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What happens when we give someone a second chance? For Glenn Dahl, it led to Dave’s Killer Bread, a family business success story that not only revolutionized bread, but also changed how companies think about second chance hiring. Glenn, the former CEO, opens up about taking a chance on his brother Dave after his release from prison, and continuing to take a groundbreaking approach to hiring people with criminal records.

To learn more about second chance hiring, you can check out The Responsible Business Initiative for Justice at rbij.org, as well as the U.S. Chamber of Commerce’s website for resources on the benefits ​​of hiring formerly incarcerated individuals and an employer guide to tax credits and programs.

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Transcript

SPEAKERS

Ana Zamora, Glenn Dahl

Ana Zamora  01:39

Welcome to When It Clicked, I’m your host, Ana Zamora, founder and CEO of the Just Trust, an organization fighting for a criminal justice system that works better for all of us. In this series, I’m talking to people from all walks of life to ask why they’re working to transform our justice system. We may come to this issue for very different reasons, but ultimately, we all want the same thing, to create safety and opportunities for all. Some of my guests have made mistakes in the past and have been to prison. Some have a family member who has been to prison like I do, and others are driven by human rights, racial justice, faith or economics, whatever their reason, all are welcome at this table today, we’re talking to Glenn Dahl, the co founder and former CEO of Dave’s Killer Bread. I’m sure you’ve tasted it, or at least seen the iconic image of Glenn’s brother, Dave on the front playing his guitar, while Dave had a journey from incarceration to innovation becoming the face of the brand. Glenn was the heart, the steady force behind the business of their family bakery. I really relate to Glenn as someone who also has a brother that’s been through the criminal justice system. I know just how profound that experience is on a family. That’s why I’m so excited to bring you this conversation today with Glenn about second chances, transformation and really good bread.

 

Ana Zamora  03:25

So, Glenn, for our listeners who don’t know your story, who is Glen Dahl?

 

Glenn Dahl  03:32

Okay, well, I guess the best way to explain me is I’m a second generation Baker. I grew up in a bakery started when I was nine years old, for 10 cents an hour. Ended up buying my family business, which was then called Nature bake. And then my brother, Dave had been in and out of the business, helping me over the years, in and out of trouble, giving him another chance, he’d come back, and he would not do well, and then he’d be gone. But through all that time, it was obvious he was a talented, inventive Baker, and he had a lot to offer, as far as his imagination and the long story short is the day’s Killer Bread story is we became wildly successful.

 

Ana Zamora  04:24

He sure did. I think I had a piece of Dave’s killer bread toast for breakfast this morning. It’s one of my favorites. So thank you so much for sharing a little bit about your story. We’re going to get a lot more detailed. And for right now, I want to break it down a little bit, and I want you to take me back to your early years growing up in your family of bakers. How do you feel like that kind of shaped how you thought about issues related to safety, justice, crime, people who commit crime.

 

Glenn Dahl  04:59

When I was young. People who committed crime went to prison and they deserved it. It was pretty black and white. There was no nuance, like, maybe this person shouldn’t have been been given that much time, or maybe this person shouldn’t have gone to prison at all. None of that was in my mind. I was brought up as you do the crime, you’re going to do the time and you deserve it.

 

Ana Zamora  05:21

That’s right. I mean, I was raised the same way. I’d love to hear a little bit about your relationship with Dave during your childhood. At what point did you kind of see him take a different path than than you were and and start, you know, a path of drugs and crime.

 

Glenn Dahl  05:39

We actually lived together when he was about 17. He was having a lot of trouble, and I’m afraid that I wasn’t a great influence at that point. You know, I was eight years older and doing my share of party, and I was never heavy duty drug user or anything, but I was, you know, I like to party, and so I think between the people who are around me and everything, I think he got his first introduction into that kind of lifestyle. He, I think he, he has always been troubled. I don’t even know how to put it, but his life has always been difficult for him. When he was young, he would sit in a rocking chair and just rock, rock rock rock rock like crazy. He had, he had the the demons he needed to get out. And when he discovered drugs, he thought he had discovered the the treatment for the demons, and, yeah, it was a shame to see that happen.

 

Ana Zamora  06:45

Everything you’re saying resonates so much with me and my own experience with my family and my older brother, so I really deeply resonate with everything you’re saying. Okay, I’d love to go back now to 2004 when I understand Dave was released from prison, what was going through your mind when you found out that he was going to be released? And can you take me back to that moment when you picked him up from prison?

 

Glenn Dahl  07:14

Yes, I remember it very well. It was very late, 2004 actually, just after Christmas, if I remember, right? And so I picked him up downtown, and the first thing he wanted to do was go to Burger King. So we went to Burger King. And the other thing that I noticed, which I have been in, I’ve been doing a lot of work with people, returning individuals, and notice that the overload, the overload of you in this very regimented prison lifestyle, and when you get out, the whole world is banging around you. We don’t even notice it, but they overwhelming, total overwhelming, yes, so I was a little worried about him at that point, you know that that overwhelming thing would send him back to the drugs, but he didn’t get back into drugs. And thank goodness. And we ended up having a great New Year’s, bringing the family together from all over the place. Everybody came and was, you know, celebrated the fact that Dave was out, and that was started a really good thing in the family. My dad was no longer with us, but my mom was just, you know, over the moon to get her son back.

 

Ana Zamora  08:35

Oh, that sounds like a wonderful moment. And then I also understand that at some point, you decided you wanted to bring Dave back into the family business, after 15 or so years of him being away. What was that conversation like with him? How did that go?

 

Glenn Dahl  08:57

Well, first of all, I asked him if he wanted to, and unbeknownst to me at that time, he had actually been finding everything he could, trade magazines, whatever that he could to read about the industry. And so he had already been hoping that he could come back to the family business, and I was so I was tickled. You know, to have my brother back was a dream. He was arguably, actually not that, arguably, the most talented Baker of The bunch of us, so I was happy to have him back that way. And I was also happy to have my brother back. We had been pretty close before things went south. Yeah, so it was it was joyful and was scary.

 

Ana Zamora  09:44

Yeah, I know what feeling you’re talking about. You know, when you see your loved one and you have a lot of hope, you see them making good decisions, and you’re excited and you’re joyful, but there’s always that feeling in the back of your head that says is the. Going to last, and I know that that anxiety very well.

 

Ana Zamora  10:27

Glenn, in previous interviews that I’ve heard with Dave, he has really credited you with trusting him and giving him enough free rein to really innovate in this new emerging business. Can you share how Dave’s Killer Bread got started, and what your role was in that, and what his role was in that?

 

Glenn Dahl  11:50

He made a bread one night. And you may have heard this story. He was making the bread overnight and then leaving it out for people to try in the morning. And he said, try this bread. It’s killer and so the people tried the bread. And then from there on, everything that Dave met, there’s Dave’s Killer Bread. It’s his killer. It’s his Killer Bread, not Dave’s Killer Bread. Is there’s Dave’s Killer Bread, yeah. And so we got it kind of stuck, obviously. And so we went to our people, we were using that at that point for publicity, and we said, hey, we’re thinking about calling it Dave’s Killer Bread, because it was originally just gonna be Dave’s bread. So anyway, the publicity people said, no, no, what a terrible, terrible idea. You can’t have an ex felon called his bread killer and put it out on the market. Nobody’s going to buy that. They’re going to be freaked out as we were going across a bridge. I remember this moment very, very well. My son was sitting in the back, and he was a big part of it. He was a co founder, and Dave was sitting in a passenger seat by me, and almost all at once, we kind of looked at each other, went, F those guys. We’re going to do what we want to do. And so we fired them. We didn’t hire another agency. We did everything in house.

 

Ana Zamora  13:23

Wow, that was probably a very smart decision, given how extremely successful the brand has been. Thank you for sharing that you’ve touched on Second Chance hiring a little bit, but I want to, I want to talk a little bit more about that. I’d love to get into how you did that for Dave’s Killer Bread.

 

Glenn Dahl  13:44

So that is one of the reasons why we were so successful, is we brought people in, and we gave them a job, working beside anyone else with dignity. We treated them the same way. They weren’t like second class citizens, and with time, they started being managers. By the time that I left the bakery, President was a formerly incarcerated individual, and he was doing a great job too. I mean, he and we had lots of other management people, lots of people in there who were doing these fabulous jobs who had worked up from nowhere to get to that point.

 

Ana Zamora  14:26

What about if you were talking to a business owner that doesn’t currently hire formerly incarcerated individuals and is really hesitant to do so? What would you say are the rewards of doing that?

 

Glenn Dahl  14:43

Oh, the rewards are very plain. You will get very loyal employees. The loyalty factor on the re entry people was very high. You felt closer and you wanted more. Or someone who’s come out and you you felt like they were your own little brother or your you know something, there was something special about them, so when they left, it was a bigger disappointment than just some guy off the street.

 

Ana Zamora  15:14

Can you tell me a story or share an anecdote of someone that worked at the company that really sticks with you, a really rewarding story of somebody who had been to prison that came to work at Dave’s Killer Bread.

 

Glenn Dahl  15:30

There’s a lot of them, but there’s this one particular individual. He came at Dave’s recommendation. Dave knew him on the inside, and when he came, he had, I hope this isn’t a bad thing to say, but he had murder eyes, you know, he would scare you, and he actually was a convicted murderer. Let’s just say, within a few months, his eyes brightened up, and he he he turned out to be the biggest sweetheart that you would ever want to meet, and helpful. He would help anybody in any situation you need to move this weekend, I’ll be there. You know that kind of guy, and he has gone on to have an extraordinarily successful life. He stayed with us for a few years, but he went on, and he comes into town once in a while. We always have to meet on. He’s just the most fabulous person. And he was the kind of guy you know. When you first met him, you crossed the street, so you didn’t have to be close to him. He was that guy.

 

Ana Zamora  16:38

How much do you think that transformation that he has had and and the success that he has found, how much do you think of that is attributed to his experience at Dave’s Killer Bread and specifically you all being willing to hire him?

 

Glenn Dahl  16:55

You know, I’ve spent put a little extra effort in getting to know him, which I think is very important too. Don’t just hire people, throw them out there and train them whatever, and then just expect them to do well, it’s like with any employee, to be perfectly honest. Well, exactly I was just going to say that, go out and see how they’re doing. You know, shake their hand once in a while, thank them for the work they’re doing. Ask them their opinion about things that are going on. People really respect that and then follow through on it, if it makes sense.

 

Ana Zamora  17:30

Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, people who have been to prison are people at the end of the day. And you know, as an employer, you know, I know that the best way to ensure that my team is working. You know, their best is to get to know them a little bit and check in with them every once in a while. That’s the same for people have been to prison, the same for people who haven’t been to prison. So I’d love to get into some reflection questions. You know, I imagine, I can only imagine that a family business is a lot to navigate, and these days you’re on the other side of that, you’re retired. I understand. So now that you and Dave are not working together anymore, I’d really love if you could share, you know, how has your relationship evolved? What? What is it like today? You and Dave?

 

Glenn Dahl  18:25

Well, our relationship throughout the business part was pretty rocky. We went back and forth. You know? There was a lot of hard times, yeah, and there’s been a lot of good times. It’s never been better than it is now. The two of us have kind of been able to put aside anything without the business being in the way, and try to understand each other good and as far as a family business goes. And if you want reflection, i i miss I miss the people. I miss the family business when it was smaller, before we before we got way big. I mean, big was nice, but it before it went crazy and we got investors and all that stuff. I miss that part of it, because I could walk the floor. I knew most of the people out there, and I was very proud of what we had done. I still have, but it was so much easier to just enjoy being in business, enjoy fact that we were making this great product, and everybody loved it.

 

Ana Zamora  19:42

Everybody loves it.

 

Glenn Dahl  19:44

Yeah, so, yeah, I do miss that.

 

Ana Zamora  19:59

Okay, I want to hear a little bit more about retirement life. I know it sounds like you’re missing the the day to day on the floor of running the business, but I also know that since you’ve retired from the company, that you have a couple of things that you’re working on. Can you tell us a little bit about what projects or initiatives that you’re focused on right now?

 

Glenn Dahl  21:12

I spent a lot of time in the prison since I retired, actually a little before I retired, maybe too with several different organizations. The ones that I’m working with right now are a place called southeast works, which we do a lot of re entry work. If you’re from Portland, you may have heard of them. We do a lot of employment work for marginalized people. We have in the past, done a lot of training, and we continue to do training, although the money for that is kind of dried up right now. But I’m also treasurer for in the inside Alliance. We go in the prisons. We do this elsewhere, and we help people understand that they’re in control of their own lives, and that thoughts are just thoughts, and that the past and all the other nasty things that have gone on in your life are there, but you don’t. They don’t have to control you, your crazy brother, your crazy mother, the crazy upbringing you have, those things don’t have to control you. And we give training and group session to help people realize that they are in charge of their own lives.

 

Ana Zamora  22:28

Well, thank you for that. Okay, my final question related to that is, what final message would you like to leave with our listeners about the importance of giving folks second chances and the potential for transformation.

 

Glenn Dahl  22:42

Why it’s important is a relatively simple part of that question, and that is, if we don’t change the way we punish and incarcerate without any hope, or very little hope, of rehabilitation. But if we treat people with the people who earn it, we treat them with dignity, they should be be given the opportunity to find ways to change their life instead of just being housed. If we don’t do that, it’s just going to get worse and worse. And we’ve seen that. It’s proved every day.

 

Ana Zamora  23:24

Every day, well, I am in agreement with you 100% on that one. Glenn, thank you so much for this conversation and for all the work that you have done, for sharing it today, and all of the good work I know you’re going to continue to do. And next time I’m in Portland, I might, I might give you a call. Maybe we can get a cup of coffee.

 

Glenn Dahl  23:44

That’d be wonderful. I would enjoy that a lot.

 

Ana Zamora  23:56

Thanks for listening to When It Clicked. To learn more about Second Chance hiring, you can check out the responsible business initiative for justice at RBIJ.org. You can also go to the US Chamber of Commerce’s website, which has tons of resources like the benefits of hiring formerly incarcerated individuals and an employer guide to tax credits and programs. We’ve linked to both of these in the show notes.

 

CREDITS  24:21

When It Clicked is a production of Lemonada Media and the Just Trust. I’m your host, Ana Zamora, Hannah Boomershine is our producer. Muna Danish is our senior producer. Ivan Kuraev is our audio engineer, with additional engineering support from Johnny Vince Evans. Music is from APM. Jackie Danziger is our VP of partnerships and production. Executive Producers are Jessica Cordova Kramer and Stephanie Wittels Wachs.  Follow When It Clicked wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon music with your Prime membership.