehearse to the extent that I felt I got it. And then now, let’s take, let’s pull back on, on the rehearsals. Yeah, I think, like some of the Disney Channel way, sometimes they just, they just drill it in the ground with those five, six times, like, Come on, guys, come on, come on, come on. So I always loved the rehearsal process, but I always loved leaving a little bit on purpose that I knew I might add in on on tape night. Yeah, and I didn’t realize at that age that I was being afforded a comedic power that most people are not privy to being allowed to ad lib, being allowed to not show your whole hand until show night, being trusted by your show runners and your your and in the studio like.

 

David Duchovny  22:52

How soon did that start happening?

 

Jaleel White  22:54

That started happening as early as 14, like 13, 14.

 

David Duchovny  22:57

Two episodes in?

 

Jaleel White  22:58

No,age 14.

 

David Duchovny  22:59

Oh, age 14.

 

Jaleel White  23:01

12, and 13 I’m just, I really am just a kid out there that’s under the I’m under some pretty good direction, too. Just playing, yeah, I’m just playing. I got, I had rich Carell and Joel Zwick as our primary directors. John Tracy was one of them too. We had a rotation of directors. He’s talking about 2224 25 episodes this season. Yeah, where if I do anything David at a regular clip with rehearsal, I’m just gonna get better. That’s just the way my brain works. So they just repetition for me is a good thing in anything that I decide doesn’t get stale. For you now, now it’ll I will see myself. I’ll watch myself, like, improve. Like, okay, I saw that move. I saw that. You know, I in basketball. I our coach had one of those shooting machines that we have to shoot over the top of it into the giant offender. Yeah, right, and so the ball would always spit out at the elbows, and he just moved it into the left elbow on the right well, for he ran this flex offense that was outdated, but that’s my best shot in basketball to this day, because repetition, yeah, you’re always coming off catching it at the elbow.

 

David Duchovny  24:12

Muscle memory.

 

Jaleel White  24:13

Muscle memory, exactly. So, um, learning that about myself. You know, once I start to love something, I want to just like I want to just do it over and over again, because once you can get to muscle memory, now you can really start to create and then the nerves go away. Yeah, oh, man, absolutely, yeah. Like, did you have to deal with nerves at all when you were, you know, I every now and then I would, because I would put a lot of pressure on myself to nail it the first time out, right? Because in front of a live studio audience, once they see it, the laughter is just going to die down after that a little bit and a little bit and I can hear it. So if I had very involved scenes, I would get a little nervous sometimes before I hit that door, that Winslow front door.

 

David Duchovny  24:58

Yeah, that makes sense. But, you know. Aside from the physicality of it, or the the athletic quality of acting, which I think we share, what, where did you find? When did you know that you had that sense of timing? That is, that is unteachable, because the things that you’re talking about are practiceable and teachable in a way you know, you can have help somebody’s blocking with you, somebody’s directing you, run you through that program, you know, 10 times, and you’re starting to get it. But there’s something about you, which you can see when you watch your work, and about, you know, really fine comedic actors, which is just a timing that is natural or to them, and is their timing is really their signature, and you mentioned listening to the audience, so there’s a feedback loop you’re engaged in there, and it’s also affecting your timing, because you can’t, like, there’s often two jokes in a row you got to wait, you know, so where, at 12 you’re just feeling your way through you just have it is that, was that your experience of it, that I have this gift, and I’m just going to keep doing it again.

 

Jaleel White  26:05

I think the beautiful part about having grown up in the 80s and 90s is I didn’t see it as a gift. It was just me being me. And if anything, I was, I was in awe of your Eddie Murphy’s and, you know, suffice it to say, I wish I could say another name, but you’re Bill Cosby’s at the time. Yeah? Sure. Everybody only living color. Oh my gosh, yeah, you know. So all of my inspirations were always generally coming from adults. Every now and then there’d be a kid who I saw was like, Oh, this dude is funny too, and they wouldn’t even necessarily be the most celebrated kid I remember, I loved, and I always remember his name, Bryce Beckham. He played Wesley on Mr. Belvedere, exactly that you wouldn’t exactly.

 

David Duchovny  26:52

You know it is for me. And I don’t remember her name, but she actually wrote a memoir too. She was on iCarly. She was oh, Jeanette McCurdy, I remember seeing her and Shia LaBeouf I saw on Even Stevens. And I was like, I tried to cast them in a movie I was shooting okay, and I couldn’t do it.

 

Jaleel White  27:11

Yeah, but they’re both operating. They were both acting well below their capacity.

 

David Duchovny  27:17

Yes, material wise, but material didn’t matter.

 

Jaleel White  27:21

But it didn’t matter, yeah.

 

David Duchovny  27:22

That wasn’t anything about you as well.

 

Jaleel White  27:25

They were elevating material that was  beneath their understanding. They could have taken on much better material and just done incredible.

 

David Duchovny  27:31

And you know, for me what it is, I don’t know about Jeanette, but what I saw in Shia, and what I saw on you, and part of it was, and I guess what I want to ask is like, what was it like when you get that first laugh? Do you remember your first laugh? But also shy as a kid? Maybe he wasn’t enjoying it, but he seemed to be enjoying himself. There’s something about performers that enjoy themselves. And I saw you. You love to be out there, you know, like as a little kid, it looked like you loved to be out there and and you were having a good time. And that, in turn, makes me have a good time.

 

Jaleel White  28:10

I only love to be out there when it works.

 

David Duchovny  28:14

Well.

 

Jaleel White  28:14

Otherwise it’s my mug that’s hanging out there and it’s not, it doesn’t work.

 

David Duchovny  28:19

Yes, I was I fight hard to make it work. I was just giving. I was just presenting at the SAG Awards yesterday, and was talking to Harrison Ford, who’s in an ensemble now, and we’re saying. I was saying, Do you enjoy it? And he was like, Yeah, ensemble to me means not my fault.

 

Jaleel White  28:35

I like that. I remember my first hearty laughs episode called Big Fix. It was probably about five episodes in the first season.

 

David Duchovny  28:48

But even as a kid, before you were performing, were you a kid that liked.

 

Jaleel White  28:51

Oh yeah.

 

David Duchovny  28:51

Make your parents laugh.

 

Jaleel White  28:52

Oh yeah, you know, I was always, I’m not gonna say I was a class clown, but I was definitely a recess clown. You know, a lot of you know, lot of lot of joking on other kids. I had, I had a I had a sharp tongue. I was a little bitty dude. I was undersized, and I could, I couldn’t fight very well, so I I could talk smack about you, and I could run really fast away from you.

 

David Duchovny  29:16

Well, that’s the other thing about that’s amazing about your character, not about the character, but about you as an actor, is you had to play that kid from 12 to 21 it’s a different person. Oh yeah, and you’re playing the same guy. I mean, I’ve seen, like, the older footage, and you’re, you’re trying to, like, constrict, you know, you’re six two.

 

Jaleel White  29:40

I’m 11 to six.

 

David Duchovny  29:45

Well, you know, you’re a man and you’re playing, you’re still playing this kid, you know, or playing Urkel and I think that’s kind of an amazing thing as well, like just the pure kind of performance as a 21 year old trying. To play that character, yeah? And I wonder, like, were you panicked at every point? Oh, yeah, at any point.

 

Jaleel White  30:05

Around the ages of, uh, 15 and 16, I definitely was starting to panic a little bit, because your earnings jump. Your earnings jump so much more you want to.

 

David Duchovny  30:15

You want to continue for a few more, yeah.

 

Jaleel White  30:16

You want to continue for a few more years, because you know the difference that it’s going to make in your life, yeah, but realistically, you can feel these changes happening inside of you, and you know, they’re they’re resonating with audiences. And so the character is starting to the performances are starting to become a little more cartoonish. But I even noticed that even with a character like Kramer’s, you know, if you notice, in the early days of Seinfeld. By the time he was hitting doors.

 

David Duchovny  30:44

He also went through puberty.

 

Jaleel White  30:49

You know, so over time, you know, all of our characters tend to become caricatures of themselves.

 

David Duchovny  30:55

Yeah, did you have do you remember having discussions with the writers like we can’t how much longer can we do this? We have to adjust. We have to admit reality is happening here.

 

Jaleel White  31:06

You know reality? I have to point this out. The reality was different back then, David, you’re talking about a time when MC Hammer would do Taco Bell commercials and he would float down into the scene in billowing pants and try to sell you a taco, you know, that’s telling me.

 

David Duchovny  31:24

I’m saying couldn’t really fly.

 

Jaleel White  31:25

I’m saying Surrealism was alive and well, and we didn’t take ourselves so seriously back then in our entertainment, the, you know, the the sappy music at the to end our every episode you know that would be so loud now, you know we hear we hear hot Audience laughter. Now that sounds fake. We didn’t hear it so much back then. So I think we got away with something for a lot longer than you would ever be able to get away with any of that right now because of the times and the business model around television, quite frankly. I mean, we again, like I said, we did 24, 25 episodes, and then we had reruns in the spring. You could have a normal life, and then you came back. It’s all so different. Now, everything has to be grounded in reality, even things that are surreal.

 

David Duchovny  32:16

And how do you how do you see yourself do? Are you excited to perform in this new world as well?

 

Jaleel White  32:25

You know, I’m a game show host right now. That’s my primary job. Again, I’ve had to adopt you’re an actor completely. I’m an actor at heart, but acting has been under duress for, like, I just feel like, the last four or five years, as an industry, there are a few people who can the chance to practice it every day again. When I told you, I said, I’m a man of repetition, so, you know, I would, I relish the opportunity to get back on that bike, be in shape, you know, to memorize your words. I remember I worked with, with Spader on on Boston Legal. And, you know, this guy would run off a page and a half, like it was nothing. And he would, he would literally back the words up and bend and forward, you know, backwards and forwards, like he was backing up a car.

 

David Duchovny  33:09

Did you watch him work?

 

Jaleel White  33:11

I wanted to watch him film one of his scenes. So he didn’t know I was on the set, but I watched him. I watched him film and and I, you know, that’s where from an athletic point of view. I was like, oh, this guy’s in shape, this dude, you know, he’s got it, but you got to be in shape to do that. You do, you know, I don’t if I got hired to do a show where I had to give a two page monolog like that, you know, every single week, you know, I would have to train for that to make sure that day one on set, people knew that I was, you know, that I was for real, and the opportunity to do that, you just brought it up yourself. Given all of the the the changes in rehearsal time and the amount of time you’re given to do anything in our, in our in our business, it’s not easy.

 

David Duchovny  33:57

Take me to the moment when you wanted to pitch a reboot of the show with middle branding. And I will tell you that I when I first started auditioning, I came out to LA in like 1987 so I was already 27 years old. I started acting late. You started early, I started late, and I auditioned for full house. Stop, yeah, which character, all of them, they kept trying to bring you know they liked me. They just didn’t know where I fit.

 

Jaleel White  34:29

Right […]

 

David Duchovny  34:29

And I was desperate to get any kind of job.

 

Jaleel White  34:32

Oh, my God [..] objection is God’s protection.

 

David Duchovny  34:36

I was going to bring up that, that quote, I like that very much in your book. So I remember Miller and boy, because they, I forget. I think we’re in ABC, I don’t remember. But, you know, in Century City and there’s kind of a, kind of a theater, yeah, they were sitting there.

 

Jaleel White  34:50

Oh my gosh.

 

David Duchovny  34:51

Yeah, so I read for.

 

Jaleel White  34:52

That was when ABC Entertainment used to be a century city.

 

David Duchovny  34:54

Exactly, I got flown out to LA my first view of LA is Century City. And I’m like, oh, so this is LA, when, in fact, century cities, unlike any aspect, it looks like a, like a model New York.

 

Jaleel White  35:09

Your story is better than mine.

 

David Duchovny  35:11

And I’m just like, I remember the limousine met me at the airport, and.

 

Jaleel White  35:16

Limousine, look at this guy

 

David Duchovny  35:17

Yeah, that’s a word I use because I’d never been in one. I don’t think. No, I never been in one.

 

Jaleel White  35:22

I never had anybody send one for me to go on an audition.

 

David Duchovny  35:25

No, this was like I was testing. Because I’m from New York.

 

Jaleel White  35:28

That’s still an audition, bro.

 

David Duchovny  35:31

I know they fly me to LA so anyway, that’s I don’t really have a personal story about Miller and boy yet, but I remember them. I can see me my mind’s eye, because all your first experiences are so vivid, you know, forever. But I found that story of you pitching the reboot, which I really dug your idea, you know, if you could just tell us a little about that, I’m not asking you to throw Miller and boy out under the bus, but just, you know, whatever it is that happens.

 

Jaleel White  35:58

Well, first of all, Tom Miller is no longer with us, so there’s no bus to throw him under. You know? And I never had any falling out with Tom Miller at all. You know, he was great at what he what, what he did. He’s one of the great producers of all sitcom producers, at least of all time and times change, yeah, but I always saw the reboot as involving another kid that didn’t necessarily play Urkel Jr, that that just felt like that was a trap for another kid. Quite frankly, I’ve pointed this out, and I don’t point this out with any malice at all, but you know, the kids from from Fuller House, they don’t work anymore, you know, and yet they work for. They work for Warner Brothers, who has HBO and a very healthy arm for for that features a lot of young performers. But the fact of the matter is, those kids are considered, you know, done.

 

David Duchovny  36:51

Yeah, it’s like, it’s no longer, it’s also no longer a studio system in any way. So it’s like, you know, you do great work for a studio. It doesn’t necessarily translate into future work.

 

Jaleel White  36:59

Bingo, exactly so, you know, I thought the show should be about a kid period who goes on to a failing sitcom in in the 90s and upsets the apple cart but ends up saving the day. And the show should really be about this kid’s normal life behind the scenes, going to public school, because I went to public school the entire time I was on that show, um, and his parents, who know nothing about the business at all.

 

David Duchovny  37:28

So did you see it as a sitcom, or do you see it more as like a streaming service?

 

Jaleel White  37:32

I saw it more as a streaming service, half hour show, yeah. Um, that really tugged at your heartstrings more along the lines of the original Wonder Years, not necessarily The Wonder Years reboot, yeah, but I felt like The Wonder Years reboot even missed the opportunity to do something special for the 90s. The 90s man is this incredible canvas, like it’s our 60s now.

 

David Duchovny  37:53

Pre internet.

 

Jaleel White  37:53

Exactly, and it’s, you know, you get to, you get to see the evolution of the cell phone. You can see the evolution of the Internet. You get to see all of these things, and just use that.

 

David Duchovny  38:03

Can we skip the evolution of the Internet?

 

Jaleel White  38:07

Well, bottle, I look just use this, this nucleus of three, this mom, dad and this kid as as a journey back into the 90s during to explore a completely different time that I thought would have been a compelling show, that you could get a lot of different generations to appreciate.

 

David Duchovny  38:21

I think so too. I still think, I don’t think that’s dead in my mind.

 

Jaleel White  38:25

No, it’s not where I’m cooking. Out here, I’m actually cooking.

 

David Duchovny  38:28

Yeah, in your reboot, are you in it?

 

Jaleel White  38:32

I don’t know. I think that would take some some development. There’s a version of it where I could participate, and then there’s a version of it where I’m maybe just voiceover, and there’s a version of it also that could be more like survivor’s remorse, you know, which is LeBron James’s story on stars, where it’s all new characters, and you know what it’s inspired by. But it’s not necessarily me at all. It was never about me. It was about telling the best story for the times. That’s what I you know, even as I get older, that doesn’t get that doesn’t die in me of knowing a story that works for the times that we’re living in.

 

David Duchovny  39:38

Your identity as a writer that surfaced early on when you were doing family matters, right? It’s something that you’ve always wanted to do. It’s something that you always have done. I wonder, are you still interested in in you know, as when you were playing Urkel, you were suggesting storylines, not necessarily writing them. You’re 14 years old. Old, whatever. Yeah, but you know, you’ve written this book. I wonder how, what your experience of writing this book, growing up, Urkel taught you about writing, about the you know, every day as a writer is kind of a failure. You know, like every day you’re you’re, you smack up against the inspiration in your mind versus what dribbles out onto that page in front of you. So I wonder, you know, what you learned, what your experience writing this was, and whether it kind of invigorated you to go forward and write some more, not necessarily prose, but you know, shows.

 

Jaleel White  40:34

You know, I always had a deep desire to write, especially comedy for television, and so when I came up against an industry that, you know, that had a I was, I was not necessarily invited to participate in that I was really thrown for a loop, to be quite honest. And the book definitely has reinvigorated my desire to write, but I also have a separate respect for what it is to be a literary author, you know, it’s, I actually think it’s far more challenging than what it is to write for television writing for television, almost.

 

David Duchovny  41:13

I would have to agree, because I want to say you’re right.

 

Jaleel White  41:17

Okay, so I’m like, right, listen when you when you set out to write a book, book, book. You know the deliverables, the the you know, the toilet over.

 

David Duchovny  41:28

You can’t have a jail white come in and save you.

 

Jaleel White  41:30

Yeah, no, you on your own. You’re really on your own island. I definitely had a lot of help, but I, but I always want people to know that. No, I wrote this damn book and.

 

David Duchovny  41:43

You had help shaping it.

 

Jaleel White  41:44

Yeah, exactly. And I wouldn’t even advise anybody write a book now without having ghost writers and people in the background to say, you might want to change this. This is coming off this way. You know, it’s, we just live in a different world.

 

David Duchovny  41:55

Now, was there anything that you wanted to include that you were advised not to or there’s a lot of different stuff. Do you want to do you want to, do you want to tell us what those two?

 

Jaleel White  42:05

I mean, I’ll give you one. I, you know, I, I talked about corporal punishment. And, you know, I come from a generation where you got, you mean, like spanking, yeah, you got where you got paddled, you got whipped. You got, you know, you got beat and and I didn’t, you know, we all felt collectively, that if I talked about, you know, times where my mom exacted corporal punishment, that it would come off as child abuse.

 

David Duchovny  42:34

Well, isn’t this, but isn’t this what we run into constantly, all the time now, because cultural norms change, right, not just parenting, but also racial, sexual, religious, exactly, you know, and we have to be able to contextualize the behavior yeah, without condoning or condemning, right?

 

Jaleel White  42:57

I even write about, you know, I wrote about, you know, Mr. C in my book a lot and there’s certain people that still, even though I devoted several pages to put it in the proper putting my interaction with him in the proper historical context, that are still be like.

 

David Duchovny  43:14

You said. Mr. C, I thought you meant cocaine.

 

Jaleel White  43:16

Obviously, because I’ll tell you, you’re a fool, yo. You know it’s gonna be a clip down.

 

David Duchovny  43:25

Like, Mr. C, he’s like, I never heard him.

 

Jaleel White  43:28

Okay, we’re gonna say guys, but some people still felt like I was celebrating him too much. And it’s just like, nah, man. Like, I don’t think you really understand what a loss that was for us, culturally, as black people and as people who just toil in comedy, not even black, what that man you know did for it, and what a letdown it was for us to see his legacy come down like, like freaking a statue of, I can’t even say what kind of statue I understand. You understand it’s like a fallen statue of say, you this, this was a monument this dude. And so I would always love for the show, if I got a chance to do the show, and I think we will. I could fail it. There’s some good things happening around the corner that that we’re able to depict history with respect, but at the same time create conversation between people as they’re, you know, when they’re as they’re watching, hey, this is the way it was then, and this is the way it’ll never be.

 

David Duchovny  44:25

Question becomes, do we throw out the entire existence of the person and the legacy of our art, yeah, and comedy, or do we try and, you know, in an adult way, see the difference between the person and the art.

 

Jaleel White  44:40

I think it all goes out, man.

 

David Duchovny  44:42

And it does seem, I think we have been in that place. I’m not. I think we might be moving out of that place.

 

Jaleel White  44:49

I mean, I’d like to see us move out of it, only just because I let God do the judging, but, but I that that might be wishful thinking, man, it’s like, I think it, it all goes out.

 

David Duchovny  44:58

You say, you let God do the judging. I would not say that for myself, but I try to separate, you know, the person from the work as much as I can. I

 

Jaleel White  45:08

do too.

 

David Duchovny  45:09

And you know, yes, there’s crimes, there’s horrible shit that can happen and be perpetrated by certain people. But, you know, you look back at some of the great art that we have history, and they weren’t saints and they but.

 

Jaleel White  45:30

It wasn’t covered the same way. No, it wasn’t. And so because it wasn’t covered the same way, it’s strange. It’s weird. It was like, I actually went to see one of my favorite art exhibits I’ve ever seen, was in San Francisco, and it was a combination of Walt Disney and Salvador Dali. I had no idea that they were great friends. And, I mean, and Salvador Dali art is just captivating, like you can just, you just stare at it, because you’re constantly Fantasia, maybe, right, okay. And so they were, they were great friends, and then after having seen that art exhibit, I did my own research on on Salvador Dali and this dude, this was a monster.

 

David Duchovny  46:11

Yeah.

 

Jaleel White  46:12

I’m not even gonna describe what this dude’s afflictions were, but we didn’t live in internet times where you can learn of Salvador’s afflictions in 30 seconds. Around the world, everybody hitting their phone.

 

David Duchovny  46:27

Well, I, you know, if I could just boil that down to please do to where we are at. You know, in this podcast, which is as well, it’s like we can’t it’s harder to get beyond your failures now, because they’re curated forever on this thing in this cloud. You know, it’s like you used to be able to forget some stuff, yep, some stuff used to go away. And I’m not talking about crimes, I’m just talking about human failure, whatever, bad judgment, mistakes, flops. And you know, part of what I like to talk about on this podcast is, you know, forgiveness and forgetting and kind of accepting of those moments when we fail. You know, as long as they’re not like pathological and we don’t continue to do the same thing. And it’s just one of the things I like to go through on this. And I think that your personal journey, is kind of exemplary in that way, not as a failure, but as such a huge success. God, thanks that you, that you continue to have to deal with, you know, in both in good and bad ways. And I guess the the final place that I want to go. I do want to get to purple Urkel. But you say something at the beginning of the book where you know, in your dedication, you say, it’s for your daughter, who’s the only one who really knows who I am, which is interesting to me, in a book where you’re trying to tell us who you are, and you say, and what would you say that is, what does your daughter know about you, that that we never will?

 

Jaleel White  48:06

My daughter just knows me in a nuanced way, and that’s it’s a it’s a special kind of love man and I know her equally in the same way. I my favorite moment with my daughter, at least me realizing her capacity to observe and absorb on  her own, having nothing to do with me, is I went to our open house in the second grade, and all the kids had to write about someone that they admired. And so I’m reading, you know, my daughter’s not there, but all the parents are looking for their kids, you know, essay that they’ve written in second grade. It’s Kobe Bryant, and it’s, you know, all these actors and, you know, famous people, and my daughter chose to write about me and and I literally had to step out of the classroom because I started crying almost, yeah, where she said, I love it when my dad takes pictures with other people, when they interrupt us. And I know he doesn’t want to do it, but he’s nice enough, and he still does it, yeah, and for her to observe my body language and my facial expressions at that level, it’s seven years old. She knows you like I said, I just found it to be very, very touching.

 

David Duchovny  49:13

Yeah, I had a moment I forget how old my daughter was, very young, like three or four, maybe little older, but she said, I want to, when I get older, I want to marry a lion, a monkey, or my dad. And I was like, that’s the that’s the nicest thing. I’ll never forget it, you know, because I’m like, I know how much lions and monkeys mentor, alright, so just like you’re gonna give me that purple circle, hey.

 

Jaleel White  49:44

Bet you got it back. All right, I got these noodles for you. Ben, okay, I got this noodle for you that is a rotini pasta filter.

 

David Duchovny  49:51

We’re not gonna be like Joe Rogan and actually light up, but this smells delicious.

 

Jaleel White  49:56

You gotta love it.

 

David Duchovny  49:56

It’s pretty damn fat. I gotta say you’re gonna love. We call them the noodle noodle. That’s not a noodle. It’s got a fatter than a noodle.

 

Jaleel White  50:05

It’s got a rotini pasta filter. That’s the best.

 

David Duchovny  50:08

Really?

 

Jaleel White  50:08

Yeah, no, it’s just just pasta.

 

David Duchovny  50:10

That’s clever.

 

Jaleel White  50:11

That’s just pasta.

 

David Duchovny  50:12

And purple Urkel. Just it makes you happy, just to say it.

 

Jaleel White  50:15

You know, the streets came up with that name, yeah, I didn’t come up with that. Are you kidding me? I take no responsibility for the creation of them. The name of my company is, it’s purple, and there’s, you know, there’s a whole ideology behind that, yeah. But for me, I just love it, because anytime I hand somebody the best joint they’ve ever had, the look on their face is just absolutely amazing. And the thank you I get is out of this world.

 

David Duchovny  50:37

Well, it’s just a lesson that you have to hang on, you know, because if you don’t hang on, you don’t live long enough or stay awake long enough to see purple Oracle come into being, you know, like, just to see the you know, your legacy is multifaceted, right? Like, I started by saying, like, you know, just look at the work. The work stands on its own. Like, but people, they’re not going to do it because they’re going to see it’s a sitcom. They’re not. But I’m telling you, man to man, actor to actor, I see it, but you know, to have to have a joint named after you. That’s I don’t think you saw that when you were 20. I didn’t see that, bro. So there you go. There’s many surprises to come, exactly. So thank you so much for coming by today. I’m happy that we got to do it amidst all the chaos on the freeways. And I enjoyed the book a lot. I enjoy you. I think you’re a terrific physical comedian. I hope you get to do more of that.

 

Jaleel White  51:30

Nah, thank you, man. I really appreciate that. I had a I had a funny feeling that I would enjoy talking to you. Obviously, you’re pretty damn iconic you so.

 

David Duchovny  51:37

Thank you.

 

Jaleel White  51:38

And.

 

David Duchovny  51:39

She’s going into my pocket.

 

Jaleel White  51:40

Oh, I’m telling you, doug, you’re about to have a good time.

 

David Duchovny  51:45

We’re good thank you.

 

David Duchovny  52:02

Thinking about the really good conversation I had with Jaleel White yesterday, and just some thoughts about that. You know, in his book, I was struck by the fact that he does express some regrets, some bitterness over the way things were handled by mostly agents, managers, sometimes executives in position of power, although he does say rejection is God’s protection, I like that a lot. You know, he does shuttle back and forth a little bit between the forgiveness and the kind of his willingness to follow kind of God’s plan I would imagine, through failure and success or whatever comes his way. But also, you know, kind of jitterbugs back and forth between forgiveness and then some anger, some regret, even though he realizes and and writes that those are wasted kinds of emotions or feelings. And the last thing I’d like to say about Urkel is he’s such a great kind of emblem for a Fail Better podcast, because his catchphrase, you know, did I do that? That thing? It’s really the best fucking response to failure that one could ever have. And I know I’m getting into the heady, critical space of that Jaleel and I were trying to mitigate against yesterday, but it occurred to me driving home, Jesus, I wish I could have said that to Jaleel, like if I could teach resilience, if I could teach a formula for resilience to failure? Did I do that as a response to any kind of fuck up or failure is pretty damn good way to take ownership and move on and laugh at the same time so yeah, did I do that?

 

CREDITS  54:07

Thanks so much for listening to Fail Better. If you haven’t yet, now is a great time to subscribe to Lemonada Premium. You’ll get bonus content, like my thoughts on conversations with guests including Alec Baldwin and Rob Lowe. Just hit the subscribe button on Apple podcasts, or for all other podcast apps, head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe. That’s lemonadapremium.com.  Fail Better is a production of Lemonada Media in coordination with King Baby.  It is produced by Kegan Zema, Aria Bracci, and Dani Matias. Our engineer is Brian Castillo.  Our SVP of weekly is Steve Nelson. Our VP of new content is Rachel Neel.  Special thanks to Carl Ackerman, Tom Karpinski and Brad Davidson, the show’s executive produced by Stephanie Wittels Wachs, Jessica Cordova Kramer and me, David Duchovny.  The music is also by me and my band. Lovely Colin Lee. Pat McCusker, Mitch Stewart, Davis Rowan and Sebastian […].  You can find us online at @LemonadaMedia and you can find me @DavidDuchovny.  Follow Fail Better wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon music with your Prime membership.