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This week, we’re getting serious. Serious about the price of the prison industrial complex. Fred Bell from The Debt Collective, the nation’s first debtors union, joins X Mayo to unpack each of their experiences with carceral debt. Fred talks about the financial realities of our prison system, the shame surrounding the cycle of debt, and how the Debt Collective is organizing to abolish it all.

This series was created in partnership with Flourish Ventures, an early-stage global investment firm backing mission-driven entrepreneurs and industry influencers working toward a fair finance system for all. Learn more at flourishventures.com.

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You can find Fred on Instagram @fred.bjr and check out the Debt Collective on Twitter @strikedebt, on Instagram @thedebtcollective, and on their website https://debtcollective.org/

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To follow along with a transcript, go to lemonadamedia.com/show/ shortly after the air date.

Transcript

SPEAKERS

X Mayo, Fred Bell, Maddie

Maddie  00:01

My name is Maddie, and I’m part of the debt collective, the nation’s first union of debtors. I heard of debt collective. You erased 10 million of student loan debt for Morehouse College students last year. We don’t just fight for full debt cancelation, we also fight for universal reparative and public goods. Every economic issue facing Americans as a whole, whether it is homelessness, unemployment, the student debt crisis, you name it, it’s all made exponentially worse for black Americans in particular because of the economic system we live under, racial capitalism.

 

X Mayo  02:04

Welcome back to The Dough. It’s your girl, X Mayo, and today we’re getting serious, serious about how fucked up the criminal legal system is in this country and just how much it costs the incarcerated and their loved ones. Picture this, you just finished serving your time, and the last time you were out in the world, you had a $60 pager that you worked your ass off for. But on your first day out, your family members introduced you to a $1,000 smartphone with some shit called widgets. Not only do you have to learn what inflation did to the cost of things like groceries, you also realize you need to find a job that pays really well, because you got to pay for your bed at the halfway house, pay for your ankle monitor for the next 60 days, pay for transportation from the prison insurance leftover court fees and your fines. It’s a lie, and what about your future? Nobody told you that these apartments want you making 40 times the rent these days you want to work, but who is hiring and why is reentry so damn expensive? Leaving prison in extreme debt is the reality for many formerly incarcerated people, making it harder for them to acclimate to the new world they have to live in. Many of us have been affected by the prison system, whether you have been inside or had a loved one you had to support through this. Even I had my own experience with my brother getting caught up in the system, and it costs a lot for everyone involved, financially, physically and emotionally. Joining us here at The Dought is Fred Bell from the debt collective, the nation’s first debtors union, which organizes around debt of all kinds. Fred has over a decade of community organizing under his belt, and today he is going to talk about carceral debt and how to support a loved one who fell victim to the system. Hi, Fred, welcome to The Dough.

 

Fred Bell  04:04

Thank you so much for having me.

 

X Mayo  04:06

Oh, my God, Fred, why is your twist out putting me to shame? Wow okay, you went to the clearly, we went to the August Alcina School of twist outs, absolutely, yes. It looks beautiful. Okay, so we start every episode getting a little tea, okay? We ask guests, where the hell did they spend their money this week? So, Fred, what outrageous thing did you buy this week?

 

Fred Bell  04:32

Ooh, this is very easy, because I just got back from Coachella and spent way too much money. That festival is very expensive, but worth every penny. Actually went with about 40 black folks. So it was an amazing.

 

X Mayo  04:45

Wait, why was I not in the group chat? Wait, Fred, why was I in the group chat?

 

Fred Bell  04:48

Oh, sorry invite was sent email. My bad, if you didn’t get it, then.

 

X Mayo  04:53

Okay, copy that was like, baby, I passed the vibe check. I’m like, what? Like your girl has her own money. I. Just need. I just want to be with the vibes. I want to be with my people.

 

Fred Bell  05:02

We can too. I got you.

 

X Mayo  05:03

Okay, cool, okay, so what is the name of this group who was this dope ass Group of 40 black people? I love mobbing.

 

Fred Bell  05:10

It’s just a group of folks that like love festivals and house music, r&b music, rap music, just a collective group of folks who enjoy music in all forms. And so we just thought it would be better to do it all together, and, you know, not deal with crowds of folks that don’t look like us, and kind of create our own vibes so.

 

X Mayo  05:28

Yeah, Fred, okay, so what’s the name of the group? How do I get jumped in? What do I have to pay dues? How does this work?

 

Fred Bell  05:36

There’s no formal group right now, but black at Coachella is probably a good hashtag to see a lot of the folks that attended with us, so check that out yeah.

 

X Mayo  05:44

No, yeah, I’m gonna be in the DMS. Listen, I’m from LA. Gangs are my prerogative. This is what I know. So I’m like, Listen, what colors do we wear? What time I need to show up? Do I need to, you know, take notes at the next meeting? What I did? Because my people in swarming, that’s my vibe.

 

Fred Bell  06:03

Absolutely.

 

X Mayo  06:03

For sure.

 

Fred Bell  06:04

Every year we have a theme, and this year was like enchanted for us, so it was just amazing. It’s a vibe.

 

X Mayo  06:12

Okay, anyone listening, you can’t come, but I can. Okay, so Fred spends so much money. I am so excited to talk to you today, because you are representing the debt collective.

 

Fred Bell  06:23

Yes.

 

X Mayo  06:23

And I’ve heard you say that you are the country’s first debtors Union. But what does that mean? Like, you know, that was that was so confusing to me. I was like, wait, what and why? Y’all the first but obviously you’re black, and what do y’all do?

 

Fred Bell  06:36

Yeah, so we mean that we’re the first debtors union. We mean that there hasn’t really been an organization that has really organized around all debt types in this country before, debt collective and so, you know, we are creating a union of debtors across all debt types, whether that’s carceral debt, that’s student debt, whether that’s housing debt, whether that’s credit card debt, we are really trying to build this broad based union that covers all these different campaigns, because really, all these debt types come from this common 1% you know, the rich folks that are really profiting off of our debt. And so the target is the same, the enemy is the same. So we just need to understand that the system is really organized against us and is using debt to entrap us further into more and more debt.

 

X Mayo  07:30

And so how does the debtors union operate like? What do y’all do specifically?

 

Fred Bell  07:36

So there’s a couple of things that debtors unions do. One of the big things that we are striving to do is unburden the shame of debt. And so basically, it’s hard to really, it’s hard to organize around debt, because a lot of folks don’t want to claim their debt. Saying that you have debt means that you broke. You know, I mean, hey guys, I have debt like I know, for me, as a black person, if I’m going to space sometimes and I’m like, coming forth and talking about my story with debt, people going to be like, dang, like you broke, like you ain’t got no money, and so sometimes, you know, we have to create these forums in order for folks to come forward and talk about their debt open and honestly, so other folks can understand, hey, I’m not alone. I also have student debt. I also have carceral debt. I also have a debt that I owe to my landlord. And so that’s one of the first things we’re doing. Is really creating these safe and warm spaces for folks to tell their own individual stories.

 

X Mayo  08:35

And then are you guys helping people clear their debt, get educated about the debt? Is that other characteristics of the group.

 

Fred Bell  08:41

We wanted to reach out to debtors and help them. Obviously, because you can’t just, you know, organize around debt. You have to help folks survive, you know, through some kind of mutual aid. And so our rolling Jubilee campaign basically consists of trying to go in the secondary market. Basically, when you have debt and it’s not paid. There are organizations that are able to get accreditations to buy that debt on the second hand market and sell that so basically, if you know you owe $1,000 to your university and they don’t collect on it, they’re going to sell that debt to a second party, but they’re going to buy that debt for $10 and so, but they’re gonna take that $1,000 account and call folks or call you and say, Hey, you owe us $1,000 and so basically, they’re making money off of the debt that was never going to get paid back, and so.

 

X Mayo  09:32

Wait a damn minute, Fred. Are you telling me that they like buying and selling like they did in 18 oh, what?

 

Fred Bell  09:44

Collection agencies? Yep, that’s what they do.

 

X Mayo  09:46

Collection slavery agencies, excuse me, what are you doing?

 

Fred Bell  09:51

Yes.

 

X Mayo  09:51

Oh, my God, you know. You know, white supremacy and patriarchy is baked in everything. But when I found out that it was in maps, I was like, Oh, wow, I didn’t know that because my brother’s wife is a cartographer. I think that’s how you say it. And she was telling me how Africa is actually the biggest continent, but when you look at it, it is like, so small, or like, equivalent that to, like, a North America, and it’s actually top dog. It’s the baddest bitch, but we don’t see that on the map. And I was like, wait, racism is in maps. When you say it’s baked in every fabric I’m just like, are glasses race like, should I know.

 

Fred Bell  10:27

Highways are racist. Highways and freeways are racist. They are literally constructed through historically black neighborhoods. And if you notice public transportation, even if there’s trains and there’s subways, you notice how, always in the black communities, those subways are above ground, but when they’re in white communities, they’re underground and hardly seen.

 

X Mayo  10:48

And more efficient.

 

Fred Bell  10:49

And more efficient.

 

X Mayo  10:50

Always have the AC cooking, you know, all with nicer seats and everything like that. Y’all, we’re gonna take a quick break here. When we get back, we’re gonna hear from Fred about his first experience with debt and how the carceral system moves like a business because it is.

 

Maddie  11:15

I want to back up a little bit and talk about your dad and some of your first experiences with debt, and that was with the carceral system, right?

 

Fred Bell  13:42

Yes, so my father from New Orleans, Louisiana, both sides of my family are and, you know, just a little background, Louisiana has history of, you know, being the most punitive criminal legal system and prison system in the country. And so, you know, in 1844 they made one of the first private prisons and turned it into a factory, and so just.

 

X Mayo  14:07

No, I saw the documentary about it, even as of recent it operates like a plantation, for sure.

 

Fred Bell  14:11

Absolutely, and so given that context, kind of informs my dad’s story and having run ins with the law most of his adult life, but you know, at a certain point, you know, he was able to get into the military. Then had me married my my mother, and we moved to Seattle, but a little bit after that, ended up exiting the military and moving back to New Orleans, and that’s kind of where the trouble started, and so him being incarcerated in 2015 really opened my eyes to how this criminal legal system is meant to indebt you and just keep you bound within the system for as long as it can. So I think this was six years my dad was incarcerated, and just dealing with all of the fines and fees, having to pay for parole, having to pay for probation, having to pay for transportation to get to court.

 

X Mayo  15:14

To get the felony expunged.

 

Fred Bell  15:16

Yes, so all the contact you have with legal system, we consider carceral debt, and so Louisiana has some of the most punitive fines and fees in the country. And you know, my dad was, you know, first hand experience with a lot of this. And so, you know, once he exited the system, we had to, you know, crowdsource some funds in order to pay for a lot of the fees, he had to pay $100 a month for his parole. We had to make sure that he had transportation to and from the courthouse. But, you know, he lived about 30 minutes away in a veteran’s home, and so if he didn’t have immediate family in the area, he could have missed the court date, and he would have been thrown back into prison. He could have had even more fines and fees on his record. And so you can see how all of this debt can easily compound if you don’t have a support system or if you don’t have money. So those some of the things that my, you know, Dad, experienced. And you know, we can talk about a little bit more, but the money that has been transferred and has been, you know, sent to my dad in order to help pay for some of these things, you know, we call that Shadow Debt. It’s money that’s, you know, shared within the community, shared between your brother and your mom, your dad, but it crosses debt types, you know, maybe I swept my credit card in order to pay for his Ubers to the courthouse, and now I have that credit court card debt, and that debt is burdening me. And so this is something, a term that we’ve created to really try and quantify and try to name these debts that is not easily categorized, but is so prevalent in a lot of our lives.

 

X Mayo  17:01

Oh, my God, thank you so much for saying that I didn’t know. I never heard a Shadow Debt, and obviously, I’m born and raised in South Central so very much. So have been affected by the prison system. My brother was in jail most of my life for a crime he did not commit. But you know the rules of the streets, it’s like, you don’t snitch, right? So he just wasn’t going to do that. But my brother went in as a law abiding citizen, and he came out a gang member, and he had to do that for protection, right? So I feel like that whole system, I mean, he’s in there with other villains, you know, and he’s just like, I gotta be protected to literally stay alive. So when you talk about the Shadow Debt, I’m just so grateful that you guys came up with that verbiage. I never knew what to call that. But like my mom and I, hustling on Crenshaw, selling enchilada plates and, you know, taking, you know, whatever, little money that luckily, we have a big family, nine aunts and uncles to come together to pay for like the lawyer, and we’re literally doing all this so he can live and get out of the system. Because it is a system. It is a business like by design, they want your dad to not be able to pay for stuff. He can’t get certain jobs, so therefore he has to commit another crime, and therefore has to come back. So now we have another man, a black man, hardworking man to work this goddamn field, you know, so to speak metaphorically, you know so wow, I think a lot of people will get free hearing that, because I feel like I didn’t know what to label that, because I still have family that deal with the prison system right now, so I’m having to pay for stuff and do certain stuff, and I’m in a better place now financially, but definitely was not 12 years ago, you know, um, Shadow Debt, wow, okay, wow. It’s unlocking a lot for me. I’m just thinking about so much of what we as black people have had to pay for and do to support our own how much money do people typically owe when they are released from prison or jail?

 

Fred Bell  19:10

The average amount is $13,000 um, and so.

 

Fred Bell  19:14

Um, yeah, just imagine having to pay that after not working while you were incarcerated, and then your loved one has to go get a bail bond, which is, you know, amount of money that can be taken out as a loan to pay for your loved one to get out of prison. And then the terms and the conditions on those loans are very predatory, and they’re meant to target low income families. They’re meant to target black folks. And so that’s another extension of this carceral debt system that is so sinister and that the debt Collective is really fighting to organize against. But one of the things that we’ve come up against is the fact that every single bail bonds you know, establishment has, you know, different contracts. Tax and different terms and conditions. You know, when we’re talking about student loan debt, we’re just talking about primary education, and that’s just one entity that we can kind of target. But you know, as we see in a lot of different debt types, there’s so many different landlords, there’s so many different, you know, court systems, and so when you really dive into this idea of debt, it gets overwhelming, and you’re realizing that, oh, this is all on purpose. They’re purposely making this system complicated in order for folks to get caught up in the red tape, in their bureaucratic mess. And at the end of the day, these states are making money off of it. They’re using these as profit engines in order to make sure they’re balancing their budgets and make sure they’re paying their shareholders. And these are things that folks but that collective is really trying to create this connection between the prison industrial complex, the criminal legal system and how debt impacts us.

 

X Mayo  19:14

My God.God.

 

X Mayo  21:04

Now the thing that you said to me, which is wild, is not just the $13,000 which is an insane amount of money for anyone to pay, but also I’m just thinking about, I someone being in isolation, like, you know, like the covid ran amok on my brain. I was trying my damnedest. Now, mind you, it is no way near in comparison to being incarcerated in jail or in prison, but I’m just saying someone being isolated from the outside world, a man or woman who was not dealing with, you know, the opposite sex, or other people of other gender identities, you were just with this one particular type of group that have all like these same types of characteristics. You know, it’s kind of dog eat dog. There’s so much that people who come out of jail and prison need to do to acclimate themselves back into society. I don’t think rushing to go get a job, like, wait, you have to know how to engage, how to have a conversation. If you are already in a black body and then a big black body and then a big brown or dark skinned black body, you will already be intimidating, right? Like, knowing how to code switch, right, knowing how to talk in a way that’s more flattering, that that will, you know, soften conversations when you talk to people who are not black and like there’s just so many ways in which they have to learn how to look you in the eye and have confidence. What does their diction look like? There’s so many things that people have to learn before we’re rushing to get a job to pay back this debt, and I’m sure that debt has a date. I’m sure there’s a deadline. You said, $100 per month for parole. I just think it just makes me so angry. I’m sorry. It just makes me so angry because I’m just like, I know the work that I had to do with my little brother to acclimate him back into reality, because he went into zoom school around 16, and so like, getting back for him to be social, like, understanding social cues, like I spend so much time with him, I can’t imagine the additional work that somebody coming out of jail, I feel like they need two years just to recover from what, and depending how long they was in there, absolutely, you know, the fact that there is not governmental systems for free that will give the necessary support to our community, because I know black and brown people. Even got to ask you, I know black and brown people are the most affected by this period, but I feel like being able to like learn who they are, who are they post jail? Who were they before jail? Because that’s my brother, like my brother came out, not the person I knew, right? So them having to, you know, he had tattoos. He was from, he was a crit. I was like, wait, who is, you know, like, that is a lot. So I just think it’s such an emphasis on debt. Pay back the money, pay this debt, this and that, and it’s like, wait, but I worked while I was in there. I did what I was supposed to do, like, to come out the debt. The debt is paid.

 

Fred Bell  24:06

Period.

 

X Mayo  24:07

The debt is paid, and I’m not saying that, you know, and anyone who went to jail, like, you know, like, I know certain people have committed crimes and and that’s layered, you know, as far as how we get, you know, graded on a sliding scale versus white people. But I just, I just, it just frustrates me, because no one cares about people. No one gives a fuck about humans. How do they feel in their heart, like the way that people’s eyes just light up when you tell them you believe them, the way that they just can do some of the most amazing, brilliant pieces of art, because someone said, I believe in you, you know, and I’m just like, and we’re not talking about that, sorry, Fred.

 

Fred Bell  24:52

No, I.

 

X Mayo  24:53

Because have so many family in jail, so many family. My cousin was incarcerated for 16 years from 15 to three. 31 and he’s just now acclimating, and I’m just, yeah, this is very home for me.

 

Fred Bell  25:06

I relate so much to this story, because when my dad exited the system, there are so many things that I just took for granted as someone who hasn’t been in a cage for six years. I mean, how dehumanizing.

 

X Mayo  25:19

Yes.

 

Fred Bell  25:20

You know, like you said, I mean, we jumped so fast to, like, getting a job, but my dad didn’t know how to use a cell phone barely he, you know, I got an iPhone thinking, Oh, this is going to be the best advice for him to use so that he can navigate the world. But he doesn’t have a license, he doesn’t have an email, he has not a text. Um, these are basic things that you know is already hard for harder for his generation. But having that time away the six, seven years and not being hip to all the technological advances, these are things you have to know in today’s market. And so, like you said, hours and hours of spending trying to get him acclimated to how to, you know, communicate and look for a job, how to construct his resume. And there’s so many times that, you know, he would call me from someone else’s phone, like, Hey, my friend, my phone’s not working, Fred, like, come over here and help me. And I would drive 20 minutes away leaving my job, and his phone will be in airplane mode. And, you know, it’s like, small things like that. But, that’s the time in the, you know, the money that I’m using to help my dad, which, of course, I’m gonna help him, but these resources aren’t out there for folks exiting the system. There’s not a lot of resources out there. And if there are, you know, in Louisiana, there’s a lot of folks who have records, you know. So obviously it’s gonna be a lot more demand than there is available.

 

X Mayo  26:49

And it’s like, how many men have a friend you know that has the privilege that I can leave my job, that I have a car that I can drive 20 minutes, and I have the capacity to help you absolutely. That’s a lot. So he’s so blessed to have you. Oh, he’s so blessed. Y’all. That was a lot. So I want to take a break and let’s sit with everything we just heard coming up, Fred will offer us some advice on how to support those struggling with this kind of debt and how we can organize. We’ll be right back.

 

X Mayo  29:03

I would love to know if you have any advice for families who are struggling with Shadow Debt or carceral debt.

 

Fred Bell  29:10

Yeah, the first thing I would say is to get educated, really learn the ins and outs of the criminal legal system, especially the ones in your area, in your state, and so because all these. Systems work a little bit differently, but I think the main goal of the criminal legal system and the prison industrial complex is to cage as many folks as possible in order to profit. And so we see that the number of folks that are incarcerated is not directly related to safety indicators or health indicators. We’ve proven that time and time again, and so just becoming aware, you know, listening to podcasts, watching documentaries, reading books about you know, how this system works is a great first step. And then you know, advocacy and policy change is something that is just essential right now, we have seen a lot of cities have this defund the police or defund prisons movement, and we’ve seen that with budget transparency, with cities having more data and more resources available to the community in order to see where their dollars are going, helps civic engagement and folks become more aware of how their community is working.

 

X Mayo  31:15

Because we see them numbers, yes, we see the Google Sheet. We say, what y’all need 4 million for. All y’all do is drive around. You’re doing what? Meanwhile we have food deserts in Compton, right? Like, meanwhile there’s food deserts in Chicago. Like, what are you talking about? Like, why are babies eating honey bun and hot chips? You know, for like, that’s what’s most, that’s what’s cheapest, and that’s available to them. And these single black mothers are just trying to make it work.

 

Fred Bell  31:41

Absolutely.

 

X Mayo  31:42

Right, like, yeah, I know. I think you’re on the yeah, you’re on the money with that, for sure.

 

Fred Bell  31:48

And then we see that we can funnel money from the police into other needs of the community, such as healthcare, such as the school system. Teachers are undervalued and underpaid to social services. We’re going through a huge recession right now. You know, housing market is crazy, gas prices are high, groceries are going up right now, and so we need a break, and at the end of the day, I just feel like we need to organize right now more than ever, especially with this election year. And you know, not to, you know, plug some stuff for the election, but it’s like we have to push our elected officials and folks that are running to really embody the principles that they say they embody. And so, you know, if we’re for some kind of change in the way that our prison system works, that we need to make our voice loud and clear. You know, like the Black Lives Matter movement, but we have a lot more work to do because they’re fighting back.

 

X Mayo  32:50

Fred, I could talk to you all. I feel like we are kindred spirits. Where can we find you and the debt collective on the socials?

 

Fred Bell  32:58

You can find debt collective on Twitter, @strikedebt. You can find debt collective on Instagram, @thedebtcollective, and then you can find me on Instagram as well @Fred.BJR, thanks so much for having me. It’s been a blast being on this podcast.

 

X Mayo  33:18

Oh my god yes. And this is just the beginning of our duo. I think you’re so smart you guys can’t see him, but the skin, hair and teeth, and it’s giving free, and we love to see it.

 

X Mayo  33:30

If you couldn’t tell this conversation with Fred was so liberating for me, my God, I went on a couple of rants, and I apologize, but I don’t get to talk about being affected by the prison system often. Shadow Debt is something I’ve never heard of. Carceral debt, I never thought about it growing up where I come from, it’s just so normal to have this experience that unpacking it in a conversation like this makes you truly realize just how insidious this system is. It’s a business. I’m so grateful to people like Fred and his colleagues at The Debt Collective who are doing what’s necessary to affect change. And just a reminder y’all, The Debt Collective organizes around debt of all kinds. They’ve recently made major moves in canceling student debt, but they are trying to abolish bail debt, housing debt, you name it, you can check out their website at debtcollective.org and use their online tools for submitting things like demand letters to local representatives, toolkits for building your own court defenses, fee waivers and more. Join us here at The Dough in this fight.

 

Fred Bell  33:30

Thank you.

 

CREDITS  34:48

There’s more of The Dough with Lemonada, premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content, like blooper reels from our recording sessions. Subscribe now and Apple podcasts. The Dough is a Lemonada original. I’m your host X Mayo. This series was created in partnership with Flourish Ventures. This series is presented by the Margaret Casey Foundation. Our producers are Claire Jones, Rachel Pilgrim and Tony Williams. Kristen Lepore is our senior producer. Mix and Sound Design by Bobby Woody. Original Music by Pat Mesiti-Miller. Jackie Danziger is our Vice President of narrative content. Executive Producers include me X Mayo, Stephanie Wittels Wachs and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Help others find our show by leaving us a rating and writing a review. You can follow me on IG  @80dollarsandasuitcase and Lemonada @lemonadamedia across all social platforms, follow The Dough wherever you get your podcast or listen ad free on Amazon music with your Prime membership, thanks so much for listening. See you next week, bye.